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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » JK & research

JK & research [message #239837]

Di, 28 März 2006 03:39

wadkin2000

I was looking thru OOTP and re-reading the part where DD seems to be
confirming Harry's story about Arthur Weasley with a silver instrument
on his desk. I started to look around and found some amazing
allegories, metaphors and parallels with alchemy. Jo is obviously
familiar with it (hence, "Philosopher's Stone" and Nicholas Flamel).
However, I'm now wondering just how much she really knows about it.
All of the following also relates in a way to the possible endings of
book 7 that have been discussed.

First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
coincidental(?) they are:
1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
this quintessence of dust?"
4. In Greek mythology, the Phoenix is the symbol for unification.

OOTP, p.470: "...the tiny puffs became a steady stream of smoke that
thickened and coiled in the air...A serpent's head grew out of the end
of it, opening its mouth wide. 'Naturally, naturally,' murmured DD.
'But in essence divided?' The smoke serpent, however, split itself
instantly into two snakes, both coiling and undulating in the dark air.
DD gave the instrument another gentle tap with his wand...and the
smoke serpents vanished."

Alchemy is a chemical unity of imbalances. Opposites have to be
reconciled and die before they can be reborn. It is balancing and
resolving opposites, and can be either belief-driven or a
scientific-based system. Alchemy plays out on three levels at once:
physical, psychological, and spiritual. By developing the ability to
work on all three levels at once, the alchemist creates a spiritual
technology that manifests itself not only in the laboratory but in
themselves as well. The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?) and the minerals
are sulfur, mercury, and salt. The three minerals, when combined with
the elements, are the principle tools to effect the change of one
substance to another. Alchemy purifies a base metal ultimately
transfiguring it into pure gold, (felix felicis?) as well as the
purification of body & soul of the alchemist. Quintessence is the final
purest essence that remains by combining the above elements and
minerals. Quintessence becomes, in effect, the fifth element, the
purest essence, which is necessary for the alchemist to complete the
process of soul development. It's when the alchemical process is
performed on this fifth element, that the alchemist "...has integrated
his being so much that he is no longer dependent upon his physical body
as a foundation for his being. He now stands upon the sureness of the
spiritual. He has, in this sense, attained the Philosopher's Stone,
the spiritual core of his being. The phoenix completes this process of
soul development." (Adam McLean '79). As DD said, "Death is the next
great adventure."

IMO, when DD says "in essence divided?" it means that for now the
opposites (Harry & LV) are divided, but they will have to be united in
order for Harry to achieve rebirth or resurrection. It symbolizes the
fact that there's a shared nature between LV & Harry, hence the first
single serpent head, but then "in essence divided" means one nature
with two essences. This also throws in the "Christian parallel" aspect
of another thread. At the Council of Chalcedon, The Church said the
person of Christ as being one in essence with his Father, but also
being God and man himself: one divided essence, two perfect natures
(Harry & LV?)

The symbol of two snakes joined together in alchemy is the uniting
symbol, the joining of opposites. In the book "Alchemy & Psychology",
there's a drawing of two men fighting, one with a snake and one with a
bird. In the middle is Hermes, messenger of the Gods, who is holding
two staffs. The staff that Hermes is holding is called a Caduceus and
it is entwined by two serpents. Their union is the coming together of
alchemical principles and the offspring (the purest essence) if it is
achieved, is the Stone. The stone is represented as a "golden ball with
wings" (what could that be?) at the top of the Caduceus.

There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
state in order for it to be reborn. The second stage is called
"albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is the purification stage, the
washing or purifying of the metal. The third stage is called the
"rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?). This stage is called the
"purification". During this chemical process, the body of the metal is
resurrected and the purified metal has been transfigured into pure
gold.

Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
surrounded by the three principle minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.

OK, that's my "Sermon on the Mount" for now. I don't think all of the
above are coincidences. However, if not, then I'm even more amazed at
her depth of research.

Re: JK & research [message #239854 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 11:24

Toon

On 27 Mar 2006 17:39:23 -0800, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>I was looking thru OOTP and re-reading the part where DD seems to be
>confirming Harry's story about Arthur Weasley with a silver instrument
>on his desk. I started to look around and found some amazing
>allegories, metaphors and parallels with alchemy. Jo is obviously
>familiar with it (hence, "Philosopher's Stone" and Nicholas Flamel).
>However, I'm now wondering just how much she really knows about it.
>All of the following also relates in a way to the possible endings of
>book 7 that have been discussed.
>
>First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
>coincidental(?) they are:
>1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
>2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
>3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
>"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
>this quintessence of dust?"
>4. In Greek mythology, the Phoenix is the symbol for unification.
>
>OOTP, p.470: "...the tiny puffs became a steady stream of smoke that
>thickened and coiled in the air...A serpent's head grew out of the end
>of it, opening its mouth wide. 'Naturally, naturally,' murmured DD.
>'But in essence divided?' The smoke serpent, however, split itself
>instantly into two snakes, both coiling and undulating in the dark air.
> DD gave the instrument another gentle tap with his wand...and the
>smoke serpents vanished."
>
>Alchemy is a chemical unity of imbalances. Opposites have to be
>reconciled and die before they can be reborn. It is balancing and
>resolving opposites, and can be either belief-driven or a
>scientific-based system. Alchemy plays out on three levels at once:
>physical, psychological, and spiritual. By developing the ability to
>work on all three levels at once, the alchemist creates a spiritual
>technology that manifests itself not only in the laboratory but in
>themselves as well. The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
>water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?) and the minerals
>are sulfur, mercury, and salt. The three minerals, when combined with
>the elements, are the principle tools to effect the change of one
>substance to another. Alchemy purifies a base metal ultimately
>transfiguring it into pure gold, (felix felicis?) as well as the
>purification of body & soul of the alchemist. Quintessence is the final
>purest essence that remains by combining the above elements and
>minerals. Quintessence becomes, in effect, the fifth element, the
>purest essence, which is necessary for the alchemist to complete the
>process of soul development. It's when the alchemical process is
>performed on this fifth element, that the alchemist "...has integrated
>his being so much that he is no longer dependent upon his physical body
>as a foundation for his being. He now stands upon the sureness of the
>spiritual. He has, in this sense, attained the Philosopher's Stone,
>the spiritual core of his being. The phoenix completes this process of
>soul development." (Adam McLean '79). As DD said, "Death is the next
>great adventure."
>
> IMO, when DD says "in essence divided?" it means that for now the
>opposites (Harry & LV) are divided, but they will have to be united in
>order for Harry to achieve rebirth or resurrection. It symbolizes the
>fact that there's a shared nature between LV & Harry, hence the first
>single serpent head, but then "in essence divided" means one nature
>with two essences. This also throws in the "Christian parallel" aspect
>of another thread. At the Council of Chalcedon, The Church said the
>person of Christ as being one in essence with his Father, but also
>being God and man himself: one divided essence, two perfect natures
>(Harry & LV?)
>
>The symbol of two snakes joined together in alchemy is the uniting
>symbol, the joining of opposites. In the book "Alchemy & Psychology",
>there's a drawing of two men fighting, one with a snake and one with a
>bird. In the middle is Hermes, messenger of the Gods, who is holding
>two staffs. The staff that Hermes is holding is called a Caduceus and
>it is entwined by two serpents. Their union is the coming together of
>alchemical principles and the offspring (the purest essence) if it is
>achieved, is the Stone. The stone is represented as a "golden ball with
>wings" (what could that be?) at the top of the Caduceus.
>
>There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
>alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
>when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
>state in order for it to be reborn. The second stage is called
>"albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is the purification stage, the
>washing or purifying of the metal. The third stage is called the
>"rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?). This stage is called the
>"purification". During this chemical process, the body of the metal is
>resurrected and the purified metal has been transfigured into pure
>gold.
>
>Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
>wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
>and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
>and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
>surrounded by the three principle minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
>
>OK, that's my "Sermon on the Mount" for now. I don't think all of the
>above are coincidences. However, if not, then I'm even more amazed at
>her depth of research.

Snakes entwining a staff represents the medical community. because
doctors are a bunch of asps.

Re: JK & research [message #239883 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 17:47

wadkin2000

Toon wrote:
> On 27 Mar 2006 17:39:23 -0800, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >I was looking thru OOTP and re-reading the part where DD seems to be
> >confirming Harry's story about Arthur Weasley with a silver instrument
> >on his desk. I started to look around and found some amazing
> >allegories, metaphors and parallels with alchemy. Jo is obviously
> >familiar with it (hence, "Philosopher's Stone" and Nicholas Flamel).
> >However, I'm now wondering just how much she really knows about it.
> >All of the following also relates in a way to the possible endings of
> >book 7 that have been discussed.
> >
> >First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
> >coincidental(?) they are:
> >1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
> >2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
> >3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
> >"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
> >this quintessence of dust?"
> >4. In Greek mythology, the Phoenix is the symbol for unification.
> >
> >OOTP, p.470: "...the tiny puffs became a steady stream of smoke that
> >thickened and coiled in the air...A serpent's head grew out of the end
> >of it, opening its mouth wide. 'Naturally, naturally,' murmured DD.
> >'But in essence divided?' The smoke serpent, however, split itself
> >instantly into two snakes, both coiling and undulating in the dark air.
> > DD gave the instrument another gentle tap with his wand...and the
> >smoke serpents vanished."
> >
> >Alchemy is a chemical unity of imbalances. Opposites have to be
> >reconciled and die before they can be reborn. It is balancing and
> >resolving opposites, and can be either belief-driven or a
> >scientific-based system. Alchemy plays out on three levels at once:
> >physical, psychological, and spiritual. By developing the ability to
> >work on all three levels at once, the alchemist creates a spiritual
> >technology that manifests itself not only in the laboratory but in
> >themselves as well. The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
> >water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?) and the minerals
> >are sulfur, mercury, and salt. The three minerals, when combined with
> >the elements, are the principle tools to effect the change of one
> >substance to another. Alchemy purifies a base metal ultimately
> >transfiguring it into pure gold, (felix felicis?) as well as the
> >purification of body & soul of the alchemist. Quintessence is the final
> >purest essence that remains by combining the above elements and
> >minerals. Quintessence becomes, in effect, the fifth element, the
> >purest essence, which is necessary for the alchemist to complete the
> >process of soul development. It's when the alchemical process is
> >performed on this fifth element, that the alchemist "...has integrated
> >his being so much that he is no longer dependent upon his physical body
> >as a foundation for his being. He now stands upon the sureness of the
> >spiritual. He has, in this sense, attained the Philosopher's Stone,
> >the spiritual core of his being. The phoenix completes this process of
> >soul development." (Adam McLean '79). As DD said, "Death is the next
> >great adventure."
> >
> > IMO, when DD says "in essence divided?" it means that for now the
> >opposites (Harry & LV) are divided, but they will have to be united in
> >order for Harry to achieve rebirth or resurrection. It symbolizes the
> >fact that there's a shared nature between LV & Harry, hence the first
> >single serpent head, but then "in essence divided" means one nature
> >with two essences. This also throws in the "Christian parallel" aspect
> >of another thread. At the Council of Chalcedon, The Church said the
> >person of Christ as being one in essence with his Father, but also
> >being God and man himself: one divided essence, two perfect natures
> >(Harry & LV?)
> >
> >The symbol of two snakes joined together in alchemy is the uniting
> >symbol, the joining of opposites. In the book "Alchemy & Psychology",
> >there's a drawing of two men fighting, one with a snake and one with a
> >bird. In the middle is Hermes, messenger of the Gods, who is holding
> >two staffs. The staff that Hermes is holding is called a Caduceus and
> >it is entwined by two serpents. Their union is the coming together of
> >alchemical principles and the offspring (the purest essence) if it is
> >achieved, is the Stone. The stone is represented as a "golden ball with
> >wings" (what could that be?) at the top of the Caduceus.
> >
> >There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
> >alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
> >when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
> >state in order for it to be reborn. The second stage is called
> >"albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is the purification stage, the
> >washing or purifying of the metal. The third stage is called the
> >"rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?). This stage is called the
> >"purification". During this chemical process, the body of the metal is
> >resurrected and the purified metal has been transfigured into pure
> >gold.
> >
> >Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
> >wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
> >and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
> >and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
> >of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
> >surrounded by the three principle minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
> >
> >OK, that's my "Sermon on the Mount" for now. I don't think all of the
> >above are coincidences. However, if not, then I'm even more amazed at
> >her depth of research.
>
> Snakes entwining a staff represents the medical community. because
> doctors are a bunch of asps.

LOL...that really is very good, Toon! However, even though the
Cadeucus of Hermes that I mentioned above is commonly used as a symbol
of medicine, it's incorrect. The one above symbolizes peace, a "coming
together". The Romans used it as a symbol of peace during wars. The
correct Cadeucus for medicine is called the Staff of Aesculapius, a
single staff that has a single snake wrapped around it.

Re: JK & research [message #239898 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 19:31

cwlNOSPAM

In article <1143509962.992334.150980 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>I was looking thru OOTP and re-reading the part where DD seems to be
>confirming Harry's story about Arthur Weasley with a silver instrument
>on his desk. I started to look around and found some amazing
>allegories, metaphors and parallels with alchemy. Jo is obviously
>familiar with it (hence, "Philosopher's Stone" and Nicholas Flamel).
>However, I'm now wondering just how much she really knows about it.
>All of the following also relates in a way to the possible endings of
>book 7 that have been discussed.
>
>First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
>coincidental(?) they are:
>1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
>2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
>3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
>"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
>this quintessence of dust?"
>4. In Greek mythology, the Phoenix is the symbol for unification.
>
>OOTP, p.470: "...the tiny puffs became a steady stream of smoke that
>thickened and coiled in the air...A serpent's head grew out of the end
>of it, opening its mouth wide. 'Naturally, naturally,' murmured DD.
>'But in essence divided?' The smoke serpent, however, split itself
>instantly into two snakes, both coiling and undulating in the dark air.
> DD gave the instrument another gentle tap with his wand...and the
>smoke serpents vanished."
>
>Alchemy is a chemical unity of imbalances. Opposites have to be
>reconciled and die before they can be reborn. It is balancing and
>resolving opposites, and can be either belief-driven or a
>scientific-based system. Alchemy plays out on three levels at once:
>physical, psychological, and spiritual. By developing the ability to
>work on all three levels at once, the alchemist creates a spiritual
>technology that manifests itself not only in the laboratory but in
>themselves as well. The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
>water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?)

JKR has said that the four houses ³correspond roughly to the four
elements.² Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth, and
Slytherin is water. I've never regarded that as a major hint. Except for
Pomona Sprout (Herbology) being Head of Hufflepuff House and the Slytherin
Dormitories being located partially under the lake, I can think of no
other connections.

