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Music / Musik » alt.fan.frank-zappa » Vinnie
Vinnie [message #232246] Mo, 06 März 2006 11:31
ms  
Ok, so Vinnie quit the band in april 1979, and returned in october 1980. Was
he required to audition again, or did Frank just re-hire him? Did he
rehearse with the rest of the band the songs again? Did Frank make new
arrangements of the songs after David L, or did they play the "original"
1978 versions, so are there huge differences between 78 vs 80 versions of
songs (with Vinnie)?

What did Vinnie do during apr 1979 - oct 1980, since there is a 1,5 year gap
there? Any studio work, or live gigs?
Re: Vinnie [message #232250 ] Mo, 06 März 2006 15:27
pbuzby2002  
MS wrote:
> Ok, so Vinnie quit the band in april 1979, and returned in october 1980. Was
> he required to audition again, or did Frank just re-hire him? Did he
> rehearse with the rest of the band the songs again? Did Frank make new
> arrangements of the songs after David L, or did they play the "original"
> 1978 versions, so are there huge differences between 78 vs 80 versions of
> songs (with Vinnie)?
>
> What did Vinnie do during apr 1979 - oct 1980, since there is a 1,5 year gap
> there? Any studio work, or live gigs?

Vinnie didn't quit in April '79. They recorded Joe's Garage after the
79 tour, then the band was on hiatus for the rest of the year (as I
understand it) and FZ reconvened the band in early 80. Vinnie
rehearsed with the band in winter 80 and recorded the single/Lost
Episodes version of "I Don't Wanna Get Drafted," but then he got an
offer for studio work for more money than FZ was paying for the tour,
so he left.

During this time he recorded the album Nightwalker with Gino Vanelli
and an album by a Mr. Mister precursor band called Pages (although he
was fired from this project and only appears on one cut), and played
live with the fusion band Karizma, possibly among other things.

I'd be surprised if FZ made Vinnie reaudition, but he is on the
Sept/Oct 80 rehearsal tapes. Some of the songs changed during the
Logeman tour and the changes remained (for instance, the Santana vamp
was added to Tiny Lites).

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Re: Vinnie [message #232260 ] Di, 07 März 2006 07:56
ms  
Ok, thanks for all the info - I forgot "Joe's Garage" completely (I know,
I'm a bad space person)...

BTW, since some parts of "Joe" were taken from live, some from studio, has
it ever been discussed in detail exactly what parts come from where?
Re: Vinnie [message #232263 ] Di, 07 März 2006 15:24
pbuzby2002  
MS wrote:

> BTW, since some parts of "Joe" were taken from live, some from studio, has
> it ever been discussed in detail exactly what parts come from where?

Check this site:
http://www.globalia.net/donlope/fz/lyrics/Joe's_Garage.html

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Re: Vinnie [message #232264 ] Di, 07 März 2006 15:55
Bird  
dOn Mon, 6 Mar 2006 12:31:08 +0200, "MS"
<mikael.sillman [at] POISTA.okmetic.com> wrote:

>Ok, so Vinnie quit the band in april 1979, and returned in october 1980. Was
>he required to audition again, or did Frank just re-hire him? Did he
>rehearse with the rest of the band the songs again? Did Frank make new
>arrangements of the songs after David L, or did they play the "original"
>1978 versions, so are there huge differences between 78 vs 80 versions of
>songs (with Vinnie)?
>
>What did Vinnie do during apr 1979 - oct 1980, since there is a 1,5 year gap
>there? Any studio work, or live gigs?
>

I think Vinnie got in trouble, back in the day when - much like the
horn player in the 1988 band, who was a studio musician and wanted to
be paid like one while on Zappa's tour at huge musician's union level
wages and balked to tour at the last minute unless Zappa increased his
compensation - Vinnie at the last minute pulled the plug on his
participation in Zappa's band, unless Zappa (in a secret negotiation
tactic, unknown to other band members) unless he were giving a large
money increase.

