Dumbledore A Danger to the School

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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Dumbledore A Danger to the School

Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #239907]

Di, 28 März 2006 21:48

ergrtgth

Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he allowed
him to stay in the school even though he tried to kill D, which would be all
well and good if those attempts didn't almost kill not one but TWO other
students. At what point would Dumbledore had finally stood up and done
something? After someone else actually died?

Or another student or two or three more (after the first two attempts) ended
up at St. Mungos? I can understand D wanting to help Draco and maybe even
Snape get around the Vow, but to allow Draco to continue his attempts, after
he KNEW that two students almost DIED in those attemps, is inexcsuable and D
should have been fired or removed from Hogwarts for total incompetence at
that point.

What's worse was D didn't really seem to care because he didn't think Draco
would actually go through with killing him. D was so focused on saving
Draco's "soul" that he completely ignored the danger Draco presented -
whether inadvertly or not, to the rest of the student body.

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #239909 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 22:26

dchilders

ergrtgth wrote:
> Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he allowed
> him to stay in the school even though he tried to kill D, which would be all
> well and good if those attempts didn't almost kill not one but TWO other
> students. At what point would Dumbledore had finally stood up and done
> something? After someone else actually died?
>

Probably. See below.

> Or another student or two or three more (after the first two attempts) ended
> up at St. Mungos? I can understand D wanting to help Draco and maybe even
> Snape get around the Vow, but to allow Draco to continue his attempts, after
> he KNEW that two students almost DIED in those attemps, is inexcsuable and D
> should have been fired or removed from Hogwarts for total incompetence at
> that point.
>

Many fans have noticed that the Wizarding World is rather cavalier
about
injuries. Take a look at how very dangerous Quidditch is, for example.
But
this is probably because the Wizarding World can fix just about any
non-lethal injuries quickly and easily--when Gilderoy Lockhart
destroyed
all the bones in Harry's arm, he was in the hospital for a couple days
and was
fine. In the Muggle world, he would have been permanently crippled by
an injury like that.

Then add in the lack of reaction to Hagrid's constant use of dangerous
creatures; the Triwizard Tournament (where death of the
contestants--who
are high schoolers--is a serious risk); some of the items Fred and
George
Weasley sell as harmless pranks (in real life, having your tongue grow
uncontrollably would run a severe risk of strangling you to death).

> What's worse was D didn't really seem to care because he didn't think Draco
> would actually go through with killing him. D was so focused on saving
> Draco's "soul" that he completely ignored the danger Draco presented -
> whether inadvertly or not, to the rest of the student body.
>

As I said above, the Wizarding World--not just Dumbledore--ignores a
lot of dangers to the Hogwarts student body. Probably because they
can fix the damage very easily.

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #239912 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 22:53

ergrtgth

yes, that's true, but still, if not for dumb luck Katie or Ron
would have died.

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #239919 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 23:36

Ken

ergrtgth wrote:
> Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he
> allowed him to stay in the school even though he tried to kill D,
> which would be all well and good if those attempts didn't almost kill
> not one but TWO other students. At what point would Dumbledore had
> finally stood up and done something? After someone else actually
> died?
> Or another student or two or three more (after the first two
> attempts) ended up at St. Mungos? I can understand D wanting to help
> Draco and maybe even Snape get around the Vow, but to allow Draco to
> continue his attempts, after he KNEW that two students almost DIED in
> those attemps, is inexcsuable and D should have been fired or removed
> from Hogwarts for total incompetence at that point.
>
> What's worse was D didn't really seem to care because he didn't think
> Draco would actually go through with killing him. D was so focused
> on saving Draco's "soul" that he completely ignored the danger Draco
> presented - whether inadvertly or not, to the rest of the student
> body.

I agree with dchilders [at] cablespeed.com about the wizarding world viewing
danger differently than most of the muggle world now days.

I'm mixed on DD irresponsibility.

1. while he knew Draco was up to evil, I don't know if he could prove it.
The MOM had a bad habit of locking people up without a trial.

2. *anytime* mercy is shown to an evil doer, it put the public at risk...
but do we want to live in a world without mercy?

