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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » OOTP question
OOTP question [message #245407] Di, 04 April 2006 10:06
wizardofsnog  
Ok.. we know that Dumbledor was the secret keeper for the OOTP.
Snape said to beltrix and Narcissa, that he could not tell the dark lord
where the OOTP HQ was, even though he knew, because he was not secret
keeper.

If Dumbledor was the keeper, and hes dead now at the end of book 6, How
can anyone else join the OOTP and go to HQ, unless Dumbledore changed the
keeper to someone else, or they move the HQ to a new location and they
get a new secret keeper for that new location?

If I remember right, at the 3rd book, Sirus and Remus were Explaining
things to Harry in the shreaking shack, and thats when one of them told
Harry that Serius was originaly the keeper but he convinced James (Harrys
dad) to switch keepers to Peter (wormtail) who later betrayed them.
Nothing was said about if the secret was created after Serius convinced
them to change their intended keeper.
Re: OOTP question [message #245430 ] Di, 04 April 2006 19:09
aaron  
wizardofsnog wrote:
> Ok.. we know that Dumbledor was the secret keeper for the OOTP.
> Snape said to beltrix and Narcissa, that he could not tell the dark lord
> where the OOTP HQ was, even though he knew, because he was not secret
> keeper.
>
> If Dumbledor was the keeper, and hes dead now at the end of book 6, How
> can anyone else join the OOTP and go to HQ, unless Dumbledore changed the
> keeper to someone else, or they move the HQ to a new location and they
> get a new secret keeper for that new location?

The secret cannot be spoken by anyone not the secret keeper, but it can
still be known. It can be written down.

Also, yes, I would think it only makes sense that if a secret keeper
dies, the one who made the secret keeper can make another secret
keeper...and if the one who designated the secret keeper is the secret
keeper him/herself, then the magic is released upon their death.

It's all speculation, but it would be a good idea if JKR wrote it to
work that way.

> If I remember right, at the 3rd book, Sirus and Remus were Explaining
> things to Harry in the shreaking shack, and thats when one of them told
> Harry that Serius was originaly the keeper but he convinced James (Harrys
> dad) to switch keepers to Peter (wormtail) who later betrayed them.
> Nothing was said about if the secret was created after Serius convinced
> them to change their intended keeper.

It must have been. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been a point in
changing it. You only want to have one secret keeper.

-Aaron
Re: OOTP question [message #245437 ] Di, 04 April 2006 22:18
drusilla  
Aaron escribió:
> wizardofsnog wrote:
>> Ok.. we know that Dumbledor was the secret keeper for the OOTP.
>> Snape said to beltrix and Narcissa, that he could not tell the dark lord
>> where the OOTP HQ was, even though he knew, because he was not secret
>> keeper.
>>
>> If Dumbledor was the keeper, and hes dead now at the end of book 6, How
>> can anyone else join the OOTP and go to HQ, unless Dumbledore changed the
>> keeper to someone else, or they move the HQ to a new location and they
>> get a new secret keeper for that new location?
>
> The secret cannot be spoken by anyone not the secret keeper, but it can
> still be known. It can be written down.
>

Can be? Because then, Snape should send Bellatrix a letter about.
Re: OOTP question [message #245441 ] Di, 04 April 2006 23:43
wadkin2000  
drusilla wrote:
> Aaron escribi=F3:
> > wizardofsnog wrote:
> >> Ok.. we know that Dumbledor was the secret keeper for the OOTP.
> >> Snape said to beltrix and Narcissa, that he could not tell the dark lo=
rd
> >> where the OOTP HQ was, even though he knew, because he was not secret
> >> keeper.
> >>
> >> If Dumbledor was the keeper, and hes dead now at the end of book 6, How
> >> can anyone else join the OOTP and go to HQ, unless Dumbledore changed =
the
> >> keeper to someone else, or they move the HQ to a new location and they
> >> get a new secret keeper for that new location?
> >
> > The secret cannot be spoken by anyone not the secret keeper, but it can
> > still be known. It can be written down.
> >
>
> Can be? Because then, Snape should send Bellatrix a letter about.


