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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Severus Snape is not a traitor
| Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238568] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 16:04 |
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In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by Prof.
Trewlany. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time, read
her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds & handed her
staight to Voldemort.
The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in advance
by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
You read it here first.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238569 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 16:04 |
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trinity schrieb:
> In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
> wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
> magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by Prof.
> Trewlany. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time, read
> her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds & handed her
> staight to Voldemort.
> The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in advance
> by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
>
> Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
> redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
>
> You read it here first.
Unless I am mistaken Trelawney does NOT remember her true prophecies, so
your point is void.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238572 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 16:13 |
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On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:04:32 +0100, Peter <epeter [at] online.de> wrote:
>trinity schrieb:
>> In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
>> wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
>> magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by Prof.
>> Trewlany. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time, read
>> her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds & handed her
>> staight to Voldemort.
>> The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in advance
>> by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
>>
>> Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
>> redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
>>
>> You read it here first.
>
>Unless I am mistaken Trelawney does NOT remember her true prophecies, so
>your point is void.
She doesn't have to remember them for them to still be in her head.
She made the prophecies so she retains the memory of them even if she
has no conscious recollection.
Point unvoided.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238576 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 17:03 |
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trinity wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:04:32 +0100, Peter <epeter [at] online.de> wrote:
>
> >trinity schrieb:
> >> In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
> >> wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
> >> magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by Prof.
> >> Trewlany. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time, read
> >> her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds & handed her
> >> staight to Voldemort.
> >> The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in advance
> >> by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
> >>
> >> Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
> >> redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
> >>
> >> You read it here first.
> >
> >Unless I am mistaken Trelawney does NOT remember her true prophecies, so
> >your point is void.
>
> She doesn't have to remember them for them to still be in her head.
> She made the prophecies so she retains the memory of them even if she
> has no conscious recollection.
> Point unvoided.
It's called channeling. She is channeling the prophecy from the other
side so she is just like a pipe. Channeling is over and pipe is empty.
Point revoided.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238578 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 18:39 |
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On 18 Mar 2006 08:03:17 -0800, "chappy" <chappy2235 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>trinity wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:04:32 +0100, Peter <epeter [at] online.de> wrote:
>>
>> >trinity schrieb:
>> >> In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
>> >> wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
>> >> magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by Prof.
>> >> Trewlany. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time, read
>> >> her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds & handed her
>> >> staight to Voldemort.
>> >> The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in advance
>> >> by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
>> >>
>> >> Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
>> >> redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
>> >>
>> >> You read it here first.
>> >
>> >Unless I am mistaken Trelawney does NOT remember her true prophecies, so
>> >your point is void.
>>
>> She doesn't have to remember them for them to still be in her head.
>> She made the prophecies so she retains the memory of them even if she
>> has no conscious recollection.
>> Point unvoided.
>It's called channeling. She is channeling the prophecy from the other
>side so she is just like a pipe. Channeling is over and pipe is empty.
>Point revoided.
Called channeling by whom?
You? She is channeling from the other side of what? In the books it is
accepted as fact that Trelwany made the prophecy if Snape was a good
little death eater he would not have ignored the possibility that she
retained the memory of the event. It would be easier to try
Legilimency than storming the ministry of magic
Point re-unvoided
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238580 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 20:02 |
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The subject line is insupportable. He is clearly either a traitor to
Dumbledore or a traitor to Voldemort; you can't claim to serve two
archenemies and not be a traitor. :-p
trinity wrote:
> In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
> wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
> magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by Prof.
> Trewlany. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time,
No. She doesn't remember giving the prophecy, remember? He can't pull
something from her mind that isn't there.
> It would be easier to try
> Legilimency than storming the ministry of magic
And you have no way of knowing Snape didn't, at any point in the years
he's been working with Trelawney, go through her mind and determine that
the prophecy wasn't there.
Both, "The memory of having given the prophecy is somewhere in
Trelawny's mind" and, "The memory of having given the prophecy is
nowhere in Trelawny's mind" are essentially speculation until and unless
Rowling confirms either way. You speak as though it's an established
fact that the memory is somewhere in her mind; considering the prophecy
was not given in her voice or with her manner of speaking and that she
doesn't remember giving it, I consider it far more likely that it isn't.
In any case, though, you can't base proof of anything on something
that is not itself proved.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238582 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 19:27 |
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trinity wrote:
> Peter <epeter [at] online.de> wrote:
>
>> Unless I am mistaken Trelawney does NOT remember her true
>> prophecies, so your point is void.
>
> She doesn't have to remember them for them to still be in her head.
Are you sure they are, though?
> She made the prophecies
She speaks with another voice when she makes them. It's entirely possible
that someone else is speaking through her. When they're done, they leave.
So there'd be no trace of them left.
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"No dragons were harmed in the making of this movie."
-End credits, _Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire_.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238583 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 20:07 |
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Kish wrote:
> The subject line is insupportable. He is clearly either a traitor
> to Dumbledore or a traitor to Voldemort; you can't claim to
> serve two archenemies and not be a traitor. :-p
LOL! I thought something along those lines, too. Yes, he IS a traitor..
The question is, who is he really betraying?
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"When Catherine thinks you're too gay, you're too gay."
