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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown)
Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245607] Do, 06 April 2006 19:09
eggplant107  
> In fact, if whatever happened that night was NOT
> part of DD's plan, then she has made DD into a fool

So you think it was part of Dumbledore's plan to let a band of Death
Eaters and a murderous werewolf who likes to attack kids break into a
castle full of children while he was away and unable to defend it.
Well..... we know with certainty that Dumbledore has made some blunders
in his life, some of them quite serious, but he's never done anything
that idiotic.

> whose ignorance got himself killed.

I believe Dumbledore was ignorant about Snape's Unbreakable Vow but
ignorance is not a crime; however if he did know about that vow for
nearly a year and still trusted Snape then he's criminally stupid.

> If it was part of an overall plan drawn up by DD,
> then it [Snape] is forgiveable.

Not by me! The only thing that could make me forgive Snape is if it
turns out that Dumbledore is not really dead, and then I couldn't
forgive JKR. And after nearly a year of reading theories trying to
explain why the the good guys should think it was a good idea for Snape
to murder Dumbledore that evil night I have not found one that makes
the tiniest particle of sense. Not one. Face it, Snape is evil; it
might have been an interesting plot line if Snape turned into a good
guy but JKR decided to go in another direction and it's too late for
her to back out now.

> the vow had nothing to do with sneaking death eaters into the castle

Of course it did! Snape vowed to help Draco with his plan and if Snape
was a good guy and he didn't even know what he was vowing to do under
penalty of death then he's not just stupid he's Homer Simpson
stupid. "I made a vow to do what.....DOOO!"

Eggplant
Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245619 ] Do, 06 April 2006 21:40
Steven Sousa  
eggplant wrote:
>>In fact, if whatever happened that night was NOT
>>part of DD's plan, then she has made DD into a fool
>
>
> So you think it was part of Dumbledore's plan to let a band of Death
> Eaters and a murderous werewolf who likes to attack kids break into a
> castle full of children while he was away and unable to defend it.
> Well..... we know with certainty that Dumbledore has made some blunders
> in his life, some of them quite serious, but he's never done anything
> that idiotic.

The wizarding world has a different view on risking people's lives than
you or I. Exhibit A: The Tri-Wizard tourney. They risked four young
wizards lives for a sport? Quiddich is also a pretty brutal game for
school-age kids to play.

The Order got to Hogwarts pretty quickly, and DD knew that he was the
real target of their mission, so student casualties seemed unlikely.
Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245687 ] Fr, 07 April 2006 10:09
Toon  
On 6 Apr 2006 10:09:50 -0700, "eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:

>> In fact, if whatever happened that night was NOT
>> part of DD's plan, then she has made DD into a fool
>
>So you think it was part of Dumbledore's plan to let a band of Death
>Eaters and a murderous werewolf who likes to attack kids break into a
>castle full of children while he was away and unable to defend it.
>Well..... we know with certainty that Dumbledore has made some blunders
>in his life, some of them quite serious, but he's never done anything
>that idiotic.

He even yells at Harry for suggesting that he'd leave Hogwarts
undefended. That's an insult to the guy.


>Not by me! The only thing that could make me forgive Snape is if it
>turns out that Dumbledore is not really dead, and then I couldn't
>forgive JKR. And after nearly a year of reading theories trying to
>explain why the the good guys should think it was a good idea for Snape
>to murder Dumbledore that evil night I have not found one that makes
>the tiniest particle of sense. Not one. Face it, Snape is evil; it
>might have been an interesting plot line if Snape turned into a good
>guy but JKR decided to go in another direction and it's too late for
>her to back out now.

Face it. Just because you cna't accept it, doesn't mean Snape's evil.
Anyone f our ideas can show up in Book 7, and people will happily
accept it. Juts ebcause you won't doesn't mean it cna't happen or be
true. It matter snot if it makes sense to you. it matter sif it
makes sense to the majority, and several theories do.

