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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux
| Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238535] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 04:23 |
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20 (spoiler warning)
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The strongest evidence towards Harry being a Horcrux seems to come from
CoS and OotP. In CoS, Harry asks Dumbledore "Voldemort put a bit of
himself in _me_?" (underscores used in place of book's italics), and
Dumbledore replies "It certainly seems so." Also, in CoS, on pages
233-234 of CoS, we read that "while Harry was sure that he had never
heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something
to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very
small, and had half-forgotten."
Of course, in OotP, there's the scene where Voldemort possesses Harry
and uses him to challenge Dumbledore to kill him, along with the very
intimate contact Harry has with Voldemort's mind throughout the book
and his feeling (on page 475, before he and Dumbledore take the Portkey
to visit Arthur Weasley at the hospital) that he would like to sink his
fangs into Dumbledore. But I think I can account for all that by
another means.
In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry (when they are in the cave where the
fake Horcrux is) that "magic always leaves traces." Also, he supposes
that Voldemort cannot know when a soul piece is destroyed because it
has been detached from him for too long. It has been suggested before
(and I agree completely with this theory), that if Voldemort had made
Harry into a Horcrux, it happened as an inadvertent by-product of the
botched assassination attempt. Harry is 15 in OotP, so this means there
was a period of about 14 years between this and the events of OotP. If
time wears down Voldemort's ability to know the status of his soul
fragments, it should also corespondingly wear down the ability of those
soul fragments to know about him. Therefore I don't think Harry being a
Horcrux is the reason for the pieces of evidence for his being a
Horcrux; instead I think that the connection between Harry and
Voldemort (which is so strong it can work even when Harry is on campus
and Voldemort is not) is just a trace of the killing curse which
backfired on Voldemort. Perhaps it is only present because Dumbledore
chose, after this happened,. not to remove Harry's scar. This makes
sense because Dumbledore was probably aware then (as he was in the
cave) that magic always leaves traces and he thought that trace could
be useful against Voldemort, and that therefore it would make sense to
leave it.
A consequence of this is that it might be possible for Harry to kill
Voldemort without having to die himself. I believe, on the other hand,
that Harry will die for the following reason:
In the "The Seer Overheard" chapter of HBP, Professor Trelawney tells
Harry about how her cartomancy reveals, through the repeated appearance
of cards that bode ill, that calamity and disaster were "coming nearer
all the time". When she shows Harry a card she pulls from underneath
her shawl, it is the lighning-struck tower. "The Lightning-Struck
Tower" is also the name of the chapter of HBP at the end of which
Dumbledore dies. This suggests to me that her cartomancy was genuine
divination. Also, her prediction, at the beginning of term, that
"around Easter, one of our number will leave us forever" came true. So
I think she has some real talent as a seer. Also, the way she talks
about repeated cartomancy suggests that more weight is to be given to
readings which come up repeatedly, such has her predictions of doom for
Harry (which extend beyond the third year, as we read in subsequent
books), which seem to be different from her predictions of the death of
a student each year (which McGonagall alludes to on page 109 of PoA) in
that those probably change their object every year. Therefore I am
guessing that Professor Trelawney's predictions of doom for Harry are
(at least partly) genuine and that he will die at the end of book 7. (I
imagine I will get rebuffed a lot for this one)
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238539 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 05:09 |
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I forgot to add more detail about my view of the scene where Voldemort
possesses Harry in the MoM. If Harry were a Horcrux, Voldemort should
not need to be so close to Harry in order to possess him. When Nagini
attacked Arthur Weasley at the MoM, we were given no indication
Voldemort was close by (although we also don't have an indication he
wasn't).
On the other hand, when Voldemort possessed Harry at the MoM, we see
Harry "locked in the coils of a creature with red eyes" and are told
that this is real (not just Harry's perception), since he gets
physically relocated (for "He was gone from the hall") once he is in
the grip of this snake. Also, we are given no indication as to where
Voldemort is while this is happening, and the snake immediately
releases him once he thinks "I'll get to see Sirius again". I do not
think Nagini (though I don't have a good way to back this up) would
have had such a severe reaction to Harry's love of Sirius. Also, (I may
need to reread this part of OotP to be sure) I believe we never see
Nagini at the MoM. Therefore it seems plausible to me that Voldemort is
the snake that bound Harry (and he is "so immersed in evil" that
Harry's love of Sirius would have been agonizing to experience) in the
possession scene. Also, this would mean that Voldemort is an animagus.
This offers an explanation for why Harry felt he wanted to sink his
fangs into Dumbledore: Voldemort had just completed the Animagus charm
and transformed for the first time into a snake and thought how he
wanted to sink his fangs into Dumbledore.
Just so I am not misunderstood on this point: I do not think Voldemort
and Nagini are one and the same. GoF, where we see them separate at the
resurrection scene, makes this plain.
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238546 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 07:52 |
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dlh wrote:
> 20 (spoiler warning)
>
> 19
>
> 18
>
> 17
>
> 16
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> 15
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> 14
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> 12
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> 11
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> 8
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> 7
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> 3
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> 2
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> 1
>
> The strongest evidence towards Harry being a Horcrux seems to come from
> CoS and OotP. In CoS, Harry asks Dumbledore "Voldemort put a bit of
> himself in _me_?" (underscores used in place of book's italics), and
> Dumbledore replies "It certainly seems so." Also, in CoS, on pages
> 233-234 of CoS, we read that "while Harry was sure that he had never
> heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something
> to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very
> small, and had half-forgotten."
I think there is other evidence as well. We see it starting in COS. The
voice in Harry's head that starts out as nasty and becomes more
reasonable and helpful over time. I will include the quotes at the end
of the message.
> (and I agree completely with this theory), that if Voldemort had made
> Harry into a Horcrux, it happened as an inadvertent by-product of the
> botched assassination attempt. Harry is 15 in OotP, so this means there
> was a period of about 14 years between this and the events of OotP. If
> time wears down Voldemort's ability to know the status of his soul
> fragments, it should also corespondingly wear down the ability of those
> soul fragments to know about him.
Again, the voice would is less nasty and more helpful as we go though
the books. And we don't hear anything about it after Voldemort
intentionally blocks himself off from Harry. It may have been a way for
Harry to access Voldemort's knowledge without Voldemort knowing about
it. But as time passed, the attitude was less Voldemort.
Here are the quotes:
COS p.197
(Harry is questioning whether he is Slytherin's heir:)
Ah, said a nasty little voice in his brain, but the sorting hat wanted
to put you in
Slytherin, don't you remember?
POA p. 343
(Harry is aiming his wand at Sirius, wanting to kill him.)
Harry gripped his wand convulsively -- Do it now! said a voice in his
head -- but
the footsteps were thundering up the stairs and Harry still hadn't
done it.
GOF p. 231
(Moody is putting Harry under the Imperius curse during class.)
And then he heard Mad-Eye Moody's voice, echoing in some distant
chamber of his empty brain: Jump onto the desk...jump onto the desk...
Harry bent his knees obediently, preparing to spring.
Jump onto the desk...
Why though? Another voice has awoken in the back of his brain.
Stupid thing to do, really, said the voice.
Jump onto the desk...
No, I don't think I will, thanks, said the other voice, a little more
firmly...no, I don't
really want to...
Jump! Now!
The next thing Harry felt was considerable pain. He had both jumped and
tried to
prevent himself from jumping -- the result was that he'd smashed
headlong into
the desk, knocking it over, and, by the feeling in his legs, fractured
both his
kneecaps.
(GOF p. 661)
Voldemort wants to Harry to answer the question with a "No", and
uses the
Imperius curse on Harry:
"I asked you whether you want me to do that again," said Voldemort
softly.
"Answer me! Imperio!"
And Harry felt, for the third time in his life, the sensation that his
mind had been
wiped of all thought...Ahm it was bliss, not to think, it was as though
he were
floating, dreaming...just answer no...say no...just answer no..
I will not, said a stronger voice, in the back of his head, I won't
answer...
Just answer no...
I won't do it, I won't say it...
Just answer no...
"I WON'T!"
And these words burst from Harry's mouth; they echoed through the
graveyard,
and the dream state was lifted as suddenly as though cold water had
been
thrown over him.
OOTP p. 166
(Harry is disappointed when Ron is made a prefect instead of him.)
(Harry thinking) If he had thought about it...what would he have
expected?
Not this, said a small and truthful voice inside his head.
Harry screwed up his face and buried his hands. He could not lie to
himself; if he
had known the prefect badge was on its way, he would have expected it
to come
to him, not Ron. Did this make him as arrogant as Draco Malfoy? Did he
think
himself superior to everyone else? Did he really believe he was better
than Ron?
No, said the small voice defiantly.
Was that true? Harry wondered, anxiously probing his own feelings.
I'm better at Quidditch, said the voice. But I'm not better at
anything else.
That was definitely true, Harry thought; he was no better than Ron in
lessons.
But what about outside lessons? What about those adventures he, Ron,
and
Hermione had had together since they had started at Hogwarts. often
risking
much worse than expulsion?
Well, Ron and Hermione were with me most of the time, said the voice in
Harry's
head.
Not all the time, though, Harry argued with himself. They didn't
fight Quirrell with
me. They didn't take on Riddle and the basilisk. They didn't get
rid of all those
dementors the night Sirius escaped. They weren't in that graveyard
with me, the
night Voldemort returned...
And the same feeling of ill usage that had overwhelmed him on the night
he had
arrived rose again. I've definitely done more, Harry thought
indiginantly. I've
done more than either of them!
But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't
choose
prefects because they've gotten themselves into a load of dangerous
situations...Maybe he chooses them for other reasons...Ron must have
something you don't.
OOTP p. 534
(Snape is working with Harry on Oclumency.)
No, said a voice in Harry's head, as the memory of Cho drew nearer,
you're not
watching that, your not watching it, it's private --
He felt a sharp pain in his knee. Snape's office had come back into
view and he
realized he had fallen to the floor; one of his knees had collided
painfully with the
leg of Snape's desk. He looked up at Snape, who had lowered his wand
and was
rubbing his wrist. Theer was an angry weal there, like a corch mark.
"Did you mean to produce a Stinging Hex? asked Snape coolly.
"No," said Harry bitterly, getting up from the floor.
OOTP p. 731
(Harry is confused and doesn't know what to do.)
