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Music / Musik » alt.fan.frank-zappa » OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren
OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240158] Mi, 15 März 2006 06:44
espinoza  
The "New" Cars just performed "Good Times Roll" on The Tonight Show w/
Jay Leno. Todd Rundgren, Elliot Easton, Greg Hawkes, and two flunkies
that I don't feel like looking up.

What is Todd thinking? Is he broke or something?

I can understand Easton and Hawkes wanting to trade on their only
claim to fame, but I have no clue what's going through Todd Rundgren's
head.

Todd Rundgren
Solo Artist: Check
formerly of The Nazz: Check
founder of Utopia: Check

currently touring with The Cars: HUH?!
--
Mike E.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240160 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 09:48
2nz  
Mike Espinoza wrote:
> The "New" Cars just performed "Good Times Roll" on The Tonight Show w/
> Jay Leno. Todd Rundgren, Elliot Easton, Greg Hawkes, and two flunkies
> that I don't feel like looking up.
>
> What is Todd thinking? Is he broke or something?
>
> I can understand Easton and Hawkes wanting to trade on their only
> claim to fame, but I have no clue what's going through Todd Rundgren's
> head.
>
> Todd Rundgren
> Solo Artist: Check
> formerly of The Nazz: Check
> founder of Utopia: Check
>
> currently touring with The Cars: HUH?!

It's a job, plain and simple. He lost money financing his last tour.
He's building a new home and has a son to put through college.
He's played with Ringo, where he did other artist's songs and he played
in the Return To Abbey Road Beatles tribute band....so this kinda stuff
isn't really new for Todd.
He is already thinking about a solo album, which he describes as guitar
oriented arena rock, which he'll work on after the New Cars tour.
He also has plans to work with Donald Fagen.
And by the way, the bass player is Kasim Sulton (Utopia, Meatloaf) and
the drummer is Prairie Prince (Tubes, XTC, Jefferson Airplane).
....For anyone who may be interested, here's a link to a New Cars video,
featuring a new song.
Todd's playing his role with tongue in cheek:
http://www.flashenhanced.com/carsblondie/video/not_tonight.w mv
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240162 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 12:52
Les Cargill  
Mike Espinoza wrote:

> The "New" Cars just performed "Good Times Roll" on The Tonight Show w/
> Jay Leno. Todd Rundgren, Elliot Easton, Greg Hawkes, and two flunkies
> that I don't feel like looking up.
>
> What is Todd thinking? Is he broke or something?
>
> I can understand Easton and Hawkes wanting to trade on their only
> claim to fame, but I have no clue what's going through Todd Rundgren's
> head.
>
> Todd Rundgren
> Solo Artist: Check
> formerly of The Nazz: Check
> founder of Utopia: Check
>
> currently touring with The Cars: HUH?!
> --
> Mike E.

Steve Morse was/is playing lead for Deep Purple. I would
imagine it pays well.

--
Les Cargill
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240163 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 15:09
espinoza  
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:52:50 GMT, Les Cargill <lNOcargill [at] cfl.Arr.com>
wrote:

>Mike Espinoza wrote:
>
>> The "New" Cars just performed "Good Times Roll" on The Tonight Show w/
>> Jay Leno. Todd Rundgren, Elliot Easton, Greg Hawkes, and two flunkies
>> that I don't feel like looking up.
>>
>> What is Todd thinking? Is he broke or something?
>>
>> I can understand Easton and Hawkes wanting to trade on their only
>> claim to fame, but I have no clue what's going through Todd Rundgren's
>> head.
>>
>> Todd Rundgren
>> Solo Artist: Check
>> formerly of The Nazz: Check
>> founder of Utopia: Check
>>
>> currently touring with The Cars: HUH?!
>> --
>> Mike E.
>
>Steve Morse was/is playing lead for Deep Purple. I would
>imagine it pays well.
>

Is. And you make a good point.

I was initially appalled by the idea of Deep Purple with Morse, but
considering the tension with Blackmore, it worked out better this way.
Hell, I even like the Bananas album. Jon Lord left the band, as well
(on good terms, reportedly), but he was replaced by Don Airey, which
is kind of a no-brainer. Personally, I won't see them live because I
saw them with the classic lineup in 1985 and from what I saw of the
Live 8 coverage on TV, I wouldn't really care for their current live
show. I'm more satisfied with my memories.

I must admit that I don't know Rundgren's situation or what kind of
relationship Easton and Hawkes have with Ric Ocasek. I'm sure
Easton's involvement with Creedence Clearwater Revisted cemented in
his mind that a band doesn't need its singer/songwriter/visionary in
order to reform, even if that individual is still alive and
particularly if they don't get along with him.

