A New Secret Keeper Question

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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » A New Secret Keeper Question

A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245503]

Mi, 05 April 2006 16:17

Brent Braten

I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
(Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?

The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.

I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
is. Any thoughts?

BB

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245506 ]

Mi, 05 April 2006 16:43

wadkin2000

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245511 ]

Mi, 05 April 2006 17:31

drusilla

Brent Braten escribió:
> I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
> book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
>
> The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
> Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
> must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
> upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
>
> I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
> is. Any thoughts?
>
> BB
>
>
I suppse the spell dies when the Secret Keeper tells the secret.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245514 ]

Mi, 05 April 2006 17:46

tbarry22

drusilla wrote:
> Brent Braten escribi=F3:
> > I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the =
first
> > book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> > (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
> >
> > The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> > visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was =
the
> > Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Pet=
er
> > must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some dou=
bt
> > upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
> >
> > I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer=
it
> > is. Any thoughts?
> >
> > BB
> >
> >
> I suppse the spell dies when the Secret Keeper tells the secret.

It doesn't. The secret keeper can tell whomever he or she wants. The
person hearing it cannot reveal it. So Voldemort technically could not
have told anyone else...Wormtail is the only one who can reveal the
whereabouts. But since the house was destroyed, could that have ended
the secret?

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245543 ]

Do, 06 April 2006 03:01

Brent Braten

<wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1144248215.530723.99180 [at] i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Brent Braten wrote:
> > I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the
first
> > book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> > (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
> >
> > The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> > visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was
the
> > Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then
Peter
> > must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some
doubt
> > upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
> >
> > I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer
it
> > is. Any thoughts?
> >
> > BB
>
> It was DD who helped in casting the Fidelius charm on the Potters'
> house, so probably he told Hagrid. I hope we find out in book 7 how DD
> found out so quickly about what happened at Godric's Hollow.
>
Um, I hate to say this but if this were true then Dumbledore would have
known that Peter was the secret keeper.

BB

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245554 ]

Do, 06 April 2006 04:23

richard e white

Brent Braten wrote:

> I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
> book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
>
> The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
> Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
> must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
> upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
>
> I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
> is. Any thoughts?
>
> BB

One set of people went with the idea that the secret keeper could let the hole
cat out of tthe bag and not just tell one person. If this reading is true then
peter broke the charm. and once the charm was no more then DD could tell
anyone.
also remember that the info could have been put in a note. If peter wrote the
note and then black showed it around then most would think that black was the
secret keeper.

I am not sure witch way I like it better. But I do know that is one of the
areas that JKR has not shown us as it gives more away then she has been ready
for.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245555 ]

Do, 06 April 2006 04:24

richard e white

Brent Braten wrote:

> <wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1144248215.530723.99180 [at] i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Brent Braten wrote:
> > > I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the
> first
> > > book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> > > (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
> > >
> > > The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> > > visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was
> the
> > > Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then
> Peter
> > > must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some
> doubt
> > > upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
> > >
> > > I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer
> it
> > > is. Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > BB
> >
> > It was DD who helped in casting the Fidelius charm on the Potters'
> > house, so probably he told Hagrid. I hope we find out in book 7 how DD
> > found out so quickly about what happened at Godric's Hollow.
> >
> Um, I hate to say this but if this were true then Dumbledore would have
> known that Peter was the secret keeper.
>
> BB

Depends on how he learned the secret. it could have been done in the same way
that harry learned about number 12 gm. and remember that dd was not there.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245557 ]

Do, 06 April 2006 04:27

richard e white

wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> Brent Braten wrote:
> > I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
> > book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> > (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
> >
> > The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> > visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
> > Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
> > must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
> > upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
> >
> > I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
> > is. Any thoughts?
> >
> > BB
>
> It was DD who helped in casting the Fidelius charm on the Potters'
> house, so probably he told Hagrid. I hope we find out in book 7 how DD
> found out so quickly about what happened at Godric's Hollow.

No. DD told them the best chance to hide was the f charm. No where in the books
does it say who cast it. in fact the scean in the ss with black and lupin hints
that Jameds did the charm himself as it was James that black talked into useing
peter. I know this is weak at best but that is the closest the books come to
saying who did the casting.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245558 ]

Do, 06 April 2006 04:30

richard e white

tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> drusilla wrote:
> > Brent Braten escribi=F3:
> > > I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before =
the first
> > > book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Po=
tters
> > > (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
> > >
> > > The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge =
is
> > > visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius =
was the
> > > Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then=
Peter
> > > must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some=
doubt
> > > upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
> > >
> > > I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but th=
erer it
> > > is. Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > BB
> > >
> > >
> > I suppse the spell dies when the Secret Keeper tells the secret.
>
> It doesn't. The secret keeper can tell whomever he or she wants. The
> person hearing it cannot reveal it. So Voldemort technically could not=

> have told anyone else...Wormtail is the only one who can reveal the
> whereabouts. But since the house was destroyed, could that have ended
> the secret?

I think it was either that or the deaths of harry's parents. I like the =
idea of the
secret ending and the place showing back up as it ansers most of the rand=
om
questions. but who knows for sure.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245563 ]

Do, 06 April 2006 06:51

drusilla

richard e white escribió:
> tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> drusilla wrote:
>>> Brent Braten escribió:
>>>> I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
>>>> book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
>>>> (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
>>>>
>>>> The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
>>>> visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
>>>> Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
>>>> must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
>>>> upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
>>>>
>>>> I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
>>>> is. Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> BB
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I suppse the spell dies when the Secret Keeper tells the secret.
>> It doesn't. The secret keeper can tell whomever he or she wants. The
>> person hearing it cannot reveal it. So Voldemort technically could not
>> have told anyone else...Wormtail is the only one who can reveal the
>> whereabouts. But since the house was destroyed, could that have ended
>> the secret?
>
> I think it was either that or the deaths of harry's parents. I like the idea of the
> secret ending and the place showing back up as it ansers most of the random
> questions. but who knows for sure.

