Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads)

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Miscellaneous / Verschiedenes » alt.fan.james-bond » Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads)

Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240383]

Mi, 15 März 2006 03:04

phil.gerrard1

I have to ask, given some of the comments that have been made so far,
what's the solution?

Michael Giacchino's work on 'The Incredibles' was great, but it was a
deliberately retro and above all *humourous* pastiche. If you tried
applying that approach to a serious contemporary movie, it simply
wouldn't work.

As with everything else in the movies, scoring styles change and
develop, and what might have been appropriate in 1969 won't work, or
will be damned distracting, in 2006. John Barry knew this, and that's
why his scores changed and developed over the years.

Since Barry isn't interested in scoring the Bond films any more, and
since an 'Incredibles'-style Barry homage would sound jarring and
unintentionally comical when juxtaposed with 2006 visuals, what do
people actually want? Every Bond composer other than Barry has come in
for some pretty heavy criticism on this list - including from me - but
the job does seem to be a bit of a poisoned chalice. If you depart too
far from the Barry blueprint you get torn to shreds (Serra), but if you
try to stick to it broadly while adding a few contemporary touches
(Martin, Kamen, Arnold), you get attacked as well.

Barry's not doing any more Bond scores, so you can no more wish him
back than you can turn the clock back to 1964 and re-enter the Golden
Age of Bond. Do we want the new scores to hark back to Barry - in
which case the composer is always going to be open to charges of
imitation - or do we want something fresh and different which will most
likely alienate people who grew up expecting Bond scores to have a
certain sound? If you argue that the answer is to combine elements of
both, isn't that exactly the tightrope that David Arnold's been
walking, and who can blame him if sometimes he falls?

It's a bloody difficult job - I think one of the most difficult the
franchise has to offer - and I wonder whether sometimes we've been a
bit too hasty in condemning people who've had to take it on. (Of
course I've done so as well.) It's all very well to complain about not
getting what you want, but until and unless you can define exactly what
you *do* want, is the carping really of any use at all?

Best

Phil

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240384 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 03:42

Will Traynor

"phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1142388259.097149.25670 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I have to ask, given some of the comments that have been made so far,
> what's the solution?
>
> Michael Giacchino's work on 'The Incredibles' was great, but it was a
> deliberately retro and above all *humourous* pastiche. If you tried
> applying that approach to a serious contemporary movie, it simply
> wouldn't work.
>
> As with everything else in the movies, scoring styles change and
> develop, and what might have been appropriate in 1969 won't work, or
> will be damned distracting, in 2006. John Barry knew this, and that's
> why his scores changed and developed over the years.
>
> Since Barry isn't interested in scoring the Bond films any more, and
> since an 'Incredibles'-style Barry homage would sound jarring and
> unintentionally comical when juxtaposed with 2006 visuals, what do
> people actually want? Every Bond composer other than Barry has come in
> for some pretty heavy criticism on this list - including from me - but
> the job does seem to be a bit of a poisoned chalice. If you depart too
> far from the Barry blueprint you get torn to shreds (Serra), but if you
> try to stick to it broadly while adding a few contemporary touches
> (Martin, Kamen, Arnold), you get attacked as well.
>
> Barry's not doing any more Bond scores, so you can no more wish him
> back than you can turn the clock back to 1964 and re-enter the Golden
> Age of Bond. Do we want the new scores to hark back to Barry - in
> which case the composer is always going to be open to charges of
> imitation - or do we want something fresh and different which will most
> likely alienate people who grew up expecting Bond scores to have a
> certain sound? If you argue that the answer is to combine elements of
> both, isn't that exactly the tightrope that David Arnold's been
> walking, and who can blame him if sometimes he falls?
>
> It's a bloody difficult job - I think one of the most difficult the
> franchise has to offer - and I wonder whether sometimes we've been a
> bit too hasty in condemning people who've had to take it on. (Of
> course I've done so as well.) It's all very well to complain about not
> getting what you want, but until and unless you can define exactly what
> you *do* want, is the carping really of any use at all?
>
> Best
>
> Phil
>

One of the things missing from many recent Bond scores is a memorable,
common theme that lasts throughout a movie. Barry was very good at
establishing romantic or suspenseful themes that worked throughout a film,
such as OHMSS, YOLT or TLD. The themes were melodic yet never too obtrusive
that they spoiled a scene. Arnold has not been as successful at establishing
these types of themes. Can anyone remember the DAD or TND themes in the
movie? I can't. But we can all hum the YOLT, GF, OHMSS themes and musical
pieces established by Barry. Let's face it, the theme songs for some of the
more recent films have not been memorable, so the musical pieces throughout
the movies have been equally unmemorable. Bill Conti was able to establish a
nice romantic theme in FYEO, but the music for the action sequences sounds
very dated and over-the-top. Let's face it, one of the attractions for many
Bond aficionados is the music, especially the track record established by
the 60s and 70s films. Lately, however, the themes have been unmemorable.
IMHO, the last few theme songs have been pretty bad, especially the Madonna,
Garbage and Sheryl Crow stuff. Ugh. And GE's theme appears as a direct
ripoff of GF, IMHO. Someone like a Howard Shore, who did some tremendous
work on the Lord of the Rings movies, might be an interesting gamble. He has
done some interesting mood pieces, both romantic and action-oriented. He has
written some fantastic stuff recently. Just throwing his name out there, off
the top of my head.

