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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Prophecy meaning
Prophecy meaning [message #238594] Sa, 18 März 2006 23:46
wadkin2000  
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to
those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and
the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the
Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for
neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to
vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... I've
been looking through old posts (very old posts!) about various meanings
and theories. I didn't notice if this has been posted. If I'm
rehashing this particular theory, I'm sorry! IMO, when I first read
the prophecy, I thought it was pretty straight forward (I guess I
wasn't wearing my Sherlock Holmes hat). At the time, I understood it to
mean, simplistically, that Harry had the power to vanquish Voldie and
either Harry would have to kill Voldemort or vice versa. However, now
that we're six books into the series, a new interpretation occurred to
me (and again, if someone else has already mentioned it, I apologize
and only have my "aging faculties" to blame for being slow on the
uptake). Well, maybe not "aging" faculties...but perhaps "slow on the
uptake" might be correct! My theory is this: "...and either (Harry or
Voldemort) must die 'at the hand of the other' (Peter Pettigrew) for
neither (Harry or Voldemort) can live while the other (Peter Pettigrew)
survives..." I'm mentioning this theory because JK has been asked,
"Will Wormtail ever pay Harry back?" and she replied, "You'll
see...keep reading!" and "Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over
to Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body?" and she
answered, "No. Can't say anymore than that." Both quotes are taken
from the March 2004 "World Book Day" chat. She has also said that the
prophecy did not include Neville and that she and Madam Trelawney had
both worded the prophecy "very carefully". Harry was born with the
"power" to vanquish Voldemort. However, that doesn't necessarily mean
that he is the one who will ultimately do the deed. Wormtail does owe
this debt to Harry (I think I read somewhere that Jo said something
about Voldemort not wanting someone in his employ who had a debt to
Harry). I know how Dumbledore explained the prophecy to Harry, but I'm
only mentioning an alternative, that in my mind, could be plausible.
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238599 ] So, 19 März 2006 00:35
Thomas Madura  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to
> those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and
> the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the
> Dark Lord knows not...

AHA - in GOF RIddle states that he should have remebered about the
ANCIENT magic that protected Harry. That means he KNEW about it - at
least at some point in time before he tried to kill Harry.

That would IMPLY - that Harry still has some other MAGIC that Riddle
does not know about at all - YET.









and either must die at the hand of the other for
> neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to
> vanquish the Dark Lord


Dumbledore used the word Vanquish when he talked about Riddle with Harry
near the end of OOP. WHile I believe this is a MISTAKE of JKRs - or a
poor choice of words - it is possible that she meant to use the word and
that VANQUISH does not mean "kill". BUt - it MIGHT also mean that
Harry's blood can only sustain ONE life force - and by using Harry's
Blood to revive himself - Riddle may have doomed himself as long as
Harry lives.




will be born as the seventh month dies... I've
> been looking through old posts (very old posts!) about various meanings
> and theories. I didn't notice if this has been posted. If I'm
> rehashing this particular theory, I'm sorry! IMO, when I first read
> the prophecy, I thought it was pretty straight forward (I guess I
> wasn't wearing my Sherlock Holmes hat). At the time, I understood it to
> mean, simplistically, that Harry had the power to vanquish Voldie and
> either Harry would have to kill Voldemort or vice versa. However, now
> that we're six books into the series, a new interpretation occurred to
> me (and again, if someone else has already mentioned it, I apologize
> and only have my "aging faculties" to blame for being slow on the
> uptake). Well, maybe not "aging" faculties...but perhaps "slow on the
> uptake" might be correct! My theory is this: "...and either (Harry or
> Voldemort) must die 'at the hand of the other' (Peter Pettigrew) for
> neither (Harry or Voldemort) can live while the other (Peter Pettigrew)
> survives..." I'm mentioning this theory because JK has been asked,
> "Will Wormtail ever pay Harry back?" and she replied, "You'll
> see...keep reading!" and "Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over
> to Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body?" and she
> answered, "No. Can't say anymore than that." Both quotes are taken
> from the March 2004 "World Book Day" chat. She has also said that the
> prophecy did not include Neville and that she and Madam Trelawney had
> both worded the prophecy "very carefully". Harry was born with the
> "power" to vanquish Voldemort. However, that doesn't necessarily mean
> that he is the one who will ultimately do the deed. Wormtail does owe
> this debt to Harry (I think I read somewhere that Jo said something
> about Voldemort not wanting someone in his employ who had a debt to
> Harry). I know how Dumbledore explained the prophecy to Harry, but I'm
> only mentioning an alternative, that in my mind, could be plausible.
>
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238604 ] So, 19 März 2006 01:43
Brent Braten  
<wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142721999.918134.173390 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to
> those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and
> the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the
> Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for
> neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to
> vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... I've
> been looking through old posts (very old posts!) about various meanings
> and theories. I didn't notice if this has been posted. If I'm
> rehashing this particular theory, I'm sorry! IMO, when I first read
> the prophecy, I thought it was pretty straight forward (I guess I
> wasn't wearing my Sherlock Holmes hat). At the time, I understood it to
> mean, simplistically, that Harry had the power to vanquish Voldie and
> either Harry would have to kill Voldemort or vice versa. However, now
> that we're six books into the series, a new interpretation occurred to
> me (and again, if someone else has already mentioned it, I apologize
> and only have my "aging faculties" to blame for being slow on the
> uptake). Well, maybe not "aging" faculties...but perhaps "slow on the
> uptake" might be correct! My theory is this: "...and either (Harry or
> Voldemort) must die 'at the hand of the other' (Peter Pettigrew) for
> neither (Harry or Voldemort) can live while the other (Peter Pettigrew)
> survives..." I'm mentioning this theory because JK has been asked,
> "Will Wormtail ever pay Harry back?" and she replied, "You'll
> see...keep reading!" and "Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over
> to Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body?" and she
> answered, "No. Can't say anymore than that." Both quotes are taken
> from the March 2004 "World Book Day" chat. She has also said that the
> prophecy did not include Neville and that she and Madam Trelawney had
> both worded the prophecy "very carefully". Harry was born with the
> "power" to vanquish Voldemort. However, that doesn't necessarily mean
> that he is the one who will ultimately do the deed. Wormtail does owe
> this debt to Harry (I think I read somewhere that Jo said something
> about Voldemort not wanting someone in his employ who had a debt to
> Harry). I know how Dumbledore explained the prophecy to Harry, but I'm
> only mentioning an alternative, that in my mind, could be plausible.
>
Actually I mentioned this particular theory - thwat Worntail's life debt to
Harry would come into play when it comes down to it - but was sumarilly shot
down as it being a stupid idea. Of course, they said that about Draco
taking the dark mark in book six too as they (the vast majority of those who
are regulars here) didn't think Voldemort would be recruiting stuents any
time soon. I tend to agree with you in that, in my opinion, "The Hand"
mentioned in the prophecy is a certain silver hand attached to the arm of a
certain traitor.