I think is most that when the Secret Keeper speaks the secret, the
charm is broken. So, everybody knows.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245573 ]

Do, 06 April 2006 10:27

Toon

On 5 Apr 2006 07:43:35 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>
>Brent Braten wrote:
>> I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
>> book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
>> (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
>>
>> The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
>> visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
>> Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
>> must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
>> upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
>>
>> I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
>> is. Any thoughts?
>>
>> BB
>
>It was DD who helped in casting the Fidelius charm on the Potters'
>house, so probably he told Hagrid. I hope we find out in book 7 how DD
>found out so quickly about what happened at Godric's Hollow.

I stills ay Lily activated the DD signal before grabbing Harry. Heck,
how doe she know so much of what happened?

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245576 ]

Do, 06 April 2006 10:31

dsueme

Brent Braten wrote:

> I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
> is. Any thoughts?

My thought is that the events that evening were of such cosmic bad (and
good) karma that they escaped the technicalities of the "secret keeper"
system. Sort of like Sauron's demise at the end of the first age of
Middle Earth, it was an event that rocked the world to it's
foundations.

And, frankly, it has consistently been depicted in that light.

Sorry, Brent.

Dave

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245589 ]

Do, 06 April 2006 14:11

Thomas Madura

richard e white wrote:

> Brent Braten wrote:
>
>
>>I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
>>book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
>>(Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
>>
>>The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
>>visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
>>Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
>>must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
>>upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
>>
>>I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
>>is. Any thoughts?
>>
>>BB
>
>
> One set of people went with the idea that the secret keeper could let the hole
> cat out of tthe bag and not just tell one person. If this reading is true then
> peter broke the charm. and once the charm was no more then DD could tell
> anyone.
> also remember that the info could have been put in a note. If peter wrote the
> note and then black showed it around then most would think that black was the
> secret keeper.
>
> I am not sure witch way I like it better. But I do know that is one of the
> areas that JKR has not shown us as it gives more away then she has been ready
> for.
>
>
> --
> Richard The Blind Typer
> Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
>
>

There are LOTS of holes in the Secret Keeper Spell.

For example - does it mean that if I establish a place as a secret - the
person who owns that place now can't find it? I mean - for instance -
one could cast the spell on the Malfoy residence as say a meeting place
for the Death Eaters. I maintain that Draco would still know where his
house is since he lives there.

Same with 12 GP - Harry now owns the place. The spell surely cannot
prevent Harry from knowing where it is.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245674 ]

Fr, 07 April 2006 08:18

dicconf

In article <e126p2$rom$1 [at] emma.aioe.org>, drusilla <me [at] me.net> wrote:
>richard e white escribió:
>> tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>>> drusilla wrote:
>>>> I suppse the spell dies when the Secret Keeper tells the secret.

>>> It doesn't. The secret keeper can tell whomever he or she wants. The
>>> person hearing it cannot reveal it. So Voldemort technically could not
>>> have told anyone else...Wormtail is the only one who can reveal the
>>> whereabouts. But since the house was destroyed, could that have ended
>>> the secret?
>>
>> I think it was either that or the deaths of harry's parents. I like the idea of
>> the secret ending and the place showing back up as it ansers most of the random
>> questions. but who knows for sure.
>
> I think is most that when the Secret Keeper speaks the secret, the
>charm is broken. So, everybody knows.

Do you mean "speaks" as opposed to "writes a note"?
I guess that could make a difference. Dumbledore wrote a note to tell
Harry, and Harry read the note and I think he only _thought_ the words.
When Dumbledore spoke aloud to tell the Dursleys that Harry owned
No.12 Grimmauld Place, he included the information that the Order had
placed enchantments on it to make it unplottable. That ought to have
let the Dursleys get in (if they think or, more likely, say the words
if they get to the sidewalk in front of it) - or it ought to have broken
the spell. I wonder which it is.

=Tamar

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245679 ]

Fr, 07 April 2006 09:54

Toon

On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 23:51:59 -0500, drusilla <me [at] me.net> wrote:

>richard e white escribió:
>> tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>> drusilla wrote:
>>>> Brent Braten escribió:
>>>>> I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
>>>>> book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
>>>>> (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
>>>>>
>>>>> The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
>>>>> visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
>>>>> Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
>>>>> must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
>>>>> upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
>>>>> is. Any thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> BB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I suppse the spell dies when the Secret Keeper tells the secret.
>>> It doesn't. The secret keeper can tell whomever he or she wants. The
>>> person hearing it cannot reveal it. So Voldemort technically could not
>>> have told anyone else...Wormtail is the only one who can reveal the
>>> whereabouts. But since the house was destroyed, could that have ended
>>> the secret?
>>
>> I think it was either that or the deaths of harry's parents. I like the idea of the
>> secret ending and the place showing back up as it ansers most of the random
>> questions. but who knows for sure.
>
> I think is most that when the Secret Keeper speaks the secret, the
>charm is broken. So, everybody knows.

