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Science Fiction » alt.fan.starwars » I STILL DONT KNOW WHO....
| I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #247293] |
Mo, 17 April 2006 08:13 |
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Master Sifo-Dyas is???
Someone mentioned a while back that he was Count Dooku. Is this the
case and if so where is the proof of that?
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #247294 ] |
Mo, 17 April 2006 08:32 |
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_Tony Roma_ spoke thusly on 17/04/2006 2:13 AM:
> Master Sifo-Dyas is???
> Someone mentioned a while back that he was Count Dooku. Is this the
> case and if so where is the proof of that?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.starwars/msg/8f09bd55 b81f0a28
--
usenetsolon [at] gmail.com
Firefox 1.5 is out! <http://www.mozilla.com>
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #247295 ] |
Mo, 17 April 2006 09:10 |
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In article <8cc642dk175det2ladptv7boje7ajngknn [at] 4ax.com>, Tony Roma
<TonyRom [at] msn.com> wrote:
> Master Sifo-Dyas is???
> Someone mentioned a while back that he was Count Dooku. Is this the
> case and if so where is the proof of that?
Sifo-Dyas is NOT Count Dooku, and Count Dooku did not pretend to be
Sifo-Dyas.
Sifo-Dyas was another Jedi Knight and Dooku's friend. Sifo-Dyas foresaw
dangerous times approaching for the Republic and was tricked or talked
into ordering a Clone Army by Palpatine without talking to the Jedi
Council. Palpatine then ordered Count Dooku to kill Sifo-Dyas
(literally creating a dead end should anyone try to follow his trail)
as the final test to becoming a Sith Lord.
This is in the book "Labyrinth of Evil" set just before Episode III.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #247298 ] |
Mo, 17 April 2006 14:56 |
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On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:10:51 +1200, Anybody
<anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>In article <8cc642dk175det2ladptv7boje7ajngknn [at] 4ax.com>, Tony Roma
><TonyRom [at] msn.com> wrote:
>
>> Master Sifo-Dyas is???
>> Someone mentioned a while back that he was Count Dooku. Is this the
>> case and if so where is the proof of that?
>
>Sifo-Dyas is NOT Count Dooku, and Count Dooku did not pretend to be
>Sifo-Dyas.
>
>Sifo-Dyas was another Jedi Knight and Dooku's friend. Sifo-Dyas foresaw
>dangerous times approaching for the Republic and was tricked or talked
>into ordering a Clone Army by Palpatine without talking to the Jedi
>Council. Palpatine then ordered Count Dooku to kill Sifo-Dyas
>(literally creating a dead end should anyone try to follow his trail)
>as the final test to becoming a Sith Lord.
>
>This is in the book "Labyrinth of Evil" set just before Episode III.
Thanks for the info I am going to take a look at that book.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #247302 ] |
Mo, 17 April 2006 22:48 |
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In article <034742h89m7cbnsko4k5snmd091klh3vff [at] 4ax.com>, Tony Roma
<TonyRom [at] msn.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:10:51 +1200, Anybody
> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <8cc642dk175det2ladptv7boje7ajngknn [at] 4ax.com>, Tony Roma
> ><TonyRom [at] msn.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Master Sifo-Dyas is???
> >> Someone mentioned a while back that he was Count Dooku. Is this the
> >> case and if so where is the proof of that?
> >
> >Sifo-Dyas is NOT Count Dooku, and Count Dooku did not pretend to be
> >Sifo-Dyas.
> >
> >Sifo-Dyas was another Jedi Knight and Dooku's friend. Sifo-Dyas foresaw
> >dangerous times approaching for the Republic and was tricked or talked
> >into ordering a Clone Army by Palpatine without talking to the Jedi
> >Council. Palpatine then ordered Count Dooku to kill Sifo-Dyas
> >(literally creating a dead end should anyone try to follow his trail)
> >as the final test to becoming a Sith Lord.
> >
> >This is in the book "Labyrinth of Evil" set just before Episode III.
>
> Thanks for the info I am going to take a look at that book.
There's no real need. I've just told you everything the book tells you
about Sifo-Dyas, and probably using more words than it does. Sifo-Dyas
is very much a non-entity. No doubt he'll get over-blown by fans and
become as big a "mystery" as Boba Fett and eventually be CGI-inserted
into the movies at some stage. :-\
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249226 ] |
Di, 18 April 2006 10:50 |
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I don't see how Lucas could leave such big-ass holes in the movies.
Basically you have to watch a silly cartoon series to fill in the blanks
between episodes I II & III, how does that make sense?
>> Master Sifo-Dyas is???
>> Someone mentioned a while back that he was Count Dooku. Is this the
>> case and if so where is the proof of that?
>
> Sifo-Dyas is NOT Count Dooku, and Count Dooku did not pretend to be
> Sifo-Dyas.
>
> Sifo-Dyas was another Jedi Knight and Dooku's friend. Sifo-Dyas foresaw
> dangerous times approaching for the Republic and was tricked or talked
> into ordering a Clone Army by Palpatine without talking to the Jedi
> Council. Palpatine then ordered Count Dooku to kill Sifo-Dyas
> (literally creating a dead end should anyone try to follow his trail)
> as the final test to becoming a Sith Lord.
>
> This is in the book "Labyrinth of Evil" set just before Episode III.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249231 ] |
Di, 18 April 2006 13:34 |
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Broken Spirit v2.0 wrote:
> I don't see how Lucas could leave such big-ass holes in the movies.
> Basically you have to watch a silly cartoon series to fill in the blanks
> between episodes I II & III, how does that make sense?
It doesn't makes sense, neither does the explanation from LoE.
>>>Master Sifo-Dyas is???
>>>Someone mentioned a while back that he was Count Dooku. Is this the
>>>case and if so where is the proof of that?
>>
>>Sifo-Dyas is NOT Count Dooku, and Count Dooku did not pretend to be
>>Sifo-Dyas.
>>
>>Sifo-Dyas was another Jedi Knight and Dooku's friend. Sifo-Dyas foresaw
>>dangerous times approaching for the Republic and was tricked or talked
>>into ordering a Clone Army by Palpatine without talking to the Jedi
>>Council. Palpatine then ordered Count Dooku to kill Sifo-Dyas
>>(literally creating a dead end should anyone try to follow his trail)
>>as the final test to becoming a Sith Lord.
>>
>>This is in the book "Labyrinth of Evil" set just before Episode III.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249233 ] |
Di, 18 April 2006 22:50 |
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In article <c941g.9478$vy1.5152 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H <H [at] r.c>
wrote:
> Broken Spirit v2.0 wrote:
>
> > I don't see how Lucas could leave such big-ass holes in the movies.
> > Basically you have to watch a silly cartoon series to fill in the blanks
> > between episodes I II & III, how does that make sense?
>
> It doesn't makes sense, neither does the explanation from LoE.
It does all makes sense, at least to anyone with more than one
braincell.
A movie is two hours long, it can't possibly keep going off on some
side-track trying to explain EVERY story within a universe. George
Lucas' movie Saga is the story of Anakin Skywalker, and in THAT story
the explanation of every other tiny detail in the Star Wars universe is
irrelevant ... if you want to know about those OTHER stories you go to
the Expanded Universe (EU) material.
If you're going to say such side-details are "holes" in the Star Wars
movies, then you're extremely thick and / or be massively disappointed
by EVERY movie, TV show, book, etc. ever made since NONE of them
exaplin every tiny detail and side-story.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249234 ] |
Mi, 19 April 2006 00:17 |
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Anybody wrote:
> In article <c941g.9478$vy1.5152 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H <H [at] r.c>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Broken Spirit v2.0 wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I don't see how Lucas could leave such big-ass holes in the movies.