>and the minerals
>are sulfur, mercury, and salt. The three minerals, when combined with
>the elements, are the principle tools to effect the change of one
>substance to another. Alchemy purifies a base metal ultimately
>transfiguring it into pure gold, (felix felicis?) as well as the
>purification of body & soul of the alchemist. Quintessence is the final
>purest essence that remains by combining the above elements and
>minerals. Quintessence becomes, in effect, the fifth element, the
>purest essence, which is necessary for the alchemist to complete the
>process of soul development. It's when the alchemical process is
>performed on this fifth element, that the alchemist "...has integrated
>his being so much that he is no longer dependent upon his physical body
>as a foundation for his being. He now stands upon the sureness of the
>spiritual. He has, in this sense, attained the Philosopher's Stone,
>the spiritual core of his being. The phoenix completes this process of
>soul development." (Adam McLean '79). As DD said, "Death is the next
>great adventure."
>
> IMO, when DD says "in essence divided?" it means that for now the
>opposites (Harry & LV) are divided, but they will have to be united in
>order for Harry to achieve rebirth or resurrection. It symbolizes the
>fact that there's a shared nature between LV & Harry, hence the first
>single serpent head, but then "in essence divided" means one nature
>with two essences. This also throws in the "Christian parallel" aspect
>of another thread. At the Council of Chalcedon, The Church said the
>person of Christ as being one in essence with his Father, but also
>being God and man himself: one divided essence, two perfect natures
>(Harry & LV?)
>
>The symbol of two snakes joined together in alchemy is the uniting
>symbol, the joining of opposites. In the book "Alchemy & Psychology",
>there's a drawing of two men fighting, one with a snake and one with a
>bird. In the middle is Hermes, messenger of the Gods, who is holding
>two staffs. The staff that Hermes is holding is called a Caduceus and
>it is entwined by two serpents. Their union is the coming together of
>alchemical principles and the offspring (the purest essence) if it is
>achieved, is the Stone. The stone is represented as a "golden ball with
>wings" (what could that be?) at the top of the Caduceus.
>
>There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
>alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
>when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
>state in order for it to be reborn.

If you're just going by first names, I can see anybody in the "Black"
family tree as being a candidate for that one. From Wikipedia:

As with many Rowling characters, Sirius's name reveals part of his nature.
"Sirius Black" is a pun on his ability to turn into a giant black dog;
Sirius is the name of a star (the brightest one in the sky) which can be
found in the constellation Canis Major (the big dog). The star Sirius was
called "dog's star" by some ancient cultures such as the Egyptians. Most
(but not all) of Black's family is likewise named after stars (Bellatrix
is in the constellation of Orion; Regulus is in Leo. Andromeda is a
constellation in the northern hemisphere, as is Draco). "Black" is an
obvious reference to the colour of Sirius' canine alter ego.

I know where you're trying to take us with "reborn" but, except as a
reference to Sirius' Animagus, it could just as well be Regulus, Bellatrix
or...

>The second stage is called
>"albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is the purification stage, the
>washing or purifying of the metal.

I can only recall him ever having touched water swimming to/from the Cave.

>The third stage is called the
>"rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?). This stage is called the
>"purification". During this chemical process, the body of the metal is
>resurrected and the purified metal has been transfigured into pure
>gold.

Ever since reading about it, I have wondered why JKR should have felt it
necessary to reveal the future development of Hagrid's character to Robbie
Coltrane. I have only been able to come up with a romance between Olympe
Maxime and Hagrid after their very long visit to the Giants. That,
however, does seem to be a rather obvious possibility. Hmm...

>
>Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
>wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
>and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
>and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
>surrounded by the three principle minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
>
>OK, that's my "Sermon on the Mount" for now. I don't think all of the
>above are coincidences. However, if not, then I'm even more amazed at
>her depth of research.

I'll bet she secretly dabbles in Druidism.
--
Chris

Re: JK & research [message #239899 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 19:31

cwlNOSPAM

In article <1143560862.672494.193720 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>Toon wrote:
>> On 27 Mar 2006 17:39:23 -0800, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> >I was looking thru OOTP and re-reading the part where DD seems to be
>> >confirming Harry's story about Arthur Weasley with a silver instrument
>> >on his desk. I started to look around and found some amazing
>> >allegories, metaphors and parallels with alchemy. Jo is obviously
>> >familiar with it (hence, "Philosopher's Stone" and Nicholas Flamel).
>> >However, I'm now wondering just how much she really knows about it.
>> >All of the following also relates in a way to the possible endings of
>> >book 7 that have been discussed.
>> >
>> >First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
>> >coincidental(?) they are:
>> >1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
>> >2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
>> >3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
>> >"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
>> >this quintessence of dust?"
>> >4. In Greek mythology, the Phoenix is the symbol for unification.
>> >
>> >OOTP, p.470: "...the tiny puffs became a steady stream of smoke that
>> >thickened and coiled in the air...A serpent's head grew out of the end
>> >of it, opening its mouth wide. 'Naturally, naturally,' murmured DD.
>> >'But in essence divided?' The smoke serpent, however, split itself
>> >instantly into two snakes, both coiling and undulating in the dark air.
>> > DD gave the instrument another gentle tap with his wand...and the
>> >smoke serpents vanished."
>> >
>> >Alchemy is a chemical unity of imbalances. Opposites have to be
>> >reconciled and die before they can be reborn. It is balancing and
>> >resolving opposites, and can be either belief-driven or a
>> >scientific-based system. Alchemy plays out on three levels at once:
>> >physical, psychological, and spiritual. By developing the ability to
>> >work on all three levels at once, the alchemist creates a spiritual
>> >technology that manifests itself not only in the laboratory but in
>> >themselves as well. The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
>> >water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?) and the minerals
>> >are sulfur, mercury, and salt. The three minerals, when combined with
>> >the elements, are the principle tools to effect the change of one
>> >substance to another. Alchemy purifies a base metal ultimately
>> >transfiguring it into pure gold, (felix felicis?) as well as the
>> >purification of body & soul of the alchemist. Quintessence is the final
>> >purest essence that remains by combining the above elements and
>> >minerals. Quintessence becomes, in effect, the fifth element, the
>> >purest essence, which is necessary for the alchemist to complete the
>> >process of soul development. It's when the alchemical process is
>> >performed on this fifth element, that the alchemist "...has integrated
>> >his being so much that he is no longer dependent upon his physical body
>> >as a foundation for his being. He now stands upon the sureness of the
>> >spiritual. He has, in this sense, attained the Philosopher's Stone,
>> >the spiritual core of his being. The phoenix completes this process of
>> >soul development." (Adam McLean '79). As DD said, "Death is the next
>> >great adventure."
>> >
>> > IMO, when DD says "in essence divided?" it means that for now the
>> >opposites (Harry & LV) are divided, but they will have to be united in
>> >order for Harry to achieve rebirth or resurrection. It symbolizes the
>> >fact that there's a shared nature between LV & Harry, hence the first
>> >single serpent head, but then "in essence divided" means one nature
>> >with two essences. This also throws in the "Christian parallel" aspect
>> >of another thread. At the Council of Chalcedon, The Church said the
>> >person of Christ as being one in essence with his Father, but also
>> >being God and man himself: one divided essence, two perfect natures
>> >(Harry & LV?)
>> >
>> >The symbol of two snakes joined together in alchemy is the uniting
>> >symbol, the joining of opposites. In the book "Alchemy & Psychology",
>> >there's a drawing of two men fighting, one with a snake and one with a
>> >bird. In the middle is Hermes, messenger of the Gods, who is holding
>> >two staffs. The staff that Hermes is holding is called a Caduceus and
>> >it is entwined by two serpents. Their union is the coming together of
>> >alchemical principles and the offspring (the purest essence) if it is
>> >achieved, is the Stone. The stone is represented as a "golden ball with
>> >wings" (what could that be?) at the top of the Caduceus.
>> >
>> >There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
>> >alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
>> >when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
>> >state in order for it to be reborn. The second stage is called
>> >"albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is the purification stage, the
>> >washing or purifying of the metal. The third stage is called the
>> >"rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?). This stage is called the
>> >"purification". During this chemical process, the body of the metal is
>> >resurrected and the purified metal has been transfigured into pure
>> >gold.
>> >
>> >Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
>> >wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
>> >and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
>> >and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
>> >of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
>> >surrounded by the three principle minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
>> >
>> >OK, that's my "Sermon on the Mount" for now. I don't think all of the
>> >above are coincidences. However, if not, then I'm even more amazed at
>> >her depth of research.
>>
>> Snakes entwining a staff represents the medical community. because
>> doctors are a bunch of asps.
>
>
>LOL...that really is very good, Toon! However, even though the
>Cadeucus of Hermes that I mentioned above is commonly used as a symbol
>of medicine, it's incorrect. The one above symbolizes peace, a "coming
>together". The Romans used it as a symbol of peace during wars. The
>correct Cadeucus for medicine is called the Staff of Aesculapius, a
>single staff that has a single snake wrapped around it.

IIRC, in the US military, if you see a uniform wearing 2 snakes on the
staff it's a physician; 1 and it's a dentist.
--
Chris

Re: JK & research [message #239902 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 20:26

wadkin2000

Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> In article <1143560862.672494.193720 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Toon wrote:
> >> On 27 Mar 2006 17:39:23 -0800, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >I was looking thru OOTP and re-reading the part where DD seems to be
> >> >confirming Harry's story about Arthur Weasley with a silver instrument
> >> >on his desk. I started to look around and found some amazing
> >> >allegories, metaphors and parallels with alchemy. Jo is obviously
> >> >familiar with it (hence, "Philosopher's Stone" and Nicholas Flamel).
> >> >However, I'm now wondering just how much she really knows about it.
> >> >All of the following also relates in a way to the possible endings of
> >> >book 7 that have been discussed.
> >> >
> >> >First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
> >> >coincidental(?) they are:
> >> >1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
> >> >2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
> >> >3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
> >> >"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
> >> >this quintessence of dust?"
> >> >4. In Greek mythology, the Phoenix is the symbol for unification.
> >> >
> >> >OOTP, p.470: "...the tiny puffs became a steady stream of smoke that
> >> >thickened and coiled in the air...A serpent's head grew out of the end
> >> >of it, opening its mouth wide. 'Naturally, naturally,' murmured DD.
> >> >'But in essence divided?' The smoke serpent, however, split itself
> >> >instantly into two snakes, both coiling and undulating in the dark air.
> >> > DD gave the instrument another gentle tap with his wand...and the
> >> >smoke serpents vanished."
> >> >
> >> >Alchemy is a chemical unity of imbalances. Opposites have to be
> >> >reconciled and die before they can be reborn. It is balancing and
> >> >resolving opposites, and can be either belief-driven or a
> >> >scientific-based system. Alchemy plays out on three levels at once:
> >> >physical, psychological, and spiritual. By developing the ability to
> >> >work on all three levels at once, the alchemist creates a spiritual
> >> >technology that manifests itself not only in the laboratory but in
> >> >themselves as well. The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
> >> >water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?) and the minerals
> >> >are sulfur, mercury, and salt. The three minerals, when combined with
> >> >the elements, are the principle tools to effect the change of one
> >> >substance to another. Alchemy purifies a base metal ultimately
> >> >transfiguring it into pure gold, (felix felicis?) as well as the
> >> >purification of body & soul of the alchemist. Quintessence is the final
> >> >purest essence that remains by combining the above elements and
> >> >minerals. Quintessence becomes, in effect, the fifth element, the
> >> >purest essence, which is necessary for the alchemist to complete the
> >> >process of soul development. It's when the alchemical process is
> >> >performed on this fifth element, that the alchemist "...has integrated
> >> >his being so much that he is no longer dependent upon his physical body
> >> >as a foundation for his being. He now stands upon the sureness of the
> >> >spiritual. He has, in this sense, attained the Philosopher's Stone,
> >> >the spiritual core of his being. The phoenix completes this process of
> >> >soul development." (Adam McLean '79). As DD said, "Death is the next
> >> >great adventure."
> >> >
> >> > IMO, when DD says "in essence divided?" it means that for now the
> >> >opposites (Harry & LV) are divided, but they will have to be united in
> >> >order for Harry to achieve rebirth or resurrection. It symbolizes the
> >> >fact that there's a shared nature between LV & Harry, hence the first
> >> >single serpent head, but then "in essence divided" means one nature
> >> >with two essences. This also throws in the "Christian parallel" aspect
> >> >of another thread. At the Council of Chalcedon, The Church said the
> >> >person of Christ as being one in essence with his Father, but also
> >> >being God and man himself: one divided essence, two perfect natures
> >> >(Harry & LV?)
> >> >
> >> >The symbol of two snakes joined together in alchemy is the uniting
> >> >symbol, the joining of opposites. In the book "Alchemy & Psychology",
> >> >there's a drawing of two men fighting, one with a snake and one with a
> >> >bird. In the middle is Hermes, messenger of the Gods, who is holding
> >> >two staffs. The staff that Hermes is holding is called a Caduceus and
> >> >it is entwined by two serpents. Their union is the coming together of
> >> >alchemical principles and the offspring (the purest essence) if it is
> >> >achieved, is the Stone. The stone is represented as a "golden ball with
> >> >wings" (what could that be?) at the top of the Caduceus.
> >> >
> >> >There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
> >> >alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
> >> >when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
> >> >state in order for it to be reborn. The second stage is called
> >> >"albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is the purification stage, the
> >> >washing or purifying of the metal. The third stage is called the
> >> >"rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?). This stage is called the
> >> >"purification". During this chemical process, the body of the metal is
> >> >resurrected and the purified metal has been transfigured into pure
> >> >gold.
> >> >
> >> >Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
> >> >wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
> >> >and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
> >> >and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
> >> >of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
> >> >surrounded by the three principle minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
> >> >
> >> >OK, that's my "Sermon on the Mount" for now. I don't think all of the
> >> >above are coincidences. However, if not, then I'm even more amazed at
> >> >her depth of research.
> >>
> >> Snakes entwining a staff represents the medical community. because
> >> doctors are a bunch of asps.
> >
> >
> >LOL...that really is very good, Toon! However, even though the
> >Cadeucus of Hermes that I mentioned above is commonly used as a symbol
> >of medicine, it's incorrect. The one above symbolizes peace, a "coming
> >together". The Romans used it as a symbol of peace during wars. The
> >correct Cadeucus for medicine is called the Staff of Aesculapius, a
> >single staff that has a single snake wrapped around it.
>
> IIRC, in the US military, if you see a uniform wearing 2 snakes on the
> staff it's a physician; 1 and it's a dentist.
> --
> Chris

You're right about the military. The Hermes Cadeucus was adopted by
the US military in 1902 as the official insignia of the Medical dept.
of the US Army. However, it's still the incorrect symbol to display
medicine. In the 16,17,& 18th centuries, both the Cadeucus and the
Staff of Aesculapius were used as pharmaceutical emblems. In the 19th
century, they started being used (incorrectly) interchangeably. People
thought that the staff was a cadeucus as well, but it's not.
Aesculapius was the "God of Medicine", a healer and physician, and it's
the Staff of Aesculapius that's the correct symbol for medicine. I
think it's mostly used in Europe, and IIRC, the WHO as well. The
Hermes Cadeucus is used alot in the US, mostly after the Army adopted
it. Hermes' loose connection with medicine is through his association
with alchemy.

I think you're right about the "Black" theory. I just found it
interesting that it did correspond (with the red and white) to one of
the stages.

As far as the four houses connection, I didn't mean that there was a
physical connection with the four elements. I thought it curious that
she associated each house with an element that is necessary in order to
achieve perfect unity in alchemy; hence the whole "four houses have to
join together" in order to be strong.

Cassie

Re: JK & research [message #239913 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 22:53

Zolak of Twylo

On 2006-03-28 13:26:00 -0500, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com said:

> As far as the four houses connection, I didn't mean that there was a
> physical connection with the four elements. I thought it curious that
> she associated each house with an element that is necessary in order to
> achieve perfect unity in alchemy; hence the whole "four houses have to
> join together" in order to be strong.
>
> Cassie

Exactly as the Sorting Hat sang.

--
Enjoy,

Zolak of Twylo

Re: JK & research [message #239935 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 03:58

Imagun Aqilya

<wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1143509962.992334.150980 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

> There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
> alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
> when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
> state in order for it to be reborn. The second stage is called
> "albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is the purification stage, the
> washing or purifying of the metal. The third stage is called the
> "rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?). This stage is called the
> "purification". During this chemical process, the body of the metal is
> resurrected and the purified metal has been transfigured into pure
> gold.
>

I wonder if this means that Hagrid's going to bite it in the final book.