I doubt it, since writing can be super specific. Perhas if you just
yell it to the world, it'll break, butt telling one person does
nothing. Now, if the secret itself dies, then the charm's broken, as
there's nothing to protect.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245680 ]

Fr, 07 April 2006 09:55

Toon

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 12:11:35 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>richard e white wrote:
>
>> Brent Braten wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
>>>book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
>>>(Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
>>>
>>>The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
>>>visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
>>>Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
>>>must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
>>>upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
>>>
>>>I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
>>>is. Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>BB
>>
>>
>> One set of people went with the idea that the secret keeper could let the hole
>> cat out of tthe bag and not just tell one person. If this reading is true then
>> peter broke the charm. and once the charm was no more then DD could tell
>> anyone.
>> also remember that the info could have been put in a note. If peter wrote the
>> note and then black showed it around then most would think that black was the
>> secret keeper.
>>
>> I am not sure witch way I like it better. But I do know that is one of the
>> areas that JKR has not shown us as it gives more away then she has been ready
>> for.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Richard The Blind Typer
>> Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
>>
>>
>
>There are LOTS of holes in the Secret Keeper Spell.
>
>For example - does it mean that if I establish a place as a secret - the
>person who owns that place now can't find it? I mean - for instance -
>one could cast the spell on the Malfoy residence as say a meeting place
>for the Death Eaters. I maintain that Draco would still know where his
>house is since he lives there.
>
>
>Same with 12 GP - Harry now owns the place. The spell surely cannot
>prevent Harry from knowing where it is.
>

But he knows the secret.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245706 ]

Fr, 07 April 2006 12:14

Julie T

>>> I think it was either that or the deaths of harry's parents. I
>>> like the idea of the secret ending and the place showing back up as
>>> it ansers most of the random questions. but who knows for sure.
>>
>> I think is most that when the Secret Keeper speaks the secret, the
>> charm is broken. So, everybody knows.
>
> Do you mean "speaks" as opposed to "writes a note"?
> I guess that could make a difference. Dumbledore wrote a note to tell
> Harry, and Harry read the note and I think he only _thought_ the
> words. When Dumbledore spoke aloud to tell the Dursleys that Harry
> owned
> No.12 Grimmauld Place, he included the information that the Order had
> placed enchantments on it to make it unplottable. That ought to have
> let the Dursleys get in (if they think or, more likely, say the words
> if they get to the sidewalk in front of it) - or it ought to have
> broken the spell. I wonder which it is.
>
> =Tamar

Just wondering if the reason DD told the Dursleys the address was so
they had somewhere safe to go if they needed to, once the charm broke
(Harry is too soft-hearted to want them dead at Voldemorts hands, even
after all their abuse - most especially Petunia who is his blood kin).
Maybe Vernon meets his end, Harry saves Petunia & Dudley and this
is where Petunia manages a little magic...

--
Julie
-------

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245761 ]

Fr, 07 April 2006 23:55

Thomas Madura

Toon wrote:

> On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 12:11:35 GMT, Thom Madura
> <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>richard e white wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Brent Braten wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
>>>>book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
>>>>(Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
>>>>
>>>>The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
>>>>visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
>>>>Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
>>>>must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
>>>>upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
>>>>
>>>>I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
>>>>is. Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>>BB
>>>
>>>
>>>One set of people went with the idea that the secret keeper could let the hole
>>>cat out of tthe bag and not just tell one person. If this reading is true then
>>>peter broke the charm. and once the charm was no more then DD could tell
>>>anyone.
>>>also remember that the info could have been put in a note. If peter wrote the
>>>note and then black showed it around then most would think that black was the
>>>secret keeper.
>>>
>>>I am not sure witch way I like it better. But I do know that is one of the
>>>areas that JKR has not shown us as it gives more away then she has been ready
>>>for.
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Richard The Blind Typer
>>>Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>There are LOTS of holes in the Secret Keeper Spell.
>>
>>For example - does it mean that if I establish a place as a secret - the
>>person who owns that place now can't find it? I mean - for instance -
>>one could cast the spell on the Malfoy residence as say a meeting place
>>for the Death Eaters. I maintain that Draco would still know where his
>>house is since he lives there.
>>
>>
>>Same with 12 GP - Harry now owns the place. The spell surely cannot
>>prevent Harry from knowing where it is.
>>
>
>
> But he knows the secret.

Not my point - my point is that IF harry did not know the secret - they
still could not hide 12 GP from him because he owns it. Bellatrix is a
direct relative. SHe would know where 12 GP is - and the spell would not
change that. IF the house suddenly disappeared - she would notice that
too - a sure bet that the spell was used if that's what it does.

This "Secret Keeper" spell has more holes in it that a good piece of
Swiss. I am sure this is a case of JKR not really thinking up all the
possibilities before she used it in the books.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245777 ]

Sa, 08 April 2006 02:20

richard e white

drusilla wrote:

> richard e white escribi=F3:
> > tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >> drusilla wrote:
> >>> Brent Braten escribi=F3:
> >>>> I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before=
the first
> >>>> book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the P=
otters
> >>>> (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
> >>>>
> >>>> The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge=
is
> >>>> visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius=
was the
> >>>> Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them the=
n Peter
> >>>> must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast som=
e doubt
> >>>> upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but t=
herer it
> >>>> is. Any thoughts?
> >>>>
> >>>> BB
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> I suppse the spell dies when the Secret Keeper tells the secret.
> >> It doesn't. The secret keeper can tell whomever he or she wants. T=
he
> >> person hearing it cannot reveal it. So Voldemort technically could =
not
> >> have told anyone else...Wormtail is the only one who can reveal the
> >> whereabouts. But since the house was destroyed, could that have end=
ed
> >> the secret?
> >
> > I think it was either that or the deaths of harry's parents. I like =
the idea of the
> > secret ending and the place showing back up as it ansers most of the =
random
> > questions. but who knows for sure.
>
> I think is most that when the Secret Keeper speaks the secret, the
> charm is broken. So, everybody knows.

no. The secret can be passed with out breaking the secret. DD told all =
the members of
the order where HQ is and that didn't break anything. Tho there is some =
coments in book 4
that hints that the secret keeper may also beable to break the charm by r=
eleaseing the
secret. This was the main belife until we saw more on the charm.
I would not be surprised that the secret keeper could do either. tell on=
e person or break
the charm.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245778 ]

Sa, 08 April 2006 02:25

richard e white

Thom Madura wrote:

