Half Blood Prince Major Letdown

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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Half Blood Prince Major Letdown

Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239660]

So, 26 März 2006 14:35

ergrtgth

I re-read HBP last week, and I found it even worse the second time around,
that it struck me as really lazy writing. What I liked was all of the
background on Riddle, thought that was fabulous, but everything else just
irritated me. Especially the way everyone ignored Harry's warnings
throughout the entire book. In the last 5 books all of the adults
complained that Harry would go off without telling the adults what was
happening, well in HBP he went to the adults with his suspicions everytime
something went wrong, and he was constantly ignored.

If just one person took him seriously about Draco, or if they, oh, I don't
know checked his freaking arm, the entire ending never would have happened.
Yes, Dumbledore is "trusting," and I know people still think that a lot of
things about Snape will be answered in Book 7, but judging book 6 on it's
own merits, the entire plot pretty much sucks due to the whole issue that
everytime something happened and Harry announced his suspicions he was
completely ignored, and it just seemed to be too easy and simplistic a way
to force a plot forward.

Draco wasn't shown to be clever, it was shown that the adults and everyone
else were just too self absorbed to care. Which, if there was a war going
on, you would think everyone would be especially on their guard and watching
out for ANYTHING suspicious instead, everyone did the reverse. They trusted
people who shouldn't be trusted, ignored Harry who (other than the Ministry
fiasco) proved that he has a keen eye for dark activity, etc..

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239686 ]

So, 26 März 2006 19:03

Steven Sousa

ergrtgth wrote:

> If just one person took him seriously about Draco, or if they, oh, I don't
> know checked his freaking arm, the entire ending never would have happened.
> Yes, Dumbledore is "trusting," and I know people still think that a lot of
> things about Snape will be answered in Book 7, but judging book 6 on it's
> own merits, the entire plot pretty much sucks due to the whole issue that
> everytime something happened and Harry announced his suspicions he was
> completely ignored, and it just seemed to be too easy and simplistic a way
> to force a plot forward.

Dumbledore already knew everything Harry knew. Whatever happened at the
end of HBP, it is clear that it went exactly as Dumbledore planned and
wished to happen. Dumbledore didn't want to prevent what happened, so of
course he had to "ignore" Harry's warnings.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239694 ]

So, 26 März 2006 20:11

Ken

ergrtgth wrote:
snip
Especially the way everyone ignored Harry's warnings throughout the entire
book.
snip>
> If just one person took him seriously about Draco, or if they, oh, I
> don't know checked his freaking arm, the entire ending never would
> have happened.
snip

DD and Snape did not *ignore* Harry's warnings. They *at least* knew that
Draco was up to something if not all the details.

Ken

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239695 ]

So, 26 März 2006 20:11

Lady Grey

ergrtgth wrote:
> <snip> it just seemed to be too easy and simplistic a way
> to force a plot forward.

interesting how the above applies to book 5 too. if AD had just kept
harry informed or harry had just listened to Hermy, Sirius would be
alive. I think when JKR plotted out the books, she got so invovled in
finding a twist for each one she began to contrive them rather than
have them seem natural from the plot.

> Draco wasn't shown to be clever, it was shown that the adults and everyone
> else were just too self absorbed to care. Which, if there was a war going
> on, you would think everyone would be especially on their guard and watching
> out for ANYTHING suspicious instead, everyone did the reverse. They trusted
> people who shouldn't be trusted, ignored Harry who (other than the Ministry
> fiasco) proved that he has a keen eye for dark activity, etc..

agreed.

--
Jane Grey

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239697 ]

So, 26 März 2006 20:15

Lady Grey

Steven Sousa wrote:
> ergrtgth wrote:
>
> > If just one person took him seriously about Draco, or if they, oh, I don't
> > know checked his freaking arm, the entire ending never would have happened.
> > Yes, Dumbledore is "trusting," and I know people still think that a lot of
> > things about Snape will be answered in Book 7, but judging book 6 on it's
> > own merits, the entire plot pretty much sucks due to the whole issue that
> > everytime something happened and Harry announced his suspicions he was
> > completely ignored, and it just seemed to be too easy and simplistic a way
> > to force a plot forward.
>
> Dumbledore already knew everything Harry knew. Whatever happened at the
> end of HBP, it is clear that it went exactly as Dumbledore planned and
> wished to happen. Dumbledore didn't want to prevent what happened, so of
> course he had to "ignore" Harry's warnings.

yeah but if AD had found out how Draco intended to bring DEs into the
castle, AD could have (unknowingly to Draco) sabotaged Draco's attempts
to fix the cabinet.... so the 'loop hole' in the unbreakable vow Snape
took with Narcissa could have been exploited for much longer... maybe
long enough for AD to destory all the other horcruxes. but JKR couldn't
have had that, no she wanted harry to get the horcruxes without adult
help...

--
Jane Grey

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239705 ]

So, 26 März 2006 22:20

Steven Sousa

Jane Grey wrote:
> Steven Sousa wrote:
>
>>ergrtgth wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If just one person took him seriously about Draco, or if they, oh, I don't
>>>know checked his freaking arm, the entire ending never would have happened.
>>>Yes, Dumbledore is "trusting," and I know people still think that a lot of
>>>things about Snape will be answered in Book 7, but judging book 6 on it's
>>>own merits, the entire plot pretty much sucks due to the whole issue that
>>>everytime something happened and Harry announced his suspicions he was
>>>completely ignored, and it just seemed to be too easy and simplistic a way
>>>to force a plot forward.
>>
>>Dumbledore already knew everything Harry knew. Whatever happened at the
>>end of HBP, it is clear that it went exactly as Dumbledore planned and
>>wished to happen. Dumbledore didn't want to prevent what happened, so of
>>course he had to "ignore" Harry's warnings.
>
>
> yeah but if AD had found out how Draco intended to bring DEs into the
> castle, AD could have (unknowingly to Draco) sabotaged Draco's attempts
> to fix the cabinet.... so the 'loop hole' in the unbreakable vow Snape
> took with Narcissa could have been exploited for much longer... maybe
> long enough for AD to destory all the other horcruxes. but JKR couldn't
> have had that, no she wanted harry to get the horcruxes without adult
> help...

But without Draco fixing the cabinet, none of the other events of that
evening could have taken place.