BB
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238606 ] So, 19 März 2006 01:47
wadkin2000  
Brent Braten wrote:
> <wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1142721999.918134.173390 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to
> > those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and
> > the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the
> > Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for
> > neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to
> > vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... I've
> > been looking through old posts (very old posts!) about various meanings
> > and theories. I didn't notice if this has been posted. If I'm
> > rehashing this particular theory, I'm sorry! IMO, when I first read
> > the prophecy, I thought it was pretty straight forward (I guess I
> > wasn't wearing my Sherlock Holmes hat). At the time, I understood it to
> > mean, simplistically, that Harry had the power to vanquish Voldie and
> > either Harry would have to kill Voldemort or vice versa. However, now
> > that we're six books into the series, a new interpretation occurred to
> > me (and again, if someone else has already mentioned it, I apologize
> > and only have my "aging faculties" to blame for being slow on the
> > uptake). Well, maybe not "aging" faculties...but perhaps "slow on the
> > uptake" might be correct! My theory is this: "...and either (Harry or
> > Voldemort) must die 'at the hand of the other' (Peter Pettigrew) for
> > neither (Harry or Voldemort) can live while the other (Peter Pettigrew)
> > survives..." I'm mentioning this theory because JK has been asked,
> > "Will Wormtail ever pay Harry back?" and she replied, "You'll
> > see...keep reading!" and "Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over
> > to Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body?" and she
> > answered, "No. Can't say anymore than that." Both quotes are taken
> > from the March 2004 "World Book Day" chat. She has also said that the
> > prophecy did not include Neville and that she and Madam Trelawney had
> > both worded the prophecy "very carefully". Harry was born with the
> > "power" to vanquish Voldemort. However, that doesn't necessarily mean
> > that he is the one who will ultimately do the deed. Wormtail does owe
> > this debt to Harry (I think I read somewhere that Jo said something
> > about Voldemort not wanting someone in his employ who had a debt to
> > Harry). I know how Dumbledore explained the prophecy to Harry, but I'm
> > only mentioning an alternative, that in my mind, could be plausible.
> >
> Actually I mentioned this particular theory - thwat Worntail's life debt to
> Harry would come into play when it comes down to it - but was sumarilly shot
> down as it being a stupid idea. Of course, they said that about Draco
> taking the dark mark in book six too as they (the vast majority of those who
> are regulars here) didn't think Voldemort would be recruiting stuents any
> time soon. I tend to agree with you in that, in my opinion, "The Hand"
> mentioned in the prophecy is a certain silver hand attached to the arm of a
> certain traitor.
>
> BB


I knew somehow that Wormtail's debt to Harry would obviously play into
the scenario somewhat, but it wasn't until I really thought about the
prophecy, that, in my mind, it played as large a part.
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238639 ] So, 19 März 2006 07:58
rc  
Brent Braten wrote:
I tend to agree with you in that, in my opinion, "The Hand"
> mentioned in the prophecy is a certain silver hand attached to the arm of a
> certain traitor.
>
> BB

I think so too. It is the first thing I thought of when I read the
prophecy in the book. But, it says "one must die by the hand of the
other" wouldn't that mean the hand is really Voldermort's and it will
kill Harry?