-Rob Fontenot, aka The Midnight Rambler, RATMM.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238584 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 20:20 |
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Fish Eye no Miko escribió:
> Kish wrote:
>
>> The subject line is insupportable. He is clearly either a traitor
>> to Dumbledore or a traitor to Voldemort; you can't claim to
>> serve two archenemies and not be a traitor. :-p
>
> LOL! I thought something along those lines, too. Yes, he IS a traitor..
> The question is, who is he really betraying?
>
> Catherine Johnson.
New poll Blon? Whom is Snape betraying?
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238586 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 21:54 |
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Peter wrote:
> trinity schrieb:
>> In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
>> wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
>> magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by
>> Prof. Trelawney. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time,
>> read her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds &
>> handed her staight to Voldemort.
>> The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in advance
>> by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
>>
>> Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
>> redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
>>
>> You read it here first.
>
> Unless I am mistaken Trelawney does NOT remember her true prophecies,
> so your point is void.
DD hired Trelawney and kept her at the castle even after she was sacked by
DU to keep her out of the death eaters hands. My guess is that even though
she had no remembrance of the prophecy it would be able to be extracted.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238587 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 22:13 |
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Here in Minnesota escribió:
> Peter wrote:
>> trinity schrieb:
>>> In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
>>> wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
>>> magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by
>>> Prof. Trelawney. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time,
>>> read her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds &
>>> handed her staight to Voldemort.
>>> The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in advance
>>> by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
>>>
>>> Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
>>> redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
>>>
>>> You read it here first.
>> Unless I am mistaken Trelawney does NOT remember her true prophecies,
>> so your point is void.
>
> DD hired Trelawney and kept her at the castle even after she was sacked by
> DU to keep her out of the death eaters hands. My guess is that even though
> she had no remembrance of the prophecy it would be able to be extracted.
And, do we know that Snape and the other members of the Order knew all
detail about the Prophecy? I think they just know it's about Harry and
LV but doesn't know it at detail.
Also, there is a chance DD kept it from Snape just in case: if he didn't
trust him enough to charge him with the DADA classes, fearing he might
return to his old arts, something as important as this, might have
tempted him to return to his master as well.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238589 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 22:21 |
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"Here in Minnesota" <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message =
news:Sr_Sf.1$VG7.0 [at] newsfe13.phx...
> Peter wrote:
>> trinity schrieb:
>>> In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
>>> wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
>>> magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by
>>> Prof. Trelawney. He could have easily gotten it from her at any =
time,
>>> read her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds &
>>> handed her staight to Voldemort.
>>> The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in =
advance
>>> by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
>>>
>>> Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
>>> redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
>>>
>>> You read it here first.
>>
>> Unless I am mistaken Trelawney does NOT remember her true prophecies,
>> so your point is void.
>=20
> DD hired Trelawney and kept her at the castle even after she was =
sacked by=20
> DU to keep her out of the death eaters hands. My guess is that even =
though=20
> she had no remembrance of the prophecy it would be able to be =
extracted.=20
>=20
>
V extracted memories from Bertha that had been erased by Crouch Sr.
When Umbridge sacked Trewlany DD went to great effort to be able to
keep her in the castle - to keep her safe -. So I assume DD at least =
thought it
was possible to retrieve memories from her, or at least fry her brain =
trying.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238590 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 22:36 |
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drusilla wrote:
> Here in Minnesota escribió:
>> Peter wrote:
>>> trinity schrieb:
>>>> In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of
>>>> those wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the
>>>> ministry of magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy
>>>> was made by Prof. Trelawney. He could have easily gotten it from
>>>> her at any time, read her mind or tricked her into leaving the
>>>> school grounds & handed her staight to Voldemort.
>>>> The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in
>>>> advance by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods
>>>> in HBP. Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he
>>>> will redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from
>>>> Voldemort. You read it here first.
>>> Unless I am mistaken Trelawney does NOT remember her true
>>> prophecies, so your point is void.
>>
>> DD hired Trelawney and kept her at the castle even after she was
>> sacked by DU to keep her out of the death eaters hands. My guess is
>> that even though she had no remembrance of the prophecy it would be
>> able to be extracted.
>
> And, do we know that Snape and the other members of the Order knew all
> detail about the Prophecy? I think they just know it's about Harry and
> LV but doesn't know it at detail.
> Also, there is a chance DD kept it from Snape just in case: if he
> didn't trust him enough to charge him with the DADA classes, fearing
> he might return to his old arts, something as important as this,
> might have tempted him to return to his master as well.
We all know that Snape knew at least half of the prophecy and the one who
gave it.
If Snape knew only half of the prophecy then the original poster gives some
support to "Snape is not evil" theory.
If Snape knew the whole prophecy then we would know that Snape is not on LV
side... in that he wouldn't of have his master waste a year will information
he could just tell him.
Ken
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238592 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 22:54 |
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Steve Szostek wrote:
> V extracted memories from Bertha that had been erased by Crouch Sr.
> When Umbridge sacked Trewlany DD went to great effort to be able to
> keep her in the castle - to keep her safe -. So I assume DD at least thought it
> was possible to retrieve memories from her, or at least fry her brain trying.
Yes, I think "or at least fry her brain trying" is the concern here.
Dumbledore says in HBP that his concern is that Trelawney wouldn't
survive outside of his protection--not that he's worried about Voldemort
learning the prophecy. I envision Trelawney's capture by Voldemort
going something like this:
VOLDEMORT: Tell me the prophecy you made to Dumbledore seventeen years ago.