Re: JK & research [message #243656 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 11:34

Toon

On 28 Mar 2006 07:47:42 -0800, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>> Snakes entwining a staff represents the medical community. because
>> doctors are a bunch of asps.
>
>
>LOL...that really is very good, Toon! However, even though the
>Cadeucus of Hermes that I mentioned above is commonly used as a symbol
>of medicine, it's incorrect. The one above symbolizes peace, a "coming
>together". The Romans used it as a symbol of peace during wars. The
>correct Cadeucus for medicine is called the Staff of Aesculapius, a
>single staff that has a single snake wrapped around it.

Ah, but I bet it's essence is divided.

Re: JK & research [message #243682 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 17:21

wadkin2000

Toon wrote:
> On 28 Mar 2006 07:47:42 -0800, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >> Snakes entwining a staff represents the medical community. because
> >> doctors are a bunch of asps.
> >
> >
> >LOL...that really is very good, Toon! However, even though the
> >Cadeucus of Hermes that I mentioned above is commonly used as a symbol
> >of medicine, it's incorrect. The one above symbolizes peace, a "coming
> >together". The Romans used it as a symbol of peace during wars. The
> >correct Cadeucus for medicine is called the Staff of Aesculapius, a
> >single staff that has a single snake wrapped around it.
>
> Ah, but I bet it's essence is divided.

ROTFL....I think I know more about alchemy and mythology than I ever
every wanted to know, but once I got started, it really was
fascinating. Like the energizer bunny, I just kept...(nah, never
mind..won't go there!). I guess it was the "manic" side of
"manic-depressive" that took over! Just kidding (and I really DO mean
it this time!)

Re: JK & research [message #243848 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 07:33

dicconf

In article <cwlNOSPAM-2803061931000001 [at] o4da6.o.pppool.de>,
Green-Eyed Chris <cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de> wrote:
>wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
<snip>

>>First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
>>coincidental(?) they are:
>>1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
>>2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
>>3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
>>"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
>>this quintessence of dust?"

There's another line in that which comes to mind:
"This majestical roof fretted with golden fire/
Why it appears no other thing to me /
Than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors"

For some reason I am reminded of the ceiling of the Great Hall.

<snip>
>> The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
>>water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?)

>JKR has said that the four houses ³correspond roughly to the four
>elements.² Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth,
>and Slytherin is water. I've never regarded that as a major hint.
>Except for Pomona Sprout (Herbology) being Head of Hufflepuff House
>and the Slytherin Dormitories being located partially under the lake,
>I can think of no other connections.

Potions are generally liquid.
Luna (a Ravenclaw) is something of an airhead.

>>and the minerals are sulfur, mercury, and salt.
>>The three minerals, when combined with the elements,
>>are the principal tools to effect the change of one
>>substance to another. Alchemy purifies a base metal ultimately
>>transfiguring it into pure gold, (felix felicis?) as well as the
>>purification of body & soul of the alchemist. Quintessence is the final
>>purest essence that remains by combining the above elements and
>>minerals. Quintessence becomes, in effect, the fifth element, the
>>purest essence, which is necessary for the alchemist to complete the
>>process of soul development.
<snip>

>>The symbol of two snakes joined together in alchemy is the uniting
>>symbol, the joining of opposites. In the book "Alchemy & Psychology",
>>there's a drawing of two men fighting, one with a snake and one with a
>>bird. In the middle is Hermes, messenger of the Gods, who is holding
>>two staffs. The staff that Hermes is holding is called a Caduceus and
>>it is entwined by two serpents. Their union is the coming together of
>>alchemical principles and the offspring (the purest essence) if it is
>>achieved, is the Stone. The stone is represented as a "golden ball with
>>wings" (what could that be?) at the top of the Caduceus.

Good catch.

>>There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
>>alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
>>when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
>>state in order for it to be reborn.
>
>If you're just going by first names, I can see anybody in the "Black"
>family tree as being a candidate for that one. From Wikipedia:
>
>As with many Rowling characters, Sirius's name reveals part of his nature.
>"Sirius Black" is a pun on his ability to turn into a giant black dog;
>Sirius is the name of a star (the brightest one in the sky) which can be
>found in the constellation Canis Major (the big dog). The star Sirius was
>called "dog's star" by some ancient cultures such as the Egyptians. Most
>(but not all) of Black's family is likewise named after stars (Bellatrix
>is in the constellation of Orion; Regulus is in Leo. Andromeda is a
>constellation in the northern hemisphere, as is Draco). "Black" is an
>obvious reference to the colour of Sirius' canine alter ego.
>
>I know where you're trying to take us with "reborn" but, except as a
>reference to Sirius' Animagus, it could just as well be Regulus,
>Bellatrix or...

The star Sirius has been observed since the times of Ancient Egypt
to die (sink below the horizon) for the same length of time every year
and be reborn (become visible above the horizon) again. It was part of
several major religions. That's one good reason for associating it
with Sirius.

>>The second stage is called "albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is
>>the purification stage, the washing or purifying of the metal.
>
>I can only recall him ever having touched water swimming to/from the Cave.

The other person who swims in that scene is Harry.

Consider the possibility that the actions are represented by the characters
with those names, but the substance on which they act is Harry.
Sirius Black dies mysteriously, and Harry is changed.
Albus dies, not so mysteriously, and Harry is changed further.
The final stage:

>>The third stage is called the "rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?).
>>This stage is called the "purification". During this chemical process,
>>the body of the metal is resurrected and the purified metal has been
>>transfigured into pure gold.

Transfiguration is difficult and dangerous, as McGonagall tells the class
on their first day. Dumbledore used to teach Transfiguration; he may
have been the one who taught McGonagall. The more difficult forms
involve self-transfiguration - a very risky thing to do, because
if you do it entirely you lose the ability to change back, according
to FBAWTFT. Krum partly transfigured himself in GoF, 2nd task.

>Ever since reading about it, I have wondered why JKR should have felt
>it necessary to reveal the future development of Hagrid's character
>to Robbie Coltrane. I have only been able to come up with a romance
>between Olympe Maxime and Hagrid after their very long visit to the
>Giants. That, however, does seem to be a rather obvious possibility.
>Hmm...

The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.
Dumbledore said "I would trust Hagrid with my life." (PS/SS, leaving
Harry on the doorstep) I don't recall his ever saying that about
Snape. Trust yes, but not "with my life". And Hagrid had complete
responsibility for preparing the body, carrying it (totally covered)
to the funeral, and at the last minute, doing something nobody could
see. I speculate that Hagrid did something to prepare Dumbledore for
a final transfiguration - which doesn't mean DD is alive. On the
contrary - the alchemy information posted includes the detail that
at the later stages the body becomes unimportant.

>>Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
>>wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
>>and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
>>and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
>>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
>>surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.

Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?

=Tamar

Re: JK & research [message #243870 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 12:01

cwlNOSPAM

In article <122s45d9soi9p11 [at] corp.supernews.com>, dicconf [at] radix.net
(Richard Eney) wrote:

>In article <cwlNOSPAM-2803061931000001 [at] o4da6.o.pppool.de>,
>Green-Eyed Chris <cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de> wrote:
>>wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
><snip>
>
>>>First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
>>>coincidental(?) they are:
>>>1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
>>>2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
>>>3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
>>>"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
>>>this quintessence of dust?"
>
>There's another line in that which comes to mind:
>"This majestical roof fretted with golden fire/
>Why it appears no other thing to me /
>Than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors"
>
>For some reason I am reminded of the ceiling of the Great Hall.

I think that fits in very well.

>
><snip>
>>> The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
>>>water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?)
>
>>JKR has said that the four houses ³correspond roughly to the four
>>elements.² Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth,
>>and Slytherin is water. I've never regarded that as a major hint.
>>Except for Pomona Sprout (Herbology) being Head of Hufflepuff House
>>and the Slytherin Dormitories being located partially under the lake,
>>I can think of no other connections.
>
>Potions are generally liquid.
>Luna (a Ravenclaw) is something of an airhead.

LOL! So are you and Cassie. ;-) I say that affectionately because I feel
like a Hufflepuff with all of the airy theories in this thread. I'm glad
you two are around to explain them.

<snip>

>
>>>There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
>>>alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
>>>when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
>>>state in order for it to be reborn.
>>
>>If you're just going by first names, I can see anybody in the "Black"
>>family tree as being a candidate for that one. From Wikipedia:
>>
>>As with many Rowling characters, Sirius's name reveals part of his nature.
>>"Sirius Black" is a pun on his ability to turn into a giant black dog;
>>Sirius is the name of a star (the brightest one in the sky) which can be
>>found in the constellation Canis Major (the big dog). The star Sirius was
>>called "dog's star" by some ancient cultures such as the Egyptians. Most
>>(but not all) of Black's family is likewise named after stars (Bellatrix
>>is in the constellation of Orion; Regulus is in Leo. Andromeda is a
>>constellation in the northern hemisphere, as is Draco). "Black" is an
>>obvious reference to the colour of Sirius' canine alter ego.
>>
>>I know where you're trying to take us with "reborn" but, except as a
>>reference to Sirius' Animagus, it could just as well be Regulus,
>>Bellatrix or...
>
>The star Sirius has been observed since the times of Ancient Egypt
>to die (sink below the horizon) for the same length of time every year
>and be reborn (become visible above the horizon) again. It was part of
>several major religions. That's one good reason for associating it
>with Sirius.

OK, I can buy that.

>
>>>The second stage is called "albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is
>>>the purification stage, the washing or purifying of the metal.
>>
>>I can only recall him ever having touched water swimming to/from the Cave.
>
>The other person who swims in that scene is Harry.
>
>Consider the possibility that the actions are represented by the characters
>with those names, but the substance on which they act is Harry.

I'm trying but I think it would work better if I were drunk.

>Sirius Black dies mysteriously, and Harry is changed.
>Albus dies, not so mysteriously, and Harry is changed further.
>The final stage:
>
>>>The third stage is called the "rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?).
>>>This stage is called the "purification". During this chemical process,
>>>the body of the metal is resurrected and the purified metal has been
>>>transfigured into pure gold.
>
>Transfiguration is difficult and dangerous, as McGonagall tells the class
>on their first day. Dumbledore used to teach Transfiguration; he may
>have been the one who taught McGonagall. The more difficult forms
>involve self-transfiguration - a very risky thing to do, because
>if you do it entirely you lose the ability to change back, according
>to FBAWTFT. Krum partly transfigured himself in GoF, 2nd task.
>
>>Ever since reading about it, I have wondered why JKR should have felt
>>it necessary to reveal the future development of Hagrid's character
>>to Robbie Coltrane. I have only been able to come up with a romance
>>between Olympe Maxime and Hagrid after their very long visit to the
>>Giants. That, however, does seem to be a rather obvious possibility.
>>Hmm...
>
>The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
>So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.
>Dumbledore said "I would trust Hagrid with my life." (PS/SS, leaving
>Harry on the doorstep) I don't recall his ever saying that about
>Snape. Trust yes, but not "with my life". And Hagrid had complete
>responsibility for preparing the body, carrying it (totally covered)
>to the funeral, and at the last minute, doing something nobody could
>see. I speculate that Hagrid did something to prepare Dumbledore for
>a final transfiguration - which doesn't mean DD is alive. On the
>contrary - the alchemy information posted includes the detail that
>at the later stages the body becomes unimportant.

IIRC, Coltrane and Rickman were informed, presumably separately, before or
during the shooting of GoF. This leads me to believe that JKR was thinking
of something more long-term rather that something specific in movie 7.

I don't have the DVD yet, but I do recall Hagrid's accentuated infatuation
with Olympe. Snape was very much changed in GoF, Rickman's few scenes
being dominated by concern for Harry's safety.

1) The look he gives Harry, whose name has just come out of the Goblet,
can be described as neutral with a wisp of concern.

2) When the dragon barely misses whopping Harry with his tail, there is a
very brief shot of McGonagall and Snape. His concern and shock is twice
that of Harry's Head of House and it is genuine.

3) The scene where Harry and Ron are whacked on the head with a book is
played for comedy rather than hate. (Will Daniel ever learn not to laugh
before the punch-line?)

4) When Snape accuses Harry of stealing from his storeroom, he is
surprisingly subdued.

5) After Harry returns from the graveyard, Snape hears that a boy has
died. His face turns to panic and he immediately races to the scene.

6) Snape protectively throws himself in front of Harry when Barty Crouch
Jr. lunges at him.

Rickman's performance indicates to me that there is more to Snape's
concern for Harry's safety that just saving him for the Dark Lord,
although that option is still very much open.

>
>>>Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
>>>wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
>>>and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
>>>and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
>>>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
>>>surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
>
>Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
>centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?

How do you do that? I could sniff a bottle of ether and not make those
associations.
--
Chris

Re: JK & research [message #243889 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 17:47