> richard e white wrote:
>
> > Brent Braten wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
> >>book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> >>(Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
> >>
> >>The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> >>visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
> >>Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
> >>must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
> >>upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
> >>
> >>I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
> >>is. Any thoughts?
> >>
> >>BB
> >
> >
> > One set of people went with the idea that the secret keeper could let the hole
> > cat out of tthe bag and not just tell one person. If this reading is true then
> > peter broke the charm. and once the charm was no more then DD could tell
> > anyone.
> > also remember that the info could have been put in a note. If peter wrote the
> > note and then black showed it around then most would think that black was the
> > secret keeper.
> >
> > I am not sure witch way I like it better. But I do know that is one of the
> > areas that JKR has not shown us as it gives more away then she has been ready
> > for.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard The Blind Typer
> > Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
> >
> >
>
> There are LOTS of holes in the Secret Keeper Spell.
>
> For example - does it mean that if I establish a place as a secret - the
> person who owns that place now can't find it? I mean - for instance -
> one could cast the spell on the Malfoy residence as say a meeting place
> for the Death Eaters. I maintain that Draco would still know where his
> house is since he lives there.
>
> Same with 12 GP - Harry now owns the place. The spell surely cannot
> prevent Harry from knowing where it is.

You are makeing your own rules about magic there. They may agree with JKR's vertion
or they might not. So far we don't know if ownership is inportant. DD seamed less
worried about ownership of 12gm then he worried about what kind of spells black's
famly might have placed there.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245780 ]

Sa, 08 April 2006 02:30

richard e white

Thom Madura wrote:

> Toon wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 12:11:35 GMT, Thom Madura
> > <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>richard e white wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Brent Braten wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
> >>>>book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> >>>>(Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
> >>>>
> >>>>The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> >>>>visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
> >>>>Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
> >>>>must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
> >>>>upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
> >>>>
> >>>>I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
> >>>>is. Any thoughts?
> >>>>
> >>>>BB
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>One set of people went with the idea that the secret keeper could let the hole
> >>>cat out of tthe bag and not just tell one person. If this reading is true then
> >>>peter broke the charm. and once the charm was no more then DD could tell
> >>>anyone.
> >>>also remember that the info could have been put in a note. If peter wrote the
> >>>note and then black showed it around then most would think that black was the
> >>>secret keeper.
> >>>
> >>>I am not sure witch way I like it better. But I do know that is one of the
> >>>areas that JKR has not shown us as it gives more away then she has been ready
> >>>for.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Richard The Blind Typer
> >>>Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>There are LOTS of holes in the Secret Keeper Spell.
> >>
> >>For example - does it mean that if I establish a place as a secret - the
> >>person who owns that place now can't find it? I mean - for instance -
> >>one could cast the spell on the Malfoy residence as say a meeting place
> >>for the Death Eaters. I maintain that Draco would still know where his
> >>house is since he lives there.
> >>
> >>
> >>Same with 12 GP - Harry now owns the place. The spell surely cannot
> >>prevent Harry from knowing where it is.
> >>
> >
> >
> > But he knows the secret.
>
> Not my point - my point is that IF harry did not know the secret - they
> still could not hide 12 GP from him because he owns it. Bellatrix is a
> direct relative. SHe would know where 12 GP is - and the spell would not
> change that. IF the house suddenly disappeared - she would notice that
> too - a sure bet that the spell was used if that's what it does.

people don't suddenly realize that they forgot something unless they happend to be
thinking about it at the time it left.
Even when you are hit so hard that you forget you don't note it. That is why they ask
you what day it is when they see you in the hospital. And it feels realy odd when
they tell you that you are off by more then a week.

>
>
> This "Secret Keeper" spell has more holes in it that a good piece of
> Swiss. I am sure this is a case of JKR not really thinking up all the
> possibilities before she used it in the books.

It looks more to me like you came up with your own set of magical rules and applied
them to her work.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245901 ]

So, 09 April 2006 18:39

wadkin2000

richard e white wrote:
> Thom Madura wrote:
>
> > Toon wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 12:11:35 GMT, Thom Madura
> > > <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>richard e white wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Brent Braten wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
> > >>>>book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> > >>>>(Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> > >>>>visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
> > >>>>Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
> > >>>>must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
> > >>>>upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
> > >>>>is. Any thoughts?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>BB
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>One set of people went with the idea that the secret keeper could let the hole
> > >>>cat out of tthe bag and not just tell one person. If this reading is true then
> > >>>peter broke the charm. and once the charm was no more then DD could tell
> > >>>anyone.
> > >>>also remember that the info could have been put in a note. If peter wrote the
> > >>>note and then black showed it around then most would think that black was the
> > >>>secret keeper.
> > >>>
> > >>>I am not sure witch way I like it better. But I do know that is one of the
> > >>>areas that JKR has not shown us as it gives more away then she has been ready
> > >>>for.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>--
> > >>>Richard The Blind Typer
> > >>>Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>There are LOTS of holes in the Secret Keeper Spell.
> > >>
> > >>For example - does it mean that if I establish a place as a secret - the
> > >>person who owns that place now can't find it? I mean - for instance -
> > >>one could cast the spell on the Malfoy residence as say a meeting place
> > >>for the Death Eaters. I maintain that Draco would still know where his
> > >>house is since he lives there.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Same with 12 GP - Harry now owns the place. The spell surely cannot
> > >>prevent Harry from knowing where it is.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > But he knows the secret.
> >
> > Not my point - my point is that IF harry did not know the secret - they
> > still could not hide 12 GP from him because he owns it. Bellatrix is a
> > direct relative. SHe would know where 12 GP is - and the spell would not
> > change that. IF the house suddenly disappeared - she would notice that
> > too - a sure bet that the spell was used if that's what it does.
>
> people don't suddenly realize that they forgot something unless they happend to be
> thinking about it at the time it left.
> Even when you are hit so hard that you forget you don't note it. That is why they ask
> you what day it is when they see you in the hospital. And it feels realy odd when
> they tell you that you are off by more then a week.
>
> >
> >
> > This "Secret Keeper" spell has more holes in it that a good piece of
> > Swiss. I am sure this is a case of JKR not really thinking up all the
> > possibilities before she used it in the books.
>
> It looks more to me like you came up with your own set of magical rules and applied
> them to her work.
>
>
>
> --
> Richard The Blind Typer
> Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

What I'm curious about is why didn't James and Lily make one or the
other the secret keeper? Then they could have told the people they
wanted and those people wouldn't have been able to tell anyone else.
Also, when DD offered to be the original secret keeper, I don't know if
he explained enough of the gravity of the situation to them. He knew
that if he were the SK, it'd be a cold day in hell before Voldy ever
found out where they were. Which leads me to another thought....Since
V is supposed to be this master Legilimens, would he have been able to
get the information by that method?

