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Science Fiction » alt.fan.starwars » Anakin Not Worth Saving
Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #245226] Sa, 08 April 2006 13:56
Brett McConnie  
When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's good in
him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him. Even
the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about him. "I
can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to lay down his
own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all the Jedi so
that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do you think? Was
there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was Luke
misguided by the love for a father he never knew?
--
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?"

http://esnips.com/web/MyStarWarsToys
http://groups.msn.com/MyStarWarsCollection/shoebox.msnw
http://www.alt.fan.starwars.freeservers.com/
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #245236 ] Sa, 08 April 2006 20:46
Debbie Proctor  
"Brett McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote in message
news:oxNZf.2132$vy1.1807 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's good
> in him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him.
> Even the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about
> him. "I can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to
> lay down his own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all
> the Jedi so that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do
> you think? Was there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of
> redemption or was Luke misguided by the love for a father he never knew?

Are you saying the fulfillment of the prophecy should not have been?

Debbie Proctor
maraskywalker [at] earthlink.net
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #245237 ] Sa, 08 April 2006 22:53
Anybody  
In article <oxNZf.2132$vy1.1807 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, "Brett
McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote:

> When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's good in
> him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him. Even
> the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about him. "I
> can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to lay down his
> own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all the Jedi so
> that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do you think? Was
> there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was Luke
> misguided by the love for a father he never knew?

Anakin's downfall started in Episode I when he left his mother
Tatooine. Before that he was a good person and still is inside, but
circumstances have weighed heavily over the intervening years and he's
become more and more confused ... not to mention manipulated by
Palpatine.
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #245246 ] So, 09 April 2006 08:57
Brett McConnie  
"Deborah A Proctor" <maraskywalker [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:CyTZf.1587$Fy2.967 [at] newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Brett McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote in message
> news:oxNZf.2132$vy1.1807 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's good
>> in him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him.
>> Even the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about
>> him. "I can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to
>> lay down his own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of
>> all the Jedi so that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What
>> do you think? Was there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of
>> redemption or was Luke misguided by the love for a father he never knew?
>
> Are you saying the fulfillment of the prophecy should not have been?

No. I'm saying that Anakin was selfish most of his life and didn't truly
love anybody but himself. He did fulfill the prophecy but wrought so much
destruction in his own personal quest for glorification that he should have
been eliminated by the Jedi long ago.
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #245249 ] So, 09 April 2006 15:15
Ruud Bergs  
Anybody wrote:
> In article <oxNZf.2132$vy1.1807 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au>, "Brett
> McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote:
>
>> When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's
>> good in him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's
>> about him. Even the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save
>> Padme, is all about him. "I can't live without her" he says. He
>> should have been willing to lay down his own life to save her but
>> instead he gives up the lives of all the Jedi so that he can gain
>> the power to save her, for himself. What do you think? Was there
>> really anything in Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was Luke
>> misguided by the love for a father he never knew?
>
> Anakin's downfall started in Episode I when he left his mother
> Tatooine. Before that he was a good person and still is inside, but
> circumstances have weighed heavily over the intervening years and he's
> become more and more confused ... not to mention manipulated by
> Palpatine.

That is also my pov. Anakin shows nothing of greed of any kind in TPM. You
know all what Shmi said about him. You are right to say the downfall starts
with him leaving his mother without having time to prepair himself for the
change in his life.

When he made the choice to be wanting to save Padme no matter to what costs,
he was already way down the path of becoming a sith.

*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Greetings Ruud
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #245253 ] So, 09 April 2006 19:37
Debbie Proctor  
"Brett McConnie" <blmcco_nospam_ [at] bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:7f2_f.2745$vy1.1675 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> "Deborah A Proctor" <maraskywalker [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:CyTZf.1587$Fy2.967 [at] newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "Brett McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote in message
>> news:oxNZf.2132$vy1.1807 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>> When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's
>>> good in him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's
>>> about him. Even the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is
>>> all about him. "I can't live without her" he says. He should have been
>>> willing to lay down his own life to save her but instead he gives up the
>>> lives of all the Jedi so that he can gain the power to save her, for
>>> himself. What do you think? Was there really anything in Anakin that was
>>> worthy of redemption or was Luke misguided by the love for a father he
>>> never knew?
>>
>> Are you saying the fulfillment of the prophecy should not have been?
>
> No. I'm saying that Anakin was selfish most of his life and didn't truly
> love anybody but himself. He did fulfill the prophecy but wrought so much
> destruction in his own personal quest for glorification that he should
> have been eliminated by the Jedi long ago.