I believe it can only be written by the secret keeper. In OOTP, when
the "Harry Squad" arrived at 12GP, Harry was handed a piece of paper
that said something to the effect that the headquarters for the OOTP is
at 12GP. I'm assuming that was written by DD himself.
Re: OOTP question [message #245462 ] Mi, 05 April 2006 02:36
richard e white  
wizardofsnog wrote:

> Ok.. we know that Dumbledor was the secret keeper for the OOTP.
> Snape said to beltrix and Narcissa, that he could not tell the dark lord
> where the OOTP HQ was, even though he knew, because he was not secret
> keeper.
>
> If Dumbledor was the keeper, and hes dead now at the end of book 6, How
> can anyone else join the OOTP and go to HQ,

Unless the secret keeper can be changed or the painting can tell them, the
anser is no. They could join but not go there.


> unless Dumbledore changed the
> keeper to someone else, or they move the HQ to a new location and they
> get a new secret keeper for that new location?

The recasting is the only chance. And my guess is it would be easyer to make
a new group and do the secret for it.

>
>
> If I remember right, at the 3rd book, Sirus and Remus were Explaining
> things to Harry in the shreaking shack, and thats when one of them told
> Harry that Serius was originaly the keeper but he convinced James (Harrys
> dad) to switch keepers to Peter (wormtail) who later betrayed them.
> Nothing was said about if the secret was created after Serius convinced
> them to change their intended keeper.

Now that is a intresting thought. And I don't know witch it is at the
moment. But If DD died he took the secret with him. unless he changed before
he went.




--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: OOTP question [message #245468 ] Mi, 05 April 2006 05:10
Petrea Mitchell  
At 4 Apr 2006 10:09:55 -0700,
Aaron <aaronsan [at] msn.com> strode forth and proclaimed:

> Also, yes, I would think it only makes sense that if a secret keeper
> dies, the one who made the secret keeper can make another secret
> keeper...and if the one who designated the secret keeper is the secret
> keeper him/herself, then the magic is released upon their death.
>
> It's all speculation, but it would be a good idea if JKR wrote it to
> work that way.

Unfortunately, she hasn't. When a Secret-Keeper dies, the secret can't
be given to anyone else. Says so here:

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_poll.cfm


--
/
Petrea Mitchell <|> <|> <pravn [at] m5p.com> <mitchep [at] osm.com>
"Deconstruct *this*, Pink Boy!" ---Joe Merlino
"Happy motoring. And take that brassiere off your head." ---Dave Barry
Re: OOTP question [message #245472 ] Mi, 05 April 2006 07:43
Thomas Madura  
Petrea Mitchell wrote:

> At 4 Apr 2006 10:09:55 -0700,
> Aaron <aaronsan [at] msn.com> strode forth and proclaimed:
>
>
>>Also, yes, I would think it only makes sense that if a secret keeper
>>dies, the one who made the secret keeper can make another secret
>>keeper...and if the one who designated the secret keeper is the secret
>>keeper him/herself, then the magic is released upon their death.
>>
>>It's all speculation, but it would be a good idea if JKR wrote it to
>>work that way.
>
>
> Unfortunately, she hasn't. When a Secret-Keeper dies, the secret can't
> be given to anyone else. Says so here:
>
> http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_poll.cfm
>
>


Yes - but there is a question that has always been left unanswered.

12 GP - was a place already known to the Black Family and their relative
- including Bellatrix and Narcissa and Draco.


The secret was that the OOP headquarters was 12 GP. No one would be able
to know that except from Dumbledore.