RC
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238649 ] So, 19 März 2006 09:24
Toon  
On 18 Mar 2006 14:46:40 -0800, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to
>those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and
>the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the
>Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for
>neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to
>vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... I've
>been looking through old posts (very old posts!) about various meanings
>and theories. I didn't notice if this has been posted. If I'm
>rehashing this particular theory, I'm sorry! IMO, when I first read
>the prophecy, I thought it was pretty straight forward (I guess I
>wasn't wearing my Sherlock Holmes hat). At the time, I understood it to
>mean, simplistically, that Harry had the power to vanquish Voldie and
>either Harry would have to kill Voldemort or vice versa. However, now
>that we're six books into the series, a new interpretation occurred to
>me (and again, if someone else has already mentioned it, I apologize
>and only have my "aging faculties" to blame for being slow on the
>uptake). Well, maybe not "aging" faculties...but perhaps "slow on the
>uptake" might be correct! My theory is this: "...and either (Harry or
>Voldemort) must die 'at the hand of the other' (Peter Pettigrew) for
>neither (Harry or Voldemort) can live while the other (Peter Pettigrew)
>survives..." I'm mentioning this theory because JK has been asked,
>"Will Wormtail ever pay Harry back?" and she replied, "You'll
>see...keep reading!" and "Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over
>to Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body?" and she
>answered, "No. Can't say anymore than that." Both quotes are taken
>from the March 2004 "World Book Day" chat. She has also said that the
>prophecy did not include Neville and that she and Madam Trelawney had
>both worded the prophecy "very carefully". Harry was born with the
>"power" to vanquish Voldemort. However, that doesn't necessarily mean
>that he is the one who will ultimately do the deed. Wormtail does owe
>this debt to Harry (I think I read somewhere that Jo said something
>about Voldemort not wanting someone in his employ who had a debt to
>Harry). I know how Dumbledore explained the prophecy to Harry, but I'm
>only mentioning an alternative, that in my mind, could be plausible.

Paragraphs are your friend. Use them. They like being used. Why
would Wormtail be the Other? And do they have to battle on a
mysterious island for this Other to do so?
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238650 ] So, 19 März 2006 09:25
Toon  
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 23:35:49 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>That would IMPLY - that Harry still has some other MAGIC that Riddle
>does not know about at all - YET.

That's the power of love.
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238679 ] So, 19 März 2006 15:19
wadkin2000  
Toon wrote:
> On 18 Mar 2006 14:46:40 -0800, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to
> >those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and
> >the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the
> >Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for
> >neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to
> >vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... I've
> >been looking through old posts (very old posts!) about various meanings
> >and theories. I didn't notice if this has been posted. If I'm
> >rehashing this particular theory, I'm sorry! IMO, when I first read
> >the prophecy, I thought it was pretty straight forward (I guess I
> >wasn't wearing my Sherlock Holmes hat). At the time, I understood it to
> >mean, simplistically, that Harry had the power to vanquish Voldie and
> >either Harry would have to kill Voldemort or vice versa. However, now
> >that we're six books into the series, a new interpretation occurred to
> >me (and again, if someone else has already mentioned it, I apologize
> >and only have my "aging faculties" to blame for being slow on the
> >uptake). Well, maybe not "aging" faculties...but perhaps "slow on the
> >uptake" might be correct! My theory is this: "...and either (Harry or
> >Voldemort) must die 'at the hand of the other' (Peter Pettigrew) for
> >neither (Harry or Voldemort) can live while the other (Peter Pettigrew)
> >survives..." I'm mentioning this theory because JK has been asked,
> >"Will Wormtail ever pay Harry back?" and she replied, "You'll
> >see...keep reading!" and "Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over
> >to Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body?" and she
> >answered, "No. Can't say anymore than that." Both quotes are taken
> >from the March 2004 "World Book Day" chat. She has also said that the
> >prophecy did not include Neville and that she and Madam Trelawney had
> >both worded the prophecy "very carefully". Harry was born with the
> >"power" to vanquish Voldemort. However, that doesn't necessarily mean
> >that he is the one who will ultimately do the deed. Wormtail does owe
> >this debt to Harry (I think I read somewhere that Jo said something
> >about Voldemort not wanting someone in his employ who had a debt to
> >Harry). I know how Dumbledore explained the prophecy to Harry, but I'm
> >only mentioning an alternative, that in my mind, could be plausible.
>
> Paragraphs are your friend. Use them. They like being used. Why
> would Wormtail be the Other? And do they have to battle on a
> mysterious island for this Other to do so?