TRELAWNEY: Wh-what? What prophecy?
VOLDEMORT: Do not attempt to lie to Lord Voldemort! Legilimens!
Trelawney whimpers and screams, clutches her head
VOLDEMORT: Hm....You're very good at hiding it, apparently.
TRELAWNEY: I don't know what you're talking about?
VOLDEMORT: Really? Let's see. Bellatrix!
BELLATRIX: Yes, my lord!
Bellatrix takes Trelawney off-camera. The word "Crucio" is heard,
followed by howls from Trelawney.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238593 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 23:20 |
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Here in Minnesota wrote:
> If Snape knew the whole prophecy then we would know that Snape is not on LV
> side... in that he wouldn't of have his master waste a year will information
> he could just tell him.
That would indeed prove that Snape is not on Voldemort's side. However,
it wouldn't answer the questions "Is Snape on Dumbledore's side?" or,
"Is Snape good or evil?"
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238598 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 22:44 |
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Steve Szostek wrote:
> V extracted memories from Bertha that had been erased by Crouch Sr.
Not quite the same thing.
> When Umbridge sacked Trewlany DD went to great effort to be able
> to keep her in the castle - to keep her safe -. So I assume DD at least
> thought it was possible to retrieve memories from her, or at least fry
> her
> brain trying.
That's just it--whether or not the memories could be taken from her, the
DE's would TRY, and probably kill her in the attempt, or do to her what
they did to the Longbottoms. I think it's less concern with them being
able to get it then when they would do to Trelawny in the process.
There's also the fact that if she got lucky with a correct prophesy once,
it could happen again (as indeed it did in PoA), and DD didn't want her to
be in the DE's hands if/when that happened.
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"I believe that if anything is worth doing, it would have been done
already."
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238600 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 00:36 |
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trinity wrote:
> In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
> wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
> magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by Prof.
> Trewlany. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time, read
> her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds & handed her
> staight to Voldemort.
> The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in advance
> by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
>
> Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
> redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
>
> You read it here first.
You title is indeed correct - but not for the reasons you mention.
Obviously - Snape is not a traitor to Riddle.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238602 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 00:55 |
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Kish wrote:
> Here in Minnesota wrote:
>
>> If Snape knew the whole prophecy then we would know that Snape is
>> not on LV side... in that he wouldn't of have his master waste a
>> year will information he could just tell him.
>
> That would indeed prove that Snape is not on Voldemort's side. However, it
> wouldn't answer the questions "Is Snape on Dumbledore's
> side?" or, "Is Snape good or evil?"
I would agree that there are the 3 possibly
1. Snape is on DD side
2. Snape is on LV side
3. Snape is on neither DD or LV side
the forth choice doesn't make any sense
4. Snape is on both DD and LV side
but I'm of the view that "he who is against LV is for DD" and more or less
ignore the 3 possibility.
If this was real life I could see Snape being neither a DD or LV man but I
don't see it now playing out in the book series...
.... if Snape is his own man this would be found out either before or after
LV end [unless you think that LV will win at the end].
.... if Snape is found to be his own man after LV end... then we would have a
fight between Harry and Snape after LV is gone... or if Harry and LV are
both dead... we'll see a fight between one of Harry's friends and Snape for
the final battle... all which would be very anti-climatic. I just don't see
it.
.... if Snape is found to be his own man before LV end... then you'll have a
fight between LV and Snape in the middle of the last book... this is the
only way I see where it could work... but would be quite unsatisfying... DD
is a fool and Snape gets killed by LV just before the final battle.
Ken
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238603 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 01:24 |
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Here in Minnesota wrote:
> Kish wrote:
> > Here in Minnesota wrote:
> >
> >> If Snape knew the whole prophecy then we would know that Snape is
> >> not on LV side... in that he wouldn't of have his master waste a
> >> year will information he could just tell him.
> >
> > That would indeed prove that Snape is not on Voldemort's side. However, it
> > wouldn't answer the questions "Is Snape on Dumbledore's
> > side?" or, "Is Snape good or evil?"
>
> I would agree that there are the 3 possibly
>
> 1. Snape is on DD side
> 2. Snape is on LV side
> 3. Snape is on neither DD or LV side
>
> the forth choice doesn't make any sense
>
> 4. Snape is on both DD and LV side
>
> but I'm of the view that "he who is against LV is for DD" and more or less
> ignore the 3 possibility.
>
> If this was real life I could see Snape being neither a DD or LV man but I
> don't see it now playing out in the book series...
>
> ... if Snape is his own man this would be found out either before or after
> LV end [unless you think that LV will win at the end].
>
> ... if Snape is found to be his own man after LV end... then we would have a
> fight between Harry and Snape after LV is gone... or if Harry and LV are
> both dead... we'll see a fight between one of Harry's friends and Snape for
> the final battle... all which would be very anti-climatic. I just don't see
> it.
>
> ... if Snape is found to be his own man before LV end... then you'll have a
> fight between LV and Snape in the middle of the last book... this is the
> only way I see where it could work... but would be quite unsatisfying... DD
> is a fool and Snape gets killed by LV just before the final battle.
>
I find it amazing that, in some ways, the character of Snape has proven
to be so much more intriguing than Harry, IMO! There are so many
layers to Snape! He is such a complex character and so worthy of
examination and psychoanalyzing!