He wheeled around and strode blindly from the hospital wing into the
teeming
corridor where he stood, buffeted by the crowd, the panic expanding
inside him
like a poison gas so that his head swam and could not think what to
do...
Ron and Hermione, said a voice inside his head.
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238547 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 08:57 |
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Harry may or may not be a Horcrux, but at some point in the last book
he will think he is; and I agree with you, Harry will die at the end of
book 7. I believe the last chapter of the last book will be entitled
"The Man Who Died" or perhaps, "The Next Great Adventure".
Eggplant
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238561 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 14:19 |
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On 17 Mar 2006 20:09:45 -0800, "dlh" <roddleeh [at] mit.edu> wrote:
>I forgot to add more detail about my view of the scene where Voldemort
>possesses Harry in the MoM. If Harry were a Horcrux, Voldemort should
>not need to be so close to Harry in order to possess him. When Nagini
>attacked Arthur Weasley at the MoM, we were given no indication
>Voldemort was close by (although we also don't have an indication he
>wasn't).
>
>On the other hand, when Voldemort possessed Harry at the MoM, we see
>Harry "locked in the coils of a creature with red eyes" and are told
>that this is real (not just Harry's perception), since he gets
>physically relocated (for "He was gone from the hall") once he is in
>the grip of this snake. Also, we are given no indication as to where
>Voldemort is while this is happening, and the snake immediately
>releases him once he thinks "I'll get to see Sirius again". I do not
>think Nagini (though I don't have a good way to back this up) would
>have had such a severe reaction to Harry's love of Sirius. Also, (I may
>need to reread this part of OotP to be sure) I believe we never see
>Nagini at the MoM. Therefore it seems plausible to me that Voldemort is
>the snake that bound Harry (and he is "so immersed in evil" that
>Harry's love of Sirius would have been agonizing to experience) in the
>possession scene. Also, this would mean that Voldemort is an animagus.
>This offers an explanation for why Harry felt he wanted to sink his
>fangs into Dumbledore: Voldemort had just completed the Animagus charm
>and transformed for the first time into a snake and thought how he
>wanted to sink his fangs into Dumbledore.
>
>Just so I am not misunderstood on this point: I do not think Voldemort
>and Nagini are one and the same. GoF, where we see them separate at the
>resurrection scene, makes this plain.
I think Harry has purified the Soul Bit, so it's now a totally
separate entity from V's master Soul, and through the sue of Harry's
blood, can be reinserted into V, where the natural love of the Soul
Bit will destroy him from within.
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238570 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 16:06 |
|
friesian [at] zoocrewphoto.com wrote:
> dlh wrote:
> > 20 (spoiler warning)
> >
> > 19
> >
> > 18
> >
> > 17
> >
> > 16
> >
> > 15
> >
> > 14
> >
> > 13
> >
> > 12
> >
> > 11
> >
> > 10
> >
> > 9
> >
> > 8
> >
> > 7
> >
> > 6
> >
> > 5
> >
> > 4
> >
> > 3
> >
> > 2
> >
> > 1
> >
> > The strongest evidence towards Harry being a Horcrux seems to come from
> > CoS and OotP. In CoS, Harry asks Dumbledore "Voldemort put a bit of
> > himself in _me_?" (underscores used in place of book's italics), and
> > Dumbledore replies "It certainly seems so." Also, in CoS, on pages
> > 233-234 of CoS, we read that "while Harry was sure that he had never
> > heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something
> > to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very
> > small, and had half-forgotten."
>
> I think there is other evidence as well. We see it starting in COS. The
> voice in Harry's head that starts out as nasty and becomes more
> reasonable and helpful over time. I will include the quotes at the end
> of the message.
>
> > (and I agree completely with this theory), that if Voldemort had made
> > Harry into a Horcrux, it happened as an inadvertent by-product of the
> > botched assassination attempt. Harry is 15 in OotP, so this means there
> > was a period of about 14 years between this and the events of OotP. If
> > time wears down Voldemort's ability to know the status of his soul
> > fragments, it should also corespondingly wear down the ability of those
> > soul fragments to know about him.
>
> Again, the voice would is less nasty and more helpful as we go though
> the books. And we don't hear anything about it after Voldemort
> intentionally blocks himself off from Harry. It may have been a way for
> Harry to access Voldemort's knowledge without Voldemort knowing about
> it. But as time passed, the attitude was less Voldemort.
>
>
> Here are the quotes:
>
> COS p.197
> (Harry is questioning whether he is Slytherin's heir:)
>
> Ah, said a nasty little voice in his brain, but the sorting hat wanted
> to put you in
> Slytherin, don't you remember?
>
>
> POA p. 343
> (Harry is aiming his wand at Sirius, wanting to kill him.)
>
> Harry gripped his wand convulsively -- Do it now! said a voice in his
> head -- but
> the footsteps were thundering up the stairs and Harry still hadn't
> done it.
>
>
> GOF p. 231
> (Moody is putting Harry under the Imperius curse during class.)
>
> And then he heard Mad-Eye Moody's voice, echoing in some distant
> chamber of his empty brain: Jump onto the desk...jump onto the desk...
>
> Harry bent his knees obediently, preparing to spring.
>
> Jump onto the desk...
>
> Why though? Another voice has awoken in the back of his brain.
> Stupid thing to do, really, said the voice.
>
> Jump onto the desk...
>
> No, I don't think I will, thanks, said the other voice, a little more
> firmly...no, I don't
> really want to...
>
> Jump! Now!
>
> The next thing Harry felt was considerable pain. He had both jumped and
> tried to
> prevent himself from jumping -- the result was that he'd smashed
> headlong into
> the desk, knocking it over, and, by the feeling in his legs, fractured
> both his
> kneecaps.
>
>
>
> (GOF p. 661)
> Voldemort wants to Harry to answer the question with a "No", and
> uses the
> Imperius curse on Harry:
>
> "I asked you whether you want me to do that again," said Voldemort
> softly.
> "Answer me! Imperio!"
>
> And Harry felt, for the third time in his life, the sensation that his
> mind had been
> wiped of all thought...Ahm it was bliss, not to think, it was as though
> he were
> floating, dreaming...just answer no...say no...just answer no..
>
> I will not, said a stronger voice, in the back of his head, I won't
> answer...
>
> Just answer no...
>
> I won't do it, I won't say it...
>
> Just answer no...
>
> "I WON'T!"
>
> And these words burst from Harry's mouth; they echoed through the
> graveyard,
> and the dream state was lifted as suddenly as though cold water had
> been
> thrown over him.
>
>
>
> OOTP p. 166
> (Harry is disappointed when Ron is made a prefect instead of him.)
>
> (Harry thinking) If he had thought about it...what would he have
> expected?
>
> Not this, said a small and truthful voice inside his head.
>
> Harry screwed up his face and buried his hands. He could not lie to
> himself; if he
> had known the prefect badge was on its way, he would have expected it
> to come
> to him, not Ron. Did this make him as arrogant as Draco Malfoy? Did he
> think
> himself superior to everyone else? Did he really believe he was better
> than Ron?
>
> No, said the small voice defiantly.
>
> Was that true? Harry wondered, anxiously probing his own feelings.
>
> I'm better at Quidditch, said the voice. But I'm not better at
> anything else.
>
> That was definitely true, Harry thought; he was no better than Ron in
> lessons.
> But what about outside lessons? What about those adventures he, Ron,
> and
> Hermione had had together since they had started at Hogwarts. often
> risking
> much worse than expulsion?
>
> Well, Ron and Hermione were with me most of the time, said the voice in
> Harry's
> head.
>
> Not all the time, though, Harry argued with himself. They didn't
> fight Quirrell with
> me. They didn't take on Riddle and the basilisk. They didn't get
> rid of all those
> dementors the night Sirius escaped. They weren't in that graveyard
> with me, the
> night Voldemort returned...
>
> And the same feeling of ill usage that had overwhelmed him on the night
> he had
> arrived rose again. I've definitely done more, Harry thought
> indiginantly. I've
> done more than either of them!
>
> But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't
> choose
> prefects because they've gotten themselves into a load of dangerous
> situations...Maybe he chooses them for other reasons...Ron must have
> something you don't.
>
> OOTP p. 534
> (Snape is working with Harry on Oclumency.)
>
> No, said a voice in Harry's head, as the memory of Cho drew nearer,
> you're not
> watching that, your not watching it, it's private --
>
> He felt a sharp pain in his knee. Snape's office had come back into
> view and he
> realized he had fallen to the floor; one of his knees had collided
> painfully with the
> leg of Snape's desk. He looked up at Snape, who had lowered his wand
> and was
> rubbing his wrist. Theer was an angry weal there, like a corch mark.
>
> "Did you mean to produce a Stinging Hex? asked Snape coolly.
>
> "No," said Harry bitterly, getting up from the floor.
>
>
>
> OOTP p. 731
> (Harry is confused and doesn't know what to do.)
>
> He wheeled around and strode blindly from the hospital wing into the
> teeming
> corridor where he stood, buffeted by the crowd, the panic expanding
> inside him
> like a poison gas so that his head swam and could not think what to
> do...
>
> Ron and Hermione, said a voice inside his head.
While I can understand your rationale in listing the above scenes to
support your theory that Harry is a horcrux (albeit, accidentally),
IMO, I think you're reading too much into these scenes to support your
theory. The wonderful thing about fiction is the ability of an author
to convey character feelings and nuances to the reader that otherwise
can't be verbalized in a video medium. Playing devil's advocate here,
the above passages could be descriptive explanations of what Harry is
feeling at those moments showing his inner turmoil during the scenes.
All fiction has these elements, otherwise all you would be reading is a
movie script.
|
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238571 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 16:11 |
|
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> friesian [at] zoocrewphoto.com wrote:
> > dlh wrote:
> > > 20 (spoiler warning)
> > >
> > > 19
> > >
> > > 18
> > >
> > > 17
> > >
> > > 16
> > >
> > > 15
> > >
> > > 14
> > >
> > > 13
> > >
> > > 12
> > >
> > > 11
> > >
> > > 10
> > >
> > > 9
> > >
> > > 8
> > >
> > > 7
> > >
> > > 6
> > >
> > > 5
> > >
> > > 4
> > >
> > > 3
> > >
> > > 2
> > >
> > > 1
> > >
> > > The strongest evidence towards Harry being a Horcrux seems to come from
> > > CoS and OotP. In CoS, Harry asks Dumbledore "Voldemort put a bit of
> > > himself in _me_?" (underscores used in place of book's italics), and
> > > Dumbledore replies "It certainly seems so." Also, in CoS, on pages
> > > 233-234 of CoS, we read that "while Harry was sure that he had never
> > > heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something
> > > to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very
> > > small, and had half-forgotten."
