Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site

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Miscellaneous / Verschiedenes » alt.fan.james-bond » Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site

Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242506]

Mi, 22 März 2006 12:44

phil.gerrard1

http://www.mi6.co.uk/news/index.php?itemid=3498

To be fair to Greengrass, the comments about Bourne being more likeable
and audiences identifying with him more than with Bond are the Boston
Herald's spin on his comments - they're not his actual words. He's
speaking about his personal preferences, but the paper is presenting it
a little misleadingly as if he's speaking for movie audiences as a
whole.

Having said that, I think there's a crucial point being missed here in
comparing Bond to Bourne. The cinematic Bond has, for the most part,
been fighting for what one might call the greater good, whereas Matt
Damon's Bourne, so far, has been fighting to save his own skin. I'm
not sure that it's completely valid to compare the characters' personal
values given that their circumstances are so different.

For me, the comparison brings to mind the difference between the
'Mission Impossible' film and its sequel. The first film works better
for me because Ethan Hunt is the underdog, the hunted. In MI2, where
he's persona grata within the IMF again and becomes the hunter, he
becomes the preening, self-regarding, smug Tom Cruise figure that I've
come to know and loathe over the last twenty-odd years. If Bourne were
to make a similar journey and end up working for a government
organisation rather than running from one, would he turn out to be more
or less likeable than Bond?

Above all it strikes me that Greengrass is missing one important point
here, which is that like Quaid in 'Total Recall', Bourne was a pretty
nasty piece of work before his memory was wiped - in fact, he was far
more of a bastard than Bond. That irony is central to the Bourne
movies so far, and to talk about the character as 'one of us' or
present him as an innocent victim of circumstances is to simplify
things a little too much.

Best

Phil

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242507 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 13:12

Mac

phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com wrote:

> Above all it strikes me that Greengrass is missing one important point
> here, which is that like Quaid in 'Total Recall', Bourne was a pretty
> nasty piece of work before his memory was wiped - in fact, he was far
> more of a bastard than Bond. That irony is central to the Bourne
> movies so far, and to talk about the character as 'one of us' or
> present him as an innocent victim of circumstances is to simplify
> things a little too much.

I think where they choose to take Bourne is the next film will be
crucial; if he's on the run again, there's a danger of it becoming
repetitive. Losing Marie from the second film took a lot of heart
and soul out of the picture, and the Bourne character.
--
--Mac

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242521 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 15:54

Tom Zielinski

"phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1143027875.781440.313670 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.mi6.co.uk/news/index.php?itemid=3498
>
> To be fair to Greengrass, the comments about Bourne being more likeable
> and audiences identifying with him more than with Bond are the Boston
> Herald's spin on his comments - they're not his actual words. He's
> speaking about his personal preferences, but the paper is presenting it
> a little misleadingly as if he's speaking for movie audiences as a
> whole.
>
> Having said that, I think there's a crucial point being missed here in
> comparing Bond to Bourne. The cinematic Bond has, for the most part,
> been fighting for what one might call the greater good, whereas Matt
> Damon's Bourne, so far, has been fighting to save his own skin. I'm
> not sure that it's completely valid to compare the characters' personal
> values given that their circumstances are so different.
>
> For me, the comparison brings to mind the difference between the
> 'Mission Impossible' film and its sequel. The first film works better
> for me because Ethan Hunt is the underdog, the hunted. In MI2, where
> he's persona grata within the IMF again and becomes the hunter, he
> becomes the preening, self-regarding, smug Tom Cruise figure that I've
> come to know and loathe over the last twenty-odd years. If Bourne were
> to make a similar journey and end up working for a government
> organisation rather than running from one, would he turn out to be more
> or less likeable than Bond?
>
> Above all it strikes me that Greengrass is missing one important point
> here, which is that like Quaid in 'Total Recall', Bourne was a pretty
> nasty piece of work before his memory was wiped - in fact, he was far
> more of a bastard than Bond. That irony is central to the Bourne
> movies so far, and to talk about the character as 'one of us' or
> present him as an innocent victim of circumstances is to simplify
> things a little too much.

Agreed on all counts regarding Bond/Bourne, and you've made valid points
Phil. I am one who admittedly does like the Bourne films.