Sorry about the paragraph thing (had a migraine coming on and was
rushing to finish). I attempted to support the theory with JK's quotes
regarding Pettigrew. I personally think that the prophecy is between
Harry and Voldemort. However, I felt that the information given by JK
could possibly support the above scenario.
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238699 ] So, 19 März 2006 17:31
Alex Clark  
Toon wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 23:35:49 GMT, Thom Madura
> <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >That would IMPLY - that Harry still has some other MAGIC that Riddle
> >does not know about at all - YET.
>
> That's the power of love.

Thanks for that bit of "news". But what does it have to do with Marty
McFly being late for school?

--
Alex Clark

Devil Tom lard moor (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238701 ] So, 19 März 2006 17:37
Alex Clark  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> . . . Harry was born with the
> "power" to vanquish Voldemort. . . .

No. The one who was going to be born as the seventh month dies was also
going to have the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. Maybe the one with
the power to vanquish the Dark Lord is still approaching, meaning that
Harry hasn't yet finished developing that power.

What we do know is that Harry was born to the situation in which he was
going to develop that power.

--
Alex Clark

Rat mold moo drivel (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238708 ] So, 19 März 2006 18:22
Ken  
rc wrote:
> Brent Braten wrote:
> I tend to agree with you in that, in my opinion, "The Hand"
>> mentioned in the prophecy is a certain silver hand attached to the
>> arm of a certain traitor.
>>
>> BB
>
> I think so too. It is the first thing I thought of when I read the
> prophecy in the book. But, it says "one must die by the hand of the
> other" wouldn't that mean the hand is really Voldermort's and it will
> kill Harry?
>
> RC

I noticed the use of the word "hand" in the prophecy and the fact that
Wormtail has a hand given to him by LV.

Because I'm a DD man... I'm convinced that Wormtail is yet to do something
great for Harry. I also wonder if Rowling is going to have Harry kill
someone; in which case Wormatail hand could come in handy.

Ken
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238710 ] So, 19 März 2006 18:25
wadkin2000  
Alex Clark wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > . . . Harry was born with the
> > "power" to vanquish Voldemort. . . .
>
> No. The one who was going to be born as the seventh month dies was also
> going to have the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. Maybe the one with
> the power to vanquish the Dark Lord is still approaching, meaning that
> Harry hasn't yet finished developing that power.
>
> What we do know is that Harry was born to the situation in which he was
> going to develop that power.
>
> --
> Alex Clark
>
> Rat mold moo drivel (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)


I stand corrected. I should have made my statement clearer. True, he
was not "born" with the power to vanquish.
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238712 ] So, 19 März 2006 18:32
Thomas Madura  
Toon wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 23:35:49 GMT, Thom Madura
> <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>That would IMPLY - that Harry still has some other MAGIC that Riddle
>>does not know about at all - YET.
>
>
> That's the power of love.

But - it is the power of LOVE that saved him the first time - and RIddle
clearly knows about it now.
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238774 ] So, 19 März 2006 23:42
cwlNOSPAM  
In article <1142777962.938195.93400 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>Toon wrote:
>> On 18 Mar 2006 14:46:40 -0800, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> >"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to
>> >those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and
>> >the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the
>> >Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for
>> >neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to
>> >vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... I've
>> >been looking through old posts (very old posts!) about various meanings
>> >and theories. I didn't notice if this has been posted. If I'm
>> >rehashing this particular theory, I'm sorry! IMO, when I first read
>> >the prophecy, I thought it was pretty straight forward (I guess I
>> >wasn't wearing my Sherlock Holmes hat). At the time, I understood it to
>> >mean, simplistically, that Harry had the power to vanquish Voldie and
>> >either Harry would have to kill Voldemort or vice versa. However, now
>> >that we're six books into the series, a new interpretation occurred to
>> >me (and again, if someone else has already mentioned it, I apologize
>> >and only have my "aging faculties" to blame for being slow on the
>> >uptake). Well, maybe not "aging" faculties...but perhaps "slow on the
>> >uptake" might be correct! My theory is this: "...and either (Harry or
>> >Voldemort) must die 'at the hand of the other' (Peter Pettigrew) for
>> >neither (Harry or Voldemort) can live while the other (Peter Pettigrew)
>> >survives..." I'm mentioning this theory because JK has been asked,
>> >"Will Wormtail ever pay Harry back?" and she replied, "You'll
>> >see...keep reading!" and "Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over
>> >to Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body?" and she
>> >answered, "No. Can't say anymore than that." Both quotes are taken
>> >from the March 2004 "World Book Day" chat. She has also said that the
>> >prophecy did not include Neville and that she and Madam Trelawney had
>> >both worded the prophecy "very carefully". Harry was born with the
>> >"power" to vanquish Voldemort. However, that doesn't necessarily mean
>> >that he is the one who will ultimately do the deed. Wormtail does owe
>> >this debt to Harry (I think I read somewhere that Jo said something
>> >about Voldemort not wanting someone in his employ who had a debt to
>> >Harry). I know how Dumbledore explained the prophecy to Harry, but I'm
>> >only mentioning an alternative, that in my mind, could be plausible.
>>
>> Paragraphs are your friend. Use them. They like being used. Why
>> would Wormtail be the Other? And do they have to battle on a
>> mysterious island for this Other to do so?
>
>
>Sorry about the paragraph thing (had a migraine coming on and was
>rushing to finish). I attempted to support the theory with JK's quotes
>regarding Pettigrew. I personally think that the prophecy is between
>Harry and Voldemort. However, I felt that the information given by JK
>could possibly support the above scenario.

