Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory

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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory

Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238720]

So, 19 März 2006 19:40

Steven Sousa

The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
horcrux. But I don't think the LV planned to use Harry's death to create
the final horcrux. He wanted Harry's dead body to be the final horcrux.
He planned to use the murder of James to split his soul, and he tried to
put his soul fragment in Harry just as he killed him. But as we know,
the AK spell didn't work, but the horcruxification did.

That explains the half of the prophecy that Harry can't live while LV
survives. As long as he's got LV's soul fragment in him, he will never
have a peaceful existence.

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238740 ]

So, 19 März 2006 21:54

drusilla

Steven Sousa escribió:
> The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
> horcrux. But I don't think the LV planned to use Harry's death to create
> the final horcrux. He wanted Harry's dead body to be the final horcrux.
> He planned to use the murder of James to split his soul, and he tried to
> put his soul fragment in Harry just as he killed him. But as we know,
> the AK spell didn't work, but the horcruxification did.
>
> That explains the half of the prophecy that Harry can't live while LV
> survives. As long as he's got LV's soul fragment in him, he will never
> have a peaceful existence.

The only that could (and I insist *could*) make sense to me in this
"Harry is a Horcrux" theories is that Harry will destroy all pieces of
LV's soul except two: the one we don't know and the one inside LV. Then,
a Dementor will suck LV's soul and the only piece left will be the bit
inside Harry, which will be destroyed when Harry dies after he lives a
happy life but that will cause him to never forget there is something of
LV inside him. So:
Harry destroy LV but don't kill him.
LV has his 'worst than dead' destiny.

Everybody's happy..., except those who want Harry dead.
(ANd I don't even believe my theory is possible, but it's not that
crazy, anyway)

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238746 ]

So, 19 März 2006 22:13

Lady Grey

Steven Sousa wrote:
> The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
> horcrux. But I don't think the LV planned to use Harry's death to create
> the final horcrux.

That would mean AD was wrong in his speculation... what woul be the
point of JKR showing us how AD deduced LV's motives only to contradict
it in the next book?

> He wanted Harry's dead body to be the final horcrux.
> He planned to use the murder of James to split his soul, and he tried to

So if James' murder was important enough for this purpose, why didn't
AD pick up on this importance? remember JKR uses AD to tell us how LV's
mind works....

> put his soul fragment in Harry just as he killed him. But as we know,
> the AK spell didn't work, but the horcruxification did.

Have you concidered that LV might have made harry a horcrux
accidentally?

> That explains the half of the prophecy that Harry can't live while LV
> survives. As long as he's got LV's soul fragment in him, he will never
> have a peaceful existence.

this i agree with. Harry will have to alleviate himself of LV's
soul-fragment before he can kill LV, this will mean that when harry
vanquishes LV he won't have the LV's abilities...

--
Jane Grey

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238749 ]

So, 19 März 2006 22:18

drusilla

Jane Grey escribió:
> Steven Sousa wrote:
>> The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
>> horcrux. But I don't think the LV planned to use Harry's death to create
>> the final horcrux.
>
> That would mean AD was wrong in his speculation... what woul be the
> point of JKR showing us how AD deduced LV's motives only to contradict
> it in the next book?
>
>> He wanted Harry's dead body to be the final horcrux.
>> He planned to use the murder of James to split his soul, and he tried to
>
> So if James' murder was important enough for this purpose, why didn't
> AD pick up on this importance? remember JKR uses AD to tell us how LV's
> mind works....
>
>> put his soul fragment in Harry just as he killed him. But as we know,
>> the AK spell didn't work, but the horcruxification did.
>
> Have you concidered that LV might have made harry a horcrux
> accidentally?
>

This is out of discussion: you don't cast Imperius nor Expelliarmus by
accident (unless you're six), these are intended Charms/Curses/Spells.
Making a Horcrux might need some sort of wand work that LV was aware of
at the moment he creates his Horcrux.

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238750 ]

So, 19 März 2006 22:21

Lady Grey

drusilla wrote:
> Steven Sousa escribi=F3:
> > The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
> > horcrux. But I don't think the LV planned to use Harry's death to create
> > the final horcrux. He wanted Harry's dead body to be the final horcrux.
> > He planned to use the murder of James to split his soul, and he tried to
> > put his soul fragment in Harry just as he killed him. But as we know,
> > the AK spell didn't work, but the horcruxification did.
> >
> > That explains the half of the prophecy that Harry can't live while LV
> > survives. As long as he's got LV's soul fragment in him, he will never
> > have a peaceful existence.
>
> The only that could (and I insist *could*) make sense to me in this
> "Harry is a Horcrux" theories is that Harry will destroy all pieces of

How about if harry destroys all LV's horcruxes and then comes for LV.
But LV informs harry that he himself is a horcrux (LV having figured
this out post-OftP... hence ordering his DEs not to touch harry). Harry
does a Switching spell on LV's soul fragment and Lily's protectio. This
leaves harry without LV's soulbit and LV without Lily's protection.
Harry could then burn LV to the ground =E1 la chapter The Man With Two
Faces in PS and thus vanquishing LV with the power of Love.

> LV's soul except two: the one we don't know and the one inside LV. Then,
> a Dementor will suck LV's soul and the only piece left will be the bit

I can't see how Harry is going to turn LV's natural allies aginast
him... the power of Love is not going to be winning over any
Dementers...