3. "saving Draco's "soul"... might put the school at less risk later

4. The biggest danger to the kids was LV and for LV to win the battle. How
did DD action affect the battle?

Ken

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #239940 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 05:51

friesian

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 15:36:03 -0600, "Here in Minnesota"
<neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>4. The biggest danger to the kids was LV and for LV to win the battle. How
>did DD action affect the battle?
>

This was my thought as well. As bad as it sounds, every war has
casualties, and Dumbledore is playing to win.
--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #243653 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 11:27

Toon

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:48:46 GMT, "ergrtgth" <htrrrth [at] rth.com> wrote:

>Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he allowed
>him to stay in the school even though he tried to kill D, which would be all
>well and good if those attempts didn't almost kill not one but TWO other
>students. At what point would Dumbledore had finally stood up and done
>something? After someone else actually died?

I know he says there's no real harmed on. Debate on all you lie,
Katie Bell was clearly hurt, possibly even injured by it. Not like
she got a bad burn that went away in a week's time. She nearly died.
She had long lasting effects, as they couldn't cure it.

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #243654 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 11:28

Toon

On 28 Mar 2006 12:26:02 -0800, dchilders [at] cablespeed.com wrote:

>when Gilderoy Lockhart
>destroyed
>all the bones in Harry's arm, he was in the hospital for a couple days
>and was
>fine. In the Muggle world, he would have been permanently crippled by
>an injury like that.

Scientists are working on a way to re grow bones. I guess some
wizards like the Muggle World, then.

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #243655 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 11:31

Toon

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 15:36:03 -0600, "Here in Minnesota"
<neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

>ergrtgth wrote:
>> Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he
>> allowed him to stay in the school even though he tried to kill D,
>> which would be all well and good if those attempts didn't almost kill
>> not one but TWO other students. At what point would Dumbledore had
>> finally stood up and done something? After someone else actually
>> died?
>> Or another student or two or three more (after the first two
>> attempts) ended up at St. Mungos? I can understand D wanting to help
>> Draco and maybe even Snape get around the Vow, but to allow Draco to
>> continue his attempts, after he KNEW that two students almost DIED in
>> those attemps, is inexcsuable and D should have been fired or removed
>> from Hogwarts for total incompetence at that point.
>>
>> What's worse was D didn't really seem to care because he didn't think
>> Draco would actually go through with killing him. D was so focused
>> on saving Draco's "soul" that he completely ignored the danger Draco
>> presented - whether inadvertly or not, to the rest of the student
>> body.
>
>I agree with dchilders [at] cablespeed.com about the wizarding world viewing
>danger differently than most of the muggle world now days.
>
>I'm mixed on DD irresponsibility.
>
>1. while he knew Draco was up to evil, I don't know if he could prove it.
>The MOM had a bad habit of locking people up without a trial.
>
>2. *anytime* mercy is shown to an evil doer, it put the public at risk...
>but do we want to live in a world without mercy?
>
>3. "saving Draco's "soul"... might put the school at less risk later
>
>4. The biggest danger to the kids was LV and for LV to win the battle. How
>did DD action affect the battle?
>
>Ken
>

Well, he IS dead. Whether planned or not, is the question. If not,
he really blew things badly.

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #243677 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 16:33

Philip Lewis

Toon <toon [at] toon.com> writes:
>Scientists are working on a way to re grow bones.
>I guess some wizards like the Muggle World, then.

Sounds like Clark's third law[*]. ;)

--
May no harm befall you,
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

[*] http://www.google.com/search?q=technology+magic+indistinguis hable

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #243692 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 18:25

ergrtgth

"Toon" <toon [at] toon.com> wrote in message
news:hikk22lhof75ucrsj3motumbm6oo45nvu8 [at] 4ax.com...
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:48:46 GMT, "ergrtgth" <htrrrth [at] rth.com> wrote:
>
>>Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he
>>allowed
>>him to stay in the school even though he tried to kill D, which would be
>>all
>>well and good if those attempts didn't almost kill not one but TWO other
>>students. At what point would Dumbledore had finally stood up and done
>>something? After someone else actually died?
>
> I know he says there's no real harmed on. Debate on all you lie,
> Katie Bell was clearly hurt, possibly even injured by it. Not like
> she got a bad burn that went away in a week's time. She nearly died.
> She had long lasting effects, as they couldn't cure it.
>

It was so bad that even with Wizard Medicine she was still out for several
months.