Zappa refused and parted ways......

Correct me here, if I'm wrong, but in 1988 it was Kurt McGettrick
.........or Albert Wing.
Re: Vinnie [message #232265 ] Di, 07 März 2006 16:53
pbuzby2002  
Bird wrote:

> I think Vinnie got in trouble, back in the day when - much like the
> horn player in the 1988 band, who was a studio musician and wanted to
> be paid like one while on Zappa's tour at huge musician's union level
> wages and balked to tour at the last minute unless Zappa increased his
> compensation - Vinnie at the last minute pulled the plug on his
> participation in Zappa's band, unless Zappa (in a secret negotiation
> tactic, unknown to other band members) unless he were giving a large
> money increase.
>
> Zappa refused and parted ways......
>
> Correct me here, if I'm wrong, but in 1988 it was Kurt McGettrick
> ........or Albert Wing.

There were two incidents with Vinnie - the first in early '80
(mentioned above) where he got some higher-paying studio offers and FZ
couldn't/wouldn't match them, and the second a year later when he and
Jeff Berlin tried to get a higher rate than the others and FZ refused
(described in the Real FZ Book).

As far as '88, you might be thinking of an incident mentioned by Scott
Thunes on the newsgroup where Chad Wackerman refused to tour for the
wages FZ offered originally, and FZ ended up paying him and the other
returning rhythm section players more than the rest of the group.

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Re: Vinnie [message #232267 ] Di, 07 März 2006 21:48
Bird  
On 7 Mar 2006 07:53:50 -0800, pbuzby2002 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>FZ ended up paying him and the other
>returning rhythm section players more than the rest of the group.

Right.

I thought the pay rise was limited to 2 people.......I didn't know
Chad had been part of the group demanding more money, to increase them
to union-level, hourly wages.
Re: Vinnie [message #232268 ] Di, 07 März 2006 22:41
pbuzby2002  
Bird wrote:
> On 7 Mar 2006 07:53:50 -0800, pbuzby2002 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >FZ ended up paying him and the other
> >returning rhythm section players more than the rest of the group.
>
> Right.
>
> I thought the pay rise was limited to 2 people.......I didn't know
> Chad had been part of the group demanding more money, to increase them
> to union-level, hourly wages.

Here's the link to Scott's mention of the '88 wages (Either he
mentioned elsewhere that Chad demanded the raise or this was a memory
slip on my part - if the latter, sorry, Chad):

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.frank-zappa/browse_th read/thread/eb07bd233d6616b1/8c1484d431375f22?lnk=st&q=S cott+week+group%3Aalt.fan.frank-zappa&rnum=1&hl=en#8 c1484d431375f22

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Re: Vinnie [message #232271 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 00:46
Bird  
On 7 Mar 2006 13:41:39 -0800, pbuzby2002 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>
>Here's the link to Scott's mention of the '88 wages (Either he
>mentioned elsewhere that Chad demanded the raise or this was a memory
>slip on my part - if the latter, sorry, Chad):

Pat-

That was a dastardly deed you did, in accusing Chad Wackerman.........
Re: Vinnie [message #232279 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 04:22
mike macken  
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 09:55:00 -0500, Bird <Bird [at] rogers.com> wrote:

>dOn Mon, 6 Mar 2006 12:31:08 +0200, "MS"
><mikael.sillman [at] POISTA.okmetic.com> wrote:
>
>>Ok, so Vinnie quit the band in april 1979, and returned in october 1980. Was
>>he required to audition again, or did Frank just re-hire him? Did he
>>rehearse with the rest of the band the songs again? Did Frank make new
>>arrangements of the songs after David L, or did they play the "original"
>>1978 versions, so are there huge differences between 78 vs 80 versions of
>>songs (with Vinnie)?
>>
>>What did Vinnie do during apr 1979 - oct 1980, since there is a 1,5 year gap
>>there? Any studio work, or live gigs?
>>
>
>I think Vinnie got in trouble, back in the day when - much like the
>horn player in the 1988 band, who was a studio musician and wanted to
>be paid like one while on Zappa's tour at huge musician's union level
>wages and balked to tour at the last minute unless Zappa increased his
>compensation - Vinnie at the last minute pulled the plug on his
>participation in Zappa's band, unless Zappa (in a secret negotiation
>tactic, unknown to other band members) unless he were giving a large
>money increase.
>
>Zappa refused and parted ways......
>