> inside Harry, which will be destroyed when Harry dies after he lives a
> happy life but that will cause him to never forget there is something of
> LV inside him. So:
> Harry destroy LV but don't kill him.
> LV has his 'worst than dead' destiny.

we don't know that LV has a worse than death destiny...

--
Jane Grey

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238752 ]

So, 19 März 2006 22:28

Lady Grey

drusilla wrote:
> Jane Grey escribi=F3:
> > Steven Sousa wrote:
> >> The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
> >> horcrux. But I don't think the LV planned to use Harry's death to crea=
te
> >> the final horcrux.
> >
> > That would mean AD was wrong in his speculation... what woul be the
> > point of JKR showing us how AD deduced LV's motives only to contradict
> > it in the next book?
> >
> >> He wanted Harry's dead body to be the final horcrux.
> >> He planned to use the murder of James to split his soul, and he tried =
to
> >
> > So if James' murder was important enough for this purpose, why didn't
> > AD pick up on this importance? remember JKR uses AD to tell us how LV's
> > mind works....
> >
> >> put his soul fragment in Harry just as he killed him. But as we know,
> >> the AK spell didn't work, but the horcruxification did.
> >
> > Have you concidered that LV might have made harry a horcrux
> > accidentally?
> >
>
> This is out of discussion: you don't cast Imperius nor Expelliarmus by
> accident (unless you're six), these are intended Charms/Curses/Spells.

i agree but those curses can get accidentally directed to the wrong
target.

> Making a Horcrux might need some sort of wand work that LV was aware of
> at the moment he creates his Horcrux.

yeah i agree, surely it does. But I'm suggesting that maybe this set of
events took place that night:
1. V kills lily
2. V sends AK on harry, the moment it hits harry, V sets about doing
the horcrux creating spell. he doesn't notice that harry didn't die
and that the AK rebounding.
3=2E V has magically taken his soulbit out of himself (not realising it
is the soulbit ripped as a result of Lily's murder) and is about to
bind it to the object he brought with him when the rebounded AK hits
him.
4=2E V loses control of the spell and his soulbit is directed towards
harry instead.
5=2E It enters harry (possibily leaving the lightening scar) and takes up
residence alongside harry's own soul, supplying harry with the traits
that the Hat saw in him when it said that he would do well in
Slytherin.=20

---
Jane Grey

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238765 ]

So, 19 März 2006 23:13

drusilla

Jane Grey escribió:
> drusilla wrote:
>> Steven Sousa escribió:
>>> The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
>>> horcrux. But I don't think the LV planned to use Harry's death to create
>>> the final horcrux. He wanted Harry's dead body to be the final horcrux.
>>> He planned to use the murder of James to split his soul, and he tried to
>>> put his soul fragment in Harry just as he killed him. But as we know,
>>> the AK spell didn't work, but the horcruxification did.
>>>
>>> That explains the half of the prophecy that Harry can't live while LV
>>> survives. As long as he's got LV's soul fragment in him, he will never
>>> have a peaceful existence.
>> The only that could (and I insist *could*) make sense to me in this
>> "Harry is a Horcrux" theories is that Harry will destroy all pieces of
>
> How about if harry destroys all LV's horcruxes and then comes for LV.
> But LV informs harry that he himself is a horcrux (LV having figured
> this out post-OftP... hence ordering his DEs not to touch harry). Harry
> does a Switching spell on LV's soul fragment and Lily's protectio. This
> leaves harry without LV's soulbit and LV without Lily's protection.
> Harry could then burn LV to the ground á la chapter The Man With Two
> Faces in PS and thus vanquishing LV with the power of Love.
>
>> LV's soul except two: the one we don't know and the one inside LV. Then,
>> a Dementor will suck LV's soul and the only piece left will be the bit
>
> I can't see how Harry is going to turn LV's natural allies aginast
> him... the power of Love is not going to be winning over any
> Dementers...

I don't say Harry will turn the Dementors againd LV, but rather than it
might be a theory that LV's soul ends up being sucked by one of them, in
a situation I haven't figure out how it might work yet.
But, even when DD said Dementors are LV's natural allies, I doubt they
are very willing to have a Master/Boss as the average DE. A soul is a
soul, after all and while Harry can perform a Patronus capable to put at
bay 100 Dementors, do we know LV can? Patronus need to have 'happy
thoughts', Does LV has even one real and pure moment that is able to
cast such a powerful spell made of positive energy?

>> inside Harry, which will be destroyed when Harry dies after he lives a
>> happy life but that will cause him to never forget there is something of
>> LV inside him. So:
>> Harry destroy LV but don't kill him.
>> LV has his 'worst than dead' destiny.

> we don't know that LV has a worse than death destiny...

But we know that's what he fears the most, wouldn't be ironic?=

>

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238769 ]