wadkin2000

Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> In article <122s45d9soi9p11 [at] corp.supernews.com>, dicconf [at] radix.net
> (Richard Eney) wrote:
>
> >In article <cwlNOSPAM-2803061931000001 [at] o4da6.o.pppool.de>,
> >Green-Eyed Chris <cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de> wrote:
> >>wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> ><snip>
> >
> >>>First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
> >>>coincidental(?) they are:
> >>>1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
> >>>2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
> >>>3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
> >>>"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
> >>>this quintessence of dust?"
> >
> >There's another line in that which comes to mind:
> >"This majestical roof fretted with golden fire/
> >Why it appears no other thing to me /
> >Than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors"
> >
> >For some reason I am reminded of the ceiling of the Great Hall.
>
> I think that fits in very well.
>
> >
> ><snip>
> >>> The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
> >>>water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?)
> >
> >>JKR has said that the four houses =B3correspond roughly to the four
> >>elements.=B2 Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth,
> >>and Slytherin is water. I've never regarded that as a major hint.
> >>Except for Pomona Sprout (Herbology) being Head of Hufflepuff House
> >>and the Slytherin Dormitories being located partially under the lake,
> >>I can think of no other connections.
> >
> >Potions are generally liquid.
> >Luna (a Ravenclaw) is something of an airhead.
>
> LOL! So are you and Cassie. ;-) I say that affectionately because I feel
> like a Hufflepuff with all of the airy theories in this thread. I'm glad
> you two are around to explain them.
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> >>>There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
> >>>alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
> >>>when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
> >>>state in order for it to be reborn.
> >>
> >>If you're just going by first names, I can see anybody in the "Black"
> >>family tree as being a candidate for that one. From Wikipedia:
> >>
> >>As with many Rowling characters, Sirius's name reveals part of his natu=
re.
> >>"Sirius Black" is a pun on his ability to turn into a giant black dog;
> >>Sirius is the name of a star (the brightest one in the sky) which can be
> >>found in the constellation Canis Major (the big dog). The star Sirius w=
as
> >>called "dog's star" by some ancient cultures such as the Egyptians. Most
> >>(but not all) of Black's family is likewise named after stars (Bellatrix
> >>is in the constellation of Orion; Regulus is in Leo. Andromeda is a
> >>constellation in the northern hemisphere, as is Draco). "Black" is an
> >>obvious reference to the colour of Sirius' canine alter ego.
> >>
> >>I know where you're trying to take us with "reborn" but, except as a
> >>reference to Sirius' Animagus, it could just as well be Regulus,
> >>Bellatrix or...
> >
> >The star Sirius has been observed since the times of Ancient Egypt
> >to die (sink below the horizon) for the same length of time every year
> >and be reborn (become visible above the horizon) again. It was part of
> >several major religions. That's one good reason for associating it
> >with Sirius.
>
> OK, I can buy that.
>
> >
> >>>The second stage is called "albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is
> >>>the purification stage, the washing or purifying of the metal.
> >>
> >>I can only recall him ever having touched water swimming to/from the Ca=
ve.
> >
> >The other person who swims in that scene is Harry.
> >
> >Consider the possibility that the actions are represented by the charact=
ers
> >with those names, but the substance on which they act is Harry.
>
> I'm trying but I think it would work better if I were drunk.
>
> >Sirius Black dies mysteriously, and Harry is changed.
> >Albus dies, not so mysteriously, and Harry is changed further.
> >The final stage:
> >
> >>>The third stage is called the "rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?).
> >>>This stage is called the "purification". During this chemical process,
> >>>the body of the metal is resurrected and the purified metal has been
> >>>transfigured into pure gold.
> >
> >Transfiguration is difficult and dangerous, as McGonagall tells the class
> >on their first day. Dumbledore used to teach Transfiguration; he may
> >have been the one who taught McGonagall. The more difficult forms
> >involve self-transfiguration - a very risky thing to do, because
> >if you do it entirely you lose the ability to change back, according
> >to FBAWTFT. Krum partly transfigured himself in GoF, 2nd task.
> >
> >>Ever since reading about it, I have wondered why JKR should have felt
> >>it necessary to reveal the future development of Hagrid's character
> >>to Robbie Coltrane. I have only been able to come up with a romance
> >>between Olympe Maxime and Hagrid after their very long visit to the
> >>Giants. That, however, does seem to be a rather obvious possibility.
> >>Hmm...
> >
> >The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
> >So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.
> >Dumbledore said "I would trust Hagrid with my life." (PS/SS, leaving
> >Harry on the doorstep) I don't recall his ever saying that about
> >Snape. Trust yes, but not "with my life". And Hagrid had complete
> >responsibility for preparing the body, carrying it (totally covered)
> >to the funeral, and at the last minute, doing something nobody could
> >see. I speculate that Hagrid did something to prepare Dumbledore for
> >a final transfiguration - which doesn't mean DD is alive. On the
> >contrary - the alchemy information posted includes the detail that
> >at the later stages the body becomes unimportant.
>
> IIRC, Coltrane and Rickman were informed, presumably separately, before or
> during the shooting of GoF. This leads me to believe that JKR was thinking
> of something more long-term rather that something specific in movie 7.
>
> I don't have the DVD yet, but I do recall Hagrid's accentuated infatuation
> with Olympe. Snape was very much changed in GoF, Rickman's few scenes
> being dominated by concern for Harry's safety.
>
> 1) The look he gives Harry, whose name has just come out of the Goblet,
> can be described as neutral with a wisp of concern.
>
> 2) When the dragon barely misses whopping Harry with his tail, there is a
> very brief shot of McGonagall and Snape. His concern and shock is twice
> that of Harry's Head of House and it is genuine.
>
> 3) The scene where Harry and Ron are whacked on the head with a book is
> played for comedy rather than hate. (Will Daniel ever learn not to laugh
> before the punch-line?)
>
> 4) When Snape accuses Harry of stealing from his storeroom, he is
> surprisingly subdued.
>
> 5) After Harry returns from the graveyard, Snape hears that a boy has
> died. His face turns to panic and he immediately races to the scene.
>
> 6) Snape protectively throws himself in front of Harry when Barty Crouch
> Jr. lunges at him.
>
> Rickman's performance indicates to me that there is more to Snape's
> concern for Harry's safety that just saving him for the Dark Lord,
> although that option is still very much open.
>
> >
> >>>Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
> >>>wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
> >>>and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
> >>>and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
> >>>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
> >>>surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
> >
> >Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
> >centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?
>
> How do you do that? I could sniff a bottle of ether and not make those
> associations.
> --
> Chris

Ahhh, Chris...All you need is a couple of glasses of wine, a couple of
sniffs of ether, and (well, this is a public newsgroup-won't mention
the third task!) to achieve "eternal glory"(GOF): the understanding of
all of the above!

Cassie

Re: JK & research [message #243893 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 18:16

wadkin2000

BTW Chris, really good catches on the Snape scenes! I sincerely hope
that the "Snape is not evil" group will "have their day!" I also
noticed in another thread, that you went to the red hen site. What did
you think of it? I was able to get through about a quarter of them so
far since they're long. Sent you a email about it, but it got bounced
back.

Cassie

Re: JK & research [message #243895 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 18:21

wadkin2000

BTW Chris, very good catch on the Snape scenes! I hope the "Snape is
not evil" group will "have their day!" I also noticed tn another
thread that you went to the red hen site. What did you think of it?
I've only gotten through a few of the article since they're so long,
and I don't necessarily agree with all of them, but it's a fascinating
read!

Re: JK & research [message #243905 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 20:33

wadkin2000

> >wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> <snip>

> >> In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
> >>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
> >>surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
>
> Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
> centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?
>
> =Tamar

I think you're probably right about the centaur/mercury connection. In
alchemy, Mercury is the most important mineral. It contains and
unifies duality, just as Hermes is a symbol of unification in mythology
as well. Interestingly, the centaur in astrology symbolizes man's dual
nature.

As for the goblin and house elf, I don't know. Generally, salt is
supposed to be a symbol for knowledge and wisdom and sulfur, the symbol
for omnipresence, the spirit of life.

Re: JK & research [message #243908 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 21:05

wadkin2000

Re: JK & research [message #243909 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 21:19

wadkin2000

Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> In article <122s45d9soi9p11 [at] corp.supernews.com>, dicconf [at] radix.net
> (Richard Eney) wrote:
>
> >In article <cwlNOSPAM-2803061931000001 [at] o4da6.o.pppool.de>,
> >Green-Eyed Chris <cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de> wrote:
> >>wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> ><snip>
> >
> >>>First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
> >>>coincidental(?) they are:
> >>>1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
> >>>2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
> >>>3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
> >>>"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
> >>>this quintessence of dust?"
> >
> >There's another line in that which comes to mind:
> >"This majestical roof fretted with golden fire/
> >Why it appears no other thing to me /
> >Than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors"
> >
> >For some reason I am reminded of the ceiling of the Great Hall.
>
> I think that fits in very well.
>
> >
> ><snip>
> >>> The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
> >>>water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?)
> >
> >>JKR has said that the four houses =B3correspond roughly to the four
> >>elements.=B2 Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth,
> >>and Slytherin is water. I've never regarded that as a major hint.
> >>Except for Pomona Sprout (Herbology) being Head of Hufflepuff House
> >>and the Slytherin Dormitories being located partially under the lake,
> >>I can think of no other connections.
> >
> >Potions are generally liquid.
> >Luna (a Ravenclaw) is something of an airhead.
>
> LOL! So are you and Cassie. ;-) I say that affectionately because I feel
> like a Hufflepuff with all of the airy theories in this thread. I'm glad
> you two are around to explain them.
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> >>>There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
> >>>alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
> >>>when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
> >>>state in order for it to be reborn.
> >>
> >>If you're just going by first names, I can see anybody in the "Black"
> >>family tree as being a candidate for that one. From Wikipedia:
> >>
> >>As with many Rowling characters, Sirius's name reveals part of his natu=
re.
> >>"Sirius Black" is a pun on his ability to turn into a giant black dog;
> >>Sirius is the name of a star (the brightest one in the sky) which can be
> >>found in the constellation Canis Major (the big dog). The star Sirius w=
as
> >>called "dog's star" by some ancient cultures such as the Egyptians. Most
> >>(but not all) of Black's family is likewise named after stars (Bellatrix
> >>is in the constellation of Orion; Regulus is in Leo. Andromeda is a
> >>constellation in the northern hemisphere, as is Draco). "Black" is an
> >>obvious reference to the colour of Sirius' canine alter ego.
> >>
> >>I know where you're trying to take us with "reborn" but, except as a
> >>reference to Sirius' Animagus, it could just as well be Regulus,
> >>Bellatrix or...
> >
> >The star Sirius has been observed since the times of Ancient Egypt
> >to die (sink below the horizon) for the same length of time every year
> >and be reborn (become visible above the horizon) again. It was part of
> >several major religions. That's one good reason for associating it
> >with Sirius.
>
> OK, I can buy that.
>
> >
> >>>The second stage is called "albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is
> >>>the purification stage, the washing or purifying of the metal.
> >>
> >>I can only recall him ever having touched water swimming to/from the Ca=
ve.
> >
> >The other person who swims in that scene is Harry.
> >
> >Consider the possibility that the actions are represented by the charact=
ers
> >with those names, but the substance on which they act is Harry.
>
> I'm trying but I think it would work better if I were drunk.
>
> >Sirius Black dies mysteriously, and Harry is changed.
> >Albus dies, not so mysteriously, and Harry is changed further.
> >The final stage:
> >
> >>>The third stage is called the "rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?).
> >>>This stage is called the "purification". During this chemical process,
> >>>the body of the metal is resurrected and the purified metal has been
> >>>transfigured into pure gold.
> >
> >Transfiguration is difficult and dangerous, as McGonagall tells the class
> >on their first day. Dumbledore used to teach Transfiguration; he may
> >have been the one who taught McGonagall. The more difficult forms
> >involve self-transfiguration - a very risky thing to do, because
> >if you do it entirely you lose the ability to change back, according
> >to FBAWTFT. Krum partly transfigured himself in GoF, 2nd task.
> >
> >>Ever since reading about it, I have wondered why JKR should have felt
> >>it necessary to reveal the future development of Hagrid's character
> >>to Robbie Coltrane. I have only been able to come up with a romance
> >>between Olympe Maxime and Hagrid after their very long visit to the
> >>Giants. That, however, does seem to be a rather obvious possibility.
> >>Hmm...
> >
> >The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
> >So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.
> >Dumbledore said "I would trust Hagrid with my life." (PS/SS, leaving
> >Harry on the doorstep) I don't recall his ever saying that about
> >Snape. Trust yes, but not "with my life". And Hagrid had complete
> >responsibility for preparing the body, carrying it (totally covered)
> >to the funeral, and at the last minute, doing something nobody could
> >see. I speculate that Hagrid did something to prepare Dumbledore for
> >a final transfiguration - which doesn't mean DD is alive. On the
> >contrary - the alchemy information posted includes the detail that
> >at the later stages the body becomes unimportant.
>
> IIRC, Coltrane and Rickman were informed, presumably separately, before or
> during the shooting of GoF. This leads me to believe that JKR was thinking
> of something more long-term rather that something specific in movie 7.
>
> I don't have the DVD yet, but I do recall Hagrid's accentuated infatuation
> with Olympe. Snape was very much changed in GoF, Rickman's few scenes
> being dominated by concern for Harry's safety.
>
> 1) The look he gives Harry, whose name has just come out of the Goblet,
> can be described as neutral with a wisp of concern.
>
> 2) When the dragon barely misses whopping Harry with his tail, there is a
> very brief shot of McGonagall and Snape. His concern and shock is twice
> that of Harry's Head of House and it is genuine.
>
> 3) The scene where Harry and Ron are whacked on the head with a book is
> played for comedy rather than hate. (Will Daniel ever learn not to laugh
> before the punch-line?)
>
> 4) When Snape accuses Harry of stealing from his storeroom, he is
> surprisingly subdued.
>
> 5) After Harry returns from the graveyard, Snape hears that a boy has
> died. His face turns to panic and he immediately races to the scene.
>
> 6) Snape protectively throws himself in front of Harry when Barty Crouch
> Jr. lunges at him.
>
> Rickman's performance indicates to me that there is more to Snape's
> concern for Harry's safety that just saving him for the Dark Lord,
> although that option is still very much open.
>
> >
> >>>Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
> >>>wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
> >>>and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
> >>>and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
> >>>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
> >>>surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
> >
> >Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
> >centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?
>
> How do you do that? I could sniff a bottle of ether and not make those
> associations.
> --
> Chris

Good catch, Chris, on the Snape scenes. I really hope that the "Snape
is not evil" group has its day! BTW, I noticed in another thread that
you went to the Red Hen site. How did you like it? I haven't gotten
through too many of the essays since they're so long, (and I don't
necessarily agree with a few of them) but I found the site to be an
interesting read.

Re: JK & research [message #243910 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 21:23

Kish

wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>
> Good catch, Chris, on the Snape scenes. I really hope that the "Snape
> is not evil" group has its day!

Playing him like he actually likes Harry now--gaaaaah.

Re: JK & research [message #243913 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 23:14

wadkin2000

Kish wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >
> > Good catch, Chris, on the Snape scenes. I really hope that the "Snape
> > is not evil" group has its day!
>
> Playing him like he actually likes Harry now--gaaaaah.

Aw, come on! Who knows "What 'goodness' lurks in the heart of 'Snape'?"

Re: JK & research [message #243918 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 23:50

Blon Fel Fotch Passam

Tamar wrote:

> Green-Eyed Chris wrote:

>> Wadkin 2000 wrote:

>>> First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
>>> coincidental(?) they are:
>>> 1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
>>> 2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
>>> 3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
>>> "The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
>>> this quintessence of dust?"

> There's another line in that which comes to mind:
> "This majestical roof fretted with golden fire/
> Why it appears no other thing to me /
> Than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors"

> For some reason I am reminded of the ceiling of the Great Hall.

> <snip>
>>> The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
>>> water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?)

>> JKR has said that the four houses ³correspond roughly to the four
>> elements.² Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth,
>> and Slytherin is water. I've never regarded that as a major hint.
>> Except for Pomona Sprout (Herbology) being Head of Hufflepuff House
>> and the Slytherin Dormitories being located partially under the lake,
>> I can think of no other connections.

> Potions are generally liquid.
> Luna (a Ravenclaw) is something of an airhead.

>>> and the minerals are sulfur, mercury, and salt.
>>> The three minerals, when combined with the elements,
>>> are the principal tools to effect the change of one
>>> substance to another. Alchemy purifies a base metal ultimately
>>> transfiguring it into pure gold, (felix felicis?) as well as the
>>> purification of body & soul of the alchemist. Quintessence is the final
>>> purest essence that remains by combining the above elements and
>>> minerals. Quintessence becomes, in effect, the fifth element, the
>>> purest essence, which is necessary for the alchemist to complete the
>>> process of soul development.
> <snip>

>>> The symbol of two snakes joined together in alchemy is the uniting
>>> symbol, the joining of opposites. In the book "Alchemy & Psychology",
>>> there's a drawing of two men fighting, one with a snake and one with a
>>> bird. In the middle is Hermes, messenger of the Gods, who is holding
>>> two staffs. The staff that Hermes is holding is called a Caduceus and
>>> it is entwined by two serpents. Their union is the coming together of
>>> alchemical principles and the offspring (the purest essence) if it is
>>> achieved, is the Stone. The stone is represented as a "golden ball with
>>> wings" (what could that be?) at the top of the Caduceus.

> Good catch.

>>> There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
>>> alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
>>> when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
>>> state in order for it to be reborn.

>> If you're just going by first names, I can see anybody in the "Black"
>> family tree as being a candidate for that one. From Wikipedia:

>> As with many Rowling characters, Sirius's name reveals part of his
>> nature. "Sirius Black" is a pun on his ability to turn into a giant
>> black dog; Sirius is the name of a star (the brightest one in the sky)
>> which can be found in the constellation Canis Major (the big dog). The
>> star Sirius was called "dog's star" by some ancient cultures such as
>> the Egyptians. Most (but not all) of Black's family is likewise named
>> after stars (Bellatrix is in the constellation of Orion; Regulus is in
>> Leo. Andromeda is a constellation in the northern hemisphere, as is
>> Draco). "Black" is an obvious reference to the colour of Sirius' canine
>> alter ego.

>> I know where you're trying to take us with "reborn" but, except as a
>> reference to Sirius' Animagus, it could just as well be Regulus,
>> Bellatrix or...