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240388 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 07:18

phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com wrote:
> I have to ask, given some of the comments that have been made so far,
> what's the solution?
>
> Michael Giacchino's work on 'The Incredibles' was great, but it was a
> deliberately retro and above all *humourous* pastiche. If you tried
> applying that approach to a serious contemporary movie, it simply
> wouldn't work.
>
> As with everything else in the movies, scoring styles change and
> develop, and what might have been appropriate in 1969 won't work, or
> will be damned distracting, in 2006. John Barry knew this, and that's
> why his scores changed and developed over the years.
>
> Since Barry isn't interested in scoring the Bond films any more, and
> since an 'Incredibles'-style Barry homage would sound jarring and
> unintentionally comical when juxtaposed with 2006 visuals, what do
> people actually want? Every Bond composer other than Barry has come in
> for some pretty heavy criticism on this list - including from me - but
> the job does seem to be a bit of a poisoned chalice. If you depart too
> far from the Barry blueprint you get torn to shreds (Serra), but if you
> try to stick to it broadly while adding a few contemporary touches
> (Martin, Kamen, Arnold), you get attacked as well.
>
> Barry's not doing any more Bond scores, so you can no more wish him
> back than you can turn the clock back to 1964 and re-enter the Golden
> Age of Bond. Do we want the new scores to hark back to Barry - in
> which case the composer is always going to be open to charges of
> imitation - or do we want something fresh and different which will most
> likely alienate people who grew up expecting Bond scores to have a
> certain sound? If you argue that the answer is to combine elements of
> both, isn't that exactly the tightrope that David Arnold's been
> walking, and who can blame him if sometimes he falls?
>
> It's a bloody difficult job - I think one of the most difficult the
> franchise has to offer - and I wonder whether sometimes we've been a
> bit too hasty in condemning people who've had to take it on. (Of
> course I've done so as well.) It's all very well to complain about not
> getting what you want, but until and unless you can define exactly what
> you *do* want, is the carping really of any use at all?
>

--- Giacchino's work on The Incredibles certainly was an homage to
Barry's scoring of Bond, but whether done humorously or not, it still
outclasses Arnold's listless mimicking of Barry. The thing you have to
know about Giacchino is that his style varies so that he doesn't really
have a distinctive signature that you can recognize. In finding a list
of his scoring work, the only ones I'm familiar with are Incredibles
and the Alias and Lost TV series. I don't watch Lost, though maybe I
should just for the music if he's doing it, but I have occasionally
watched the idiotic Alias and often the only thing that saves that show
for me is Giacchino's scoring of it, which of course is nothing like
Barry's, but aptly thrilling to listen to when watching the show.
There have been some episodes where I even detected homages to Jerry
Goldsmith's Man from U.N.C.L.E. scoring. This man is good at not only
homages but, I think, also making the homages sound like genuine
original compositions that are extensions, and not mimickings, of the
original scores. In fact, according to the IMDB site, he's already
scoring another spy project, Mission: Impossible III. I know I'm going
to hate the movie, but I just may want to see it to find out what kind
of extensions Giacchino can do with Lalo Schifrin's original scoring of
the TV series.

As for asking what people really want out of the scoring of Bond films,
the fact that you have to ask the question sort of proves that people
aren't getting what they want, otherwise everybody, in the general
sense, would already be happy with what they're getting and the
question wouldn't even be posed. I don't think anybody really
complained about Barry's scoring, especially his 60s work, so obviously
people were getting what they wanted without even realizing what it was
they wanted at the time. In fact, Barry's Bond scores are so
identified with the series that the music itself has become an ongoing
character in the films much like M and Monepenny and Q. Without a
Barry score, or a reasonable facsimile of it, it just doesn't feel like
a Bond movie, that's how integrated the music has become with Bond.
The success of having found the ideal music for Bond has also become
the bane of EON in trying to find someone who could carry on the Bond
sound appropriately and effectively. To veer too far off those 007
strings and brass is to run the risk of people saying, "Great Bond
flick, but the music just killed it." I didn't think much of Hamlisch,
Conti, Serra and others with their renditions which sounded more flat
and one-dimensional than the rich and layered Barry scores. I still
think that Giacchino would do a great job of scoring Bond with his
"extensions" and more variations on themes than Arnold has been able to
come up with. I haven't heard of anyone else so far who can do just as
well or better than Giacchino.