> Ken
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238605 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 01:46 |
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either way it goes he is still a traitor so he wont survive the final
book
to voldemort or to dumbledore
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238607 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 01:57 |
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Here in Minnesota wrote:
> Kish wrote:
> > Here in Minnesota wrote:
> >
> >> If Snape knew the whole prophecy then we would know that Snape is
> >> not on LV side... in that he wouldn't of have his master waste a
> >> year will information he could just tell him.
> >
> > That would indeed prove that Snape is not on Voldemort's side. However, it
> > wouldn't answer the questions "Is Snape on Dumbledore's
> > side?" or, "Is Snape good or evil?"
>
> I would agree that there are the 3 possibly
>
> 1. Snape is on DD side
> 2. Snape is on LV side
> 3. Snape is on neither DD or LV side
I would disagree that there are only *three* possibilities... Snape
could be on one side or the other, he could also be on no one's side
(his own side), he could also be on one side for one book, then another
side for another book. He could be on LV's side on some issues, but
DD's on other issues. He could agree with DD's ideals, but hate Harry
so much he wants to fight against whatever side Harry's on. He could be
against the wizard that killed Lilly. He could be for the Dark Arts but
against LV's hysterical blood-purity nonsense. He could be for whatever
side is stronger. He could be for whatever side the Malfoys are on. He
could be for whatever side shows him the most love and loyalty. He
could be for whatever side will give him the best opportunity to use
his talents... I could go on, but I think my point is made.
> the forth choice doesn't make any sense
>
> 4. Snape is on both DD and LV side
>
> but I'm of the view that "he who is against LV is for DD" and more or less
> ignore the 3 possibility.
Whereas I completely disagree with this kind of black-and-white
thinking. The enemy of my enemy is not neccesarily my friend. Just ask
Osama bin laden, after the CIA trained him up "real good" to fight the
Russians.
Snape has been anything but black-and-white so far, and I don't see
that changing at the last minute. I will be extremely dissappointed in
JKR if it turns out that either Snape was good all along, or that he's
been evil all along. A character like this deserves a much more
satifying and complex rationale.
|
|
|
| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238609 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 02:28 |
|
JoeMo wrote:
> Here in Minnesota wrote:
> > Kish wrote:
> > > Here in Minnesota wrote:
> > >
> > >> If Snape knew the whole prophecy then we would know that Snape is
> > >> not on LV side... in that he wouldn't of have his master waste a
> > >> year will information he could just tell him.
> > >
> > > That would indeed prove that Snape is not on Voldemort's side. However, it
> > > wouldn't answer the questions "Is Snape on Dumbledore's
> > > side?" or, "Is Snape good or evil?"
> >
> > I would agree that there are the 3 possibly
> >
> > 1. Snape is on DD side
> > 2. Snape is on LV side
> > 3. Snape is on neither DD or LV side
>
> I would disagree that there are only *three* possibilities... Snape
> could be on one side or the other, he could also be on no one's side
> (his own side), he could also be on one side for one book, then another
> side for another book. He could be on LV's side on some issues, but
> DD's on other issues. He could agree with DD's ideals, but hate Harry
> so much he wants to fight against whatever side Harry's on. He could be
> against the wizard that killed Lilly. He could be for the Dark Arts but
> against LV's hysterical blood-purity nonsense. He could be for whatever
> side is stronger. He could be for whatever side the Malfoys are on. He
> could be for whatever side shows him the most love and loyalty. He
> could be for whatever side will give him the best opportunity to use
> his talents... I could go on, but I think my point is made.
>
> > the forth choice doesn't make any sense
> >
> > 4. Snape is on both DD and LV side
> >
> > but I'm of the view that "he who is against LV is for DD" and more or less
> > ignore the 3 possibility.
>
> Whereas I completely disagree with this kind of black-and-white
> thinking. The enemy of my enemy is not neccesarily my friend. Just ask
> Osama bin laden, after the CIA trained him up "real good" to fight the
> Russians.
>
> Snape has been anything but black-and-white so far, and I don't see
> that changing at the last minute. I will be extremely dissappointed in
> JKR if it turns out that either Snape was good all along, or that he's
> been evil all along. A character like this deserves a much more
> satifying and complex rationale.
Snape is definitely a "shade of gray!"
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238614 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 02:58 |
|
"chappy" <chappy2235 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142697797.877812.100350 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> trinity wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:04:32 +0100, Peter <epeter [at] online.de> wrote:
>>
>> >trinity schrieb:
>> >> In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
>> >> wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
>> >> magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by Prof.
>> >> Trewlany. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time, read
>> >> her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds & handed her
>> >> staight to Voldemort.
>> >> The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in advance
>> >> by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
>> >>
>> >> Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
>> >> redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
>> >>
>> >> You read it here first.
>> >
>> >Unless I am mistaken Trelawney does NOT remember her true prophecies, so
>> >your point is void.
>>
>> She doesn't have to remember them for them to still be in her head.
>> She made the prophecies so she retains the memory of them even if she
>> has no conscious recollection.
>> Point unvoided.
> It's called channeling. She is channeling the prophecy from the other
> side so she is just like a pipe. Channeling is over and pipe is empty.
> Point revoided.