> The star Sirius has been observed since the times of Ancient Egypt
> to die (sink below the horizon) for the same length of time every year
> and be reborn (become visible above the horizon) again. It was part of
> several major religions. That's one good reason for associating it
> with Sirius.

>>> The second stage is called "albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is
>>> the purification stage, the washing or purifying of the metal.

>> I can only recall him ever having touched water swimming to/from the
> Cave.

> The other person who swims in that scene is Harry.

> Consider the possibility that the actions are represented by the
> characters
> with those names, but the substance on which they act is Harry.
> Sirius Black dies mysteriously, and Harry is changed.
> Albus dies, not so mysteriously, and Harry is changed further.
> The final stage:

>>> The third stage is called the "rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?).
>>> This stage is called the "purification". During this chemical process,
>>> the body of the metal is resurrected and the purified metal has been
>>> transfigured into pure gold.

> Transfiguration is difficult and dangerous, as McGonagall tells the class
> on their first day. Dumbledore used to teach Transfiguration; he may
> have been the one who taught McGonagall. The more difficult forms
> involve self-transfiguration - a very risky thing to do, because
> if you do it entirely you lose the ability to change back, according
> to FBAWTFT. Krum partly transfigured himself in GoF, 2nd task.

>> Ever since reading about it, I have wondered why JKR should have felt
>> it necessary to reveal the future development of Hagrid's character
>> to Robbie Coltrane. I have only been able to come up with a romance
>> between Olympe Maxime and Hagrid after their very long visit to the
>> Giants. That, however, does seem to be a rather obvious possibility.
>> Hmm...

> The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
> So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.
> Dumbledore said "I would trust Hagrid with my life." (PS/SS, leaving
> Harry on the doorstep) I don't recall his ever saying that about
> Snape. Trust yes, but not "with my life". And Hagrid had complete
> responsibility for preparing the body, carrying it (totally covered)
> to the funeral, and at the last minute, doing something nobody could
> see. I speculate that Hagrid did something to prepare Dumbledore for
> a final transfiguration - which doesn't mean DD is alive. On the
> contrary - the alchemy information posted includes the detail that
> at the later stages the body becomes unimportant.

>>> Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
>>> wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
>>> and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
>>> and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
>>> of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
>>> surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.

> Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
> centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?

Sulphur/Red/Weasley, Mercury/Hermes/Granger, Salt/Potash/Potter?

Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!

Re: JK & research [message #243921 ]

So, 02 April 2006 00:08

Thomas Madura

wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
>
>>In article <122s45d9soi9p11 [at] corp.supernews.com>, dicconf [at] radix.net
>>(Richard Eney) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <cwlNOSPAM-2803061931000001 [at] o4da6.o.pppool.de>,
>>>Green-Eyed Chris <cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>>wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
>>>>>coincidental(?) they are:
>>>>>1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
>>>>>2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
>>>>>3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
>>>>>"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
>>>>>this quintessence of dust?"
>>>
>>>There's another line in that which comes to mind:
>>>"This majestical roof fretted with golden fire/
>>>Why it appears no other thing to me /
>>>Than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors"
>>>
>>>For some reason I am reminded of the ceiling of the Great Hall.
>>
>>I think that fits in very well.
>>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
>>>>>water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?)
>>>
>>>>JKR has said that the four houses ³correspond roughly to the four
>>>>elements.² Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth,
>>>>and Slytherin is water. I've never regarded that as a major hint.
>>>>Except for Pomona Sprout (Herbology) being Head of Hufflepuff House
>>>>and the Slytherin Dormitories being located partially under the lake,
>>>>I can think of no other connections.
>>>
>>>Potions are generally liquid.
>>>Luna (a Ravenclaw) is something of an airhead.
>>
>>LOL! So are you and Cassie. ;-) I say that affectionately because I feel
>>like a Hufflepuff with all of the airy theories in this thread. I'm glad
>>you two are around to explain them.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>>There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
>>>>>alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
>>>>>when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
>>>>>state in order for it to be reborn.
>>>>
>>>>If you're just going by first names, I can see anybody in the "Black"
>>>>family tree as being a candidate for that one. From Wikipedia:
>>>>
>>>>As with many Rowling characters, Sirius's name reveals part of his nature.
>>>>"Sirius Black" is a pun on his ability to turn into a giant black dog;
>>>>Sirius is the name of a star (the brightest one in the sky) which can be
>>>>found in the constellation Canis Major (the big dog). The star Sirius was
>>>>called "dog's star" by some ancient cultures such as the Egyptians. Most
>>>>(but not all) of Black's family is likewise named after stars (Bellatrix
>>>>is in the constellation of Orion; Regulus is in Leo. Andromeda is a
>>>>constellation in the northern hemisphere, as is Draco). "Black" is an
>>>>obvious reference to the colour of Sirius' canine alter ego.
>>>>
>>>>I know where you're trying to take us with "reborn" but, except as a
>>>>reference to Sirius' Animagus, it could just as well be Regulus,
>>>>Bellatrix or...
>>>
>>>The star Sirius has been observed since the times of Ancient Egypt
>>>to die (sink below the horizon) for the same length of time every year
>>>and be reborn (become visible above the horizon) again. It was part of
>>>several major religions. That's one good reason for associating it
>>>with Sirius.
>>
>>OK, I can buy that.
>>
>>
>>>>>The second stage is called "albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is
>>>>>the purification stage, the washing or purifying of the metal.
>>>>
>>>>I can only recall him ever having touched water swimming to/from the Cave.
>>>
>>>The other person who swims in that scene is Harry.
>>>
>>>Consider the possibility that the actions are represented by the characters
>>>with those names, but the substance on which they act is Harry.
>>
>>I'm trying but I think it would work better if I were drunk.
>>
>>
>>>Sirius Black dies mysteriously, and Harry is changed.
>>>Albus dies, not so mysteriously, and Harry is changed further.
>>>The final stage:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>The third stage is called the "rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?).
>>>>>This stage is called the "purification". During this chemical process,
>>>>>the body of the metal is resurrected and the purified metal has been
>>>>>transfigured into pure gold.
>>>
>>>Transfiguration is difficult and dangerous, as McGonagall tells the class
>>>on their first day. Dumbledore used to teach Transfiguration; he may
>>>have been the one who taught McGonagall. The more difficult forms
>>>involve self-transfiguration - a very risky thing to do, because
>>>if you do it entirely you lose the ability to change back, according
>>>to FBAWTFT. Krum partly transfigured himself in GoF, 2nd task.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ever since reading about it, I have wondered why JKR should have felt
>>>>it necessary to reveal the future development of Hagrid's character
>>>>to Robbie Coltrane. I have only been able to come up with a romance
>>>>between Olympe Maxime and Hagrid after their very long visit to the
>>>>Giants. That, however, does seem to be a rather obvious possibility.
>>>>Hmm...
>>>
>>>The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
>>>So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.
>>>Dumbledore said "I would trust Hagrid with my life." (PS/SS, leaving
>>>Harry on the doorstep) I don't recall his ever saying that about
>>>Snape. Trust yes, but not "with my life". And Hagrid had complete
>>>responsibility for preparing the body, carrying it (totally covered)
>>>to the funeral, and at the last minute, doing something nobody could
>>>see. I speculate that Hagrid did something to prepare Dumbledore for
>>>a final transfiguration - which doesn't mean DD is alive. On the
>>>contrary - the alchemy information posted includes the detail that
>>>at the later stages the body becomes unimportant.
>>
>>IIRC, Coltrane and Rickman were informed, presumably separately, before or
>>during the shooting of GoF. This leads me to believe that JKR was thinking
>>of something more long-term rather that something specific in movie 7.
>>
>>I don't have the DVD yet, but I do recall Hagrid's accentuated infatuation
>>with Olympe. Snape was very much changed in GoF, Rickman's few scenes
>>being dominated by concern for Harry's safety.
>>
>>1) The look he gives Harry, whose name has just come out of the Goblet,
>>can be described as neutral with a wisp of concern.
>>
>>2) When the dragon barely misses whopping Harry with his tail, there is a
>>very brief shot of McGonagall and Snape. His concern and shock is twice
>>that of Harry's Head of House and it is genuine.
>>
>>3) The scene where Harry and Ron are whacked on the head with a book is
>>played for comedy rather than hate. (Will Daniel ever learn not to laugh
>>before the punch-line?)
>>
>>4) When Snape accuses Harry of stealing from his storeroom, he is
>>surprisingly subdued.
>>
>>5) After Harry returns from the graveyard, Snape hears that a boy has
>>died. His face turns to panic and he immediately races to the scene.
>>
>>6) Snape protectively throws himself in front of Harry when Barty Crouch
>>Jr. lunges at him.
>>
>>Rickman's performance indicates to me that there is more to Snape's
>>concern for Harry's safety that just saving him for the Dark Lord,
>>although that option is still very much open.
>>
>>
>>>>>Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
>>>>>wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
>>>>>and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
>>>>>and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
>>>>>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
>>>>>surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
>>>
>>>Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
>>>centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?
>>
>>How do you do that? I could sniff a bottle of ether and not make those
>>associations.
>>--
>>Chris
>
>
>
> Good catch, Chris, on the Snape scenes. I really hope that the "Snape
> is not evil" group has its day! BTW, I noticed in another thread that
> you went to the Red Hen site. How did you like it? I haven't gotten
> through too many of the essays since they're so long, (and I don't
> necessarily agree with a few of them) but I found the site to be an
> interesting read.
>

Snape is a real hard one to pin down - for lots of ways. After Snape
protects Harry in the GOF Movie - he is left alone to watch Crouch as
well. He is the one person I am having a real problem with when it comes
to what will happen.

Re: JK & research [message #243922 ]

So, 02 April 2006 00:11

wadkin2000

Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
> Tamar wrote:
>
> > Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
>
> >> Wadkin 2000 wrote:
>
> >>> First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
> >>> coincidental(?) they are:
> >>> 1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
> >>> 2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
> >>> 3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
> >>> "The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
> >>> this quintessence of dust?"
>
> > There's another line in that which comes to mind:
> > "This majestical roof fretted with golden fire/
> > Why it appears no other thing to me /
> > Than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors"
>
> > For some reason I am reminded of the ceiling of the Great Hall.
>
> > <snip>
> >>> The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
> >>> water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?)
>
> >> JKR has said that the four houses =B3correspond roughly to the four
> >> elements.=B2 Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth,
> >> and Slytherin is water. I've never regarded that as a major hint.
> >> Except for Pomona Sprout (Herbology) being Head of Hufflepuff House
> >> and the Slytherin Dormitories being located partially under the lake,
> >> I can think of no other connections.
>
> > Potions are generally liquid.
> > Luna (a Ravenclaw) is something of an airhead.
>
> >>> and the minerals are sulfur, mercury, and salt.
> >>> The three minerals, when combined with the elements,
> >>> are the principal tools to effect the change of one
> >>> substance to another. Alchemy purifies a base metal ultimately
> >>> transfiguring it into pure gold, (felix felicis?) as well as the
> >>> purification of body & soul of the alchemist. Quintessence is the fin=
al
> >>> purest essence that remains by combining the above elements and
> >>> minerals. Quintessence becomes, in effect, the fifth element, the
> >>> purest essence, which is necessary for the alchemist to complete the
> >>> process of soul development.
> > <snip>
>
> >>> The symbol of two snakes joined together in alchemy is the uniting
> >>> symbol, the joining of opposites. In the book "Alchemy & Psychology",
> >>> there's a drawing of two men fighting, one with a snake and one with a
> >>> bird. In the middle is Hermes, messenger of the Gods, who is holding
> >>> two staffs. The staff that Hermes is holding is called a Caduceus and
> >>> it is entwined by two serpents. Their union is the coming together of
> >>> alchemical principles and the offspring (the purest essence) if it is
> >>> achieved, is the Stone. The stone is represented as a "golden ball wi=
th
> >>> wings" (what could that be?) at the top of the Caduceus.
>
> > Good catch.
>
> >>> There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
> >>> alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
> >>> when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
> >>> state in order for it to be reborn.
>
> >> If you're just going by first names, I can see anybody in the "Black"
> >> family tree as being a candidate for that one. From Wikipedia:
>
> >> As with many Rowling characters, Sirius's name reveals part of his
> >> nature. "Sirius Black" is a pun on his ability to turn into a giant
> >> black dog; Sirius is the name of a star (the brightest one in the sky)
> >> which can be found in the constellation Canis Major (the big dog). The
> >> star Sirius was called "dog's star" by some ancient cultures such as
> >> the Egyptians. Most (but not all) of Black's family is likewise named
> >> after stars (Bellatrix is in the constellation of Orion; Regulus is in
> >> Leo. Andromeda is a constellation in the northern hemisphere, as is
> >> Draco). "Black" is an obvious reference to the colour of Sirius' canine
> >> alter ego.
>
> >> I know where you're trying to take us with "reborn" but, except as a
> >> reference to Sirius' Animagus, it could just as well be Regulus,
> >> Bellatrix or...
>
> > The star Sirius has been observed since the times of Ancient Egypt
> > to die (sink below the horizon) for the same length of time every year
> > and be reborn (become visible above the horizon) again. It was part of
> > several major religions. That's one good reason for associating it
> > with Sirius.
>
> >>> The second stage is called "albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is
> >>> the purification stage, the washing or purifying of the metal.
>
> >> I can only recall him ever having touched water swimming to/from the
> > Cave.
>
> > The other person who swims in that scene is Harry.
>
> > Consider the possibility that the actions are represented by the
> > characters
> > with those names, but the substance on which they act is Harry.
> > Sirius Black dies mysteriously, and Harry is changed.
> > Albus dies, not so mysteriously, and Harry is changed further.
> > The final stage:
>
> >>> The third stage is called the "rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?).
> >>> This stage is called the "purification". During this chemical process,
> >>> the body of the metal is resurrected and the purified metal has been
> >>> transfigured into pure gold.
>
> > Transfiguration is difficult and dangerous, as McGonagall tells the cla=
ss
> > on their first day. Dumbledore used to teach Transfiguration; he may
> > have been the one who taught McGonagall. The more difficult forms
> > involve self-transfiguration - a very risky thing to do, because
> > if you do it entirely you lose the ability to change back, according
> > to FBAWTFT. Krum partly transfigured himself in GoF, 2nd task.
>
> >> Ever since reading about it, I have wondered why JKR should have felt
> >> it necessary to reveal the future development of Hagrid's character
> >> to Robbie Coltrane. I have only been able to come up with a romance
> >> between Olympe Maxime and Hagrid after their very long visit to the
> >> Giants. That, however, does seem to be a rather obvious possibility.
> >> Hmm...
>
> > The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
> > So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.
> > Dumbledore said "I would trust Hagrid with my life." (PS/SS, leaving
> > Harry on the doorstep) I don't recall his ever saying that about
> > Snape. Trust yes, but not "with my life". And Hagrid had complete
> > responsibility for preparing the body, carrying it (totally covered)
> > to the funeral, and at the last minute, doing something nobody could
> > see. I speculate that Hagrid did something to prepare Dumbledore for
> > a final transfiguration - which doesn't mean DD is alive. On the
> > contrary - the alchemy information posted includes the detail that
> > at the later stages the body becomes unimportant.
>
> >>> Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
> >>> wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
> >>> and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
> >>> and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
> >>> of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
> >>> surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Sal=
t=2E
>
> > Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
> > centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?
>
> Sulphur/Red/Weasley, Mercury/Hermes/Granger, Salt/Potash/Potter?
>
>
> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
>=20
> --=20
> Free Margaret Blaine now!

Oh, excellent, Blon!!!