On the other hand, if EON is even entertaining any notions of also
starting fresh with the music, then doing it with CR would be the best
time. Somehow using the same identifiable 007 themes against an
anti-Bond looking Craig won't seem to work as well just as using
Hamlish or Conti or Serra or others didn't seem to work well with
actors who did look Bond-like. This is just another thing working
against CR because EON is messing around with huge icons and unless it
mixes up all the right ingredients together into a tasty offering, it
runs the high risk of souring bad on one level or another or on all
levels. But would Giacchino still be the right composer for a retooled
Bond theme to fit Craig? I don't see why not, going by his
non-U.N.C.L.E. themes in Alias. The key is in how varied the composer
can be, that's what the Bond movies need, because that's when the Bond
scoring has worked best and gave the movies a kind of audio color and
texture.

> Best
>
> Phil

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240391 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 07:39

dgates

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:42:14 -0500, "Will" <willt65 [at] comcast.net>
wrote:

>
>"phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:1142388259.097149.25670 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>I have to ask, given some of the comments that have been made so far,
>> what's the solution?
>>
>> Michael Giacchino's work on 'The Incredibles' was great, but it was a
>> deliberately retro and above all *humourous* pastiche. If you tried
>> applying that approach to a serious contemporary movie, it simply
>> wouldn't work.
>>
>> As with everything else in the movies, scoring styles change and
>> develop, and what might have been appropriate in 1969 won't work, or
>> will be damned distracting, in 2006. John Barry knew this, and that's
>> why his scores changed and developed over the years.
>>
>> Since Barry isn't interested in scoring the Bond films any more, and
>> since an 'Incredibles'-style Barry homage would sound jarring and
>> unintentionally comical when juxtaposed with 2006 visuals, what do
>> people actually want? Every Bond composer other than Barry has come in
>> for some pretty heavy criticism on this list - including from me - but
>> the job does seem to be a bit of a poisoned chalice. If you depart too
>> far from the Barry blueprint you get torn to shreds (Serra), but if you
>> try to stick to it broadly while adding a few contemporary touches
>> (Martin, Kamen, Arnold), you get attacked as well.
>>
>> Barry's not doing any more Bond scores, so you can no more wish him
>> back than you can turn the clock back to 1964 and re-enter the Golden
>> Age of Bond. Do we want the new scores to hark back to Barry - in
>> which case the composer is always going to be open to charges of
>> imitation - or do we want something fresh and different which will most
>> likely alienate people who grew up expecting Bond scores to have a
>> certain sound? If you argue that the answer is to combine elements of
>> both, isn't that exactly the tightrope that David Arnold's been
>> walking, and who can blame him if sometimes he falls?
>>
>> It's a bloody difficult job - I think one of the most difficult the
>> franchise has to offer - and I wonder whether sometimes we've been a
>> bit too hasty in condemning people who've had to take it on. (Of
>> course I've done so as well.) It's all very well to complain about not
>> getting what you want, but until and unless you can define exactly what
>> you *do* want, is the carping really of any use at all?
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Phil
>>
>
>One of the things missing from many recent Bond scores is a memorable,
>common theme that lasts throughout a movie. Barry was very good at
>establishing romantic or suspenseful themes that worked throughout a film,
>such as OHMSS, YOLT or TLD. The themes were melodic yet never too obtrusive
>that they spoiled a scene. Arnold has not been as successful at establishing
>these types of themes. Can anyone remember the DAD or TND themes in the
>movie? I can't. But we can all hum the YOLT, GF, OHMSS themes and musical
>pieces established by Barry. Let's face it, the theme songs for some of the
>more recent films have not been memorable, so the musical pieces throughout
>the movies have been equally unmemorable. Bill Conti was able to establish a
>nice romantic theme in FYEO, but the music for the action sequences sounds
>very dated and over-the-top. Let's face it, one of the attractions for many
>Bond aficionados is the music, especially the track record established by
>the 60s and 70s films. Lately, however, the themes have been unmemorable.
>IMHO, the last few theme songs have been pretty bad, especially the Madonna,
>Garbage and Sheryl Crow stuff. Ugh. And GE's theme appears as a direct
>ripoff of GF, IMHO. Someone like a Howard Shore, who did some tremendous
>work on the Lord of the Rings movies, might be an interesting gamble. He has
>done some interesting mood pieces, both romantic and action-oriented. He has
>written some fantastic stuff recently. Just throwing his name out there, off
>the top of my head.

One of the problems, I think, with trying to work a memorable score
throughout a current Bond movie is that they're way too full of
action.

When I consider how the GF theme was worked throughout the movie, I
remember that there were enough relatively slow scenes to allow it to
play out. It played once while Bond was (leisurely) tailing
Goldfinger along the Alpine road, and again while Bond and Pussy were
strolling toward the barn.

YOLT also found some slow, scenic-type moments to re-play the theme.

DAF's theme... sort of the same, although they could play the opening
part during scenes like the one where Bond is walking up to the house
guarded by Bambi & Thumper.

When David Arnold inserts a 3x speed version of Surrender in the
middle of a car chase, it barely registers.

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240394 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 11:12

phil.gerrard1

Will, then dgates wrote:

> >One of the things missing from many recent Bond scores is a memorable,
> >common theme that lasts throughout a movie.
>
> One of the problems, I think, with trying to work a memorable score
> throughout a current Bond movie is that they're way too full of
> action.