As for Tom Cruise, I didn't care all that much for the first MI, and didn't
even see the second film. (I'll probably see the third because I am a big
fan of Philip Seymour Hoffman.) BUT, I have to say the man is a
sensationally good actor. Cruise's body of work is only matched by some of
the greatest of actors, living or dead. "Preening and smug"? I don't see
that. Perhaps off-screen that could be said, but he has made some daring
career choices. One of my favorite films of all time is "Vanilla Sky",
where he spent more than half the film in a mask. Not much vanity there.
Cruise was also excellent in the excellent films "Collateral", "The Last
Samurai", "Minority Report", "Magnolia" and "Eyes Wide Shut." And those
films are all within the last seven years!

While Cruise's off-screen antics may be self-important, preening,
self-regarding, and smug, there is no doubting his talent. One may laugh at
the Scientology stuff and the Oprah stuff and the Katie Holmes stuff and the
South Park stuff, but who really cares? It makes for good copy and funny
video clips, but at the end of the day it's his work that matters.

I mean after all, Woody Allen is a genius though his personal life choices
may seem to some (most?) abhorrent. There are many other examples of
artists and their odd behaviors and beliefs.

Rant over.

Tom Zielinski
"...Bond's eyes narrowed. He knew, at some point, he would have to slay this
particular dragon. He settled back in his chair, removing a Morlands' three
ring special from the gunmetal cigarette case. As he waited for the
delicious Balkan/Turkish blend to take effect on his lungs, he reflected
that when you sleep with someone, your body makes a promise whether you do
or not..."

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242522 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 16:04

Mac

Tom Zielinski wrote:

> As for Tom Cruise, I didn't care all that much for the first MI, and
> didn't even see the second film. (I'll probably see the third
> because I am a big fan of Philip Seymour Hoffman.) BUT, I have to
> say the man is a sensationally good actor. Cruise's body of work is
> only matched by some of the greatest of actors, living or dead. "Preening
> and smug"? I don't see that. Perhaps off-screen that
> could be said, but he has made some daring career choices. One of my
> favorite films of all time is "Vanilla Sky", where he spent more than
> half the film in a mask. Not much vanity there. Cruise was also
> excellent in the excellent films "Collateral", "The Last Samurai",
> "Minority Report", "Magnolia" and "Eyes Wide Shut." And those films
> are all within the last seven years!
> While Cruise's off-screen antics may be self-important, preening,
> self-regarding, and smug, there is no doubting his talent. One may
> laugh at the Scientology stuff and the Oprah stuff and the Katie
> Holmes stuff and the South Park stuff, but who really cares? It
> makes for good copy and funny video clips, but at the end of the day
> it's his work that matters.

Well said.

I actually don't mind Cruise myself. I can divorce the off-screen antics
from the actor as I can with the likes of Steve McQueen (bit of a prick)
and Montgomery Clift (disaster).

Personally, of all Cruise's work (and I include BORN ON THE FOURTH OF
JULY), his finest for me is RAIN MAN. He should have at least got a
nomination for a performance of greater depth than that of the
showboating, Academy-courting of Dustin Hoffman. Whenever I watch
the film now, it's Cruise's performance I watch.
--
--Mac

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242523 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 16:07

Mac

.....And as we're talking about preference of actors, can I say that I feel
about Tom Hanks the way Phil feels about Anthony Hopkins?

No, didn't think I could...
--
--Mac

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242528 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 16:37

phil.gerrard1

Tom Zielinski wrote:

> Agreed on all counts regarding Bond/Bourne, and you've made valid points
> Phil. I am one who admittedly does like the Bourne films.

Oh, me too. It just surprised me that Greengrass seemed to be painting
Bourne as a straightforwardly good guy - and that he doesn't seem to
acknowledge the fact that without Bond, there probably wouldn't ever
have been a Bourne in the first place.

> Cruise's body of work is only matched by some of
> the greatest of actors, living or dead. "Preening and smug"? I don't see
> that.

