| GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239418] |
Fr, 24 März 2006 12:49 |
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We are introduced to portkeys near the beginning of GoF. Mr. Weasley
explains to Harry that it
is an ordinary object that is charmed to operate *at a given time*.
How did MoodyCrouch know exactly the time that Harry would touch the
goblet in the maze? How
did the the goblet work as a return portkey? Why would LV want it
charmed as a means of return
if he were going to kill Harry?
Just asking.
--
Enjoy,
Zolak of Twylo
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239426 ] |
Fr, 24 März 2006 16:26 |
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Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> We are introduced to portkeys near the beginning of GoF. Mr. Weasley
> explains to Harry that it
> is an ordinary object that is charmed to operate *at a given time*.
>
> How did MoodyCrouch know exactly the time that Harry would touch the
> goblet in the maze? How
> did the the goblet work as a return portkey? Why would LV want it
> charmed as a means of return
> if he were going to kill Harry?
>
> Just asking.
The first part is easy. Molly wasn't giving Harry a lesson on all port keys,
she was giving information on this port key. We find out later that all port
keys are not timed.
It make sense that this port keys was timed in case a muggle would come by
and touch it the day before.
The Triwizard Cup was charmed for the first one to touch it. What doesn't
make sense is why it was set for a return. But one possible reason it could
be set to return [besides Rowling need to get Harry back]...
Harry death or disappearance was suppose to look like an accident, no one
was suppose to know that LV came back. If Harry was missing and the
Triwizard Cup was missing then it would have been easy to figure out that
the Cup was a portkey and Harry was kidnapped. But if the Cup was sent back
people might think there was an accident.
BTW the Cup didn't do a return trip but sent him to a different location...
it sent him to the edge of the maze not where he got it.
Ken
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239429 ] |
Fr, 24 März 2006 16:58 |
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On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:49:56 GMT, Zolak of Twylo <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com>
wrote the following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
>
> We are introduced to portkeys near the beginning of GoF. Mr. Weasley
> explains to Harry that it
> is an ordinary object that is charmed to operate *at a given time*.
I don't think it's an inherrant property of a port-key to be that precise.
Rather it's a courtesy to the people who are using it, especially if there
are two or more groups, and a courtesy to the people who are expecting you,
espcially if they have to coordinate as many portkey arrivals as at the
World Cup.
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239436 ] |
Fr, 24 März 2006 20:02 |
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"Here in Minnesota" <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ecUUf.1$yD2.0 [at] newsfe11.phx...
> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
>> We are introduced to portkeys near the beginning of GoF. Mr. Weasley
>> explains to Harry that it
>> is an ordinary object that is charmed to operate *at a given time*.
>>
>> How did MoodyCrouch know exactly the time that Harry would touch the
>> goblet in the maze? How
>> did the the goblet work as a return portkey? Why would LV want it
>> charmed as a means of return
>> if he were going to kill Harry?
>>
>> Just asking.
>
> The first part is easy. Molly wasn't giving Harry a lesson on all port
> keys, she was giving information on this port key. We find out later that
> all port keys are not timed.
>
> It make sense that this port keys was timed in case a muggle would come by
> and touch it the day before.
>
> The Triwizard Cup was charmed for the first one to touch it. What doesn't
> make sense is why it was set for a return. But one possible reason it
> could be set to return [besides Rowling need to get Harry back]...
>
> Harry death or disappearance was suppose to look like an accident, no one
> was suppose to know that LV came back. If Harry was missing and the
> Triwizard Cup was missing then it would have been easy to figure out that
> the Cup was a portkey and Harry was kidnapped. But if the Cup was sent
> back people might think there was an accident.
>
> BTW the Cup didn't do a return trip but sent him to a different
> location... it sent him to the edge of the maze not where he got it.
>
> Ken
>
may be it is a law of magic that all port keys have to have a return for
them to work?
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239439 ] |
Fr, 24 März 2006 20:24 |
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> BTW the Cup didn't do a return trip but sent him to a different
location...
> it sent him to the edge of the maze not where he got it.
I figured that was how the peolpe watching would know who won...the goblet
would transport them to the area in front of the judges seats. If Harry was
holding the cup when he appeared they would assume he was dying from
injuries when he touched it. Of course if he was killed with the killing
curse it would be rather obvious to anyone looking at him. No injuries and
that stare on his face.