Why do even the Jedi question as to how the prophecy was fulfilled?

Debbie Proctor
maraskywalker [at] earthlink.net
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #245254 ] So, 09 April 2006 19:40
liverpoolkickass  
Brett McConnie wrote:
> "Deborah A Proctor" <maraskywalker [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:CyTZf.1587$Fy2.967 [at] newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>>"Brett McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote in message
>>news:oxNZf.2132$vy1.1807 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>>>When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's good
>>>in him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him.
>>>Even the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about
>>>him. "I can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to
>>>lay down his own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of
>>>all the Jedi so that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What
>>>do you think? Was there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of
>>>redemption or was Luke misguided by the love for a father he never knew?
>>
>>Are you saying the fulfillment of the prophecy should not have been?
>
>
> No. I'm saying that Anakin was selfish most of his life and didn't truly
> love anybody but himself. He did fulfill the prophecy but wrought so much
> destruction in his own personal quest for glorification that he should have
> been eliminated by the Jedi long ago.
>
>

Yes, but that wasn`t in the script...
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #245255 ] So, 09 April 2006 21:39
Rarebird Nine  
Brett McConnie wrote:

> Was there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was Luke
> misguided by the love for a father he never knew?

Actually, Luke was guided by the Force. In ROTJ, after Yoda and Obi-Wan
finally told Luke that Vader was his father, Luke was able to sense
that "there's still good in him". Padme said the exact same thing right
before she died in ROTS (she was "force-sensitive", or something like
that). Maybe the good that was left in him was just a sliver leftover
from his Tattooine childhood, but when Anakin/Vader saw his flesh and
blood being zapped by Palpatine, it was enough to bring that sliver
out.

Speaking of which, I can think of at least one act of selflessness on
Anakin's part. After he iced Count Dooku in ROTS, he carried the
unconscious Obi-Wan out over his shoulder, even though Palpatine told
him it was a bad idea, and even though he was showing resentment toward
Obi-Wan in AOTC. Anakin wasn't all bad.

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ --

Rarebird's Rock and Roll Rarity Reviews
http://home.att.net/~rarebird9

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ --

To e-mail, substitute "lycos" for "my-deja"
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #246712 ] Mo, 10 April 2006 10:22
Brett McConnie  
"Deborah A Proctor" <maraskywalker [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:TDb_f.1797$BS2.241 [at] newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Why do even the Jedi question as to how the prophecy was fulfilled?

The very nature of prophecy is that its meaning does not become clear until
after the events have taken place. The Jedi didn't know who the Chosen One
would be or how he would bring balance to the Force. Anakin wasn't exactly
the kind of saviour they would have imagined. It was an ancient prophecy and
the Jedi were set in their ways so they didn't really understand it. The
simple fact of the matter is they had no idea what it was all aboutl.
--
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?"

http://esnips.com/web/MyStarWarsToys
http://groups.msn.com/MyStarWarsCollection/shoebox.msnw
http://www.alt.fan.starwars.freeservers.com/
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #246716 ] Mo, 10 April 2006 19:18
Goedel  
Luke, I assume, was never told the complete story of Anakin's life.
The only thing he had heard from Obi-Wan was that Anakin was once a
good man and a good friend who, after being "seduced" by the dark side,
had betrayed and murdered the Jedi. So there is no way Luke could know
that the young Anakin was a spoiled, selfish brat. Neither could he
conceivably know about Anakin's direct involvement in Padm=E9's death
(he only heard from Leia that their mother was "beautiful, but sad").
Luke of course knew that Vader properly (Anakin's alter ego) was evil.
In fact, before Vader told him he was his father, one could safely
assume Luke literally hated him for what he had done to Ben and to his
friends. After he found out Vader's true identity, I guess Luke shifted
the blame (and maybe his anger) to Palpatine whom he saw as the one
who had corrupted Anakin.