>
You are missing the point, he is right in a way because if the prophecy
can't be extracted from Trelawney then why is Dumbledore getting into so
much trouble by going against the ministry just to keep her protected in the
castle when Umbridge kicks her out.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238615 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 03:00 |
|
"Here in Minnesota" <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message =
news:Q51Tf.570$LL5.100 [at] newsfe09.phx...
> Kish wrote:
>> Here in Minnesota wrote:
>>
>>> If Snape knew the whole prophecy then we would know that Snape is
>>> not on LV side... in that he wouldn't of have his master waste a
>>> year will information he could just tell him.
>>
>> That would indeed prove that Snape is not on Voldemort's side. =
However, it=20
>> wouldn't answer the questions "Is Snape on Dumbledore's
>> side?" or, "Is Snape good or evil?"
>=20
> I would agree that there are the 3 possibly
>=20
> 1. Snape is on DD side
> 2. Snape is on LV side
> 3. Snape is on neither DD or LV side
>=20
> the forth choice doesn't make any sense
>=20
> 4. Snape is on both DD and LV side
>=20
Snape is on Snape's side. He's playing them both.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238617 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 03:35 |
|
Steve Szostek wrote:
> "Here in Minnesota" <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote in
> message news:Q51Tf.570$LL5.100 [at] newsfe09.phx...
>> Kish wrote:
>>> Here in Minnesota wrote:
>>>
>>>> If Snape knew the whole prophecy then we would know that Snape is
>>>> not on LV side... in that he wouldn't of have his master waste a
>>>> year will information he could just tell him.
>>>
>>> That would indeed prove that Snape is not on Voldemort's side.
>>> However, it wouldn't answer the questions "Is Snape on Dumbledore's
>>> side?" or, "Is Snape good or evil?"
>>
>> I would agree that there are the 3 possibly
>>
>> 1. Snape is on DD side
>> 2. Snape is on LV side
>> 3. Snape is on neither DD or LV side
>>
>> the forth choice doesn't make any sense
>>
>> 4. Snape is on both DD and LV side
>>
>
> Snape is on Snape's side. He's playing them both.
That would be door #3.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238618 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 03:40 |
|
Jonathan Rodriguez wrote:
> "chappy" <chappy2235 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's called channeling. She is channeling the prophecy from
>> the other side so she is just like a pipe. Channeling is over
>> and pipe is empty. Point revoided.
>
> You are missing the point, he is right in a way because if the
> prophecy can't be extracted from Trelawney then why is Dumbledore getting
> into so much trouble by going against the ministry just to keep her
> protected in the castle when Umbridge
> kicks her out.
The DE's probably don't know that they can't get the info out of her, and
may well try to kill her in the process of getting the information out of
her.
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"I believe that if anything is worth doing, it would have been done
already."
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238623 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 03:59 |
|
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 19:40:19 -0700, "Fish Eye no Miko"
<fisheye [at] deadmoon.circus> wrote:
>Jonathan Rodriguez wrote:
>
>> "chappy" <chappy2235 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's called channeling. She is channeling the prophecy from
>>> the other side so she is just like a pipe. Channeling is over
>>> and pipe is empty. Point revoided.
>>
>> You are missing the point, he is right in a way because if the
>> prophecy can't be extracted from Trelawney then why is Dumbledore getting
>> into so much trouble by going against the ministry just to keep her
>> protected in the castle when Umbridge
>> kicks her out.
>
>The DE's probably don't know that they can't get the info out of her, and
>may well try to kill her in the process of getting the information out of
>her.
>
>Catherine Johnson.
I doubt that Death Eaters would lose much sleep over killing Sybil
Trelawny in the course of questioning her over something that
Voldemort consider so critical. You underestimate the importance of
the prophecy to him. Voldemort wanted it badly enough to make a
personal visit to the ministry. If Snape was a good little Death Eater
he would have offered up the seer for the brownie points alone.
The odds are Snape wil die saving Harry & atone for his role in the
killing of Lily Potter whom he secretly loved as much as he loathed
James.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238625 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 04:10 |
|
JoeMo wrote:
Snip
>> 1. Snape is on DD side
>> 2. Snape is on LV side
>> 3. Snape is on neither DD or LV side
>
> I would disagree that there are only *three* possibilities... Snape
> could be on one side or the other, he could also be on no one's side
> (his own side), he could also be on one side for one book, then
> another side for another book. He could be on LV's side on some
> issues, but DD's on other issues. He could agree with DD's ideals,
> but hate Harry so much he wants to fight against whatever side
> Harry's on. He could be against the wizard that killed Lilly. He
> could be for the Dark Arts but against LV's hysterical blood-purity
> nonsense. He could be for whatever side is stronger. He could be for
> whatever side the Malfoys are on. He could be for whatever side shows
> him the most love and loyalty. He could be for whatever side will
> give him the best opportunity to use his talents... I could go on,
> but I think my point is made.
>
>> the forth choice doesn't make any sense
>>
>> 4. Snape is on both DD and LV side
>>
>> but I'm of the view that "he who is against LV is for DD" and more
>> or less ignore the 3 possibility.
>
> Whereas I completely disagree with this kind of black-and-white
> thinking. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. Just ask
> Osama bin laden, after the CIA trained him up "real good" to fight the
> Russians.