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #243803 ]

Fr, 31 März 2006 19:40

Frodo Baggins

I am afraid, I have to disagree with this argument below, though it is
well reasoned. The way I see it, there were atleast three things that
supported Dumbledore's action.

1. Dumbledore had no proof that it was indeed Draco Malfoy who was
behind the incidents at school. He had taken, what he thought was,
sufficient precaution to make sure that school and its students were
protected. Further, DD was sure that Draco's target was himself rather
than the school or others there. The conversation at the end on top of
the tower reveals this.

2. It was better Draco Malfoy stayed at school where DD could keep an
eye on him and his activities (which he was sure he could neutralise)
rather than have him let loose outside the school where DD will not be
able to do anything. Draco could easily influence his sidekicks from
outside the school and this would be more difficult to control.

3. Expelling Draco would be the final step in making sure that he
became a Death Eater. He deserved that last chance to realise his
folly. It is entirely consistant with DDs character so far, there were
many occasions when DD had stepped back to let events run their course,
a classic example being in OotP where he made himself an outlaw.

Frodo.

ergrtgth wrote:
> Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he allowed
> him to stay in the school even though he tried to kill D, which would be all
> well and good if those attempts didn't almost kill not one but TWO other
> students. At what point would Dumbledore had finally stood up and done
> something? After someone else actually died?
>
> Or another student or two or three more (after the first two attempts) ended
> up at St. Mungos? I can understand D wanting to help Draco and maybe even
> Snape get around the Vow, but to allow Draco to continue his attempts, after
> he KNEW that two students almost DIED in those attemps, is inexcsuable and D
> should have been fired or removed from Hogwarts for total incompetence at
> that point.
>
> What's worse was D didn't really seem to care because he didn't think Draco
> would actually go through with killing him. D was so focused on saving
> Draco's "soul" that he completely ignored the danger Draco presented -
> whether inadvertly or not, to the rest of the student body.

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #243857 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 11:03

Toon

On 31 Mar 2006 09:40:11 -0800, "Frodo Baggins" <doufrodo [at] yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>3. Expelling Draco would be the final step in making sure that he
>became a Death Eater. He deserved that last chance to realise his
>folly. It is entirely consistant with DDs character so far, there were
>many occasions when DD had stepped back to let events run their course,
>a classic example being in OotP where he made himself an outlaw.

I think he used it as an excuse to go Horcrux Hunting. He did seem
rather glad to be rid of the Headmaster responsibilities.

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #253345 ]

Mi, 26 April 2006 22:29

Jan van Aalderen

Here in Minnesota wrote:
> ergrtgth wrote:
>> Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he
>> allowed him to stay in the school even though he tried to kill D,
>> which would be all well and good if those attempts didn't almost kill
>> not one but TWO other students. At what point would Dumbledore had
>> finally stood up and done something? After someone else actually
>> died?
>> Or another student or two or three more (after the first two
>> attempts) ended up at St. Mungos? I can understand D wanting to help
>> Draco and maybe even Snape get around the Vow, but to allow Draco to
>> continue his attempts, after he KNEW that two students almost DIED in
>> those attemps, is inexcsuable and D should have been fired or removed
>> from Hogwarts for total incompetence at that point.
>>
>> What's worse was D didn't really seem to care because he didn't think
>> Draco would actually go through with killing him. D was so focused
>> on saving Draco's "soul" that he completely ignored the danger Draco
>> presented - whether inadvertly or not, to the rest of the student
>> body.
>
> I agree with dchilders [at] cablespeed.com about the wizarding world viewing
> danger differently than most of the muggle world now days.
>
> I'm mixed on DD irresponsibility.
>
> 1. while he knew Draco was up to evil, I don't know if he could prove it.