Brett McConnie wrote:
> When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's good=
in
> him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him. Ev=
en
> the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about him. "I
> can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to lay down =
his
> own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all the Jedi so
> that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do you think? W=
as
> there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was Luke
> misguided by the love for a father he never knew?
> --
> "Where does he get those wonderful toys?"
>
> http://esnips.com/web/MyStarWarsToys
> http://groups.msn.com/MyStarWarsCollection/shoebox.msnw
> http://www.alt.fan.starwars.freeservers.com/
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #246722 ] Di, 11 April 2006 01:57
Debbie Proctor  
"Brett McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote in message
news:QAo_f.3338$vy1.667 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> "Deborah A Proctor" <maraskywalker [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:TDb_f.1797$BS2.241 [at] newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> Why do even the Jedi question as to how the prophecy was fulfilled?
>
> The very nature of prophecy is that its meaning does not become clear
> until after the events have taken place. The Jedi didn't know who the
> Chosen One would be or how he would bring balance to the Force. Anakin
> wasn't exactly the kind of saviour they would have imagined. It was an
> ancient prophecy and the Jedi were set in their ways so they didn't really
> understand it. The simple fact of the matter is they had no idea what it
> was all aboutl.

Qui Gon didn't question it and he knew exactly what the prophecy meant. And
if Yoda and Obi Wan can communicate with him it still seemed they had no
clue up to and including ROTJ.

Debbie Proctor
maraskywalker [at] earthlink.net
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #246723 ] Di, 11 April 2006 02:27
Darth Mura  
Brett McConnie wrote:
> When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's good in
> him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him. Even
> the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about him. "I
> can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to lay down his
> own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all the Jedi so
> that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do you think? Was
> there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was Luke
> misguided by the love for a father he never knew?
> --

What was worthy was Luke's love and respect for a man he never met and
his faith in a life of conscience and service. From this flows the
need to save not only the worthy, but more especially the unworthy, to
show that all humans, all sentients even, have within them the
potential for good and for love.
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #246725 ] Di, 11 April 2006 04:30
h  
Darth Mura wrote:

> Brett McConnie wrote:
>
>>When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's good in
>>him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him. Even
>>the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about him. "I
>>can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to lay down his
>>own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all the Jedi so
>>that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do you think? Was
>>there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was Luke
>>misguided by the love for a father he never knew?
>>--
>
>
> What was worthy was Luke's love and respect for a man he never met and
> his faith in a life of conscience and service. From this flows the
> need to save not only the worthy, but more especially the unworthy, to
> show that all humans, all sentients even, have within them the
> potential for good and for love.

So Vader/Anakin wasn't worth saving, but Luke did it anyway.

H.
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #246727 ] Di, 11 April 2006 05:07
Billy-Bob Thornhump  
Anakin was a little brat.
Dark Vader was a big brat.
Then they put the suit on him and he was suddenly about a foot taller
and 200 pounds heavier.
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #246728 ] Di, 11 April 2006 05:23
h  
Billy-Bob Thornhump wrote:

> Anakin was a little brat.
> Dark Vader was a big brat.
> Then they put the suit on him and he was suddenly about a foot taller
> and 200 pounds heavier.

That was my problem with Anakin's portrayal. He was never seen as 'good'
when he was older. ( AOTC and ROTS ) If he had, and had his relationship
with Obiwan been closer ( as they started to show in the beginning of
ROTS ) I would have felt for him more when he fell to the Dark Side.

H.
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #246734 ] Di, 11 April 2006 08:33
Solon  
_Brett McConnie_ spoke thusly on 08/04/2006 7:56 AM:
> When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's good in
> him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him. Even
> the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about him. "I
> can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to lay down his
> own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all the Jedi so
> that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do you think? Was
> there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was Luke
> misguided by the love for a father he never knew?

I'm sure he /was/ willing to lay down his own life to save her. In a
way, he did. As far as he knew, going to the dark side was the *only*
way to save Padme.

