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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown)
| Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #244046] |
Mo, 03 April 2006 09:15 |
|
nystulc [at] cs.com <nystulc [at] cs.com>
> It seems obvious to me that DD knew about the vow.
It sure isn't obvious to me that Dumbledore knew about that vow
because if he did then the poor man must have been a victim of
Alzheimer's disease. To have as your closest adviser someone who
vowed to sneak Death Eaters into the castle and murder you is just
idiotic, there is no other word for it. If JKR tries to make Snape a
good guy then book 7 is going to be one monumental turkey, you can have
a good Snape or a good book but you can't have both, not now, not
after the bastard murdered Dumbledore; that my friend is quite simple
unforgivable under ANY circumstances.
> At the very least, he had the information Harry provided him.
All he knew was that Snape told Draco that he'd made an unbreakable
vow. Dumbledore clearly believed Snape had made such sounds with his
mouth and that Draco heard them, but equally clearly Dumbledore
didn't think Snape really had made such an evil unbreakable vow. But
we readers know he did.
> He trusts Snape, he has his own reasons
Yes, and Dumbledore had his own reasons for thinking Death Eaters could
never get into the castle, but he was wrong about that too just as he
was wrong about Snape. Dumbledore was very surprised that Death Eaters
had gotten in, but Harry had warned him that something like that might
happen when they
were away finding the (fake) Horcrux; Harry even pinpointed where the
danger was, the Room Of Requirement, and who was behind it, Draco. So
Harry told Dumbledore when the danger would happen, where it would come
from and who was behind it; but when it did happen just as Harry
said it would Dumbledore was surprised.
> Snape is a double agent, and both sides know he is a double agent.
So somebody must be wrong, Snape can't be on both sides. Actually I
think he's on neither side and both Voldemort and Dumbledore are
wrong about Snape. Snape is on Snape's side, he wants to be the
greatest wizard in the world, not Dumbledore and not Voldemort.
> essentially telling him they will protect him by fooling Voldemort
> into thinking that Draco and his family were dead.
> But of course, DD would not want Draco to know this
> if there were a danger he would remain in the enemy camp
Why? How could such general non specific information help the enemy?
> This "extra" text was edited out of the UK edition,
> and we have been told that it will not appear in future US editions.
Told? Who on Earth told you that?
> you are entitled to your opinion
And you are entitled to my opinion too.
Eggplant
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #244067 ] |
Mo, 03 April 2006 15:53 |
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>
> > Snape is a double agent, and both sides know he is a double agent.
>
> So somebody must be wrong, Snape can't be on both sides. Actually I
> think he's on neither side and both Voldemort and Dumbledore are
> wrong about Snape. Snape is on Snape's side, he wants to be the
> greatest wizard in the world, not Dumbledore and not Voldemort.
>
Snape could be trying to trick both DD and LV. I believe that DD knew
that Snape would have betrayed him in the end and doesn't care cause it
fits his plans.
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #244114 ] |
Di, 04 April 2006 04:37 |
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eggplant wrote:
> nystulc [at] cs.com <nystulc [at] cs.com>
>
> > It seems obvious to me that DD knew about the vow.
>
> It sure isn't obvious to me [...]
Right. That's why I said "obvious to me." I am aware that others
disagree.
> that Dumbledore knew about that vow
> because if he did then the poor man must have been a victim of
> Alzheimer's disease. To have as your closest adviser someone who
> vowed to sneak Death Eaters into the castle and murder you is just
> idiotic, there is no other word for it. If JKR tries to make Snape a
> good guy then book 7 is going to be one monumental turkey, you can have
> a good Snape or a good book but you can't have both, not now, not
> after the bastard murdered Dumbledore; that my friend is quite simple
> unforgivable under ANY circumstances.
At this moment, don't care to argue. As DD says to Draco, let us
"agree to disagree" until Book 7 comes out.
> > At the very least, he had the information Harry provided him.
>
> All he knew was that Snape told Draco that he'd made an unbreakable
> vow.
That's was precisely what I meant. I meant to contrast what I
subjectively believe ("obvious to me") with the latter more minimal
conservative conclusions, which states what we all objectively know for
sure -- or what we know "at the very least" -- that DD knows, from
Harry, what words Snape spoke.
> Dumbledore clearly believed Snape had made such sounds with his
> mouth and that Draco heard them, but equally clearly Dumbledore
> didn't think Snape really had made such an evil unbreakable vow. But
> we readers know he did.
>
> > He trusts Snape, he has his own reasons
>
> Yes, and Dumbledore had his own reasons for thinking Death Eaters could
> never get into the castle, but he was wrong about that too just as he
> was wrong about Snape. Dumbledore was very surprised that Death Eaters
> had gotten in, but Harry had warned him that something like that might
> happen when they
> were away finding the (fake) Horcrux; Harry even pinpointed where the
> danger was, the Room Of Requirement, and who was behind it, Draco. So
> Harry told Dumbledore when the danger would happen, where it would come
> from and who was behind it; but when it did happen just as Harry
> said it would Dumbledore was surprised.
Okay, but you have completely changed the subject. Until now, the
discussion has not been about whose side Snape is on. I was not
claiming that DD was right in believing Snape is truly on his side, or
that LV is wrong to think Snape is truly on his side. Clearly one of
them is wrong. But regardless of who is wrong, each of them *thinks*
(or hopes) that he knows something the other does not. He is not
likely to go blabbing to an enemy agent such special information.
DD could be dead wrong about his secret reasons for trusting Snape. LV
could be two steps ahead of DD. He could know all about DD's "secret"
reasons for trusting Snape; and know, furthermore, why Snape is
untrustworthy despite this.
If this wre so, it would be of utmost importance to LV to keep secret
from DD that he already knows the "secret". If DD realized LV knew his
"secret" then DD would realize LV was at least one step ahead of him.
> > Snape is a double agent, and both sides know he is a double agent.
>
> So somebody must be wrong, Snape can't be on both sides.