Of course, since I am in the "Dumbledore didn't really die" camp, I
don't see a problem with DD and Snape not acting to prevent any of it
from happening. DD wanted to fake his own death, and Draco's mission was
a perfectly convenient ruse to do so.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239707 ]

So, 26 März 2006 23:13

Brent Braten

"Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1143396692.698819.159130 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> ergrtgth wrote:
> > <snip> it just seemed to be too easy and simplistic a way
> > to force a plot forward.
>
> interesting how the above applies to book 5 too. if AD had just kept
> harry informed or harry had just listened to Hermy, Sirius would be
> alive. I think when JKR plotted out the books, she got so invovled in
> finding a twist for each one she began to contrive them rather than
> have them seem natural from the plot.
>
> > Draco wasn't shown to be clever, it was shown that the adults and
everyone
> > else were just too self absorbed to care. Which, if there was a war
going
> > on, you would think everyone would be especially on their guard and
watching
> > out for ANYTHING suspicious instead, everyone did the reverse. They
trusted
> > people who shouldn't be trusted, ignored Harry who (other than the
Ministry
> > fiasco) proved that he has a keen eye for dark activity, etc..
>
> agreed.
>
> --
> Jane Grey
>
One of the weaknesses I've found in the books - and I mean no disrespect to
JKR - is that she seems to be ignoring the human side of things (Harry being
kept out of the loop in book five, Harry's greiving process in book six,
etc.) in deference to the storyline she wishes to advance.

Don't get me wrong, I lke the characters and the universe she has created
but there is so much she could have done differently that I cannot help but
wonder. I will buy book seven because I want to see how it ends but I
really don't think I am going to buy any more of the movies.

BB

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239709 ]

So, 26 März 2006 23:40

Zolak of Twylo

On 2006-03-26 15:20:53 -0500, Steven Sousa <ssousa [at] adelphia.net> said:

> Jane Grey wrote:
>> Steven Sousa wrote:
>>
>>> ergrtgth wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> If just one person took him seriously about Draco, or if they, oh, I don't
>>>> know checked his freaking arm, the entire ending never would have happened.
>>>> Yes, Dumbledore is "trusting," and I know people still think that a lot of
>>>> things about Snape will be answered in Book 7, but judging book 6 on it's
>>>> own merits, the entire plot pretty much sucks due to the whole issue that
>>>> everytime something happened and Harry announced his suspicions he was
>>>> completely ignored, and it just seemed to be too easy and simplistic a way
>>>> to force a plot forward.
>>>
>>> Dumbledore already knew everything Harry knew. Whatever happened at the
>>> end of HBP, it is clear that it went exactly as Dumbledore planned and
>>> wished to happen. Dumbledore didn't want to prevent what happened, so of
>>> course he had to "ignore" Harry's warnings.
>>
>>
>> yeah but if AD had found out how Draco intended to bring DEs into the
>> castle, AD could have (unknowingly to Draco) sabotaged Draco's attempts
>> to fix the cabinet.... so the 'loop hole' in the unbreakable vow Snape
>> took with Narcissa could have been exploited for much longer... maybe
>> long enough for AD to destory all the other horcruxes. but JKR couldn't
>> have had that, no she wanted harry to get the horcruxes without adult
>> help...
>
> But without Draco fixing the cabinet, none of the other events of that
> evening could have taken place.
>
> Of course, since I am in the "Dumbledore didn't really die" camp, I
> don't see a problem with DD and Snape not acting to prevent any of it
> from happening. DD wanted to fake his own death, and Draco's mission
> was a perfectly convenient ruse to do so.

A perfectly convenient ruse that puts Hogwarts students at great peril?
I don't think Dumbledore
would have done that. I think he knew Draco was up to something, but
didn't realize DEs would
be entering the castle.

--
Enjoy,

Zolak of Twylo

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239715 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 00:20

Lady Grey

Steven Sousa wrote:
<snip>
> But without Draco fixing the cabinet, none of the other events of that
> evening could have taken place.

exactly.

> Of course, since I am in the "Dumbledore didn't really die" camp, I
> don't see a problem with DD and Snape not acting to prevent any of it
> from happening. DD wanted to fake his own death, and Draco's mission was
> a perfectly convenient ruse to do so.

So do you think that DD faked his own death unbeknowst to Snape?

--
Jane Grey

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239716 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 00:23

Lady Grey

Brent Braten wrote:
> "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1143396692.698819.159130 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> One of the weaknesses I've found in the books - and I mean no disrespect to
> JKR - is that she seems to be ignoring the human side of things (Harry being
> kept out of the loop in book five, Harry's greiving process in book six,
> etc.) in deference to the storyline she wishes to advance.

<nods head vigourously> that's so true!

> Don't get me wrong, I lke the characters and the universe she has created
> but there is so much she could have done differently that I cannot help but
> wonder. I will buy book seven because I want to see how it ends but I
> really don't think I am going to buy any more of the movies.

i stopped getting the DVDs after I was very disappointed with PoA. But
my curiosity meant I couldn't not go see the 4th movie... so i'll
prolly go see the other movies but will definately not be waiting at
the edge of my seat for them.

--
Jane Grey

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239717 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 00:26

Lady Grey

Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> On 2006-03-26 15:20:53 -0500, Steven Sousa <ssousa [at] adelphia.net> said:
<snip>
> A perfectly convenient ruse that puts Hogwarts students at great peril?
> I don't think Dumbledore
> would have done that.

yes i think DD's and snape best bet was to hope that Draco keeps trying
and failing to find a way to kill DD and let DEs into the castle. But i
think DD could have done more inorder to ensure this went on for
longer. He didn't because JKR wanted that climax.

> I think he knew Draco was up to something, but
> didn't realize DEs would
> be entering the castle.

yes DD asks Draco how he managed it, he said he had thought it would be
impossible.

--
Jane Grey

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239720 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 00:52

drusilla

Brent Braten escribió:
> "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1143396692.698819.159130 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>> ergrtgth wrote:
>>> <snip> it just seemed to be too easy and simplistic a way
>>> to force a plot forward.
>> interesting how the above applies to book 5 too. if AD had just kept
>> harry informed or harry had just listened to Hermy, Sirius would be
>> alive. I think when JKR plotted out the books, she got so invovled in
>> finding a twist for each one she began to contrive them rather than
>> have them seem natural from the plot.
>>
>>> Draco wasn't shown to be clever, it was shown that the adults and
> everyone
>>> else were just too self absorbed to care. Which, if there was a war
> going
>>> on, you would think everyone would be especially on their guard and
> watching
>>> out for ANYTHING suspicious instead, everyone did the reverse. They
> trusted
>>> people who shouldn't be trusted, ignored Harry who (other than the
> Ministry
>>> fiasco) proved that he has a keen eye for dark activity, etc..
>> agreed.
>>
>> --
>> Jane Grey
>>
> One of the weaknesses I've found in the books - and I mean no disrespect to
> JKR - is that she seems to be ignoring the human side of things (Harry being
> kept out of the loop in book five, Harry's greiving process in book six,
> etc.) in deference to the storyline she wishes to advance.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I lke the characters and the universe she has created
> but there is so much she could have done differently that I cannot help but
> wonder. I will buy book seven because I want to see how it ends but I
> really don't think I am going to buy any more of the movies.
>
> BB
>
>
I agree and disagree.