These are associated points about which I think you're both absolutely
right, and I'd never thought about the issue in those terms before.
Where's the real strength and backbone in Barry's scores? Not, I would
argue, in the slam-bang action scenes, as good as his scores may be for
those, but in the more romantic or suspenseful moments. That, I think,
is the heart of Barry's work, and those are the times when he really
gets to play out and restate themes. As much as I like the recent Bond
films, their more action-heavy nature doesn't really give a composer
the same chance to stretch out as the earlier films gave to Barry, and
the music has been a lot more incidental than it used to be, in every
sense of the word.

Best

Phil

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240397 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 11:27

David A McIntee

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240398 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 12:07

phil.gerrard1

WQ wrote:

> The thing you have to
> know about Giacchino is that his style varies so that he doesn't really
> have a distinctive signature that you can recognize.

I'm aware of that, but I'm not convinced that lack of a distinctive
signature style is exactly a positive recommendation for a composing
job.

> This man is good at not only
> homages but, I think, also making the homages sound like genuine
> original compositions that are extensions, and not mimickings, of the
> original scores.

Whatever you may think of Arnold, he has extended the Bond score palate
to include many contemporary electronic textures and sounds. To me
that counts as an extension of the original scores. What you seem to
be saying is that EON should hire somebody who will do exactly what
Arnold has been trying to do, but who will do it better (in your
terms). In the absence of any concrete suggestions about what this
improvement might involve, that's not a very constructive line of
criticism.

> As for asking what people really want out of the scoring of Bond films,
> the fact that you have to ask the question sort of proves that people
> aren't getting what they want, otherwise everybody, in the general
> sense, would already be happy with what they're getting and the
> question wouldn't even be posed.

There hasn't been any element of any Bond film since probably OHMSS
about which the majority of people on this list would agree. The
reason I'm asking the question is to get people who don't like the
recent scores to say exactly what it is they *do* want rather than just
complaining about what they don't. Since the answers which are coming
back are as healthily diverse and contradictory as one would expect
from this NG, doesn't that demonstrate that pleasing everybody (in the
general sense) is frankly impossible?

> Without a
> Barry score, or a reasonable facsimile of it, it just doesn't feel like
> a Bond movie, that's how integrated the music has become with Bond.

At what point does a 'reasonable facsimile' become 'listless
mimicking', and who's to decide where the line should be drawn?

> I didn't think much of Hamlisch,
> Conti, Serra and others with their renditions which sounded more flat
> and one-dimensional than the rich and layered Barry scores.

So out of eight Bond composers so far, only one has done the job to
your satisfaction. Does that tell you that everybody except Barry was
lousy, or rather that it's a bloody difficult job to follow in his
footsteps and satisfy the majority of Bond fans, and that maybe we
should cut the other guys a little slack?

Best

Phil

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240399 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 12:38

Carcharias

"Will" <willt65 [at] comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Qo6dnZRf4oua4orZRVn-qw [at] comcast.com...
> >
>
> Can anyone remember the DAD or TND themes in the movie?

I can very clearly, but maybe that's just me. I think the thing Arnold has
going against him is not only Barry's genius, but the sheen of nostalgia
that surrounds the Bond of the 60s. Barry was part of that and created that,
but that's something Arnold will not have (at least perhaps not for awhile).

I think Arnold did a fine job and I'm sorry he won't be doing the next one.
I've often listened to his soundtracks and enjoyed them very much.

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240401 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 12:46

phil.gerrard1

Jay wrote:

> I think the thing Arnold has
> going against him is not only Barry's genius, but the sheen of nostalgia
> that surrounds the Bond of the 60s. Barry was part of that and created that,
> but that's something Arnold will not have (at least perhaps not for awhile).

Thanks for putting that ten times more succinctly than I managed to :-)

> I think Arnold did a fine job and I'm sorry he won't be doing the next one.

He's still doing CR as far as I know. Or do you mean he's said
something about not returning for Bond 22?

Best

Phil

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240402 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 12:53

Carcharias

"phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1142423210.396653.270280 [at] p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> He's still doing CR as far as I know. Or do you mean he's said
> something about not returning for Bond 22?

Oh, I thought I read in another post he wasn't doing this one. I'm glad to
hear he is. I've been trying to avoid spoilers so I'm not much of an expert
on what's been going on with CR.

Jay

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240403 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 12:59

phil.gerrard1

Jay wrote:

> I've been trying to avoid spoilers

Blimey! That's one hell of a task you've set yourself, so good luck
with it...

Best

Phil

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240404 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 13:04

Carcharias

"phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1142423995.308758.160540 [at] i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Jay wrote:
>
> > I've been trying to avoid spoilers
>
> Blimey! That's one hell of a task you've set yourself, so good luck
> with it...

Yeah, if I were smart I'd just avoid this NG but I'd miss all the Bond
talk....