Benjamin Orr is dead and I thought that I read somewhere a few years
ago that David Robinson left the music business entirely, so they were
going to have to hire a couple of flunkies anyway. I'm just rather
shocked at Rundgren replacing Ocasek.

Maybe I'm making too big a deal out of it.
--
Mike E.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240164 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 15:14
espinoza  
On 15 Mar 2006 00:48:22 -0800, "Ukeboy" <U.Betcherass [at] gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>Mike Espinoza wrote:
>> The "New" Cars just performed "Good Times Roll" on The Tonight Show w/
>> Jay Leno. Todd Rundgren, Elliot Easton, Greg Hawkes, and two flunkies
>> that I don't feel like looking up.
>>
>> What is Todd thinking? Is he broke or something?
>>
>> I can understand Easton and Hawkes wanting to trade on their only
>> claim to fame, but I have no clue what's going through Todd Rundgren's
>> head.
>>
>> Todd Rundgren
>> Solo Artist: Check
>> formerly of The Nazz: Check
>> founder of Utopia: Check
>>
>> currently touring with The Cars: HUH?!
>
>It's a job, plain and simple. He lost money financing his last tour.
>He's building a new home and has a son to put through college.
>He's played with Ringo, where he did other artist's songs and he played
>in the Return To Abbey Road Beatles tribute band....so this kinda stuff
>isn't really new for Todd.

True. The man does have to make a living.

>He is already thinking about a solo album, which he describes as guitar
>oriented arena rock, which he'll work on after the New Cars tour.

Good to hear. I don't think I've listened to a Todd Rundgren album
since Nearly Human.

>He also has plans to work with Donald Fagen.

As long as they don't call it The New Steely Dan, that sounds cool.

>And by the way, the bass player is Kasim Sulton (Utopia, Meatloaf) and
>the drummer is Prairie Prince (Tubes, XTC, Jefferson Airplane).

Wow, THAT was Prarie Prince. I didn't recognize him.

>...For anyone who may be interested, here's a link to a New Cars video,
>featuring a new song.
>Todd's playing his role with tongue in cheek:
> http://www.flashenhanced.com/carsblondie/video/not_tonight.w mv

Well, I have a little more respect for the endeavor if no one is
taking it too seriously.
--
Mike E.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240166 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 17:27
Biffy the Elephant Sh  
>I'm just rather shocked at Rundgren replacing Ocasek.

"Wanted: lead singer with weird, oblong-shaped head..."

Your pal,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240167 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 18:08
Mike Espinoza  
Biffy the Elephant Shrew wrote:
> >I'm just rather shocked at Rundgren replacing Ocasek.
>
> "Wanted: lead singer with weird, oblong-shaped head..."

"...must have odd voice and wear sunglasses as much as possible."
--
Mike E.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240168 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 19:27
Tamara  
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:09:50 -0500, Mike Espinoza wrote
(in article <44181f34.251245191 [at] news-server.austin.rr.com>):

I'm just rather
> shocked at Rundgren replacing Ocasek.
>
> Maybe I'm making too big a deal out of it.
> --
> Mike E.

If you listen to Utopia's "You Make Me Crazy"
you can justify Rundgren's involvement with
these New Cars, a viable replacement for
Ococksek.

Tamara
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240169 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 19:31
Tamara  
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:27:35 -0500, Biffy the Elephant Shrew wrote
(in article <1142440054.944867.263370 [at] e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>):

>> I'm just rather shocked at Rundgren replacing Ocasek.
>
> "Wanted: lead singer with weird, oblong-shaped head..."
>
> Your pal,
> Biffy the Elephant Shrew
>


Le' Ocockseke''

Charleston Boogies up his asse'

Tamara
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240175 ] Do, 16 März 2006 06:35
Spindles in Beat Pops  
On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:44:46 GMT, espinoza [at] yahoo.combatboots (Mike
Espinoza) wrote:

>The "New" Cars just performed "Good Times Roll" on The Tonight Show w/
>Jay Leno. Todd Rundgren, Elliot Easton, Greg Hawkes, and two flunkies
>that I don't feel like looking up.
>


You should hear some of the albums he produced in the early 1990s.


-D
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240176 ] Do, 16 März 2006 08:27
Frunobulax  
> I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren

I've never managed to develop any for him.

Can somebody, anybody, please point out an album or track or two that
would "enlighten" me.