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239445 ] |
Fr, 24 März 2006 21:25 |
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"Zolak of Twylo" <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote in message =
news:2006032406495627544-dannythomas [at] walnutscom...
>=20
> We are introduced to portkeys near the beginning of GoF. Mr. Weasley=20
> explains to Harry that it
> is an ordinary object that is charmed to operate *at a given time*.
>=20
> How did MoodyCrouch know exactly the time that Harry would touch the=20
> goblet in the maze? How
> did the the goblet work as a return portkey? Why would LV want it=20
> charmed as a means of return
> if he were going to kill Harry?
>=20
> Just asking.
>=20
> --=20
> Enjoy,
>=20
> Zolak of Twylo
>
The easiest explanation is that there were 2 port key spells placed on
the trophy. One by DD one by Crouch Jr. Crouch Jr.s being the second
spell placed on the trophy is the first to activate. The evidence for =
this
is when the Trophy takes Harry back to Hogwarts from the graveyard
he appears in the front of the Maze where the spectators are he wasnt=20
returned to the middle of the maze where the Trophy originated.
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239450 ] |
Fr, 24 März 2006 22:05 |
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Here in Minnesota wrote:
> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> > We are introduced to portkeys near the beginning of GoF. Mr. Weasley
> > explains to Harry that it
> > is an ordinary object that is charmed to operate *at a given time*.
> >
> > How did MoodyCrouch know exactly the time that Harry would touch the
> > goblet in the maze? How
> > did the the goblet work as a return portkey? Why would LV want it
> > charmed as a means of return
> > if he were going to kill Harry?
> >
> > Just asking.
>
> The first part is easy. Molly wasn't giving Harry a lesson on all port keys,
> she was giving information on this port key. We find out later that all port
> keys are not timed.
>
> It make sense that this port keys was timed in case a muggle would come by
> and touch it the day before.
>
> The Triwizard Cup was charmed for the first one to touch it. What doesn't
> make sense is why it was set for a return. But one possible reason it could
> be set to return [besides Rowling need to get Harry back]...
>
> Harry death or disappearance was suppose to look like an accident, no one
> was suppose to know that LV came back. If Harry was missing and the
> Triwizard Cup was missing then it would have been easy to figure out that
> the Cup was a portkey and Harry was kidnapped. But if the Cup was sent back
> people might think there was an accident.
>
> BTW the Cup didn't do a return trip but sent him to a different location...
> it sent him to the edge of the maze not where he got it.
I always imagined that LV was going to send Harry's dead body back to
Hogwarts as a message that he was more powerful. That was his whole
idea with the duel in front of his Death Eaters.
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239455 ] |
Fr, 24 März 2006 22:09 |
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"Here in Minnesota" <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ecUUf.1$yD2.0 [at] newsfe11.phx...
> Harry death or disappearance was suppose to look like an accident, no one
> was suppose to know that LV came back. If Harry was missing and the
> Triwizard Cup was missing then it would have been easy to figure out that
> the Cup was a portkey and Harry was kidnapped. But if the Cup was sent
> back people might think there was an accident.
>
> BTW the Cup didn't do a return trip but sent him to a different
> location... it sent him to the edge of the maze not where he got it.
I always thought the edge of the maze was where the Cup was suppose to port
key to in the first place. It was always a port key to take the winner to
the viewing stands and judges, and Mad Eye just added an extra stop at the
graveyard first. Plus IIRC in the Book, Harry never realizes that the Cup
would return him to Hogwarts until his parent's tell him while his and LV
wands are magically linked together.
Moreover, if a Port Key is a common form of transportation, like a wizarding
world's equivalent of a bus, subway, or airplane, then it would only make
sense that they are two way (round trip) magic devices, possible with more
then one stop, just like a bus, train, or plane route.
Nuki Mouse
--
"This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
"Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it," S. Tallentyre, summarizing Voltaire's views.
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239504 ] |
Fr, 24 März 2006 20:11 |
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Here in Minnesota wrote:
> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
>> We are introduced to portkeys near the beginning of GoF. Mr. Weasley
>> explains to Harry that it is an ordinary object that is charmed to
>> operate *at a given time*.