>

>Of course it did! Snape vowed to help Draco with his plan and if Snape
>was a good guy and he didn't even know what he was vowing to do under
>penalty of death then he's not just stupid he's Homer Simpson
>stupid. "I made a vow to do what.....DOOO!"
>
>Eggplant


Course, Homer's not truly stupid. And it's D'OH! not D'OOO!
Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245718 ] Fr, 07 April 2006 15:08
aaron  
Toon wrote:
> Face it. Just because you cna't accept it, doesn't mean Snape's evil.
> Anyone f our ideas can show up in Book 7, and people will happily
> accept it. Juts ebcause you won't doesn't mean it cna't happen or be
> true. It matter snot if it makes sense to you. it matter sif it
> makes sense to the majority, and several theories do.

Ok, ok cool it, man. There's no need for such language. There are
children on this newsgroup who should not be corrupted by your "cna'ts,
juts, snots, and sifs..."

;)

-Aaron
Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245735 ] Fr, 07 April 2006 19:26
eggplant107  
Toon <toon [at] toon.com>

> He [Dumbledore] even yells at Harry for suggesting
> that he'd leave Hogwarts undefended.

That true, Dumbledore did yell at Harry. Harry warned Dumbledore that
it would be dangerous to leave Hogwarts now, and the danger was caused
by Draco, and the danger would come from the Room Of Requirements;
Harry was absolutely correct in every particular. Dumbledore brushes
Harry off and tells him he would never leave the castle unprotected.
And what happened? Dumbledore left the castle unprotected. And if
Harry, without Dumbledore's knowledge, hadn't armed the DA with
lucky potion and ordered them to guard the castle while they were away
things would have been much much worse.

> That's an insult to the guy.

>From time to time even the best of us deserves to be insulted and this
was Dumbledore's time.

And could somebody please explain just what Dumbledore's mysterious
and murderous plan is, just a hint will do, just a summery, preferably
one that doesn't cause incredulous laughter after reading the first
sentence. The reason Potter books are so good is that even though it
deals in witches and wizards the characters seem like real Human
Beings; but the people in every good Snape theory I've every read,
well..... characters in a very bad children's novel might behave like
that, but no flesh and blood person ever would.

Eggplant
Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245782 ] Sa, 08 April 2006 02:45
wadkin2000  
eggplant wrote:


> And could somebody please explain just what Dumbledore's mysterious
> and murderous plan is, just a hint will do, just a summery, preferably
> one that doesn't cause incredulous laughter after reading the first
> sentence. The reason Potter books are so good is that even though it
> deals in witches and wizards the characters seem like real Human
> Beings; but the people in every good Snape theory I've every read,
> well..... characters in a very bad children's novel might behave like
> that, but no flesh and blood person ever would.
>
> Eggplant


If you have the time or the inclination (because the essay is quite
long), go to: www.redhen-publications.com/Potterverse.html and scroll
down to the article about our potions master called, "Loyaulte Me Lie"
(translation: Loyalty Binds Me). It presents an extremely convincing
"Snape is good" argument as well as a "Dumbledore really did know what
was going on" argument. I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with
all of it, but it presents an interesting theory to your above comment,
"And could somebody please explain just what Dumbledore' s mysterious
and murderous plan is..."

Again, a warning, it is very long, but IMO, an extremely well-thought
presentation.
Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245820 ] Sa, 08 April 2006 10:08
Toon  
On 7 Apr 2006 10:26:05 -0700, "eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>Toon <toon [at] toon.com>
>
>> He [Dumbledore] even yells at Harry for suggesting
>> that he'd leave Hogwarts undefended.
>
>That true, Dumbledore did yell at Harry. Harry warned Dumbledore that
>it would be dangerous to leave Hogwarts now, and the danger was caused
>by Draco, and the danger would come from the Room Of Requirements;
>Harry was absolutely correct in every particular. Dumbledore brushes
>Harry off and tells him he would never leave the castle unprotected.
>And what happened? Dumbledore left the castle unprotected. And if
>Harry, without Dumbledore's knowledge, hadn't armed the DA with
>lucky potion and ordered them to guard the castle while they were away
>things would have been much much worse.
>
>> That's an insult to the guy.
>
>>From time to time even the best of us deserves to be insulted and this
>was Dumbledore's time.
>
>And could somebody please explain just what Dumbledore's mysterious
>and murderous plan is, just a hint will do, just a summery, preferably
>one that doesn't cause incredulous laughter after reading the first
>sentence. The reason Potter books are so good is that even though it
>deals in witches and wizards the characters seem like real Human
>Beings; but the people in every good Snape theory I've every read,
>well..... characters in a very bad children's novel might behave like
>that, but no flesh and blood person ever would.
>
>Eggplant