In OotP, it's intended that Harry is ignored by everybody, or at least
kept aside from news, as Dumbledore explained at the end, that he didn't
want him to know certain stuff. Of course, as we see everything through
his eyes, we feel his desperation and in a way we are on his side.

In HBP, I do agree that it was almost pathetic how Harry managed Sirius'
dead. Black was the only person that loved him for real and worried
about him and Harry just decides one day to move on and get over, as
though is easy. We know Harry is hermetic but that was so ridiculous
that I think fans mourned more than he did.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239721 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 00:55

drusilla

Zolak of Twylo escribió:
> On 2006-03-26 15:20:53 -0500, Steven Sousa <ssousa [at] adelphia.net> said:
>
>> Jane Grey wrote:
>>> Steven Sousa wrote:
>>>
>>>> ergrtgth wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If just one person took him seriously about Draco, or if they, oh,
>>>>> I don't
>>>>> know checked his freaking arm, the entire ending never would have
>>>>> happened.
>>>>> Yes, Dumbledore is "trusting," and I know people still think that a
>>>>> lot of
>>>>> things about Snape will be answered in Book 7, but judging book 6
>>>>> on it's
>>>>> own merits, the entire plot pretty much sucks due to the whole
>>>>> issue that
>>>>> everytime something happened and Harry announced his suspicions he was
>>>>> completely ignored, and it just seemed to be too easy and
>>>>> simplistic a way
>>>>> to force a plot forward.
>>>>
>>>> Dumbledore already knew everything Harry knew. Whatever happened at the
>>>> end of HBP, it is clear that it went exactly as Dumbledore planned and
>>>> wished to happen. Dumbledore didn't want to prevent what happened,
>>>> so of
>>>> course he had to "ignore" Harry's warnings.
>>>
>>>
>>> yeah but if AD had found out how Draco intended to bring DEs into the
>>> castle, AD could have (unknowingly to Draco) sabotaged Draco's attempts
>>> to fix the cabinet.... so the 'loop hole' in the unbreakable vow Snape
>>> took with Narcissa could have been exploited for much longer... maybe
>>> long enough for AD to destory all the other horcruxes. but JKR couldn't
>>> have had that, no she wanted harry to get the horcruxes without adult
>>> help...
>>
>> But without Draco fixing the cabinet, none of the other events of that
>> evening could have taken place.
>>
>> Of course, since I am in the "Dumbledore didn't really die" camp, I
>> don't see a problem with DD and Snape not acting to prevent any of it
>> from happening. DD wanted to fake his own death, and Draco's mission
>> was a perfectly convenient ruse to do so.
>
> A perfectly convenient ruse that puts Hogwarts students at great peril?
> I don't think Dumbledore
> would have done that. I think he knew Draco was up to something, but
> didn't realize DEs would
> be entering the castle.

Agree. I think DD was sure that the collar and the poison were the only
attempts of Draco to kill him, and didn't realise he was plotting
something else. Even he could have realised the same than Harry, that he
had plans, that he locked himself inside the Requirement Room, he coud
have been sure it was in order to plan his new move.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239730 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 02:27

Steven Sousa

Jane Grey wrote:

> Steven Sousa wrote:

>>Of course, since I am in the "Dumbledore didn't really die" camp, I
>>don't see a problem with DD and Snape not acting to prevent any of it
>>from happening. DD wanted to fake his own death, and Draco's mission was
>>a perfectly convenient ruse to do so.
>
>
> So do you think that DD faked his own death unbeknowst to Snape?

That is possible, but unlikely.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239759 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 08:09

eggplant107

ergrtgth Wrote:

> I re-read HBP last week, and I found it even
> worse the second time around, that it struck
> me as really lazy writing. [...] the entire plot
> pretty much sucks

I humbly submit that anyone who reads a book and thinks it sucks and
then, out of the many millions of books available, chooses to RE-READ
that very same book is a complete jackass.

Eggplant

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239761 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 08:24

dicconf

In article <1143439796.039687.78580 [at] z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
eggplant <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>ergrtgth Wrote:
>
>> I re-read HBP last week, and I found it even
>> worse the second time around, that it struck
>> me as really lazy writing. [...] the entire plot
>> pretty much sucks
>
>I humbly submit that anyone who reads a book and thinks it sucks and
>then, out of the many millions of books available, chooses to RE-READ
>that very same book is a complete jackass.

Well, hee-haw, then, because if a book disappoints me, I often will
re-read it in order to find out _specifically_ what annoyed me
or disappointed me. Then I can tell others whether it was a matter
of my personal taste or a perceived fault in the
book, and what that perceived fault might be.

=Tamar

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239766 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 11:16

Toon

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 12:35:33 GMT, "ergrtgth" <htrrrth [at] rth.com> wrote:

>I re-read HBP last week, and I found it even worse the second time around,
>that it struck me as really lazy writing. What I liked was all of the
>background on Riddle, thought that was fabulous, but everything else just
>irritated me. Especially the way everyone ignored Harry's warnings
>throughout the entire book. In the last 5 books all of the adults
>complained that Harry would go off without telling the adults what was
>happening, well in HBP he went to the adults with his suspicions everytime
>something went wrong, and he was constantly ignored.
>
>If just one person took him seriously about Draco, or if they, oh, I don't
>know checked his freaking arm, the entire ending never would have happened.
>Yes, Dumbledore is "trusting," and I know people still think that a lot of
>things about Snape will be answered in Book 7, but judging book 6 on it's
>own merits, the entire plot pretty much sucks due to the whole issue that
>everytime something happened and Harry announced his suspicions he was
>completely ignored, and it just seemed to be too easy and simplistic a way
>to force a plot forward.
>
>Draco wasn't shown to be clever, it was shown that the adults and everyone
>else were just too self absorbed to care. Which, if there was a war going
>on, you would think everyone would be especially on their guard and watching
>out for ANYTHING suspicious instead, everyone did the reverse. They trusted
>people who shouldn't be trusted, ignored Harry who (other than the Ministry
>fiasco) proved that he has a keen eye for dark activity, etc..
>

See, I thought they were taking the Draco things seriously, but were
going a different route than Harry wanted to try and save him. DD
himself says he knows a lot more about the situation than Harry does.
He just A) never expected there to be a way to sneak DE's in, which,
even if he was watched more closely, he'd probably PJP himself and
another into each other, and work that way. B) Did't tell Harry what
was truly going on. Biggets problem is Harry's little HBP spelling
fiasco. Could have queered the whole deal, or moved the time schedule
up too much. C) Debatedly severely underestimated Snape. Which it
might be planned, in which case, C is cheerfully withdrawn.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239769 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 12:02

dsueme

ergrtgth wrote:

In the last 5 books all of the adults
> complained that Harry would go off without telling the adults what was
> happening, well in HBP he went to the adults with his suspicions everytime
> something went wrong, and he was constantly ignored.