Anakin reminds me a lot of Travis Bickle. He wants to do good. When he
decides to save you, he's going to do it, whether want it or not.
--
usenetsolon [at] gmail.com
Firefox 1.5 is out! <http://www.mozilla.com>
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #247133 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 11:35
The Man From Mars  
Brett,

Don't you think that maybe the reason Anakin was the way he was, was
because of the things that had happened to him, i.e. losing his mother so he
didn't want to lose his wife. Also, I blame the eventual downfall of Anakin
Skywalker on the Jedi Council themselves. However wrong the Emperor was and
however bad Anakin became, he was a great talent for them that they always
seemed to either not acknowledge or not allow him to achieve greatness. How
many times had he saved Obi Wan? But the Jedi Council always would overlook
his abilities in favor of someone else. I am not saying that they were
completely wrong but I do feel had they not treated Anakin as they did he
would have resisted the Emperor later on but as a result of the Council, he
really had no reason to and hence he became "Darth....VADER!" Enough
babbling, I always enjoy your posts, BTW.

<><


"Brett McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote in message
news:oxNZf.2132$vy1.1807 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's
good in
> him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him.
Even
> the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about him.
"I
> can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to lay down
his
> own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all the Jedi
so
> that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do you think?
Was
> there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was
Luke
> misguided by the love for a father he never knew?
> --
> "Where does he get those wonderful toys?"
>
> http://esnips.com/web/MyStarWarsToys
> http://groups.msn.com/MyStarWarsCollection/shoebox.msnw
> http://www.alt.fan.starwars.freeservers.com/
>
>
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #247138 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 23:20
Solon  
_The Man From Mars_ spoke thusly on 12/04/2006 5:35 AM:
> Don't you think that maybe the reason Anakin was the way he was, was
> because of the things that had happened to him, i.e. losing his mother so he
> didn't want to lose his wife. Also, I blame the eventual downfall of Anakin
> Skywalker on the Jedi Council themselves. However wrong the Emperor was and
> however bad Anakin became, he was a great talent for them that they always
> seemed to either not acknowledge or not allow him to achieve greatness. How
> many times had he saved Obi Wan? But the Jedi Council always would overlook
> his abilities in favor of someone else. I am not saying that they were
> completely wrong but I do feel had they not treated Anakin as they did he
> would have resisted the Emperor later on but as a result of the Council, he
> really had no reason to and hence he became "Darth....VADER!" Enough
> babbling, I always enjoy your posts, BTW.

To quote Obi-wan in the Clone Wars, "Your skills have never been in
question. It is your maturity."

> "Brett McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote in message
> news:oxNZf.2132$vy1.1807 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's
> good in
> > him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him.
> Even
> > the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about him.
> "I
> > can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to lay down
> his
> > own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all the Jedi
> so
> > that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do you think?
> Was
> > there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was
> Luke
> > misguided by the love for a father he never knew?
> > --
> > "Where does he get those wonderful toys?"
> >
> > http://esnips.com/web/MyStarWarsToys
> > http://groups.msn.com/MyStarWarsCollection/shoebox.msnw
> > http://www.alt.fan.starwars.freeservers.com/

What a quoting nightmare.
--
usenetsolon [at] gmail.com
Firefox 1.5 is out! <http://www.mozilla.com>
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #247143 ] Do, 13 April 2006 02:56
Steve Trellert  
The council, which was dominated by Yoda and Mace Windu, never wanted to
train him from the start and if it was not for Obi-Wan threatening to train
him with or without their approval Anakin never would have been a Jedi. The
council basically blew it at the beginning by being too lenient. But, I
think they went along with it based on the fact that 1) Obi-wan was
perceived to be such an asset that they could not afford to lose him at a
time of uncertainty (disturbance in the force). 2) they rationalized it that
the odds of Anakin turning bad would be reduced with some rather than no
council influence (rather than Obi-wan doing it himself) and 3) perhaps
there was already something of an exodus from the jedi order (eg: Count
Dooku) and hence a reduction in its prestige (due to corruption in the
senate and the political situation deteriorating as a whole).