That being so, DD should still have conducted a proper investigation.
Instead, he casually drops te point with Snape, who will never conduct
any form of investigation against any of his own House, let alone his
pet-student DM. acts of which DD is fully aware.

> The MOM had a bad habit of locking people up without a trial.

As JKR is a UK-citizen, she is likely accustomed to UK-law. In the UK,
like in the US, citizens can be imprisoned without trial when suspected
of certain crimes, due to politicians tendency to howl with the mob on
media-tunes. Very few - if any - countries have laws that ALWAYS
guarantee every suspect some form of trial before imprisonment.

> 2. *anytime* mercy is shown to an evil doer, it put the public at risk...
> but do we want to live in a world without mercy?

Mercy is mostly a matter between individuals, in which judicial
authorities should be reluctant to interfere. Many people who catch
someone stealing food from their kitchen will show mercy and not even
call the police. Once a matter is in the hands of the judicial system
however, it has the responsibility to determine whether showing mercy
implies a risk for the community. Hence, judges have no right to be
lenient towards people who commit serial crimes against others. Showing
mercy may make them responsible for future crimes.

> 3. "saving Draco's "soul"... might put the school at less risk later

Indeed. DD has that typical dogooder attitude: as long as he is viewed
as the good guy, being noble to wrongdoers, damn' what the bad guys who
walk free because of it do next to others.

>
> 4. The biggest danger to the kids was LV and for LV to win the battle. How
> did DD action affect the battle?

In HBP their was no battle, just an intrusion. DD's attitude towards DM
- which caused DM to execute his plans unhindered - was a greater threat
to students safety than LV, assuming HW was indeed a safe place against
outside attacks.

Anyway, the whole plot of HBP is rather unlikely: LV is presented with a
unique opportunity, namely gaining uncontrolled access to HW. Which he
than uses just to get DD killed, which costs him two spies inside the
castle. Unlikely.

--
Vriendelijke groet,
Jan van Aalderen, Amstelveen
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*
Wie mijn raad volgt, doet zulks geheel op eigen risico!
Reactie op usenetpostjes in de groep. Email zie ik niet.
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #253387 ]

Do, 27 April 2006 09:47

Toon

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:29:26 +0200, Jan van Aalderen
<reply-in-group-please [at] jva.getxs.nl> wrote:

>Here in Minnesota wrote:
>> ergrtgth wrote:
>>> Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he
>>> allowed him to stay in the school even though he tried to kill D,
>>> which would be all well and good if those attempts didn't almost kill
>>> not one but TWO other students. At what point would Dumbledore had
>>> finally stood up and done something? After someone else actually
>>> died?
>>> Or another student or two or three more (after the first two
>>> attempts) ended up at St. Mungos? I can understand D wanting to help
>>> Draco and maybe even Snape get around the Vow, but to allow Draco to
>>> continue his attempts, after he KNEW that two students almost DIED in
>>> those attemps, is inexcsuable and D should have been fired or removed
>>> from Hogwarts for total incompetence at that point.
>>>
>>> What's worse was D didn't really seem to care because he didn't think
>>> Draco would actually go through with killing him. D was so focused
>>> on saving Draco's "soul" that he completely ignored the danger Draco
>>> presented - whether inadvertly or not, to the rest of the student
>>> body.
>>
>> I agree with dchilders [at] cablespeed.com about the wizarding world viewing
>> danger differently than most of the muggle world now days.
>>
>> I'm mixed on DD irresponsibility.
>>
>> 1. while he knew Draco was up to evil, I don't know if he could prove it.
>
>That being so, DD should still have conducted a proper investigation.
>Instead, he casually drops te point with Snape, who will never conduct
>any form of investigation against any of his own House, let alone his
>pet-student DM. acts of which DD is fully aware.
>
>> The MOM had a bad habit of locking people up without a trial.
>
>As JKR is a UK-citizen, she is likely accustomed to UK-law. In the UK,
>like in the US, citizens can be imprisoned without trial when suspected
>of certain crimes, due to politicians tendency to howl with the mob on
>media-tunes. Very few - if any - countries have laws that ALWAYS
>guarantee every suspect some form of trial before imprisonment.
>
>> 2. *anytime* mercy is shown to an evil doer, it put the public at risk...
>> but do we want to live in a world without mercy?
>
>Mercy is mostly a matter between individuals, in which judicial
>authorities should be reluctant to interfere. Many people who catch
>someone stealing food from their kitchen will show mercy and not even
>call the police. Once a matter is in the hands of the judicial system
>however, it has the responsibility to determine whether showing mercy
>implies a risk for the community. Hence, judges have no right to be
>lenient towards people who commit serial crimes against others. Showing
>mercy may make them responsible for future crimes.
>
>
>> 3. "saving Draco's "soul"... might put the school at less risk later
>
>Indeed. DD has that typical dogooder attitude: as long as he is viewed
>as the good guy, being noble to wrongdoers, damn' what the bad guys who
>walk free because of it do next to others.
>
>>
>> 4. The biggest danger to the kids was LV and for LV to win the battle. How
>> did DD action affect the battle?
>
>In HBP their was no battle, just an intrusion. DD's attitude towards DM
>- which caused DM to execute his plans unhindered - was a greater threat
>to students safety than LV, assuming HW was indeed a safe place against
>outside attacks.
>
>Anyway, the whole plot of HBP is rather unlikely: LV is presented with a
>unique opportunity, namely gaining uncontrolled access to HW. Which he
>than uses just to get DD killed, which costs him two spies inside the
>castle. Unlikely.