> >
> > I think there is other evidence as well. We see it starting in COS. The
> > voice in Harry's head that starts out as nasty and becomes more
> > reasonable and helpful over time. I will include the quotes at the end
> > of the message.
> >
> > > (and I agree completely with this theory), that if Voldemort had made
> > > Harry into a Horcrux, it happened as an inadvertent by-product of the
> > > botched assassination attempt. Harry is 15 in OotP, so this means there
> > > was a period of about 14 years between this and the events of OotP. If
> > > time wears down Voldemort's ability to know the status of his soul
> > > fragments, it should also corespondingly wear down the ability of those
> > > soul fragments to know about him.
> >
> > Again, the voice would is less nasty and more helpful as we go though
> > the books. And we don't hear anything about it after Voldemort
> > intentionally blocks himself off from Harry. It may have been a way for
> > Harry to access Voldemort's knowledge without Voldemort knowing about
> > it. But as time passed, the attitude was less Voldemort.
> >
> >
> > Here are the quotes:
> >
> > COS p.197
> > (Harry is questioning whether he is Slytherin's heir:)
> >
> > Ah, said a nasty little voice in his brain, but the sorting hat wanted
> > to put you in
> > Slytherin, don't you remember?
> >
> >
> > POA p. 343
> > (Harry is aiming his wand at Sirius, wanting to kill him.)
> >
> > Harry gripped his wand convulsively -- Do it now! said a voice in his
> > head -- but
> > the footsteps were thundering up the stairs and Harry still hadn't
> > done it.
> >
> >
> > GOF p. 231
> > (Moody is putting Harry under the Imperius curse during class.)
> >
> > And then he heard Mad-Eye Moody's voice, echoing in some distant
> > chamber of his empty brain: Jump onto the desk...jump onto the desk...
> >
> > Harry bent his knees obediently, preparing to spring.
> >
> > Jump onto the desk...
> >
> > Why though? Another voice has awoken in the back of his brain.
> > Stupid thing to do, really, said the voice.
> >
> > Jump onto the desk...
> >
> > No, I don't think I will, thanks, said the other voice, a little more
> > firmly...no, I don't
> > really want to...
> >
> > Jump! Now!
> >
> > The next thing Harry felt was considerable pain. He had both jumped and
> > tried to
> > prevent himself from jumping -- the result was that he'd smashed
> > headlong into
> > the desk, knocking it over, and, by the feeling in his legs, fractured
> > both his
> > kneecaps.
> >
> >
> >
> > (GOF p. 661)
> > Voldemort wants to Harry to answer the question with a "No", and
> > uses the
> > Imperius curse on Harry:
> >
> > "I asked you whether you want me to do that again," said Voldemort
> > softly.
> > "Answer me! Imperio!"
> >
> > And Harry felt, for the third time in his life, the sensation that his
> > mind had been
> > wiped of all thought...Ahm it was bliss, not to think, it was as though
> > he were
> > floating, dreaming...just answer no...say no...just answer no..
> >
> > I will not, said a stronger voice, in the back of his head, I won't
> > answer...
> >
> > Just answer no...
> >
> > I won't do it, I won't say it...
> >
> > Just answer no...
> >
> > "I WON'T!"
> >
> > And these words burst from Harry's mouth; they echoed through the
> > graveyard,
> > and the dream state was lifted as suddenly as though cold water had
> > been
> > thrown over him.
> >
> >
> >
> > OOTP p. 166
> > (Harry is disappointed when Ron is made a prefect instead of him.)
> >
> > (Harry thinking) If he had thought about it...what would he have
> > expected?
> >
> > Not this, said a small and truthful voice inside his head.
> >
> > Harry screwed up his face and buried his hands. He could not lie to
> > himself; if he
> > had known the prefect badge was on its way, he would have expected it
> > to come
> > to him, not Ron. Did this make him as arrogant as Draco Malfoy? Did he
> > think
> > himself superior to everyone else? Did he really believe he was better
> > than Ron?
> >
> > No, said the small voice defiantly.
> >
> > Was that true? Harry wondered, anxiously probing his own feelings.
> >
> > I'm better at Quidditch, said the voice. But I'm not better at
> > anything else.
> >
> > That was definitely true, Harry thought; he was no better than Ron in
> > lessons.
> > But what about outside lessons? What about those adventures he, Ron,
> > and
> > Hermione had had together since they had started at Hogwarts. often
> > risking
> > much worse than expulsion?
> >
> > Well, Ron and Hermione were with me most of the time, said the voice in
> > Harry's
> > head.
> >
> > Not all the time, though, Harry argued with himself. They didn't
> > fight Quirrell with
> > me. They didn't take on Riddle and the basilisk. They didn't get
> > rid of all those
> > dementors the night Sirius escaped. They weren't in that graveyard
> > with me, the
> > night Voldemort returned...
> >
> > And the same feeling of ill usage that had overwhelmed him on the night
> > he had
> > arrived rose again. I've definitely done more, Harry thought
> > indiginantly. I've
> > done more than either of them!
> >
> > But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't
> > choose
> > prefects because they've gotten themselves into a load of dangerous
> > situations...Maybe he chooses them for other reasons...Ron must have
> > something you don't.
> >
> > OOTP p. 534
> > (Snape is working with Harry on Oclumency.)
> >
> > No, said a voice in Harry's head, as the memory of Cho drew nearer,
> > you're not
> > watching that, your not watching it, it's private --
> >
> > He felt a sharp pain in his knee. Snape's office had come back into
> > view and he
> > realized he had fallen to the floor; one of his knees had collided
> > painfully with the
> > leg of Snape's desk. He looked up at Snape, who had lowered his wand
> > and was
> > rubbing his wrist. Theer was an angry weal there, like a corch mark.
> >
> > "Did you mean to produce a Stinging Hex? asked Snape coolly.
> >
> > "No," said Harry bitterly, getting up from the floor.
> >
> >
> >
> > OOTP p. 731
> > (Harry is confused and doesn't know what to do.)
> >
> > He wheeled around and strode blindly from the hospital wing into the
> > teeming
> > corridor where he stood, buffeted by the crowd, the panic expanding
> > inside him
> > like a poison gas so that his head swam and could not think what to
> > do...
> >
> > Ron and Hermione, said a voice inside his head.
>
>
> While I can understand your rationale in listing the above scenes to
> support a theory that Harry is a horcrux (albeit, accidentally),
> IMO, I think you're reading too much into these scenes to support your
> theory. The wonderful thing about fiction is the ability of an author
> to convey character feelings and nuances to the reader that otherwise
> can't be verbalized in a video medium. Playing devil's advocate here,
> the above passages could be descriptive explanations of what Harry is
> feeling at those moments showing his inner turmoil during the scenes.
> All fiction has these elements, otherwise all you would be reading is a
> movie script.
|
|
|
| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238574 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 16:29 |
|
friesian [at] zoocrewphoto.com wrote:
> dlh wrote:
> > 20 (spoiler warning)
> >
> > 19
> >
> > 18
> >
> > 17
> >
> > 16
> >
> > 15
> >
> > 14
> >
> > 13
> >
> > 12
> >
> > 11
> >
> > 10
> >
> > 9
> >
> > 8
> >
> > 7
> >
> > 6
> >
> > 5
> >
> > 4
> >
> > 3
> >
> > 2
> >
> > 1
> >
> > The strongest evidence towards Harry being a Horcrux seems to come from
> > CoS and OotP. In CoS, Harry asks Dumbledore "Voldemort put a bit of
> > himself in _me_?" (underscores used in place of book's italics), and
> > Dumbledore replies "It certainly seems so." Also, in CoS, on pages
> > 233-234 of CoS, we read that "while Harry was sure that he had never
> > heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something
> > to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very
> > small, and had half-forgotten."
>
> I think there is other evidence as well. We see it starting in COS. The
> voice in Harry's head that starts out as nasty and becomes more
> reasonable and helpful over time. I will include the quotes at the end
> of the message.
>
> > (and I agree completely with this theory), that if Voldemort had made
> > Harry into a Horcrux, it happened as an inadvertent by-product of the
> > botched assassination attempt. Harry is 15 in OotP, so this means there
> > was a period of about 14 years between this and the events of OotP. If
> > time wears down Voldemort's ability to know the status of his soul
> > fragments, it should also corespondingly wear down the ability of those
> > soul fragments to know about him.
>
> Again, the voice would is less nasty and more helpful as we go though
> the books. And we don't hear anything about it after Voldemort
> intentionally blocks himself off from Harry. It may have been a way for
> Harry to access Voldemort's knowledge without Voldemort knowing about
> it. But as time passed, the attitude was less Voldemort.
>
>
> Here are the quotes:
>
> COS p.197
> (Harry is questioning whether he is Slytherin's heir:)
>
> Ah, said a nasty little voice in his brain, but the sorting hat wanted
> to put you in
> Slytherin, don't you remember?
>
>
> POA p. 343
> (Harry is aiming his wand at Sirius, wanting to kill him.)
>
> Harry gripped his wand convulsively -- Do it now! said a voice in his
> head -- but
> the footsteps were thundering up the stairs and Harry still hadn't
> done it.
>
>
> GOF p. 231
> (Moody is putting Harry under the Imperius curse during class.)
>
> And then he heard Mad-Eye Moody's voice, echoing in some distant
> chamber of his empty brain: Jump onto the desk...jump onto the desk...
>
> Harry bent his knees obediently, preparing to spring.
>
> Jump onto the desk...
>
> Why though? Another voice has awoken in the back of his brain.
> Stupid thing to do, really, said the voice.
>
> Jump onto the desk...
>
> No, I don't think I will, thanks, said the other voice, a little more
> firmly...no, I don't
> really want to...
>
> Jump! Now!
>
> The next thing Harry felt was considerable pain. He had both jumped and
> tried to
> prevent himself from jumping -- the result was that he'd smashed
> headlong into
> the desk, knocking it over, and, by the feeling in his legs, fractured
> both his
> kneecaps.