>>>Basically you have to watch a silly cartoon series to fill in the blanks
>>>between episodes I II & III, how does that make sense?
>>
>>It doesn't makes sense, neither does the explanation from LoE.
>
>
> It does all makes sense, at least to anyone with more than one
> braincell.
Why are you insulting me? I never insulted you. Does it excite you to
insult someone you've never met? Do you get a feeling of power that you
can act like a complete prat on Usenet and get away with it?
> A movie is two hours long, it can't possibly keep going off on some
> side-track trying to explain EVERY story within a universe. George
> Lucas' movie Saga is the story of Anakin Skywalker, and in THAT story
> the explanation of every other tiny detail in the Star Wars universe is
> irrelevant ... if you want to know about those OTHER stories you go to
> the Expanded Universe (EU) material.
Actually, the EU explanation for SifoDyas DOESN'T make sense to anyone
with more than one braincell. You are incapable of accepting that,
despite it being patiently explained previously to you.
Listen to me. It was explained quite well in the movie, I don't have a
problem with it at all.
I laugh when people say Star Wars is about Anakin. He's a part of it,
but unfortunately he's mostly sidelined by the other events of the first
trilogy, at least until Palpatine starts working him over in ROTS. The
first trilogy is about Palpatine's rise to power and the fall of the
Jedi and the Republic as much as Anakin, and the second trilogy is very
obviously about Luke's journey.
Anakin barely changes from the beginning of AOTC to the point he becomes
Darth Vader, it's almost not even his story. Stories are about
characters changing from the beginning to the end and the things that
happen to them, help or hinderance, on their journey. In fact, the first
trilogy is probably more about Obiwan ( who grows and develops from
cocky Padawan in TPM to respected Jedi Master by the end of ROTS ) than
Anakin ( who goes from whinging Padawan to whinging Jedi ). Luke's
character journey in the second trilogy is obvious.
> If you're going to say such side-details are "holes" in the Star Wars
> movies, then you're extremely thick and / or be massively disappointed
> by EVERY movie, TV show, book, etc. ever made since NONE of them
> exaplin every tiny detail and side-story.
I never said that, nor was I going to. Movies should either show
everything, or suggest it. We never see Jedi go to the bathroom or
whatever, yet it is easy enough to assume these things happen without
having to see them. The SW movies seem to leave a few gaps that can't be
filled directly from the movies, and do not have obvious suggested
answers ( hence the rabid debates on this forum), but the Sifo-Dyas
thing certainly wasn't one of them. Since you get so upset when anyone
suggests the Star Wars movies are less than perfect, I'll leave it there.
I'm quite happy with the movie explanation. It has no holes, unlike the
explanation from the books.
H.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249235 ] |
Mi, 19 April 2006 03:06 |
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In article <gAd1g.9641$vy1.3055 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H <H [at] r.c>
wrote:
>
> I'm quite happy with the movie explanation. It has no holes, unlike the
> explanation from the books.
The explanation from the movie:
Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Knight who ordered a Clone army
without Jedi Council knowledge. He died around the
same time the army was ordered.
Book explanation:
Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Knight who ordered a Clone army
without Jedi Council knowledge, being manipulated by
Palpatine, because he foresaw danger for the Republic.
He was killed just afterwards by Count Dooku / Darth
Tyrannus.
Hmmm ... not a lot of difference and nothing that suddenly makes these
supposed "holes" that fools complain about. If anything the book
explains more, so there would be more "holes" in the movie version.
> I laugh when people say Star Wars is about Anakin. He's a part of it,
> but unfortunately he's mostly sidelined by the other events of the
> first trilogy, at least until Palpatine starts working him over in ROTS.
The ENTIRE movie Saga IS the story of Anakin Skywalker. The Saga starts
with Anakin being found (it would be pointlessly boring starting with
him being born) and ends when he is redeemed and dies. His story is of
course also intermixed with the story of the Empire - both grow and
die. It also connects with bazillions of other stories within the Star
Wars galaxy.
Anakin wasn't "sidelined by other events". It was those "other events"
that helped push Anakin into turning to the Dark Side, which is why we
see them: the loss of his mother, the loss of Padme, the manipulations
by Palpatine (both directly and via the war), etc.
The who and why of Sifo-Dyas is completely unnecessary to that story,
which is why it was left to the EU.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249237 ] |
Mi, 19 April 2006 03:41 |
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Anybody wrote:
> In article <gAd1g.9641$vy1.3055 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H <H [at] r.c>
> wrote:
>
>>I'm quite happy with the movie explanation. It has no holes, unlike the
>>explanation from the books.
>
>
> The explanation from the movie:
>
> Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Knight who ordered a Clone army
> without Jedi Council knowledge. He died around the
> same time the army was ordered.
No you are wrong here. The movie explanation, via a series of onscreen
clues, is that Dooku used the name of a dead Jedi ( whether he killed
him or it was accidental is irrelevant ) as a cover to order the Clone
Army. Please note, Lucas does not use 20 foot high neon lettering to
spell it out, the audience has to, gasp, think about it but the
inference is obvious. Sadly, too many fans expect hugely convoluted and
highly coincidental explanations for some of these things.
> Book explanation:
>
> Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Knight who ordered a Clone army
> without Jedi Council knowledge, being manipulated by
> Palpatine, because he foresaw danger for the Republic.
> He was killed just afterwards by Count Dooku / Darth
> Tyrannus.
>
> Hmmm ... not a lot of difference and nothing that suddenly makes these
> supposed "holes" that fools complain about. If anything the book
> explains more, so there would be more "holes" in the movie version.
Would you shut up about holes! It is boring, we've heard it all before,
you're like a broken record. I NEVER MENTIONED HOLES in the first post.
Do you honestly think the book explanation makes more sense than the
movie?????? I've asked you this before and you couldn't provide me with
an answer. Either you have no opinion or are incapable of formulating one...
Movie:
Dooku orders clone army under Sidious orders using Sifo Dyas's name.
....or...
Book:
Sifo Dyas orders a clone army because he foresaw some great trouble
coming. He didn't tell anyone, even the Jedi Council. He tells his
friend Dooku who tells Sidious. Sidious decides that this convenient
Clone Army is just the thng he needs, orders Dooku to kill Sifo and find
a template for the clones, because somehow Sifo ordered a clone army
without having a clue who to actually clone them from...
Are you telling me the book makes more sense?
>>I laugh when people say Star Wars is about Anakin. He's a part of it,
>>but unfortunately he's mostly sidelined by the other events of the
>>first trilogy, at least until Palpatine starts working him over in ROTS.
>
>
> The ENTIRE movie Saga IS the story of Anakin Skywalker. The Saga starts
Oh please. The OT is about Luke, irrespective of what Lucas, or you, says.
> Anakin wasn't "sidelined by other events". It was those "other events"
> that helped push Anakin into turning to the Dark Side, which is why we
> see them: the loss of his mother, the loss of Padme, the manipulations
> by Palpatine (both directly and via the war), etc.
The PT movies didn't portray his story well enough for me, perhaps
that's what I meant.
> The who and why of Sifo-Dyas is completely unnecessary to that story,
Exactly.
> which is why it was left to the EU.
....who made a complete hash of it.
H.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249242 ] |
Mi, 19 April 2006 06:32 |
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In article <Czg1g.9735$vy1.6057 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H <H [at] r.c>
wrote:
> Anybody wrote:
>
> > In article <gAd1g.9641$vy1.3055 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H <H [at] r.c>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>I'm quite happy with the movie explanation. It has no holes, unlike the
> >>explanation from the books.