So, 19 März 2006 23:19

Froggy

"drusilla" <me [at] me.net> wrote in message news:dvkl2b$v66$1 [at] emma.aioe.org...
> Jane Grey escribió:
>> drusilla wrote:
>>> Steven Sousa escribió:
>>>> The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
>>>> horcrux. But I don't think the LV planned to use Harry's death to
>>>> create
>>>> the final horcrux. He wanted Harry's dead body to be the final horcrux.
>>>> He planned to use the murder of James to split his soul, and he tried
>>>> to
>>>> put his soul fragment in Harry just as he killed him. But as we know,
>>>> the AK spell didn't work, but the horcruxification did.
>>>>
>>>> That explains the half of the prophecy that Harry can't live while LV
>>>> survives. As long as he's got LV's soul fragment in him, he will never
>>>> have a peaceful existence.
>>> The only that could (and I insist *could*) make sense to me in this
>>> "Harry is a Horcrux" theories is that Harry will destroy all pieces of
>>
>> How about if harry destroys all LV's horcruxes and then comes for LV.
>> But LV informs harry that he himself is a horcrux (LV having figured
>> this out post-OftP... hence ordering his DEs not to touch harry). Harry
>> does a Switching spell on LV's soul fragment and Lily's protectio. This
>> leaves harry without LV's soulbit and LV without Lily's protection.
>> Harry could then burn LV to the ground á la chapter The Man With Two
>> Faces in PS and thus vanquishing LV with the power of Love.
>>
>>> LV's soul except two: the one we don't know and the one inside LV. Then,
>>> a Dementor will suck LV's soul and the only piece left will be the bit
>>
>> I can't see how Harry is going to turn LV's natural allies aginast
>> him... the power of Love is not going to be winning over any
>> Dementers...
>
> I don't say Harry will turn the Dementors againd LV, but rather than it
> might be a theory that LV's soul ends up being sucked by one of them, in a
> situation I haven't figure out how it might work yet.
> But, even when DD said Dementors are LV's natural allies, I doubt they are
> very willing to have a Master/Boss as the average DE. A soul is a soul,
> after all and while Harry can perform a Patronus capable to put at bay 100
> Dementors, do we know LV can? Patronus need to have 'happy thoughts', Does
> LV has even one real and pure moment that is able to cast such a powerful
> spell made of positive energy?

Maybe that is why the dementors are his allies? He has no happiness, no
hope that the dementors can suck out? IIRC they suck all the hope and
happiness out?
--
(*)(*)
(------)
Froggy

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238770 ]

So, 19 März 2006 23:24

Lady Grey

Froggy wrote:
<snip>
> Maybe that is why the dementors are his allies? He has no happiness, no
> hope that the dementors can suck out? IIRC they suck all the hope and
> happiness out?

i dunno, harry seemed to think LV was pretty escatic about freeing DEs
from Azkaban during OftP.

--
Jane Grey

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238775 ]

So, 19 März 2006 23:43

drusilla

Froggy escribió:
> "drusilla" <me [at] me.net> wrote in message news:dvkl2b$v66$1 [at] emma.aioe.org...
>> Jane Grey escribió:

>>> I can't see how Harry is going to turn LV's natural allies aginast
>>> him... the power of Love is not going to be winning over any
>>> Dementers...
>> I don't say Harry will turn the Dementors againd LV, but rather than it
>> might be a theory that LV's soul ends up being sucked by one of them, in a
>> situation I haven't figure out how it might work yet.
>> But, even when DD said Dementors are LV's natural allies, I doubt they are
>> very willing to have a Master/Boss as the average DE. A soul is a soul,
>> after all and while Harry can perform a Patronus capable to put at bay 100
>> Dementors, do we know LV can? Patronus need to have 'happy thoughts', Does
>> LV has even one real and pure moment that is able to cast such a powerful
>> spell made of positive energy?
>
>
> Maybe that is why the dementors are his allies? He has no happiness, no
> hope that the dementors can suck out? IIRC they suck all the hope and
> happiness out?

But they like people with unhappy thoughts, IICR, Lupin said something
liek that, that it was the reason they were after Harry more than other
people. If so, LV must be a great buffet-

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238777 ]

Mo, 20 März 2006 00:28

pooter

Steven Sousa [ssousa [at] adelphia.net] said
> The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
> horcrux.

As the scar is explained quite clearly in the first book, whatever you
think is wrong.

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238900 ]

Mo, 20 März 2006 20:10

zoltan47

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:40:33 -0500, Steven Sousa <ssousa [at] adelphia.net>
wrote:

>The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
>horcrux. But I don't think the LV planned to use Harry's death to create
>the final horcrux. He wanted Harry's dead body to be the final horcrux.
>He planned to use the murder of James to split his soul, and he tried to
>put his soul fragment in Harry just as he killed him. But as we know,
>the AK spell didn't work, but the horcruxification did.
>
{SNIP}

Wouldn't Harry's dead body decompose, thus destroying the vessel
holding the soul piece, ya know, the Horcrux? At least if you
speculated that Voldemort tried using Harry's living body you could
extend it to taking Harry and making sure he is healthy, though
eventually Harry would die and his body would still decompose.

Also, your theory implies that Voldemort knows Harry is a Horcrux. If
so, why has he tried to kill him? Wouldn't this destroy the Horcrux?

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238905 ]

Mo, 20 März 2006 22:29

Steven Sousa

zoltan47 wrote:

> Wouldn't Harry's dead body decompose, thus destroying the vessel
> holding the soul piece, ya know, the Horcrux? At least if you
> speculated that Voldemort tried using Harry's living body you could
> extend it to taking Harry and making sure he is healthy, though
> eventually Harry would die and his body would still decompose.

Not this skeleton, though.

> Also, your theory implies that Voldemort knows Harry is a Horcrux. If
> so, why has he tried to kill him? Wouldn't this destroy the Horcrux?

Perhaps that's exactly why he's trying to kill him. He can't stand the
thought that a piece of his soul is in the living body of an enemy.
After Harry's dead, LV can always make another horcrux.