Re: JK & research [message #243931 ]

So, 02 April 2006 01:41

cwlNOSPAM

In article <oqAXf.65496$dW3.62912 [at] newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, Kish
<Kish_K [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

>wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Good catch, Chris, on the Snape scenes. I really hope that the "Snape
>> is not evil" group has its day!
>
>Playing him like he actually likes Harry now--gaaaaah.

No, Kish. I just think it's obvious that Snape has great concern for
Harry's safety and might even be trying to save him for the Dark Lord. If
you saw something different I would certainly be interested to hear about
it. I always like to hear considered differing opinions.
--
Chris

Re: JK & research [message #243932 ]

So, 02 April 2006 01:40

cwlNOSPAM

In article <1143906445.781895.168740 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
>> In article <122s45d9soi9p11 [at] corp.supernews.com>, dicconf [at] radix.net
>> (Richard Eney) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <cwlNOSPAM-2803061931000001 [at] o4da6.o.pppool.de>,
>> >Green-Eyed Chris <cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de> wrote:
>> >>wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >>>First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
>> >>>coincidental(?) they are:
>> >>>1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
>> >>>2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
>> >>>3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
>> >>>"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
>> >>>this quintessence of dust?"
>> >
>> >There's another line in that which comes to mind:
>> >"This majestical roof fretted with golden fire/
>> >Why it appears no other thing to me /
>> >Than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors"
>> >
>> >For some reason I am reminded of the ceiling of the Great Hall.
>>
>> I think that fits in very well.
>>
>> >
>> ><snip>
>> >>> The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
>> >>>water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?)
>> >
>> >>JKR has said that the four houses =B3correspond roughly to the four
>> >>elements.=B2 Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth,
>> >>and Slytherin is water. I've never regarded that as a major hint.
>> >>Except for Pomona Sprout (Herbology) being Head of Hufflepuff House
>> >>and the Slytherin Dormitories being located partially under the lake,
>> >>I can think of no other connections.
>> >
>> >Potions are generally liquid.
>> >Luna (a Ravenclaw) is something of an airhead.
>>
>> LOL! So are you and Cassie. ;-) I say that affectionately because I feel
>> like a Hufflepuff with all of the airy theories in this thread. I'm glad
>> you two are around to explain them.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> >
>> >>>There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
>> >>>alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
>> >>>when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
>> >>>state in order for it to be reborn.
>> >>
>> >>If you're just going by first names, I can see anybody in the "Black"
>> >>family tree as being a candidate for that one. From Wikipedia:
>> >>
>> >>As with many Rowling characters, Sirius's name reveals part of his natu=
>re.
>> >>"Sirius Black" is a pun on his ability to turn into a giant black dog;
>> >>Sirius is the name of a star (the brightest one in the sky) which can be
>> >>found in the constellation Canis Major (the big dog). The star Sirius w=
>as
>> >>called "dog's star" by some ancient cultures such as the Egyptians. Most
>> >>(but not all) of Black's family is likewise named after stars (Bellatrix
>> >>is in the constellation of Orion; Regulus is in Leo. Andromeda is a
>> >>constellation in the northern hemisphere, as is Draco). "Black" is an
>> >>obvious reference to the colour of Sirius' canine alter ego.
>> >>
>> >>I know where you're trying to take us with "reborn" but, except as a
>> >>reference to Sirius' Animagus, it could just as well be Regulus,
>> >>Bellatrix or...
>> >
>> >The star Sirius has been observed since the times of Ancient Egypt
>> >to die (sink below the horizon) for the same length of time every year
>> >and be reborn (become visible above the horizon) again. It was part of
>> >several major religions. That's one good reason for associating it
>> >with Sirius.
>>
>> OK, I can buy that.
>>
>> >
>> >>>The second stage is called "albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is
>> >>>the purification stage, the washing or purifying of the metal.
>> >>
>> >>I can only recall him ever having touched water swimming to/from the Ca=
>ve.
>> >
>> >The other person who swims in that scene is Harry.
>> >
>> >Consider the possibility that the actions are represented by the charact=
>ers
>> >with those names, but the substance on which they act is Harry.
>>
>> I'm trying but I think it would work better if I were drunk.
>>
>> >Sirius Black dies mysteriously, and Harry is changed.
>> >Albus dies, not so mysteriously, and Harry is changed further.
>> >The final stage:
>> >
>> >>>The third stage is called the "rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?).
>> >>>This stage is called the "purification". During this chemical process,
>> >>>the body of the metal is resurrected and the purified metal has been
>> >>>transfigured into pure gold.
>> >
>> >Transfiguration is difficult and dangerous, as McGonagall tells the class
>> >on their first day. Dumbledore used to teach Transfiguration; he may
>> >have been the one who taught McGonagall. The more difficult forms
>> >involve self-transfiguration - a very risky thing to do, because
>> >if you do it entirely you lose the ability to change back, according
>> >to FBAWTFT. Krum partly transfigured himself in GoF, 2nd task.
>> >
>> >>Ever since reading about it, I have wondered why JKR should have felt
>> >>it necessary to reveal the future development of Hagrid's character
>> >>to Robbie Coltrane. I have only been able to come up with a romance
>> >>between Olympe Maxime and Hagrid after their very long visit to the
>> >>Giants. That, however, does seem to be a rather obvious possibility.
>> >>Hmm...
>> >
>> >The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
>> >So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.
>> >Dumbledore said "I would trust Hagrid with my life." (PS/SS, leaving
>> >Harry on the doorstep) I don't recall his ever saying that about
>> >Snape. Trust yes, but not "with my life". And Hagrid had complete
>> >responsibility for preparing the body, carrying it (totally covered)
>> >to the funeral, and at the last minute, doing something nobody could
>> >see. I speculate that Hagrid did something to prepare Dumbledore for
>> >a final transfiguration - which doesn't mean DD is alive. On the
>> >contrary - the alchemy information posted includes the detail that
>> >at the later stages the body becomes unimportant.
>>
>> IIRC, Coltrane and Rickman were informed, presumably separately, before or
>> during the shooting of GoF. This leads me to believe that JKR was thinking
>> of something more long-term rather that something specific in movie 7.
>>
>> I don't have the DVD yet, but I do recall Hagrid's accentuated infatuation
>> with Olympe. Snape was very much changed in GoF, Rickman's few scenes
>> being dominated by concern for Harry's safety.
>>
>> 1) The look he gives Harry, whose name has just come out of the Goblet,
>> can be described as neutral with a wisp of concern.
>>
>> 2) When the dragon barely misses whopping Harry with his tail, there is a
>> very brief shot of McGonagall and Snape. His concern and shock is twice
>> that of Harry's Head of House and it is genuine.
>>
>> 3) The scene where Harry and Ron are whacked on the head with a book is
>> played for comedy rather than hate. (Will Daniel ever learn not to laugh
>> before the punch-line?)
>>
>> 4) When Snape accuses Harry of stealing from his storeroom, he is
>> surprisingly subdued.
>>
>> 5) After Harry returns from the graveyard, Snape hears that a boy has
>> died. His face turns to panic and he immediately races to the scene.
>>
>> 6) Snape protectively throws himself in front of Harry when Barty Crouch
>> Jr. lunges at him.
>>
>> Rickman's performance indicates to me that there is more to Snape's
>> concern for Harry's safety that just saving him for the Dark Lord,
>> although that option is still very much open.
>>
>> >
>> >>>Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
>> >>>wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
>> >>>and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
>> >>>and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
>> >>>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
>> >>>surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
>> >
>> >Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
>> >centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?
>>
>> How do you do that? I could sniff a bottle of ether and not make those
>> associations.
>> --
>> Chris
>
>
>Ahhh, Chris...All you need is a couple of glasses of wine, a couple of
>sniffs of ether, and (well, this is a public newsgroup-won't mention
>the third task!) to achieve "eternal glory"(GOF): the understanding of
>all of the above!

Anticipating your third task, I am certain that one further sniff would
suffice to land me in the Janus Thickey Ward for all eternity (...with a
perpetual smile upon my face)! ;-p

Copying and pasting back to the future:

"BTW Chris, really good catches on the Snape scenes! I sincerely hope
that the "Snape is not evil" group will "have their day!" I also
noticed in another thread, that you went to the red hen site. What did
you think of it? I was able to get through about a quarter of them so
far since they're long. Sent you a email about it, but it got bounced
back."

I find no other way to view the Snape scenes. I was working with the
memory of a pirated German DVD that was forced upon me. I am looking
forward to hearing Rickman's voice for possible further hints.

An ickle piece of me has just fragmented itself at the thought of what
might have been but for your airiheadedness. The next time you might feel
the urge to send me an email, consider removing the "NOSPAM" from
"cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de". But you're in good company. Pamela Anderson hasn't
figured it out either (the poor twisted child).

Redhen-publications is certainly good for new ideas and approaches but, on
the whole, very uneconomical. I've only read 4 articles thoroughly and
estimate a net gain of one viable new insight for every 7 minutes of
reading. The authors are always trying to cover their backsides with every
word. Basically, I find that I prefer the alt.fan.harry-potter approach.
Throw your thoughts out there, risk getting a standard answer, a bite from
one of the watchdogs or even total disinterest.

I once took the time to register at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

It looked good at the moment, but I still haven't found the time to deal
with their "Humongous Bigfile".
--
Chris

Re: JK & research [message #243935 ]

So, 02 April 2006 02:26

wadkin2000

Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> In article <1143906445.781895.168740 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> >> In article <122s45d9soi9p11 [at] corp.supernews.com>, dicconf [at] radix.net
> >> (Richard Eney) wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <cwlNOSPAM-2803061931000001 [at] o4da6.o.pppool.de>,
> >> >Green-Eyed Chris <cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de> wrote:
> >> >>wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >> ><snip>
> >> >
> >> >>>First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
> >> >>>coincidental(?) they are:
> >> >>>1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
> >> >>>2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
> >> >>>3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
> >> >>>"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
> >> >>>this quintessence of dust?"
> >> >
> >> >There's another line in that which comes to mind:
> >> >"This majestical roof fretted with golden fire/
> >> >Why it appears no other thing to me /
> >> >Than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors"
> >> >
> >> >For some reason I am reminded of the ceiling of the Great Hall.
> >>
> >> I think that fits in very well.
> >>
> >> >
> >> ><snip>
> >> >>> The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
> >> >>>water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?)
> >> >
> >> >>JKR has said that the four houses =B3correspond roughly to the four
> >> >>elements.=B2 Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth,
> >> >>and Slytherin is water. I've never regarded that as a major hint.
> >> >>Except for Pomona Sprout (Herbology) being Head of Hufflepuff House
> >> >>and the Slytherin Dormitories being located partially under the lake,
> >> >>I can think of no other connections.
> >> >
> >> >Potions are generally liquid.
> >> >Luna (a Ravenclaw) is something of an airhead.
> >>
> >> LOL! So are you and Cassie. ;-) I say that affectionately because I feel
> >> like a Hufflepuff with all of the airy theories in this thread. I'm glad
> >> you two are around to explain them.
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>>There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
> >> >>>alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
> >> >>>when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
> >> >>>state in order for it to be reborn.
> >> >>
> >> >>If you're just going by first names, I can see anybody in the "Black"
> >> >>family tree as being a candidate for that one. From Wikipedia:
> >> >>
> >> >>As with many Rowling characters, Sirius's name reveals part of his natu=
> >re.
> >> >>"Sirius Black" is a pun on his ability to turn into a giant black dog;
> >> >>Sirius is the name of a star (the brightest one in the sky) which can be
> >> >>found in the constellation Canis Major (the big dog). The star Sirius w=
> >as
> >> >>called "dog's star" by some ancient cultures such as the Egyptians. Most
> >> >>(but not all) of Black's family is likewise named after stars (Bellatrix
> >> >>is in the constellation of Orion; Regulus is in Leo. Andromeda is a
> >> >>constellation in the northern hemisphere, as is Draco). "Black" is an
> >> >>obvious reference to the colour of Sirius' canine alter ego.
> >> >>
> >> >>I know where you're trying to take us with "reborn" but, except as a
> >> >>reference to Sirius' Animagus, it could just as well be Regulus,
> >> >>Bellatrix or...
> >> >
> >> >The star Sirius has been observed since the times of Ancient Egypt
> >> >to die (sink below the horizon) for the same length of time every year
> >> >and be reborn (become visible above the horizon) again. It was part of
> >> >several major religions. That's one good reason for associating it
> >> >with Sirius.
> >>
> >> OK, I can buy that.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>>The second stage is called "albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is
> >> >>>the purification stage, the washing or purifying of the metal.
> >> >>
> >> >>I can only recall him ever having touched water swimming to/from the Ca=
> >ve.
> >> >
> >> >The other person who swims in that scene is Harry.
> >> >
> >> >Consider the possibility that the actions are represented by the charact=
> >ers
> >> >with those names, but the substance on which they act is Harry.
> >>
> >> I'm trying but I think it would work better if I were drunk.
> >>
> >> >Sirius Black dies mysteriously, and Harry is changed.
> >> >Albus dies, not so mysteriously, and Harry is changed further.
> >> >The final stage:
> >> >
> >> >>>The third stage is called the "rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?).
> >> >>>This stage is called the "purification". During this chemical process,
> >> >>>the body of the metal is resurrected and the purified metal has been
> >> >>>transfigured into pure gold.
> >> >
> >> >Transfiguration is difficult and dangerous, as McGonagall tells the class
> >> >on their first day. Dumbledore used to teach Transfiguration; he may
> >> >have been the one who taught McGonagall. The more difficult forms
> >> >involve self-transfiguration - a very risky thing to do, because
> >> >if you do it entirely you lose the ability to change back, according
> >> >to FBAWTFT. Krum partly transfigured himself in GoF, 2nd task.
> >> >
> >> >>Ever since reading about it, I have wondered why JKR should have felt
> >> >>it necessary to reveal the future development of Hagrid's character
> >> >>to Robbie Coltrane. I have only been able to come up with a romance
> >> >>between Olympe Maxime and Hagrid after their very long visit to the
> >> >>Giants. That, however, does seem to be a rather obvious possibility.
> >> >>Hmm...
> >> >
> >> >The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
> >> >So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.
> >> >Dumbledore said "I would trust Hagrid with my life." (PS/SS, leaving
> >> >Harry on the doorstep) I don't recall his ever saying that about
> >> >Snape. Trust yes, but not "with my life". And Hagrid had complete
> >> >responsibility for preparing the body, carrying it (totally covered)
> >> >to the funeral, and at the last minute, doing something nobody could
> >> >see. I speculate that Hagrid did something to prepare Dumbledore for
> >> >a final transfiguration - which doesn't mean DD is alive. On the
> >> >contrary - the alchemy information posted includes the detail that
> >> >at the later stages the body becomes unimportant.
> >>
> >> IIRC, Coltrane and Rickman were informed, presumably separately, before or
> >> during the shooting of GoF. This leads me to believe that JKR was thinking
> >> of something more long-term rather that something specific in movie 7.
> >>
> >> I don't have the DVD yet, but I do recall Hagrid's accentuated infatuation
> >> with Olympe. Snape was very much changed in GoF, Rickman's few scenes
> >> being dominated by concern for Harry's safety.
> >>
> >> 1) The look he gives Harry, whose name has just come out of the Goblet,
> >> can be described as neutral with a wisp of concern.
> >>
> >> 2) When the dragon barely misses whopping Harry with his tail, there is a
> >> very brief shot of McGonagall and Snape. His concern and shock is twice
> >> that of Harry's Head of House and it is genuine.
> >>
> >> 3) The scene where Harry and Ron are whacked on the head with a book is
> >> played for comedy rather than hate. (Will Daniel ever learn not to laugh
> >> before the punch-line?)
> >>
> >> 4) When Snape accuses Harry of stealing from his storeroom, he is
> >> surprisingly subdued.
> >>
> >> 5) After Harry returns from the graveyard, Snape hears that a boy has
> >> died. His face turns to panic and he immediately races to the scene.
> >>
> >> 6) Snape protectively throws himself in front of Harry when Barty Crouch
> >> Jr. lunges at him.
> >>
> >> Rickman's performance indicates to me that there is more to Snape's
> >> concern for Harry's safety that just saving him for the Dark Lord,
> >> although that option is still very much open.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>>Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
> >> >>>wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
> >> >>>and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
> >> >>>and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
> >> >>>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
> >> >>>surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
> >> >
> >> >Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
> >> >centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?
> >>
> >> How do you do that? I could sniff a bottle of ether and not make those
> >> associations.
> >> --
> >> Chris
> >
> >
> >Ahhh, Chris...All you need is a couple of glasses of wine, a couple of
> >sniffs of ether, and (well, this is a public newsgroup-won't mention
> >the third task!) to achieve "eternal glory"(GOF): the understanding of
> >all of the above!
>
> Anticipating your third task, I am certain that one further sniff would
> suffice to land me in the Janus Thickey Ward for all eternity (...with a
> perpetual smile upon my face)! ;-p
>
> Copying and pasting back to the future:
>
> "BTW Chris, really good catches on the Snape scenes! I sincerely hope
> that the "Snape is not evil" group will "have their day!" I also
> noticed in another thread, that you went to the red hen site. What did
> you think of it? I was able to get through about a quarter of them so
> far since they're long. Sent you a email about it, but it got bounced
> back."
>
> I find no other way to view the Snape scenes. I was working with the
> memory of a pirated German DVD that was forced upon me. I am looking
> forward to hearing Rickman's voice for possible further hints.
>
> An ickle piece of me has just fragmented itself at the thought of what
> might have been but for your airiheadedness. The next time you might feel
> the urge to send me an email, consider removing the "NOSPAM" from
> "cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de". But you're in good company. Pamela Anderson hasn't
> figured it out either (the poor twisted child).
>
> Redhen-publications is certainly good for new ideas and approaches but, on
> the whole, very uneconomical. I've only read 4 articles thoroughly and
> estimate a net gain of one viable new insight for every 7 minutes of
> reading. The authors are always trying to cover their backsides with every
> word. Basically, I find that I prefer the alt.fan.harry-potter approach.
> Throw your thoughts out there, risk getting a standard answer, a bite from
> one of the watchdogs or even total disinterest.
>
> I once took the time to register at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
>
> It looked good at the moment, but I still haven't found the time to deal
> with their "Humongous Bigfile".
> --
> Chris