> >
> > The explanation from the movie:
> >
> > Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Knight who ordered a Clone army
> > without Jedi Council knowledge. He died around the
> > same time the army was ordered.
>
> No you are wrong here. The movie explanation, via a series of onscreen
> clues, is that Dooku used the name of a dead Jedi ( whether he killed
> him or it was accidental is irrelevant ) as a cover to order the Clone
> Army. Please note, Lucas does not use 20 foot high neon lettering to
> spell it out, the audience has to, gasp, think about it but the
> inference is obvious. Sadly, too many fans expect hugely convoluted and
> highly coincidental explanations for some of these things.
There is no such "clue" that says Dooku used the name of a dead Jedi.
The old "Dooku pretended to be Sifo-Dyas" idea was one put forward
before the truth was known, but it was only ever guesswork and one of a
few different ones (eg. Palpatine pretending to be Sifo-Dyas, Qui-Gon
being Sifo-Dyas, etc., etc.).
> > Book explanation:
> >
> > Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Knight who ordered a Clone army
> > without Jedi Council knowledge, being manipulated by
> > Palpatine, because he foresaw danger for the Republic.
> > He was killed just afterwards by Count Dooku / Darth
> > Tyrannus.
> >
> > Hmmm ... not a lot of difference and nothing that suddenly makes these
> > supposed "holes" that fools complain about. If anything the book
> > explains more, so there would be more "holes" in the movie version.
>
> Would you shut up about holes! It is boring, we've heard it all before,
> you're like a broken record. I NEVER MENTIONED HOLES in the first post.
Ummm, strange since you actually did type:
"It has no holes, unlike the explanation from the books"
in the first quotation above.
Geez, not only do people not actually read what other people write,
they don't even read what they write themselves. It's no wonder some of
us end up going around and around in circles with the same old
explanation. :-\
> Do you honestly think the book explanation makes more sense than the
> movie?????? I've asked you this before and you couldn't provide me with
> an answer. Either you have no opinion or are incapable of formulating one...
>
> Movie:
> Dooku orders clone army under Sidious orders using Sifo Dyas's name.
>
> ...or...
>
> Book:
> Sifo Dyas orders a clone army because he foresaw some great trouble
> coming. He didn't tell anyone, even the Jedi Council. He tells his
> friend Dooku who tells Sidious. Sidious decides that this convenient
> Clone Army is just the thng he needs, orders Dooku to kill Sifo and find
> a template for the clones, because somehow Sifo ordered a clone army
> without having a clue who to actually clone them from...
>
> Are you telling me the book makes more sense?
As above. The book is THE official answer. Whether you like it or not
is irrelevant, especially since the "Dooku pretended" wasn't even
remotely the proper answer to begin with, just people guessing.
> >>I laugh when people say Star Wars is about Anakin. He's a part of it,
> >>but unfortunately he's mostly sidelined by the other events of the
> >>first trilogy, at least until Palpatine starts working him over in ROTS.
> >
> >
> > The ENTIRE movie Saga IS the story of Anakin Skywalker. The Saga starts
>
> Oh please. The OT is about Luke, irrespective of what Lucas, or you, says.
Ahhh, so Luke was redeemed at the end ... you could have fooled me. :-\
As I said, there are other intermixed stories. I also purposely said,
the ENTIRE SAGA (ie. all six movies) is the story of Anakin Skywalker -
I never even mentioned about spliting them into two trilogies since
they're meant to be viewed as one story in numerical order.
> > Anakin wasn't "sidelined by other events". It was those "other events"
> > that helped push Anakin into turning to the Dark Side, which is why we
> > see them: the loss of his mother, the loss of Padme, the manipulations
> > by Palpatine (both directly and via the war), etc.
>
> The PT movies didn't portray his story well enough for me, perhaps
> that's what I meant.
Portray what?!?!? He went from a nice, helpful little kid, to an angry
adolescent who turned to the Dark Side. There's not a lot more you can
add to that.
> > The who and why of Sifo-Dyas is completely unnecessary to that story,
>
> Exactly.
>
> > which is why it was left to the EU.
>
> ...who made a complete hash of it.
According to you. George Lucas has much more backstory to his
characters than he puts on-screen and the book may easily be using
those ideas ... which makes it even "more official" (if such a thing is
possible).
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249243 ] |
Mi, 19 April 2006 08:31 |
|
Anybody wrote:
>>>The explanation from the movie:
>>>
>>> Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Knight who ordered a Clone army
>>> without Jedi Council knowledge. He died around the
>>> same time the army was ordered.
>>
>>No you are wrong here. The movie explanation, via a series of onscreen
>>clues, is that Dooku used the name of a dead Jedi ( whether he killed
>>him or it was accidental is irrelevant ) as a cover to order the Clone
>>Army. Please note, Lucas does not use 20 foot high neon lettering to
>>spell it out, the audience has to, gasp, think about it but the
>>inference is obvious. Sadly, too many fans expect hugely convoluted and
>>highly coincidental explanations for some of these things.
>
> There is no such "clue" that says Dooku used the name of a dead Jedi.
Watch the films, you obviously haven't yet.
>>>Book explanation:
>>>
>>> Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Knight who ordered a Clone army
>>> without Jedi Council knowledge, being manipulated by
>>> Palpatine, because he foresaw danger for the Republic.
>>> He was killed just afterwards by Count Dooku / Darth
>>> Tyrannus.
>>>
>>>Hmmm ... not a lot of difference and nothing that suddenly makes these
>>>supposed "holes" that fools complain about. If anything the book
>>>explains more, so there would be more "holes" in the movie version.
>>
>>Would you shut up about holes! It is boring, we've heard it all before,
>>you're like a broken record. I NEVER MENTIONED HOLES in the first post.
>
>
> Ummm, strange since you actually did type:
> "It has no holes, unlike the explanation from the books"
> in the first quotation above.
You were complaining about holes in the movie. I said there weren't any,
since suggesting there are this seems to get you very upset. My mistake.
>>Do you honestly think the book explanation makes more sense than the
>>movie?????? I've asked you this before and you couldn't provide me with
>>an answer. Either you have no opinion or are incapable of formulating one...
>>
>>Movie:
>>Dooku orders clone army under Sidious orders using Sifo Dyas's name.
>>
>>...or...
>>
>>Book:
>>Sifo Dyas orders a clone army because he foresaw some great trouble
>>coming. He didn't tell anyone, even the Jedi Council. He tells his
>>friend Dooku who tells Sidious. Sidious decides that this convenient
>>Clone Army is just the thng he needs, orders Dooku to kill Sifo and find
>>a template for the clones, because somehow Sifo ordered a clone army
>>without having a clue who to actually clone them from...
>>
>>Are you telling me the book makes more sense?
>
>
> As above. The book is THE official answer. Whether you like it or not
I don't care what the official answer is, I want to know what you though
was more logical!
> is irrelevant, especially since the "Dooku pretended" wasn't even
> remotely the proper answer to begin with, just people guessing.
Ah. You are incapable of forming an opinion about this. Why didn't you
just say so.
>>>>I laugh when people say Star Wars is about Anakin. He's a part of it,
>>>>but unfortunately he's mostly sidelined by the other events of the
>>>>first trilogy, at least until Palpatine starts working him over in ROTS.
>>>
>>>
>>>The ENTIRE movie Saga IS the story of Anakin Skywalker. The Saga starts
>>
>>Oh please. The OT is about Luke, irrespective of what Lucas, or you, says.