All I've ever heard from this guy (admittedly little) has sounded like
just so much, bad, white-bread, pedestrian pap . . .

NP: Low - DNA
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240177 ] Do, 16 März 2006 09:33
Dan Rowan  
"Frunobulax" <sevrinx2 [at] aol.com> wrote in news:1142494056.519456.289730
[at] z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

>> I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren
>
> I've never managed to develop any for him.
>
> Can somebody, anybody, please point out an album or track or two that
> would "enlighten" me.
>
> All I've ever heard from this guy (admittedly little) has sounded like
> just so much, bad, white-bread, pedestrian pap . . .
>
> NP: Low - DNA
>
"Liars" is a very good album to start with. It has a good mix of styles
on it and his observations are pretty much dead on. I never cared much
for him until my girlfriend dragged me to see him in Petersburg, VA 7 or
8 years ago. He rocked the place. He's definitely worth a listen.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240178 ] Do, 16 März 2006 09:50
tthomas  
Frunobulax wrote:
>
> > I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren
>
> I've never managed to develop any for him.
>
> Can somebody, anybody, please point out an album or track or two that
> would "enlighten" me.
>
> All I've ever heard from this guy (admittedly little) has sounded like
> just so much, bad, white-bread, pedestrian pap . . .

The last sentence suggests that no matter what's recommended, you're not
going to like it.

That being said, he's great live.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240181 ] Do, 16 März 2006 11:05
niknikniknik  
"Frunobulax" <sevrinx2 [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1142494056.519456.289730 [at] z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren
>
> I've never managed to develop any for him.
>
> Can somebody, anybody, please point out an album or track or two that
> would "enlighten" me.
>
> All I've ever heard from this guy (admittedly little) has sounded like
> just so much, bad, white-bread, pedestrian pap . . .
>
> NP: Low - DNA
>

Play side 1 of 'A Wizard, A True Star' and get back to us.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240193 ] Do, 16 März 2006 16:05
Frunobulax  
Thanks, guys. I'll give 'em a listen.

>> All I've ever heard from this guy (admittedly little) has sounded like
>> just so much, bad, white-bread, pedestrian pap . . .

> The last sentence suggests that no matter what's recommended, you're not
> going to like it.

Are you saying that's all he produces, or is it possible he's released
one or two bad songs in his career which I might have had the
misfortune of hearing and thinking it represented his style as a whole?
You'll hoit your legs jumpin' too contusions like dat.

NP: Broken Heart - Skip Spence
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240194 ] Do, 16 März 2006 16:14
pbuzby2002  
Frunobulax wrote:

> Are you saying that's all he produces, or is it possible he's released
> one or two bad songs in his career which I might have had the
> misfortune of hearing and thinking it represented his style as a whole?

"Can We Still Be Friends?" is on the sappy side. Otherwise, I wouldn't
say that Todd's hits are misleadingly weak, although they're simpler
than what you'll find on many of his albums.

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240199 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 00:01
Milhouse Guidry of th[2]  
Frunobulax wrote:
>>I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren
>
>
> I've never managed to develop any for him.
>
> Can somebody, anybody, please point out an album or track or two that
> would "enlighten" me.

I'm not a huge Rundgren fan, but I think a good answer to your question
would be the first side of "A Wizard / A True Star".


--
Milhouse Guidry of the mWo
With all the style and finesse of a purchase of armaments.
King of alt.pro-wrestling.dx

mWo. It's not just the coolest, it's fa lyfe, so survey says
whether you like it or don't like it, never E-e-e-ver tell
me he did *not* just SMELL what mWo 3:16 reeks of.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240200 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 01:00
Father Haskell  
Frunobulax wrote:
> Can somebody, anybody, please point out an album or track or two that
> would "enlighten" me.

"Emporer of the Highway."
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240202 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 01:33
Milhouse Guidry of th[2]  
^^indifference^^ wrote:

> Play side 1 of 'A Wizard, A True Star' and get back to us.

IAWTP.


--
Milhouse Guidry of the mWo
With all the style and finesse of a purchase of armaments.
King of alt.pro-wrestling.dx

mWo. It's not just the coolest, it's fa lyfe, so survey says
whether you like it or don't like it, never E-e-e-ver tell
me he did *not* just SMELL what mWo 3:16 reeks of.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240203 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 02:33
2nz  
Frunobulax wrote:
> > I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren
>
> I've never managed to develop any for him.
>
> Can somebody, anybody, please point out an album or track or two that
> would "enlighten" me.
>
> All I've ever heard from this guy (admittedly little) has sounded like
> just so much, bad, white-bread, pedestrian pap . . .