Jay

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240406 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 15:03

Will Traynor

"Carcharias" <carcharias_1966 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a1TRf.18044$wH5.6259 [at] trnddc02...
>
> "Will" <willt65 [at] comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Qo6dnZRf4oua4orZRVn-qw [at] comcast.com...
>> >
>>
>> Can anyone remember the DAD or TND themes in the movie?
>
> I can very clearly, but maybe that's just me. I think the thing Arnold has
> going against him is not only Barry's genius, but the sheen of nostalgia
> that surrounds the Bond of the 60s. Barry was part of that and created
> that,
> but that's something Arnold will not have (at least perhaps not for
> awhile).
>
> I think Arnold did a fine job and I'm sorry he won't be doing the next
> one.
> I've often listened to his soundtracks and enjoyed them very much.
>
>
>

Personally, I can't hum a bar of any of the music from any of the recent
films. Serra's work was just terrible. There is a big difference between
sitting down and listening to a CD and listening to the music while watching
a movie. Good music doesn't always mean it's a good score.

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240408 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 15:11

Will Traynor

"phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1142420867.641696.101800 [at] p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> WQ wrote:
>
>> The thing you have to
>> know about Giacchino is that his style varies so that he doesn't really
>> have a distinctive signature that you can recognize.
>
> I'm aware of that, but I'm not convinced that lack of a distinctive
> signature style is exactly a positive recommendation for a composing
> job.
>
>> This man is good at not only
>> homages but, I think, also making the homages sound like genuine
>> original compositions that are extensions, and not mimickings, of the
>> original scores.
>
> Whatever you may think of Arnold, he has extended the Bond score palate
> to include many contemporary electronic textures and sounds. To me
> that counts as an extension of the original scores. What you seem to
> be saying is that EON should hire somebody who will do exactly what
> Arnold has been trying to do, but who will do it better (in your
> terms). In the absence of any concrete suggestions about what this
> improvement might involve, that's not a very constructive line of
> criticism.
>
>> As for asking what people really want out of the scoring of Bond films,
>> the fact that you have to ask the question sort of proves that people
>> aren't getting what they want, otherwise everybody, in the general
>> sense, would already be happy with what they're getting and the
>> question wouldn't even be posed.
>
> There hasn't been any element of any Bond film since probably OHMSS
> about which the majority of people on this list would agree. The
> reason I'm asking the question is to get people who don't like the
> recent scores to say exactly what it is they *do* want rather than just
> complaining about what they don't. Since the answers which are coming
> back are as healthily diverse and contradictory as one would expect
> from this NG, doesn't that demonstrate that pleasing everybody (in the
> general sense) is frankly impossible?
>
>> Without a
>> Barry score, or a reasonable facsimile of it, it just doesn't feel like
>> a Bond movie, that's how integrated the music has become with Bond.
>
> At what point does a 'reasonable facsimile' become 'listless
> mimicking', and who's to decide where the line should be drawn?
>
>> I didn't think much of Hamlisch,
>> Conti, Serra and others with their renditions which sounded more flat
>> and one-dimensional than the rich and layered Barry scores.
>
> So out of eight Bond composers so far, only one has done the job to
> your satisfaction. Does that tell you that everybody except Barry was
> lousy, or rather that it's a bloody difficult job to follow in his
> footsteps and satisfy the majority of Bond fans, and that maybe we
> should cut the other guys a little slack?
>
> Best
>
> Phil
>

Personally, Arnold just doesn't come up with many memorable themes for his
movies. And he really suffers during the romantic stuff. I would consider a
different composer, someone who has experience doing both suspense/action
and quiet moments. I still think Howard Shore is worth a try, although I'm
sure he comes with quite a pricetag.

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240411 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 15:26

Garmt de Vries

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:59:55 +0100, phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com
<phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Jay wrote:
>
>> I've been trying to avoid spoilers
>
> Blimey! That's one hell of a task you've set yourself, so good luck
> with it...

I'm trying the same, and it's not easy. OK, knowing that Daniel Craig is
the next James Bond doesn't really spoil anything, but I already try to
avoid other casting news. Just knowing that there will be a Le Chiffre and
a Vesper Lynd tells you something about the plot.

Reading this newsgroup without getting spoilers is doable. Just skim the
subject lines, and mentally discard those that seem like spoilers. This
only works if the Subject itself contains no spoilers. For example,

** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **
** Spoiler space **

there's a thread on the Subject "Pre-Title Sequence will be in
black/white". I have no idea whether this is true or just another silly
rumour, but I had rather not read this...

Anyway, this newsgroup will probably be relatively safe for another couple
of months, but from September or October onwards, I guess I'll stay away
from it.

--
Garmt de Vries

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240419 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 17:59

phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com wrote:
> WQ wrote:
>
> > The thing you have to
> > know about Giacchino is that his style varies so that he doesn't really
> > have a distinctive signature that you can recognize.
>
> I'm aware of that, but I'm not convinced that lack of a distinctive
> signature style is exactly a positive recommendation for a composing
> job.