>
>
>
> (GOF p. 661)
> Voldemort wants to Harry to answer the question with a "No", and
> uses the
> Imperius curse on Harry:
>
> "I asked you whether you want me to do that again," said Voldemort
> softly.
> "Answer me! Imperio!"
>
> And Harry felt, for the third time in his life, the sensation that his
> mind had been
> wiped of all thought...Ahm it was bliss, not to think, it was as though
> he were
> floating, dreaming...just answer no...say no...just answer no..
>
> I will not, said a stronger voice, in the back of his head, I won't
> answer...
>
> Just answer no...
>
> I won't do it, I won't say it...
>
> Just answer no...
>
> "I WON'T!"
>
> And these words burst from Harry's mouth; they echoed through the
> graveyard,
> and the dream state was lifted as suddenly as though cold water had
> been
> thrown over him.
>
>
>
> OOTP p. 166
> (Harry is disappointed when Ron is made a prefect instead of him.)
>
> (Harry thinking) If he had thought about it...what would he have
> expected?
>
> Not this, said a small and truthful voice inside his head.
>
> Harry screwed up his face and buried his hands. He could not lie to
> himself; if he
> had known the prefect badge was on its way, he would have expected it
> to come
> to him, not Ron. Did this make him as arrogant as Draco Malfoy? Did he
> think
> himself superior to everyone else? Did he really believe he was better
> than Ron?
>
> No, said the small voice defiantly.
>
> Was that true? Harry wondered, anxiously probing his own feelings.
>
> I'm better at Quidditch, said the voice. But I'm not better at
> anything else.
>
> That was definitely true, Harry thought; he was no better than Ron in
> lessons.
> But what about outside lessons? What about those adventures he, Ron,
> and
> Hermione had had together since they had started at Hogwarts. often
> risking
> much worse than expulsion?
>
> Well, Ron and Hermione were with me most of the time, said the voice in
> Harry's
> head.
>
> Not all the time, though, Harry argued with himself. They didn't
> fight Quirrell with
> me. They didn't take on Riddle and the basilisk. They didn't get
> rid of all those
> dementors the night Sirius escaped. They weren't in that graveyard
> with me, the
> night Voldemort returned...
>
> And the same feeling of ill usage that had overwhelmed him on the night
> he had
> arrived rose again. I've definitely done more, Harry thought
> indiginantly. I've
> done more than either of them!
>
> But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't
> choose
> prefects because they've gotten themselves into a load of dangerous
> situations...Maybe he chooses them for other reasons...Ron must have
> something you don't.
>
> OOTP p. 534
> (Snape is working with Harry on Oclumency.)
>
> No, said a voice in Harry's head, as the memory of Cho drew nearer,
> you're not
> watching that, your not watching it, it's private --
>
> He felt a sharp pain in his knee. Snape's office had come back into
> view and he
> realized he had fallen to the floor; one of his knees had collided
> painfully with the
> leg of Snape's desk. He looked up at Snape, who had lowered his wand
> and was
> rubbing his wrist. Theer was an angry weal there, like a corch mark.
>
> "Did you mean to produce a Stinging Hex? asked Snape coolly.
>
> "No," said Harry bitterly, getting up from the floor.
>
>
>
> OOTP p. 731
> (Harry is confused and doesn't know what to do.)
>
> He wheeled around and strode blindly from the hospital wing into the
> teeming
> corridor where he stood, buffeted by the crowd, the panic expanding
> inside him
> like a poison gas so that his head swam and could not think what to
> do...
>
> Ron and Hermione, said a voice inside his head.
While I can understand the rationale in listing the above scenes to
support the theory that Harry is a horcrux (albeit accidentally), IMO,
I think you're reading too much into these scenes. The wonderful thing
about fiction is the ability of an author to convey character emotions
and nuances to the reader that otherwise can't be verbalized in a video
medium. Playing devil's advocate, here, the above passages could just
be a descriptive explanation of what Harry is feeling at those
particular moments, showing his inner turmoil during the scenes. All
fiction has these elements, otherwise all you would be reading is a
movie script.
|
|
|
| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238585 ] |
Sa, 18 März 2006 21:05 |
|
eggplant wrote:
> Harry may or may not be a Horcrux, but at some point in the last book
> he will think he is; and I agree with you, Harry will die at the end of
> book 7. I believe the last chapter of the last book will be entitled
> "The Man Who Died" or perhaps, "The Next Great Adventure".
>
> Eggplant
Harry's not a Horcrux. You can't accidentally make a horcrux. The act
of killing doesn't in and of itself create one. I too think Harry will
die, but since the last chapter is an epilogue, it will probably be
titled "Epilogue." JKR rarely makes her chapter titles obvious as to
their content, so it's unlikely we'll see chapter headinghs like that.
|
|
|
| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238657 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 09:38 |
|
On 17 Mar 2006 22:52:47 -0800, "friesian [at] zoocrewphoto.com"
<friesian [at] zoocrewphoto.com> wrote:
>I think there is other evidence as well. We see it starting in COS. The
>voice in Harry's head that starts out as nasty and becomes more
>reasonable and helpful over time. I will include the quotes at the end
>of the message.
>
>Again, the voice would is less nasty and more helpful as we go though
>the books. And we don't hear anything about it after Voldemort
>intentionally blocks himself off from Harry. It may have been a way for
>Harry to access Voldemort's knowledge without Voldemort knowing about
>it. But as time passed, the attitude was less Voldemort.
Yup. V's Soul bit. And it's being purified from years within Harry
and his Love filled heart.
|
|
|
| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238658 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 09:40 |
|
On 18 Mar 2006 07:06:56 -0800, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
>friesian [at] zoocrewphoto.com wrote:
>> dlh wrote:
>> > 20 (spoiler warning)
>> >
>> > 19
>> >
>> > 18
>> >
>> > 17
>> >
>> > 16
>> >
>> > 15
>> >
>> > 14
>> >
>> > 13
>> >
>> > 12
>> >
>> > 11
>> >
>> > 10
>> >
>> > 9
>> >
>> > 8
>> >
>> > 7
>> >
>> > 6
>> >
>> > 5
>> >
>> > 4
>> >
>> > 3
>> >
>> > 2
>> >
>> > 1
>While I can understand your rationale in listing the above scenes to
>support your theory that Harry is a horcrux (albeit, accidentally),
>IMO, I think you're reading too much into these scenes to support your
>theory. The wonderful thing about fiction is the ability of an author
>to convey character feelings and nuances to the reader that otherwise
>can't be verbalized in a video medium. Playing devil's advocate here,
>the above passages could be descriptive explanations of what Harry is
>feeling at those moments showing his inner turmoil during the scenes.
>All fiction has these elements, otherwise all you would be reading is a
>movie script.
We need to know what goes through the mind of another who can resist
Imperius to tell. Maybe they just don't hear the voice. Maybe they
do hear a voice and it's just Harry' subconscious fighting back.
|
|
|
| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238673 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 13:17 |
|
Toon wrote:
> Yup. V's Soul bit. And it's being purified from years within Harry
> and his Love filled heart.
I like that idea. Either the soul bit is subdued and somehow no longer
valid as a soul bit (can't help Voldemort anymore), or maybe the link
goes back and "contaminates" Voldemort.
|
|
|
| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #238674 ] |
So, 19 März 2006 13:31 |
|
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> friesian [at] zoocrewphoto.com wrote:
> > dlh wrote:
> > > 20 (spoiler warning)
> > >
> > > 19
> > >
> > > 18
> > >
> > > 17
> > >
> > > 16
> > >
> > > 15
> > >
> > > 14
> > >
> > > 13
> > >
> > > 12
> > >
> > > 11
> > >
> > > 10
> > >
> > > 9
> > >
> > > 8
> > >
> > > 7
> > >
> > > 6
> > >
> > > 5
> > >
> > > 4
> > >
> > > 3
> > >
> > > 2
> > >
> > > 1
> > >
> While I can understand the rationale in listing the above scenes to
> support the theory that Harry is a horcrux (albeit accidentally), IMO,
> I think you're reading too much into these scenes. The wonderful thing
> about fiction is the ability of an author to convey character emotions
> and nuances to the reader that otherwise can't be verbalized in a video
> medium. Playing devil's advocate, here, the above passages could just
> be a descriptive explanation of what Harry is feeling at those
> particular moments, showing his inner turmoil during the scenes. All
> fiction has these elements, otherwise all you would be reading is a
> movie script.
You may be right, but I have believed there was more to the voice since
reading it in book 4. I figured it was some part of Voldemort in Harry,
and I believe she meant it to be ignored, and only seen as a clue after
the fact.
I guess we will know after book 7 is released.
|
|
|
| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #239804 ] |
Mo, 27 März 2006 19:39 |
|
friesian [at] zoocrewphoto.com wrote:
> Toon wrote:
>
> > Yup. V's Soul bit. And it's being purified from years within Harry
> > and his Love filled heart.
>
> I like that idea. Either the soul bit is subdued and somehow no longer
> valid as a soul bit (can't help Voldemort anymore), or maybe the link
> goes back and "contaminates" Voldemort.
Another ending scenario It's quite possible that after finding all the
horcruxes, Harry could die first by Voldemort's wand. Then Voldemort
dies (either by another rebounding curse or a third party; or simply
because now that he has Harry's blood in him, there's a reverse kind of
connection between the two of them). When the AK failed originally on
Harry, some of Voldy's powers were transferred to Harry and when
Harry's blood went into LV, Harry's mortality and love were transferred
to LV. (I know something like that has been mentioned before, but I'm
only repeating it to clarify the theory). In his brief period right
after death, Harry sees Dumbledore, his parents and Sirius. DD tells
him it's not his time to join all of them, and Harry is "resurrected"
for lack of a better word. In POA DD tells Harry that the ones who
love us never really leave us and that he can alway find them in "here"
(his heart). It's the love from those who died that brings Harry back.
Just a theory, nothing more!
|
|
|
| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #239811 ] |
Mo, 27 März 2006 20:42 |
|
tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> eggplant wrote:
> > Harry may or may not be a Horcrux, but at some point in the last book
> > he will think he is; and I agree with you, Harry will die at the end of
> > book 7. I believe the last chapter of the last book will be entitled
> > "The Man Who Died" or perhaps, "The Next Great Adventure".