sounds like Frank was a tight ass LOL
On the other hand he was NOT MAKING stones kinda money
and i think he knew there were several people willing to play for him
at modest fees just for the experience and/or knowledge that it would
inpact their future in a favorable way.......I mean Frank Zappa Alumni
went a REAL REAL Long way on a resume.
Re: Vinnie [message #232280 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 04:27
mike macken  
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 03:22:30 GMT, mike macken <tilson [at] mindspring.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 09:55:00 -0500, Bird <Bird [at] rogers.com> wrote:
>
>>dOn Mon, 6 Mar 2006 12:31:08 +0200, "MS"
>><mikael.sillman [at] POISTA.okmetic.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Ok, so Vinnie quit the band in april 1979, and returned in october 1980. Was
>>>he required to audition again, or did Frank just re-hire him? Did he
>>>rehearse with the rest of the band the songs again? Did Frank make new
>>>arrangements of the songs after David L, or did they play the "original"
>>>1978 versions, so are there huge differences between 78 vs 80 versions of
>>>songs (with Vinnie)?
>>>
>>>What did Vinnie do during apr 1979 - oct 1980, since there is a 1,5 year gap
>>>there? Any studio work, or live gigs?
>>>
>>
>>I think Vinnie got in trouble, back in the day when - much like the
>>horn player in the 1988 band, who was a studio musician and wanted to
>>be paid like one while on Zappa's tour at huge musician's union level
>>wages and balked to tour at the last minute unless Zappa increased his
>>compensation - Vinnie at the last minute pulled the plug on his
>>participation in Zappa's band, unless Zappa (in a secret negotiation
>>tactic, unknown to other band members) unless he were giving a large
>>money increase.
>>
>>Zappa refused and parted ways......
>>
>
>sounds like Frank was a tight ass LOL
>On the other hand he was NOT MAKING stones kinda money
>and i think he knew there were several people willing to play for him
>at modest fees just for the experience and/or knowledge that it would
>inpact their future in a favorable way.......I mean Frank Zappa Alumni
>went a REAL REAL Long way on a resume.

I mean quite realistically the Zappa Band was widely regarded as the
Harvard or MIT of music.
Re: Vinnie [message #232282 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 06:37
Bird  
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 03:27:58 GMT, mike macken <tilson [at] mindspring.com>
wrote:

>
>I mean quite realistically the Zappa Band was widely regarded as the
>Harvard or MIT of music.

Or the Berklee School of Music......www.berklee.edu/
Re: Vinnie [message #232294 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 18:57
Strictly Commercial  
Bird wrote:
>>I mean quite realistically the Zappa Band was widely regarded as the
>>Harvard or MIT of music.
>
> Or the Berklee School of Music......www.berklee.edu/

The musicians that Zappa hired weren't students, they were
professionals. "Great experience ... looks fantastic on your resume ...
will open doors ... " We all know what that means: $6.25/hr.

Rolf
Re: Vinnie [message #232296 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 22:57
Steve Brooks  
Strictly Commercial wrote:
> Bird wrote:

>>> I mean quite realistically the Zappa Band was widely regarded as the
>>> Harvard or MIT of music.
>>
>> Or the Berklee School of Music......www.berklee.edu/
>
> The musicians that Zappa hired weren't students, they were
> professionals. "Great experience ... looks fantastic on your resume
> ... will open doors ... " We all know what that means: $6.25/hr.

But seriously - do we know how what Frank paid his band members compared to
the rates paid by others for similar gigs? By similar I mean skilled
professionals but playing someone else's music in someone else's band.