I did not say he was "on both sides" in terms of his ultimate
loyalties. I merely said he was a double-agent ... and that both sides
know he is a double agent. Both sides are correct. Snape is a double
agent. He has AGREED to serve two masters, and presumably plans to
betray at least one of them.
> Actually I
> think he's on neither side and both Voldemort and Dumbledore are
> wrong about Snape. Snape is on Snape's side, he wants to be the
> greatest wizard in the world, not Dumbledore and not Voldemort.
So, you believe he plans to betray both his masters. But he is still a
double agent. An agent who betrays his principal is still an agent.
And a double-agent who betrays both his principals (or only one of
them) is still a double-agent.
> > essentially telling him they will protect him by fooling Voldemort
> > into thinking that Draco and his family were dead.
> > But of course, DD would not want Draco to know this
> > if there were a danger he would remain in the enemy camp
>
> Why? How could such general non specific information help the enemy?
Without getting into specifics, it seems harldly implausible that
fooling Voldemort into thinking his enemies are dead might have some
strategic value to the good guys. If so, it goes without saying that
it will be of equal strategic value to LV to *not* be fooled. Obviously
it would be a bad idea to warn Voldemort about how precisely the good
guys are planning to fool him
Must I really explain these things?
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245402 ] |
Di, 04 April 2006 09:50 |
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On 3 Apr 2006 00:15:07 -0700, "eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
>nystulc [at] cs.com <nystulc [at] cs.com>
>It sure isn't obvious to me that Dumbledore knew about that vow
>because if he did then the poor man must have been a victim of
>Alzheimer's disease. To have as your closest adviser someone who
>vowed to sneak Death Eaters into the castle and murder you is just
>idiotic, there is no other word for it. If JKR tries to make Snape a
>good guy then book 7 is going to be one monumental turkey, you can have
>a good Snape or a good book but you can't have both, not now, not
>after the bastard murdered Dumbledore; that my friend is quite simple
>unforgivable under ANY circumstances.
Hey, DD wanted to die. We must see why he did. That'll explain all.
>> At the very least, he had the information Harry provided him.
>
>All he knew was that Snape told Draco that he'd made an unbreakable
>vow. Dumbledore clearly believed Snape had made such sounds with his
>mouth and that Draco heard them, but equally clearly Dumbledore
>didn't think Snape really had made such an evil unbreakable vow. But
>we readers know he did.
Of course he did. He knew full well Snape made the UV, and wanted him
to.
>
>Why? How could such general non specific information help the enemy?
Who knows what they'd take from it. What you or I would call
pointless fluff, could hold the key to a warped and dangerous mind.
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245431 ] |
Di, 04 April 2006 19:20 |
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nystulc [at] cs.com <nystulc [at] cs.com>
> Until now, the discussion has not been about
> whose side Snape is on.
Don't be silly, the big debate has always been is Snape good or evil,
you know that as well as I do,
> I was not claiming that DD was right in believing
> Snape is truly on his side, or that LV is wrong to
> think Snape is truly on his side.
Then what on Earth were you claiming? I hope it wasn't the trivial
point that until about 10 seconds before Snape murdered him Dumbledore
trusted Snape, because that is a keen grasp of the obvious.
> it seems harldly implausible that fooling Voldemort
> into thinking his enemies are dead might have some
> strategic value to the good guys.
Certainly true, and everybody knows it including Voldemort.
> Obviously it would be a bad idea to warn Voldemort
> about how precisely the good guys are planning to fool him
Warn? So it will come as a big revelation to Voldemort to learn that if
the good guys tell him that one of his enemies is dead he might not
really be dead? This is new information that will help him? I don't
think so.
> Must I really explain these things?
Yes. There are a great many things you must explain, like why we should
trust Dumbledore's judgment if he knew about that horrible vow for
nearly a year, and why he didn't tell Harry about the plan for Snape
to kill him so Harry wouldn't be distracted trying to punish Snape
rather than go after Voldemort, and why the loss of the most powerful
wizard the good guys had helps the good guys, and why a Snape that is
loyal to Dumbledore suddenly became Three Stooges grade stupid in
making that vow in the first place.
Eggplant
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245444 ] |
Mi, 05 April 2006 00:04 |
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eggplant wrote:
> nystulc [at] cs.com <nystulc [at] cs.com>
> Yes. There are a great many things you must explain, like why we should
> trust Dumbledore's judgment if he knew about that horrible vow for
> nearly a year, and why he didn't tell Harry about the plan for Snape
> to kill him so Harry wouldn't be distracted trying to punish Snape
> rather than go after Voldemort, and why the loss of the most powerful
> wizard the good guys had helps the good guys, and why a Snape that is
> loyal to Dumbledore suddenly became Three Stooges grade stupid in
> making that vow in the first place.
>
> Eggplant
It's quite possible that DD didn't say anything to Harry about Snape
because he didn't know if Voldemort still had access to Harry's thoughts
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245477 ] |
Mi, 05 April 2006 10:21 |
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On 4 Apr 2006 15:04:41 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
>eggplant wrote:
>> nystulc [at] cs.com <nystulc [at] cs.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Yes. There are a great many things you must explain, like why we should
>> trust Dumbledore's judgment if he knew about that horrible vow for
>> nearly a year, and why he didn't tell Harry about the plan for Snape
>> to kill him so Harry wouldn't be distracted trying to punish Snape
>> rather than go after Voldemort, and why the loss of the most powerful
>> wizard the good guys had helps the good guys, and why a Snape that is
>> loyal to Dumbledore suddenly became Three Stooges grade stupid in
>> making that vow in the first place.
>>
>> Eggplant
>
>
>It's quite possible that DD didn't say anything to Harry about Snape
>because he didn't know if Voldemort still had access to Harry's thoughts
didn't he tell; Harry V was closing his mind off to keep Harry out? If
he mindmelds into Harry, Harry can piggy back into him. Only
Occulmency is a firewall. I don't think it's like ours where you can
go out and they can't come in.