That's the second time in one thread the term "airhead" has been used.
I'm starting to get a complex. Hermione Granger, remember?? And as an
fyi, the second one got bounced as well!!

Re: JK & research [message #243937 ]

So, 02 April 2006 02:29

Blon Fel Fotch Passam

Wadkin2000 wrote:

> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

>> Tamar wrote:

>>> Green-Eyed Chris wrote:

>>>> the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt

>>> Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur, centaur for mercury
>>> (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?

>> Sulphur/Red/Weasley, Mercury/Hermes/Granger, Salt/Potash/Potter?

> Oh, excellent, Blon!!!

Thanks, Cassie!

Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!

Re: JK & research [message #243940 ]

So, 02 April 2006 02:35

Lady Grey

wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
<snip>
> IMO, when DD says "in essence divided?" it means that for now the

i think it is posible DD asked this in order to determine whether harry
was made a horcrux the night harry was killed. if in essence they are
divided then the soulbit in harry does not bind LV to the mortal world,
i.e it does not function as a horcrux, it is just an errant soul bit
suppling harry with the goodies on LV. the intrumented showed a divided
snake, so saying that harry is not a horcrux....

or DD was trying to find out whether Nagini was a horcrux (alreading
being aware that harry has LV's soulbit in him) and the snake splitting
in two means there were 2 divides in LV's essence present in Nagini
that night Arthur got attacked..

anyways Cassie, i think it is more likely to have been about soul bits
than the yin/yang stuff you were postulating about...

--
Jane Grey

Re: JK & research [message #243941 ]

So, 02 April 2006 02:38

wadkin2000

Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> In article <1143906445.781895.168740 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> >> In article <122s45d9soi9p11 [at] corp.supernews.com>, dicconf [at] radix.net
> >> (Richard Eney) wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <cwlNOSPAM-2803061931000001 [at] o4da6.o.pppool.de>,
> >> >Green-Eyed Chris <cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de> wrote:
> >> >>wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >> ><snip>
> >> >
> >> >>>First, I'll list some facts and I think you'll see how extremely
> >> >>>coincidental(?) they are:
> >> >>>1. Thomas (Tom Riddle) means "twin" in Aramaic.
> >> >>>2. In HBP JK has Harry reading a book, "Quintessence - Quest" (Ch.15)
> >> >>>3. JK is familiar with Shakespeare and there's a soliloquy in Hamlet:
> >> >>>"The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet to me what is
> >> >>>this quintessence of dust?"
> >> >
> >> >There's another line in that which comes to mind:
> >> >"This majestical roof fretted with golden fire/
> >> >Why it appears no other thing to me /
> >> >Than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors"
> >> >
> >> >For some reason I am reminded of the ceiling of the Great Hall.
> >>
> >> I think that fits in very well.
> >>
> >> >
> >> ><snip>
> >> >>> The four major elements of alchemy are fire, air,
> >> >>>water, and earth (correspond with anything familiar?)
> >> >
> >> >>JKR has said that the four houses =B3correspond roughly to the four
> >> >>elements.=B2 Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth,
> >> >>and Slytherin is water. I've never regarded that as a major hint.
> >> >>Except for Pomona Sprout (Herbology) being Head of Hufflepuff House
> >> >>and the Slytherin Dormitories being located partially under the lake,
> >> >>I can think of no other connections.
> >> >
> >> >Potions are generally liquid.
> >> >Luna (a Ravenclaw) is something of an airhead.
> >>
> >> LOL! So are you and Cassie. ;-) I say that affectionately because I feel
> >> like a Hufflepuff with all of the airy theories in this thread. I'm glad
> >> you two are around to explain them.
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>>There are three stages (each has a series of different operations) in
> >> >>>alchemy. The first is called "nigredo" or "black" (Sirius?). This is
> >> >>>when the impure metal has to be killed and dissolved to its original
> >> >>>state in order for it to be reborn.
> >> >>
> >> >>If you're just going by first names, I can see anybody in the "Black"
> >> >>family tree as being a candidate for that one. From Wikipedia:
> >> >>
> >> >>As with many Rowling characters, Sirius's name reveals part of his natu=
> >re.
> >> >>"Sirius Black" is a pun on his ability to turn into a giant black dog;
> >> >>Sirius is the name of a star (the brightest one in the sky) which can be
> >> >>found in the constellation Canis Major (the big dog). The star Sirius w=
> >as
> >> >>called "dog's star" by some ancient cultures such as the Egyptians. Most
> >> >>(but not all) of Black's family is likewise named after stars (Bellatrix
> >> >>is in the constellation of Orion; Regulus is in Leo. Andromeda is a
> >> >>constellation in the northern hemisphere, as is Draco). "Black" is an
> >> >>obvious reference to the colour of Sirius' canine alter ego.
> >> >>
> >> >>I know where you're trying to take us with "reborn" but, except as a
> >> >>reference to Sirius' Animagus, it could just as well be Regulus,
> >> >>Bellatrix or...
> >> >
> >> >The star Sirius has been observed since the times of Ancient Egypt
> >> >to die (sink below the horizon) for the same length of time every year
> >> >and be reborn (become visible above the horizon) again. It was part of
> >> >several major religions. That's one good reason for associating it
> >> >with Sirius.
> >>
> >> OK, I can buy that.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>>The second stage is called "albedo" or "white" (Albus?). This is
> >> >>>the purification stage, the washing or purifying of the metal.
> >> >>
> >> >>I can only recall him ever having touched water swimming to/from the Ca=
> >ve.
> >> >
> >> >The other person who swims in that scene is Harry.
> >> >
> >> >Consider the possibility that the actions are represented by the charact=
> >ers
> >> >with those names, but the substance on which they act is Harry.
> >>
> >> I'm trying but I think it would work better if I were drunk.
> >>
> >> >Sirius Black dies mysteriously, and Harry is changed.
> >> >Albus dies, not so mysteriously, and Harry is changed further.
> >> >The final stage:
> >> >
> >> >>>The third stage is called the "rubedo" or "red" (Rubeus Hagrid?).
> >> >>>This stage is called the "purification". During this chemical process,
> >> >>>the body of the metal is resurrected and the purified metal has been
> >> >>>transfigured into pure gold.
> >> >
> >> >Transfiguration is difficult and dangerous, as McGonagall tells the class
> >> >on their first day. Dumbledore used to teach Transfiguration; he may
> >> >have been the one who taught McGonagall. The more difficult forms
> >> >involve self-transfiguration - a very risky thing to do, because
> >> >if you do it entirely you lose the ability to change back, according
> >> >to FBAWTFT. Krum partly transfigured himself in GoF, 2nd task.
> >> >
> >> >>Ever since reading about it, I have wondered why JKR should have felt
> >> >>it necessary to reveal the future development of Hagrid's character
> >> >>to Robbie Coltrane. I have only been able to come up with a romance
> >> >>between Olympe Maxime and Hagrid after their very long visit to the
> >> >>Giants. That, however, does seem to be a rather obvious possibility.
> >> >>Hmm...
> >> >
> >> >The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
> >> >So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.
> >> >Dumbledore said "I would trust Hagrid with my life." (PS/SS, leaving
> >> >Harry on the doorstep) I don't recall his ever saying that about
> >> >Snape. Trust yes, but not "with my life". And Hagrid had complete
> >> >responsibility for preparing the body, carrying it (totally covered)
> >> >to the funeral, and at the last minute, doing something nobody could
> >> >see. I speculate that Hagrid did something to prepare Dumbledore for
> >> >a final transfiguration - which doesn't mean DD is alive. On the
> >> >contrary - the alchemy information posted includes the detail that
> >> >at the later stages the body becomes unimportant.
> >>
> >> IIRC, Coltrane and Rickman were informed, presumably separately, before or
> >> during the shooting of GoF. This leads me to believe that JKR was thinking
> >> of something more long-term rather that something specific in movie 7.
> >>
> >> I don't have the DVD yet, but I do recall Hagrid's accentuated infatuation
> >> with Olympe. Snape was very much changed in GoF, Rickman's few scenes
> >> being dominated by concern for Harry's safety.
> >>
> >> 1) The look he gives Harry, whose name has just come out of the Goblet,
> >> can be described as neutral with a wisp of concern.
> >>
> >> 2) When the dragon barely misses whopping Harry with his tail, there is a
> >> very brief shot of McGonagall and Snape. His concern and shock is twice
> >> that of Harry's Head of House and it is genuine.
> >>
> >> 3) The scene where Harry and Ron are whacked on the head with a book is
> >> played for comedy rather than hate. (Will Daniel ever learn not to laugh
> >> before the punch-line?)
> >>
> >> 4) When Snape accuses Harry of stealing from his storeroom, he is
> >> surprisingly subdued.
> >>
> >> 5) After Harry returns from the graveyard, Snape hears that a boy has
> >> died. His face turns to panic and he immediately races to the scene.
> >>
> >> 6) Snape protectively throws himself in front of Harry when Barty Crouch
> >> Jr. lunges at him.
> >>
> >> Rickman's performance indicates to me that there is more to Snape's
> >> concern for Harry's safety that just saving him for the Dark Lord,
> >> although that option is still very much open.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>>Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
> >> >>>wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
> >> >>>and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
> >> >>>and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
> >> >>>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
> >> >>>surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
> >> >
> >> >Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
> >> >centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?
> >>
> >> How do you do that? I could sniff a bottle of ether and not make those
> >> associations.
> >> --
> >> Chris
> >
> >
> >Ahhh, Chris...All you need is a couple of glasses of wine, a couple of
> >sniffs of ether, and (well, this is a public newsgroup-won't mention
> >the third task!) to achieve "eternal glory"(GOF): the understanding of
> >all of the above!
>
> Anticipating your third task, I am certain that one further sniff would
> suffice to land me in the Janus Thickey Ward for all eternity (...with a
> perpetual smile upon my face)! ;-p
>
> Copying and pasting back to the future:
>
> "BTW Chris, really good catches on the Snape scenes! I sincerely hope
> that the "Snape is not evil" group will "have their day!" I also
> noticed in another thread, that you went to the red hen site. What did
> you think of it? I was able to get through about a quarter of them so
> far since they're long. Sent you a email about it, but it got bounced
> back."
>
> I find no other way to view the Snape scenes. I was working with the
> memory of a pirated German DVD that was forced upon me. I am looking
> forward to hearing Rickman's voice for possible further hints.
>
> An ickle piece of me has just fragmented itself at the thought of what
> might have been but for your airiheadedness. The next time you might feel
> the urge to send me an email, consider removing the "NOSPAM" from
> "cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de". But you're in good company. Pamela Anderson hasn't
> figured it out either (the poor twisted child).
>
> Redhen-publications is certainly good for new ideas and approaches but, on
> the whole, very uneconomical. I've only read 4 articles thoroughly and
> estimate a net gain of one viable new insight for every 7 minutes of
> reading. The authors are always trying to cover their backsides with every
> word. Basically, I find that I prefer the alt.fan.harry-potter approach.
> Throw your thoughts out there, risk getting a standard answer, a bite from
> one of the watchdogs or even total disinterest.
>
> I once took the time to register at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
>
> It looked good at the moment, but I still haven't found the time to deal
> with their "Humongous Bigfile".
> --
> Chris

That's the second time in one thread the term "airhead" has been
applied to moi. I'm beginning to get a complex! I do agree with you
about red hen, though. It's good to get different approaches to a
topic, but you are right about trying to hit all angles of a theory. On
occasion, I've looked at some of the other HP groups, and, IMO, they
don't come close to the level of this one.

Cassie
(the originator of the "what might have been" theory)(even tho a second
correct attempt was bounced back!)

Re: JK & research [message #243943 ]

So, 02 April 2006 02:59

wadkin2000

Jane Grey wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> <snip>
> > IMO, when DD says "in essence divided?" it means that for now the
>
> i think it is posible DD asked this in order to determine whether harry
> was made a horcrux the night harry was killed. if in essence they are
> divided then the soulbit in harry does not bind LV to the mortal world,
> i.e it does not function as a horcrux, it is just an errant soul bit
> suppling harry with the goodies on LV. the intrumented showed a divided
> snake, so saying that harry is not a horcrux....
>
> or DD was trying to find out whether Nagini was a horcrux (alreading
> being aware that harry has LV's soulbit in him) and the snake splitting
> in two means there were 2 divides in LV's essence present in Nagini
> that night Arthur got attacked..
>
> anyways Cassie, i think it is more likely to have been about soul bits
> than the yin/yang stuff you were postulating about...
>
> --
> Jane Grey

You could definitely be right. I only mentioned the above connection
since I knew JK was familiar with the classics as well as "some"
knowledge of alchemy. Once I started digging deeper, I found the
similarities fascinating. By no means am I saying that this theory is
unequivocally symbolized in HP, but I did find it very coincidental and
intriguing.