Can you flesh this out with some specific examples?

I'm inclined to agree that HP6 is the weakest of all the books. I am
particularly interested in ways that HP6 is _qualitatively_ different
from the prior books.

Dave

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239789 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 17:16

drusilla

ergrtgth escribió:
> I re-read HBP last week, and I found it even worse the second time around,
> that it struck me as really lazy writing. What I liked was all of the
> background on Riddle, thought that was fabulous, but everything else just
> irritated me. Especially the way everyone ignored Harry's warnings
> throughout the entire book. In the last 5 books all of the adults
> complained that Harry would go off without telling the adults what was
> happening, well in HBP he went to the adults with his suspicions everytime
> something went wrong, and he was constantly ignored.
>
> If just one person took him seriously about Draco, or if they, oh, I don't
> know checked his freaking arm, the entire ending never would have happened.

He hE, I suggested something similar, specially after the bathroom
incident, when Draco did attempt to use an unforgivable curse on Harry,
someone should have investigated if Harry had spoken (something he
should have done). But, as someone also pointed out, If Dumbledore did
realised he had the mark, Voldemort had known one way or another and
take it as a failure, consequently, killing his mother.
So, dumbledore couldn't do more than try to stop his attempts to killing
him but without let him to know.

> Yes, Dumbledore is "trusting," and I know people still think that a lot of
> things about Snape will be answered in Book 7, but judging book 6 on it's
> own merits, the entire plot pretty much sucks due to the whole issue that
> everytime something happened and Harry announced his suspicions he was
> completely ignored, and it just seemed to be too easy and simplistic a way
> to force a plot forward.

Harry wasn'c completely ignored: DD did listen what he had to say but
this wasn't news to him. Also, the fact of Draco being a DE isn't
exactly something that everybody would believe; Ron was right: he was a
kid. Perhaps this had something to do with LV choosing Draco: that he
knew no one would suspect nor believe

Besides, Dumbledore might have thought he had Draco under control,
thinking the meal and the necklace were his only attempts to murder and
ignoring about the Cabinets. DWe know he always believe the best of
people, surely he thought Draco wouldn't try anything dangerous that
might hurt his friend, as he pointed out at their encounter.

> Draco wasn't shown to be clever, it was shown that the adults and everyone
> else were just too self absorbed to care. Which, if there was a war going
> on, you would think everyone would be especially on their guard and watching
> out for ANYTHING suspicious instead, everyone did the reverse. They trusted
> people who shouldn't be trusted, ignored Harry who (other than the Ministry
> fiasco) proved that he has a keen eye for dark activity, etc..

yes but after the MoM fiasco, Harry's credibility must have go down for
mostly people, even when they love him or like him.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239820 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 21:39

ergrtgth

"Brent Braten" <bbraten [at] bresnan.net> wrote in message
news:1oedneZT6Y_AnrrZRVn-sw [at] bresnan.com...
>
> "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1143396692.698819.159130 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>> ergrtgth wrote:
>> > <snip> it just seemed to be too easy and simplistic a way
>> > to force a plot forward.
>>
>> interesting how the above applies to book 5 too. if AD had just kept
>> harry informed or harry had just listened to Hermy, Sirius would be
>> alive. I think when JKR plotted out the books, she got so invovled in
>> finding a twist for each one she began to contrive them rather than
>> have them seem natural from the plot.
>>
>> > Draco wasn't shown to be clever, it was shown that the adults and
> everyone
>> > else were just too self absorbed to care. Which, if there was a war
> going
>> > on, you would think everyone would be especially on their guard and
> watching
>> > out for ANYTHING suspicious instead, everyone did the reverse. They
> trusted
>> > people who shouldn't be trusted, ignored Harry who (other than the
> Ministry
>> > fiasco) proved that he has a keen eye for dark activity, etc..
>>
>> agreed.
>>
>> --
>> Jane Grey
>>
> One of the weaknesses I've found in the books - and I mean no disrespect
> to
> JKR - is that she seems to be ignoring the human side of things (Harry
> being
> kept out of the loop in book five, Harry's greiving process in book six,
> etc.) in deference to the storyline she wishes to advance.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I lke the characters and the universe she has created
> but there is so much she could have done differently that I cannot help
> but
> wonder. I will buy book seven because I want to see how it ends but I
> really don't think I am going to buy any more of the movies.
>
> BB
>
>

I still enjoy the books and movies, but beyond part 4 it seems like JKR is
so intent on doing the opposite of what everyone thinks is going to happen -
based on all the clues and plot progression that she lays out, that they
can't help but be major disappointments.

It seems like she's doing "twists for twists" sake instead of what are
logical progressions, especially as it relates to how the characters act
toward one another. I'm going to purchase Book 7, but honestly I'm not
"excited" about it, like I was with book 5 and 6 because each of them let me
down. She's going to have a lot of work to do in Book 7.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239821 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 21:43

ergrtgth

I really like the movies and look at them as movies. But as book adaptations
they get progressively worse - although I thought in many respects GOF movie
was better than the book because it was more streamlined and excised a lot
of the things that I hated about GOF (SPEW, Whinky/Dobby, the long 80 page
plot summary at the end and a few other minor things. But if they were
going to have Skeeter in the movie, then they should have used the entire
Skeeter/Hermione storyline) - my favorite book.