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245504 ] |
Mi, 05 April 2006 16:22 |
|
Toon wrote:
> On 4 Apr 2006 15:04:41 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >
> >eggplant wrote:
> >> nystulc [at] cs.com <nystulc [at] cs.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Yes. There are a great many things you must explain, like why we should
> >> trust Dumbledore's judgment if he knew about that horrible vow for
> >> nearly a year, and why he didn't tell Harry about the plan for Snape
> >> to kill him so Harry wouldn't be distracted trying to punish Snape
> >> rather than go after Voldemort, and why the loss of the most powerful
> >> wizard the good guys had helps the good guys, and why a Snape that is
> >> loyal to Dumbledore suddenly became Three Stooges grade stupid in
> >> making that vow in the first place.
> >>
> >> Eggplant
> >
> >
> >It's quite possible that DD didn't say anything to Harry about Snape
> >because he didn't know if Voldemort still had access to Harry's thoughts
>
> didn't he tell; Harry V was closing his mind off to keep Harry out? If
> he mindmelds into Harry, Harry can piggy back into him. Only
> Occulmency is a firewall. I don't think it's like ours where you can
> go out and they can't come in.
He did, but I was thinking that even though V found out about Harry's
mental access to him in OOTP, he would still be able to enter Harry's
mind while at the same time, blocking certain thoughts from him.
Regarding Occlumency, obviously I know that it's the blocking of the
mind from intrusion. However, I wonder if a Legilimens hits a "brick
wall" while attempting to access thoughts, or is it more subtle. In
other words, if you become proficient at Occlumency, could you
manipulate your thoughts so that the ones the Legilimens sees are the
ones you WANT him/her to see, not the real thoughts. I don't remember
if that's addressed in the books at all.
The mentioning of "mindmelds" made me feel as if we should get Spock in
here!
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245520 ] |
Mi, 05 April 2006 19:28 |
|
So let's see, Dumbledore trusts Harry enough to tell him he knows all
about Horcruxes, and that two have already been destroyed, and that
he's about to go after a third, but he doesn't trust Harry enough
to tell him about some loony tunes idea of his for Snape to murder him,
even though he must know it will massively distract Harry from the task
that fate has handed him, distract the only man who has a chance of
killing Voldemort. Even JKR couldn't rescue that ridiculous and
illogical plot. I said it before I'll say it again, you can have a
good Snape or a good book 7 but you can't have both.
Eggplant
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245522 ] |
Mi, 05 April 2006 20:05 |
|
"eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1144048507.921731.296370 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> nystulc [at] cs.com <nystulc [at] cs.com>
>
> > It seems obvious to me that DD knew about the vow.
>
> It sure isn't obvious to me that Dumbledore knew about that vow
> because if he did then the poor man must have been a victim of
> Alzheimer's disease. To have as your closest adviser someone who
> vowed to sneak Death Eaters into the castle and murder you is just
> idiotic, there is no other word for it.
You've interpreted this differently than I: the vow had nothing to do with
sneaking death eaters into the castle, it was specifically about killing
dumbledore, and yes, DD knew about it, that's why he could encourage Snape
to go through with it at the end, as he did, because he knew about it, and,
somehow, it's part of the plan.
>If JKR tries to make Snape a
> good guy then book 7 is going to be one monumental turkey, you can have
> a good Snape or a good book but you can't have both, not now, not
> after the bastard murdered Dumbledore; that my friend is quite simple
> unforgivable under ANY circumstances.
That's incorrect. If it was part of an overall plan drawn up by DD, then it
is forgiveable.
--
Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245523 ] |
Mi, 05 April 2006 20:27 |
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Matt Clara wrote:
> "eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1144048507.921731.296370 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>If JKR tries to make Snape a
>>good guy then book 7 is going to be one monumental turkey, you can have
>>a good Snape or a good book but you can't have both, not now, not
>>after the bastard murdered Dumbledore; that my friend is quite simple
>>unforgivable under ANY circumstances.
>
>
> That's incorrect. If it was part of an overall plan drawn up by DD, then it
> is forgiveable.
In fact, if whatever happened that night was NOT part of DD's plan, then
she has made DD into a fool whose ignorance got himself killed. Snape
cannot be evil, and DD cannot really be dead, because in either case DD
is a huge blunderbrain, and it would seriously diminish my admiration
for the character.
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245539 ] |
Do, 06 April 2006 01:59 |
|
"Steven Sousa" <ssousa [at] adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:LbGdncDJu6xklqnZRVn-qQ [at] adelphia.com...
> Matt Clara wrote:
>
>> "eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1144048507.921731.296370 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>>>If JKR tries to make Snape a
>>>good guy then book 7 is going to be one monumental turkey, you can have
>>>a good Snape or a good book but you can't have both, not now, not
>>>after the bastard murdered Dumbledore; that my friend is quite simple
>>>unforgivable under ANY circumstances.
>>
>>
>> That's incorrect. If it was part of an overall plan drawn up by DD, then
>> it
>> is forgiveable.
>
> In fact, if whatever happened that night was NOT part of DD's plan, then
> she has made DD into a fool whose ignorance got himself killed. Snape
> cannot be evil, and DD cannot really be dead, because in either case DD is
> a huge blunderbrain, and it would seriously diminish my admiration for the
> character.
It certainly stands to reason that because JKR has developed the character
in such a way over many books, she isn't going to break with that now and
make him look dramatically different, ie, weak, in the last book.
--
Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245570 ] |
Do, 06 April 2006 10:21 |
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On 5 Apr 2006 07:22:30 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
>Toon wrote:
>> On 4 Apr 2006 15:04:41 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >eggplant wrote:
>> >> nystulc [at] cs.com <nystulc [at] cs.com>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Yes. There are a great many things you must explain, like why we should
>> >> trust Dumbledore's judgment if he knew about that horrible vow for
>> >> nearly a year, and why he didn't tell Harry about the plan for Snape
>> >> to kill him so Harry wouldn't be distracted trying to punish Snape
>> >> rather than go after Voldemort, and why the loss of the most powerful
>> >> wizard the good guys had helps the good guys, and why a Snape that is
>> >> loyal to Dumbledore suddenly became Three Stooges grade stupid in
>> >> making that vow in the first place.