--- By that I mean that some composers have a distinctive style that
they themselves can't escape from. Barry is one of those composers, as
is John Williams. It's as if they can't get beyond their own
parameters because they excel [even though I'm no real fan of Williams
but do recognize his strength] so much in the style they have for
themselves. Then there are other composers who are like chameleons,
who have no unique expression of their music but can dig into almost
any kind of style and make it sound like it isn't theirs. Some are
better at it than others and Giacchino must rank as among the best, not
only as a chameleon but also as one who can pay homage and be true to
it as opposed to trying to create a hit-and-miss semblance of it. So
yes, the one without the distinctive signature style is the one who'd
best be able to do a Bond because if it was someone like John Williams,
the score would sound too muck like Williams, as in pompous and regal.
The best of Bond's themes are those that deliver a sense of dread,
danger or impending doom as in GF and TB, as well as exotic or romantic
flourishes as in FRWL and YOLT. I don't see someone like Williams, or
a lot of composers today, capturing that.

>
> > This man is good at not only
> > homages but, I think, also making the homages sound like genuine
> > original compositions that are extensions, and not mimickings, of the
> > original scores.
>
> Whatever you may think of Arnold, he has extended the Bond score palate
> to include many contemporary electronic textures and sounds. To me
> that counts as an extension of the original scores. What you seem to
> be saying is that EON should hire somebody who will do exactly what
> Arnold has been trying to do, but who will do it better (in your
> terms). In the absence of any concrete suggestions about what this
> improvement might involve, that's not a very constructive line of
> criticism.

--- Well, you've heard Giacchino do The Incredibles, so that pretty
well indicates a starting point for him from which he'd be able to
expand. I look at his Incredibles work almost as an audition tape.
That's what he's capable of doing, but let's see what he really can do.
If his work on Mission: Impossible 3 lives up to, or exceeds, what I'm
saying about him, then there'd be no doubt in my mind that someone who
can do Bond, U.N.C.L.E. and M:I and do it right is absolutely the right
man for the job. The man has an ear for the basic structure of those
themes and has an understanding of how to follow up on them. An
example of someone who was totally wrong for scoring workwas John
McNeely when he did The Avengers movie. There was a perfect case of
someone who didn't hear the theme nor understand how to use it.

>
> > As for asking what people really want out of the scoring of Bond films,
> > the fact that you have to ask the question sort of proves that people
> > aren't getting what they want, otherwise everybody, in the general
> > sense, would already be happy with what they're getting and the
> > question wouldn't even be posed.
>
> There hasn't been any element of any Bond film since probably OHMSS
> about which the majority of people on this list would agree. The
> reason I'm asking the question is to get people who don't like the
> recent scores to say exactly what it is they *do* want rather than just
> complaining about what they don't. Since the answers which are coming
> back are as healthily diverse and contradictory as one would expect
> from this NG, doesn't that demonstrate that pleasing everybody (in the
> general sense) is frankly impossible?

--- How can one really ask what people "do" want out of a current Bond
score when people, as a rule, don't even know what they want to begin
with until they get it. It's only then, when offered something, can
they say they want it or don't. Did people really want iPods? Of
course not. Nobody knew what they were. But once they were offered
it, then it was shown that people did want it. The same with Bond
music. Until people hear what is being offered by way of new Bond
music and then decide if it's any good or not, they can't, with any
sort of credible unanimty, say what they want. So it's kind of a
pointless question to ask.

>
> > Without a
> > Barry score, or a reasonable facsimile of it, it just doesn't feel like
> > a Bond movie, that's how integrated the music has become with Bond.
>
> At what point does a 'reasonable facsimile' become 'listless
> mimicking', and who's to decide where the line should be drawn?

--- Hmm, let's see if I can define that. Listless mimicking is what
Arnld does. It all sort of sounds like Bond, but it's often too muted
and lacks definition. I can recall the themes in Barry's earlier
Bonds, but beats me what themes Arnold had to separate TND from TWINE
from DAD. It just all sounded one-note and listless. A reasonable
facsimile would be someone who'd be between Arnold and Giacchino. That
is, he'd also be mimicking Barry but capturing the tone, if not the
soul, of Barry. Additionally, he wouldn't be expansive in his themes,
there wouldn't be much variation. The next step, of course, would be
Giacchino, or someone like him, who demonstrates a potential to capture
the tone and soul of Barry and be expansive in theme variations. Yeah,
I guess that's it.

>
> > I didn't think much of Hamlisch,
> > Conti, Serra and others with their renditions which sounded more flat
> > and one-dimensional than the rich and layered Barry scores.
>
> So out of eight Bond composers so far, only one has done the job to
> your satisfaction. Does that tell you that everybody except Barry was
> lousy, or rather that it's a bloody difficult job to follow in his
> footsteps and satisfy the majority of Bond fans, and that maybe we
> should cut the other guys a little slack?

--- It tells me that as capable as the other composers may have been
for whatever else they did, they just weren't right for Bond. Just
because one is composer doesn't mean you can get it right. The same
goes for Fleming and his descendants when it comes to books. It's
difficult to do, true, but before you get the right person who has an
ear for what Bond music is, the people at EON can't be tone deaf
themselves.