A crude generalisation, I'll admit, and I could have put it a bit
better, but I think the description applies to a large number of the
characters he's played over the years, in films ranging from 'Risky
Business' to 'Top Gun' to 'Days of Thunder' to 'Mission Impossible 2',
and in those movies it's intensely annoying because he's supposed to be
the good guy. When his character isn't supposed to be entirely
sympathetic, as in 'The Color of Money', 'Rain Man', 'Magnolia',
'Vanilla Sky', 'Collateral' etc, it works just fine. I'm not
suggesting that he's at all a bad actor or that he can't play other
types, but he's played an awful lot of self-satisfied characters, and
to me it's a significant and oft-used part of his acting arsenal.

It's like if somebody mentions Christopher Lee, the adjective which
springs to mind for me is 'menace': he's done other things, and is
equally good at some of those too, but that, to me, is a common thread
running through an awful lot of the characters he's played.

Best

Phil

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242529 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 16:40

phil.gerrard1

Before anybody points it out, yes, I am aware that 'menace' is a noun,
and that the adjective would be 'menacing'. Sorry about that.

Phil

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242537 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 19:27

Will Traynor

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242538 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 19:27

Will Traynor

"Mac" <see.mac [at] SPAMLESSvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:48ct98Fid0h3U1 [at] individual.net...
> phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com wrote:
>
>> Above all it strikes me that Greengrass is missing one important point
>> here, which is that like Quaid in 'Total Recall', Bourne was a pretty
>> nasty piece of work before his memory was wiped - in fact, he was far
>> more of a bastard than Bond. That irony is central to the Bourne
>> movies so far, and to talk about the character as 'one of us' or
>> present him as an innocent victim of circumstances is to simplify
>> things a little too much.
>
> I think where they choose to take Bourne is the next film will be
> crucial; if he's on the run again, there's a danger of it becoming
> repetitive. Losing Marie from the second film took a lot of heart
> and soul out of the picture, and the Bourne character.
> --
> --Mac
>
>

I disagree; I thought the second film was just as good as the first.

>
>
>
>
>

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242539 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 20:08

Mac

Will wrote:

>> I think where they choose to take Bourne is the next film will be
>> crucial; if he's on the run again, there's a danger of it becoming
>> repetitive. Losing Marie from the second film took a lot of heart
>> and soul out of the picture, and the Bourne character.
>
> I disagree; I thought the second film was just as good as the first.

It was just as good a thriller. It's just that Bourne lacked somebody
to relate to in the way he did Marie in the first.
--
--Mac

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242544 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 21:25

ahk

phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com wrote:

>Above all it strikes me that Greengrass is missing one important point
>here, which is that like Quaid in 'Total Recall', Bourne was a pretty
>nasty piece of work before his memory was wiped - in fact, he was far
>more of a bastard than Bond. That irony is central to the Bourne
>movies so far, and to talk about the character as 'one of us' or
>present him as an innocent victim of circumstances is to simplify
>things a little too much.

Oh, c'mon Phil. The character's backstory is irrelevant. Matt Damon is
just so cute and cuddly, how can you not want to take him home? Doesn't
matter how many people he's killed off screen or on and that most of them
really didn't deserve it.

Good point about "Total Recall". One of the few original thoughts that
movie had was the twist in the backstory, in which we learn that Ah-nold's
character was actually behind the conspiracy and that the good guy is
merely an artificial personality! Man, that movie should have been so much
better.

Tom Cruise (was: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site) [message #242545 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 21:46

ahk

At 8:54am -0600, 03/22/06, Tom Zielinski <rtomz [at] comcast.net> wrote:

>Agreed on all counts regarding Bond/Bourne, and you've made valid points
>Phil. I am one who admittedly does like the Bourne films.

>As for Tom Cruise, I didn't care all that much for the first MI, and
>didn't even see the second film. (I'll probably see the third because I
>am a big fan of Philip Seymour Hoffman.) BUT, I have to say the man is a
>sensationally good actor. Cruise's body of work is only matched by some
>of the greatest of actors, living or dead. "Preening and smug"? I don't
>see that.

If he weren't, "Jerry Maguire" wouldn't have been such a good movie.

Sometimes I like Cruise, sometimes I don't. I liked him in "Rain Man"
where it took some acting skills to share the screen with such an over the
top character.