You'd think he'd cabinet in, and kill Harry. Bada Bing Bada Bang Bada
Boom. The kid's asleep and never saw it coming.

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #253439 ]

Do, 27 April 2006 17:54

wadkin2000

Jan van Aalderen wrote:

> > The MOM had a bad habit of locking people up without a trial.
>
> As JKR is a UK-citizen, she is likely accustomed to UK-law. In the UK,
> like in the US, citizens can be imprisoned without trial when suspected
> of certain crimes, due to politicians tendency to howl with the mob on
> media-tunes. Very few - if any - countries have laws that ALWAYS
> guarantee every suspect some form of trial before imprisonment.

In the US probable cause is necssary to arrest someone and take that
person into custody. If there's enough evidence, the case goes to a
grand jury or preliminary hearing. If they find that there's enough
evidence, the suspect is arraigned and a trial date set. According to
law (with certain exceptions) the person can only be held 72 hrs. prior
to arraignment. During the arraignment proceedings, the judge can
determine if bail is granted to the suspect. If so, then the person is
not in jail until the jury reaches its verdict (if it determines a
guilty verdict).

> Mercy is mostly a matter between individuals, in which judicial
> authorities should be reluctant to interfere. Many people who catch
> someone stealing food from their kitchen will show mercy and not even
> call the police. Once a matter is in the hands of the judicial system
> however, it has the responsibility to determine whether showing mercy
> implies a risk for the community.

Shades of Les Miserables?

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #253445 ]

Do, 27 April 2006 19:00

Helena Bowles

<wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1146153254.574980.172130 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Jan van Aalderen wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> > The MOM had a bad habit of locking people up without a trial.
>>
>> As JKR is a UK-citizen, she is likely accustomed to UK-law. In the UK,
>> like in the US, citizens can be imprisoned without trial when suspected
>> of certain crimes, due to politicians tendency to howl with the mob on
>> media-tunes. Very few - if any - countries have laws that ALWAYS
>> guarantee every suspect some form of trial before imprisonment.
>
> In the US probable cause is necssary to arrest someone and take that
> person into custody. If there's enough evidence, the case goes to a
> grand jury or preliminary hearing. If they find that there's enough
> evidence, the suspect is arraigned and a trial date set. According to
> law (with certain exceptions) the person can only be held 72 hrs. prior
> to arraignment. During the arraignment proceedings, the judge can
> determine if bail is granted to the suspect. If so, then the person is
> not in jail until the jury reaches its verdict (if it determines a
> guilty verdict).