>> >>
>> >> Eggplant
>> >
>> >
>> >It's quite possible that DD didn't say anything to Harry about Snape
>> >because he didn't know if Voldemort still had access to Harry's thoughts
>>
>> didn't he tell; Harry V was closing his mind off to keep Harry out? If
>> he mindmelds into Harry, Harry can piggy back into him. Only
>> Occulmency is a firewall. I don't think it's like ours where you can
>> go out and they can't come in.
>
>
>He did, but I was thinking that even though V found out about Harry's
>mental access to him in OOTP, he would still be able to enter Harry's
>mind while at the same time, blocking certain thoughts from him.
>
>Regarding Occlumency, obviously I know that it's the blocking of the
>mind from intrusion. However, I wonder if a Legilimens hits a "brick
>wall" while attempting to access thoughts, or is it more subtle. In
>other words, if you become proficient at Occlumency, could you
>manipulate your thoughts so that the ones the Legilimens sees are the
>ones you WANT him/her to see, not the real thoughts. I don't remember
>if that's addressed in the books at all.
>
That's the theory on Snape. I mean, if V saw Snape blocking him, he'd
know something's up.
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245583 ] |
Do, 06 April 2006 11:02 |
|
eggplant wrote:
> nystulc [at] cs.com <nystulc [at] cs.com>
>
> > It seems obvious to me that DD knew about the vow.
>
> It sure isn't obvious to me that Dumbledore knew about that vow
> because if he did then the poor man must have been a victim of
> Alzheimer's disease.
Alzhoomers? Alzheemers? This is getting all so confusing...
Dave
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245606 ] |
Do, 06 April 2006 19:08 |
|
On 2006-04-05 14:05:29 -0400, "Matt Clara" <no.emailz [at] this.guys.expense> said:
> "eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1144048507.921731.296370 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> nystulc [at] cs.com <nystulc [at] cs.com>
>>
>>> It seems obvious to me that DD knew about the vow.
>>
>> It sure isn't obvious to me that Dumbledore knew about that vow
>> because if he did then the poor man must have been a victim of
>> Alzheimer's disease. To have as your closest adviser someone who
>> vowed to sneak Death Eaters into the castle and murder you is just
>> idiotic, there is no other word for it.
>
> You've interpreted this differently than I: the vow had nothing to do with
> sneaking death eaters into the castle, it was specifically about killing
> dumbledore, and yes, DD knew about it, that's why he could encourage Snape
> to go through with it at the end, as he did, because he knew about it, and,
> somehow, it's part of the plan.
>
>> If JKR tries to make Snape a
>> good guy then book 7 is going to be one monumental turkey, you can have
>> a good Snape or a good book but you can't have both, not now, not
>> after the bastard murdered Dumbledore; that my friend is quite simple
>> unforgivable under ANY circumstances.
>
> That's incorrect. If it was part of an overall plan drawn up by DD, then it
> is forgiveable.
For the AK to be effective, YOU HAVE TO *MEAN* IT. Snape really meant
it, or it wouldn't
have worked.
--
Enjoy,
Zolak of Twylo
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245614 ] |
Do, 06 April 2006 20:42 |
|
Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> >>> It seems obvious to me that DD knew about the vow.
> >>
> >> It sure isn't obvious to me that Dumbledore knew about that vow
> >> because if he did then the poor man must have been a victim of
> >> Alzheimer's disease. To have as your closest adviser someone who
> >> vowed to sneak Death Eaters into the castle and murder you is just
> >> idiotic, there is no other word for it.
> >
> > You've interpreted this differently than I: the vow had nothing to do with
> > sneaking death eaters into the castle, it was specifically about killing
> > dumbledore, and yes, DD knew about it, that's why he could encourage Snape
> > to go through with it at the end, as he did, because he knew about it, and,
> > somehow, it's part of the plan.
> >
> >> If JKR tries to make Snape a
> >> good guy then book 7 is going to be one monumental turkey, you can have
> >> a good Snape or a good book but you can't have both, not now, not
> >> after the bastard murdered Dumbledore; that my friend is quite simple
> >> unforgivable under ANY circumstances.
> >
> > That's incorrect. If it was part of an overall plan drawn up by DD, then it
> > is forgiveable.
>
> For the AK to be effective, YOU HAVE TO *MEAN* IT. Snape really meant
> it, or it wouldn't have worked.
Where did Matt say that Snape didn't "mean it?" In fact, since it was a
plan drawn up by DD, and agreed upon by Snape (after a bitter argument
in the Forbidden Forest), then he could have found a way to "mean it."
Consider the look on Snape's face right before he cast the spell. He
was probably thinking about Sirius Black, or Voldemort, to summon
enough hatred to cast it. But, just because it was DD's plan doesn't
mean Snape didn't "mean it."
> Zolak of Twylo
-Aaron
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245634 ] |
Fr, 07 April 2006 00:51 |
|
Aaron wrote:
> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
>
>>>>>It seems obvious to me that DD knew about the vow.
>>>>
>>>>It sure isn't obvious to me that Dumbledore knew about that vow
>>>>because if he did then the poor man must have been a victim of
>>>>Alzheimer's disease. To have as your closest adviser someone who
>>>>vowed to sneak Death Eaters into the castle and murder you is just
>>>>idiotic, there is no other word for it.
>>>
>>>You've interpreted this differently than I: the vow had nothing to do with
>>>sneaking death eaters into the castle, it was specifically about killing
>>>dumbledore, and yes, DD knew about it, that's why he could encourage Snape
>>>to go through with it at the end, as he did, because he knew about it, and,
>>>somehow, it's part of the plan.
>>>
>>>
>>>>If JKR tries to make Snape a
>>>>good guy then book 7 is going to be one monumental turkey, you can have
>>>>a good Snape or a good book but you can't have both, not now, not
>>>>after the bastard murdered Dumbledore; that my friend is quite simple
>>>>unforgivable under ANY circumstances.