> >
> > Eggplant
>
> Harry's not a Horcrux. You can't accidentally make a horcrux.
you can if the spell accidentally hit a target other than the one you
intended when you did the horcrux creating spell
> The act of killing doesn't in and of itself create one.
agreed
> I too think Harry will
> die, but since the last chapter is an epilogue, it will probably be
> titled "Epilogue." JKR rarely makes her chapter titles obvious as to
> their content, so it's unlikely we'll see chapter headinghs like that.
In GoF, The Return Of Padfoot had er, padfoot returning
--
Jane Grey
|
|
|
| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #239838 ] |
Di, 28 März 2006 03:41 |
|
On 2006-03-27 13:42:25 -0500, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> said:
> tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> eggplant wrote:
>>> Harry may or may not be a Horcrux, but at some point in the last book
>>> he will think he is; and I agree with you, Harry will die at the end of
>>> book 7. I believe the last chapter of the last book will be entitled
>>> "The Man Who Died" or perhaps, "The Next Great Adventure".
>>>
>>> Eggplant
>>
>> Harry's not a Horcrux. You can't accidentally make a horcrux.
>
> you can if the spell accidentally hit a target other than the one you
> intended when you did the horcrux creating spell
>
>> The act of killing doesn't in and of itself create one.
>
> agreed
>
>> I too think Harry will
>> die, but since the last chapter is an epilogue, it will probably be
>> titled "Epilogue." JKR rarely makes her chapter titles obvious as to
>> their content, so it's unlikely we'll see chapter headinghs like that.
>
> In GoF, The Return Of Padfoot had er, padfoot returning
My thought. When LV AKd Baby Harry. Wouldn't it have rebounded so quickly
that he wouldn't have had time to begin the horcrux spell? From what
we've seen,
the AK spell is pretty quick. Seems to me that the rebound would be
just as quick.
LV may very well have taken an object to Godric's Hollow, but I can't see him
having the time (after AKing Harry) to even begin the next spell. If
he didn't have
the time to begin the next spell, then no horcrux was made...neither
accidentally nor
purposely.
--
Enjoy,
Zolak of Twylo
|
|
|
| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #239866 ] |
Di, 28 März 2006 15:17 |
|
On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 20:41:22 -0500, Zolak of Twylo
<dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote:
>My thought. When LV AKd Baby Harry. Wouldn't it have rebounded so quickly
>that he wouldn't have had time to begin the horcrux spell? From what
>we've seen,
We don't know what happens when AK rebounds off a living being. We've
seen it only hit living things, and bounce and blast inanimate's.
we've never had this scenario of bouncing off a living being.
|
|
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #239871 ] |
Di, 28 März 2006 15:25 |
|
Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> My thought. When LV AKd Baby Harry. Wouldn't it have rebounded so quickly
> that he wouldn't have had time to begin the horcrux spell? From what
> we've seen,
> the AK spell is pretty quick. Seems to me that the rebound would be
> just as quick.
> LV may very well have taken an object to Godric's Hollow, but I can't
> see him
> having the time (after AKing Harry) to even begin the next spell. If he
> didn't have
> the time to begin the next spell, then no horcrux was made...neither
> accidentally nor
> purposely.
You're thinking too logically. JKR invented this version of magic, so
she can make it work however she wants. If the plot requires that Harry
be a Horcrux, she can explain that as part of the horcrux making spell
that if the person dies after creating the soul-bit but before placing
it in an object, the soul bit flies into the object of the last spell
that person casted. No one knew this because the situation had never
happened before in the history of magic.
Or perhaps there's some restriction that a horcrux cannot be placed in a
dead body, so LV had to make Harry a horcrux first and then AK him if he
wanted a horcrux of Harry's corpse.
They're JKR's rules, she can make them whatever she needs them to be.
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #239879 ] |
Di, 28 März 2006 17:12 |
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Jane Grey wrote:
> tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > eggplant wrote:
> > > Harry may or may not be a Horcrux, but at some point in the last book
> > > he will think he is; and I agree with you, Harry will die at the end of
> > > book 7. I believe the last chapter of the last book will be entitled
> > > "The Man Who Died" or perhaps, "The Next Great Adventure".
> > >
> > > Eggplant
> >
> > Harry's not a Horcrux. You can't accidentally make a horcrux.
>
> you can if the spell accidentally hit a target other than the one you
> intended when you did the horcrux creating spell
The one you didn't have time to do because you were too busy being hit
with AK from your own wand?
*sigh*
> > I too think Harry will
> > die, but since the last chapter is an epilogue, it will probably be
> > titled "Epilogue." JKR rarely makes her chapter titles obvious as to
> > their content, so it's unlikely we'll see chapter headinghs like that.
>
> In GoF, The Return Of Padfoot had er, padfoot returning
Good point. Also, as I said before when we were making the chapter
titles for book 7, "The Man Who Died" may seem to tell too much, but if
you think about it, it's just vague enough to work. It could be Harry,
V, or Neville, or really anyone but it would be less lame if it were
Harry or V. I think the same applies to "The Next Great Adventure." It
could simply include confirmation that DD died. Or, V could die in that
chapter. It's vague enough to be a workable chapter title.
> Jane Grey
-Aaron
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243750 ] |
Do, 30 März 2006 19:57 |
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I did say RARELY, which does not indicate that it never happens. ;o)
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243753 ] |
Do, 30 März 2006 22:17 |
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Aaron wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
> > tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > > eggplant wrote:
> > > > Harry may or may not be a Horcrux, but at some point in the last book
> > > > he will think he is; and I agree with you, Harry will die at the end of
> > > > book 7. I believe the last chapter of the last book will be entitled
> > > > "The Man Who Died" or perhaps, "The Next Great Adventure".
> > > >
> > > > Eggplant
> > >
> > > Harry's not a Horcrux. You can't accidentally make a horcrux.
> >
> > you can if the spell accidentally hit a target other than the one you
> > intended when you did the horcrux creating spell
>
> The one you didn't have time to do because you were too busy being hit
> with AK from your own wand?
>
> *sigh*
In GoF before Voldemort started duelling harry he asked harry to bow,
harry would not so Voldemort shouted 'bow!' and harry felt himself
doing it. obviuosly Voldemort had wordlessly casted a spell which
caused harry's spine to curve. if a wizard can do wordless spells, they
must be able to cast spells as fast as they can think it. Voldemort is
the most powerful dark wizard so surely he would have had no trouble
starting another spell in the fraction oftime it took for the AK spell
to rebound?
Jane Grey
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243780 ] |
Fr, 31 März 2006 09:55 |
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In article <1143749845.620836.282380 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Jane
Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>Aaron wrote:
>> Jane Grey wrote:
>> > tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > eggplant wrote:
>> > > > Harry may or may not be a Horcrux, but at some point in the last book
>> > > > he will think he is; and I agree with you, Harry will die at the end of
>> > > > book 7. I believe the last chapter of the last book will be entitled
>> > > > "The Man Who Died" or perhaps, "The Next Great Adventure".
>> > > >
>> > > > Eggplant
>> > >
>> > > Harry's not a Horcrux. You can't accidentally make a horcrux.
>> >
>> > you can if the spell accidentally hit a target other than the one you
>> > intended when you did the horcrux creating spell
>>
>> The one you didn't have time to do because you were too busy being hit
>> with AK from your own wand?
>>
>> *sigh*
>
>In GoF before Voldemort started duelling harry he asked harry to bow,
>harry would not so Voldemort shouted 'bow!' and harry felt himself
>doing it. obviuosly Voldemort had wordlessly casted a spell which
>caused harry's spine to curve. if a wizard can do wordless spells, they
>must be able to cast spells as fast as they can think it. Voldemort is
>the most powerful dark wizard so surely he would have had no trouble
>starting another spell in the fraction oftime it took for the AK spell
>to rebound?
Jane, your scratchy old record is skipping again. Playing the devil's
advocate, I think I have found something that might interest you called
"Raiders of the Lost Horcrux" at:
http://www.redhen-publications.com/Horcrux.html
Here is a little excerpt:
"I think that if you go back and reread Slughorn¹s memory carefully, you
will not find anything in that (extremely dithery) account to absolutely
contradict the possibility that ³the spell² to create the Horcrux IS the
spell which actually splits the caster¹s soul ‹ by killing someone ‹ and
also moves the resulting fragment into it's external housing, all in one
smooth process."
--
Chris
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243785 ] |
Fr, 31 März 2006 11:19 |
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On 30 Mar 2006 12:17:25 -0800, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
>
>Aaron wrote:
>> Jane Grey wrote:
>> > tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > eggplant wrote:
>> > > > Harry may or may not be a Horcrux, but at some point in the last book
>> > > > he will think he is; and I agree with you, Harry will die at the end of
>> > > > book 7. I believe the last chapter of the last book will be entitled
>> > > > "The Man Who Died" or perhaps, "The Next Great Adventure".
>> > > >
>> > > > Eggplant
>> > >
>> > > Harry's not a Horcrux. You can't accidentally make a horcrux.
>> >
>> > you can if the spell accidentally hit a target other than the one you
>> > intended when you did the horcrux creating spell
>>
>> The one you didn't have time to do because you were too busy being hit
>> with AK from your own wand?
>>
>> *sigh*
>
>In GoF before Voldemort started duelling harry he asked harry to bow,
>harry would not so Voldemort shouted 'bow!' and harry felt himself
>doing it. obviuosly Voldemort had wordlessly casted a spell which
>caused harry's spine to curve. if a wizard can do wordless spells, they
>must be able to cast spells as fast as they can think it. Voldemort is
>the most powerful dark wizard so surely he would have had no trouble
>starting another spell in the fraction oftime it took for the AK spell
>to rebound?
>
>Jane Grey
Thta's why it makes better sense that it didn't rebound, it got
absorbed into Lily's protection, and the Horcrux spell inadvertently
released it. or someone arrived and Voldeie made an error rushing
through it.
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243791 ] |
Fr, 31 März 2006 16:32 |
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Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> In article <1143749845.620836.282380 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Jane
> Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Aaron wrote:
> >> Jane Grey wrote:
<anip>
> >> The one you didn't have time to do because you were too busy being hit
> >> with AK from your own wand?