The most logical reason is Snape's now back in the DE camp, fully
trusted, and can get great insider info. V excused him based on his
reasons. Far cry from trust. Espeically if Wormtail was a spy. Snape
might learn a few horcrux locations/ID's. RAB sure did, at least
once.

All it takes is for one other person to know the plan, someone Harry
trusts implacably, and would happily take the advice of a horcrux
info. If Snape owls Harry, he'll burn it on the spot.
Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245847 ] Sa, 08 April 2006 22:06
eggplant107  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com Wrote:

If you have the time or the inclination (because the essay is quite
long), go to:
www.redhen-publications.com/Potterverse.html
and scroll down to the article about our potions master called,
"Loyaulte Me Lie"

It is long, but I read it all and I thank you for referring me to it,
but I still say no good Snape theory computes; my comments are below.
And If anybody knows of the Email address of Mrs. Red Hen, apparently
the author of the article, please let me know, I'd very much like to
speak to her or him directly.

> Severus Snape is - beyond any reasonable doubt
> one of the White Hats.

I can see you love the Potter books and have spent time thinking about
them just as I have, but I must disagree with most of your conclusions.
The fact remains that Snape brutally murdered the greatest and kindest
wizard in the world, and that is not the act of a white hat, no way no
how.

> insofar as it regards Severus Snape, any indications
> to the contrary that JKR gives us in her interviews

Like the time JKR said Snape was more CULPABLE than Voldemort. When
asked if Snape had ever been loved JKR responded without hesitation:
"Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than
Voldemort, who never has".

Like the time JKR agreed with the statement:
"Dumbledore likes to see the good in people [like Snape] but he seems
trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes".

Like the time JKR said:
"immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and
I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that".

Like the time JKR seemed surprised so many readers liked Snape so she
said:
"You shouldn't think [Snape is] too nice. Let me just say that. It is
worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely."

> while Albus is willing to entrust Harry's safety to Snape,
> His confidence didn't necessarily apply in the opposite direction.

Dumbledore's mistrust of Harry has already caused the death of Sirius
Black and even Dumbledore admits that was a horrible blunder, and now
you seem to say the man is going to repeat his mistake. You say
Dumbledore trust Harry enough to tell him all about the Horcruxes, and
that two have already been destroyed, and that he's about to go after a
third, and for the life of me I can't thing of information that would
be more valuable to Voldemort; However you think he doesn't trust Harry
enough to tell him about some ridiculous hair brained idea to get
himself murdered by Snape. Dumbledore must know Harry well enough by
now to know that if he saw Snape murder his Headmaster he'd place
punishing Snape on a equal priority to killing Voldemort, and Harry
really doesn't need that sort of distraction, he's got enough to
do.

> if Snape was discovered halfway through the Prophecy
> and thrown from the building as Albus claims, how
> would Sybill have known that he was
> the person listening at the door?

I believe Snape was only discovered near the end of the prophesy and
Dumbledore later concluded that the spy only heard the first half
because he knew for a fact that's the only part Voldemort knew about.

I think Snape heard every word of the prophesy but he only told
Voldemort about the first half. Snape knew the first half would make
Voldemort want to attack the baby Harry, and from the second half he
knew that would be very dangerous. Snape wanted Voldemort dead just as
he wanted Dumbledore dead so he could be the most powerful wizard in
the world.