>
> Snape has been anything but black-and-white so far, and I don't see
> that changing at the last minute. I will be extremely dissappointed in
> JKR if it turns out that either Snape was good all along, or that he's
> been evil all along. A character like this deserves a much more
> satifying and complex rationale.
Some thoughts...
You don't have to agree completely with a person, country or cause to "be on
that side". There are several originations that I'm a part of and I don't
agree with any of them completely. My wife and I don't agree on everything
but I know where my loyalty lies... I'm on her side.
If someone is on one side and then switch sides for whatever reason... that
doesn't make that person "on both sides".
I agree that "The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.". Sirius
and Snape [assuming that Snape was good] form this alliance together in the
fight against LV. It doesn't mean they ever liked each other or would not be
open enemies after the fight with LV over.
The good guys [Harry, Ron etc] do some "evil"... lie, cheat, etc.; bad guy
do good things sometimes... I will still use the terms "good guy" when
talking about Hagrid and Harry and "evil" when talking about Bellatrix.
There are some interesting characters like Umbrage who has done nothing but
evil but is most likely on the right side [I don't think that she wants LV
to win].
I think the question still comes to... is Snape now on DD side, LV side or
his own.
Ken
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238627 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 04:25 |
|
Here in Minnesota wrote:
> JoeMo wrote:
> Snip
>
> >> 1. Snape is on DD side
> >> 2. Snape is on LV side
> >> 3. Snape is on neither DD or LV side
> >
> > I would disagree that there are only *three* possibilities... Snape
> > could be on one side or the other, he could also be on no one's side
> > (his own side), he could also be on one side for one book, then
> > another side for another book. He could be on LV's side on some
> > issues, but DD's on other issues. He could agree with DD's ideals,
> > but hate Harry so much he wants to fight against whatever side
> > Harry's on. He could be against the wizard that killed Lilly. He
> > could be for the Dark Arts but against LV's hysterical blood-purity
> > nonsense. He could be for whatever side is stronger. He could be for
> > whatever side the Malfoys are on. He could be for whatever side shows
> > him the most love and loyalty. He could be for whatever side will
> > give him the best opportunity to use his talents... I could go on,
> > but I think my point is made.
> >
> >> the forth choice doesn't make any sense
> >>
> >> 4. Snape is on both DD and LV side
> >>
> >> but I'm of the view that "he who is against LV is for DD" and more
> >> or less ignore the 3 possibility.
> >
> > Whereas I completely disagree with this kind of black-and-white
> > thinking. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. Just ask
> > Osama bin laden, after the CIA trained him up "real good" to fight the
> > Russians.
> >
> > Snape has been anything but black-and-white so far, and I don't see
> > that changing at the last minute. I will be extremely dissappointed in
> > JKR if it turns out that either Snape was good all along, or that he's
> > been evil all along. A character like this deserves a much more
> > satifying and complex rationale.
>
> Some thoughts...
>
> You don't have to agree completely with a person, country or cause to "be on
> that side". There are several originations that I'm a part of and I don't
> agree with any of them completely. My wife and I don't agree on everything
> but I know where my loyalty lies... I'm on her side.
>
> If someone is on one side and then switch sides for whatever reason... that
> doesn't make that person "on both sides".
>
> I agree that "The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.". Sirius
> and Snape [assuming that Snape was good] form this alliance together in the
> fight against LV. It doesn't mean they ever liked each other or would not be
> open enemies after the fight with LV over.
>
> The good guys [Harry, Ron etc] do some "evil"... lie, cheat, etc.; bad guy
> do good things sometimes... I will still use the terms "good guy" when
> talking about Hagrid and Harry and "evil" when talking about Bellatrix.
> There are some interesting characters like Umbrage who has done nothing but
> evil but is most likely on the right side [I don't think that she wants LV
> to win].
>
> I think the question still comes to... is Snape now on DD side, LV side or
> his own.
>
> Ken
That's been my theory all along. It's not a question of good or evil,
right or wrong; it's a question of where are Snape's loyalties...with
Dumbledore or Voldemort? IMO, someone could be on LV's side and not
necessarily be "evil" (cruel and sadistic, yes). To me, LV embodies all
that is "evil." Conversely, as Ken said, good guys, as well, can do
"bad" things. That doesn't make them "evil." Whenever you get into a
spy, counter-spy situation, it becomes "survival of the fittest" and
self-preservation. Snape could conceivably be on either side and still
be on Snape's side.
|
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238628 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 04:38 |
|
> That's been my theory all along. It's not a question of good or evil,
> right or wrong; it's a question of where are Snape's loyalties...with
> Dumbledore or Voldemort? IMO, someone could be on LV's side and not
> necessarily be "evil" (cruel and sadistic, yes). To me, LV embodies all
> that is "evil." Conversely, as Ken said, good guys, as well, can do
> "bad" things. That doesn't make them "evil." Whenever you get into a
> spy, counter-spy situation, it becomes "survival of the fittest" and
> self-preservation. Snape could conceivably be on either side and still
> be on Snape's side.
With all of these side possibilities in mind, I think the question
should be put a bit more concretely. We know that Voldemort will be
defeated (whether killed, or something more sinister); I think that
Rowling would be pilloried by a worldwide movement otherwise. So maybe
the right question is, which of the following is true?
1. Snape will help to defeat Voldemort.
2. Snape will defend Voldemort to the end.
3. Snape will play no role in defeating Voldemort.
--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
(Location of these pages soon to change. Stay tuned for updates.)