> >>
> >> *sigh*
> >
> >In GoF before Voldemort started duelling harry he asked harry to bow,
> >harry would not so Voldemort shouted 'bow!' and harry felt himself
> >doing it. obviuosly Voldemort had wordlessly casted a spell which
> >caused harry's spine to curve. if a wizard can do wordless spells, they
> >must be able to cast spells as fast as they can think it. Voldemort is
> >the most powerful dark wizard so surely he would have had no trouble
> >starting another spell in the fraction oftime it took for the AK spell
> >to rebound?
>
> Jane, your scratchy old record is skipping again. Playing the devil's
> advocate, I think I have found something that might interest you called
> "Raiders of the Lost Horcrux" at:
>
> http://www.redhen-publications.com/Horcrux.html
hmm interesting how order to deduce the following:
"Everyone assumes that Voldemort used an AK, because the AK is "the
killing curse". But it is hardly the only curse that kills. It's
just the one that is known to be unblockable. A 15-month-old baby is
not going to be doing a lot of curse-blocking. Riddle could have used
any sort of spell to try to kill him. In fact, I think he used the
Horcrux-creation spell."
Lily's protection is conviently forgotten
> Here is a little excerpt:
>
> "I think that if you go back and reread Slughorn=B9s memory carefully, you
> will not find anything in that (extremely dithery) account to absolutely
> contradict the possibility that =B3the spell=B2 to create the Horcrux IS =
the
> spell which actually splits the caster=B9s soul =8B by killing someone =
=8B and
> also moves the resulting fragment into it's external housing, all in one
> smooth process."
twaddle. Slughorn says "Killing rips the soul"
--
Jane Grey
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243796 ] |
Fr, 31 März 2006 17:29 |
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Jane Grey wrote:
> Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> > In article <1143749845.620836.282380 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Ja=
ne
> > Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >Aaron wrote:
> > >> Jane Grey wrote:
> <anip>
> > >> The one you didn't have time to do because you were too busy being h=
it
> > >> with AK from your own wand?
> > >>
> > >> *sigh*
> > >
> > >In GoF before Voldemort started duelling harry he asked harry to bow,
> > >harry would not so Voldemort shouted 'bow!' and harry felt himself
> > >doing it. obviuosly Voldemort had wordlessly casted a spell which
> > >caused harry's spine to curve. if a wizard can do wordless spells, they
> > >must be able to cast spells as fast as they can think it. Voldemort is
> > >the most powerful dark wizard so surely he would have had no trouble
> > >starting another spell in the fraction oftime it took for the AK spell
> > >to rebound?
Surely he would not have done so, even if he would have had no trouble
doing so. It makes no sense, Jane.
Think about it: if Voldemort could cast spells that quickly, why would
he not start doing so at Harry at the end of GOF, or DD at the end of
OOTP, sending a hailstorm of spells out in immediate succession.
It can't be done, Jane. It didn't happen that way. Keep trying, by all
means, but accept defeat when you meet it.
> > Jane, your scratchy old record is skipping again.
It's actually getting annoying, too. Spells travel at phenomenal
speeds, and somehow he can think through and start to cast at least one
more spell (remember, we have no idea how to make a horcrux) in the
time it takes one to travel just a few feet round-trip!
> Playing the devil's
> > advocate, I think I have found something that might interest you called
> > "Raiders of the Lost Horcrux" at:
> >
> > http://www.redhen-publications.com/Horcrux.html
>
> hmm interesting how order to deduce the following:
>
> "Everyone assumes that Voldemort used an AK, because the AK is "the
> killing curse". But it is hardly the only curse that kills. It's
> just the one that is known to be unblockable. A 15-month-old baby is
> not going to be doing a lot of curse-blocking. Riddle could have used
> any sort of spell to try to kill him. In fact, I think he used the
> Horcrux-creation spell."
The fact that you, fantastically, think the Horcrux creation spell is a
killing spell as well shows just how little we really know about the
spell.
Furthermore, we know that it was the AK curse. Numerous wizards have
said so. V himself has said so. V wouldn't take a risk with the
prophecied one that would defeat him. He would use the unblockable AK
curse, and nothing else.
>
> Lily's protection is conviently forgotten
>
> > Here is a little excerpt:
> >
> > "I think that if you go back and reread Slughorn=B9s memory carefully, =
you
> > will not find anything in that (extremely dithery) account to absolutely
> > contradict the possibility that =B3the spell=B2 to create the Horcrux I=
S the
> > spell which actually splits the caster=B9s soul =8B by killing someone =
=8B and
> > also moves the resulting fragment into it's external housing, all in one
> > smooth process."
>
> twaddle. Slughorn says "Killing rips the soul"
So, again, are you actually saying that he didn't use AK on Harry?
> Jane Grey
-Aaron
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243808 ] |
Fr, 31 März 2006 21:01 |
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Aaron wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
> > Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> > > In article <1143749845.620836.282380 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "=
Jane
> > > Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Aaron wrote:
> > > >> Jane Grey wrote:
> > <anip>
> > > >> The one you didn't have time to do because you were too busy being=
hit
> > > >> with AK from your own wand?
> > > >>
> > > >> *sigh*
> > > >
> > > >In GoF before Voldemort started duelling harry he asked harry to bow,
> > > >harry would not so Voldemort shouted 'bow!' and harry felt himself
> > > >doing it. obviuosly Voldemort had wordlessly casted a spell which
> > > >caused harry's spine to curve. if a wizard can do wordless spells, t=
hey
> > > >must be able to cast spells as fast as they can think it. Voldemort =
is
> > > >the most powerful dark wizard so surely he would have had no trouble
> > > >starting another spell in the fraction oftime it took for the AK spe=
ll
> > > >to rebound?
>
> Surely he would not have done so, even if he would have had no trouble
> doing so. It makes no sense, Jane.
we don't know he wouldn't, there could be a member of reasons why he
might have done that that night. but ultimately he was in a hurry.
> Think about it: if Voldemort could cast spells that quickly, why would
> he not start doing so at Harry at the end of GOF,
cos he was taunting harry and taking his time
> or DD at the end of
> OOTP, sending a hailstorm of spells out in immediate succession.
LV has got to decide what to do before casting the spell in fights,
and he's got to watch out for counter spells whereas the night harry's
parents died he already knew he was going to do the horcrux creating
spell right after the AK so he was ready for it. unfortunately, for
him, just as it was about to leave his wand, the AK rebounded upon him.
> It can't be done, Jane. It didn't happen that way. Keep trying, by all
well that's an opinion
> means, but accept defeat when you meet it.
if book7 contradicts the theory it's hardly 'defeat', i'll have no
problem with it if JKR never planned for harry to be a horcrux as i am
by no means convinced of it. but i do think harry has aquired LV's
soulbit somehow, whether he is a horcrux or not.
> > > Jane, your scratchy old record is skipping again.
>
> It's actually getting annoying, too. Spells travel at phenomenal
> speeds, and somehow he can think through and start to cast at least one
> more spell (remember, we have no idea how to make a horcrux) in the
> time it takes one to travel just a few feet round-trip!
he didn't have to think thru, he already knew he was going to do it.
also do you actually think that saying wingardium leviosa doesn't take
longer than thinking it?
> > Playing the devil's
> > > advocate, I think I have found something that might interest you call=
ed
> > > "Raiders of the Lost Horcrux" at:
> > >
> > > http://www.redhen-publications.com/Horcrux.html
> >
> > hmm interesting how order to deduce the following:
> >
> > "Everyone assumes that Voldemort used an AK, because the AK is "the
> > killing curse". But it is hardly the only curse that kills. It's
> > just the one that is known to be unblockable. A 15-month-old baby is
> > not going to be doing a lot of curse-blocking. Riddle could have used
> > any sort of spell to try to kill him. In fact, I think he used the
> > Horcrux-creation spell."
>
> The fact that you, fantastically, think the Horcrux creation spell is a
> killing spell as well shows just how little we really know about the
> spell.
no it just shows some people don't pay attention to canon.
> Furthermore, we know that it was the AK curse. Numerous wizards have
> said so. V himself has said so. V wouldn't take a risk with the
> prophecied one that would defeat him. He would use the unblockable AK
> curse, and nothing else.
yes, agreed.
> > Lily's protection is conviently forgotten
> >
> > > Here is a little excerpt:
> > >
> > > "I think that if you go back and reread Slughorn=B9s memory carefully=
, you
> > > will not find anything in that (extremely dithery) account to absolut=
ely
> > > contradict the possibility that =B3the spell=B2 to create the Horcrux=
IS the
> > > spell which actually splits the caster=B9s soul =8B by killing someon=
e =8B and
> > > also moves the resulting fragment into it's external housing, all in =
one
> > > smooth process."
> >
> > twaddle. Slughorn says "Killing rips the soul"
>
> So, again, are you actually saying that he didn't use AK on Harry?
:S huh? i think you need to re-read my post.
---
Jane Grey
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243809 ] |
Fr, 31 März 2006 21:07 |
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Toon wrote:
<snip>
> >In GoF before Voldemort started duelling harry he asked harry to bow,
> >harry would not so Voldemort shouted 'bow!' and harry felt himself
> >doing it. obviuosly Voldemort had wordlessly casted a spell which
> >caused harry's spine to curve. if a wizard can do wordless spells, they
> >must be able to cast spells as fast as they can think it. Voldemort is
> >the most powerful dark wizard so surely he would have had no trouble
> >starting another spell in the fraction oftime it took for the AK spell
> >to rebound?
> >
> >Jane Grey
>
> Thta's why it makes better sense that it didn't rebound, it got
> absorbed into Lily's protection, and the Horcrux spell inadvertently
> released it.
hmm, interesting and original idea and it would make sense but i have
my doubts for the following reasons:
-if a spell got absorbed, i would imagine that the spell's engery would
dissipate rather then staying tangibly together as a spell. i mean is
it possible to trap spells? i wouldn't have thought so
-it doesn't seem natural that the horcrux creating spell would cause a
trapped AK to be released
> or someone arrived and Voldeie made an error rushing
> through it.
yeah, all it needs is a reason for Voldie to do those two spells in
quick sucession, that reason could have to do with the alleged other
person there that ngiht.
--
Jane Grey
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243810 ] |
Fr, 31 März 2006 21:11 |
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Zolak of Twylo wrote:
<snip>
> My thought. When LV AKd Baby Harry. Wouldn't it have rebounded so quickly
> that he wouldn't have had time to begin the horcrux spell? From what
> we've seen,
> the AK spell is pretty quick. Seems to me that the rebound would be
> just as quick.