But, gah, "A Few Good Men" is a entertaining movie despite Cruise and Demi
Moore. Cruise was terrible in many of those courtroom scenes. The two
Kevins made that movie tolerable. No one would have seen it at all if not
for Nicholson, one of his best characterizations.

>Perhaps off-screen that could be said,

I cannot criticize actors for preening a bit off screen. One of the things
I admire about Cruise is his business sense. He's very straight forward
that his job is to sell himself as a top action star, otherwise he doesn't
get work. We cannot be surprised that there's self-promotion going on in
the movie biz. What shocks me is the number of actors who go out of their
way to be offensive, the idiots. Why sabotage your career?

>Cruise was also excellent in the excellent films "Collateral", "The Last
>Samurai", "Minority Report", "Magnolia" and "Eyes Wide Shut." And those
>films are all within the last seven years!

I agree about "Collateral"; Cruise improved a movie with a good idea but a
badly plotted script. "Minority Report" had its problems. Cruise was ok
but the character should never have been written for him. (In the Philip
K. Dick short story, the character was much older which made sense for
where he was supposed to be in his career.) In that movie, the performance
I remember is Samantha Morton's. Too bad Spielberg chose a standard plot.

>While Cruise's off-screen antics may be self-important, preening,
>self-regarding, and smug, there is no doubting his talent. One may laugh at
>the Scientology stuff and the Oprah stuff and the Katie Holmes stuff and the
>South Park stuff, but who really cares? It makes for good copy and funny
>video clips, but at the end of the day it's his work that matters.

Well, I used to like Katie Holmes before she gave her mind and soul to
Cruise and Scientology. Cannot fault Cruise for pursuing her. Guess Nicole
Kidman was too much woman for him.

>I mean after all, Woody Allen is a genius though his personal life choices
>may seem to some (most?) abhorrent.

Heh. Oh, c'mon. She was over 18 and Allen and she never had a father
daughter relationship. As Allen still considers himself to be a
teenager... Remember, somebody had to love Louise Lasser and Diane Keaton
so you didn't have to.

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242546 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 21:55

phil.gerrard1

Adam wrote:

> Good point about "Total Recall". One of the few original thoughts that
> movie had was the twist in the backstory, in which we learn that Ah-nold's
> character was actually behind the conspiracy and that the good guy is
> merely an artificial personality! Man, that movie should have been so much
> better.

Cronenberg was once slated to direct, and wanted the Quaid character to
be a regular, not to say wimpy-looking type, along the lines of Richard
Dreyfuss, so that the revelation of his past would be even more of a
surprise. A shame it didn't happen.

Best

Phil

OT: Total Recall (WAS: Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site) [message #242547 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 22:22

Paul Clarke

Funny enough, I was thinking about "Total Recall" the other day, and my
pet theory that, from the moment that Quaid is strapped into the chair
to receive the virtual memories, the whole film is a Rekall fantasy. My
admittedly slim evidence for this is the utter implausibility of a
Martian atmosphere becoming oxygen in the space of a few minutes, and a
technician walking up to Quaid to implant the memories and saying "Blue
sky on Mars! Now THAT'S a new one!"

Discuss.

phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com wrote:
> Adam wrote:
>
>
>>Good point about "Total Recall". One of the few original thoughts that
>>movie had was the twist in the backstory, in which we learn that Ah-nold's
>>character was actually behind the conspiracy and that the good guy is
>>merely an artificial personality! Man, that movie should have been so much
>>better.
>
>
> Cronenberg was once slated to direct, and wanted the Quaid character to
> be a regular, not to say wimpy-looking type, along the lines of Richard
> Dreyfuss, so that the revelation of his past would be even more of a
> surprise. A shame it didn't happen.
>
> Best
>
> Phil
>

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242550 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 23:19

Draugnar

Actually, menace can also be a verb... <grin>

Draugnar

"phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1143042019.429159.136840 [at] z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Before anybody points it out, yes, I am aware that 'menace' is a noun,
> and that the adjective would be 'menacing'. Sorry about that.
>
> Phil
>

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242551 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 23:20

"Mac" <see.mac [at] SPAMLESSvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:48d7c2FjirrmU1 [at] individual.net...
> Tom Zielinski wrote:
<snip for brevity>

Then Mac wrote...