Todd's a pretty sharp guy.
Take this line...from the song "Jesse" (Helms)...
....A crying woman has a message for the Pope:

"I wanna hold you down and fuck you while you squirm
Then force you to bring that thing to term"

.........Now, ya ain't gonna hear too many folks humming THAT at the
mall.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240204 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 02:41
2nz  
Frunobulax wrote:
> > I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren
>
> I've never managed to develop any for him.
>
> Can somebody, anybody, please point out an album or track or two that
> would "enlighten" me.
>
> All I've ever heard from this guy (admittedly little) has sounded like
> just so much, bad, white-bread, pedestrian pap . . .

Here's some TR autobio stuff with a tad of music:
http://www.tr-i.com/flash.html
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240205 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 04:07
Les Cargill  
Mike Espinoza wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:52:50 GMT, Les Cargill <lNOcargill [at] cfl.Arr.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Mike Espinoza wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The "New" Cars just performed "Good Times Roll" on The Tonight Show w/
>>>Jay Leno. Todd Rundgren, Elliot Easton, Greg Hawkes, and two flunkies
>>>that I don't feel like looking up.
>>>
>>>What is Todd thinking? Is he broke or something?
>>>
>>>I can understand Easton and Hawkes wanting to trade on their only
>>>claim to fame, but I have no clue what's going through Todd Rundgren's
>>>head.
>>>
>>>Todd Rundgren
>>>Solo Artist: Check
>>>formerly of The Nazz: Check
>>>founder of Utopia: Check
>>>
>>>currently touring with The Cars: HUH?!
>>>--
>>>Mike E.
>>
>>Steve Morse was/is playing lead for Deep Purple. I would
>>imagine it pays well.
>>
>
>
> Is. And you make a good point.
>
> I was initially appalled by the idea of Deep Purple with Morse, but
> considering the tension with Blackmore, it worked out better this way.
> Hell, I even like the Bananas album. Jon Lord left the band, as well
> (on good terms, reportedly),

He is not a young man.

> but he was replaced by Don Airey, which
> is kind of a no-brainer. Personally, I won't see them live because I
> saw them with the classic lineup in 1985 and from what I saw of the
> Live 8 coverage on TV, I wouldn't really care for their current live
> show. I'm more satisfied with my memories.
>

I am coming out of that, myself. Having a kid who brings in good
stuff from young people helps immensely. My Morning Jacket,
What Made Milwaukee Famous, the Shins are all fine acts,
great music, excellent lyrics, good performances. Neil Young
has a new concert DVD coming out.

If you can get Austin City Limits, it helps. Even Coldplay
was good, on there. I understood them a lot better after
that.

The CD like to killed music dead, all the reissues of
back catalog. But that was twenty years ago.

> I must admit that I don't know Rundgren's situation or what kind of
> relationship Easton and Hawkes have with Ric Ocasek. I'm sure
> Easton's involvement with Creedence Clearwater Revisted cemented in
> his mind that a band doesn't need its singer/songwriter/visionary in
> order to reform, even if that individual is still alive and
> particularly if they don't get along with him.
>

Right. It is essentially a franchise, and people will still pay
to see it. This used to bother me; it bothers me
less every year.

> Benjamin Orr is dead and I thought that I read somewhere a few years
> ago that David Robinson left the music business entirely, so they were
> going to have to hire a couple of flunkies anyway. I'm just rather
> shocked at Rundgren replacing Ocasek.
>
> Maybe I'm making too big a deal out of it.

Y'know, Ocaseck and Rundgren are a lot alike. Good on 'im for
being out there doing the thing.

Also also - I saw Procol Harum on ( I think ) Ovation recently -
fine show, sounded great, looked like mostly original members.

> --
> Mike E.
--
Les Cargill
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240207 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 04:08
Les Cargill  
Mike Espinoza wrote:

> On 15 Mar 2006 00:48:22 -0800, "Ukeboy" <U.Betcherass [at] gmail.com>
<snip>
>
> Well, I have a little more respect for the endeavor if no one is
> taking it too seriously.

I just had to see this sentence again. Well said.

> --
> Mike E.

--
Les Cargill
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240208 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 04:47
pbuzby2002  
Les Cargill wrote:
> Also also - I saw Procol Harum on ( I think ) Ovation recently -
> fine show, sounded great, looked like mostly original members.

Hmm, Brooker of course would still be there, last time I checked
Matthew Fisher decided to quit (again) and Robin Trower declined to be
involved, B.J. Wilson is dead...