>>>
>>>That's incorrect. If it was part of an overall plan drawn up by DD, then it
>>>is forgiveable.
>>
>>For the AK to be effective, YOU HAVE TO *MEAN* IT. Snape really meant
>>it, or it wouldn't have worked.
>
>
> Where did Matt say that Snape didn't "mean it?" In fact, since it was a
> plan drawn up by DD, and agreed upon by Snape (after a bitter argument
> in the Forbidden Forest), then he could have found a way to "mean it."
I have another idea bout the argument in the forest. Usually, this is
regarded as clue about the "preplanned death", by people in that camp,
or skipped over.
In a scenery where Snape is finally selfish (albeit with some good
nature) it could be that Snape didn't want anymore to teach DADA,
because it was luring him again towards the dark side. Which it happened
in the end. He could be demanding from DD to leave the job...
--
Take the Snape polls: http://snape.mosteo.com [Updated 16/08]
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245644 ] |
Fr, 07 April 2006 01:49 |
|
Jano wrote:
> Aaron wrote:
> > Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> >
> >>>>>It seems obvious to me that DD knew about the vow.
> >>>>
> >>>>It sure isn't obvious to me that Dumbledore knew about that vow
> >>>>because if he did then the poor man must have been a victim of
> >>>>Alzheimer's disease. To have as your closest adviser someone who
> >>>>vowed to sneak Death Eaters into the castle and murder you is just
> >>>>idiotic, there is no other word for it.
> >>>
> >>>You've interpreted this differently than I: the vow had nothing to do with
> >>>sneaking death eaters into the castle, it was specifically about killing
> >>>dumbledore, and yes, DD knew about it, that's why he could encourage Snape
> >>>to go through with it at the end, as he did, because he knew about it, and,
> >>>somehow, it's part of the plan.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>If JKR tries to make Snape a
> >>>>good guy then book 7 is going to be one monumental turkey, you can have
> >>>>a good Snape or a good book but you can't have both, not now, not
> >>>>after the bastard murdered Dumbledore; that my friend is quite simple
> >>>>unforgivable under ANY circumstances.
> >>>
> >>>That's incorrect. If it was part of an overall plan drawn up by DD, then it
> >>>is forgiveable.
> >>
> >>For the AK to be effective, YOU HAVE TO *MEAN* IT. Snape really meant
> >>it, or it wouldn't have worked.
> >
> >
> > Where did Matt say that Snape didn't "mean it?" In fact, since it was a
> > plan drawn up by DD, and agreed upon by Snape (after a bitter argument
> > in the Forbidden Forest), then he could have found a way to "mean it."
>
> I have another idea bout the argument in the forest. Usually, this is
> regarded as clue about the "preplanned death", by people in that camp,
> or skipped over.
>
> In a scenery where Snape is finally selfish (albeit with some good
> nature) it could be that Snape didn't want anymore to teach DADA,
> because it was luring him again towards the dark side. Which it happened
> in the end. He could be demanding from DD to leave the job...
>
> --
> Take the Snape polls: http://snape.mosteo.com [Updated 16/08]
My own feeling is that the key to the Forbidden Forest scene is Snape's
words, according to Hagrid, that he "didn't want to do it anymore."
That, to me, means that Snape had BEEN doing something already and
didn't want to continue. Now, whether or not this means spying on
Voldy or teaching the DADA position, I don't know.
|
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245683 ] |
Fr, 07 April 2006 10:04 |
|
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:51:21 +0200, Jano <devnull [at] mailinator.com>
wrote:
>
>
>Aaron wrote:
>> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
>>
>>>>>>It seems obvious to me that DD knew about the vow.
>>>>>
>>>>>It sure isn't obvious to me that Dumbledore knew about that vow
>>>>>because if he did then the poor man must have been a victim of
>>>>>Alzheimer's disease. To have as your closest adviser someone who
>>>>>vowed to sneak Death Eaters into the castle and murder you is just
>>>>>idiotic, there is no other word for it.
>>>>
>>>>You've interpreted this differently than I: the vow had nothing to do with
>>>>sneaking death eaters into the castle, it was specifically about killing
>>>>dumbledore, and yes, DD knew about it, that's why he could encourage Snape
>>>>to go through with it at the end, as he did, because he knew about it, and,
>>>>somehow, it's part of the plan.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>If JKR tries to make Snape a
>>>>>good guy then book 7 is going to be one monumental turkey, you can have
>>>>>a good Snape or a good book but you can't have both, not now, not
>>>>>after the bastard murdered Dumbledore; that my friend is quite simple
>>>>>unforgivable under ANY circumstances.
>>>>
>>>>That's incorrect. If it was part of an overall plan drawn up by DD, then it
>>>>is forgiveable.
>>>
>>>For the AK to be effective, YOU HAVE TO *MEAN* IT. Snape really meant
>>>it, or it wouldn't have worked.
>>
>>
>> Where did Matt say that Snape didn't "mean it?" In fact, since it was a
>> plan drawn up by DD, and agreed upon by Snape (after a bitter argument
>> in the Forbidden Forest), then he could have found a way to "mean it."
>
>I have another idea bout the argument in the forest. Usually, this is
>regarded as clue about the "preplanned death", by people in that camp,
>or skipped over.
>
>In a scenery where Snape is finally selfish (albeit with some good
>nature) it could be that Snape didn't want anymore to teach DADA,
>because it was luring him again towards the dark side. Which it happened
>in the end. He could be demanding from DD to leave the job...
Doubtful, having spent his whole professional life wanting it. He
knew what he was getting into.
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245684 ] |
Fr, 07 April 2006 10:05 |
|
On 6 Apr 2006 16:49:32 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>My own feeling is that the key to the Forbidden Forest scene is Snape's
>words, according to Hagrid, that he "didn't want to do it anymore."