However - 12 GP was the Black Family Residence - and it seems illogical
that they would suddenly forget where the family lives.
Re: OOTP question [message #245483 ] Mi, 05 April 2006 10:23
Toon  
On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 03:06:14 -0500, wizardofsnog
<spambucket [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

>Ok.. we know that Dumbledor was the secret keeper for the OOTP.
>Snape said to beltrix and Narcissa, that he could not tell the dark lord
>where the OOTP HQ was, even though he knew, because he was not secret
>keeper.
>
>If Dumbledor was the keeper, and hes dead now at the end of book 6, How
>can anyone else join the OOTP and go to HQ, unless Dumbledore changed the
>keeper to someone else, or they move the HQ to a new location and they
>get a new secret keeper for that new location?

They can still have DD's paper with the info on it.

>If I remember right, at the 3rd book, Sirus and Remus were Explaining
>things to Harry in the shreaking shack, and thats when one of them told
>Harry that Serius was originaly the keeper but he convinced James (Harrys
>dad) to switch keepers to Peter (wormtail) who later betrayed them.
>Nothing was said about if the secret was created after Serius convinced
>them to change their intended keeper.

Actually, that's the whole point. It was, so Sirius would never know,
so he could never be tortured into giving them up.
Re: OOTP question [message #245494 ] Mi, 05 April 2006 14:12
aaron  
drusilla wrote:
> Aaron escribi=F3:
> > wizardofsnog wrote:
> >> Ok.. we know that Dumbledor was the secret keeper for the OOTP.
> >> Snape said to beltrix and Narcissa, that he could not tell the dark lo=
rd
> >> where the OOTP HQ was, even though he knew, because he was not secret
> >> keeper.
> >>
> >> If Dumbledor was the keeper, and hes dead now at the end of book 6, How
> >> can anyone else join the OOTP and go to HQ, unless Dumbledore changed =
the
> >> keeper to someone else, or they move the HQ to a new location and they
> >> get a new secret keeper for that new location?
> >
> > The secret cannot be spoken by anyone not the secret keeper, but it can
> > still be known. It can be written down.
> >
>
> Can be? Because then, Snape should send Bellatrix a letter about.

Didn't DD write it down for Harry? Someone did, right? Check OOTP.

Too bad Bella doesn't know about this loophole.=20

-Aaron
Re: OOTP question [message #245495 ] Mi, 05 April 2006 14:16
aaron  
Petrea Mitchell wrote:
> At 4 Apr 2006 10:09:55 -0700,
> Aaron <aaronsan [at] msn.com> strode forth and proclaimed:
>
> > Also, yes, I would think it only makes sense that if a secret keeper
> > dies, the one who made the secret keeper can make another secret
> > keeper...and if the one who designated the secret keeper is the secret
> > keeper him/herself, then the magic is released upon their death.
> >
> > It's all speculation, but it would be a good idea if JKR wrote it to
> > work that way.
>
> Unfortunately, she hasn't. When a Secret-Keeper dies, the secret can't
> be given to anyone else. Says so here:

Where in that does it say that someone who knows the secret cannot make
another secret keeper?

Where in that does it say, in other words, that if PP died, James
Potter couldn't have then made Sirius the secret keeper, and Sirius
then could have given the location of the Potter residence away to
everyone (if he were so inclined)?

As I said, if the secret keeper and the only one knowing the secret are
the same person, then if he/she dies the secret dies with them. If not,
there must be someone who knows the secret that can make another secret
keeper. Does this make sense?

> Petrea Mitchell

-Aaron
Re: OOTP question [message #245512 ] Mi, 05 April 2006 17:34
drusilla  
Aaron escribió:
> drusilla wrote:
>> Aaron escribió:
>>> wizardofsnog wrote:
>>>> Ok.. we know that Dumbledor was the secret keeper for the OOTP.
>>>> Snape said to beltrix and Narcissa, that he could not tell the dark lord
>>>> where the OOTP HQ was, even though he knew, because he was not secret
>>>> keeper.
>>>>
>>>> If Dumbledor was the keeper, and hes dead now at the end of book 6, How
>>>> can anyone else join the OOTP and go to HQ, unless Dumbledore changed the
>>>> keeper to someone else, or they move the HQ to a new location and they
>>>> get a new secret keeper for that new location?
>>> The secret cannot be spoken by anyone not the secret keeper, but it can
>>> still be known. It can be written down.
>>>
>> Can be? Because then, Snape should send Bellatrix a letter about.
>
> Didn't DD write it down for Harry? Someone did, right? Check OOTP.