>> How did MoodyCrouch know exactly the time that Harry would touch the
>> goblet in the maze? How
>> did the the goblet work as a return portkey? Why would LV want it
>> charmed as a means of return
>> if he were going to kill Harry?
>> Just asking.
> The first part is easy. Molly
Errr... Arthur, actually. ^_^
> wasn't giving Harry a lesson on all port keys, she was giving
> information on this port key. We find out later that all portkeys are
> not timed. It make sense that this port keys was timed in case a muggle
> would come by and touch it the day before.
> The Triwizard Cup was charmed for the first one to touch it. What
> doesn't make sense is why it was set for a return. But one possible
> reason it could be set to return [besides Rowling need to get Harry
> back]...
> Harry death or disappearance was suppose to look like an accident, no
> one was suppose to know that LV came back. If Harry was missing and the
> Triwizard Cup was missing then it would have been easy to figure out
> that the Cup was a portkey and Harry was kidnapped. But if the Cup was
> sent back people might think there was an accident.
> BTW the Cup didn't do a return trip but sent him to a different
> location... it sent him to the edge of the maze not where he got it.
A good explanation for this is that the cup was already charmed to take
the winner to the waiting audience. Barty thought he'd changed this to
make the cup go to the graveyard, but in fact his spell just pushed the
first one back a bit, to then take over when the cup was touched again.
Another explanation for this is that Rowling was writing for effect;
although chapter 31 ended brilliantly, it left the plot for the whole
book full of holes. We can stitch them up, but shouldn't have to.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239572 ] |
Sa, 25 März 2006 16:11 |
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Steve Szostek wrote:
> "Zolak of Twylo" <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote in message news:2006032406495627544-dannythomas [at] walnutscom...
>
>>We are introduced to portkeys near the beginning of GoF. Mr. Weasley
>>explains to Harry that it
>>is an ordinary object that is charmed to operate *at a given time*.
>>
>>How did MoodyCrouch know exactly the time that Harry would touch the
>>goblet in the maze? How
>>did the the goblet work as a return portkey? Why would LV want it
>>charmed as a means of return
>>if he were going to kill Harry?
>>
>>Just asking.
>>
>>--
>>Enjoy,
>>
>>Zolak of Twylo
>>
>
>
> The easiest explanation is that there were 2 port key spells placed on
> the trophy. One by DD one by Crouch Jr. Crouch Jr.s being the second
> spell placed on the trophy is the first to activate. The evidence for this
> is when the Trophy takes Harry back to Hogwarts from the graveyard
> he appears in the front of the Maze where the spectators are he wasnt
> returned to the middle of the maze where the Trophy originated.
>
>
>
Another explanation, had Voldemort killed Harry, he and his death eater
pals, could have used the portkey to get into Hogwarts? As we all know,
you can't apparate.
Though why the DE's waited two years.... I dunno...
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239595 ] |
Sa, 25 März 2006 20:34 |
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Simon Dean wrote:
> Steve Szostek wrote:
> > "Zolak of Twylo" <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote in message news:2006032406495627544-dannythomas [at] walnutscom...
> >
> >>We are introduced to portkeys near the beginning of GoF. Mr. Weasley
> >>explains to Harry that it
> >>is an ordinary object that is charmed to operate *at a given time*.
> >>
> >>How did MoodyCrouch know exactly the time that Harry would touch the
> >>goblet in the maze? How
> >>did the the goblet work as a return portkey? Why would LV want it
> >>charmed as a means of return
> >>if he were going to kill Harry?
> >>
> >>Just asking.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Enjoy,
> >>
> >>Zolak of Twylo
> >>
> >
> >
> > The easiest explanation is that there were 2 port key spells placed on
> > the trophy. One by DD one by Crouch Jr. Crouch Jr.s being the second
> > spell placed on the trophy is the first to activate. The evidence for this
> > is when the Trophy takes Harry back to Hogwarts from the graveyard
> > he appears in the front of the Maze where the spectators are he wasnt
> > returned to the middle of the maze where the Trophy originated.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Another explanation, had Voldemort killed Harry, he and his death eater
> pals, could have used the portkey to get into Hogwarts? As we all know,
> you can't apparate.