Unless the subject is held under one of the anti-terrorism laws currently in
force in both countries, or is a foreign national. We have guys who have
been banged up in Belmarsh Prison without trial for some considerable time.
In the US there are similar cases but I don't have the details to hand. I
think that this is what JKR is referencing with the Stan Shunpike case.

Of course if denied bail an individual may spend many months in prison
awaiting a court date.

And we occasionally shoot people, too...
Helena
>

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #253447 ]

Do, 27 April 2006 19:17

wadkin2000

Helena Bowles wrote:
> <wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1146153254.574980.172130 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > Jan van Aalderen wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> > The MOM had a bad habit of locking people up without a trial.
> >>
> >> As JKR is a UK-citizen, she is likely accustomed to UK-law. In the UK,
> >> like in the US, citizens can be imprisoned without trial when suspected
> >> of certain crimes, due to politicians tendency to howl with the mob on
> >> media-tunes. Very few - if any - countries have laws that ALWAYS
> >> guarantee every suspect some form of trial before imprisonment.
> >
> > In the US probable cause is necssary to arrest someone and take that
> > person into custody. If there's enough evidence, the case goes to a
> > grand jury or preliminary hearing. If they find that there's enough
> > evidence, the suspect is arraigned and a trial date set. According to
> > law (with certain exceptions) the person can only be held 72 hrs. prior
> > to arraignment. During the arraignment proceedings, the judge can
> > determine if bail is granted to the suspect. If so, then the person is
> > not in jail until the jury reaches its verdict (if it determines a
> > guilty verdict).
>
> Unless the subject is held under one of the anti-terrorism laws currently in
> force in both countries, or is a foreign national. We have guys who have
> been banged up in Belmarsh Prison without trial for some considerable time.
> In the US there are similar cases but I don't have the details to hand. I
> think that this is what JKR is referencing with the Stan Shunpike case.
>
> Of course if denied bail an individual may spend many months in prison
> awaiting a court date.
>
> And we occasionally shoot people, too...
> Helena
> >

Yes, I know, but I purposefully omitted the Patriot Act repercussions
since I thought Jan was referring to "everyday" criminal justice. :-)

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #253448 ]

Do, 27 April 2006 19:48

wadkin2000

Here in Minnesota wrote:
> ergrtgth wrote:
> > Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he
> > allowed him to stay in the school even though he tried to kill D,
> > which would be all well and good if those attempts didn't almost kill
> > not one but TWO other students. At what point would Dumbledore had
> > finally stood up and done something? After someone else actually
> > died?
> > Or another student or two or three more (after the first two
> > attempts) ended up at St. Mungos? I can understand D wanting to help
> > Draco and maybe even Snape get around the Vow, but to allow Draco to
> > continue his attempts, after he KNEW that two students almost DIED in
> > those attemps, is inexcsuable and D should have been fired or removed
> > from Hogwarts for total incompetence at that point.
> >
> > What's worse was D didn't really seem to care because he didn't think
> > Draco would actually go through with killing him. D was so focused
> > on saving Draco's "soul" that he completely ignored the danger Draco
> > presented - whether inadvertly or not, to the rest of the student
> > body.
>
> I agree with dchilders [at] cablespeed.com about the wizarding world viewing
> danger differently than most of the muggle world now days.
>
> I'm mixed on DD irresponsibility.
>
> 1. while he knew Draco was up to evil, I don't know if he could prove it.
> The MOM had a bad habit of locking people up without a trial.
>
> 2. *anytime* mercy is shown to an evil doer, it put the public at risk...
> but do we want to live in a world without mercy?
>
> 3. "saving Draco's "soul"... might put the school at less risk later
>
> 4. The biggest danger to the kids was LV and for LV to win the battle. How
> did DD action affect the battle?
>
> Ken

IMO, I think part of DD's problem is that he never wants to take a
pre-emptive action to prevent a situation from occurring, never acting
on his suspicions. He always takes a current action, sometimes too late
and with consequences. He seems to only do something after the fact,
hoping instead (IMO) that everything will right itself of its own
accord.

I think his biggest regret would be ignoring and not acting upon the
warning signs he saw in Tom Riddle, completely miscalculating the
situation and aware that at least, partially, he could be responsible
for the whole "reign of Lord Voldemort".