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238906 ]

Mo, 20 März 2006 22:46

Lady Grey

pooter wrote:
> Steven Sousa [ssousa [at] adelphia.net] said
> > The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
> > horcrux.
>
> As the scar is explained quite clearly in the first book, whatever you
> think is wrong.

actually it is not that clear. In PS Hagrid said the following (note
JKR didn't have AD say it);

"You-Know-Who killed 'em. An' then -- an' this is the real myst'ry of
the thing -- he tried to kill you, too. Wanted ter make a clean job of
it, I suppose, or maybe he just liked killin' by then. But he couldn't
do it. Never wondered how you got that mark on yer forehead? That was
no
ordinary cut. That's what yeh get when a Powerful, evil curse touches
yeh -- took care of yer mum an' dad an' yer house, even -- but it
didn't
work on you, an' that's why yer famous, Harry. No one ever lived after
he decided ter kill 'em, no one except you, an' he'd killed some o' the
best witches an' wizards of the age -- the McKinnons, the Bones, the
Prewetts -- an' you was only a baby, an' you lived."

note that " Powerful, evil curse ", not just the killing curse, causes
such scars.

Another possiblilty (the one i'm more inclined to lean towards) is that
the killing curse did leave that scar on harry but then when the
horcrux-creating curse hit the newly created scar it was made a
horcrux.

--
Jane Grey

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238909 ]

Mo, 20 März 2006 23:08

wadkin2000

Jane Grey wrote:
> pooter wrote:
> > Steven Sousa [ssousa [at] adelphia.net] said
> > > The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
> > > horcrux.
> >
> > As the scar is explained quite clearly in the first book, whatever you
> > think is wrong.
>
> actually it is not that clear. In PS Hagrid said the following (note
> JKR didn't have AD say it);
>
> "You-Know-Who killed 'em. An' then -- an' this is the real myst'ry of
> the thing -- he tried to kill you, too. Wanted ter make a clean job of
> it, I suppose, or maybe he just liked killin' by then. But he couldn't
> do it. Never wondered how you got that mark on yer forehead? That was
> no
> ordinary cut. That's what yeh get when a Powerful, evil curse touches
> yeh -- took care of yer mum an' dad an' yer house, even -- but it
> didn't
> work on you, an' that's why yer famous, Harry. No one ever lived after
> he decided ter kill 'em, no one except you, an' he'd killed some o' the
> best witches an' wizards of the age -- the McKinnons, the Bones, the
> Prewetts -- an' you was only a baby, an' you lived."
>
> note that " Powerful, evil curse ", not just the killing curse, causes
> such scars.
>
> Another possiblilty (the one i'm more inclined to lean towards) is that
> the killing curse did leave that scar on harry but then when the
> horcrux-creating curse hit the newly created scar it was made a
> horcrux.
>
> --
> Jane Grey

It's amazing that the force of energy that emanated from the failed
curse destroyed the entire house!

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238921 ]

Di, 21 März 2006 00:37

Lady Grey

wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
<snip>
> It's amazing that the force of energy that emanated from the failed
> curse destroyed the entire house!

i don't think it can have, i mean no other instance of killing curse
that we have witnessed has caused that level of destruction. Maybe
james dodged a few AKs which caused the destruction.... or maybe Hagrid
is just wrong, which might increase the chance of the scar not being
caused by the killling curse rebounding, but by LV's soul fragment
entering harry.

--
Jane Grey

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238927 ]

Di, 21 März 2006 01:17

wadkin2000

Jane Grey wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> <snip>
> > It's amazing that the force of energy that emanated from the failed
> > curse destroyed the entire house!
>
> i don't think it can have, i mean no other instance of killing curse
> that we have witnessed has caused that level of destruction. Maybe
> james dodged a few AKs which caused the destruction.... or maybe Hagrid
> is just wrong, which might increase the chance of the scar not being
> caused by the killling curse rebounding, but by LV's soul fragment
> entering harry.
>
> --
> Jane Grey

You're right. There have been no other instances, but perhaps it's
because it never happened before. Maybe it's a combination of the
failed AK and the failed horcrux attempt that caused it.

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238948 ]

Di, 21 März 2006 03:24

dicconf

In article <1142897875.385733.48850 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
Jane Grey <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
><snip>
>> It's amazing that the force of energy that emanated from the failed
>> curse destroyed the entire house!
>
>i don't think it can have, i mean no other instance of killing curse
>that we have witnessed has caused that level of destruction. Maybe
>james dodged a few AKs which caused the destruction.... or maybe Hagrid
>is just wrong, which might increase the chance of the scar not being
>caused by the killling curse rebounding, but by LV's soul fragment
>entering harry.

Or maybe the energy that destroyed the house came from Harry doing
undirected magic as an infant who has just been hit by a powerful spell
and is very upset.

Petunia said if she left Harry alone in the house, she'd come back and
find the house in ruins. Harry had apparently heard it before, because
said "I won't blow up the house."

=Tamar

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #238981 ]

Di, 21 März 2006 09:42

Toon

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 14:10:56 -0500, zoltan47 <zoltan47 [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:40:33 -0500, Steven Sousa <ssousa [at] adelphia.net>
>wrote:
>
>>The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the scar is a
>>horcrux. But I don't think the LV planned to use Harry's death to create
>>the final horcrux. He wanted Harry's dead body to be the final horcrux.
>>He planned to use the murder of James to split his soul, and he tried to
>>put his soul fragment in Harry just as he killed him. But as we know,
>>the AK spell didn't work, but the horcruxification did.
>>
>{SNIP}
>
>Wouldn't Harry's dead body decompose, thus destroying the vessel
>holding the soul piece, ya know, the Horcrux? At least if you
>speculated that Voldemort tried using Harry's living body you could
>extend it to taking Harry and making sure he is healthy, though
>eventually Harry would die and his body would still decompose.
>
>Also, your theory implies that Voldemort knows Harry is a Horcrux. If
>so, why has he tried to kill him? Wouldn't this destroy the Horcrux?