>
> Best
>
> Phil

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240426 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 21:07

James Hunter

I remember the first time I heard the great Barryesque swell of music at the
end of DAD when the helicopter shot slides toward and around the temple by
the sea. I thought it was wonderful. I also thought, however, that it was
Barryesque and made me nostalgic for Barry rather than grateful for Arnold.

Recently I have watched some of the reports on the CR set and music was
included as a mood-enhancer for some of the edited action work. It was, I
believe, some of the Oakenfold reworked Bond theme - and it seriously did
not work.

So there's no going back. Only forward. That means that we can't reference
what Arnold (or anyone else) "should" do by looking at what came before. So
that changes the perspective: what *hasn't* come before in Bond music? And
doesn't this fit in with what Eon are looking to do with the film as a
whole?

Thanks!
James

"phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1142388259.097149.25670 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I have to ask, given some of the comments that have been made so far,
> what's the solution?
>
> Michael Giacchino's work on 'The Incredibles' was great, but it was a
> deliberately retro and above all *humourous* pastiche. If you tried
> applying that approach to a serious contemporary movie, it simply
> wouldn't work.
>
> As with everything else in the movies, scoring styles change and
> develop, and what might have been appropriate in 1969 won't work, or
> will be damned distracting, in 2006. John Barry knew this, and that's
> why his scores changed and developed over the years.
>
> Since Barry isn't interested in scoring the Bond films any more, and
> since an 'Incredibles'-style Barry homage would sound jarring and
> unintentionally comical when juxtaposed with 2006 visuals, what do
> people actually want? Every Bond composer other than Barry has come in
> for some pretty heavy criticism on this list - including from me - but
> the job does seem to be a bit of a poisoned chalice. If you depart too
> far from the Barry blueprint you get torn to shreds (Serra), but if you
> try to stick to it broadly while adding a few contemporary touches
> (Martin, Kamen, Arnold), you get attacked as well.
>
> Barry's not doing any more Bond scores, so you can no more wish him
> back than you can turn the clock back to 1964 and re-enter the Golden
> Age of Bond. Do we want the new scores to hark back to Barry - in
> which case the composer is always going to be open to charges of
> imitation - or do we want something fresh and different which will most
> likely alienate people who grew up expecting Bond scores to have a
> certain sound? If you argue that the answer is to combine elements of
> both, isn't that exactly the tightrope that David Arnold's been
> walking, and who can blame him if sometimes he falls?
>
> It's a bloody difficult job - I think one of the most difficult the
> franchise has to offer - and I wonder whether sometimes we've been a
> bit too hasty in condemning people who've had to take it on. (Of
> course I've done so as well.) It's all very well to complain about not
> getting what you want, but until and unless you can define exactly what
> you *do* want, is the carping really of any use at all?
>
> Best
>
> Phil
>

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240431 ]

Mi, 15 März 2006 22:47

ste7ens

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240439 ]

Do, 16 März 2006 01:16

phil.gerrard1

ste7ens [at] aol.com wrote:

> You mean the cue Arnold self-stole from the intro of TWINE's ski
> sequence?

Yeah, but self-referential cues are nothing new in Bond films - witness
Barry's witty mimicking of some of his YOLT score during the satellite
scenes in DAF. In any case, DAD was so full of back-references that
one could hardly blame the composer for including one of his own.

Best

Phil

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240501 ]

Fr, 17 März 2006 00:28

gerard.morvan

"phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le
message de news: 1142388259.097149.25670 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I have to ask, given some of the comments that have been made so far,
> what's the solution?
>
> Michael Giacchino's work on 'The Incredibles' was great, but it was a
> deliberately retro and above all *humourous* pastiche. If you tried
> applying that approach to a serious contemporary movie, it simply
> wouldn't work.
>
Yes. But his work on Alias shows that he can write great modern score. I
think that if Arnold is not available, Giacchino would be a fine successor
to John Barry. Just my opinion, of course.

Gérard Morvan

"Kentoc'h Mervel!"

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240696 ]

Mo, 20 März 2006 21:37

Draugnar

He is also the composer for Lost on ABC, so he can do eerie and creepy quite
well. He is a very versatile composer and could probably pull off about
anything he wanted. Although I'd really love to see Klaus Badelt and/or
Hans Zimmer get their shot. They know how to do action pieces and they do
them well.