I also think that's the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape. I think many
years ago Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore to protect the
life of Harry Potter. Dumbledore thought this proved Snape was a good
person but Snape did it because he needed Harry to get rid of one of
two wizards more powerful than he was, he got rid of the other one on
his own.

> Just because he hated James Potter, doesn't necessarily
> mean that Snape wanted him dead.

James was probably the only man Snape hated even more than Sirius and
Lupin, and he was willing to do something worse than kill those two, he
wanted to feed them to the Death eaters and let this suck out their
soul through their mouth. I'm sure Snape felt that death was far too
good for James, he wanted him to suffer in agony.

> the biggest reason that Severus so hates Harry
> and he does sincerely hate Harry - has very
> little to do with James. Much as he honestly
> loathed James.

At last something I can agree with. I think the reason Snape hates
Harry is that he blames him for his mother's death, after all if
Harry had never been born Lilly would still be alive.

> we do have to ask ourselves whether Albus Dumbledore
> is really dead.

I certainly hope Dumbledore is dead, if not I'll never forgive JKR.
In the final confrontation scene in the last book with Voldemort Harry
needs to face the Dark Lord alone without a powerful wizard like
Dumbledore waiting in the wings ready to save the day if Harry fails.
Incidentally years ago right after book 4 came out I predicted
Dumbledore would die at the end of book 6, although I admit I did not
predict Snape would be the one to kill him. I've hated Snape from day
1 but even I was surprised when Snape did that, and that speaks to the
brilliance of Rowling's writing; she told me exactly how things would
turn out in chapter 2, and if I didn't believe her that's my fault
not hers. Talk about hiding in plain sight!

> where does the Unbreakable Vow fit into this?

It tells us one of two things MUST be true, Snape is an evil bastard or
Snape is good but a brainless moron. Personally I don't think a
brainless Snape would make a very good book 7. And one thing we can be
certain of, whatever twists and turns Snape's character takes at the
end of the day it will turn out interesting, not necessarily good but
interesting.

> What seems most likely, if we agree that Snape is a
> White Hat, is that Snape had indeed passed
> information to the DEs.

How does that make him a white hat? In chapter 2 Snape said he helped
provide information that caused the death of Sirius Black. If that
wasn't true why did he say it? How did he expect to get away with a lie
of that magnitude to the two people who know more about the incident
than anyone else on planet Earth? Kreature went to Narcissa and told
her secret stuff about Sirius, and Bellatrix was the one who actually
killed him. Snape would be a absolute fool to say that if it wasn't
true. Those two knew the truth and if they thought Snape's boast was
full of hot air one or both would have said something but they did not.

> it [Snape's Vow] sent an unequivocal message to the
> Death Eaters as to whose side Snape was on.

I'm sorry but that's just nuts. A loyal CIA agent does not
assassinate the President of the United States just to strengthen his
position as a spy, especially when he is already fully trusted by the
other side. Snape was already Voldemort's most trusted aid, and Snape
didn't say that Narcissa did. And Bellatrix who didn't like Snape one
bit would have certainly challenged that remark if she thought it
untrue, but she said
nothing.

> he didn't vow literally to "kill Albus Dumbledore", you know.
> He Vowed to complete Draco's mission.

What are you talking about? Snape vowed to complete Draco's mission
if Draco failed to. Draco's mission was to murder Dumbledore. Draco
did fail. Thus Snape murdered Dumbledore. There is absolutely no way a
good Snape who was not a total brain dead idiot would ever make a vow
like that under ANY circumstances. No way! Absolutely no way!

And if you're trying to argue that Snape didn't really know what
the mission was but he agreed to make the vow anyway then the man is
even more mind numbingly stupid. Real people just don't do things
like that, although I admit a character in a very very bad children's
novel might. However JKR seems incapable of writing a bad book.

> Which now brings us to the overheard quarrel.
> Frankly, I am not altogether sure what that
> was all about, either.

I don't know what that quarrel was about either, but I do know that
Dumbledore was a very good man and a man not easily brought to anger.
The fact that he was very angry with Snape does not strengthen the good
Snape theory.