He might not care? He might have hoped his Soul Bit would corrupt
Harry, and when it didn't it became an acceptable loss. He'd just
kill Harry, and use his death to create a new horcrux.

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239131 ]

Di, 21 März 2006 23:38

devnull

Steven Sousa wrote:
> zoltan47 wrote:
>
>> Wouldn't Harry's dead body decompose, thus destroying the vessel
>> holding the soul piece, ya know, the Horcrux? At least if you
>> speculated that Voldemort tried using Harry's living body you could
>> extend it to taking Harry and making sure he is healthy, though
>> eventually Harry would die and his body would still decompose.
>
>
> Not this skeleton, though.

Indeed. If I were V I would be delighted having the skull of the only
one profetized of being capable of kill me as my last horcrux. It gives
an interesting twist to the "to be or not to be" thing ;)

>> Also, your theory implies that Voldemort knows Harry is a Horcrux. If
>> so, why has he tried to kill him? Wouldn't this destroy the Horcrux?
>
>
> Perhaps that's exactly why he's trying to kill him. He can't stand the
> thought that a piece of his soul is in the living body of an enemy.
> After Harry's dead, LV can always make another horcrux.

Right. V can choose between

a) Have five horcruxes and the person who can kill him around.
b) Have four horcruxes.

For me, the election is easy, specially once the 'seven soul bits' no
longer applies after the diary destruction. And as you say, maybe he can
make more horcruxes afterwards (though this is a can of worms for the
book 7 plot).

--
Take the Snape polls: http://snape.mosteo.com [Updated 16/08]

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239236 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 15:29

Frodo Baggins

drusilla wrote

>... while Harry can perform a Patronus capable to put at
>bay 100 Dementors, do we know LV can? Patronus need to have 'happy
>thoughts', Does LV has even one real and pure moment that is able to
>cast such a powerful spell made of positive energy?

For LV, AKing Dumbledore could be a surpremely ecstatic thought. Maybe,
the Patronus could turn out to be a Dementorform, but it will certainly
work. Or there may be darker ways of controlling the Dementors which
are not used in "normal" magic. Heck, it is all up to Jo. She can
conjure anything up. In this game, only she holds the wand!!!

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239262 ]

Mi, 22 März 2006 23:14

wadkin2000

Frodo Baggins wrote:
> drusilla wrote
>
> >... while Harry can perform a Patronus capable to put at
> >bay 100 Dementors, do we know LV can? Patronus need to have 'happy
> >thoughts', Does LV has even one real and pure moment that is able to
> >cast such a powerful spell made of positive energy?
>
> For LV, AKing Dumbledore could be a surpremely ecstatic thought. Maybe,
> the Patronus could turn out to be a Dementorform, but it will certainly
> work. Or there may be darker ways of controlling the Dementors which
> are not used in "normal" magic. Heck, it is all up to Jo. She can
> conjure anything up. In this game, only she holds the wand!!!

Since Harry has this connection w/LV and can also speak Parseltongue,
wouldn't it be an interesting twist for Harry to be able to cast a
curse in Parseltongue, and when he does, it magnifies the effect of the
curse.

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239466 ]

Fr, 24 März 2006 23:21

DaveD

"Jano" <devnull [at] mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:44208050.3000909 [at] mailinator.com...
>
>
> Steven Sousa wrote:
> > zoltan47 wrote:
> >
> >> Wouldn't Harry's dead body decompose, thus destroying the vessel
> >> holding the soul piece, ya know, the Horcrux? At least if you
> >> speculated that Voldemort tried using Harry's living body you could
> >> extend it to taking Harry and making sure he is healthy, though
> >> eventually Harry would die and his body would still decompose.
> >
> >
> > Not this skeleton, though.
>
> Indeed. If I were V I would be delighted having the skull of the only
> one profetized of being capable of kill me as my last horcrux. It gives
> an interesting twist to the "to be or not to be" thing ;)
>
> >> Also, your theory implies that Voldemort knows Harry is a Horcrux. If
> >> so, why has he tried to kill him? Wouldn't this destroy the Horcrux?
> >
> >
> > Perhaps that's exactly why he's trying to kill him. He can't stand the
> > thought that a piece of his soul is in the living body of an enemy.
> > After Harry's dead, LV can always make another horcrux.
>
> Right. V can choose between
>
> a) Have five horcruxes and the person who can kill him around.
> b) Have four horcruxes.
>
> For me, the election is easy, specially once the 'seven soul bits' no
> longer applies after the diary destruction. And as you say, maybe he can
> make more horcruxes afterwards (though this is a can of worms for the
> book 7 plot).

I recently finished rereading CoS and my take is that Voldy was intending to
kill Harry so as to create a horcrux (ISTR it says that somewhere). I don't
see why you'd use a dead body - unless the horcrux would re-enervate it
after the body was dead, so Harry's soul would be killed, and his body would
be taken over by the piece of Voldy's soul (sort of like an intelligent
version of the zombies in HBP). If so, Voldy would have eliminated the
threat (remember the half of the prophecy he heard about) AND would have a
new horcrux, although I'm not sure he'd want the competition from another
wizard, even if it was another aspect of himself! And what better container
for a horcrux than the person who was prophesied to be his possible nemesis?
I'm sure Voldy would love the irony.