Draugnar

"David A McIntee" <david.mcintee [at] btNOTopenTOSPAMMERSworld.com> wrote in
message news:dv8q6d$1hd$1 [at] nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> "phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:1142388259.097149.25670 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> I have to ask, given some of the comments that have been made so far,
>> what's the solution?
>>
>> Michael Giacchino's work on 'The Incredibles' was great, but it was a
>> deliberately retro and above all *humourous* pastiche. If you tried
>> applying that approach to a serious contemporary movie, it simply
>> wouldn't work.
>
> On a side note, Giacchino has done some amazing work in videogames -
> especially Medal Of Honor Frontline, easily his best.
>
> He's scoring Mission Impossible 3, so we'll soon know how he handles a
> contemporary action thriller.
>
> Personally I'm curious to see how Jesper Kyd would do with Bond...
>
>
> --
> Redemption 07 - B5 B7 and Beyond, 23-25 February 2007.
> http://www.smof.com/redemption
>
> "In the ghetto, washing non colourfast synthetics at 60 degrees could cost
> you your life..." [Ali G]
>
> http://lonemagpie.livejournal.com
>
>
>

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240697 ]

Mo, 20 März 2006 21:46

Draugnar

"Will" <willt65 [at] comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LJKdnUQUC4XgvYXZnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>
> "phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:1142420867.641696.101800 [at] p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>> WQ wrote:
>>
>>> The thing you have to
>>> know about Giacchino is that his style varies so that he doesn't really
>>> have a distinctive signature that you can recognize.
>>
>> I'm aware of that, but I'm not convinced that lack of a distinctive
>> signature style is exactly a positive recommendation for a composing
>> job.
>>
>>> This man is good at not only
>>> homages but, I think, also making the homages sound like genuine
>>> original compositions that are extensions, and not mimickings, of the
>>> original scores.
>>
>> Whatever you may think of Arnold, he has extended the Bond score palate
>> to include many contemporary electronic textures and sounds. To me
>> that counts as an extension of the original scores. What you seem to
>> be saying is that EON should hire somebody who will do exactly what
>> Arnold has been trying to do, but who will do it better (in your
>> terms). In the absence of any concrete suggestions about what this
>> improvement might involve, that's not a very constructive line of
>> criticism.
>>
>>> As for asking what people really want out of the scoring of Bond films,
>>> the fact that you have to ask the question sort of proves that people
>>> aren't getting what they want, otherwise everybody, in the general
>>> sense, would already be happy with what they're getting and the
>>> question wouldn't even be posed.
>>
>> There hasn't been any element of any Bond film since probably OHMSS
>> about which the majority of people on this list would agree. The
>> reason I'm asking the question is to get people who don't like the
>> recent scores to say exactly what it is they *do* want rather than just
>> complaining about what they don't. Since the answers which are coming
>> back are as healthily diverse and contradictory as one would expect
>> from this NG, doesn't that demonstrate that pleasing everybody (in the
>> general sense) is frankly impossible?
>>
>>> Without a
>>> Barry score, or a reasonable facsimile of it, it just doesn't feel like
>>> a Bond movie, that's how integrated the music has become with Bond.
>>
>> At what point does a 'reasonable facsimile' become 'listless
>> mimicking', and who's to decide where the line should be drawn?
>>
>>> I didn't think much of Hamlisch,
>>> Conti, Serra and others with their renditions which sounded more flat
>>> and one-dimensional than the rich and layered Barry scores.
>>
>> So out of eight Bond composers so far, only one has done the job to
>> your satisfaction. Does that tell you that everybody except Barry was
>> lousy, or rather that it's a bloody difficult job to follow in his
>> footsteps and satisfy the majority of Bond fans, and that maybe we
>> should cut the other guys a little slack?
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Phil
>>
>
> Personally, Arnold just doesn't come up with many memorable themes for his
> movies. And he really suffers during the romantic stuff. I would consider
> a different composer, someone who has experience doing both
> suspense/action and quiet moments. I still think Howard Shore is worth a
> try, although I'm sure he comes with quite a pricetag.

Coming off the LOTR trilogy, you bet he does!

Serra did the sweeping strings things quite well, but his strange electronic
kettle drums for the suspense were a little too off kilter for my taste. I
do wonder what the original soundtrack for the tank chase was, though.

Arnold, though, showed great promise in ID4. For a Brit, he captured a very
"American" patriotic feel (as opposed to the British patriotic feel, which
is quite different). And some of his work has been enjoyable, but a little
too derivative. I think my favorite parts of his are from TND: the car
chase, and his scene with Q when he gets the 735il at the airplane hanger.

I rather enjoyed Michael Kamen's LTK soundtrack is probably my favorite
non-Barry work, though.

Draugnar

Re: Bond scores (following up on John Barry and CR theme threads) [message #240698 ]

Mo, 20 März 2006 21:50

Draugnar

Just exactly how does one steal from one's self anyways? He wrote TWINE,
and DAD was an homage to ALL of the previous 19 EON-produced 007 movies.
More importantly, when I heard it in the theater, it sounded like the theme
from YOLT, down to the chord progression being used. I'm not saying that
was a bad thing either as, again, the movie was an homage.

Draugnar

<ste7ens [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1142459261.664035.151520 [at] z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I remember the first time I heard the great Barryesque swell of music
> at the
> end of DAD when the helicopter shot slides toward and around the temple
> by
> the sea. I thought it was wonderful. I also thought, however, that it
> was
> Barryesque and made me nostalgic for Barry rather than grateful for
> Arnold.
>
> You mean the cue Arnold self-stole from the intro of TWINE's ski
> sequence?
>

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