You make an original and very good point. My Instinct tells me that Snape
might be just as good a candidate but I don't have the time to pursue that
thought right now.

Glad to observe that your *Cruciatus Curse* seems to have subsided.
--
Chris
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238849 ] Mo, 20 März 2006 10:07
Toon  
On 18 Mar 2006 22:58:28 -0800, "rc" <rclovely [at] aol.com> wrote:

>
>Brent Braten wrote:
> I tend to agree with you in that, in my opinion, "The Hand"
>> mentioned in the prophecy is a certain silver hand attached to the arm of a
>> certain traitor.
>>
>> BB
>
>I think so too. It is the first thing I thought of when I read the
>prophecy in the book. But, it says "one must die by the hand of the
>other" wouldn't that mean the hand is really Voldermort's and it will
>kill Harry?
>
>RC

Only if eh severs it off on Hallow Ground.
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #238850 ] Mo, 20 März 2006 10:08
Toon  
On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 17:32:25 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Toon wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 23:35:49 GMT, Thom Madura
>> <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>That would IMPLY - that Harry still has some other MAGIC that Riddle
>>>does not know about at all - YET.
>>
>>
>> That's the power of love.
>
>But - it is the power of LOVE that saved him the first time - and RIddle
>clearly knows about it now.

he knows, but does not understand it. Love is a very powerful,
multifaceted friend. What V knows of a mother's Love is a far cry
from Love itself.

besides, Harry has a power the Drak Lord knows not, and that power is,
unequivocally, love.
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #239073 ] Di, 21 März 2006 18:22
richard e white  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to
> those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and
> the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the
> Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for
> neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to
> vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... I've
> been looking through old posts (very old posts!) about various meanings
> and theories. I didn't notice if this has been posted. If I'm
> rehashing this particular theory, I'm sorry! IMO, when I first read
> the prophecy, I thought it was pretty straight forward (I guess I
> wasn't wearing my Sherlock Holmes hat). At the time, I understood it to
> mean, simplistically, that Harry had the power to vanquish Voldie and
> either Harry would have to kill Voldemort or vice versa. However, now
> that we're six books into the series, a new interpretation occurred to
> me (and again, if someone else has already mentioned it, I apologize
> and only have my "aging faculties" to blame for being slow on the
> uptake). Well, maybe not "aging" faculties...but perhaps "slow on the
> uptake" might be correct! My theory is this: "...and either (Harry or
> Voldemort) must die 'at the hand of the other' (Peter Pettigrew) for
> neither (Harry or Voldemort) can live while the other (Peter Pettigrew)

> survives..."

I don't get what you idea is. I think it has something to do with how my
screen reader speaks. And why did you drop peter name into the proficy?
Becaus if you think peter has to do with the proficy then I think you are
barking up the wrong tree.
I would bet on a zombie harry hand before that one.


> I'm mentioning this theory because JK has been asked,
> "Will Wormtail ever pay Harry back?" and she replied, "You'll
> see...keep reading!" and "Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over
> to Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body?" and she
> answered, "No. Can't say anymore than that." Both quotes are taken

Lets see peter finds out about the proficy and cuts off harry's hand and
adds it to his arm and then stabs V. Some how I don't by this idea either
.... at least n JKR's world but I bet there is a fan story out there that
did it.

>
> from the March 2004 "World Book Day" chat. She has also said that the
> prophecy did not include Neville and that she and Madam Trelawney had
> both worded the prophecy "very carefully". Harry was born with the
> "power" to vanquish Voldemort. However, that doesn't necessarily mean
> that he is the one who will ultimately do the deed. Wormtail does owe
> this debt to Harry (I think I read somewhere that Jo said something
> about Voldemort not wanting someone in his employ who had a debt to
> Harry). I know how Dumbledore explained the prophecy to Harry, but I'm
> only mentioning an alternative, that in my mind, could be plausible.