However, as we know, Lily's love protected Harry and the avada kedavra
backfired, hitting Voldy. But my suspicion is the horcrux had already been
started and so the horcrux was still created in Harry. Which brings the full
prophecy into being with a twist, which will make the 7th book so
interesting: Voldy won't want to kill Harry because of the horcrux if it can
be rescued, but if push comes to shove and Harry's about to kill him, Voldy
will have to kill Harry and lose (what will by then be the last, no doubt)
horcrux - but at least he himself will have survived.

From Harry's perspective, the conundrum is that even if he kills Voldy,
because he is the last horcrux, there'll still be a bit of Voldy left in
him - so how does he kill the (last) horcrux without also killing himself?
For that matter, even if he does kill himself, that might allow the horcrux
to take over as Voldy had originally intended. Is there some magic to
dehorcrux himself without killing himself?

His mother's love helped protect him the first time but with Harry's blood
in Voldy, that's now gone - so who is there now? Dd is gone, Sirius is gone,
Mrs Weasley - doubtful! I can think of one final twist though: at the end,
Snape is ordered to kill Harry by Voldy. But Snape looks at Harry and sees
Lily's eyes so can't kill him, because he remembers loving Lily. When Voldy
realises Snape isn't going to kill Harry, events repeat themselves, except
this time he first kills Snape who dies trying to protect Harry, because of
his memory of Lily, then turns to kill Harry himself. But Snape's death due
to his love for Lily now saves Harry in the same way as his mother's love
and tragic death did before and again the avada kedavra rebounds, killing
that incarnation of Voldy. This activates the horcrux in Harry but Snape's
love in Harry's blood kills the horcrux as his mother's love so nearly did
in CoS (Voldy disliked possessing him, whereas he had no such problem with
Ginny). And JKR did say Harry doesn't have to kill him, so this love would
fit the bill for the means by which Harry "vanquishes" the dark lord without
actively killing him.

So, that's the synopsis of the 7th book - who's next?!!

DaveD

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239470 ]

Fr, 24 März 2006 23:51

Lady Grey

DaveD wrote:
<snip>
> However, as we know, Lily's love protected Harry and the avada kedavra
> backfired, hitting Voldy. But my suspicion is the horcrux had already been
> started and so the horcrux was still created in Harry. Which brings the full

yes this is exactly what i think happened! i think LV had just started
the horcrux creating spell when the AK rebounded upon him, causing the
horcrux creating spell to be misdirected at harry (rather than the
object LV must have brought with him).

> prophecy into being with a twist, which will make the 7th book so
> interesting: Voldy won't want to kill Harry because of the horcrux if it can
> be rescued, but if push comes to shove and Harry's about to kill him, Voldy
> will have to kill Harry and lose (what will by then be the last, no doubt)
> horcrux - but at least he himself will have survived.

i think this is the reason LV will want to kill harry regardless of
whether he has realised that harry is an accidental horcrux.

> From Harry's perspective, the conundrum is that even if he kills Voldy,
> because he is the last horcrux, there'll still be a bit of Voldy left in
> him - so how does he kill the (last) horcrux without also killing himself?
> For that matter, even if he does kill himself, that might allow the horcrux
> to take over as Voldy had originally intended. Is there some magic to
> dehorcrux himself without killing himself?

Maybe Harry will do the Switching Spell to alleviate himself of LV's
soul fragment. Then harry will have to kill LV as just himself, without
LV's powers.

> His mother's love helped protect him the first time but with Harry's blood
> in Voldy, that's now gone - so who is there now? Dd is gone, Sirius is gone,
> Mrs Weasley - doubtful! I can think of one final twist though: at the end,
> Snape is ordered to kill Harry by Voldy. But Snape looks at Harry and sees
> Lily's eyes so can't kill him, because he remembers loving Lily. When Voldy

ergh! <gags>

I think Snape has always been on AD's side (as long as harry had been
alive, that is) and he undoubtedly has a part to play in defeating
harry. but i doubt that will have anything to do with Lily.

--
Jane Grey

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239482 ]

Sa, 25 März 2006 00:28

Lady Grey

wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Frodo Baggins wrote:
> > drusilla wrote
> >
> > >... while Harry can perform a Patronus capable to put at
> > >bay 100 Dementors, do we know LV can? Patronus need to have 'happy
> > >thoughts', Does LV has even one real and pure moment that is able to
> > >cast such a powerful spell made of positive energy?
> >
> > For LV, AKing Dumbledore could be a surpremely ecstatic thought. Maybe,
> > the Patronus could turn out to be a Dementorform, but it will certainly
> > work. Or there may be darker ways of controlling the Dementors which
> > are not used in "normal" magic. Heck, it is all up to Jo. She can
> > conjure anything up. In this game, only she holds the wand!!!
>
>
> Since Harry has this connection w/LV and can also speak Parseltongue,
> wouldn't it be an interesting twist for Harry to be able to cast a
> curse in Parseltongue, and when he does, it magnifies the effect of the
> curse.

maybe that is the reason Snakes and Parseltongues are associated with
dark magic. But i can't see JKR taking harry down the dark magic
path...