>
>
> Ahhh, so Luke was redeemed at the end ... you could have fooled me. :-\
No, Luke didn't fail like his father did. The second trilogy is Luke's
journey towards becoming a Jedi. Otherwise we would have spent a lot
more screen time with Vader. What makes you think the OT is about Vader?
>>>Anakin wasn't "sidelined by other events". It was those "other events"
>>>that helped push Anakin into turning to the Dark Side, which is why we
>>>see them: the loss of his mother, the loss of Padme, the manipulations
>>>by Palpatine (both directly and via the war), etc.
>>
>>The PT movies didn't portray his story well enough for me, perhaps
>>that's what I meant.
>
>
> Portray what?!?!? He went from a nice, helpful little kid, to an angry
> adolescent who turned to the Dark Side. There's not a lot more you can
> add to that.
Exactly, there is not a lot more you can say, except "two dimensional?"
>>>which is why it was left to the EU.
>>
>>...who made a complete hash of it.
>
>
> According to you. George Lucas has much more backstory to his
> characters than he puts on-screen and the book may easily be using
> those ideas ... which makes it even "more official" (if such a thing is
> possible).
You're guessing. You have NO idea whose ideas were ultimately used in
the book.
It's irrelevant anyway as to which is more official or not. I just want
to know from you which of the two explanations made more sense. You
can't tell me without ranting, so I can only assume you can't form an
opinion about it.
H.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249244 ] |
Mi, 19 April 2006 09:03 |
|
In article <TOk1g.9947$vy1.9251 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H <H [at] r.c>
wrote:
> Anybody wrote:
> >
> > There is no such "clue" that says Dooku used the name of a dead Jedi.
>
> Watch the films, you obviously haven't yet.
Since that's not the official answer there obviously is no such "clue"
in the movie. It's simply something SOME PEOPLE thought was there, but
isn't. Other people thought other ideas were possible answers.
> > Ummm, strange since you actually did type:
> > "It has no holes, unlike the explanation from the books"
> > in the first quotation above.
>
> You were complaining about holes in the movie. I said there weren't any,
> since suggesting there are this seems to get you very upset. My mistake.
I've never complained about holes in the movies. I'm always the one
saying there arent any when others complain about the same old
nonsense.
> >>Are you telling me the book makes more sense?
> >
> > As above. The book is THE official answer. Whether you like it or not
>
> I don't care what the official answer is, I want to know what you though
> was more logical!
What me, you or anyone else personally thinks is completely irrelevant
to what the official answer is. Just like Han shooting first, Jar Jar
Binks, or a million and one other things, it's pointless complaining on
about it since that how George Lucas wants HIS movies to be.
> > Ahhh, so Luke was redeemed at the end ... you could have fooled me. :-\
>
> No, Luke didn't fail like his father did. The second trilogy is Luke's
> journey towards becoming a Jedi. Otherwise we would have spent a lot
> more screen time with Vader. What makes you think the OT is about Vader?
As I said, I didn't split the two trilogies. I said the ENTIRE SAGA was
the story of Anakin Skywalker. If you want to split them then that's
your problem, I never said anything of the kind.
> > Portray what?!?!? He went from a nice, helpful little kid, to an angry
> > adolescent who turned to the Dark Side. There's not a lot more you can
> > add to that.
>
> Exactly, there is not a lot more you can say, except "two dimensional?"
All movies are two-dimensional ... unless you want to wear silly
dual-coloured glasses. ;-)
> > According to you. George Lucas has much more backstory to his
> > characters than he puts on-screen and the book may easily be using
> > those ideas ... which makes it even "more official" (if such a thing is
> > possible).
>
> You're guessing. You have NO idea whose ideas were ultimately used in
> the book.
Ahh, so you're allowed to guess based on some phantom "clue" in the
movie, but I'm not allowed to guess about the book. Right, got it ...
you're a hypercrit who wants it all his own way ... as usual with most
of the human race. :-(
> It's irrelevant anyway as to which is more official or not. I just want
> to know from you which of the two explanations made more sense. You
> can't tell me without ranting, so I can only assume you can't form an
> opinion about it.
As above, personal opinions aren't relevent to answering the question
when someone asks it ... which is all I did. :-\
GAME OVER.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249247 ] |
Mi, 19 April 2006 10:04 |
|
Blah, blah, blah, blah, go shove a carrot in your anus and fart it to a
galaxy far, far away.
> It does all makes sense, at least to anyone with more than one
> braincell.
>
> A movie is two hours long, it can't possibly keep going off on some
> side-track trying to explain EVERY story within a universe. George
> Lucas' movie Saga is the story of Anakin Skywalker, and in THAT story
> the explanation of every other tiny detail in the Star Wars universe is
> irrelevant ... if you want to know about those OTHER stories you go to
> the Expanded Universe (EU) material.
>
> If you're going to say such side-details are "holes" in the Star Wars
> movies, then you're extremely thick and / or be massively disappointed
> by EVERY movie, TV show, book, etc. ever made since NONE of them
> exaplin every tiny detail and side-story.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249258 ] |
Do, 20 April 2006 02:56 |
|
In article <zam1g.5978$Es3.4750 [at] newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Broken Spirit v2.0" <radiohead3 [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
> Blah, blah, blah, blah, go shove a carrot in your anus and fart it to a
> galaxy far, far away.
Ahh, a prime example of the moronic fools that infest the Internet. :-\
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249264 ] |
Do, 20 April 2006 06:49 |
|
On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:32:16 +1200, Anybody
<anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>In article <Czg1g.9735$vy1.6057 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H <H [at] r.c>
>wrote:
>
>> Anybody wrote:
>>
>> > In article <gAd1g.9641$vy1.3055 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H <H [at] r.c>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>I'm quite happy with the movie explanation. It has no holes, unlike the
>> >>explanation from the books.
>> >
>> > The explanation from the movie:
>> >
>> > Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Knight who ordered a Clone army
>> > without Jedi Council knowledge. He died around the
>> > same time the army was ordered.
>>
>> No you are wrong here. The movie explanation, via a series of onscreen
>> clues, is that Dooku used the name of a dead Jedi ( whether he killed
>> him or it was accidental is irrelevant ) as a cover to order the Clone
>> Army. Please note, Lucas does not use 20 foot high neon lettering to
>> spell it out, the audience has to, gasp, think about it but the
>> inference is obvious. Sadly, too many fans expect hugely convoluted and
>> highly coincidental explanations for some of these things.
>
>There is no such "clue" that says Dooku used the name of a dead Jedi.
>The old "Dooku pretended to be Sifo-Dyas" idea was one put forward
>before the truth was known, but it was only ever guesswork and one of a
>few different ones (eg. Palpatine pretending to be Sifo-Dyas, Qui-Gon
>being Sifo-Dyas, etc., etc.).
>
>
I think the problem here is people are applying logic to a badly
drafted idea. It would make more sense that Sifo-Dyas was
impersonated by Sidious/Palpatine or Dooku/Tyranus than what was
presented to us.
Somewhere in the editing GL added Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones over
what was supposed to be Sidious in the script. It probably was a
reasonable thing to change but not as well executed as it should have
been.
>
>
>> > Book explanation:
>> >
>> > Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Knight who ordered a Clone army
>> > without Jedi Council knowledge, being manipulated by
>> > Palpatine, because he foresaw danger for the Republic.
>> > He was killed just afterwards by Count Dooku / Darth
>> > Tyrannus.
>> >
You left out the fact that Yoda confirmed that it was Syfo-Dyas who
placed the order after speaking with the Cloners and viewing their
records.
--
John Duncan Yoyo
------------------------------o)
Brought to you by the Binks for Senate campaign comittee.