I'm surprised by the statement - upthread - that Vinnie could make more
doing studio sessions. I would have thought touring should pay more given
the discomfort, unsociable hours and long periods away from home. And the
fact it can make you crazy.

But then I know next to nothing about the economics of the music biz - then
or now. And I can't help suspecting Frank may have done certain things on a
shoe-string at times so there was more money left to pump into his 'serious'
music projects.

--

SB
Re: Vinnie [message #232297 ] Do, 09 März 2006 00:59
tumbao  
Steve Brooks wrote:

> I'm surprised by the statement - upthread - that Vinnie could make more
> doing studio sessions. I would have thought touring should pay more given
> the discomfort, unsociable hours and long periods away from home. And the
> fact it can make you crazy.

An in-demand studio musician might do 3 fully paid 3 hour sessions in a
day, including such things as jingles (commercials) and soundtracks,
where your resume means nothing and your level of reading perfection
means everything. If he's REALLY good (meaning perfect and FAST to
finish), he might make double or triple union scale, because he's worth
it in the long run. Then he gets to sleep in his own bed and do it all
again tomorrow. They make serious coin. I know I'd rather tour with
Frank, but I can see the attraction.

Allan
Re: Vinnie [message #232298 ] Do, 09 März 2006 01:11
tumbao  
tumbao wrote:
> An in-demand studio musician might do 3 fully paid 3 hour sessions in a
> day,

I don't know what scale is in the US, but I did a session up here last
year (for the "Scarface" XBOX game coming out next year) that took just
over an hour. The sidemen all made a couple of hundred bucks. So mutiply
that by however many sessions per day, and by single, double, or triple
scale...you get the picture.

Allan
Re: Vinnie [message #232300 ] Do, 09 März 2006 04:06
pbuzby2002  
Steve Brooks wrote:

> But seriously - do we know how what Frank paid his band members compared to
> the rates paid by others for similar gigs? By similar I mean skilled
> professionals but playing someone else's music in someone else's band.

I believe Scott Thunes's comment was that FZ's pay rate for his
musicians was more at the level of a good jazz gig than a rock gig.

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Re: Vinnie [message #232301 ] Do, 09 März 2006 05:39
mike macken  
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 17:57:16 GMT, Strictly Commercial
<maurerrnot [at] telus.net> wrote:

>Bird wrote:
>>>I mean quite realistically the Zappa Band was widely regarded as the
>>>Harvard or MIT of music.
>>
>> Or the Berklee School of Music......www.berklee.edu/
>
>The musicians that Zappa hired weren't students, they were
>professionals. "Great experience ... looks fantastic on your resume ...
>will open doors ... " We all know what that means: $6.25/hr.
>
> Rolf

i don't know if you are being sarcastice but there is at least a fair
chance it would have taken guys like VAI, GEORGE DUKE, TERRY BOZZIO
very many more years teh it did to gain critcal acclaim if not for the
Zappa Band.

I mean a decent salary, probably all the girls you want, touring the
world and a big spring board for the future ain't such a bad thing.

You also have to remember that Frank did NOT appeal to the lowest
common denominator,,,,,,,did he do well ? Sure.....but he wasn't
making MEGA MONEY EITHER.
Re: Vinnie [message #232307 ] Do, 09 März 2006 13:19
Chris West  
In article <RqIPf.34179$Ru5.25246 [at] newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Steve Brooks
<steveb [at] postmaster.invalid> writes
>I'm surprised by the statement - upthread - that Vinnie could make more
>doing studio sessions. I would have thought touring should pay more given
>the discomfort, unsociable hours and long periods away from home. And the
>fact it can make you crazy.