--
Jane Grey

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239497 ]

Sa, 25 März 2006 02:34

drusilla

Jane Grey escribió:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> Frodo Baggins wrote:
>>> drusilla wrote
>>>
>>>> ... while Harry can perform a Patronus capable to put at
>>>> bay 100 Dementors, do we know LV can? Patronus need to have 'happy
>>>> thoughts', Does LV has even one real and pure moment that is able to
>>>> cast such a powerful spell made of positive energy?
>>> For LV, AKing Dumbledore could be a surpremely ecstatic thought. Maybe,
>>> the Patronus could turn out to be a Dementorform, but it will certainly
>>> work. Or there may be darker ways of controlling the Dementors which
>>> are not used in "normal" magic. Heck, it is all up to Jo. She can
>>> conjure anything up. In this game, only she holds the wand!!!
>>
>> Since Harry has this connection w/LV and can also speak Parseltongue,
>> wouldn't it be an interesting twist for Harry to be able to cast a
>> curse in Parseltongue, and when he does, it magnifies the effect of the
>> curse.

Parseltongue is some sort of language and, AFAIK, spells and charms must
be said in Latin, otherwise, saying A-fa-va-fa-da-fa Ke-fe-da-fa-bra-fa
might work.

> maybe that is the reason Snakes and Parseltongues are associated with
> dark magic. But i can't see JKR taking harry down the dark magic
> path...

The whole series is about choices, and Harry's choice was the Good Side.
Even when he had tried twice the Unforgivable curses, it's hard for him
as he didn't really mean them. So, nope.
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
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Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239549 ]

Sa, 25 März 2006 14:06

Lady Grey

wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
> > wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > It's amazing that the force of energy that emanated from the failed
> > > curse destroyed the entire house!
> >
> > i don't think it can have, i mean no other instance of killing curse
> > that we have witnessed has caused that level of destruction. Maybe
> > james dodged a few AKs which caused the destruction.... or maybe Hagrid
> > is just wrong, which might increase the chance of the scar not being
> > caused by the killling curse rebounding, but by LV's soul fragment
> > entering harry.
> >
> > --
> > Jane Grey
>
>
> You're right. There have been no other instances, but perhaps it's
> because it never happened before. Maybe it's a combination of the
> failed AK and the failed horcrux attempt that caused it.

well we have seen that AK's hitting inanimate objects causes a lot of
destruction but the AK hit LV so why would that cause destruction? if
the horcrux attempt failed then surely that would cause LV's soulbit to
be put into something else, other than the object he intended? it
doesn't seem like the natural conclusion to think that failed horcrux
creating spells cause things to blow up.

nah, the destruction surely must have been caused by AKs missing James?

--
Jane Grey

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239553 ]

Sa, 25 März 2006 14:10

Lady Grey

Richard Eney wrote:
> In article <1142897875.385733.48850 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
> Jane Grey <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> It's amazing that the force of energy that emanated from the failed
> >> curse destroyed the entire house!
> >
> >i don't think it can have, i mean no other instance of killing curse
> >that we have witnessed has caused that level of destruction. Maybe
> >james dodged a few AKs which caused the destruction.... or maybe Hagrid
> >is just wrong, which might increase the chance of the scar not being
> >caused by the killling curse rebounding, but by LV's soul fragment
> >entering harry.
>
> Or maybe the energy that destroyed the house came from Harry doing
> undirected magic as an infant who has just been hit by a powerful spell
> and is very upset.

yeah that sounds plausible.

> Petunia said if she left Harry alone in the house, she'd come back and
> find the house in ruins. Harry had apparently heard it before, because
> said "I won't blow up the house."

heh, i like how you've connected those dots! i am wondering if exactly
how the house got blown up is going to become a major plot point in the
next book, and why did JKR have Hagrid imply that the rebounding AK
caused it? surely it coudln't have because it didn't rebound all over
the place before getting LV, it rebounded directly on LV...

--
Jane Grey

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239560 ]

Sa, 25 März 2006 14:52

DaveD

"Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1143240697.817178.27660 [at] i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> DaveD wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > His mother's love helped protect him the first time but with Harry's
blood
> > in Voldy, that's now gone - so who is there now? Dd is gone, Sirius is
gone,
> > Mrs Weasley - doubtful! I can think of one final twist though: at the
end,
> > Snape is ordered to kill Harry by Voldy. But Snape looks at Harry and
sees
> > Lily's eyes so can't kill him, because he remembers loving Lily. When
Voldy
>
> ergh! <gags>

Yeah, even I thought that one was a longshot - yukkk, lol

> I think Snape has always been on AD's side (as long as harry had been
> alive, that is) and he undoubtedly has a part to play in defeating
> harry. but i doubt that will have anything to do with Lily.

Well they do keep going on about Harry having Lily's eyes - to me, it seems
more than just symbolic of her love for Harry, which is why I suspected they
may bring back memories to Snape. (Yukky though the idea is!) Any ideas on
what else (other than motherly love) the constant references to Harry having
her eyes might refer to?

DaveD

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239566 ]

Sa, 25 März 2006 15:26

Lady Grey

DaveD wrote:
<snip>
> Well they do keep going on about Harry having Lily's eyes - to me, it seems
> more than just symbolic of her love for Harry, which is why I suspected they
> may bring back memories to Snape. (Yukky though the idea is!) Any ideas on
> what else (other than motherly love) the constant references to Harry having
> her eyes might refer to?

Well Toon suggested a while ago, and i'm inclined to agree that it
could be just so that harry and the readers could know it was Lily when
she said;

'Leave him ALONE!'