Coruscant is far, far away from wesa on Naboo.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249266 ] |
Do, 20 April 2006 08:09 |
|
In article <6t3e42d2oihlofjbr784sbfqi4uik8j76p [at] 4ax.com>, John Duncan
Yoyo <john-duncan-yoyo [at] cox.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:32:16 +1200, Anybody
> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
> >
> >There is no such "clue" that says Dooku used the name of a dead Jedi.
> >The old "Dooku pretended to be Sifo-Dyas" idea was one put forward
> >before the truth was known, but it was only ever guesswork and one of a
> >few different ones (eg. Palpatine pretending to be Sifo-Dyas, Qui-Gon
> >being Sifo-Dyas, etc., etc.).
>
> I think the problem here is people are applying logic to a badly
> drafted idea. It would make more sense that Sifo-Dyas was
> impersonated by Sidious/Palpatine or Dooku/Tyranus than what was
> presented to us.
>
> Somewhere in the editing GL added Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones over
> what was supposed to be Sidious in the script. It probably was a
> reasonable thing to change but not as well executed as it should have
> been.
I don't recall anything in the movies that remotely says Dooku
pretended to be Sifo-Dyas. People are simply guessing or assuming from
what little information there was.
Realistically it makes no more sense for that to have happened than for
the real Sifo-Dyas to order the Clone army himself - Palpatine is VERY
persuasive.
In fact the official answer makes more sense since with Sifo-Dyas
killed off there is literally a dead end to the trail. If Dooku had
pretended to be Sifo-Dyas then Obi-Wan (or Yoda as you say below) could
simply get a description or hologram from the Kaminoans, instantly know
who it really was and then proceed to track him down. The same goes for
Palpatine and we all know Sidious doesn't do his own dirty work.
> >> > Book explanation:
> >> >
> >> > Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Knight who ordered a Clone army
> >> > without Jedi Council knowledge, being manipulated by
> >> > Palpatine, because he foresaw danger for the Republic.
> >> > He was killed just afterwards by Count Dooku / Darth
> >> > Tyrannus.
>
> You left out the fact that Yoda confirmed that it was Syfo-Dyas who
> placed the order after speaking with the Cloners and viewing their
> records.
I haven't actually read the book, I was just going with what others
have said, but thanks for the update. :-)
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249270 ] |
Do, 20 April 2006 17:49 |
|
Star wars nerds you got to love em ........
fact: I talked to George yesterday and he assured me that the OT is
about Luke becoming a Jedi.
If you don't believe me give him a call .....
Fact: there are plot holes George apologized to me, he told me that hi
never intended to make a second trilogy ....
$$$$$ let him to the decision that a second one might be a good idea
hence the plot holes
Hope this helps your dark/ light internet conflict brave Jedi knights.
Jedi Sifo-Dyas
PS that whole clone ordering business was a misunderstanding, I just
wanted a spicy pizza ...
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249275 ] |
Do, 20 April 2006 22:54 |
|
In article <1145548163.103102.165960 [at] z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
jwouter [at] gmail.com wrote:
> Star wars nerds you got to love em ........
> fact: I talked to George yesterday and he assured me that the OT is
> about Luke becoming a Jedi.
> If you don't believe me give him a call .....
>
> Fact: there are plot holes George apologized to me, he told me that hi
> never intended to make a second trilogy ....
> $$$$$ let him to the decision that a second one might be a good idea
> hence the plot holes
>
> Hope this helps your dark/ light internet conflict brave Jedi knights.
>
> Jedi Sifo-Dyas
>
> PS that whole clone ordering business was a misunderstanding, I just
> wanted a spicy pizza ...
And here we see a prime example of the idiot brigade who THINK they're
being funny, when in fact they're simply being pathetic. Unfortunately
the Internet is infested which such idiots. :-\
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249283 ] |
Fr, 21 April 2006 17:37 |
|
On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:09:25 +1200, Anybody
<anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>In article <6t3e42d2oihlofjbr784sbfqi4uik8j76p [at] 4ax.com>, John Duncan
>Yoyo <john-duncan-yoyo [at] cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:32:16 +1200, Anybody
>> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >There is no such "clue" that says Dooku used the name of a dead Jedi.
>> >The old "Dooku pretended to be Sifo-Dyas" idea was one put forward
>> >before the truth was known, but it was only ever guesswork and one of a
>> >few different ones (eg. Palpatine pretending to be Sifo-Dyas, Qui-Gon
>> >being Sifo-Dyas, etc., etc.).
>>
>> I think the problem here is people are applying logic to a badly
>> drafted idea. It would make more sense that Sifo-Dyas was
>> impersonated by Sidious/Palpatine or Dooku/Tyranus than what was
>> presented to us.
>>
>> Somewhere in the editing GL added Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones over
>> what was supposed to be Sidious in the script. It probably was a
>> reasonable thing to change but not as well executed as it should have
>> been.
>
>I don't recall anything in the movies that remotely says Dooku
>pretended to be Sifo-Dyas. People are simply guessing or assuming from
>what little information there was.
The original script was something like Sidio-yas. It would have been
clear. I didn't say that was what or wasn't there. I was saying it
would have been better if it was an imposter.
Dooku had clear contact with the cloners when he brought Jango Fett
into to donate tissue.
>
>Realistically it makes no more sense for that to have happened than for
>the real Sifo-Dyas to order the Clone army himself - Palpatine is VERY
>persuasive.
It is just a bigger jump. The only real reason to do it was to hint
that Palpatine had manipulated other Jedi into doing things contrary
to the council's will.
Palpatine would need to have arranged payments somehow since this was
a ten year project. Easy enough to hide in the bureaucracy.
>
>In fact the official answer makes more sense since with Sifo-Dyas
>killed off there is literally a dead end to the trail. If Dooku had
>pretended to be Sifo-Dyas then Obi-Wan (or Yoda as you say below) could
>simply get a description or hologram from the Kaminoans, instantly know
>who it really was and then proceed to track him down. The same goes for
>Palpatine and we all know Sidious doesn't do his own dirty work.
>
Not often anyway.
>> >> > Book explanation:
>> >> >
>> >> > Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Knight who ordered a Clone army
>> >> > without Jedi Council knowledge, being manipulated by
>> >> > Palpatine, because he foresaw danger for the Republic.
>> >> > He was killed just afterwards by Count Dooku / Darth
>> >> > Tyrannus.
>>
>> You left out the fact that Yoda confirmed that it was Syfo-Dyas who
>> placed the order after speaking with the Cloners and viewing their
>> records.
>
>I haven't actually read the book, I was just going with what others
>have said, but thanks for the update. :-)
This was posted in a thread one of the previous times you were having
this argument.
--
John Duncan Yoyo
------------------------------o)
Brought to you by the Binks for Senate campaign comittee.
Coruscant is far, far away from wesa on Naboo.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249291 ] |
Fr, 21 April 2006 23:06 |
|
"Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
news:190420060850224847%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> In article <c941g.9478$vy1.5152 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H <H [at] r.c>
> wrote:
>
>> Broken Spirit v2.0 wrote:
>>
>> > I don't see how Lucas could leave such big-ass holes in the movies.
>> > Basically you have to watch a silly cartoon series to fill in the
>> > blanks
>> > between episodes I II & III, how does that make sense?
>>
> A movie is two hours long, it can't possibly keep going off on some
> side-track trying to explain EVERY story within a universe. George
> Lucas' movie Saga is the story of Anakin Skywalker, and in THAT story
> the explanation of every other tiny detail in the Star Wars universe is
> irrelevant ... if you want to know about those OTHER stories you go to
> the Expanded Universe (EU) material.