>
> Though why the DE's waited two years.... I dunno...
In GOF, page 688, Barty Crouch Jr. is telling DD that LV needed a
servant at Hogwarts to "...watch over Harry Potter. Ensure he reached
the Triwizard Cup. Turn the cup into a Portkey, which would take the
first person to touch it to my master..." Crouch,Jr. turned the cup
into a Portkey when he took the cup into the maze before dinner.
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239633 ] |
So, 26 März 2006 09:46 |
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wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Simon Dean wrote:
>
>>Steve Szostek wrote:
>>
>>>"Zolak of Twylo" <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote in message news:2006032406495627544-dannythomas [at] walnutscom...
>>>
>>>
>>>>We are introduced to portkeys near the beginning of GoF. Mr. Weasley
>>>>explains to Harry that it
>>>>is an ordinary object that is charmed to operate *at a given time*.
>>>>
>>>>How did MoodyCrouch know exactly the time that Harry would touch the
>>>>goblet in the maze? How
>>>>did the the goblet work as a return portkey? Why would LV want it
>>>>charmed as a means of return
>>>>if he were going to kill Harry?
>>>>
>>>>Just asking.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Enjoy,
>>>>
>>>>Zolak of Twylo
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The easiest explanation is that there were 2 port key spells placed on
>>>the trophy. One by DD one by Crouch Jr. Crouch Jr.s being the second
>>>spell placed on the trophy is the first to activate. The evidence for this
>>>is when the Trophy takes Harry back to Hogwarts from the graveyard
>>>he appears in the front of the Maze where the spectators are he wasnt
>>>returned to the middle of the maze where the Trophy originated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Another explanation, had Voldemort killed Harry, he and his death eater
>>pals, could have used the portkey to get into Hogwarts? As we all know,
>>you can't apparate.
>>
>>Though why the DE's waited two years.... I dunno...
>
>
>
> In GOF, page 688, Barty Crouch Jr. is telling DD that LV needed a
> servant at Hogwarts to "...watch over Harry Potter. Ensure he reached
> the Triwizard Cup. Turn the cup into a Portkey, which would take the
> first person to touch it to my master..." Crouch,Jr. turned the cup
> into a Portkey when he took the cup into the maze before dinner.
>
Yes, but the question is, why did the second curse remain? Some
postulate that it was just pushed back one turn...
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239658 ] |
So, 26 März 2006 14:32 |
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Simon Dean wrote:
> >
> >
> >
>
> Another explanation, had Voldemort killed Harry, he and his death eater
> pals, could have used the portkey to get into Hogwarts? As we all know,
> you can't apparate.
>
> Though why the DE's waited two years.... I dunno...
THAT makes more sense than anything else. What better victory for Voldy
and the DE's than to portkey right up to Dumbledore??!! Just the
instantaneous shock of seeing them all would give them the immediate
advantage.
M_m
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| Re: GoF - Logic Flaw [message #239736 ] |
Mo, 27 März 2006 03:32 |
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Steve Szostek wrote:
> "Zolak of Twylo" <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote in message news:2006032406495627544-dannythomas [at] walnutscom...
> >
> > We are introduced to portkeys near the beginning of GoF. Mr. Weasley
> > explains to Harry that it
> > is an ordinary object that is charmed to operate *at a given time*.
> >
> > How did MoodyCrouch know exactly the time that Harry would touch the
> > goblet in the maze? How
> > did the the goblet work as a return portkey? Why would LV want it
> > charmed as a means of return
> > if he were going to kill Harry?
> >
> > Just asking.
> >
> > --
> > Enjoy,
> >
> > Zolak of Twylo
> >
>
> The easiest explanation is that there were 2 port key spells placed on
> the trophy. One by DD one by Crouch Jr. Crouch Jr.s being the second
> spell placed on the trophy is the first to activate. The evidence for this
> is when the Trophy takes Harry back to Hogwarts from the graveyard
> he appears in the front of the Maze where the spectators are he wasnt
> returned to the middle of the maze where the Trophy originated.
That's my take on it as well. Other than the death eaters, no one was
supposed to know about Voldemort returning.
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