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245906 ]

So, 09 April 2006 19:27

Thomas Madura

richard e white wrote:

> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>
>>richard e white wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Brent Braten wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
>>>>book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
>>>>(Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
>>>>
>>>>The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
>>>>visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
>>>>Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
>>>>must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
>>>>upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
>>>>
>>>>I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
>>>>is. Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>>BB
>>>
>>>
>>>One set of people went with the idea that the secret keeper could let the hole
>>>cat out of tthe bag and not just tell one person. If this reading is true then
>>>peter broke the charm. and once the charm was no more then DD could tell
>>>anyone.
>>>also remember that the info could have been put in a note. If peter wrote the
>>>note and then black showed it around then most would think that black was the
>>>secret keeper.
>>>
>>>I am not sure witch way I like it better. But I do know that is one of the
>>>areas that JKR has not shown us as it gives more away then she has been ready
>>>for.
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Richard The Blind Typer
>>>Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>There are LOTS of holes in the Secret Keeper Spell.
>>
>>For example - does it mean that if I establish a place as a secret - the
>>person who owns that place now can't find it? I mean - for instance -
>>one could cast the spell on the Malfoy residence as say a meeting place
>>for the Death Eaters. I maintain that Draco would still know where his
>>house is since he lives there.
>>
>>Same with 12 GP - Harry now owns the place. The spell surely cannot
>>prevent Harry from knowing where it is.
>
>
> You are makeing your own rules about magic there. They may agree with JKR's vertion
> or they might not. So far we don't know if ownership is inportant.

You are correct - we do not know if ownership is important. However - in
my Draco example - His father owns the house - he just lives there
everyday - as does Narcissa - and apparently some House Elves. The
Malfoys are a prominent Wizarding Family. One could presume that a
number of the Ministers of Magic would also have been to his house - if
nothing else but to accept a bribe - or maybe attend a party.

THe number of people who would know where the house is could be quite
large. IF the house suddenly disappeared from view - that would be an
indication of a Spell being used. However - how could the spell prevent
the residents of the house from living there?

I am not making rules - what I am saying is that there are a lot of
HOLES in the description of the secret keeper spell that we do not know

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245908 ]

So, 09 April 2006 19:32

Thomas Madura

richard e white wrote:

> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>
>>Toon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 12:11:35 GMT, Thom Madura
>>><Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>richard e white wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Brent Braten wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
>>>>>>book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
>>>>>>(Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
>>>>>>visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
>>>>>>Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
>>>>>>must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
>>>>>>upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
>>>>>>is. Any thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>BB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>One set of people went with the idea that the secret keeper could let the hole
>>>>>cat out of tthe bag and not just tell one person. If this reading is true then
>>>>>peter broke the charm. and once the charm was no more then DD could tell
>>>>>anyone.
>>>>>also remember that the info could have been put in a note. If peter wrote the
>>>>>note and then black showed it around then most would think that black was the
>>>>>secret keeper.
>>>>>
>>>>>I am not sure witch way I like it better. But I do know that is one of the
>>>>>areas that JKR has not shown us as it gives more away then she has been ready
>>>>>for.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Richard The Blind Typer
>>>>>Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>There are LOTS of holes in the Secret Keeper Spell.
>>>>
>>>>For example - does it mean that if I establish a place as a secret - the
>>>>person who owns that place now can't find it? I mean - for instance -
>>>>one could cast the spell on the Malfoy residence as say a meeting place
>>>>for the Death Eaters. I maintain that Draco would still know where his
>>>>house is since he lives there.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Same with 12 GP - Harry now owns the place. The spell surely cannot
>>>>prevent Harry from knowing where it is.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>But he knows the secret.
>>
>>Not my point - my point is that IF harry did not know the secret - they
>>still could not hide 12 GP from him because he owns it. Bellatrix is a
>>direct relative. SHe would know where 12 GP is - and the spell would not
>>change that. IF the house suddenly disappeared - she would notice that
>>too - a sure bet that the spell was used if that's what it does.
>
>
> people don't suddenly realize that they forgot something unless they happend to be
> thinking about it at the time it left.
> Even when you are hit so hard that you forget you don't note it. That is why they ask
> you what day it is when they see you in the hospital. And it feels realy odd when
> they tell you that you are off by more then a week.

?

What you are saying is that if they made the Malfoy residence the
headquarters of the DE's - and Draco and Narcissa were not part of it -
that they would just suddenly forget where they lived? My house was
somewhere here when I left this morning - I wonder where it went?

Sorry - your explanation doesn't work

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245922 ]

So, 09 April 2006 23:33

Mishagam

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245923 ]

So, 09 April 2006 23:34

Mishagam

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #245932 ]

Mo, 10 April 2006 01:53

Philip Lewis

Thom Madura <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> writes:
>I am not making rules - what I am saying is that there are a lot of
>HOLES in the description of the secret keeper spell that we do not know
I'm not going deny holes... But A thought just occured.

The spell hides a *secret*. If it's someting which is common
knowledge, it might not work.

Take the Potters secret. It wasn't that the location of the house was
hidden, it was that they were there hiding. so someone could find the
house, they just wouldn't know (and appreantly see) that there were
there.