The novelizations of the movies explain a lot more than what is in the
films. See Brett's book review from earlier in the week for evidence of
that. I can remember back in 1999, after my wife went to see TPM. She
couldn't understand why this or that happened and thought that the movie was
really vague. Each time, I explained why something had happened, she would
ask me how I knew. I told her that it was explained in the novel. I think
this may be one of the problems casual fans (and even some fans who are just
non-readers) have with the PT. Lucas cuts scenes for the sake of moving the
plotline along, but sometimes it really does make for plotholes from the
movie-goers point of view. I have no doubt that most of the things Brett
mentioned as being different between the film and the movie were actually in
the original scrip or summary given to the author. I don't think he would
have (or would have even been allowed to) take so many liberties with the
plot.
--
--K
http://afssmugglersalliance.tripod.com/afs_faq.html
Current Action Figure Count: 1341
Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249292 ] |
Fr, 21 April 2006 23:11 |
|
"H" <H [at] r.c> wrote in message
news:TOk1g.9947$vy1.9251 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Anybody wrote:
>
>>>>The ENTIRE movie Saga IS the story of Anakin Skywalker. The Saga starts
>>>
>>>Oh please. The OT is about Luke, irrespective of what Lucas, or you,
>>>says.
>>
>>
>> Ahhh, so Luke was redeemed at the end ... you could have fooled me. :-\
>
> No, Luke didn't fail like his father did. The second trilogy is Luke's
> journey towards becoming a Jedi. Otherwise we would have spent a lot more
> screen time with Vader. What makes you think the OT is about Vader?
The story arc of the PT is the fall of the Republic and of the Jedi. The
story arc of the OT is Luke's journey of discovery. The story arc of the
Saga as a whole is the fall and redemption of Anakin. Your two opinions are
not mutually exclusive.
--
--K
http://afssmugglersalliance.tripod.com/afs_faq.html
Current Action Figure Count: 1341
Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249293 ] |
Fr, 21 April 2006 23:12 |
|
"Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
news:190420061903317699%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> In article <TOk1g.9947$vy1.9251 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H <H [at] r.c>
> wrote:
> As I said, I didn't split the two trilogies. I said the ENTIRE SAGA was
> the story of Anakin Skywalker. If you want to split them then that's
> your problem, I never said anything of the kind.
heheh
I swear I didn't read your post before I wrote mine.
--
--K
http://afssmugglersalliance.tripod.com/afs_faq.html
Current Action Figure Count: 1341
Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249305 ] |
Sa, 22 April 2006 03:13 |
|
In article <67uh42dq98opkojaf84s8amdt30ddk7sen [at] 4ax.com>, John Duncan
Yoyo <john-duncan-yoyo [at] cox.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:09:25 +1200, Anybody
> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> You left out the fact that Yoda confirmed that it was Syfo-Dyas who
> >> placed the order after speaking with the Cloners and viewing their
> >> records.
> >
> >I haven't actually read the book, I was just going with what others
> >have said, but thanks for the update. :-)
>
> This was posted in a thread one of the previous times you were having
> this argument.
I did vaguely recall it when reading your additional information, but
not at the time of writing my original message. It's now securely
locked in my memory valut. ;-)
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249316 ] |
Sa, 22 April 2006 14:59 |
|
I may be a little late for this party, but...
"I don't recall anything in the movies that remotely says Dooku
pretended to be Sifo Dyas."
Not the oft mentioned "twenty foot neon letters", but here you go:
In AOTC we discover the person that supposedly ordered the clone army,
Sifo Dyas, is dead and has been for the entire duration of the project.
Then, we discover that Jango Fett has never heard of Sifo Dyas, as he
was recruited by a man named Tyranus (aka: Dooku). Since it's not
unreasonable to expect the indivdual ordering the army would also
suppliy the genetic template, the inference to be made is that Dooku
ordered the army using Sifo Dyas' name.
Not a plot hole by any stetch of the imagination, but for those so thick
that they can't see it from JUST the movie, there's always the
convoluted and utterly moronic explanatkion from the EU ("Labrynth of
Evil").
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249322 ] |
So, 23 April 2006 01:50 |
|
Michael Chubb wrote:
> I may be a little late for this party, but...
>
> "I don't recall anything in the movies that remotely says Dooku
> pretended to be Sifo Dyas."
>
> Not the oft mentioned "twenty foot neon letters", but here you go:
>
> In AOTC we discover the person that supposedly ordered the clone army,
> Sifo Dyas, is dead and has been for the entire duration of the project.
> Then, we discover that Jango Fett has never heard of Sifo Dyas, as he
> was recruited by a man named Tyranus (aka: Dooku). Since it's not
> unreasonable to expect the indivdual ordering the army would also
> suppliy the genetic template, the inference to be made is that Dooku
> ordered the army using Sifo Dyas' name.
It's also not unreasonable to expect that the template would be
delivered _after_ the conclusion of negotiations to agree on a skill
set, size, price, and delivery date for the army. In fact its very
unlikely that the Kaminoans run a retail outlet where you can place
your order, drop off your template, and make payment in under 30
minutes.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249330 ] |
So, 23 April 2006 15:10 |
|
"It's also not unreasonable to expect that the template would be
delivered _after_ the conclusion of negotiations... (etc)"
And that, of course. is definitive proof... Not.
It's a statement that's true enough, but only in light of the
information in "LofE". Based on the film ALONE, the simplest possible
solution is still that Dooku ordered the clone army posing as Sifo Dyas.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249331 ] |
So, 23 April 2006 16:07 |
|
Michael Chubb wrote:
> "It's also not unreasonable to expect that the template would be
> delivered _after_ the conclusion of negotiations... (etc)"
>
> And that, of course. is definitive proof... Not.
>
> It's a statement that's true enough, but only in light of the
> information in "LofE". Based on the film ALONE, the simplest possible
> solution is still that Dooku ordered the clone army posing as Sifo Dyas.
And that, of course. is definitive proof... Not.
Based on the film ALONE, it is entirely possible to suppose that the
template was provided after. There is nothing to suggest otherwise -
except your imagination.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249333 ] |
So, 23 April 2006 17:09 |
|
Darth Mura wrote:
> Michael Chubb wrote:
>
>>I may be a little late for this party, but...
>>
>>"I don't recall anything in the movies that remotely says Dooku
>>pretended to be Sifo Dyas."
>>
>>Not the oft mentioned "twenty foot neon letters", but here you go:
>>
>>In AOTC we discover the person that supposedly ordered the clone army,
>>Sifo Dyas, is dead and has been for the entire duration of the project.
>>Then, we discover that Jango Fett has never heard of Sifo Dyas, as he
>>was recruited by a man named Tyranus (aka: Dooku). Since it's not
>>unreasonable to expect the indivdual ordering the army would also
>>suppliy the genetic template, the inference to be made is that Dooku
>>ordered the army using Sifo Dyas' name.
>
>
> It's also not unreasonable to expect that the template would be
> delivered _after_ the conclusion of negotiations to agree on a skill
> set, size, price, and delivery date for the army. In fact its very
> unlikely that the Kaminoans run a retail outlet where you can place
> your order, drop off your template, and make payment in under 30
> minutes.
Actually it would be quite unreasonable to assume this. The Kaminoans
aren't going to start a million+ clones without checking the original
template for genetic defects and overall suitability.
H.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249342 ] |
Mo, 24 April 2006 00:22 |
|
H wrote:
> Darth Mura wrote:
> > Michael Chubb wrote:
> >
> >>I may be a little late for this party, but...
> >>
> >>"I don't recall anything in the movies that remotely says Dooku
> >>pretended to be Sifo Dyas."