> I actually don't mind Cruise myself. I can divorce the off-screen antics
> from the actor as I can with the likes of Steve McQueen (bit of a prick)
> and Montgomery Clift (disaster).
>
> Personally, of all Cruise's work (and I include BORN ON THE FOURTH OF
> JULY), his finest for me is RAIN MAN. He should have at least got a
> nomination for a performance of greater depth than that of the
> showboating, Academy-courting of Dustin Hoffman. Whenever I watch
> the film now, it's Cruise's performance I watch.

Cruise is very good in both, but for me his best performance is in Magnolia.

The "Frank T.J. Mackey" character is, initially at least, such an apparently
irredeemable shit: misogynistic; ego-centric; downright hateful. But
somehow, Cruise manages to invest him with humanity. The strength of his
performance comes, I think, from a sense that the character hates himself,
but has such a good time being loathsome that he almost can't help himself.

--
Regards,

JD
"You were expecting someone else?"

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242552 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 23:20

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242553 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 23:24

ahk

phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com wrote:
>Adam wrote:

>>Good point about "Total Recall". One of the few original thoughts that
>>movie had was the twist in the backstory, in which we learn that
>>Ah-nold's character was actually behind the conspiracy and that the good
>>guy is merely an artificial personality! Man, that movie should have
>>been so much better.

>Cronenberg was once slated to direct, and wanted the Quaid character to
>be a regular, not to say wimpy-looking type, along the lines of Richard
>Dreyfuss, so that the revelation of his past would be even more of a
>surprise. A shame it didn't happen.

Perhaps he was familiar with Philip K. Dick.

Feh. We could have a very long discussion about how Hollywood has failed
to about how Hollywood has yet to produce a decent adaptation of a Dick
story, including "Blade Runner". fwiw, I rather liked the "Total Recall"
tv series (one season only) and felt that the producers made more of an
effort to capture the spirit of Dick's themes (religion and memory),
despite some messed up plotting and dull scifi conventions also included.
It had nothing to do with the movie.

Dick and Fleming were sort of contemporaries. Adaptations of their works
made tons of money for Hollywood long after their deaths. Dick died in
poverty.

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242554 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 23:20

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242555 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 23:26

Sorry about the multiple posts... Somewhere between here and the weird wired
world there's a bit of an echo.

JD

"JD" <john.doherty1-nocannedmeat [at] tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4421cdfe$1_3 [at] mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>
> "Mac" <see.mac [at] SPAMLESSvirgin.net> wrote in message
> news:48d7c2FjirrmU1 [at] individual.net...
>> Tom Zielinski wrote:
> <snip for brevity>
>
> Then Mac wrote...
>
>> I actually don't mind Cruise myself. I can divorce the off-screen antics
>> from the actor as I can with the likes of Steve McQueen (bit of a prick)
>> and Montgomery Clift (disaster).
>>
>> Personally, of all Cruise's work (and I include BORN ON THE FOURTH OF
>> JULY), his finest for me is RAIN MAN. He should have at least got a
>> nomination for a performance of greater depth than that of the
>> showboating, Academy-courting of Dustin Hoffman. Whenever I watch
>> the film now, it's Cruise's performance I watch.
>
> Cruise is very good in both, but for me his best performance is in
> Magnolia.
>
> The "Frank T.J. Mackey" character is, initially at least, such an
> apparently irredeemable shit: misogynistic; ego-centric; downright
> hateful. But somehow, Cruise manages to invest him with humanity. The
> strength of his performance comes, I think, from a sense that the
> character hates himself, but has such a good time being loathsome that he
> almost can't help himself.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> JD
> "You were expecting someone else?"
>

Re: OT: Total Recall [message #242556 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 23:26

ahk

At 9:22pm -0000, 03/22/06, Paul Clarke <jim_caerleon [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

>Funny enough, I was thinking about "Total Recall" the other day, and my
>pet theory that, from the moment that Quaid is strapped into the chair to
>receive the virtual memories, the whole film is a Rekall fantasy. My
>admittedly slim evidence for this is the utter implausibility of a
>Martian atmosphere becoming oxygen in the space of a few minutes, and a
>technician walking up to Quaid to implant the memories and saying "Blue
>sky on Mars! Now THAT'S a new one!"