The thing I don't like about the movies is the magic seems to be leaving
them as we move forward. And the inconsistancy with the light coming out of
wands is irritating. Where sometimes when Harry cries Experilliamas, you get
the big light show, other times nothing comes out.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239822 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 21:50

ergrtgth

I'm the same way, especially with series or books based on series and
characters that I love. Usually the first time, I read the book so fast or
will have such high expectations that it's bound to disappoint, so I like to
return to it a few months later and read it at a nice pace and really take
time to absorb it. Like I hated OOTP the first two times I read it, but the
third time it grew on me. I love the HP Characters and world in which they
make up, and have followed the series faithfully.

And I don't hate all of HBP, I was really disappointed in it, and there are
certain elements that I hated like the points mentioned in my original post,
I also didn't like any of the stuff with Ron and Hermione, I didn't like any
of the new characters like MacClagan, Emmily Vane (or whatever her name was)
and the love potion, Slughorn, etc, and thought that at this point in the
book introducing new characters is silly. HATED, HATED, HATED everything to
do with Tonks and Lupin (two of my favorite 2nd tier characters). But I
loved Fleur.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239824 ]

Mo, 27 März 2006 22:02

ergrtgth

Yes, after the ministry fiasco, I would buy into the idea that most people
wouldn't take him seriously about anything else. But then again he had
proven himself to be right numerous other times. The ministry mistake was
more Dumbledore's than Harry's as well, so I don't think
his credibility should have completely ignored. Now the one problem with my
his being ignored argument is the fact that the Ministry did
reinvestigate the Malfoy estate.

But Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he
allowed him to stay in the school even though he tried to
kill D, which would be all well and good if those attempts didn't almost
kill not one but TWO other students. At what point would Dumbledore
had finally stood up and done something? After someone else actually died?
Or another student or two or three more (after the first two attempts)
ended up at St. Mungos? I can understand D wanting to help Draco and maybe
even Snape get around the Vow, but to allow Draco to
continue his attempts, after he KNEW that two students almost DIED in those
attemps, is inexcsuable and D should have been fired or removed from
Hogwarts
for total incompetence at that point. What's worse was D didn't really seem
to care because he didn't think Draco would actually go
through with killing him. D was so focused on saving Draco's "soul" that he
completely ignored the danger Draco presented - whether inadvertly or
not, to the rest of the student body.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239828 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 00:23

devnull

ergrtgth wrote:
> Yes, after the ministry fiasco, I would buy into the idea that most people
> wouldn't take him seriously about anything else. But then again he had
> proven himself to be right numerous other times. The ministry mistake was
> more Dumbledore's than Harry's as well, so I don't think
> his credibility should have completely ignored. Now the one problem with my
> his being ignored argument is the fact that the Ministry did
> reinvestigate the Malfoy estate.
>
> But Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he
> allowed him to stay in the school even though he tried to
> kill D, which would be all well and good if those attempts didn't almost
> kill not one but TWO other students. At what point would Dumbledore
> had finally stood up and done something? After someone else actually died?
> Or another student or two or three more (after the first two attempts)
> ended up at St. Mungos? I can understand D wanting to help Draco and maybe
> even Snape get around the Vow, but to allow Draco to
> continue his attempts, after he KNEW that two students almost DIED in those
> attemps, is inexcsuable and D should have been fired or removed from
> Hogwarts
> for total incompetence at that point. What's worse was D didn't really seem
> to care because he didn't think Draco would actually go
> through with killing him. D was so focused on saving Draco's "soul" that he
> completely ignored the danger Draco presented - whether inadvertly or
> not, to the rest of the student body.

You're spot on. Furthermore, if he could hide Draco and his mother as he
promised the fatal night, he could have done so sooner. So I can't
understand the excuse for not confronting Draco. Once an student got
nearly killed, DD should have forced Draco and family out of the way.

The only reason to maintain the statu quo I can see is that DD were
aware of Snape's Vow and didn't want to trigger it. This would favor the
"planned death" scenary, I suppose. On the other hand, the wording
used by DD in the tower strongly feels to me like he were unaware. But
then again, Harry knew of the Vow and presumably told to DD. Would DD
discard this info as Harry paranoia? It seems foolish.

Unless I'm missing something, there are contradictions in every scenary
I can think of. This is not very promising unless book 7 can resolve it
properly.

My current thinking is: DD knew of the vow. The wording in the tower is
unnatural just because it's a (forced) red herring on JKR part. Draco
was kept at the school because removing him meant killing Snape, so DD
was gaining time while destroying Horcruxes. He expected (or maybe
already knew) that some of them will require his own sachrifice. So he
accorded with Snape that he should finish him once the fatal step were
taken, thus freeing Snape of the vow and reinforcing V trust on him, and
also saving Draco's soul.

A flaw in this scenery is that if I knew that some Horcrux is going to
kill me with uncertain speed, I would want to have with me the one who
should finish me (Snape). Another flaw is that some people absolutely
deny the possibility that DD would request Snape to kill him, and I tend
to agree. This could be solved if DD faked his death. This is possible
from the evidence in the book, but I have trouble believing it. I
wouldn't without the burial chapter. Admitedly, I wouldn't feel betrayed
by JKR for playing the sentimental card so heavily like other people
says, but still I consider it's too big a bluff. Maybe it's working! ;)

I'm still doubtful on if Snape double crossed DD or not. I lend here to
yes (even if he was unvoluntarily trapped in the vow). The recent
thread on Christian memes makes me think that Snape is playing a
variation of the Judas theme.

Other people has said, and I agree, that for Snape taking the vow
knowing the content was foolish, even being against DD. Though, we don't
know if one can bail out when the binding has begun (at the third
clause, to be precise). However, even if Snape is not on DD's side, I'm
sure that he's not truely faithful to V.

--
Take the Snape polls: http://snape.mosteo.com [Updated 16/08]

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239830 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 01:25

"ergrtgth" <htrrrth [at] rth.com> wrote in message
news:ofXVf.5122$VL2.3942 [at] trnddc04...
>I really like the movies and look at them as movies. But as book
>adaptations they get progressively worse - although I thought in many
>respects GOF movie was better than the book because it was more streamlined
>and excised a lot of the things that I hated about GOF (SPEW, Whinky/Dobby,
>the long 80 page plot summary at the end and a few other minor things. But
>if they were going to have Skeeter in the movie, then they should have used
>the entire Skeeter/Hermione storyline) - my favorite book.
>
> The thing I don't like about the movies is the magic seems to be leaving
> them as we move forward. And the inconsistancy with the light coming out
> of wands is irritating. Where sometimes when Harry cries Experilliamas,
> you get the big light show, other times nothing comes out.
>

Hi,

Interesting what you are saying about SPEW and the Winkey/Dobby thing. I
dont read the books , I listen to the audio book read by Stephen Fry. These
bits were so nicely bought to life by him, they ended up being some of my
favourite bits.