AK is decribed as 'roaring past' or 'blazing across' -so it's not so
quick that you can't see/hear it go.
--
Jane Grey
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243815 ] |
Fr, 31 März 2006 22:06 |
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Jane Grey wrote:
> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> <snip>
> > My thought. When LV AKd Baby Harry. Wouldn't it have rebounded so quickly
> > that he wouldn't have had time to begin the horcrux spell? From what
> > we've seen,
> > the AK spell is pretty quick. Seems to me that the rebound would be
> > just as quick.
>
> AK is decribed as 'roaring past' or 'blazing across' -so it's not so
> quick that you can't see/hear it go.
Oh, please.
You can hear a bolt of lightning, and that travels roughly the speed of
light. I would certainly use phrases like "roaring past" and "blazing
across" when describing a lightning bolt arcing between clouds or to
the ground. Therefore, such phrases don't imply the sort of low-speed
spell flight that you are determined to postulate, and upon which your
theories rely.
> Jane Grey
-Aaron
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243816 ] |
Fr, 31 März 2006 22:12 |
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Jane Grey wrote:
> > > > >In GoF before Voldemort started duelling harry he asked harry to bow,
> > > > >harry would not so Voldemort shouted 'bow!' and harry felt himself
> > > > >doing it. obviuosly Voldemort had wordlessly casted a spell which
> > > > >caused harry's spine to curve. if a wizard can do wordless spells, they
> > > > >must be able to cast spells as fast as they can think it. Voldemort is
> > > > >the most powerful dark wizard so surely he would have had no trouble
> > > > >starting another spell in the fraction oftime it took for the AK spell
> > > > >to rebound?
> >
> > Surely he would not have done so, even if he would have had no trouble
> > doing so. It makes no sense, Jane.
>
> we don't know he wouldn't, there could be a member of reasons why he
> might have done that that night. but ultimately he was in a hurry.
And there are many stronger reasons why he would want to relish it,
just as he was trying to do in GOF. He could spare a few seconds, rush
or no rush. This is his time to kill the prophecied one, and make a
horcrux at the same time (if you are correct). He's not just trying to
catch the 8:08 am train into NYC.
> > Think about it: if Voldemort could cast spells that quickly, why would
> > he not start doing so at Harry at the end of GOF,
>
> cos he was taunting harry and taking his time
When Harry started running and hiding, he blasted away a couple of
times in anger.
> > or DD at the end of
> > OOTP, sending a hailstorm of spells out in immediate succession.
>
> LV has got to decide what to do before casting the spell in fights,
> and he's got to watch out for counter spells whereas the night harry's
> parents died he already knew he was going to do the horcrux creating
> spell right after the AK so he was ready for it. unfortunately, for
> him, just as it was about to leave his wand, the AK rebounded upon him.
No, it didn't. However, I'll accept your explanation on why he didn't
demonstrate this ability in the fight.
Still, consider if he could unleash AK after AK at DD, I think he would
have done so.
> > It can't be done, Jane. It didn't happen that way. Keep trying, by all
>
> well that's an opinion
And it's based on good logic and evidence from the books. Literal
interpretation ("a part of himself in you") does not always qualify as
good logic, by the way.
> > means, but accept defeat when you meet it.
>
> if book7 contradicts the theory it's hardly 'defeat', i'll have no
> problem with it if JKR never planned for harry to be a horcrux as i am
> by no means convinced of it. but i do think harry has aquired LV's
> soulbit somehow, whether he is a horcrux or not.
So will it be a defeat if Harry didn't have a soul bit in him? You seem
to be saying you are not defeated whether you are right or wrong.
If the stance means so little to you, why bring it up over and over
again?
> > It's actually getting annoying, too. Spells travel at phenomenal
> > speeds, and somehow he can think through and start to cast at least one
> > more spell (remember, we have no idea how to make a horcrux) in the
> > time it takes one to travel just a few feet round-trip!
>
> he didn't have to think thru, he already knew he was going to do it.
> also do you actually think that saying wingardium leviosa doesn't take
> longer than thinking it?
Do you actually think that creating a horcrux is as easy as wingardium
leviosa?
Now, consider the wand movements required there. They take some time,
right? The Horcrux spell is also probably a charm. So, again, wand
movements, and time are required.
It doesn't work, Jane.
> > So, again, are you actually saying that he didn't use AK on Harry?
>
> :S huh? i think you need to re-read my post.
Just checking. The way you quoted material was a bit confusing.
> Jane Grey
-Aaron
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243818 ] |
Fr, 31 März 2006 22:50 |
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In <1143832278.204316.27340 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> writes:
>Zolak of Twylo wrote:
><snip>
>> My thought. When LV AKd Baby Harry. Wouldn't it have rebounded so quickly
>> that he wouldn't have had time to begin the horcrux spell? From what
>> we've seen,
>> the AK spell is pretty quick. Seems to me that the rebound would be
>> just as quick.
>AK is decribed as 'roaring past' or 'blazing across' -so it's not so
>quick that you can't see/hear it go.
But it is quick enough that you have to _dodge_ (as opposed to
stepping quietly out of the way) at moderate ranges. So it almost
certainly travels a few tens of feet in no more than a couple of
seconds. That means tenths of a second at arm's length - close
to normal "reaction time", so, almost by definition, faster than
you can think.
--
Remove any bits of tatt after the at in my address to reply
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243821 ] |
Fr, 31 März 2006 23:19 |
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Jane Grey wrote:
> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> <snip>
> > My thought. When LV AKd Baby Harry. Wouldn't it have rebounded so quickly
> > that he wouldn't have had time to begin the horcrux spell? From what
> > we've seen,
> > the AK spell is pretty quick. Seems to me that the rebound would be
> > just as quick.
>
> AK is decribed as 'roaring past' or 'blazing across' -so it's not so
> quick that you can't see/hear it go.
>
> --
> Jane Grey
The "killing rips the soul" quote by Slughorn could also be taken
metaphorically. For example, it could mean that it destroys the
goodness in a person.The more frequently a wizard/witch murders, the
more he/she destroys the part of themself that is pure and virtuous.
There's also a difference between "killing" and "murdering". If a
person kills in self-defense (in the Potterverse), would that type of
"killing" split the soul the same as a cold-blooded murder?
My own feeling is that the horcrux spell has to be done after the
killing and that it's probably an extremely complicated spell.
Otherwise, you'd have nefarious wizards all over creating horcruxes for
themselves! When the AK rebounded, I don't feel that there was any time
for LV to begin the spell. It's one thing if he remembered about the
ancient magic protection. Perhaps there might have been a way for him
to protect against the rebounded AK. He didn't, however. He admits
that he forgot about it. He went to Godric's Hollow fully expecting to
kill Harry with the AK and create his horcrux. The "uncertainty
principle" (if you will) arises with: 1. No one ever survived the AK
before 2. No one ever attempted the AK before and had it fail 3. The AK
never rebounded on the wizard who cast it before, and 4. The wizard
upon whom all this happened was the most powerful evil wizard for
hundreds of years. IMO, if items 1-3 occurred with any other wizard, I
would say that definitely there would not have been even an accidental
horcrux. I'm not totally discounting the "accidental soul-bit/ horcrux"
theory simply because it WAS Voldemort (and when it comes to him, all
bets are off!). However, IMO, I still don't think it happened. Another
variable is that while we can be reasonably certain that the AK kills
immediately after the words are said, we don't have any information as
to the length of time it takes for the rebounding effect (perhaps it IS
slightly slower) because it never happened before, and Jo hasn't
written anything about it.
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243826 ] |
Sa, 01 April 2006 02:16 |
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Green-Eyed Chris wrote:
> In article <1143749845.620836.282380 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Jane
> Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Aaron wrote:
>>
>>>Jane Grey wrote:
>>>
>>>>tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>Harry's not a Horcrux. You can't accidentally make a horcrux.
>>>>
>>>>you can if the spell accidentally hit a target other than the one you
>>>>intended when you did the horcrux creating spell
>>>
>>>The one you didn't have time to do because you were too busy being hit
>>>with AK from your own wand?
>>>
>>>*sigh*
>>
>>In GoF before Voldemort started duelling harry he asked harry to bow,
>>harry would not so Voldemort shouted 'bow!' and harry felt himself
>>doing it. obviuosly Voldemort had wordlessly casted a spell which
>>caused harry's spine to curve. if a wizard can do wordless spells, they
>>must be able to cast spells as fast as they can think it. Voldemort is
>>the most powerful dark wizard so surely he would have had no trouble
>>starting another spell in the fraction oftime it took for the AK spell
>>to rebound?
>
>
> Jane, your scratchy old record is skipping again.
Even though I think she's dead wrong, I understand feeling obligated to
continue to support a minority opinion you hold, especially in the
president of the Harry is a Horcrux club...and truly new arguments would
need something new to rebut.
This, though...
> Playing the devil's
> advocate, I think I have found something that might interest you called
> "Raiders of the Lost Horcrux" at:
>
> http://www.redhen-publications.com/Horcrux.html
>
> Here is a little excerpt:
>
> "I think that if you go back and reread Slughorn¹s memory carefully, you
> will not find anything in that (extremely dithery) account to absolutely
> contradict the possibility that ³the spell² to create the Horcrux IS the
> spell which actually splits the caster¹s soul ‹ by killing someone ‹ and
> also moves the resulting fragment into it's external housing, all in one
> smooth process."
Which spell just coincidentally produces a flash of green like just like
Avada Kedavra and leaves Harry with a quite unearned--albeit never yet
contradicted--reputation as the sole survivor of Avada Kedavra? I hope
Jane doesn't incorporate these ideas into her theory.
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243828 ] |
Sa, 01 April 2006 02:30 |
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Jane Grey wrote:
>>http://www.redhen-publications.com/Horcrux.html
>
>
> hmm interesting how order to deduce the following:
>
> "Everyone assumes that Voldemort used an AK, because the AK is "the
> killing curse". But it is hardly the only curse that kills. It's
> just the one that is known to be unblockable. A 15-month-old baby is
> not going to be doing a lot of curse-blocking. Riddle could have used
> any sort of spell to try to kill him. In fact, I think he used the
> Horcrux-creation spell."