>Discuss.

Heh. You've convinced me. To enjoy that movie at all, one has to avoid
thinking about science.

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242557 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 23:31

Mac

phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com wrote:
> Adam wrote:
>
>> Good point about "Total Recall". One of the few original thoughts
>> that movie had was the twist in the backstory, in which we learn
>> that Ah-nold's character was actually behind the conspiracy and that
>> the good guy is merely an artificial personality! Man, that movie
>> should have been so much better.
>
> Cronenberg was once slated to direct, and wanted the Quaid character
> to be a regular, not to say wimpy-looking type, along the lines of
> Richard Dreyfuss, so that the revelation of his past would be even
> more of a surprise. A shame it didn't happen.

I thought that was when Bruce Beresford was attached?
--
--Mac

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242558 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 23:47

Will Traynor

"Mac" <see.mac [at] SPAMLESSvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:48dlluFj8dv6U1 [at] individual.net...
> Will wrote:
>
>>> I think where they choose to take Bourne is the next film will be
>>> crucial; if he's on the run again, there's a danger of it becoming
>>> repetitive. Losing Marie from the second film took a lot of heart
>>> and soul out of the picture, and the Bourne character.
>>
>> I disagree; I thought the second film was just as good as the first.
>
> It was just as good a thriller. It's just that Bourne lacked somebody
> to relate to in the way he did Marie in the first.
> --
> --Mac
>
>
>

I agree. I didn't read the book so don't know how faithful it is. But I was
shocked when she died so early on. I did not see it coming. That's something
the Bond movies could use, a little unpredictability.

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242561 ]

Do, 23 März 2006 00:07

Mac

Will wrote:

>> It was just as good a thriller. It's just that Bourne lacked somebody
>> to relate to in the way he did Marie in the first.
>
> I agree. I didn't read the book so don't know how faithful it is. But
> I was shocked when she died so early on. I did not see it coming.
> That's something the Bond movies could use, a little unpredictability.

The difference is Bond has a 44-year history of leaving ladies behind.
Bourne is new to the game and Marie was the woman who came to
his aid. It's a little easier to be unpredictable. And, remember, Bond
did it first 43 (37 in film) years' ago.

I just hope Bourne doesn't hitch-up with sulkypuss Julia Stiles...
--
--Mac

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242568 ]

Do, 23 März 2006 00:43

Will Traynor

"Mac" <see.mac [at] SPAMLESSvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:48e3lrFjdl61U1 [at] individual.net...
> Will wrote:
>
>>> It was just as good a thriller. It's just that Bourne lacked somebody
>>> to relate to in the way he did Marie in the first.
>>
>> I agree. I didn't read the book so don't know how faithful it is. But
>> I was shocked when she died so early on. I did not see it coming.
>> That's something the Bond movies could use, a little unpredictability.
>
> The difference is Bond has a 44-year history of leaving ladies behind.
> Bourne is new to the game and Marie was the woman who came to
> his aid. It's a little easier to be unpredictable. And, remember, Bond
> did it first 43 (37 in film) years' ago.
>

True, but I meant Bond could use a few twists with its storylines overall,
not just involving love interests.

> I just hope Bourne doesn't hitch-up with sulkypuss Julia Stiles...
> --
> --Mac
>
>
>
>

Re: Tom Cruise (was: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site) [message #242576 ]

Do, 23 März 2006 02:01

Tom Zielinski

"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk [at] chinet.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.63.0603221426090.29257 [at] qbbshf...
> At 8:54am -0600, 03/22/06, Tom Zielinski <rtomz [at] comcast.net> wrote:

>>I mean after all, Woody Allen is a genius though his personal life choices
>>may seem to some (most?) abhorrent.
>
> Heh. Oh, c'mon. She was over 18 and Allen and she never had a father
> daughter relationship. As Allen still considers himself to be a
> teenager... Remember, somebody had to love Louise Lasser and Diane Keaton
> so you didn't have to.

LOL! Now THAT is funny!