But DD is/was the secret keeper: he is the only one knowing the secret.
Perhaps he wrote it down and recast the spell later.
Re: OOTP question [message #245550 ] Do, 06 April 2006 04:04
richard e white  
Aaron wrote:

> drusilla wrote:
> > Aaron escribi=F3:
> > > wizardofsnog wrote:
> > >> Ok.. we know that Dumbledor was the secret keeper for the OOTP.
> > >> Snape said to beltrix and Narcissa, that he could not tell the dar=
k lord
> > >> where the OOTP HQ was, even though he knew, because he was not sec=
ret
> > >> keeper.
> > >>
> > >> If Dumbledor was the keeper, and hes dead now at the end of book 6=
, How
> > >> can anyone else join the OOTP and go to HQ, unless Dumbledore chan=
ged the
> > >> keeper to someone else, or they move the HQ to a new location and =
they
> > >> get a new secret keeper for that new location?
> > >
> > > The secret cannot be spoken by anyone not the secret keeper, but it=
can
> > > still be known. It can be written down.
> > >
> >
> > Can be? Because then, Snape should send Bellatrix a letter about.
>
> Didn't DD write it down for Harry? Someone did, right? Check OOTP.
>
> Too bad Bella doesn't know about this loophole.
>
> -Aaron

Yes DD wrote down the note that Mad eye showed him. and JKR has said tha=
t only dd
could have done it. The question is does it have to be for a certain per=
son or
could anyone who saw that paper have gotten in? from mad eyes nerves and=
how fast
he torched the paper I think anyone could have read it.
so if dd left any other papers that said the same thing more people could=
learn.
and I still woun't toss out the idea that the painting might be able to t=
ell some
one.



--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: OOTP question [message #245551 ] Do, 06 April 2006 04:05
richard e white  
drusilla wrote:

> Aaron escribi=F3:
> > drusilla wrote:
> >> Aaron escribi=F3:
> >>> wizardofsnog wrote:
> >>>> Ok.. we know that Dumbledor was the secret keeper for the OOTP.
> >>>> Snape said to beltrix and Narcissa, that he could not tell the dar=
k lord
> >>>> where the OOTP HQ was, even though he knew, because he was not sec=
ret
> >>>> keeper.
> >>>>
> >>>> If Dumbledor was the keeper, and hes dead now at the end of book 6=
, How
> >>>> can anyone else join the OOTP and go to HQ, unless Dumbledore chan=
ged the
> >>>> keeper to someone else, or they move the HQ to a new location and =
they
> >>>> get a new secret keeper for that new location?
> >>> The secret cannot be spoken by anyone not the secret keeper, but it=
can
> >>> still be known. It can be written down.
> >>>
> >> Can be? Because then, Snape should send Bellatrix a letter about.
> >
> > Didn't DD write it down for Harry? Someone did, right? Check OOTP.
>
> But DD is/was the secret keeper: he is the only one knowing the secret.=

> Perhaps he wrote it down and recast the spell later.

No need. DD could write it down at any time. but as he was the secret k=
eeper he
was the only one that could do that.


--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: OOTP question [message #245552 ] Do, 06 April 2006 04:25
Petrea Mitchell  
At Wed, 05 Apr 2006 05:43:03 GMT,
Thom Madura <Thom-Madura [at] worldnet.att.net> strode forth and proclaimed:

> The secret was that the OOP headquarters was 12 GP. No one would be able
> to know that except from Dumbledore.
>
> However - 12 GP was the Black Family Residence - and it seems illogical
> that they would suddenly forget where the family lives.