The thing is, payment reflects the commercial value of what you do, it
doesn't reflect the inconvenience to you. If you play on a recording
session, your performance is going to be heard by many, many more people
than if you play a live concert. That's why it's worth more.
--
Chris West
Re: Vinnie [message #232308 ] Do, 09 März 2006 16:55
pbuzby2002  
Chris West wrote:
> In article <RqIPf.34179$Ru5.25246 [at] newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>, Steve Brooks
> <steveb [at] postmaster.invalid> writes
> >I'm surprised by the statement - upthread - that Vinnie could make more
> >doing studio sessions. I would have thought touring should pay more given
> >the discomfort, unsociable hours and long periods away from home. And the
> >fact it can make you crazy.
>
> The thing is, payment reflects the commercial value of what you do, it
> doesn't reflect the inconvenience to you. If you play on a recording
> session, your performance is going to be heard by many, many more people
> than if you play a live concert. That's why it's worth more.

Studio work and touring have different sets of perks and
inconveniences. Steve Brooks's comments about touring are valid, but,
on the other hand, you get to travel, with hotel and food bills
covered, and you are guaranteed employment for months. Also, touring
players usually get a period of rehearsal to get familiar with what
they will be doing before they go onstage. In most studio work, you
are handed the music as you walk in and expected to be ready to play a
perfect take within a few hours. If you get one session where you
can't do it, your career will have suffered serious damage. And you
have to put together a large enough list of contacts to be able to make
a living at it.

I imagine studio work can also make you crazy, although FZ didn't write
as many songs about it.

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Re: Vinnie [message #232309 ] Do, 09 März 2006 18:55
Steve Brooks  
pbuzby2002 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Steve Brooks wrote:
>
>> But seriously - do we know how what Frank paid his band members
>> compared to the rates paid by others for similar gigs? By similar I
>> mean skilled professionals but playing someone else's music in
>> someone else's band.
>
> I believe Scott Thunes's comment was that FZ's pay rate for his
> musicians was more at the level of a good jazz gig than a rock gig.

So jazz pays less than (not totally commercial) rock? Is there a strict
demarcation or is it just about audience size and ticket price? In those
terms I would have thought Frank's bands were in a pretty similar position
to a popular jazz act.

I suppose what I'm really wondering is - forgetting the honour/learning
experience/good on CV elements - did Frank treat his employees fairly by the
standards of the time?

Not that knowing either way would make the slightest difference to my
enjoyment of his music.

--

SB
Re: Vinnie [message #232311 ] Do, 09 März 2006 20:34
pbuzby2002  
Steve Brooks wrote:

> So jazz pays less than (not totally commercial) rock? Is there a strict
> demarcation or is it just about audience size and ticket price? In those
> terms I would have thought Frank's bands were in a pretty similar position
> to a popular jazz act.

This is what I'd say, too.

> I suppose what I'm really wondering is - forgetting the honour/learning
> experience/good on CV elements - did Frank treat his employees fairly by the
> standards of the time?

Most of his players had good things to say about him. Check the
Musicians Timeline or the posts in the newsgroup archives from Scott
Thunes, Ed Mann, Arthur Barrow or Mike Keneally.

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Re: Vinnie [message #232315 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 00:17
Les Cargill  
Steve Brooks wrote:

> Strictly Commercial wrote:
>
>>Bird wrote:
>
>
>>>>I mean quite realistically the Zappa Band was widely regarded as the
>>>>Harvard or MIT of music.
>>>
>>>Or the Berklee School of Music......www.berklee.edu/
>>
>>The musicians that Zappa hired weren't students, they were
>>professionals. "Great experience ... looks fantastic on your resume
>>... will open doors ... " We all know what that means: $6.25/hr.
>
>
> But seriously - do we know how what Frank paid his band members compared to
> the rates paid by others for similar gigs? By similar I mean skilled
> professionals but playing someone else's music in someone else's band.
>

Frank paid enough to where most could quit the day job.

> I'm surprised by the statement - upthread - that Vinnie could make more
> doing studio sessions. I would have thought touring should pay more given
> the discomfort, unsociable hours and long periods away from home. And the
> fact it can make you crazy.
>

At the time, studio work was very lucrative. Even back to Glen
Campbell, his claim is that the most money would had been to just
stay with studio work.