>That, to me, means that Snape had BEEN doing something already and
>didn't want to continue. Now, whether or not this means spying on
>Voldy or teaching the DADA position, I don't know.
Maybe it was his Unbreakable Vow with DD? Only DD could release him
from it.
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245737 ] |
Fr, 07 April 2006 20:15 |
|
eggplant wrote:
> nystulc [at] cs.com <nystulc [at] cs.com>
>
> > It seems obvious to me that DD knew about the vow.
>
> It sure isn't obvious to me that Dumbledore knew about that vow
> because if he did then the poor man must have been a victim of
> Alzheimer's disease. To have as your closest adviser someone who
> vowed to sneak Death Eaters into the castle and murder you is just
> idiotic, there is no other word for it.
Snape did not vow to sneak death eaters in, nor did he sneak death
eaters in. Its fair to say that Snape is not without good and not
without evil-- thats what makes him such a great character: he is
conflicted. To say more than that is speculation.
Jonathan
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245759 ] |
Fr, 07 April 2006 23:36 |
|
Toon wrote:
> On 6 Apr 2006 16:49:32 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >My own feeling is that the key to the Forbidden Forest scene is Snape's
> >words, according to Hagrid, that he "didn't want to do it anymore."
> >That, to me, means that Snape had BEEN doing something already and
> >didn't want to continue. Now, whether or not this means spying on
> >Voldy or teaching the DADA position, I don't know.
>
> Maybe it was his Unbreakable Vow with DD? Only DD could release him
> from it.
i don't think it is in DD's nature to demand UVs from people. DD is all
about 2nd chances and trusting poeple instead.
--
Jane Grey
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245809 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 09:46 |
|
eggplant wrote:
> It sure isn't obvious to me that Dumbledore knew about that vow
> because if he did then the poor man must have been a victim of
> Alzheimer's disease. To have as your closest adviser someone who
> vowed to sneak Death Eaters into the castle and murder you is just
> idiotic
1. Snape didn't tell DD about the vow - but then he does not have to
tell his employer every last detail of how he does his job as spy - he
just has to get the job done and report the results. And expenses.
2. To me it is plausible that Snape could feel that the vow is a
detail because the precise wording of the vow makes it entirely
possible that it will never come to the test. Snape vows to complete
Draco's task if it ever becomes APPARANT that Draco will fail (emphasis
mine). But, through the first five books, Draco is so incompetent that
it seems unlikely that he can ever mount a plausible scheme that CAN
fail. Thus, the only real indicia of Draco's imminent failure is the
passage of time withoug success. But how much time passage does ot
take to make it self-evident that Draco hasn't got it? The oath
doesn't address this issue, and I think that a "good" Snape might well
have counted on this ambiguity saving him from ever having to fulfil
the terms of the contract.
Then Draco got very, very luck and Snape found himself backed into a
corner.
Bottom line: I have much less problem with a "good" Snape than the
way-too-pat idea of making the nasty guy the bad guy.
Dave
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245819 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 10:04 |
|
On 7 Apr 2006 14:36:19 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
>Toon wrote:
>> On 6 Apr 2006 16:49:32 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> >My own feeling is that the key to the Forbidden Forest scene is Snape's
>> >words, according to Hagrid, that he "didn't want to do it anymore."
>> >That, to me, means that Snape had BEEN doing something already and
>> >didn't want to continue. Now, whether or not this means spying on
>> >Voldy or teaching the DADA position, I don't know.
>>
>> Maybe it was his Unbreakable Vow with DD? Only DD could release him
>> from it.
>
>i don't think it is in DD's nature to demand UVs from people. DD is all
>about 2nd chances and trusting poeple instead.
But we don't know why he set this all up. he might have needed to
force snape into killing him. We saw how reluctant he was.
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245841 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 17:14 |
|
David Sueme wrote
> Bottom line: I have much less problem with a "good" Snape than the
> way-too-pat idea of making the nasty guy the bad guy.
>
> Dave
I agree. I have always felt that ending the series with Snape as the
bad guy would be too predictable and too anti-climactic particularly
when Jo keeps writing such an ambiguous character.
I also don't feel, IMO, (at least, I hope) that DD is not as much of a
"pudding head" as we think he might be. He is supposed to be,
according to his card, "the greatest wizard of modern time."
Obviously, he's not infallible, but I do think that some of his errors
in judgment concerning Harry were the result of one thing: love. He
fell in love with Harry (not a slash-fic,folks!) and that colored his
decisions regarding him, just as it does in "real life."
Unfortunately, since these decisions involved more than just a Harry &
DD relationship, his misguided judgments and their consequences
affected more than just the two of them.
|
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245843 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 17:52 |
|
Toon wrote:
> On 7 Apr 2006 14:36:19 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >Toon wrote:
> >> On 6 Apr 2006 16:49:32 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >My own feeling is that the key to the Forbidden Forest scene is Snape's
> >> >words, according to Hagrid, that he "didn't want to do it anymore."
> >> >That, to me, means that Snape had BEEN doing something already and
> >> >didn't want to continue. Now, whether or not this means spying on
> >> >Voldy or teaching the DADA position, I don't know.
> >>
> >> Maybe it was his Unbreakable Vow with DD? Only DD could release him
> >> from it.
> >
> >i don't think it is in DD's nature to demand UVs from people. DD is all
> >about 2nd chances and trusting poeple instead.
>
> But we don't know why he set this all up. he might have needed to
> force snape into killing him. We saw how reluctant he was.
so you think DD knew that Draco would get in the castle that night and
let in a bunch of DEs into a castle full of sleeping children? i doubt
that very much. i think DD believed it was impossible to get in the
castle and that Draco won't succeed and so he and snape could exploit
the loop hole in the UV for longer. But things came to a head that
night and DD needed Snape to kill him, maybe also because the potion
from the cave was killing him softly anyway.
--
Jane Grey
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245845 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 20:35 |
|
Toon wrote:
>
> Hey, DD wanted to die. We must see why he did. That'll explain all.