Certainly.


--
/
Petrea Mitchell <|> <|> <pravn [at] m5p.com> <mitchep [at] osm.com>
"One would think a pie could be equipped with a decent guidance system."
---Chris French
Re: OOTP question [message #245553 ] Do, 06 April 2006 04:28
Petrea Mitchell  
At 5 Apr 2006 05:16:22 -0700,
Aaron <aaronsan [at] msn.com> strode forth and proclaimed:

> Where in that does it say, in other words, that if PP died, James
> Potter couldn't have then made Sirius the secret keeper, and Sirius
> then could have given the location of the Potter residence away to
> everyone (if he were so inclined)?

"When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it
another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment
of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the
hidden information, but nobody else. ... a secret ... is enchanted so that
it is protected by a single Keeper ... Thenceforth nobody else -- not even
the subjects of the secret themselves -- can divulge the secret."

> As I said, if the secret keeper and the only one knowing the secret are
> the same person, then if he/she dies the secret dies with them. If not,
> there must be someone who knows the secret that can make another secret
> keeper. Does this make sense?

The question makes sense. It just doesn't work that way.


--
/
Petrea Mitchell <|> <|> <pravn [at] m5p.com> <mitchep [at] osm.com>
"One would think a pie could be equipped with a decent guidance system."
---Chris French
Re: OOTP question [message #245569 ] Do, 06 April 2006 10:19
Toon  
On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 05:43:03 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>However - 12 GP was the Black Family Residence - and it seems illogical
>that they would suddenly forget where the family lives.

I don't think they'll forget, just not find it and think Sirius did
something to it, or maybe Kreacher.
Re: OOTP question [message #245610 ] Do, 06 April 2006 19:50
aaron  
Petrea Mitchell wrote:
> At 5 Apr 2006 05:16:22 -0700,
> Aaron <aaronsan [at] msn.com> strode forth and proclaimed:
>
> > Where in that does it say, in other words, that if PP died, James
> > Potter couldn't have then made Sirius the secret keeper, and Sirius
> > then could have given the location of the Potter residence away to
> > everyone (if he were so inclined)?
>
> "When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it
> another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment
> of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the
> hidden information, but nobody else. ... a secret ... is enchanted so that
> it is protected by a single Keeper ... Thenceforth nobody else -- not even
> the subjects of the secret themselves -- can divulge the secret."

What about the person who made them a secret keeper? It doesn't make
sense that said person cannot make another secret keeper.

> > As I said, if the secret keeper and the only one knowing the secret are
> > the same person, then if he/she dies the secret dies with them. If not,
> > there must be someone who knows the secret that can make another secret
> > keeper. Does this make sense?
>
> The question makes sense. It just doesn't work that way.

I disagree. Consider this: you're referring to a "secret" that more
than one person (the SK) knows.

James and Lily Potter know the secret as well. They were the ones who
made the secret in the first place.

DD isn't the only one who knows where the OOTP HQ is. He's just the
only one who can tell someone else about it. Someone must have made him
the SK.

So, shouldn't someone else be able to become the SK, since the "secret"
isn't actually a secret? Other people know about it. It can't work as
described above.

I don't think JKR thought this one out well enough.

> Petrea Mitchell

-Aaron
Re: OOTP question [message #245611 ] Do, 06 April 2006 19:54
aaron  
drusilla wrote:
> But DD is/was the secret keeper: he is the only one knowing the secret.
> Perhaps he wrote it down and recast the spell later.

No, he is NOT the only one who knows the secret. You're misinterpreting
what "secret keeper" means.

So who made him the secret keeper? Shouldn't they be able to make
another person the secret keeper?

See my other post. I don't think JKR thought this through well enough.
If others know the secret, and you cannot make yourself a secret
keeper, then whoever did make the first secret keeper should be able to
make another one after the death of the first secret keeper.