"The Man From Mars" <obies [at] msnn.com> wrote in message
news:123pieb92amn2d7 [at] corp.supernews.com...
> Brett,
>
> Don't you think that maybe the reason Anakin was the way he was, was
> because of the things that had happened to him, i.e. losing his mother so
> he didn't want to lose his wife. Also, I blame the eventual downfall of
> Anakin Skywalker on the Jedi Council themselves. However wrong the
> Emperor was and however bad Anakin became, he was a great talent for them
> that they always seemed to either not acknowledge or not allow him to
> achieve greatness. How many times had he saved Obi Wan? But the Jedi
> Council always would overlook his abilities in favor of someone else. I
> am not saying that they were completely wrong but I do feel had they not
> treated Anakin as they did he would have resisted the Emperor later on but
> as a result of the Council, he really had no reason to and hence he became
> "Darth....VADER!" Enough babbling, I always enjoy your posts, BTW.
>
> <><
>
>
> "Brett McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote in message
> news:oxNZf.2132$vy1.1807 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's
> good in
> > him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him.
> Even
> > the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about him.
> "I
> > can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to lay
> down his
> > own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all the Jedi
> so
> > that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do you think?
> Was
> > there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was
> Luke
> > misguided by the love for a father he never knew?
> > --
> > "Where does he get those wonderful toys?"
> >
> > http://esnips.com/web/MyStarWarsToys
> > http://groups.msn.com/MyStarWarsCollection/shoebox.msnw
> > http://www.alt.fan.starwars.freeservers.com/
> >
> >
>
>
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #247160 ] Do, 13 April 2006 15:42
Revok  
"Brett McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote in message
news:oxNZf.2132$vy1.1807 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's good
> in him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him.
> Even the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about
> him. "I can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to
> lay down his own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all
> the Jedi so that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do
> you think? Was there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of
> redemption or was Luke misguided by the love for a father he never knew?

I think to quote George Lucas 'Anakins big problem is that he can't let go
of things'. I think he has good intentions - but he eventually takes more
and more extreme methods to achieve them.


> --
> "Where does he get those wonderful toys?"
>
> http://esnips.com/web/MyStarWarsToys
> http://groups.msn.com/MyStarWarsCollection/shoebox.msnw
> http://www.alt.fan.starwars.freeservers.com/
>
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #247182 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 02:00
Debbie Proctor  
"Steve Trellert" <vancanste [at] shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Ykh%f.6852$P01.3102 [at] pd7tw3no...
> The council, which was dominated by Yoda and Mace Windu, never wanted to
> train him from the start and if it was not for Obi-Wan threatening to
> train him with or without their approval

Not to be nickpicky but it was Qui Gon Ginn

>Anakin never would have been a Jedi. The council basically blew it at the
>beginning by being too lenient. But, I think they went along with it based
>on the fact that 1) Obi-wan was perceived to be such an asset that they
>could not afford to lose him at a time of uncertainty (disturbance in the
>force). 2) they rationalized it that the odds of Anakin turning bad would
>be reduced with some rather than no council influence (rather than Obi-wan
>doing it himself) and 3) perhaps there was already something of an exodus
>from the jedi order (eg: Count Dooku) and hence a reduction in its prestige
>(due to corruption in the senate and the political situation deteriorating
>as a whole).

And it wasn't the entire council, Yoda was against it and outvoted.

Debbie Proctor
maraskywalker [at] earthlink.net
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #247187 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 03:38
Billy Gruff  
"Deborah A Proctor" <maraskywalker [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> "Steve Trellert" <vancanste [at] shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:Ykh%f.6852$P01.3102 [at] pd7tw3no...
>> The council, which was dominated by Yoda and Mace Windu, never wanted to
>> >> train him from the start and if it was not for Obi-Wan threatening to
>> train him with or without their approval
>
> Not to be nickpicky but it was Qui Gon Ginn

while this is technically true, a case can be made for Obi-Wan as well. from
a certain point of view. though he didn't actively threaten to train Anakin
without the Council's approval, he did promise Qui-Gon that he would, before
they did give their approval, and he was ready to go through with it.