Eggplant
Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245848 ] Sa, 08 April 2006 23:48
wadkin2000  
eggplant wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com Wrote:
>
> If you have the time or the inclination (because the essay is quite
> long), go to:
> www.redhen-publications.com/Potterverse.html
> and scroll down to the article about our potions master called,
> "Loyaulte Me Lie"
>
> It is long, but I read it all and I thank you for referring me to it,
> but I still say no good Snape theory computes; my comments are below.
> And If anybody knows of the Email address of Mrs. Red Hen, apparently
> the author of the article, please let me know, I'd very much like to
> speak to her or him directly.
>
> > Severus Snape is - beyond any reasonable doubt
> > one of the White Hats.
>
> I can see you love the Potter books and have spent time thinking about
> them just as I have, but I must disagree with most of your conclusions.
> The fact remains that Snape brutally murdered the greatest and kindest
> wizard in the world, and that is not the act of a white hat, no way no
> how.
>
> > insofar as it regards Severus Snape, any indications
> > to the contrary that JKR gives us in her interviews
>
> Like the time JKR said Snape was more CULPABLE than Voldemort. When
> asked if Snape had ever been loved JKR responded without hesitation:
> "Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than
> Voldemort, who never has".
>
> Like the time JKR agreed with the statement:
> "Dumbledore likes to see the good in people [like Snape] but he seems
> trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes".
>
> Like the time JKR said:
> "immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and
> I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that".
>
> Like the time JKR seemed surprised so many readers liked Snape so she
> said:
> "You shouldn't think [Snape is] too nice. Let me just say that. It is
> worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely."
>
> > while Albus is willing to entrust Harry's safety to Snape,
> > His confidence didn't necessarily apply in the opposite direction.
>
> Dumbledore's mistrust of Harry has already caused the death of Sirius
> Black and even Dumbledore admits that was a horrible blunder, and now
> you seem to say the man is going to repeat his mistake. You say
> Dumbledore trust Harry enough to tell him all about the Horcruxes, and
> that two have already been destroyed, and that he's about to go after a
> third, and for the life of me I can't thing of information that would
> be more valuable to Voldemort; However you think he doesn't trust Harry
> enough to tell him about some ridiculous hair brained idea to get
> himself murdered by Snape. Dumbledore must know Harry well enough by
> now to know that if he saw Snape murder his Headmaster he'd place
> punishing Snape on a equal priority to killing Voldemort, and Harry
> really doesn't need that sort of distraction, he's got enough to
> do.
>
> > if Snape was discovered halfway through the Prophecy
> > and thrown from the building as Albus claims, how
> > would Sybill have known that he was
> > the person listening at the door?
>
> I believe Snape was only discovered near the end of the prophesy and
> Dumbledore later concluded that the spy only heard the first half
> because he knew for a fact that's the only part Voldemort knew about.
>
> I think Snape heard every word of the prophesy but he only told
> Voldemort about the first half. Snape knew the first half would make
> Voldemort want to attack the baby Harry, and from the second half he
> knew that would be very dangerous. Snape wanted Voldemort dead just as
> he wanted Dumbledore dead so he could be the most powerful wizard in
> the world.
>
> I also think that's the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape. I think many
> years ago Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore to protect the
> life of Harry Potter. Dumbledore thought this proved Snape was a good
> person but Snape did it because he needed Harry to get rid of one of
> two wizards more powerful than he was, he got rid of the other one on
> his own.
>
> > Just because he hated James Potter, doesn't necessarily
> > mean that Snape wanted him dead.
>
> James was probably the only man Snape hated even more than Sirius and
> Lupin, and he was willing to do something worse than kill those two, he
> wanted to feed them to the Death eaters and let this suck out their
> soul through their mouth. I'm sure Snape felt that death was far too
> good for James, he wanted him to suffer in agony.