>
He's just like Obi-Wan when Darth Vader killed him: he will come back
stronger and better -- "Use The Force Harry..."
:)
- Bobby
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245866 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 09:50 |
|
On 8 Apr 2006 00:46:12 -0700, "David Sueme" <dsueme [at] comcast.net>
wrote:
>1. Snape didn't tell DD about the vow - but then he does not have to
>tell his employer every last detail of how he does his job as spy - he
>just has to get the job done and report the results. And expenses.
25 Cents and hour, plus Candy expenses.
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245867 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 09:52 |
|
On 8 Apr 2006 08:14:05 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>Obviously, he's not infallible, but I do think that some of his errors
>in judgment concerning Harry were the result of one thing: love. He
>fell in love with Harry (not a slash-fic,folks!) and that colored his
>decisions regarding him, just as it does in "real life."
He admits as much in OOP. The one flaw in his perfect plan. He cared
about Harry too much. Which has happened in so may protection movies,
and has caused so much trouble. Never fall for the
client/target/mark.
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245868 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 09:53 |
|
On 8 Apr 2006 11:35:51 -0700, bdurrettccci [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
>Toon wrote:
>>
>> Hey, DD wanted to die. We must see why he did. That'll explain all.
>>
>
>He's just like Obi-Wan when Darth Vader killed him: he will come back
>stronger and better -- "Use The Force Harry..."
>
>:)
>
>- Bobby
I see we've been watching Star Wars again.
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245877 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 10:27 |
|
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> I also don't feel, IMO, (at least, I hope) that DD is not as much of a
> "pudding head" as we think he might be. He is supposed to be,
> according to his card, "the greatest wizard of modern time."
> Obviously, he's not infallible...
My perspective is that JKR was on the verge of greatness until she made
the obvious and easy DD ending instead of the more subtle and troubling
DD ending.
DD should have died in his sleep - of old age. Just like the typical
Potter fan's grandparents have done or will likely do. And eventually
parents, too. It would have made a point very starkly and clearly -
someday we are all "on our own" and utterly responsible to our own
internalized vision of the good life.
Dave
|
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245885 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 13:50 |
|
David Sueme wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > I also don't feel, IMO, (at least, I hope) that DD is not as much of a
> > "pudding head" as we think he might be. He is supposed to be,
> > according to his card, "the greatest wizard of modern time."
> > Obviously, he's not infallible...
>
> My perspective is that JKR was on the verge of greatness until she made
> the obvious and easy DD ending instead of the more subtle and troubling
> DD ending.
>
> DD should have died in his sleep - of old age. Just like the typical
> Potter fan's grandparents have done or will likely do. And eventually
> parents, too. It would have made a point very starkly and clearly -
> someday we are all "on our own" and utterly responsible to our own
> internalized vision of the good life.
yeah but she wanted to have Snape show his 'true' colours in HBP in a
shocking way so that we can all be shocked when he shows his true
colours in book7.
--
Jane Grey
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245892 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 17:12 |
|
David Sueme" <dsueme [at] comcast.net> wrote:
> Snape didn't tell DD about the vow - but then he
> does not have to tell his employer every last
> detail of how he does his job as spy
Yes, no need to tell his boss the tiny little insignifacant detail that
he planed to murder him.
> To me it is plausible that Snape could feel that the
> vow is a detail because the precise wording of the
> vow makes it entirely possible that it will never
> come to the test.
If Snape felt that way about an Unbreakable Vow then the man is a
contemptible moron and a supremely uninteresting character for book 7.
> I have much less problem with a "good" Snape than
> the way-too-pat idea of making the nasty guy the bad guy.
Bad Snape a pat idea? What are you talking about? I am in the minority,
I'm nearly the only one on this forum who thinks Snape is an evil
bastard. And it's not just here, go to any Potter forum and the
general consensus is that Snape has his faults and may be a bit gruff
at times but deep deep down he has a heart of gold. I say the consensus
is wrong and deep down he has a heart of stone.
David Sueme <dsueme [at] comcast.net>
> DD should have died in his sleep - of old age.
> Just like the typical Potter fan's grandparents
> have done or will likely do.
I don't follow you, how would that make a more interesting story?
Many dictators die in their sleep too but I'd feel cheated if that
happened to Voldemort, or if he slipped on a banana peal and cracked
his head open. And grandparents sometimes get murdered too.
Jane Grey Wrote:
> i think DD believed it was impossible to get in the
> castle and that Draco won't succeed
Yes, Dumbledore did think it was imposable to get into the castle and
he was dead wrong about that, just as he was wrong about Snape's
character.
Toon Wrote:
> The most logical reason is Snape's now back in the
> DE camp, fully trusted, and can get great insider info.
It was unnecessary, Snape was already the most trusted of Voldemort's
lieutenants. And a loyal CIA agent would never assassinate the
President of the United States with the idea of helping his undercover
work. Real Human Beings just don't behave like that.
Eggplant
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #245897 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 17:57 |
|
eggplant wrote:
> David Sueme" <dsueme [at] comcast.net> wrote:
<snip>
> > I have much less problem with a "good" Snape than
> > the way-too-pat idea of making the nasty guy the bad guy.
>
> Bad Snape a pat idea? What are you talking about? I am in the minority,
> I'm nearly the only one on this forum who thinks Snape is an evil
> bastard. And it's not just here, go to any Potter forum and the
> general consensus is that Snape has his faults and may be a bit gruff
> at times but deep deep down he has a heart of gold. I say the consensus
> is wrong and deep down he has a heart of stone.
I think the majority opinion is that Snape is a nasty person who is on
DD's side. I doubt many people would say he has a heart of gold -he
clearly hasn't, he's shown that time and time again by being his
embittered bully of a self. JKR has said in interview that he is a
vindictive bully which is far from having a heart of gold.
> David Sueme <dsueme [at] comcast.net>
>
> > DD should have died in his sleep - of old age.
> > Just like the typical Potter fan's grandparents
> > have done or will likely do.