> But then I know next to nothing about the economics of the music biz - then
> or now. And I can't help suspecting Frank may have done certain things on a
> shoe-string at times so there was more money left to pump into his 'serious'
> music projects.
>

I think Frank took making payroll very seriously.

--
Les Cargill
Re: Vinnie [message #232324 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 16:39
mike macken  
On 8 Mar 2006 19:06:05 -0800, pbuzby2002 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>
>Steve Brooks wrote:
>
>> But seriously - do we know how what Frank paid his band members compared to
>> the rates paid by others for similar gigs? By similar I mean skilled
>> professionals but playing someone else's music in someone else's band.
>
>I believe Scott Thunes's comment was that FZ's pay rate for his
>musicians was more at the level of a good jazz gig than a rock gig.
>
>Pat Buzby
>Chicago, IL

well for a guy who felt that way it sure did stick around long enough.
And i think that is partly BS......i don't know too many jazz groups
would could consitently draw 5 to 8 thousand people a show and puncj
out 3 or 4 albums a year.
Re: Vinnie [message #232325 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 18:17
Steve Brooks  
mike macken wrote:
> pbuzby2002 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> Steve Brooks wrote:
>>
>>> But seriously - do we know how what Frank paid his band members
>>> compared to the rates paid by others for similar gigs? By similar
>>> I mean skilled professionals but playing someone else's music in
>>> someone else's band.
>>
>> I believe Scott Thunes's comment was that FZ's pay rate for his
>> musicians was more at the level of a good jazz gig than a rock gig.

> well for a guy who felt that way it sure did stick around long enough.
> And i think that is partly BS......i don't know too many jazz groups
> would could consitently draw 5 to 8 thousand people a show and puncj
> out 3 or 4 albums a year.

The 3-4 albums a year is certainly unusual. But did/do the band members[1]
get royalties on performances which were released on album? My understanding
is that studio session musicians get a straight fee. I'd have thought it
was the same for musicians in the position Frank's band members were in.
(And indeed people who performed on things like Dylan's 'Budokan' album).

[1] I mean the later bands where they were clearly the hired help. The
original Mothers would have been a different matter.

--

SB
Re: Vinnie [message #232326 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 18:18
Steve Brooks  
pbuzby2002 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Steve Brooks wrote:
>
>> So jazz pays less than (not totally commercial) rock? Is there a
>> strict demarcation or is it just about audience size and ticket
>> price? In those terms I would have thought Frank's bands were in a
>> pretty similar position to a popular jazz act.
>
> This is what I'd say, too.
>
>> I suppose what I'm really wondering is - forgetting the
>> honour/learning experience/good on CV elements - did Frank treat his
>> employees fairly by the standards of the time?
>
> Most of his players had good things to say about him. Check the
> Musicians Timeline or the posts in the newsgroup archives from Scott
> Thunes, Ed Mann, Arthur Barrow or Mike Keneally.

I've been around here long enough to remember both Ed Mann and Mike Keneally
posting here - and certainly neither of them were complaining.

--

SB
Re: Vinnie [message #232328 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 23:22
pbuzby2002  
Steve Brooks wrote:
> The 3-4 albums a year is certainly unusual. But did/do the band members[1]
> get royalties on performances which were released on album?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.frank-zappa/browse_th read/thread/81363f602efa45ab/8d79ff29ea521db3?lnk=st&q=B arrow+tours+truck+group%3Aalt.fan.frank-zappa&rnum=1& ;hl=en#8d79ff29ea521db3

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Re: Vinnie [message #232330 ] Sa, 11 März 2006 04:08
Mike Puterbaugh  
"Steve Brooks" <steveb [at] postmaster.invalid> wrote:
>> Most of his players had good things to say about him. Check the
>> Musicians Timeline or the posts in the newsgroup archives from
>> Scott Thunes, Ed Mann, Arthur Barrow or Mike Keneally.
>
> I've been around here long enough to remember both Ed Mann and
> Mike Keneally posting here - and certainly neither of them were
> complaining.