--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #239074 ] Di, 21 März 2006 18:27
richard e white  
Here in Minnesota wrote:

> rc wrote:
> > Brent Braten wrote:
> > I tend to agree with you in that, in my opinion, "The Hand"
> >> mentioned in the prophecy is a certain silver hand attached to the
> >> arm of a certain traitor.
> >>
> >> BB
> >
> > I think so too. It is the first thing I thought of when I read the
> > prophecy in the book. But, it says "one must die by the hand of the
> > other" wouldn't that mean the hand is really Voldermort's and it will
> > kill Harry?
> >
> > RC
>
> I noticed the use of the word "hand" in the prophecy and the fact that
> Wormtail has a hand given to him by LV.
>
> Because I'm a DD man... I'm convinced that Wormtail is yet to do something
> great for Harry. I also wonder if Rowling is going to have Harry kill
> someone; in which case Wormatail hand could come in handy.
>
> Ken

How could the hand of a dead person be helpful?
Or are you thinking of the hand of glorey?
But they need to be cut from that of a hanged thief or so the old story goes.


--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #239090 ] Di, 21 März 2006 19:42
rc  
Here in Minnesota wrote:

> >
> > I think so too. It is the first thing I thought of when I read the
> > prophecy in the book. But, it says "one must die by the hand of the
> > other" wouldn't that mean the hand is really Voldermort's and it will
> > kill Harry?
> >
> > RC
>
> I noticed the use of the word "hand" in the prophecy and the fact that
> Wormtail has a hand given to him by LV.
>
> Because I'm a DD man... I'm convinced that Wormtail is yet to do something
> great for Harry. I also wonder if Rowling is going to have Harry kill
> someone; in which case Wormatail hand could come in handy.
>
> Ken

OK, here's a thought. Harry has power the Dark Lord knows not. That
might mean the friendship, mentoring and the love of Dumbledore.
Dumbledore gave Harry the possible locations and forms of the remaining
Horcruxs. Once Harry destroys the Horcruxs, Voldermort would be
vulnerable and anyone, including Wormtail with his silver hand, could
kill him.

RC
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #239091 ] Di, 21 März 2006 19:46
wadkin2000  
richard e white wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to
> > those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and
> > the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the
> > Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for
> > neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to
> > vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... I've
> > been looking through old posts (very old posts!) about various meanings
> > and theories. I didn't notice if this has been posted. If I'm
> > rehashing this particular theory, I'm sorry! IMO, when I first read
> > the prophecy, I thought it was pretty straight forward (I guess I
> > wasn't wearing my Sherlock Holmes hat). At the time, I understood it to
> > mean, simplistically, that Harry had the power to vanquish Voldie and
> > either Harry would have to kill Voldemort or vice versa. However, now
> > that we're six books into the series, a new interpretation occurred to
> > me (and again, if someone else has already mentioned it, I apologize
> > and only have my "aging faculties" to blame for being slow on the
> > uptake). Well, maybe not "aging" faculties...but perhaps "slow on the
> > uptake" might be correct! My theory is this: "...and either (Harry or
> > Voldemort) must die 'at the hand of the other' (Peter Pettigrew) for
> > neither (Harry or Voldemort) can live while the other (Peter Pettigrew)
>
> > survives..."
>
> I don't get what you idea is. I think it has something to do with how my
> screen reader speaks. And why did you drop peter name into the proficy?
> Becaus if you think peter has to do with the proficy then I think you are
> barking up the wrong tree.
> I would bet on a zombie harry hand before that one.
>
>
> > I'm mentioning this theory because JK has been asked,
> > "Will Wormtail ever pay Harry back?" and she replied, "You'll
> > see...keep reading!" and "Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over
> > to Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body?" and she
> > answered, "No. Can't say anymore than that." Both quotes are taken
>
> Lets see peter finds out about the proficy and cuts off harry's hand and
> adds it to his arm and then stabs V. Some how I don't by this idea either
> ... at least n JKR's world but I bet there is a fan story out there that
> did it.
>
> >
> > from the March 2004 "World Book Day" chat. She has also said that the
> > prophecy did not include Neville and that she and Madam Trelawney had
> > both worded the prophecy "very carefully". Harry was born with the
> > "power" to vanquish Voldemort. However, that doesn't necessarily mean
> > that he is the one who will ultimately do the deed. Wormtail does owe
> > this debt to Harry (I think I read somewhere that Jo said something
> > about Voldemort not wanting someone in his employ who had a debt to
> > Harry). I know how Dumbledore explained the prophecy to Harry, but I'm
> > only mentioning an alternative, that in my mind, could be plausible.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Richard The Blind Typer
> Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.