> >>
> >>Not the oft mentioned "twenty foot neon letters", but here you go:
> >>
> >>In AOTC we discover the person that supposedly ordered the clone army,
> >>Sifo Dyas, is dead and has been for the entire duration of the project.
> >>Then, we discover that Jango Fett has never heard of Sifo Dyas, as he
> >>was recruited by a man named Tyranus (aka: Dooku). Since it's not
> >>unreasonable to expect the indivdual ordering the army would also
> >>suppliy the genetic template, the inference to be made is that Dooku
> >>ordered the army using Sifo Dyas' name.
> >
> >
> > It's also not unreasonable to expect that the template would be
> > delivered _after_ the conclusion of negotiations to agree on a skill
> > set, size, price, and delivery date for the army. In fact its very
> > unlikely that the Kaminoans run a retail outlet where you can place
> > your order, drop off your template, and make payment in under 30
> > minutes.
>
> Actually it would be quite unreasonable to assume this. The Kaminoans
> aren't going to start a million+ clones without checking the original
> template for genetic defects and overall suitability.
>
> H.
Of course they're going to check. And if the candidate template wasn't
sufficient, then they'd get another one. The whole project didn't
hinge on the suitability of one donor. Which again suggests that the
process of ordering and paying for a clone army is something that would
be done in stages, not a 15-minute drive-thru window.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249345 ] |
Mo, 24 April 2006 01:11 |
|
Darth Mura wrote:
> H wrote:
>
>>Darth Mura wrote:
>>
>>>Michael Chubb wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I may be a little late for this party, but...
>>>>
>>>>"I don't recall anything in the movies that remotely says Dooku
>>>>pretended to be Sifo Dyas."
>>>>
>>>>Not the oft mentioned "twenty foot neon letters", but here you go:
>>>>
>>>>In AOTC we discover the person that supposedly ordered the clone army,
>>>>Sifo Dyas, is dead and has been for the entire duration of the project.
>>>>Then, we discover that Jango Fett has never heard of Sifo Dyas, as he
>>>>was recruited by a man named Tyranus (aka: Dooku). Since it's not
>>>>unreasonable to expect the indivdual ordering the army would also
>>>>suppliy the genetic template, the inference to be made is that Dooku
>>>>ordered the army using Sifo Dyas' name.
>>>
>>>
>>>It's also not unreasonable to expect that the template would be
>>>delivered _after_ the conclusion of negotiations to agree on a skill
>>>set, size, price, and delivery date for the army. In fact its very
>>>unlikely that the Kaminoans run a retail outlet where you can place
>>>your order, drop off your template, and make payment in under 30
>>>minutes.
>>
>>Actually it would be quite unreasonable to assume this. The Kaminoans
>>aren't going to start a million+ clones without checking the original
>>template for genetic defects and overall suitability.
>>
>>H.
>
>
> Of course they're going to check. And if the candidate template wasn't
> sufficient, then they'd get another one. The whole project didn't
Most large scale projects of any kind reject any components they find
unsuitable, it's reasonable to expect that the Kaminoans would too.
> hinge on the suitability of one donor. Which again suggests that the
> process of ordering and paying for a clone army is something that would
> be done in stages, not a 15-minute drive-thru window.
Absolutely, I agree, it's not a 'Here's your order of Clones and do you
want fries with that?'
H.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249346 ] |
Mo, 24 April 2006 01:39 |
|
H wrote:
> Darth Mura wrote:
> > H wrote:
> >
> >>Darth Mura wrote:
> >>
> >>>Michael Chubb wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I may be a little late for this party, but...
> >>>>
> >>>>"I don't recall anything in the movies that remotely says Dooku
> >>>>pretended to be Sifo Dyas."
> >>>>
> >>>>Not the oft mentioned "twenty foot neon letters", but here you go:
> >>>>
> >>>>In AOTC we discover the person that supposedly ordered the clone army,
> >>>>Sifo Dyas, is dead and has been for the entire duration of the project.
> >>>>Then, we discover that Jango Fett has never heard of Sifo Dyas, as he
> >>>>was recruited by a man named Tyranus (aka: Dooku). Since it's not
> >>>>unreasonable to expect the indivdual ordering the army would also
> >>>>suppliy the genetic template, the inference to be made is that Dooku
> >>>>ordered the army using Sifo Dyas' name.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>It's also not unreasonable to expect that the template would be
> >>>delivered _after_ the conclusion of negotiations to agree on a skill
> >>>set, size, price, and delivery date for the army. In fact its very
> >>>unlikely that the Kaminoans run a retail outlet where you can place
> >>>your order, drop off your template, and make payment in under 30
> >>>minutes.
> >>
> >>Actually it would be quite unreasonable to assume this. The Kaminoans
> >>aren't going to start a million+ clones without checking the original
> >>template for genetic defects and overall suitability.
> >>
> >>H.
> >
> >
> > Of course they're going to check. And if the candidate template wasn't
> > sufficient, then they'd get another one. The whole project didn't
>
> Most large scale projects of any kind reject any components they find
> unsuitable, it's reasonable to expect that the Kaminoans would too.
>
> > hinge on the suitability of one donor. Which again suggests that the
> > process of ordering and paying for a clone army is something that would
> > be done in stages, not a 15-minute drive-thru window.
>
> Absolutely, I agree, it's not a 'Here's your order of Clones and do you
> want fries with that?'
>
> H.
In your first message on this topic you replied to my message with,
"Actually it would be quite unreasonable to assume this." I thought
you were disagreeing with me. Are you instead disagreeing with Mr
Chubb, perhaps?
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249348 ] |
Mo, 24 April 2006 02:44 |
|
> In AOTC we discover the person that supposedly ordered the clone army,
> Sifo Dyas, is dead and has been for the entire duration of the project.
> Then, we discover that Jango Fett has never heard of Sifo Dyas, as he
> was recruited by a man named Tyranus (aka: Dooku). Since it's not
> unreasonable to expect the indivdual ordering the army would also
> suppliy the genetic template, the inference to be made is that Dooku
> ordered the army using Sifo Dyas' name.
Except that that's simply jumping to one conclusion out of many
possibilities.
The Kaminoans happily accepted that Obi-Wan was there to check on the
project, so it's not a great leap of imagination that they'd also
hapily accept another apparent Jedi (Count Dooku) turning up with the
original to make the clones from.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249350 ] |
Mo, 24 April 2006 03:04 |
|
Darth Mura wrote:
> H wrote:
>
>>Darth Mura wrote:
>>
>>>H wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Darth Mura wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Michael Chubb wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I may be a little late for this party, but...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"I don't recall anything in the movies that remotely says Dooku
>>>>>>pretended to be Sifo Dyas."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Not the oft mentioned "twenty foot neon letters", but here you go:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In AOTC we discover the person that supposedly ordered the clone army,
>>>>>>Sifo Dyas, is dead and has been for the entire duration of the project.
>>>>>>Then, we discover that Jango Fett has never heard of Sifo Dyas, as he
>>>>>>was recruited by a man named Tyranus (aka: Dooku). Since it's not
>>>>>>unreasonable to expect the indivdual ordering the army would also
>>>>>>suppliy the genetic template, the inference to be made is that Dooku
>>>>>>ordered the army using Sifo Dyas' name.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>It's also not unreasonable to expect that the template would be
>>>>>delivered _after_ the conclusion of negotiations to agree on a skill
>>>>>set, size, price, and delivery date for the army. In fact its very
>>>>>unlikely that the Kaminoans run a retail outlet where you can place
>>>>>your order, drop off your template, and make payment in under 30
>>>>>minutes.