BUT, I guess that if you are reading the book, and desperate to persue the
plot, then I can imagine that they are nothing but an irritant, getting in
the way. I think that would have got on my nerves too.

AC

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239846 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 09:34

friesian

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:39:29 GMT, "ergrtgth" <htrrrth [at] rth.com> wrote:

>
>I still enjoy the books and movies, but beyond part 4 it seems like JKR is
>so intent on doing the opposite of what everyone thinks is going to happen -
>based on all the clues and plot progression that she lays out, that they
>can't help but be major disappointments.

Can you tell us what you expected to happen? I didn't go into them
expecting something, so I wasn't disappointed. I actually liked books
5 and 6 more than the others.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239906 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 21:41

ergrtgth

I don't know what I was expecting, exactly. Well that's a lie, I was
expecting more all out war among the wizards, instead of the standard "every
day" life at Hogwarts stuff. When the war did come to Hogwarts, we didn't
actually "see" it, we heard it, but had to put up with D's monologuing.

I wanted to see Umbridge get punished, wanted to see Fudge get voted out
(which he did, but it had already happened by the time Book 6 started), and
mostly I was disappointed in the lack of a DA in Book 6, which was a major
part of Book 5. I really liked the DA for several reasons, but mostly
because we got a chance to meet and learn about characters from other
houses.

I wanted more of an emotional reaction from Harry regarding Sirius' death,
not have him go on and on about it, but something more than 'I woke up one
day decided to move on' brush off kind of thing.

Book 5 felt like a really long set up for Book 6 so I was really looking
forward to it, and there was no payoff or progression. You could have
skipped book 5 entirely - other than the prophacy at the end, there seemed
to be no real connection between the two books.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239916 ]

Di, 28 März 2006 23:06

Ken

ergrtgth wrote:
>snip
> I wanted to see Umbridge get punished,
snip

i hear it's coming in book 7

Ken.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239929 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 03:06

nystulc

ergrtgth wrote:
> I re-read HBP last week, and I found it even worse the second time around,
> that it struck me as really lazy writing. What I liked was all of the
> background on Riddle, thought that was fabulous, but everything else just
> irritated me. Especially the way everyone ignored Harry's warnings
> throughout the entire book. In the last 5 books all of the adults
> complained that Harry would go off without telling the adults what was
> happening, well in HBP he went to the adults with his suspicions everytime
> something went wrong, and he was constantly ignored.

They did not ignore him. Every bit of information he provided was
acknowledged. What happened was that they failed give Harry the
feedback he desired. Their conduct remains unexplained, at least until
Book 7.

> If just one person took him seriously about Draco, or if they, oh, I don't
> know checked his freaking arm, the entire ending never would have happened.

How do you figure that? It is clear, from "Lightning-Struck Tower",
that DD knew that Draco was acting on Voldemort's orders in an attempt
to murder DD, and was behind two prior murder attempts. Technically,
even we do not know yet (for sure) that there is a death mark on
Draco's arm, but it is very likely DD was every bit as aware of the
death mark as we are. Considering what he DD *did* know, it is hard to
see that this detail would have made any difference to his actions.

> Yes, Dumbledore is "trusting," and I know people still think that a lot of
> things about Snape will be answered in Book 7, but judging book 6 on it's
> own merits, [...]

Judged on its own merits, it is a story whose merits cannot be fairly
judged, because the story is not yet complete. JKR has divided her
last and longest story arc between two books.

> [...] the entire plot pretty much sucks due to the whole issue that
> everytime something happened and Harry announced his suspicions he was
> completely ignored, and it just seemed to be too easy and simplistic a way
> to force a plot forward.

He was not ignored.

> Draco wasn't shown to be clever, [...]

Well, not too clever. DD was, at any rate, smart enough to know most
of what he was up to.

> [...] it was shown that the adults and everyone
> else were just too self absorbed to care.

As applied to DD, by "self-absorbed" you apparently mean "relatively
unconcerned about the preservation of his own life." But that is
probably not a flaw. DD is impossibly old, and has been preaching the
acceptance of death since Book 1.

> Which, if there was a war going
> on, you would think everyone would be especially on their guard and watching
> out for ANYTHING suspicious instead, everyone did the reverse. They trusted
> people who shouldn't be trusted, ignored Harry who (other than the Ministry
> fiasco) proved that he has a keen eye for dark activity, etc..

We won't understand DD's plan until we find out what it was.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #239939 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 05:51

friesian

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:41:09 GMT, "ergrtgth" <htrrrth [at] rth.com> wrote:

>I don't know what I was expecting, exactly. Well that's a lie, I was
>expecting more all out war among the wizards, instead of the standard "every
>day" life at Hogwarts stuff. When the war did come to Hogwarts, we didn't
>actually "see" it, we heard it, but had to put up with D's monologuing.
>

I guess I expected we would see more of that too, but we did see some
stuff for the summer, and they were more cautious over the holiday
break. But even in times of war, the average person has to do normal
stuff. And the kids are being sheltered at the school. They hear news
via family and the newspaper. There's probably more going on that they
don't see.

>I wanted to see Umbridge get punished, wanted to see Fudge get voted out
>(which he did, but it had already happened by the time Book 6 started), and
>mostly I was disappointed in the lack of a DA in Book 6, which was a major
>part of Book 5. I really liked the DA for several reasons, but mostly
>because we got a chance to meet and learn about characters from other
>houses.
>

I was disappointed that the DA was not active, but I suspect JKR
needed it to be that way. If they had been active, they would have
kept a better eye on draco. And it highlights the loneliness of
Neville and Luna. And storywise, I think Harry is less inclined to
endanger his friends. It was one thing to defy teachers to practice
for exams, but now he felt guilty for endangering his friends at the
MoM, and I believe he thinks he is protecting them by not getting them
involved.

>I wanted more of an emotional reaction from Harry regarding Sirius' death,
>not have him go on and on about it, but something more than 'I woke up one
>day decided to move on' brush off kind of thing.

Some people are like that. Especially when they are still in danger.
And I believe there was some denial too. He said he figured he had to
get over it, but in honesty, he spent those weeks moping and doing
nothing at all. He was still depressed and doing nothing, even the day
that Dumbledore came to pick him up. He only turned himself around
when Dumbledore actually showed up, and that is what made the
difference for him. At least in my opinion.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #243680 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 16:57

lesliemills2002

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #243696 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 23:00

tbarry22

drusilla wrote:
>
> In HBP, I do agree that it was almost pathetic how Harry managed Sirius'
> dead. Black was the only person that loved him for real and worried
> about him and Harry just decides one day to move on and get over, as
> though is easy. We know Harry is hermetic but that was so ridiculous
> that I think fans mourned more than he did.