Richard, what I'm trying to say has to do with the second part of the
prophecy. Jo made a few comments in interviews about Peter Pettigrew
that led me to propose the following theory about the prophecy.
"...and either (meaning Harry or Voldemort) must die at the hand of the
other..." (I'm putting a third person as the other, Peter
Pettigrew)"...for neither (meaning Harry or Voldemort) can live while
the other (Peter Pettigrew) survives." Peter owes a life debt to Harry,
according to Jo. I think it could be reasonable to assume that he
won't kill Harry. That life debt doesn't carry over to Voldemort,
however. If you read the second part of the prophecy as I wrote it, I
feel it's not too implausible that Voldemort and Peter end up dead. As
I said, it's just a theory. The prophecy IS probably as written. I
was just offering an alternative. I hope this helps.
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #239111 ] Di, 21 März 2006 21:33
rc  
rc wrote:

>
> OK, here's a thought. Harry has power the Dark Lord knows not. That
> might mean the friendship, mentoring and the love of Dumbledore.
> Dumbledore gave Harry the possible locations and forms of the remaining
> Horcruxs. Once Harry destroys the Horcruxs, Voldermort would be
> vulnerable and anyone, including Wormtail with his silver hand, could
> kill him.
>
> RC

I am answering my own post! To clairify the power of love, maybe that
power is not that Harry is able to love, but how much he is loved by
others. He is loved by the Weisleys, Ron, Hermonie, Dumbledore, maybe
McGonnagal, and many others. Voldermort not only can't love, but no
one loves him. He is admired and feared, but not loved.

(I really have to get out of retirement and go back to work. Then, I
would have something else to think about.)

RC
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #239116 ] Di, 21 März 2006 21:52
Ken  
richard e white wrote:
> Here in Minnesota wrote:
>> I noticed the use of the word "hand" in the prophecy and the fact
>> that Wormtail has a hand given to him by LV.
>>
>> Because I'm a DD man... I'm convinced that Wormtail is yet to do
>> something great for Harry. I also wonder if Rowling is going to have
>> Harry kill someone; in which case Wormatail hand could come in handy.
>>
>> Ken
>
> How could the hand of a dead person be helpful?
> Or are you thinking of the hand of glorey?
> But they need to be cut from that of a hanged thief or so the old
> story goes.

nope... book 4 graveyard... silver hand

"Voldemort raised his wand again and whirled it through the air. A streak of
what looked like molten silver hung shining in the wand's wake. Momentarily
shapeless, it writhed and then formed itself into a gleaming replica of a
human hand, bright as moonlight, which soared downward and fixed itself upon
Wormtails bleeding wrist.
Wormtail's sobbing stopped abruptly. His breathing harsh and ragged, he
raised his head and stared in disbelief at the silver hand, now attached
seamlessly to his arm, as though he were wearing a dazzling glove. He flexed
the shining fingers, then, trembling, picked up a small twig on the ground
and crushed it into powder.

My Lord, he whispered. Master. it is beautiful. thank you. thank you."



Ken
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #239117 ] Di, 21 März 2006 22:05
wadkin2000  
rc wrote:
> rc wrote:
>
> >
> > OK, here's a thought. Harry has power the Dark Lord knows not. That
> > might mean the friendship, mentoring and the love of Dumbledore.
> > Dumbledore gave Harry the possible locations and forms of the remaining
> > Horcruxs. Once Harry destroys the Horcruxs, Voldermort would be
> > vulnerable and anyone, including Wormtail with his silver hand, could
> > kill him.
> >
> > RC
>
> I am answering my own post! To clairify the power of love, maybe that
> power is not that Harry is able to love, but how much he is loved by
> others. He is loved by the Weisleys, Ron, Hermonie, Dumbledore, maybe
> McGonnagal, and many others. Voldermort not only can't love, but no
> one loves him. He is admired and feared, but not loved.
>
> (I really have to get out of retirement and go back to work. Then, I
> would have something else to think about.)
>
> RC


ROTFL...(I don't know why, but that just struck me as so very funny!
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #239182 ] Mi, 22 März 2006 06:19
rc  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> rc wrote:
> > rc wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > OK, here's a thought. Harry has power the Dark Lord knows not. That
> > > might mean the friendship, mentoring and the love of Dumbledore.
> > > Dumbledore gave Harry the possible locations and forms of the remaining
> > > Horcruxs. Once Harry destroys the Horcruxs, Voldermort would be
> > > vulnerable and anyone, including Wormtail with his silver hand, could
> > > kill him.
> > >
> > > RC
> >
> > I am answering my own post! To clairify the power of love, maybe that
> > power is not that Harry is able to love, but how much he is loved by
> > others. He is loved by the Weisleys, Ron, Hermonie, Dumbledore, maybe
> > McGonnagal, and many others. Voldermort not only can't love, but no
> > one loves him. He is admired and feared, but not loved.
> >
> > (I really have to get out of retirement and go back to work. Then, I
> > would have something else to think about.)
> >
> > RC
>
>
> ROTFL...(I don't know why, but that just struck me as so very funny!

Now what do you think is funny? My nutty posts or I am going La La
since I retired?