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240211 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 10:01
niknikniknik  
"Milhouse Authentico" <milhouse_on_a_stick [at] derekmarvelli.org> wrote in
message news:47ueakFhj96sU1 [at] individual.net...
> ^^indifference^^ wrote:
>
>> Play side 1 of 'A Wizard, A True Star' and get back to us.
>
> IAWTP.

Translate please.



>
>
> --
> Milhouse Guidry of the mWo
> With all the style and finesse of a purchase of armaments.
> King of alt.pro-wrestling.dx
>
> mWo. It's not just the coolest, it's fa lyfe, so survey says
> whether you like it or don't like it, never E-e-e-ver tell
> me he did *not* just SMELL what mWo 3:16 reeks of.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240215 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 19:30
Charles Ulrich  
In article <1142567245.485126.252510 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
pbuzby2002 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> Les Cargill wrote:
> > Also also - I saw Procol Harum on ( I think ) Ovation recently -
> > fine show, sounded great, looked like mostly original members.
>
> Hmm, Brooker of course would still be there, last time I checked
> Matthew Fisher decided to quit (again) and Robin Trower declined to be
> involved, B.J. Wilson is dead...

It was Brooker and a bunch of ringers on the 2005 tour.
<http://www.procolharum.com/005/2005_index.htm>

But apparently the Paramounts gave a single concert in December 2005,
with the complete original line-up (featuring the drummer before B.J.
Wilson). <http://www.procolharum.com/Procolnews.htm>

So if Trower and Copping were willing to do a one-shot Paramounts
concert, they might well do a one-shot television appearance.

(And, personally, I would count Copping as an "original member" of
Procol Harum rather than a ringer.)

--Charles
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240218 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 22:06
Milhouse Guidry of th[2]  
^^indifference^^ wrote:
> "Milhouse Authentico" <milhouse_on_a_stick [at] derekmarvelli.org> wrote in
> message news:47ueakFhj96sU1 [at] individual.net...
>
>>^^indifference^^ wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Play side 1 of 'A Wizard, A True Star' and get back to us.
>>
>>IAWTP.
>
>
> Translate please.

"I agree with this post."

--
Milhouse Guidry of the mWo
With all the style and finesse of a purchase of armaments.
King of alt.pro-wrestling.dx

mWo. It's not just the coolest, it's fa lyfe, so survey says
whether you like it or don't like it, never E-e-e-ver tell
me he did *not* just SMELL what mWo 3:16 reeks of.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240222 ] Sa, 18 März 2006 03:33
Strictly Commercial  
Father Haskell wrote:
> "Emporer of the Highway."

Emperor of Ohio, eh?

R
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240226 ] Sa, 18 März 2006 17:51
YesterdaysWafflez  
Group: alt.fan.frank-zappa Date: Thu, Mar 16, 2006, 6:01pm (PST+3) From:
milhouse_on_a_stick [at] derekmarvelli.org (Milhouse=A0Authentico) Wrote:

I'm not a huge Rundgren fan, but I think a good answer to your question
would be the first side of "A Wizard / A True Star".
--


I agree, and 'Initiation' listen to the side length 'A Treatise on
Cosmic Fire'. Or all of 'Todd'. His early analog synth/sequencing
shows he & Roger Powell were Wizards & True Stars.

Thanks,
Y.W.
Re: OT: I have lost respect for Todd Rundgren [message #240233 ] Mo, 20 März 2006 05:17
2nz  
Yesterdays Wafflez wrote:
> Group: alt.fan.frank-zappa Date: Thu, Mar 16, 2006, 6:01pm (PST+3) From:
> milhouse_on_a_stick [at] derekmarvelli.org (Milhouse Authentico) Wrote:
>
> I'm not a huge Rundgren fan, but I think a good answer to your question
> would be the first side of "A Wizard / A True Star".
> --
>
>
> I agree, and 'Initiation' listen to the side length 'A Treatise on
> Cosmic Fire'. Or all of 'Todd'. His early analog synth/sequencing
> shows he & Roger Powell were Wizards & True Stars.

I just heard the first song Todd wrote for The New Cars, called (I
Want) More.
It has a basic Cars-ish rhythmic underpinning, but Todd slams it into
warp drive and the result sounds like Utopia or Dukes Of The
Stratosphere....lots of swirly keys and effects.
I'm beginning to get the feeling that one of the reasons Todd took this
gig was to expose his talents to a wider audience. He'll make stuff fit
within the Cars framework, but there's still plenty of TR in it.
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