James and Sirius looked round. James's free hand immediately jumped to
his hair.

It was one of the girls from the lake edge. She had thick, dark red
hair that fell to her shoulders, and startlingly green almond-shaped
eyes - Harry's eyes.

Harry's mother.

'Leave him ALONE!'

James and Sirius looked round. James's free hand immediately jumped to
his hair.

It was one of the girls from the lake edge. She had thick, dark red
hair that fell to her shoulders, and startlingly green almond-shaped
eyes - Harry's eyes.

Harry's mother.

'All right, Evans?' said James, and the tone of his voice was suddenly
pleasant, deeper, more mature.
----------------------

Remember that we didn't know Lily's maiden name at that point via the
books, only because JKR was asked about it in an interview.

Other things that have been suggested is that it is a methaphor. That
harry got his compassion from Lily, that he ''sees' people differently
e.g. Most at hogwarts thinks Luna is Loony and Harry sees beyond that
and sees more to her than that. but i'm not so convinced of this but if
it is true i doubt it's snape related... maybe while the others mocked
Peter a bit, Lily was nicer to him and this promtped Peter to ask LV to
spare Lily (because she didn't have to die) and this in turn allowed
Lily to leave that protection in harry...

--
Jane Grey

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239570 ]

Sa, 25 März 2006 15:43

Lady Grey

DaveD wrote:
<snip>
> Well they do keep going on about Harry having Lily's eyes - to me, it seems
> more than just symbolic of her love for Harry, which is why I suspected they
> may bring back memories to Snape. (Yukky though the idea is!) Any ideas on
> what else (other than motherly love) the constant references to Harry having
> her eyes might refer to?

Well Toon suggested a while ago, and i'm inclined to agree that it
could be just so that harry and the readers could know it was Lily when

she said;

'Leave him ALONE!'

James and Sirius looked round. James's free hand immediately jumped to
his hair.

It was one of the girls from the lake edge. She had thick, dark red
hair that fell to her shoulders, and startlingly green almond-shaped
eyes - Harry's eyes.

Harry's mother.

'All right, Evans?' said James, and the tone of his voice was suddenly
pleasant, deeper, more mature.
----------------------

Remember that we didn't know Lily's maiden name at that point via the
books, only because JKR was asked about it in an interview.

Other things that have been suggested is that it is a methaphor. That
harry got his compassion from Lily, that he ''sees' people differently
e.g. Most at hogwarts thinks Luna is Loony and Harry sees beyond that
and sees more to her than that. but i'm not so convinced of this but if

it is true i doubt it's snape related... maybe while the others mocked
Peter a bit, Lily was nicer to him and this promtped Peter to ask LV to

spare Lily (because she didn't have to die) and this in turn allowed
Lily to leave that protection in harry...

--
Jane Grey

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239627 ]

So, 26 März 2006 06:15

Kish

Jane Grey wrote:

> nah, the destruction surely must have been caused by AKs missing James?
Only Imperial Stormtroopers and Lord Voldemort are so precise.

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239634 ]

So, 26 März 2006 10:46

Toon

On 25 Mar 2006 05:06:41 -0800, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

>well we have seen that AK's hitting inanimate objects causes a lot of
>destruction but the AK hit LV so why would that cause destruction? if
>the horcrux attempt failed then surely that would cause LV's soulbit to
>be put into something else, other than the object he intended? it
>doesn't seem like the natural conclusion to think that failed horcrux
>creating spells cause things to blow up.
>

Right, and it makes no sense for a back blasted Ak to transfer
anything of Voldie into Harry. powers; abilities; mind link, Soul
Bits. Whatever your fiance. it makes no sense, and one Is till can't
accept. maybe if we knew something of Harry's went into V back then
fine.

And really, the Soul Bit network system makes the most sense for Harry
and V going into each other's minds. The soul is the connection. Juts
as it can keep V anchored to the living world as long as it exists,
even miles away, ditto mind melding with Harry.

Re: Another "Scar = Horcrux" theory [message #239635 ]

So, 26 März 2006 10:47

Toon

On 25 Mar 2006 05:10:53 -0800, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

>Richard Eney wrote:
>> In article <1142897875.385733.48850 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
>> Jane Grey <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> >wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> ><snip>
>> >> It's amazing that the force of energy that emanated from the failed
>> >> curse destroyed the entire house!
>> >
>> >i don't think it can have, i mean no other instance of killing curse
>> >that we have witnessed has caused that level of destruction. Maybe
>> >james dodged a few AKs which caused the destruction.... or maybe Hagrid
>> >is just wrong, which might increase the chance of the scar not being
>> >caused by the killling curse rebounding, but by LV's soul fragment
>> >entering harry.
>>
>> Or maybe the energy that destroyed the house came from Harry doing
>> undirected magic as an infant who has just been hit by a powerful spell
>> and is very upset.
>
>yeah that sounds plausible.
>
>> Petunia said if she left Harry alone in the house, she'd come back and
>> find the house in ruins. Harry had apparently heard it before, because
>> said "I won't blow up the house."
>
>heh, i like how you've connected those dots! i am wondering if exactly
>how the house got blown up is going to become a major plot point in the
>next book, and why did JKR have Hagrid imply that the rebounding AK
>caused it? surely it coudln't have because it didn't rebound all over
>the place before getting LV, it rebounded directly on LV...

That all makes sense. How did we all miss that?

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