It's worth mentioning, though, that by the time of all the
abovementioned guys, Frank was infamous enough that he could hire only
guys who really wanted to play in his band, and might be willing to
accept conditions that other "more professional" sidemen might not
have.

Not suggesting that Frank took advantage of anybody, or that some
earlier bandmembers didn't enjoy their time in the band just as much.
Just that even in the music world, people who love their jobs generally
aren't as driven by money as those that don't.

-Mike
Re: Vinnie [message #232334 ] Sa, 11 März 2006 18:30
pbuzby2002  
Mike Puterbaugh wrote:

> It's worth mentioning, though, that by the time of all the
> abovementioned guys, Frank was infamous enough that he could hire only
> guys who really wanted to play in his band, and might be willing to
> accept conditions that other "more professional" sidemen might not
> have.

Some of the guys in the late 70's/80's bands (Cucurullo, Vai, Keneally)
were mega-fans who hadn't had any experience comparable to working with
FZ when they got hired. Others (Bobby Martin, Alan Zavod, the '88
horns) had been in the biz for a while and were more likely just
looking for a gig.

If FZ had been making his sidemen deal with unacceptable conditions, I
suspect the guys in the latter category wouldn't have put up with it,
and even the guys in the former category probably lost whatever
starry-eyed perspectives they would have had after a few months on the
road.

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Re: Vinnie [message #232336 ] Sa, 11 März 2006 19:18
Steve Brooks  
pbuzby2002 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Steve Brooks wrote:
>> The 3-4 albums a year is certainly unusual. But did/do the band
>> members[1] get royalties on performances which were released on
>> album?
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.frank-zappa/browse_th read/thread/81363f602efa45ab/8d79ff29ea521db3?lnk=st&q=B arrow+tours+truck+group%3Aalt.fan.frank-zappa&rnum=1& ;hl=en#8d79ff29ea521db3

Interesting. Thanks.

--

SB
Re: Vinnie [message #232339 ] So, 12 März 2006 00:33
mike macken  
On 11 Mar 2006 09:30:14 -0800, pbuzby2002 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>
>Mike Puterbaugh wrote:
>
>> It's worth mentioning, though, that by the time of all the
>> abovementioned guys, Frank was infamous enough that he could hire only
>> guys who really wanted to play in his band, and might be willing to
>> accept conditions that other "more professional" sidemen might not
>> have.
>
>Some of the guys in the late 70's/80's bands (Cucurullo, Vai, Keneally)
>were mega-fans who hadn't had any experience comparable to working with
>FZ when they got hired. Others (Bobby Martin, Alan Zavod, the '88
>horns) had been in the biz for a while and were more likely just
>looking for a gig.
>
>If FZ had been making his sidemen deal with unacceptable conditions, I
>suspect the guys in the latter category wouldn't have put up with it,
>and even the guys in the former category probably lost whatever
>starry-eyed perspectives they would have had after a few months on the
>road.
>
>Pat Buzby
>Chicago, IL


i think you guys may have missed what i have already posted here .
I don't think you can put a price tag on the fact that several of
these guys may have remained obsure for life if not for a stint with
the Zappa Band.
Re: Vinnie [message #232341 ] So, 12 März 2006 03:06
pbuzby2002  
mike macken wrote:

> i think you guys may have missed what i have already posted here .
> I don't think you can put a price tag on the fact that several of
> these guys may have remained obsure for life if not for a stint with
> the Zappa Band.

Sure, several of them would say that. OTOH, this doesn't mean that FZ
was a saint. He was a boss (a good boss, I think most of them would
say) and they were employees. If he didn't need them any longer, or
vice versa, the relationship would end.

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Vorheriges Thema:If Ivor Cutler and FZ be jammin' together in hebbin...
Nächstes Thema:If Anna Moffo be singing "Sleep Dirt" for FZ in hebbin'
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