>
> > the biggest reason that Severus so hates Harry
> > and he does sincerely hate Harry - has very
> > little to do with James. Much as he honestly
> > loathed James.
>
> At last something I can agree with. I think the reason Snape hates
> Harry is that he blames him for his mother's death, after all if
> Harry had never been born Lilly would still be alive.
>
> > we do have to ask ourselves whether Albus Dumbledore
> > is really dead.
>
> I certainly hope Dumbledore is dead, if not I'll never forgive JKR.
> In the final confrontation scene in the last book with Voldemort Harry
> needs to face the Dark Lord alone without a powerful wizard like
> Dumbledore waiting in the wings ready to save the day if Harry fails.
> Incidentally years ago right after book 4 came out I predicted
> Dumbledore would die at the end of book 6, although I admit I did not
> predict Snape would be the one to kill him. I've hated Snape from day
> 1 but even I was surprised when Snape did that, and that speaks to the
> brilliance of Rowling's writing; she told me exactly how things would
> turn out in chapter 2, and if I didn't believe her that's my fault
> not hers. Talk about hiding in plain sight!
>
> > where does the Unbreakable Vow fit into this?
>
> It tells us one of two things MUST be true, Snape is an evil bastard or
> Snape is good but a brainless moron. Personally I don't think a
> brainless Snape would make a very good book 7. And one thing we can be
> certain of, whatever twists and turns Snape's character takes at the
> end of the day it will turn out interesting, not necessarily good but
> interesting.
>
> > What seems most likely, if we agree that Snape is a
> > White Hat, is that Snape had indeed passed
> > information to the DEs.
>
> How does that make him a white hat? In chapter 2 Snape said he helped
> provide information that caused the death of Sirius Black. If that
> wasn't true why did he say it? How did he expect to get away with a lie
> of that magnitude to the two people who know more about the incident
> than anyone else on planet Earth? Kreature went to Narcissa and told
> her secret stuff about Sirius, and Bellatrix was the one who actually
> killed him. Snape would be a absolute fool to say that if it wasn't
> true. Those two knew the truth and if they thought Snape's boast was
> full of hot air one or both would have said something but they did not.
>
> > it [Snape's Vow] sent an unequivocal message to the
> > Death Eaters as to whose side Snape was on.
>
> I'm sorry but that's just nuts. A loyal CIA agent does not
> assassinate the President of the United States just to strengthen his
> position as a spy, especially when he is already fully trusted by the
> other side. Snape was already Voldemort's most trusted aid, and Snape
> didn't say that Narcissa did. And Bellatrix who didn't like Snape one
> bit would have certainly challenged that remark if she thought it
> untrue, but she said
> nothing.
>
> > he didn't vow literally to "kill Albus Dumbledore", you know.
> > He Vowed to complete Draco's mission.
>
> What are you talking about? Snape vowed to complete Draco's mission
> if Draco failed to. Draco's mission was to murder Dumbledore. Draco
> did fail. Thus Snape murdered Dumbledore. There is absolutely no way a
> good Snape who was not a total brain dead idiot would ever make a vow
> like that under ANY circumstances. No way! Absolutely no way!
>
> And if you're trying to argue that Snape didn't really know what
> the mission was but he agreed to make the vow anyway then the man is
> even more mind numbingly stupid. Real people just don't do things
> like that, although I admit a character in a very very bad children's
> novel might. However JKR seems incapable of writing a bad book.
>
> > Which now brings us to the overheard quarrel.
> > Frankly, I am not altogether sure what that
> > was all about, either.
>
> I don't know what that quarrel was about either, but I do know that
> Dumbledore was a very good man and a man not easily brought to anger.
> The fact that he was very angry with Snape does not strengthen the good
> Snape theory.
>
> Eggplant


I'm glad you enjoyed it. I thought it was a very well-written (albeit
long) essay. Some of the others on the site are just as good. The
only email I could find was: JOdel [at] aol.com
That's the person (don't know if male/female) who runs the site. The
essays are by different authors, not just J.Odell.
Vorheriges Thema:Music
Nächstes Thema:why not release book 7 and film 5 at the same time?
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