Tom Zielinski
"...Bond's eyes narrowed. He knew, at some point, he would have to slay this
particular dragon. He settled back in his chair, removing a Morlands' three
ring special from the gunmetal cigarette case. As he waited for the
delicious Balkan/Turkish blend to take effect on his lungs, he reflected
that he always had had an odd attraction to Julie Kavner..."

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242579 ]

Do, 23 März 2006 02:16

phil.gerrard1

Mac wrote:

> I thought that was when Bruce Beresford was attached?

I'm probably conflating here, and my copy of 'Cronenberg on Cronenberg'
is missing presumed borrowed. IIRC Cronenberg wanted Quaid to be far
more of a regular guy than Arnie turned out to be, but it's perfectly
likely that Dreyfuss himself was a Beresford suggestion and I'm getting
things mixed up.

Best

Phil

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242585 ]

Do, 23 März 2006 02:53

Will Traynor

"Mac" <see.mac [at] SPAMLESSvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:48e3lrFjdl61U1 [at] individual.net...
> Will wrote:
>
>>> It was just as good a thriller. It's just that Bourne lacked somebody
>>> to relate to in the way he did Marie in the first.
>>
>> I agree. I didn't read the book so don't know how faithful it is. But
>> I was shocked when she died so early on. I did not see it coming.
>> That's something the Bond movies could use, a little unpredictability.
>
> The difference is Bond has a 44-year history of leaving ladies behind.
> Bourne is new to the game and Marie was the woman who came to
> his aid. It's a little easier to be unpredictable. And, remember, Bond
> did it first 43 (37 in film) years' ago.
>
> I just hope Bourne doesn't hitch-up with sulkypuss Julia Stiles...
> --
> --Mac
>
>
>
>

Although now that I think of it, the Electra storyline was a bit of a twist,
with her turning bad and all. That was one of the highpoints of the plot in
TWINE, IMHO.

Re: OT: Total Recall (WAS: Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site) [message #242593 ]

Do, 23 März 2006 04:34

Rich Handley

Paul Clarke <jim_caerleon [at] hotmail.com> said:
>Funny enough, I was thinking about "Total Recall" the other day, and my
>pet theory that, from the moment that Quaid is strapped into the chair
>to receive the virtual memories, the whole film is a Rekall fantasy. My
>admittedly slim evidence for this is the utter implausibility of a
>Martian atmosphere becoming oxygen in the space of a few minutes, and a
>technician walking up to Quaid to implant the memories and saying "Blue
>sky on Mars! Now THAT'S a new one!"

Actually, I think that's the commonly held interpretation of the film.
I've always assumed as much, in fact.

Re: OT: Total Recall (WAS: Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site) [message #242595 ]

Do, 23 März 2006 04:53

dgates

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:22:25 GMT, Paul Clarke
<jim_caerleon [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com wrote:
>> Adam wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Good point about "Total Recall". One of the few original thoughts that
>>>movie had was the twist in the backstory, in which we learn that Ah-nold's
>>>character was actually behind the conspiracy and that the good guy is
>>>merely an artificial personality! Man, that movie should have been so much
>>>better.
>>
>>
>> Cronenberg was once slated to direct, and wanted the Quaid character to
>> be a regular, not to say wimpy-looking type, along the lines of Richard
>> Dreyfuss, so that the revelation of his past would be even more of a
>> surprise. A shame it didn't happen.

Yeah! That's what Total Recall needed. Extended scenes of weird
organic memory implanting devices, and maybe a twisted, unsexy scene
between our hero and his wife.

Mind you, I'm sure I would have loved a Cronenberg version as well :-)

>Funny enough, I was thinking about "Total Recall" the other day, and my
>pet theory that, from the moment that Quaid is strapped into the chair
>to receive the virtual memories, the whole film is a Rekall fantasy. My
>admittedly slim evidence for this is the utter implausibility of a
>Martian atmosphere becoming oxygen in the space of a few minutes, and a
>technician walking up to Quaid to implant the memories and saying "Blue
>sky on Mars! Now THAT'S a new one!"
>
>Discuss.

Yes, that is correct. That is the secret movie that only us bright
people are able to get.