Would it make sense to make yourself the secret keeper? I suppose you
could, but then why did Lily and James not do that? If you could, this
would eliminate my issues with the OOTP HQ secret.

It still doesn't explain what would have happened if PP had died before
telling V about the Potter residence. Could they have made another SK,
since they made the first one and he died?

I understand JKR's wording seems to say no, but it doesn't talk about
who makes the SK, or how. It only talks about others who "know the
secret." She needs to refine this concept further.

-Aaron
Re: OOTP question [message #245636 ] Fr, 07 April 2006 01:19
Thomas Madura  
drusilla wrote:
> Aaron escribió:
>
>> drusilla wrote:
>>
>>> Aaron escribió:
>>>
>>>> wizardofsnog wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ok.. we know that Dumbledor was the secret keeper for the OOTP.
>>>>> Snape said to beltrix and Narcissa, that he could not tell the dark
>>>>> lord
>>>>> where the OOTP HQ was, even though he knew, because he was not secret
>>>>> keeper.
>>>>>
>>>>> If Dumbledor was the keeper, and hes dead now at the end of book 6,
>>>>> How
>>>>> can anyone else join the OOTP and go to HQ, unless Dumbledore
>>>>> changed the
>>>>> keeper to someone else, or they move the HQ to a new location and they
>>>>> get a new secret keeper for that new location?
>>>>
>>>> The secret cannot be spoken by anyone not the secret keeper, but it can
>>>> still be known. It can be written down.
>>>>
>>> Can be? Because then, Snape should send Bellatrix a letter about.
>>
>>
>> Didn't DD write it down for Harry? Someone did, right? Check OOTP.
>
>
> But DD is/was the secret keeper: he is the only one knowing the secret.
> Perhaps he wrote it down and recast the spell later.

No - the secret keeper is NOT the only one who knows - they are only the
one that is keeing the secret. The secret appears to be between people.
WHile Peter was the secret keeper for James and Lily - both James and
Lily knew where they were(presumably Harry was too young). Peter was
keeping the secret FOR LIly and James - and upon the Death of Peter -
Lily and James could have selected another.

Same with Dumbledore - he was secretkeeper for the OOP. Obviously, the
OOP know where their headquarters is - and the secret was being kept FOR
Them.


My question remains - Narcissa and Bellatrix both would have know 12 gp
as the Black House LONG before it was used by the OOP. THey are direct
relatives. So - they would have know the location of the house. If it
suddenly disappeared - they would notice that too -. SO - the secret
has to be that the house is the headquarters of the OOP - not the
location of the house. Thankfully - they have no reason to visit the
house - which must help JKR.
Re: OOTP question [message #245654 ] Fr, 07 April 2006 03:39
Petrea Mitchell  
At 6 Apr 2006 10:50:17 -0700,
Aaron <aaronsan [at] msn.com> strode forth and proclaimed:
>
> Petrea Mitchell wrote:

> > "When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it
> > another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment
> > of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the
> > hidden information, but nobody else. ... a secret ... is enchanted so that
> > it is protected by a single Keeper ... Thenceforth nobody else -- not even
> > the subjects of the secret themselves -- can divulge the secret."
>
> What about the person who made them a secret keeper? It doesn't make
> sense that said person cannot make another secret keeper.

The person who made them a Secret-Keeper is included in "nobody".

> I don't think JKR thought this one out well enough.

I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt until the end of book
7. This is tied in with how death works in the Potterverse, which hasn't
been explained much, but probably will be in the last book.