JAC
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #247199 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 09:25
Solon  
_Deborah A Proctor_ spoke thusly on 13/04/2006 8:00 PM:
> "Steve Trellert" <vancanste [at] shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:Ykh%f.6852$P01.3102 [at] pd7tw3no...
>> The council, which was dominated by Yoda and Mace Windu, never wanted to
>> train him from the start and if it was not for Obi-Wan threatening to
>> train him with or without their approval
>
> Not to be nickpicky but it was Qui Gon Ginn

Actually, it was Obi-wan.
"Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without
the approval of the Council if I must."
--
usenetsolon [at] gmail.com
Firefox 1.5 is out! <http://www.mozilla.com>
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #247225 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 02:01
Debbie Proctor  
"Solon" <usenetsolon [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:PaCdnSLgrZ4H06LZRVn-ig [at] giganews.com...
> _Deborah A Proctor_ spoke thusly on 13/04/2006 8:00 PM:
>> "Steve Trellert" <vancanste [at] shaw.ca> wrote in message
>> news:Ykh%f.6852$P01.3102 [at] pd7tw3no...
>>> The council, which was dominated by Yoda and Mace Windu, never wanted to
>>> train him from the start and if it was not for Obi-Wan threatening to
>>> train him with or without their approval
>>
>> Not to be nickpicky but it was Qui Gon Ginn
>
> Actually, it was Obi-wan.
> "Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without
> the approval of the Council if I must."

The poster was relating as to the vote in the Council and at that time it
was Qui Gon

Debbie Proctor
maraskywalker [at] earthlink.net
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #247226 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 02:06
Solon  
_Deborah A Proctor_ spoke thusly on 14/04/2006 8:01 PM:
> "Solon" <usenetsolon [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:PaCdnSLgrZ4H06LZRVn-ig [at] giganews.com...
>> _Deborah A Proctor_ spoke thusly on 13/04/2006 8:00 PM:
>>> "Steve Trellert" <vancanste [at] shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>> news:Ykh%f.6852$P01.3102 [at] pd7tw3no...
>>>> The council, which was dominated by Yoda and Mace Windu, never wanted to
>>>> train him from the start and if it was not for Obi-Wan threatening to
>>>> train him with or without their approval
>>> Not to be nickpicky but it was Qui Gon Ginn
>> Actually, it was Obi-wan.
>> "Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without
>> the approval of the Council if I must."
>
> The poster was relating as to the vote in the Council and at that time it
> was Qui Gon

Qui-Gon didn't threaten anyone. He accepted the council's desision, and
told Anakin, "You won't be, Annie....I'm not allowed to train you, so I
want you to watch me and be mindful...always remember, your focus
determines your reality. Stay close to me and you will be safe."
--
usenetsolon [at] gmail.com
Firefox 1.5 is out! <http://www.mozilla.com>
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #247250 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 21:13
Debbie Proctor  
"Solon" <usenetsolon [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:_pOdnWXnytuMpN3Z4p2dnA [at] giganews.com...
> _Deborah A Proctor_ spoke thusly on 14/04/2006 8:01 PM:
>> "Solon" <usenetsolon [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:PaCdnSLgrZ4H06LZRVn-ig [at] giganews.com...
>>> _Deborah A Proctor_ spoke thusly on 13/04/2006 8:00 PM:
>>>> "Steve Trellert" <vancanste [at] shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>>> news:Ykh%f.6852$P01.3102 [at] pd7tw3no...
>>>>> The council, which was dominated by Yoda and Mace Windu, never wanted
>>>>> to
>>>>> train him from the start and if it was not for Obi-Wan threatening to
>>>>> train him with or without their approval
>>>> Not to be nickpicky but it was Qui Gon Ginn
>>> Actually, it was Obi-wan.
>>> "Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without
>>> the approval of the Council if I must."
>>
>> The poster was relating as to the vote in the Council and at that time it
>> was Qui Gon
>
> Qui-Gon didn't threaten anyone. He accepted the council's desision, and
> told Anakin, "You won't be, Annie....I'm not allowed to train you, so I
> want you to watch me and be mindful...always remember, your focus
> determines your reality. Stay close to me and you will be safe."

Qui Gon knew that just by Anakin watching him Anakin would be able to figure
out how to use the force.

Debbie Proctor
maraskywalker [at] earthlink.net
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #247252 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 22:20
Solon  
_Deborah A Proctor_ spoke thusly on 15/04/2006 3:13 PM:
> "Solon" <usenetsolon [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:_pOdnWXnytuMpN3Z4p2dnA [at] giganews.com...
>> Qui-Gon didn't threaten anyone. He accepted the council's desision, and
>> told Anakin, "You won't be, Annie....I'm not allowed to train you, so I
>> want you to watch me and be mindful...always remember, your focus
>> determines your reality. Stay close to me and you will be safe."
>
> Qui Gon knew that just by Anakin watching him Anakin would be able to figure
> out how to use the force.