>>>>
>>>>Actually it would be quite unreasonable to assume this. The Kaminoans
>>>>aren't going to start a million+ clones without checking the original
>>>>template for genetic defects and overall suitability.
>>>>
>>>>H.
>>>
>>>
>>>Of course they're going to check. And if the candidate template wasn't
>>>sufficient, then they'd get another one. The whole project didn't
>>
>>Most large scale projects of any kind reject any components they find
>>unsuitable, it's reasonable to expect that the Kaminoans would too.
>>
>>
>>>hinge on the suitability of one donor. Which again suggests that the
>>>process of ordering and paying for a clone army is something that would
>>>be done in stages, not a 15-minute drive-thru window.
>>
>>Absolutely, I agree, it's not a 'Here's your order of Clones and do you
>>want fries with that?'
>>
>>H.
>
>
> In your first message on this topic you replied to my message with,
> "Actually it would be quite unreasonable to assume this." I thought
> you were disagreeing with me. Are you instead disagreeing with Mr
> Chubb, perhaps?
>
I was disagreeing with you on another matter, I happen to agree with you
on this one, after you expanded your arguement.
H.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249351 ] |
Mo, 24 April 2006 03:12 |
|
Anybody wrote:
>>In AOTC we discover the person that supposedly ordered the clone army,
>>Sifo Dyas, is dead and has been for the entire duration of the project.
>>Then, we discover that Jango Fett has never heard of Sifo Dyas, as he
>>was recruited by a man named Tyranus (aka: Dooku). Since it's not
>>unreasonable to expect the indivdual ordering the army would also
>>suppliy the genetic template, the inference to be made is that Dooku
>>ordered the army using Sifo Dyas' name.
>
>
> Except that that's simply jumping to one conclusion out of many
> possibilities.
The inference is obvious, you should be happy that we don't need
everything spelled out in twenty foot high neon letters this time. :)
> The Kaminoans happily accepted that Obi-Wan was there to check on the
> project, so it's not a great leap of imagination that they'd also
> hapily accept another apparent Jedi (Count Dooku) turning up with the
> original to make the clones from.
Actually, I thought of a much neater explanation, I'm surprised you
didn't come up with it.
Sifo Dyas Sith name was Darth Tyranus, which Dooku inherited after Sifo
Dyas died.
SD orders the clones and deletes Council archives ( using his Jedi name
) and finds the template ( using his Sith name ).
Blurg. Still ridiculous. :)
H.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249353 ] |
Mo, 24 April 2006 04:53 |
|
"Based on the film ALONE, it is entirely possible to suppose that the
template was provided after."
AS possible as it is to suppose it was provided at the time of order?
To parallel the fast food theory, suppose you went to a copy center (a
better comparison to the cloners. I'd think) and said: "I'd like a
hundred thousand copies."
"Of what?"
"Umm, let me get back to you on that."
Is it unreasonable that someone who wanted a clone army might FIRST find
a suitable template, and THEN contact the cloners? It would be the
prudent thing to do, since the search for a suitable template could
delay the project indefintely.
And what place would the Kaminoans have in rejecting a supplied template
anyway? Give 'em the template, the specifications for genetic
modification, and the money, and they'll do what they do. If there are
any problems with the template, they can correct them in the process of
the genetic modification.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249358 ] |
Mo, 24 April 2006 06:28 |
|
In article <bCV2g.14056$vy1.12110 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H
<H [at] r.c> wrote:
> Anybody wrote:
>
> >>In AOTC we discover the person that supposedly ordered the clone army,
> >>Sifo Dyas, is dead and has been for the entire duration of the project.
> >>Then, we discover that Jango Fett has never heard of Sifo Dyas, as he
> >>was recruited by a man named Tyranus (aka: Dooku). Since it's not
> >>unreasonable to expect the indivdual ordering the army would also
> >>suppliy the genetic template, the inference to be made is that Dooku
> >>ordered the army using Sifo Dyas' name.
> >
> >
> > Except that that's simply jumping to one conclusion out of many
> > possibilities.
>
> The inference is obvious, you should be happy that we don't need
> everything spelled out in twenty foot high neon letters this time. :)
There's no problem with people using their brains to think up possible
solutions, but sitting there claiming it's THE / only solution is
patently ridiculous, and even verges on the insane when an official
answer is actually available.
> > The Kaminoans happily accepted that Obi-Wan was there to check on the
> > project, so it's not a great leap of imagination that they'd also
> > hapily accept another apparent Jedi (Count Dooku) turning up with the
> > original to make the clones from.
>
> Actually, I thought of a much neater explanation, I'm surprised you
> didn't come up with it.
>
> Sifo Dyas Sith name was Darth Tyranus, which Dooku inherited after Sifo
> Dyas died.
>
> SD orders the clones and deletes Council archives ( using his Jedi name
> ) and finds the template ( using his Sith name ).
>
> Blurg. Still ridiculous. :)
As far as we know, Sith Lords are given unique names. We also know
(from the EU) that the real Dooku deleted the records in the Jedi
Archives.
As usual, the official answer makes sense. Some people just want to
complicate things and come up with strange conspiracy theories. :-\
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249364 ] |
Mo, 24 April 2006 07:00 |
|
Anybody wrote:
> In article <bCV2g.14056$vy1.12110 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, H
> <H [at] r.c> wrote:
>
>
>>Anybody wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>In AOTC we discover the person that supposedly ordered the clone army,
>>>>Sifo Dyas, is dead and has been for the entire duration of the project.
>>>>Then, we discover that Jango Fett has never heard of Sifo Dyas, as he
>>>>was recruited by a man named Tyranus (aka: Dooku). Since it's not
>>>>unreasonable to expect the indivdual ordering the army would also
>>>>suppliy the genetic template, the inference to be made is that Dooku
>>>>ordered the army using Sifo Dyas' name.
>>>
>>>
>>>Except that that's simply jumping to one conclusion out of many
>>>possibilities.
>>
>>The inference is obvious, you should be happy that we don't need
>>everything spelled out in twenty foot high neon letters this time. :)
>
>
> There's no problem with people using their brains to think up possible
> solutions, but sitting there claiming it's THE / only solution is
> patently ridiculous, and even verges on the insane when an official
> answer is actually available.
No one has claimed it was THE solution, only that the LoE explanation
was convoluted and ridiculous.
Jar Jar Binks was ridiculous, but saying that doesn't make him suddenly
disappear. Unfortunately. :)
H.
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| Re: I STILL DONT KNOW WHO.... [message #249371 ] |
Mo, 24 April 2006 10:18 |
|
Michael Chubb wrote:
> To parallel the fast food theory, suppose you went to a copy center (a
> better comparison to the cloners. I'd think) and said: "I'd like a
> hundred thousand copies."
>
> "Of what?"
And here's where the analogy is particularly apt. You can make a
photocopy in seconds, but a clone takes a few years longer.
> Is it unreasonable that someone who wanted a clone army might FIRST find
> a suitable template, and THEN contact the cloners? It would be the
> prudent thing to do . . .
I would first want to make sure the cloners had the proper facilities,
the requisite experience, the time to put my project on their schedule,
and could provide their services at a cost that fit my budget. I might
also want advice from the Kaminoans, since they are the experts at
cloning, about what kind of template might work best for my needs, or
what kind of donor might not be suitable.
> And what place would the Kaminoans have in rejecting a supplied template
> anyway? Give 'em the template, the specifications for genetic
> modification, and the money, and they'll do what they do. If there are
> any problems with the template, they can correct them in the process of
> the genetic modification.
If that's true, then there is no problem in waiting to the last moment
to choose a donor, is there? If the template could be modified as
needed, then any old soldier would do, no>
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