Re: OT: Total Recall (WAS: Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site) [message #242621 ]

Do, 23 März 2006 13:42

Mac

Rich Handley wrote:

> Paul Clarke <jim_caerleon [at] hotmail.com> said:
>> Funny enough, I was thinking about "Total Recall" the other day, and
>> my pet theory that, from the moment that Quaid is strapped into the
>> chair to receive the virtual memories, the whole film is a Rekall
>> fantasy. My admittedly slim evidence for this is the utter
>> implausibility of a Martian atmosphere becoming oxygen in the space
>> of a few minutes, and a technician walking up to Quaid to implant
>> the memories and saying "Blue sky on Mars! Now THAT'S a new one!"
>
>
> Actually, I think that's the commonly held interpretation of the film.
> I've always assumed as much, in fact.

Me too. I remember engaging in lengthy discussions at the time. The
fact that one of the women from the selection on the computer looked
exactly like Rachel Ticotin was frequently introduced into the evidence.
--
--Mac

Haven't seen it in quite a while.

Re: OT: Total Recall (WAS: Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site) [message #242631 ]

Do, 23 März 2006 15:51

Paul Clarke

Rich Handley wrote:
> Paul Clarke <jim_caerleon [at] hotmail.com> said:
>
>>Funny enough, I was thinking about "Total Recall" the other day, and my
>>pet theory that, from the moment that Quaid is strapped into the chair
>>to receive the virtual memories, the whole film is a Rekall fantasy. My
>>admittedly slim evidence for this is the utter implausibility of a
>>Martian atmosphere becoming oxygen in the space of a few minutes, and a
>>technician walking up to Quaid to implant the memories and saying "Blue
>>sky on Mars! Now THAT'S a new one!"
>
>
>
> Actually, I think that's the commonly held interpretation of the film.
> I've always assumed as much, in fact.
>

Well there you go. I had no idea that it was such a common
interpretation. Guess I'm not special after all. *Sob*

Re: Bond vs Bourne - from the MI6 site [message #242815 ]

So, 26 März 2006 07:26

Kees Boer

That's a great post, Phil!

There is a huge difference between Bond and Bourne. The thing with the Bond
movies that seperates them from Bourne films is the "richness" of them.
That's one of the reasons that I think the older Bond films are so good.
Bond will stay in the best hotels, use the best casinos, the best locations,
the best cars, the best clothes, etc, etc... , even to the best weather.
Also, the soundtrack of the films are very rich, especially the John Berry
ones.

I didn't get that at all from the Bourne films, nor do I get this from the
XXX films.

Kees

"phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1143027875.781440.313670 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.mi6.co.uk/news/index.php?itemid=3498
>
> To be fair to Greengrass, the comments about Bourne being more likeable
> and audiences identifying with him more than with Bond are the Boston
> Herald's spin on his comments - they're not his actual words. He's
> speaking about his personal preferences, but the paper is presenting it
> a little misleadingly as if he's speaking for movie audiences as a
> whole.
>
> Having said that, I think there's a crucial point being missed here in
> comparing Bond to Bourne. The cinematic Bond has, for the most part,
> been fighting for what one might call the greater good, whereas Matt
> Damon's Bourne, so far, has been fighting to save his own skin. I'm
> not sure that it's completely valid to compare the characters' personal
> values given that their circumstances are so different.
>
> For me, the comparison brings to mind the difference between the
> 'Mission Impossible' film and its sequel. The first film works better
> for me because Ethan Hunt is the underdog, the hunted. In MI2, where
> he's persona grata within the IMF again and becomes the hunter, he
> becomes the preening, self-regarding, smug Tom Cruise figure that I've
> come to know and loathe over the last twenty-odd years. If Bourne were
> to make a similar journey and end up working for a government
> organisation rather than running from one, would he turn out to be more
> or less likeable than Bond?
>
> Above all it strikes me that Greengrass is missing one important point
> here, which is that like Quaid in 'Total Recall', Bourne was a pretty
> nasty piece of work before his memory was wiped - in fact, he was far
> more of a bastard than Bond. That irony is central to the Bourne
> movies so far, and to talk about the character as 'one of us' or
> present him as an innocent victim of circumstances is to simplify
> things a little too much.
>
> Best
>
> Phil
>

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