Re: JK & research [message #243948 ]

So, 02 April 2006 08:07

dicconf

In article <1143916399.571661.274530 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
<wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> <snip>
>> >> In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
>> >>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
>> >>surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
>>
>> Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
>> centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?
>>
>> =Tamar

>I think you're probably right about the centaur/mercury connection.
>In alchemy, Mercury is the most important mineral. It contains and
>unifies duality, just as Hermes is a symbol of unification in mythology
>as well. Interestingly, the centaur in astrology symbolizes man's dual
>nature.
>
>As for the goblin and house elf, I don't know. Generally, salt is
>supposed to be a symbol for knowledge and wisdom and sulfur, the symbol
>for omnipresence, the spirit of life.

I was going with sulfur under its old name of brimstone, associated with
demonic beings from the depths - goblins are tunnellers and not very
pleasant. Wheres house elves are associated with food and are more
like gnome (earth spirits) and are hard workers (Hufflepuff/Earth).

=Tamar

Re: JK & research [message #243950 ]

So, 02 April 2006 08:09

dicconf

Wadkin2000 wrote:
> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
>> Tamar wrote:
>>> Green-Eyed Chris wrote:

>>>> the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt
>>>
>>> Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur, centaur for mercury
>>> (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?
>>
>> Sulphur/Red/Weasley, Mercury/Hermes/Granger, Salt/Potash/Potter?
>
> Oh, excellent, Blon!!!

Yes, very neat indeed. (Why do I keep thinking Sulfur is yellow?)

=Tamar

Re: JK & research [message #243951 ]

So, 02 April 2006 08:20

dicconf

In article <cwlNOSPAM-0104061201540001 [at] o51ec.o.pppool.de>,
Green-Eyed Chris <cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de> wrote:
> dicconf [at] radix.net (Richard Eney) wrote:
<snip>

>>The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
>>So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.
>>Dumbledore said "I would trust Hagrid with my life." (PS/SS, leaving
>>Harry on the doorstep) I don't recall his ever saying that about
>>Snape. Trust yes, but not "with my life". And Hagrid had complete
>>responsibility for preparing the body, carrying it (totally covered)
>>to the funeral, and at the last minute, doing something nobody could
>>see. I speculate that Hagrid did something to prepare Dumbledore for
>>a final transfiguration - which doesn't mean DD is alive. On the
>>contrary - the alchemy information posted includes the detail that
>>at the later stages the body becomes unimportant.
>
>IIRC, Coltrane and Rickman were informed, presumably separately, before or
>during the shooting of GoF. This leads me to believe that JKR was thinking
>of something more long-term rather that something specific in movie 7.

I think you mean movie 4.

>I don't have the DVD yet, but I do recall Hagrid's accentuated infatuation
>with Olympe. Snape was very much changed in GoF, Rickman's few scenes
>being dominated by concern for Harry's safety.

That is an impressive series of examples.

>3) The scene where Harry and Ron are whacked on the head with a book is
>played for comedy rather than hate. (Will Daniel ever learn not to laugh
>before the punch-line?)

Just a quibble - I don't remember a book being used, I remember Snape
grabbing both of them by the back of the neck and shoving their heads
face down to the table/desk.

>4) When Snape accuses Harry of stealing from his storeroom, he is
>surprisingly subdued.

I took that as being more impressively quiet than ranting.

>6) Snape protectively throws himself in front of Harry when Barty
>Crouch Jr. lunges at him.

Even as he did in the movie version of PoA...

>Rickman's performance indicates to me that there is more to Snape's
>concern for Harry's safety that just saving him for the Dark Lord,
>although that option is still very much open.

Possibly. I am in the Snape-has-plans-of-his-own camp, and Harry
is very important to those plans.

>>>>Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
>>>>wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
>>>>and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
>>>>and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
>>>>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
>>>>surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
>>
>>Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
>>centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?
>
>How do you do that? I could sniff a bottle of ether and not make those
>associations.

Practice...

Goblins are tunnellers and rather sinister. Sulfur = brimstone = demonic
associations. Whereas house elves are usually associated with trustworthiness
(salt of the earth) and they are cooks, also associated with salt.

=Tamar

Re: JK & research [message #243954 ]

So, 02 April 2006 08:56

Kish

Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> In article <oqAXf.65496$dW3.62912 [at] newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, Kish
> <Kish_K [at] pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>>wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Good catch, Chris, on the Snape scenes. I really hope that the "Snape
>>>is not evil" group has its day!
>>
>>Playing him like he actually likes Harry now--gaaaaah.
>
>
> No, Kish. I just think it's obvious that Snape has great concern for
> Harry's safety and might even be trying to save him for the Dark Lord. If
> you saw something different I would certainly be interested to hear about
> it.

I haven't seen the movie yet; I was going on what you said.

> 1) The look he gives Harry, whose name has just come out of the Goblet,
>> can be described as neutral with a wisp of concern.
>>
>> 2) When the dragon barely misses whopping Harry with his tail, there is a
>> very brief shot of McGonagall and Snape. His concern and shock is twice
>> that of Harry's Head of House and it is genuine.
>>
>> 3) The scene where Harry and Ron are whacked on the head with a book is
>> played for comedy rather than hate. (Will Daniel ever learn not to laugh
>> before the punch-line?)
>>
>> 4) When Snape accuses Harry of stealing from his storeroom, he is
>> surprisingly subdued.

Whatever is going on with Snape in the books, he loathes Harry
personally--I hope we can agree on that. On one level, perhaps, he may
want to protect him, feel obligated to protect him as his teacher, or be
afraid he may die because the hope of the world will die with him.
However....From what you're saying, it sounds like "Snape actually does
personally hate Harry" is not present in the Goblet of Fire movie. If
his attitude toward Harry is shown as mixed, by all means, tell me (or
wait for me to rent the movie and watch it, of course). My perception
of your post is that he comes off more like he thinks he's Harry's
godfather.

Re: JK & research [message #243976 ]

So, 02 April 2006 16:09

cwlNOSPAM

In article <122ur9krhpgca68 [at] corp.supernews.com>, dicconf [at] radix.net
(Richard Eney) wrote:

>In article <cwlNOSPAM-0104061201540001 [at] o51ec.o.pppool.de>,
>Green-Eyed Chris <cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de> wrote:
>> dicconf [at] radix.net (Richard Eney) wrote:
><snip>
>
>>>The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
>>>So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.
>>>Dumbledore said "I would trust Hagrid with my life." (PS/SS, leaving
>>>Harry on the doorstep) I don't recall his ever saying that about
>>>Snape. Trust yes, but not "with my life". And Hagrid had complete
>>>responsibility for preparing the body, carrying it (totally covered)
>>>to the funeral, and at the last minute, doing something nobody could
>>>see. I speculate that Hagrid did something to prepare Dumbledore for
>>>a final transfiguration - which doesn't mean DD is alive. On the
>>>contrary - the alchemy information posted includes the detail that
>>>at the later stages the body becomes unimportant.
>>
>>IIRC, Coltrane and Rickman were informed, presumably separately, before or
>>during the shooting of GoF. This leads me to believe that JKR was thinking
>>of something more long-term rather that something specific in movie 7.
>
>I think you mean movie 4.

No. I've never seen an actual report of when JKR told the two actors what.
I understood that she had at least revealed the ending of the series to
Rickman.

>
>>I don't have the DVD yet, but I do recall Hagrid's accentuated infatuation
>>with Olympe. Snape was very much changed in GoF, Rickman's few scenes
>>being dominated by concern for Harry's safety.
>
>That is an impressive series of examples.
>
>>3) The scene where Harry and Ron are whacked on the head with a book is
>>played for comedy rather than hate. (Will Daniel ever learn not to laugh
>>before the punch-line?)
>
>Just a quibble - I don't remember a book being used, I remember Snape
>grabbing both of them by the back of the neck and shoving their heads
>face down to the table/desk.

IIRC, that was his first warning. When the two continue to chatter Snape
uses the book.

>
>>4) When Snape accuses Harry of stealing from his storeroom, he is
>>surprisingly subdued.
>
>I took that as being more impressively quiet than ranting.

Agreed, but why wouldn't Rickman play it the way he did in CoS after the
boys arrived in the blue Anglia?

>
>>6) Snape protectively throws himself in front of Harry when Barty
>>Crouch Jr. lunges at him.
>
>Even as he did in the movie version of PoA...

A minor quiible - he was also shielding Ron and Hermione. But in CoS, when
HP finds the petified Mrs. Norris, it is Snape who surprisingly suggests
that "Perhaps Potter and his friends were simply in the wrong place at the
wrong time..."

>
>>Rickman's performance indicates to me that there is more to Snape's
>>concern for Harry's safety that just saving him for the Dark Lord,
>>although that option is still very much open.
>
>Possibly. I am in the Snape-has-plans-of-his-own camp, and Harry
>is very important to those plans.

Amen to that!

>
>>>>>Another "coincidence" is the Fountain of Magical Brethren which has a
>>>>>wizard in the center and around him are a witch, a centaur, a goblin
>>>>>and a house elf. The last three are looking up adoringly at the witch
>>>>>and wizard. In alchemy, there is a Fountain of Fountains whereby two
>>>>>of the operations is represented by a king and a queen at its center,
>>>>>surrounded by the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt.
>>>
>>>Oh, very nice indeed. Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur,
>>>centaur for mercury (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?
>>
>>How do you do that? I could sniff a bottle of ether and not make those
>>associations.
>
>Practice...
>
>Goblins are tunnellers and rather sinister. Sulfur = brimstone = demonic
>associations. Whereas house elves are usually associated with trustworthiness
>(salt of the earth) and they are cooks, also associated with salt.

....perhaps if I changed my brand of beer?
--
Chris

Re: JK & research [message #243977 ]

So, 02 April 2006 16:10

cwlNOSPAM

In article <MAKXf.54691$F_3.8730 [at] newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, Kish
<Kish_K [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

>Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
>> In article <oqAXf.65496$dW3.62912 [at] newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, Kish
>> <Kish_K [at] pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Good catch, Chris, on the Snape scenes. I really hope that the "Snape
>>>>is not evil" group has its day!
>>>
>>>Playing him like he actually likes Harry now--gaaaaah.
>>
>>
>> No, Kish. I just think it's obvious that Snape has great concern for
>> Harry's safety and might even be trying to save him for the Dark Lord. If
>> you saw something different I would certainly be interested to hear about
>> it.
>
>I haven't seen the movie yet; I was going on what you said.

Be assured that my "Snape is not evil" filter was turned off. And I see no
need for you to be in a hurry about seeing the movie. I was quite
disappointed. The only way I'm going to buy the DVD is nice and cheap on
eBay when the pirates have finished ripping their copies.

>
>> 1) The look he gives Harry, whose name has just come out of the Goblet,
>>> can be described as neutral with a wisp of concern.
>>>
>>> 2) When the dragon barely misses whopping Harry with his tail, there is a
>>> very brief shot of McGonagall and Snape. His concern and shock is twice
>>> that of Harry's Head of House and it is genuine.
>>>
>>> 3) The scene where Harry and Ron are whacked on the head with a book is
>>> played for comedy rather than hate. (Will Daniel ever learn not to laugh
>>> before the punch-line?)
>>>
>>> 4) When Snape accuses Harry of stealing from his storeroom, he is
>>> surprisingly subdued.
>
>Whatever is going on with Snape in the books, he loathes Harry
>personally--I hope we can agree on that. On one level, perhaps, he may
>want to protect him, feel obligated to protect him as his teacher, or be
>afraid he may die because the hope of the world will die with him.
>However....From what you're saying, it sounds like "Snape actually does
>personally hate Harry" is not present in the Goblet of Fire movie. If
>his attitude toward Harry is shown as mixed, by all means, tell me (or
>wait for me to rent the movie and watch it, of course). My perception
>of your post is that he comes off more like he thinks he's Harry's
>godfather.

You've hit the nail on the head Kish. Rickman's performance no longer
conveys the personal loathing of Harry that we know from the books and saw
in the first 3 movies.

Personally, the protective attitude that I observe strenghtens my belief
that Snape's ultimate goal, for reasons yet unknown to us, is to
*vanquish* the Dark Lord by using Harry. He has heard the first part of
the Prophecy and knows that this is his best chance of actually doing it.

That's my 2 Knuts worth.
--
Chris

Re: JK & research [message #243992 ]

So, 02 April 2006 19:16

wadkin2000

Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> In article <122ur9krhpgca68 [at] corp.supernews.com>, dicconf [at] radix.net
> (Richard Eney) wrote:
>
> >In article <cwlNOSPAM-0104061201540001 [at] o51ec.o.pppool.de>,
> >Green-Eyed Chris <cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de> wrote:
> >> dicconf [at] radix.net (Richard Eney) wrote:
> ><snip>
> >
> >>>The other actor who was told some of what would happen is Alan Rickman.
> >>>So whatever happens is probably going to involve both Snape and Hagrid.

> >>IIRC, Coltrane and Rickman were informed, presumably separately, before or
> >>during the shooting of GoF. This leads me to believe that JKR was thinking
> >>of something more long-term rather that something specific in movie 7.
> >
> >I think you mean movie 4.
>
> No. I've never seen an actual report of when JKR told the two actors what.
> I understood that she had at least revealed the ending of the series to
> Rickman.

> Chris

CBBC Interview (2001)--JK revealed she gave some of the actors some top
secret background information that will emerge for later boooks. She
said it was important to tell them so they knew their characters
better. "I did give certain information to Robbie Coltrane, the
background story about Hagrid, and I gave Alan Rickman a little bit on
Snape."

Nov.2003 interview w/A.Rickman--"There are such still waters in there.
And the trouble is that there's so much we don't know yet because JK
Rowling hasn't revealed it. I know a couple of things about all that,
that you don't and I'm not telling!"

Total Stars (French mag)summer '04 interview w/A.Rickman--"I don't know
everything of Snape's past or motivations. As for what I know about
him because JK Rowling agreed to discuss him with me, that must remain
secret for the moment."

VH1 (Nov.05) interview w/D.Radcliffe--"Do you hate Alan Rickman's
character, Severus Snape, as much as I do now after reading HBP?"
Answer: "Alan Rickman knows the truth about his character! He knows.
He has got information from JK Rowling-I think probably the only person
in the world, but he knows about Snape!"
I think, IIRC, that he later amended his remarks...that A.R. didn't
know everything (what was going to happen to the character or the
ending of the series,for example).

Digital Spy(Dec.'05)--Robbie Coltrane revealed JK has shared with him
Hagrid's fate. He said, "She told me what happens to Hagrid because I
couldn't do it unless I knew what the story was." This interview was
before he made a decision to appear in OOTP or not.

Re: JK & research [message #244026 ]

Mo, 03 April 2006 01:39

Blon Fel Fotch Passam

Tamar wrote:

> Wadkin2000 wrote:

>> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

>>> Tamar wrote:

>>>> Green-Eyed Chris wrote:

>>>>> the three principal minerals of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt

>>>> Which is which, I wonder. Goblin for sulfur, centaur for mercury
>>>> (Mercury/Hermes/intelligence), house elf for salt?

>>> Sulphur/Red/Weasley, Mercury/Hermes/Granger, Salt/Potash/Potter?

>> Oh, excellent, Blon!!!

> Yes, very neat indeed.

Thanks.

> (Why do I keep thinking Sulfur is yellow?)

It can be either; think about coal & diamonds.

Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!

Re: JK & research [message #244027 ]

Mo, 03 April 2006 01:40

Blon Fel Fotch Passam

Kish wrote:

> Whatever is going on with Snape in the books, he loathes Harry
> personally--I hope we can agree on that. On one level, perhaps, he may
> want to protect him, feel obligated to protect him as his teacher, or be
> afraid he may die because the hope of the world will die with him.
> However....From what you're saying, it sounds like "Snape actually does
> personally hate Harry" is not present in the Goblet of Fire movie. If
> his attitude toward Harry is shown as mixed, by all means, tell me

My theory is that Snape loathes James's son, and protects Lily's son.

Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!

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