>
> Lily's protection is conviently forgotten
>
>
>>Here is a little excerpt:
>>
>>"I think that if you go back and reread Slughorn¹s memory carefully, you
>>will not find anything in that (extremely dithery) account to absolutely
>>contradict the possibility that ³the spell² to create the Horcrux IS the
>>spell which actually splits the caster¹s soul ‹ by killing someone ‹ and
>>also moves the resulting fragment into it's external housing, all in one
>>smooth process."
>
>
> twaddle. Slughorn says "Killing rips the soul"
Good, I'm glad you're paying enough attention that this won't be
incorporated into your theory. :-p
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243864 ] |
Sa, 01 April 2006 11:24 |
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On 31 Mar 2006 06:32:16 -0800, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
>
>"Everyone assumes that Voldemort used an AK, because the AK is "the
>killing curse". But it is hardly the only curse that kills. It's
>just the one that is known to be unblockable. A 15-month-old baby is
>not going to be doing a lot of curse-blocking. Riddle could have used
>any sort of spell to try to kill him. In fact, I think he used the
>Horcrux-creation spell."
now, this could work, as long as it produces a green light exactly the
same as AK. NOw, could Lily's protection prevent the turning of
someone living into a horcrux?
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243866 ] |
Sa, 01 April 2006 11:27 |
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On 31 Mar 2006 11:07:19 -0800, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
>-if a spell got absorbed, i would imagine that the spell's engery would
>dissipate rather then staying tangibly together as a spell. i mean is
>it possible to trap spells? i wouldn't have thought so
>-it doesn't seem natural that the horcrux creating spell would cause a
>trapped AK to be released
Well we don't know what happens in these situations, as they don't
occur.usually. perhaps the AK spun around Harry, while V, thinking he
obviously killed the kid, ready his item, then casts the spell, just
in time to notice the AK didn't work.
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243869 ] |
Sa, 01 April 2006 11:58 |
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"Aaron" <aaronsan [at] msn.com> wrote in article
<1143835564.439202.190720 [at] t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>:
> Jane Grey wrote:
>> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
>>> When LV AKd Baby Harry. Wouldn't it have rebounded so quickly that he
>>> wouldn't have had time to begin the horcrux spell? From what we've
>>> seen, the AK spell is pretty quick. Seems to me that the rebound would
>>> be just as quick.
>> AK is decribed as 'roaring past' or 'blazing across' -so it's not so
>> quick that you can't see/hear it go.
> Oh, please.
> You can hear a bolt of lightning, and that travels roughly the speed of
> light.
No it don't, nothing like the speed of light. If you watch a storm from
a distance, you can actually see the bolts jig-jagging across the sky.
Ginevra
--
"Nice commentary last match!" said Ron. "You're making fun of
me, aren't you?" Luna replied, "everyone says I was dreadful."
-- "Half-Blood Prince", chapter 20
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243886 ] |
Sa, 01 April 2006 17:31 |
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Aaron wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
> > > > > >In GoF before Voldemort started duelling harry he asked harry to bow,
> > > > > >harry would not so Voldemort shouted 'bow!' and harry felt himself
> > > > > >doing it. obviuosly Voldemort had wordlessly casted a spell which
> > > > > >caused harry's spine to curve. if a wizard can do wordless spells, they
> > > > > >must be able to cast spells as fast as they can think it. Voldemort is
> > > > > >the most powerful dark wizard so surely he would have had no trouble
> > > > > >starting another spell in the fraction oftime it took for the AK spell
> > > > > >to rebound?
> > >
> > > Surely he would not have done so, even if he would have had no trouble
> > > doing so. It makes no sense, Jane.
> >
> > we don't know he wouldn't, there could be a member of reasons why he
> > might have done that that night. but ultimately he was in a hurry.
>
> And there are many stronger reasons why he would want to relish it,
> just as he was trying to do in GOF.
i don't deny it.
> He could spare a few seconds, rush
> or no rush.
or maybe he couldn't, book 7 will tell
> This is his time to kill the prophecied one, and make a
> horcrux at the same time (if you are correct). He's not just trying to
> catch the 8:08 am train into NYC.
well, yes.
> > > Think about it: if Voldemort could cast spells that quickly, why would
> > > he not start doing so at Harry at the end of GOF,
> >
> > cos he was taunting harry and taking his time
>
> When Harry started running and hiding, he blasted away a couple of
> times in anger.
and anger hinders thinking clearly
> > > or DD at the end of
> > > OOTP, sending a hailstorm of spells out in immediate succession.
> >
> > LV has got to decide what to do before casting the spell in fights,
> > and he's got to watch out for counter spells whereas the night harry's
> > parents died he already knew he was going to do the horcrux creating
> > spell right after the AK so he was ready for it. unfortunately, for
> > him, just as it was about to leave his wand, the AK rebounded upon him.
>
> No, it didn't.
well, that's the theory
> However, I'll accept your explanation on why he didn't
> demonstrate this ability in the fight.
:)
> Still, consider if he could unleash AK after AK at DD, I think he would
> have done so.
it's not that simple though because if DD avoided the 1st then DD would
be in another postion and Voldemort would have to re-aim if he hopes to
try and get DD with the second one.
> > > It can't be done, Jane. It didn't happen that way. Keep trying, by all
> >
> > well that's an opinion
>
> And it's based on good logic and evidence from the books. Literal
> interpretation ("a part of himself in you") does not always qualify as
> good logic, by the way.
but the rebounding /killing/ curse causing a mentel link and a power
transferal is?
you have to wonder why JKR had harry rephrase DD's 'he transferred some
of his own powers to you' to 'Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?' -i
mean, to me that's not necessarily a logical rephrase. so maybe it's
because harry, being a wizard, instinctively knew that powers aren't a
tangible thing in themselves.
> > > means, but accept defeat when you meet it.
> >
> > if book7 contradicts the theory it's hardly 'defeat', i'll have no
> > problem with it if JKR never planned for harry to be a horcrux as i am
> > by no means convinced of it. but i do think harry has aquired LV's
> > soulbit somehow, whether he is a horcrux or not.
>
> So will it be a defeat if Harry didn't have a soul bit in him? You seem
> to be saying you are not defeated whether you are right or wrong.
well i hardly concider it a defeat just because a theory is shown to be
wrong.
> If the stance means so little to you, why bring it up over and over
> again?
i was just saying i have more faith in the harry has LV's soulbit
theory than the harry is a horcrux. and i only bring it up when it
seems there are knew people who don't know it, is all. it's good to get
new input into the theory.
> > > It's actually getting annoying, too. Spells travel at phenomenal
> > > speeds, and somehow he can think through and start to cast at least one
> > > more spell (remember, we have no idea how to make a horcrux) in the
> > > time it takes one to travel just a few feet round-trip!
> >
> > he didn't have to think thru, he already knew he was going to do it.
> > also do you actually think that saying wingardium leviosa doesn't take
> > longer than thinking it?
>
> Do you actually think that creating a horcrux is as easy as wingardium
> leviosa?
a spell could be hard to master, but once mastered it could be as easy
to cast as wingardium leviosa
> Now, consider the wand movements required there. They take some time,
> right? The Horcrux spell is also probably a charm. So, again, wand
> movements, and time are required.
well the theory does reckon LV didn't quite have time to get the spell
out before his AK rebounded upon him...
> It doesn't work, Jane.
well i'm not so sure... everytime i think nah, harry isn't a horcrux,
there's just this little voice at the back that goes 'he prolly is, he
prolly is -how else can the harry-LV connection be explained?'
at the end of the day, the chain of events I put forward is only my
best guess about how harry could have accidentally ended up a horcrux,
if those chain of events don't work, it doesn't mean that harry
couldn't've have ended up a horcrux by some other means. Toon has come
out with some very interesting ideas, for example.
> > > So, again, are you actually saying that he didn't use AK on Harry?
> >
> > :S huh? i think you need to re-read my post.
>
> Just checking. The way you quoted material was a bit confusing.
and i typed 'order' when i meant to type 'in-order'
---
Jane Grey
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243887 ] |
Sa, 01 April 2006 17:38 |
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Ginevra M. Longbottom wrote:
> "Aaron" <aaronsan [at] msn.com> wrote in article
> <1143835564.439202.190720 [at] t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>:
>
> > Jane Grey wrote:
>
> >> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
>
> >>> When LV AKd Baby Harry. Wouldn't it have rebounded so quickly that he
> >>> wouldn't have had time to begin the horcrux spell? From what we've
> >>> seen, the AK spell is pretty quick. Seems to me that the rebound would
> >>> be just as quick.
>
> >> AK is decribed as 'roaring past' or 'blazing across' -so it's not so
> >> quick that you can't see/hear it go.
>
> > Oh, please.
>
> > You can hear a bolt of lightning, and that travels roughly the speed of
> > light.
>
> No it don't, nothing like the speed of light.
yeah, charged electrons go slower than light.
> If you watch a storm from
> a distance, you can actually see the bolts jig-jagging across the sky.
wow, really? i've not ever seen ligthning, only heard the thunder after
a flash of light.
--
Jane Grey
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| Re: Why I think Harry is not a Horcrux [message #243888 ] |
Sa, 01 April 2006 17:42 |
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Phil Turner wrote:
> In <1143832278.204316.27340 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> writes:
>
> >Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> My thought. When LV AKd Baby Harry. Wouldn't it have rebounded so quickly
> >> that he wouldn't have had time to begin the horcrux spell? From what
> >> we've seen,
> >> the AK spell is pretty quick. Seems to me that the rebound would be
> >> just as quick.
>
> >AK is decribed as 'roaring past' or 'blazing across' -so it's not so
> >quick that you can't see/hear it go.
>
> But it is quick enough that you have to _dodge_ (as opposed to
> stepping quietly out of the way) at moderate ranges. So it almost
> certainly travels a few tens of feet in no more than a couple of
> seconds. That means tenths of a second at arm's length - close
> to normal "reaction time", so, almost by definition, faster than
> you can think.
in GoF harry dodged a Crucio ["Perhaps another little dose of pain?"
Voldemort raised his wand, but this time Harry was ready; with the
reflexes born of his Quidditch training, he flung himself sideways onto
the ground; he rolled behind the marble headstone of Voldemort s
father, and he heard it crack as the curse missed him. ] because he was
ready for it. So i don't see why LV can't have started another spell
before that AK rebounded back at him, if he was ready to cast it right
after casting the AK.
--
Jane Grey
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