For 12 Gimmauld place, It's possible that there were two spells in
place.
1: Fidelius Charm for the location of the order
2: Obscurity charm that would only show the place that knew the
location of the order.

I seem to recall that it would hide someone peeping in the window, but
what if they went into the house and sat in the same chair?

My example of "harry potter exists" to make him invisible wouldn't
work, because that isn't a secret. That he is hiding at hogwarts might work.
That he is hiding on earth? The question of course, is how far can the
magic go? It *is* magic after all.

--
May no harm befall you,
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #246823 ]

Mo, 10 April 2006 13:30

Toon

On 9 Apr 2006 09:39:05 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>What I'm curious about is why didn't James and Lily make one or the
>other the secret keeper? Then they could have told the people they
>wanted and those people wouldn't have been able to tell anyone else.
>Also, when DD offered to be the original secret keeper, I don't know if
>he explained enough of the gravity of the situation to them. He knew
>that if he were the SK, it'd be a cold day in hell before Voldy ever
>found out where they were. Which leads me to another thought....Since
>V is supposed to be this master Legilimens, would he have been able to
>get the information by that method?

If Lily or James was the SK, they wouldn't be protected by it. And I
don't think "reading" someone's mind constitutes being told. But what
about Imperius?

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #246824 ]

Mo, 10 April 2006 13:33

Toon

On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 17:32:22 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> people don't suddenly realize that they forgot something unless they happend to be
>> thinking about it at the time it left.
>> Even when you are hit so hard that you forget you don't note it. That is why they ask
>> you what day it is when they see you in the hospital. And it feels realy odd when
>> they tell you that you are off by more then a week.
>
>?
>
>What you are saying is that if they made the Malfoy residence the
>headquarters of the DE's - and Draco and Narcissa were not part of it -
>that they would just suddenly forget where they lived? My house was
>somewhere here when I left this morning - I wonder where it went?
>
>Sorry - your explanation doesn't work

Why not? People in the Wild West Days lost their homes locations when
it snowed, since they were not traditional houses back then. I have
yet to hear a plausible explanation about why wifey poo wasn't
standing at the doorway calling out hubbykins' name. But hey, this
is, sadly, American history.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #246866 ]

Di, 11 April 2006 01:57

richard e white

wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> richard e white wrote:
> > Thom Madura wrote:
> >
> > > Toon wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 12:11:35 GMT, Thom Madura
> > > > <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>richard e white wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>Brent Braten wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
> > > >>>>book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> > > >>>>(Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> > > >>>>visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
> > > >>>>Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
> > > >>>>must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
> > > >>>>upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
> > > >>>>is. Any thoughts?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>BB
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>One set of people went with the idea that the secret keeper could let the hole
> > > >>>cat out of tthe bag and not just tell one person. If this reading is true then
> > > >>>peter broke the charm. and once the charm was no more then DD could tell
> > > >>>anyone.
> > > >>>also remember that the info could have been put in a note. If peter wrote the
> > > >>>note and then black showed it around then most would think that black was the
> > > >>>secret keeper.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>I am not sure witch way I like it better. But I do know that is one of the
> > > >>>areas that JKR has not shown us as it gives more away then she has been ready
> > > >>>for.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>--
> > > >>>Richard The Blind Typer
> > > >>>Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>There are LOTS of holes in the Secret Keeper Spell.
> > > >>
> > > >>For example - does it mean that if I establish a place as a secret - the
> > > >>person who owns that place now can't find it? I mean - for instance -
> > > >>one could cast the spell on the Malfoy residence as say a meeting place
> > > >>for the Death Eaters. I maintain that Draco would still know where his
> > > >>house is since he lives there.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Same with 12 GP - Harry now owns the place. The spell surely cannot
> > > >>prevent Harry from knowing where it is.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > But he knows the secret.
> > >
> > > Not my point - my point is that IF harry did not know the secret - they
> > > still could not hide 12 GP from him because he owns it. Bellatrix is a
> > > direct relative. SHe would know where 12 GP is - and the spell would not
> > > change that. IF the house suddenly disappeared - she would notice that
> > > too - a sure bet that the spell was used if that's what it does.
> >
> > people don't suddenly realize that they forgot something unless they happend to be
> > thinking about it at the time it left.
> > Even when you are hit so hard that you forget you don't note it. That is why they ask
> > you what day it is when they see you in the hospital. And it feels realy odd when
> > they tell you that you are off by more then a week.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > This "Secret Keeper" spell has more holes in it that a good piece of
> > > Swiss. I am sure this is a case of JKR not really thinking up all the
> > > possibilities before she used it in the books.
> >
> > It looks more to me like you came up with your own set of magical rules and applied
> > them to her work.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard The Blind Typer
> > Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
>
> What I'm curious about is why didn't James and Lily make one or the
> other the secret keeper?

Good question. especially when the spy was known to be some one close to the potters. Some
go with trust. As the potters went with the person they trusted and he talked them into
useing peter. But I rather think there is more to it. And that JKR is still hideing some
things around that bit of information.

> Then they could have told the people they
> wanted and those people wouldn't have been able to tell anyone else.
>

This is the reason why one of the potters seams to be the best pick. But something may
still be hidden there.

> Also, when DD offered to be the original secret keeper, I don't know if
> he explained enough of the gravity of the situation to them. He knew
> that if he were the SK, it'd be a cold day in hell before Voldy ever
> found out where they were.

So may be we should wounder why they didn't use him.

> Which leads me to another thought....Since
> V is supposed to be this master Legilimens, would he have been able to
> get the information by that method?