Tell me what psychology book states that everyone grieves the same way?
Personally, I have never grieved over a family member's death. I
think that assigning a trait like this is inappropriate. Some people
deal with death better than others. Some people, like my father,
drink. Some people, like my mother, cry. Some people, like me, treat
it with an air of indifference. No one can state with certainty the
correct way to handle a death.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #243699 ]

Mi, 29 März 2006 23:26

drusilla

tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com escribió:
> drusilla wrote:
>> In HBP, I do agree that it was almost pathetic how Harry managed Sirius'
>> dead. Black was the only person that loved him for real and worried
>> about him and Harry just decides one day to move on and get over, as
>> though is easy. We know Harry is hermetic but that was so ridiculous
>> that I think fans mourned more than he did.
>
> Tell me what psychology book states that everyone grieves the same way?
> Personally, I have never grieved over a family member's death. I
> think that assigning a trait like this is inappropriate. Some people
> deal with death better than others. Some people, like my father,
> drink. Some people, like my mother, cry. Some people, like me, treat
> it with an air of indifference. No one can state with certainty the
> correct way to handle a death.
>

I never said that everyone is the same. I, personally, laugh. Then I got
all shocked and I cry during the one-year Mass after noticing how much I
miss the person in question, so, I can't speak.

But we are talking about Harry, and Sirius was the only person he really
met and interacted with that he loved and cared. I never said he should
have been crying his guts out, but he seemed so uninterested by it, that
it's unbelievable.

(Besides... you don't know the history of psychiatry... I do!
Kidding... )

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #243749 ]

Do, 30 März 2006 19:55

tbarry22

drusilla wrote:
> tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com escribi=F3:
> > drusilla wrote:
> >> In HBP, I do agree that it was almost pathetic how Harry managed Siriu=
s'
> >> dead. Black was the only person that loved him for real and worried
> >> about him and Harry just decides one day to move on and get over, as
> >> though is easy. We know Harry is hermetic but that was so ridiculous
> >> that I think fans mourned more than he did.
> >
> > Tell me what psychology book states that everyone grieves the same way?
> > Personally, I have never grieved over a family member's death. I
> > think that assigning a trait like this is inappropriate. Some people
> > deal with death better than others. Some people, like my father,
> > drink. Some people, like my mother, cry. Some people, like me, treat
> > it with an air of indifference. No one can state with certainty the
> > correct way to handle a death.
> >
>
> I never said that everyone is the same. I, personally, laugh. Then I got
> all shocked and I cry during the one-year Mass after noticing how much I
> miss the person in question, so, I can't speak.
>
> But we are talking about Harry, and Sirius was the only person he really
> met and interacted with that he loved and cared. I never said he should
> have been crying his guts out, but he seemed so uninterested by it, that
> it's unbelievable.
>
> (Besides... you don't know the history of psychiatry... I do!
> Kidding... )

LOL...I guess only scientologists know that!

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #243767 ]

Fr, 31 März 2006 03:59

nystulc

ergrtgth wrote:
> And I don't hate all of HBP, I was really disappointed in it, and there are
> certain elements that I hated like the points mentioned in my original post,
> I also didn't like any of the stuff with Ron and Hermione,

I rather liked that stuff actually.

> I didn't like any of the new characters like MacClagan, [...]

Well, you weren't supposed to like him, and AFAIK he may have already
come and gone and served his purpose.

> Emmily Vane (or whatever her name was) and the love potion, [...]

Romilda Vane, and she is barely even a character. She's just someone
we don't know who tried to slip Harry a love potion. Perhaps the
*idea* of love potions may have ongoing plot importance, but Romilda is
just a efficient device, who takes up no space at all.

> Slughorn, etc, and thought that at this point in the book introducing new characters is
> silly.

Hard to judge until we see where things are headed. But Slughorn is
the only significant character, of the three you've mentioned. And of
course a new "Head of Slytherin" was needed.

> HATED, HATED, HATED everything to do with Tonks and Lupin (two of my favorite 2nd
> tier characters).

There is more to this story than meets the eye. It gets too much
attention, too late in the series, with too little (visible) payoff or
justification. Something is going on!

> But I loved Fleur.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #243770 ]

Fr, 31 März 2006 05:17

nystulc

Jano wrote:
> ergrtgth wrote:
> > Yes, after the ministry fiasco, I would buy into the idea that most people
> > wouldn't take him seriously about anything else. But then again he had
> > proven himself to be right numerous other times. The ministry mistake was
> > more Dumbledore's than Harry's as well, so I don't think
> > his credibility should have completely ignored. Now the one problem with my
> > his being ignored argument is the fact that the Ministry did
> > reinvestigate the Malfoy estate.

An even greater problem is that we do not know what DD was up to. It
is hard, therefore, to complain of the mistakes in his plan.

> > But Dumbledore was completely irresponsible in how he handled Malfoy, he
> > allowed him to stay in the school even though he tried to
> > kill D, which would be all well and good if those attempts didn't almost
> > kill not one but TWO other students.

As opposed to what? These are dangerous times, in which "almost
killed" may fairly be considered a synonym for "not killed."
Meanwhile, there are alot of other deaths, not connected to Malfoy,
which DD has *not* succeeded in preventing.

> > At what point would Dumbledore had finally stood up and done something?

Better the devil you know than the one you don't know. DD had a bead
on Draco. If DD had acted against Draco, Voldy would have arranged the
murders of Draco and Narcissa, and then endangered more people in
coercing a new champion to carry out the plan. DD knows that Draco was
not chosen for his special abilities, but only as vengeance on Lucius
and as a recruiting mechanism.

And clearly DD has been doing something all along. We just don't know
what it is, because DD never got around to telling Harry. Who are you
to say it was not important?

> > After someone else actually died?

People have been dying. DD has been working hard to try to prevent
people dying. The only person who we know died, because DD's attention
was elsewhere, is DD himself. We do not know DD's strategy or how many
additional people would have died had DD acted differently.

> > Or another student or two or three more (after the first two attempts)
> > ended up at St. Mungos?

You know, you are absolutely right. These attempts must be stopped.
The only way to stop them is to kill Voldemort. Obviously, DD should
have been spending his time trying to defeat Voldemort instead of ...
uh.