But he never *threatened* to train Anakin.
--
usenetsolon [at] gmail.com
Firefox 1.5 is out! <http://www.mozilla.com>
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #249229 ] Di, 18 April 2006 10:59
Simmie Simmerson  
As a child he was the most selfless person, as his mother said, "Never asks
for anything in return." But after she died, things went straight to hell
from that point. I guess losing your only family member who you're not even
allowed to see can do that? I can't figure why the Jedi didn't allow him to
rescue her, as he did have a dream where he was a jedi and freed all the
slaves. I can see why he thought the jedi were evil. They were certainly
arrogant and a bit remorseless.

> When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's good
> in him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him.
> Even the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about
> him. "I can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to
> lay down his own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all
> the Jedi so that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do
> you think? Was there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of
> redemption or was Luke misguided by the love for a father he never knew?
> --
> "Where does he get those wonderful toys?"
>
> http://esnips.com/web/MyStarWarsToys
> http://groups.msn.com/MyStarWarsCollection/shoebox.msnw
> http://www.alt.fan.starwars.freeservers.com/
>
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #249230 ] Di, 18 April 2006 11:06
Simmie Simmerson  
I always thought Yoda and Mace Windu were dickheads to Annakin, even when he
was a child in Phantom Menace (well, ESPECIALLY then...). If I was Annakin I
probably would have killed Mace myself, rather than just letting the Emperor
fry him... imagine always trying to impress those two a-holes all your life,
trying to earn their respect and they just turn their noses up at you
because they never wanted you to be a jedi in the first place.


> Brett,
>
> Don't you think that maybe the reason Anakin was the way he was, was
> because of the things that had happened to him, i.e. losing his mother so
> he didn't want to lose his wife. Also, I blame the eventual downfall of
> Anakin Skywalker on the Jedi Council themselves. However wrong the
> Emperor was and however bad Anakin became, he was a great talent for them
> that they always seemed to either not acknowledge or not allow him to
> achieve greatness. How many times had he saved Obi Wan? But the Jedi
> Council always would overlook his abilities in favor of someone else. I
> am not saying that they were completely wrong but I do feel had they not
> treated Anakin as they did he would have resisted the Emperor later on but
> as a result of the Council, he really had no reason to and hence he became
> "Darth....VADER!" Enough babbling, I always enjoy your posts, BTW.
>
> <><
>
>
> "Brett McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote in message
> news:oxNZf.2132$vy1.1807 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's
> good in
> > him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's about him.
> Even
> > the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme, is all about him.
> "I
> > can't live without her" he says. He should have been willing to lay
> down his
> > own life to save her but instead he gives up the lives of all the Jedi
> so
> > that he can gain the power to save her, for himself. What do you think?
> Was
> > there really anything in Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was
> Luke
> > misguided by the love for a father he never knew?
> > --
> > "Where does he get those wonderful toys?"
> >
> > http://esnips.com/web/MyStarWarsToys
> > http://groups.msn.com/MyStarWarsCollection/shoebox.msnw
> > http://www.alt.fan.starwars.freeservers.com/
> >
> >
>
>
Re: Anakin Not Worth Saving [message #249298 ] Sa, 22 April 2006 00:28
Mike Ward  
"Brett McConnie" <quadinaros [at] australiamail.com> wrote in
news:oxNZf.2132$vy1.1807 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au:

> When I look at Anakin in the prequels I really don't see much that's
> good in him. He only ever seems to be out for himself, everything's
> about him. Even the cause of his downfall, his wanting to save Padme,
> is all about him. "I can't live without her" he says. He should have
> been willing to lay down his own life to save her but instead he gives
> up the lives of all the Jedi so that he can gain the power to save
> her, for himself. What do you think? Was there really anything in
> Anakin that was worthy of redemption or was Luke misguided by the love
> for a father he never knew?

All I can say is I think the reason Luke was the only one who thouht there
was still good in Vader was that he was the only one who didn't know him
before.

GL should do a ROTJ SE SE, and add a line for Ben where he tells Luke, "I
once thought there was still good in him too and then I remember he was an
absolute prick before he even turned to the dark side."
Vorheriges Thema:blasters
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