No. But V may shatter the mind as he tries.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #246867 ]

Di, 11 April 2006 01:58

richard e white

Toon wrote:

> On 9 Apr 2006 09:39:05 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >What I'm curious about is why didn't James and Lily make one or the
> >other the secret keeper? Then they could have told the people they
> >wanted and those people wouldn't have been able to tell anyone else.
> >Also, when DD offered to be the original secret keeper, I don't know if
> >he explained enough of the gravity of the situation to them. He knew
> >that if he were the SK, it'd be a cold day in hell before Voldy ever
> >found out where they were. Which leads me to another thought....Since
> >V is supposed to be this master Legilimens, would he have been able to
> >get the information by that method?
>
> If Lily or James was the SK, they wouldn't be protected by it. And I
> don't think "reading" someone's mind constitutes being told. But what
> about Imperius?

I doubt that would work either.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #246868 ]

Di, 11 April 2006 02:04

richard e white

Thom Madura wrote:

> richard e white wrote:
>
> > Thom Madura wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Toon wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 12:11:35 GMT, Thom Madura
> >>><Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>richard e white wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Brent Braten wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
> >>>>>>book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> >>>>>>(Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> >>>>>>visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
> >>>>>>Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
> >>>>>>must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
> >>>>>>upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
> >>>>>>is. Any thoughts?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>BB
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>One set of people went with the idea that the secret keeper could let the hole
> >>>>>cat out of tthe bag and not just tell one person. If this reading is true then
> >>>>>peter broke the charm. and once the charm was no more then DD could tell
> >>>>>anyone.
> >>>>>also remember that the info could have been put in a note. If peter wrote the
> >>>>>note and then black showed it around then most would think that black was the
> >>>>>secret keeper.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I am not sure witch way I like it better. But I do know that is one of the
> >>>>>areas that JKR has not shown us as it gives more away then she has been ready
> >>>>>for.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>--
> >>>>>Richard The Blind Typer
> >>>>>Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>There are LOTS of holes in the Secret Keeper Spell.
> >>>>
> >>>>For example - does it mean that if I establish a place as a secret - the
> >>>>person who owns that place now can't find it? I mean - for instance -
> >>>>one could cast the spell on the Malfoy residence as say a meeting place
> >>>>for the Death Eaters. I maintain that Draco would still know where his
> >>>>house is since he lives there.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Same with 12 GP - Harry now owns the place. The spell surely cannot
> >>>>prevent Harry from knowing where it is.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>But he knows the secret.
> >>
> >>Not my point - my point is that IF harry did not know the secret - they
> >>still could not hide 12 GP from him because he owns it. Bellatrix is a
> >>direct relative. SHe would know where 12 GP is - and the spell would not
> >>change that. IF the house suddenly disappeared - she would notice that
> >>too - a sure bet that the spell was used if that's what it does.
> >
> >
> > people don't suddenly realize that they forgot something unless they happend to be
> > thinking about it at the time it left.
> > Even when you are hit so hard that you forget you don't note it. That is why they ask
> > you what day it is when they see you in the hospital. And it feels realy odd when
> > they tell you that you are off by more then a week.
>
> ?
>
> What you are saying is that if they made the Malfoy residence the
> headquarters of the DE's - and Draco and Narcissa were not part of it -
> that they would just suddenly forget where they lived? My house was
> somewhere here when I left this morning - I wonder where it went?
>
> Sorry - your explanation doesn't work

It does when you add magical powers that can alter a persons mind. Tho I doubt that any
would use it that badly. for the person might not know where they lived but every one would
know they lived somewhere and start to try and track it down. at first look this is what
was done to number 12 until you remember that no one went there for over ten years.
forgetting a place that no one has been to in ten years can pass below radar.
But I don't think Draco and his mom would forget where they lived. I think they just would
not find the DE's there. The question is does that charm work the same way every time? or
does it depend on how suttal you want to be?
There are a lot of questions about that charm we don't know about.
But with magic changeing perceptions we can't toss anything out yet.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #246869 ]

Di, 11 April 2006 02:09

richard e white

Philip Lewis wrote:

> Thom Madura <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> writes:
> >I am not making rules - what I am saying is that there are a lot of
> >HOLES in the description of the secret keeper spell that we do not know
> I'm not going deny holes... But A thought just occured.
>
> The spell hides a *secret*. If it's someting which is common
> knowledge, it might not work.
>
> Take the Potters secret. It wasn't that the location of the house was
> hidden, it was that they were there hiding. so someone could find the
> house, they just wouldn't know (and appreantly see) that there were
> there.
>
> For 12 Gimmauld place, It's possible that there were two spells in
> place.
> 1: Fidelius Charm for the location of the order
> 2: Obscurity charm that would only show the place that knew the
> location of the order.
>
> I seem to recall that it would hide someone peeping in the window, but
> what if they went into the house and sat in the same chair?

I doubt they would. something like the muggle repeling charm may just make it
so no one sits there even if they don't know why.

>
>
> My example of "harry potter exists" to make him invisible wouldn't
> work, because that isn't a secret. That he is hiding at hogwarts might work.
> That he is hiding on earth? The question of course, is how far can the
> magic go? It *is* magic after all.

And the only person who knows the rules for them in her world woun't anser about
them fully until after the last book. only then will we see how far she went.

>
>
> --
> May no harm befall you,
> flip
> Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
> Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #247544 ]

Di, 11 April 2006 13:08

Alex Clark

wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> What I'm curious about is why didn't James and Lily make one or the
> other the secret keeper? . . .

I think the only plausible reason is that they couldn't, which we might
take as a clue to the nature of the spell.

The way it seems to me is that the spell requires two parties: one who
wants to keep something (or more specifically a place) secret, and
another who agrees to keep that secret. And neither can be the other:
the Secret Keeper cannot also be an owner of the concealed property.
The place to be hidden is made a secret to outsiders when the key to
finding it is given to the Secret Keeper, but then the owner cannot
know who the Secret Keeper might give the secret to.

This would mean that in order to cast the Fidelius Charm you have to
believe that you can trust someone to be your Secret Keeper, even
though the secret that they would keep isn't their own secret.
Otherwise you wouldn't see any point to using the charm at all.