> > I can understand D wanting to help Draco and maybe
> > even Snape get around the Vow, but to allow Draco to
> > continue his attempts, after he KNEW that two students almost DIED in those
> > attempts, is inexcuable and D should have been fired or removed from
> > Hogwarts for total incompetence at that point.

Well, I guess you have no complaints then. He was fired and removed
from Hogwarts.

You keep emphasizing that they almost died. But it is also true that
they were almost not put significant danger at all. You emphasize the
good luck of their survival, but ignore the bad luck of their having
been affected in the first place. You are selectively using hindsight
to pooh pooh a plan that, all in all, may have worked out for the best,
merely because it permits some danger to persist in times that we know
unavoidably contain great peril in any event.

> > What's worse was D didn't really seem
> > to care because he didn't think Draco would actually go
> > through with killing him.

False. On the Tower, DD says why he believes Draco will not kill him.
It is because Draco did not kill him immediately after disarming him.
Obviously, he did not know this beforehand, so this cannot explain why
DD did not act before.

> > D was so focused on saving Draco's "soul" that he
> > completely ignored the danger Draco presented - whether inadvertly or
> > not, to the rest of the student body.
>
> You're spot on. Furthermore, if he could hide Draco and his mother as he
> promised the fatal night, he could have done so sooner.

First, that text is not in the UK version and will not be in future
editions. Second, you do not know whether he could reasonably have
done it sooner.

> So I can't understand the excuse for not confronting Draco.

Yes, but why is that a problem? Surely you have realized there is a
mountain of information about DD's thinking that we do not understand,
because JKR has deliberately withheld it from us.

> Once an student got
> nearly killed, DD should have forced Draco and family out of the way.
>
> The only reason to maintain the statu quo I can see is that DD were
> aware of Snape's Vow and didn't want to trigger it. This would favor the
> "planned death" scenary, I suppose. On the other hand, the wording
> used by DD in the tower strongly feels to me like he were unaware. But
> then again, Harry knew of the Vow and presumably told to DD. Would DD
> discard this info as Harry paranoia? It seems foolish.

It seems obvious to me that DD knew about the vow. At the very least,
he had the information Harry provided him.

> Unless I'm missing something, there are contradictions in every scenary
> I can think of. This is not very promising unless book 7 can resolve it
> properly.
>
> My current thinking is: DD knew of the vow. The wording in the tower is
> unnatural just because it's a (forced) red herring on JKR part.

What red herring? What unnatural wording? While it *could* possibly
be read otherwise, the best interpretation about DD's words at this
point is that he is saying that Draco is wrong about whose side Snape
is on. He is not disagreeing about the unbreakable vow or this or that
detail about what Snape did or did not say. He is following his age
old policy of saying "I trust Snape" and refusing to explain the
details or comment on evidence for or against. Once again, as with
Harry, he refuses to comment on the information provided about the
unbreakable vow.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #243781 ]

Fr, 31 März 2006 10:54

dsueme

ergrtgth wrote:

> It seems like she's doing "twists for twists" sake instead of what are
> logical progressions,

Sometimes too true. I personally wasn't that disappointed in #5 until
the "Star Wars light saber duel" at the end. But frankly, I have found
that part of each book the least convincing.

> She's going to have a lot of work to do in Book 7.

Book six accomplished almost nothing. Those among us with IQ's over
room temperature have expected DD to die before the series ends. We
knew it was going to happen. Why does it take 700 pages?

Does Harry lose his virginity? I don't think so. The only thing that
happens is DD dies - and Snape is shown up for a rotter. Except it
isn't all that clear that Snape is in fact a rotter. That remains to
be seen in the next book. Indeed, she does have a lot left to do.

Dave

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #243804 ]

Fr, 31 März 2006 20:04

Frodo Baggins

My view, and I have mentioned this many times before, is that somewhere
after book 3, JK Rowling simply lost it. The pressure for producing
potboilers within the schedule and deadlines demanded by the publishers
was too much for her to write consistantly good stuff. She would surely
have been more inspired as a penniless penpusher. After Book 3, there
are numerous loopholes in the plot, too much gimmickery with each
successive one trying to outdo each of the previous ones, each book
after that was worse than its predecessor, character development has
turned out poor and all in all the fare has been disappointing.

So I fully agree with your summation of Book 6. There are many more
such incongruities all over Book 4, 5 and 6.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #243812 ]

Fr, 31 März 2006 21:48

ergrtgth

Personally I'm like you, when dealing with death. I awknowledge it and move
on. But as far as fictional story elements go, I wanted a little more.

Re: Half Blood Prince Major Letdown [message #243850 ]

Sa, 01 April 2006 08:56

nystulc

Frodo Baggins wrote:
> My view, and I have mentioned this many times before, is that somewhere
> after book 3, JK Rowling simply lost it.

Well, my opinion of the series started to rise after Book 3. It has
continued to be flawed and have rough edges, but overall, the direction
of the series seems a good one, and has raised my hopes that, in the
end, it will have turned more than a cut above the shallow, slightly
amusing trash I originally thought it was.

> The pressure for producing
> potboilers within the schedule and deadlines demanded by the publishers
> was too much for her to write consistantly good stuff.

Well, matters of opinion aside, I don't see how you can possibly that
she is simply cashing in, even if you don't like the latest in the
series. Seems to me that Rowling speaks truly when she says she is
following a particular artistic vision. That does not mean, of course,
that her effort will succeed as art or as good literature. But
clearly, if she had been interested merely in pleasing her fans and
publishers she could have written more books and shorter books that
stuck closer to the original formula.

> She would surely have been more inspired as a penniless penpusher.

Poverty is overrated, and is far more likely to put pressure on an
author to churn out books more quickly than he or she should, and to
pander to what the publisher thinks the fans expect, rather than
following his or her own artistic vision. But this scenario, however
grim, is actually that of a relatively fortunate artist who is
successful enough to have a steady publisher. The rest find the
poverty so oppressive that they are forced to abandon the task and seek
other work, or perhaps end up in mental hospitals when the shame of
poverty and failure overwhelm their sensitive artistic spirits.

> After Book 3, there
> are numerous loopholes in the plot, too much gimmickery with each
> successive one trying to outdo each of the previous ones, each book
> after that was worse than its predecessor, character development has
> turned out poor and all in all the fare has been disappointing.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, of course.

> So I fully agree with your summation of Book 6. There are many more
> such incongruities all over Book 4, 5 and 6.

I would be interested to hear them.

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