--
/
Petrea Mitchell <|> <|> <pravn [at] m5p.com> <mitchep [at] osm.com>
"Get up, man! Stop fussing about that silly little hole in your head."
---The Goon Show ("The Treasure of Loch Lomond")
Re: OOTP question [message #245682 ] Fr, 07 April 2006 10:03
Toon  
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 23:19:20 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>drusilla wrote:
>> Aaron escribió:
>>
>>> drusilla wrote:
>>>
>>>> Aaron escribió:
>>>>
>>>>> wizardofsnog wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok.. we know that Dumbledor was the secret keeper for the OOTP.
>>>>>> Snape said to beltrix and Narcissa, that he could not tell the dark
>>>>>> lord
>>>>>> where the OOTP HQ was, even though he knew, because he was not secret
>>>>>> keeper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If Dumbledor was the keeper, and hes dead now at the end of book 6,
>>>>>> How
>>>>>> can anyone else join the OOTP and go to HQ, unless Dumbledore
>>>>>> changed the
>>>>>> keeper to someone else, or they move the HQ to a new location and they
>>>>>> get a new secret keeper for that new location?
>>>>>
>>>>> The secret cannot be spoken by anyone not the secret keeper, but it can
>>>>> still be known. It can be written down.
>>>>>
>>>> Can be? Because then, Snape should send Bellatrix a letter about.
>>>
>>>
>>> Didn't DD write it down for Harry? Someone did, right? Check OOTP.
>>
>>
>> But DD is/was the secret keeper: he is the only one knowing the secret.
>> Perhaps he wrote it down and recast the spell later.
>
>No - the secret keeper is NOT the only one who knows - they are only the
>one that is keeing the secret. The secret appears to be between people.
>WHile Peter was the secret keeper for James and Lily - both James and
>Lily knew where they were(presumably Harry was too young). Peter was
>keeping the secret FOR LIly and James - and upon the Death of Peter -
>Lily and James could have selected another.
>
>Same with Dumbledore - he was secretkeeper for the OOP. Obviously, the
>OOP know where their headquarters is - and the secret was being kept FOR
>Them.
>
>
>My question remains - Narcissa and Bellatrix both would have know 12 gp
>as the Black House LONG before it was used by the OOP. THey are direct
>relatives. So - they would have know the location of the house. If it
>suddenly disappeared - they would notice that too -. SO - the secret
>has to be that the house is the headquarters of the OOP - not the
>location of the house. Thankfully - they have no reason to visit the
>house - which must help JKR.

Yes, they'd show up, and not see the Order there at all (like V
looking in the window and not see the Potters).

Now, was the house hidden from everybody, or just from the FC? As
that can mean the Baddies will find a missing house.
Re: OOTP question [message #245717 ] Fr, 07 April 2006 15:05
aaron  
Toon wrote:
> >My question remains - Narcissa and Bellatrix both would have know 12 gp
> >as the Black House LONG before it was used by the OOP. THey are direct
> >relatives. So - they would have know the location of the house. If it
> >suddenly disappeared - they would notice that too -. SO - the secret
> >has to be that the house is the headquarters of the OOP - not the
> >location of the house. Thankfully - they have no reason to visit the
> >house - which must help JKR.
>
> Yes, they'd show up, and not see the Order there at all (like V
> looking in the window and not see the Potters).

Grr!

Stop making shit up! We know for a fact what they would "see." They'd
show up, and not see the house there. They'd see number 10, and then
number 14, just like Harry did. He was (almost) as sure there would be
a number 12 as Bella would be.

So, then, what would happen next? Wouldn't it be pretty obvious to
Bella that number 12 was protected by some sort of charm? Even more so,
wouldn't it be pretty obvious that said charm would have to be the
Fidelius charm?

The question is, then, what next? She KNOWS the house should be there.
What can she DO about it?

> Now, was the house hidden from everybody, or just from the FC? As
> that can mean the Baddies will find a missing house.

No. Read again. No one can SEE the house, until they know the secret.

-Aaron
Re: OOTP question [message #245775 ] Sa, 08 April 2006 02:04
richard e white  
Aaron wrote:

> drusilla wrote:
> > But DD is/was the secret keeper: he is the only one knowing the secret.
> > Perhaps he wrote it down and recast the spell later.
>
> No, he is NOT the only one who knows the secret. You're misinterpreting
> what "secret keeper" means.
>
> So who made him the secret keeper?

if we go by what black told harry in book 5 DD made him self the secret
keeper.
It is not much to go on but black says that after DD's spells and charms
number 12 is the safest place in britin. Tho black also mentioned that his
father had put every muggle repelling charm known or something like that.