--
Alex Clark

Rat dildo lover mom (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #247545 ]

Di, 11 April 2006 13:22

Alex Clark

Brent Braten wrote:
> I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
> book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
>
> The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
> Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
> must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
> upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
>
> I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
> is. Any thoughts?

IIRC the caster of the spell had died, so maybe the spell had expired.
But it wasn't just the caster who died, it was the people whose secret
was being kept. That may well explain why the spell didn't stop Hagrid:
the owners of the secret were no longer there to have a secret to be
kept, so their secret as such ceased to exist. It's like James and Lily
had a contract with Peter, and when James and Lily were dead then
Peter, the only surviving party to the contract, had nobody left with
whom to have the contract, so the contract is null and void and Peter
is no longer the Secret Keeper.

--
Alex Clark

Mild mood art lover (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #247547 ]

Di, 11 April 2006 13:32

Alex Clark

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #247623 ]

Do, 13 April 2006 04:23

Brent Braten

"Alex Clark" <alexbclark [at] pennswoods.net> wrote in message
news:1144754568.660019.150000 [at] z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Brent Braten wrote:
> > I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the
first
> > book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> > (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
> >
> > The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> > visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was
the
> > Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then
Peter
> > must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some
doubt
> > upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
> >
> > I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer
it
> > is. Any thoughts?
>
> IIRC the caster of the spell had died, so maybe the spell had expired.
> But it wasn't just the caster who died, it was the people whose secret
> was being kept. That may well explain why the spell didn't stop Hagrid:
> the owners of the secret were no longer there to have a secret to be
> kept, so their secret as such ceased to exist. It's like James and Lily
> had a contract with Peter, and when James and Lily were dead then
> Peter, the only surviving party to the contract, had nobody left with
> whom to have the contract, so the contract is null and void and Peter
> is no longer the Secret Keeper.
>
> --
> Alex Clark
>
> Mild mood art lover (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)
>
Ah, but Harry was still alive.

BB

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #247654 ]

Do, 13 April 2006 14:34

Alex Clark

Brent Braten wrote:
> "Alex Clark" <alexbclark [at] pennswoods.net> wrote in message
> news:1144754568.660019.150000 [at] z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > IIRC the caster of the spell had died, so maybe the spell had expired.
> > But it wasn't just the caster who died, it was the people whose secret
> > was being kept. That may well explain why the spell didn't stop Hagrid:
> > the owners of the secret were no longer there to have a secret to be
> > kept, so their secret as such ceased to exist. It's like James and Lily
> > had a contract with Peter, and when James and Lily were dead then
> > Peter, the only surviving party to the contract, had nobody left with
> > whom to have the contract, so the contract is null and void and Peter
> > is no longer the Secret Keeper.
> >
> Ah, but Harry was still alive.

But Harry was not a party to the contract, he just went with the secret
that they were using the spell for. The site of the house was still
there too, though the house itself was destroyed, and it was more the
location of the house than its physical structure that they meant to
hide. But when one party to the contract is gone, in theory that would
mean that house or no house, the site will no longer be hidden.

--
Alex Clark

I'm Moll, toad drover (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #247828 ]

So, 16 April 2006 01:40

Eric Bohlman

"Alex Clark" <alexbclark [at] pennswoods.net> wrote in
news:1144755127.773290.190770 [at] z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> I doubt that. It seems to me that the spell creates the secret: as long
> as you choose a Secret Keeper who is able to share your secret with
> anyone, the spell will make something secret from everyone else. It
> doesn't matter whether the secret was a secret before, the charm only
> requires that the secret-to-be must be shared with someone who has the
> power to pass it on.
>
> So the spell doesn't protect an existing secret (unless it happens to
> be used for something that's secret anyway), it makes something secret.

I don't find that plausible. First of all, the most common use of
"secret" implies that not only is a certain bit of knowledge presently
known to only a few people, but that it always has been. When it is used
to refer to "lost knowledge" (like talking about "ancient secrets" when
promoting quack remedies, "secrets" that, according to the promotion, are
available to anyone with sufficient available credit on their card) it's
being used metaphorically.

There's no precedent in real life for a non-secret turning into a secret,
and there's no precedent for it in the Potterverse either. The fact that
the Potters were hiding in Godric's Hollow was never known by more than
their closest associates, and the location of the headquarters of the
OOTP was, at the time the charm was cast, known only to the members of
the OOTP.

Re: A New Secret Keeper Question [message #253360 ]

Do, 27 April 2006 01:18

Jan van Aalderen

Brent Braten wrote:
> I know it is rather trivial, being as it happened the night before the first
> book opens, but I am wondering how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters
> (Harry) if Peter was the Secret Keeper?
>
> The point I am trying to get at is that in book three - when Fudge is
> visiting with McG. in the Three Broomsticks - McG. says the Sirius was the
> Potters' secret keeper. But if Hagrid knew where to find them then Peter
> must have told him. This, in the very least, should have cast some doubt
> upon Sirius' guilt and earned him a trial.
>
> I'm almost sorry for pointing out this glaring inconsistancy but therer it
> is. Any thoughts?
>
> BB
>
>

I don't see the inconsistency you mention. One should differentiate
between the location and the ability to find it. It is the latter which
the secret keeper protects, not the former.

Logically, most dwellings are known to a number of people before the
Fidelius charm is applied. However, after it has been applied, none can
find that address unless the SK tells them the location. Also, no one
but the SK can tell it to anyone else.

Note: if the SK is just as irresponsible in securitymatters as DD and
writes it down, anyone who lays his hands on that piece of parchment
will be able to find the address if it is not also unplottable - which
GP for one is not, as the houses around it are also GP and muggle-area,
hence plottable or at least can be found on any mugglemap of London.

--
Vriendelijke groet,
Jan van Aalderen, Amstelveen
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*
Wie mijn raad volgt, doet zulks geheel op eigen risico!
Reactie op usenetpostjes in de groep. Email zie ik niet.
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*

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