When you take into consideration that in addition to being Headmaster
of Hogwarts, he is and was for many years Supreme Mugwump of the Int'l.
Confederacy of Wizards and Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot (not
including the 1995-96 yr), many of the problems facing the wizarding
world occurred on his watch. It is, after all, the captain that sets
the tone of the ship's direction, not the officers.

Perhaps I am being too harsh, thrusting a disproportionate arm of blame
on him, but considering his lapses in judgment throughout the books and
repercussions that resulted from them, I don't feel that the "only
seeing the good in people" theory holds up that well anymore.
Unfortunately, I think DD was a victim of his own modest hubris. (Yes I
know that's an oxymoron-it was meant to be).

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #253451 ]

Do, 27 April 2006 22:02

Helena Bowles

<wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1146158253.759316.14310 [at] i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Helena Bowles wrote:
>> <wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1146153254.574980.172130 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> >
>> > Jan van Aalderen wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> > The MOM had a bad habit of locking people up without a trial.
>> >>
>> >> As JKR is a UK-citizen, she is likely accustomed to UK-law. In the UK,
>> >> like in the US, citizens can be imprisoned without trial when
>> >> suspected
>> >> of certain crimes, due to politicians tendency to howl with the mob on
>> >> media-tunes. Very few - if any - countries have laws that ALWAYS
>> >> guarantee every suspect some form of trial before imprisonment.
>> >
>> > In the US probable cause is necssary to arrest someone and take that
>> > person into custody. If there's enough evidence, the case goes to a
>> > grand jury or preliminary hearing. If they find that there's enough
>> > evidence, the suspect is arraigned and a trial date set. According to
>> > law (with certain exceptions) the person can only be held 72 hrs. prior
>> > to arraignment. During the arraignment proceedings, the judge can
>> > determine if bail is granted to the suspect. If so, then the person is
>> > not in jail until the jury reaches its verdict (if it determines a
>> > guilty verdict).
>>
>> Unless the subject is held under one of the anti-terrorism laws currently
>> in
>> force in both countries, or is a foreign national. We have guys who have
>> been banged up in Belmarsh Prison without trial for some considerable
>> time.
>> In the US there are similar cases but I don't have the details to hand. I
>> think that this is what JKR is referencing with the Stan Shunpike case.
>>
>> Of course if denied bail an individual may spend many months in prison
>> awaiting a court date.
>>
>> And we occasionally shoot people, too...
>> Helena
>> >
>
> Yes, I know, but I purposefully omitted the Patriot Act repercussions
> since I thought Jan was referring to "everyday" criminal justice. :-)

Right, I didn't see the original post but I do think that the instances
of justie we are shown in the HP books are about when justice and legality
don't match up. I do think Stan is a reference to political prisoners
generally and the vagaries of the UK/US anti-terrorism responses (I don't
know enough about other countries to comment). Sirius Black and Barty Crouch
seem to explicitly reference McCarthyism and possibly Soviet "denunciations"
of the same era.
Helena
>

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #253452 ]

Do, 27 April 2006 22:04

Helena Bowles

Re: Dumbledore A Danger to the School [message #253503 ]

Fr, 28 April 2006 12:21

Helena Bowles

"Helena Bowles" <helena.bowles [at] tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:445123b3_3 [at] mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>
>> Yes, I know, but I purposefully omitted the Patriot Act repercussions
>> since I thought Jan was referring to "everyday" criminal justice. :-)
>
> Right, I didn't see the original post but I do think that the
> instances
> of justie we are shown in the HP books are about when justice and legality
> don't match up. I do think Stan is a reference to political prisoners
> generally and the vagaries of the UK/US anti-terrorism responses (I don't
> know enough about other countries to comment). Sirius Black and Barty
> Crouch
> seem to explicitly reference McCarthyism and possibly Soviet
> "denunciations"
> of the same era.
> Helena

Apologies for the double posting... new laptop, wireless LAN network, doing
something strange when I try to post...
Helena
>>
>
>
>

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