>
> I don't follow you, how would that make a more interesting story?
> Many dictators die in their sleep too but I'd feel cheated if that
> happened to Voldemort, or if he slipped on a banana peal and cracked
> his head open. And grandparents sometimes get murdered too.
i think David means that it would be realistic and poignant if the man
harry was relying on died of old age and harry was forced to realise he
is pretty much on his own...
> Jane Grey Wrote:
>
> > i think DD believed it was impossible to get in the
> > castle and that Draco won't succeed
>
> Yes, Dumbledore did think it was imposable to get into the castle and
> he was dead wrong about that, just as he was wrong about Snape's
> character.
well JKR has portrayed Snape as nasty with little swirls of good, this
is why i think she has a (somewhat) good-Snape book7 plot in store for
us. JKR is all about plot twists and i think in book6 she was setting
us up for a major twist in book7.
> Toon Wrote:
>
> > The most logical reason is Snape's now back in the
> > DE camp, fully trusted, and can get great insider info.
>
> It was unnecessary, Snape was already the most trusted of Voldemort's
> lieutenants. And a loyal CIA agent would never assassinate the
> President of the United States with the idea of helping his undercover
> work. Real Human Beings just don't behave like that.
well i think Snape made the UV because he thought it was time for his
double agent role to end, he was tired of it all and ready to die. but
then when he told AD about it AD made Snape promise him that if the
time came Snape was to kill him. AD thought that Snape's inside help
could give harry the edge he needs to defeat LV maybe?
---
Jane Grey
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #246789 ] |
Mo, 10 April 2006 04:11 |
|
On 3 Apr 2006 00:15:07 -0700 in alt.fan.harry-potter, "eggplant"
<eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com> wrote,
>Yes, and Dumbledore had his own reasons for thinking Death Eaters could
>never get into the castle, but he was wrong about that too just as he
>was wrong about Snape.
Anybody have a list of things Dumbledore has been wrong about?
|
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #246814 ] |
Mo, 10 April 2006 10:24 |
|
On 9 Apr 2006 08:12:11 -0700, "eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Bad Snape a pat idea? What are you talking about? I am in the minority,
>I'm nearly the only one on this forum who thinks Snape is an evil
>bastard. And it's not just here, go to any Potter forum and the
>general consensus is that Snape has his faults and may be a bit gruff
>at times but deep deep down he has a heart of gold. I say the consensus
>is wrong and deep down he has a heart of stone.
Well, you'll either be drinking plenty of butterbeers, or buying them.
>Toon Wrote:
>
>> The most logical reason is Snape's now back in the
>> DE camp, fully trusted, and can get great insider info.
>
>It was unnecessary, Snape was already the most trusted of Voldemort's
>lieutenants. And a loyal CIA agent would never assassinate the
>President of the United States with the idea of helping his undercover
>work. Real Human Beings just don't behave like that.
>
>Eggplant
But is he that trusted? He might have been excused. Did Bellatrix's
challenges to SNape's loyalties come from her own distrust, or
Vodlemorts? Was she there to check out his story? Was Vodlemort the
one who decided to use Draco's suicidal task as a way to lock Snape
into an Unbrekable Vow to make sure DD's killed, and test his
loyalties? if he isn't loyal, he dies, and good riddance to the
traitor. if he succeeds, he is trustworthy, and no Dumbledore. A win
win situation. Ditto Draco. He's wither a hero, and excused from the
sins of the father, or he's killed.
Maybe V did an UV with Draco to guarantee a kill within a certain time
limit. Could that be why Dracow as convinced sparing DD would never
work, despite DD's assurances? He's dead, and his family's next?
Could Narcissa's use of Snape's UV be a loophole for Draco? Draco did
set DD up to die, with removing his wand. And maybe delaying any help
for the potion's side affects/direct problems.
And these aren't real humans. Real humans aren't as logicless as
wizards are.
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #246817 ] |
Mo, 10 April 2006 10:35 |
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Jane Grey wrote:
> yeah but she wanted to have Snape show his 'true' colours in HBP in a
> shocking way so that we can all be shocked when he shows his true
> colours in book7.
Isn't it interesting that the words "trite" and "tripe" differ in only
one character? For the most part I consider the whole "intelligent
designer" notion to be utterly silly. But occasionally there is a
coincidence that make me wonder...
for about three nanoseconds. Then I laugh and move one.
Dave
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #246818 ] |
Mo, 10 April 2006 10:40 |
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dipsh*t wrote:
> he planed to murder him.
At least give old Severius his due - he has never "planed" anything.
He can spel.
Dave
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #246819 ] |
Mo, 10 April 2006 10:45 |
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Jane Grey wrote:
> i think David means that it would be realistic and poignant if the man
> harry was relying on died of old age and harry was forced to realise he
> is pretty much on his own...
kiss kiss kiss kiss!
Dave
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| Re: Snape's Vow (was: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown) [message #246875 ] |
Di, 11 April 2006 01:48 |
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Eggplant wrote:
> David Sueme" wrote:
>> I have much less problem with a "good" Snape than
>> the way-too-pat idea of making the nasty guy the bad guy.
Yeah.
> Bad Snape a pat idea? What are you talking about? I am in the minority,
> I'm nearly the only one on this forum who thinks Snape is an evil bastard.
Not quite: Alley Rabbit, Brent Braten, Chip Stobb, Crookshanked, Dark Magic
Shannon, David Harmon, Drusilla, G.J.W., Jim Hawkins, Jonathan Ellis, JoeMo,
Kami, Kish, Mike Bristow, Paul W. Lints Junior, Pygmy Puffs, Slys Noodles,
Stephen Ray, Tim Peters, Troels Forchhammer and Wizz agree with you.
> And it's not just here, go to any Potter forum and the
> general consensus is that Snape has his faults and may be a bit gruff
> at times but deep deep down he has a heart of gold. I say the consensus
> is wrong and deep down he has a heart of stone.
Ooh, Freudian slip! Deep down he's bad, deep deep down he's good? ^_^
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
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