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238633 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 05:10 |
|
Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> Kish wrote:
>
>
>>The subject line is insupportable. He is clearly either a traitor
>>to Dumbledore or a traitor to Voldemort; you can't claim to
>>serve two archenemies and not be a traitor. :-p
>
>
> LOL! I thought something along those lines, too. Yes, he IS a traitor..
> The question is, who is he really betraying?
He's not a traitor! He pulled a Rudolph Hess, and thought that he could
make peace between Dumbledore and Voldemort!
Regards,
John
|
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238634 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 05:21 |
|
trinity wrote:
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <fisheye [at] deadmoon.circus> wrote:
>> Jonathan Rodriguez wrote:
>>> "chappy" <chappy2235 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It's called channeling. She is channeling the prophecy from
>>>> the other side so she is just like a pipe. Channeling is over
>>>> and pipe is empty. Point revoided.
>>>
>>> You are missing the point, he is right in a way because if the
>>> prophecy can't be extracted from Trelawney then why is
>>> Dumbledore getting into so much trouble by going against
>>> the ministry just to keep her protected in the castle when
>>> Umbridge kicks her out.
>>
>> The DE's probably don't know that they can't get the info out
>> of her, and may well try to kill her in the process of getting the
>> information out of her.
>>
> I doubt that Death Eaters would lose much sleep over killing Sybil
> Trelawny in the course of questioning her over something that
> Voldemort consider so critical.
Exactly my point.
> You underestimate the importance of the prophecy to him.
Where do I do that?
> Voldemort wanted it badly enough to make a personal visit to
> the ministry.
Yes, I've read the fifth book.
How is this relevant?
> If Snape was a good little Death Eater he would have offered up
> the seer for the brownie points alone.
Ok.
You know that's not the point I'm address, right? I'm telling y'all what I
think DD would keep Trelawny at Hogwarts even if the DE's can't get the
info from her.
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"If it weren't for the dozens of idiot drivers in front of you, you'd be
home by now."
-Rock station advertisement.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238643 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 08:54 |
|
trinity schrieb:
> Point re-unvoided
There's no reason to believe Snape did not reveal the prophet's identity to
LV. Since he hasn't ordered anyone to go after Trelawny in his time while
he was still powerful it's quite clear the prophecy cannot be extracted
from the person who uttered it since it's not in there.
Point re-voided.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238654 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 09:31 |
|
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:04:05 GMT, trinity <th [at] 'sallfolks.com> wrote:
>In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
>wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
>magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by Prof.
>Trewlany. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time, read
>her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds & handed her
>staight to Voldemort.
If she even remembers it. DD could have removed the only memory she
had.
>The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in advance
>by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
>
>Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
>redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
>
>You read it here first.
Nope. many have speculated Snape's Sacrifice.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238655 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 09:32 |
|
On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 04:10:04 GMT, John VanSickle
<evilsnack [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
>Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
>> Kish wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The subject line is insupportable. He is clearly either a traitor
>>>to Dumbledore or a traitor to Voldemort; you can't claim to
>>>serve two archenemies and not be a traitor. :-p
>>
>>
>> LOL! I thought something along those lines, too. Yes, he IS a traitor..
>> The question is, who is he really betraying?
>
>He's not a traitor! He pulled a Rudolph Hess, and thought that he could
>make peace between Dumbledore and Voldemort!
>
>Regards,
>John
Or he has a split personality. One loyal to DD, one to V.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238656 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 09:32 |
|
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 23:36:55 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>trinity wrote:
>
>> In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
>> wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
>> magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by Prof.
>> Trewlany. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time, read
>> her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds & handed her
>> staight to Voldemort.
>> The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in advance
>> by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
>>
>> Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
>> redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
>>
>> You read it here first.
>
>You title is indeed correct - but not for the reasons you mention.
>Obviously - Snape is not a traitor to Riddle.
Because there is no Riddle.
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238659 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 09:39 |
|
trinity wrote:
> Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
> redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
> You read it here first.
You're joking, right?
People have been speculating that Snape will die saving Harry for YEARS.
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"If it weren't for the dozens of idiot drivers in front of you, you'd be
home by now."
-Rock station advertisement.
|
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238663 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 09:54 |
|
Jonathan Rodriguez schrieb:
> "chappy" <chappy2235 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1142697797.877812.100350 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>>trinity wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:04:32 +0100, Peter <epeter [at] online.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>trinity schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>>In OOTP almost the entire book was taken up with the antics of those
>>>>>wacky death eaters trying to steal a prophecy from the ministry of
>>>>>magic. Severus Snape knew that the original prophecy was made by Prof.
>>>>>Trewlany. He could have easily gotten it from her at any time, read
>>>>>her mind or tricked her into leaving the school grounds & handed her
>>>>>staight to Voldemort.
>>>>>The plan to kill DD & run back to Voldemort was worked out in advance
>>>>>by DD & an unwilling Snape when they argued in the woods in HBP.
>>>>>
>>>>>Snape may not be the best man at Harry & Ginny's wedding but he will
>>>>>redeem himself - probably by dying to save Harry from Voldemort.
>>>>>
>>>>>You read it here first.
>>>>
>>>>Unless I am mistaken Trelawney does NOT remember her true prophecies, so
>>>>your point is void.
>>>
>>>She doesn't have to remember them for them to still be in her head.