RC
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #239237 ] Mi, 22 März 2006 15:31
wadkin2000  
rc wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > rc wrote:
> > > rc wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > OK, here's a thought. Harry has power the Dark Lord knows not. That
> > > > might mean the friendship, mentoring and the love of Dumbledore.
> > > > Dumbledore gave Harry the possible locations and forms of the remaining
> > > > Horcruxs. Once Harry destroys the Horcruxs, Voldermort would be
> > > > vulnerable and anyone, including Wormtail with his silver hand, could
> > > > kill him.
> > > >
> > > > RC
> > >
> > > I am answering my own post! To clairify the power of love, maybe that
> > > power is not that Harry is able to love, but how much he is loved by
> > > others. He is loved by the Weisleys, Ron, Hermonie, Dumbledore, maybe
> > > McGonnagal, and many others. Voldermort not only can't love, but no
> > > one loves him. He is admired and feared, but not loved.
> > >
> > > (I really have to get out of retirement and go back to work. Then, I
> > > would have something else to think about.)
> > >
> > > RC
> >
> >
> > ROTFL...(I don't know why, but that just struck me as so very funny!
>
> Now what do you think is funny? My nutty posts or I am going La La
> since I retired?

>
> RC


The part about retirement....I love your posts....I have good friends
who've retired (both about the same time) and I keep telling them to
either get lots of hobbies or go back to work!
Re: Prophecy meaning [message #243831 ] Sa, 01 April 2006 03:14
richard e white  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> richard e white wrote:
> > wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to
> > > those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and
> > > the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the
> > > Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for
> > > neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to
> > > vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... I've
> > > been looking through old posts (very old posts!) about various meanings
> > > and theories. I didn't notice if this has been posted. If I'm
> > > rehashing this particular theory, I'm sorry! IMO, when I first read
> > > the prophecy, I thought it was pretty straight forward (I guess I
> > > wasn't wearing my Sherlock Holmes hat). At the time, I understood it to
> > > mean, simplistically, that Harry had the power to vanquish Voldie and
> > > either Harry would have to kill Voldemort or vice versa. However, now
> > > that we're six books into the series, a new interpretation occurred to
> > > me (and again, if someone else has already mentioned it, I apologize
> > > and only have my "aging faculties" to blame for being slow on the
> > > uptake). Well, maybe not "aging" faculties...but perhaps "slow on the
> > > uptake" might be correct! My theory is this: "...and either (Harry or
> > > Voldemort) must die 'at the hand of the other' (Peter Pettigrew) for
> > > neither (Harry or Voldemort) can live while the other (Peter Pettigrew)
> >
> > > survives..."
> >
> > I don't get what you idea is. I think it has something to do with how my
> > screen reader speaks. And why did you drop peter name into the proficy?
> > Becaus if you think peter has to do with the proficy then I think you are
> > barking up the wrong tree.
> > I would bet on a zombie harry hand before that one.
> >
> >
> > > I'm mentioning this theory because JK has been asked,
> > > "Will Wormtail ever pay Harry back?" and she replied, "You'll
> > > see...keep reading!" and "Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over
> > > to Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body?" and she
> > > answered, "No. Can't say anymore than that." Both quotes are taken
> >
> > Lets see peter finds out about the proficy and cuts off harry's hand and
> > adds it to his arm and then stabs V. Some how I don't by this idea either
> > ... at least n JKR's world but I bet there is a fan story out there that
> > did it.
> >
> > >
> > > from the March 2004 "World Book Day" chat. She has also said that the
> > > prophecy did not include Neville and that she and Madam Trelawney had
> > > both worded the prophecy "very carefully". Harry was born with the
> > > "power" to vanquish Voldemort. However, that doesn't necessarily mean
> > > that he is the one who will ultimately do the deed. Wormtail does owe
> > > this debt to Harry (I think I read somewhere that Jo said something
> > > about Voldemort not wanting someone in his employ who had a debt to
> > > Harry). I know how Dumbledore explained the prophecy to Harry, but I'm
> > > only mentioning an alternative, that in my mind, could be plausible.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard The Blind Typer
> > Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
>
> Richard, what I'm trying to say has to do with the second part of the
> prophecy. Jo made a few comments in interviews about Peter Pettigrew
> that led me to propose the following theory about the prophecy.
> "...and either (meaning Harry or Voldemort) must die at the hand of the
> other..." (I'm putting a third person as the other, Peter
> Pettigrew)"...for neither (meaning Harry or Voldemort) can live while
> the other (Peter Pettigrew) survives." Peter owes a life debt to Harry,
> according to Jo. I think it could be reasonable to assume that he
> won't kill Harry. That life debt doesn't carry over to Voldemort,
> however. If you read the second part of the prophecy as I wrote it, I
> feel it's not too implausible that Voldemort and Peter end up dead. As
> I said, it's just a theory. The prophecy IS probably as written. I
> was just offering an alternative. I hope this helps.

At least I know what you mean now. And by the twists that are in most
prophecies it could be posable. The real battle may be between Harry and V as
in who will peter follow at the end. It could be worked that way.


--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
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