> Shouldn't they be able to make
> another person the secret keeper?

No. The secret was hiden in DD's sole. when DD's sole left this world the
secret went with him. But they could cast it again useing a new secret that
is close to the same. IE Harry is hideing the order of the phoenix at number
12 gm.
Or they desolve the order of the phoenix. breaking the old secret and make
the DA and hide it the same way.

>
> See my other post. I don't think JKR thought this through well enough.
> If others know the secret, and you cannot make yourself a secret
> keeper, then whoever did make the first secret keeper should be able to
> make another one after the death of the first secret keeper.

No the secret is gone from this world. it would be easyer to just start over
again.

>
>
> Would it make sense to make yourself the secret keeper? I suppose you
> could, but then why did Lily and James not do that? If you could, this
> would eliminate my issues with the OOTP HQ secret.

That is what DD seam to have done. The reason that you might not want to do
this is for others to be able to find you. if the secret keeper is in side
the charm then if all on the out side are killed no one can get to you.
The reason for lily and James not doing this is they trusted there friends.

>
>
> It still doesn't explain what would have happened if PP had died before
> telling V about the Potter residence. Could they have made another SK,
> since they made the first one and he died?

No. again the secret is in the sole of the secret keeper and when the sole
leaves this world it takes the secret with it. The only way to give the
secret to another would be to bring the sole back from where ever they go
after death. only then could you get the secret to put it in another sole.
and if you could do that the dementors would not be as sacrey to magical
people.

>
>
> I understand JKR's wording seems to say no, but it doesn't talk about
> who makes the SK, or how. It only talks about others who "know the
> secret." She needs to refine this concept further.

No. she has refined it. you need to look at her thoughts on death and soles
and why there is no resurrection in her world by magic.


--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: OOTP question [message #245776 ] Sa, 08 April 2006 02:13
richard e white  
Aaron wrote:

> Toon wrote:
> > >My question remains - Narcissa and Bellatrix both would have know 12 gp
> > >as the Black House LONG before it was used by the OOP. THey are direct
> > >relatives. So - they would have know the location of the house. If it
> > >suddenly disappeared - they would notice that too -. SO - the secret
> > >has to be that the house is the headquarters of the OOP - not the
> > >location of the house. Thankfully - they have no reason to visit the
> > >house - which must help JKR.
> >
> > Yes, they'd show up, and not see the Order there at all (like V
> > looking in the window and not see the Potters).
>
> Grr!
>
> Stop making shit up! We know for a fact what they would "see." They'd
> show up, and not see the house there. They'd see number 10, and then
> number 14, just like Harry did. He was (almost) as sure there would be
> a number 12 as Bella would be.
>
> So, then, what would happen next? Wouldn't it be pretty obvious to
> Bella that number 12 was protected by some sort of charm? Even more so,
> wouldn't it be pretty obvious that said charm would have to be the
> Fidelius charm?

Not if the charm doesn't let her realize that. remember we have already seen
spells that change how things are seen and rememberd. So she may not remember
where the house is or she may not be able to find or see it. Just how strong
and how far the charm goes we don't know.

> The question is, then, what next? She KNOWS the house should be there.
> That is still a maybe at best.

> What can she DO about it?
>
> > Now, was the house hidden from everybody, or just from the FC? As
> > that can mean the Baddies will find a missing house.

They may not. Harry didn't see that a house number was missing until he read
dd's note that Mad eye showed him. and even then he had to think about the
info for the house to show it's self.
This may mean that no one thinks of it unles hinted at by the secret keeper.

>
> No. Read again. No one can SEE the house, until they know the secret.
>
> -Aaron




--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
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