>>>She made the prophecies so she retains the memory of them even if she
>>>has no conscious recollection.
>>>Point unvoided.
>>
>>It's called channeling. She is channeling the prophecy from the other
>>side so she is just like a pipe. Channeling is over and pipe is empty.
>>Point revoided.
>>
>
>
> You are missing the point, he is right in a way because if the prophecy
> can't be extracted from Trelawney then why is Dumbledore getting into so
> much trouble by going against the ministry just to keep her protected in the
> castle when Umbridge kicks her out.
>
>
People able to make genuine Prophecies seem to be rare. So Dumbledore
kept her about to
A) Prevent her Talent from being used by the DE
B) Hoping she will make another Prophecy
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238684 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 15:52 |
|
Peter wrote:
> People able to make genuine Prophecies seem to be rare. So Dumbledore
> kept her about to
> A) Prevent her Talent from being used by the DE
> B) Hoping she will make another Prophecy
Not the way I read it. DD seemed surprised that she made a 2nd real
prophecy, 15 years later. The MOM had rows and rows stacked with prophecies.
DD had her for her protection regardless if her memory could successfully be
extracted or not.
Ken
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| Re: Severus Snape is not a traitor [message #238694 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 17:07 |
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Here in Minnesota wrote:
> JoeMo wrote:
> Snip
>
> >> 1. Snape is on DD side
> >> 2. Snape is on LV side
> >> 3. Snape is on neither DD or LV side
> >
> > I would disagree that there are only *three* possibilities... Snape
> > could be on one side or the other, he could also be on no one's side
> > (his own side), he could also be on one side for one book, then
> > another side for another book. He could be on LV's side on some
> > issues, but DD's on other issues. He could agree with DD's ideals,
> > but hate Harry so much he wants to fight against whatever side
> > Harry's on. He could be against the wizard that killed Lilly. He
> > could be for the Dark Arts but against LV's hysterical blood-purity
> > nonsense. He could be for whatever side is stronger. He could be for
> > whatever side the Malfoys are on. He could be for whatever side shows
> > him the most love and loyalty. He could be for whatever side will
> > give him the best opportunity to use his talents... I could go on,
> > but I think my point is made.
> >
> >> the forth choice doesn't make any sense
> >>
> >> 4. Snape is on both DD and LV side
> >>
> >> but I'm of the view that "he who is against LV is for DD" and more
> >> or less ignore the 3 possibility.
> >
> > Whereas I completely disagree with this kind of black-and-white
> > thinking. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. Just ask
> > Osama bin laden, after the CIA trained him up "real good" to fight the
> > Russians.
> >
> > Snape has been anything but black-and-white so far, and I don't see
> > that changing at the last minute. I will be extremely dissappointed in
> > JKR if it turns out that either Snape was good all along, or that he's
> > been evil all along. A character like this deserves a much more
> > satifying and complex rationale.
>
> Some thoughts...
>
> You don't have to agree completely with a person, country or cause to "be on
> that side". There are several originations that I'm a part of and I don't
> agree with any of them completely. My wife and I don't agree on everything
> but I know where my loyalty lies... I'm on her side.
I don't like this analogy, because (I'm assuming) there's a strong bond
of love between you and your wife, one which I believe doesn't exist
between Snape and LV, or between Snape and DD. Even if there is some
love there, it's certainly not as strong as the love a husband feels
for his wife. (at least most husbands and wives ;) )
I prefer to think about it in terms of politics... I voted for John
Kerry in the last U.S. election, not because I liked him a great deal,
or because I was loyal to him, but because I hate Bush. I think Bush is
the equivilent of LV... A friend of mine is a lifelong Republican, but
hates Bush too... he voted for Kerry for the same reason. (We could
call him Snape in this analogy) He "betrayed" his side because he
didn't believe in what his leader was doing. (What I believe was a
large part of the motivation of Snape's apparant conversion before
OotP/HBP) So... imagine that my friend discovered some kind of fatal
weakness in Kerry days before the election... a level of weakness that
made him believe that Kerry was unfit for the office. Then he may be
persuaded to vote for Bush, even though he doesn't agree with the man,
and doesn't want to see him re-elected.
That's kind of what I think about Snape... I think he doesn't like
Voldemort, and wants to see him fall... but he lost faith in Dumbledore
somewhere along the way (maybe after the ministry battle, and the
injury with his hand) So he decides Voldemort's side is stronger. and
throws his chips in with their lot, despite his distaste for the Dark
Lord's politics, as it were. To me, this explains Snape's sneering
"lesson" to Harry in the Flight of the Prince. He wants to see Harry
defeat LV, but has so little faith in the boy that he doesn't think it
will happen. So he gives him advice in the same unhelpful, jerky way
that he's "taught" Harry throughout the series. Saying pretty much,
"here's the way to do it, but I know you're not capable of doing it, so
I'll rub your nose in it." Now... in the scenario I've just given, is
Snape on DD's side or on LV's side?
BTW, it's obvious that you have thought about all this alot more than
some of the SNAPE IS GOOD/SNAPE IS EVIL posters I've seen here. I
understand what you mean about it all coming down to one of three
scenarios... I just don't want it to go down like that, so I'm trying
to "think outside the box" a bit to find a possibility that I can live
with that keeps Snape's character morally ambiguous intact. :)
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