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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: Between the Lhun and the Blue Mountains
Re: Between the Lhun and the Blue Mountains [message #232000] Di, 07 März 2006 20:07
Raven  
"Dave Stallard" <stallard [at] nospam.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:VJqdnaCdZc9olpDZRVn-vg [at] comcast.com...

> Professor T. says (somewhere) "Beyond the Lhun was Elvish country, green
> and quiet". It would therefore seem in effect part of Lindon, even
> though it is on the wrong side of the Ered Luin. f you look at the
> map, it's a not-inconsiderable slice of territory. What is its
> political status? This question troubles me ;)

The Gulf of Lhûn pierces the Ered Luin, and at the bottom of the gulf,
apparently upon the Lhûn estuary and certainly well east of the mountains,
lies Mithlond. I would hazard a guess that the land between northern Ered
Luin and the river Lhûn, about as large as the East Emnet and the Wold
combined, belonged to the Elves, although possibly they actually dwelt west
of the mountains, except those at the Havens. For one thing there were
Dwarvish settlements in the Blue Mountains themselves.
The west boundary of Arnor, and later of Arthedain, included Lhûn. From
app. A: "Eriador was of old the name of all the lands between the Misty
Mountains and the Blue", and then "At its greatest Arnor included all
Eriador, except the regions beyond the Lune, and the lands east of Greyflood
and Loudwater, in which lay Rivendell and Hollin. Beyond the Lune was
Elvish country, green and quiet, where no Men went; but Dwarves dwelt, and
still dwell, in the east side of the Blue Mountains, especially in those
parts south of the Gulf of Lune, where they have mines that are still in
use."
I wonder where the Dwarves crossed the Lhûn going to their settlements
north of the gulf. Very probably by a bridge, but was it at the Havens, or
further upriver? The Road on my map is marked only as far as the White
Downs. Thence the shortest road to the northern Ered Luin appears to pass
through or rather near the Havens. And did they pass through the
Middle-earth Elvish version of Elvish sovereign territory, just as they
passed through Hobbit sovereign territory in the Shire? Certainly neither
race would have the right to deny the Dwarves passage, since the Dwarves
must have been passing that way long before the establishment of either
nation.

Corb.
Re: Between the Lhun and the Blue Mountains [message #232003 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 03:23
Dave Stallard  
Raven wrote:

> The Gulf of Lhûn pierces the Ered Luin, and at the bottom of the gulf,
> apparently upon the Lhûn estuary and certainly well east of the mountains,
> lies Mithlond. I would hazard a guess that the land between northern Ered
> Luin and the river Lhûn, about as large as the East Emnet and the Wold
> combined, belonged to the Elves, although possibly they actually dwelt west
> of the mountains, except those at the Havens. For one thing there were
> Dwarvish settlements in the Blue Mountains themselves.

"Elvish country" does seem to imply the presence of Elves. But perhaps
not a settled presence. Dwarves can't have lived there, that's for
sure. I've never read of them living anywhere but inside a mountain, or
(if they are poor) inside a hill.

> I wonder where the Dwarves crossed the Lhûn going to their settlements
> north of the gulf. Very probably by a bridge, but was it at the Havens, or
> further upriver? The Road on my map is marked only as far as the White
> Downs. Thence the shortest road to the northern Ered Luin appears to pass
> through or rather near the Havens. And did they pass through the
> Middle-earth Elvish version of Elvish sovereign territory, just as they
> passed through Hobbit sovereign territory in the Shire? Certainly neither
> race would have the right to deny the Dwarves passage, since the Dwarves
> must have been passing that way long before the establishment of either
> nation.

I've wondered the same. Weren't Thorin's halls north of the Gulf?

Dave
Re: Between the Lhun and the Blue Mountains [message #232004 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 03:56
Stan Brown  
Tue, 07 Mar 2006 21:23:41 -0500 from Dave Stallard
<stallard [at] nospam.net>:
> "Elvish country" does seem to imply the presence of Elves. But perhaps
> not a settled presence.

IDHTBIFOM, but didn't someone in the Fellowship describe Eregion as
Elvish country, four and a half millennia after the Elves abandoned
it?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Between the Lhun and the Blue Mountains [message #232006 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 08:41
Christopher Kreuzer  
"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1e7811f79571720e98a1d4 [at] news.individual.net...
> Tue, 07 Mar 2006 21:23:41 -0500 from Dave Stallard
> <stallard [at] nospam.net>:
> > "Elvish country" does seem to imply the presence of Elves. But
perhaps
> > not a settled presence.
>
> IDHTBIFOM, but didn't someone in the Fellowship describe Eregion as
> Elvish country, four and a half millennia after the Elves abandoned
> it?

Yes. I thought of that as well. I think the quote is something about the
stones lamenting them. First Legolas says what he feels the stones are
saying: "high they builded us, fair they wrought us, but they are gone."
Then he adds his executive summary: "They are are gone. They sought the
havens long ago". Followed by a poetic silence.

Well, actually, having checked, the quote from Legolas is really:

"...the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan
folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them: Only I hear
the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high
they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the
Havens long ago." (The Ring Goes South)

And it is Gandalf who effectively says Hollin (Eregion) is an Elvish
country, though he doesn't use the exact word 'elvish'. This is the bit
to which Legolas replied with the quote above:

"There is a wholesome air about Hollin. Much evil must befall a country
before it wholly forgets the Elves, if once they dwelt there." (The Ring
Goes South)

Now we can wonder what Lindon and Rivendell and Lorien and Mirkwood and
Ithilien would feel like thousands of years later. Is the implication
that without evil the land will not forget the Elves? Or is the use of
'much' and 'wholly' just overblown rhetoric again? :-)

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Between the Lhun and the Blue Mountains [message #232099 ] So, 12 März 2006 05:01
Robinsons  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> Yes. I thought of that as well. I think the quote is something about the
> stones lamenting them. First Legolas says what he feels the stones are
> saying: "high they builded us, fair they wrought us, but they are gone."
> Then he adds his executive summary: "They are are gone. They sought the
> havens long ago". Followed by a poetic silence.

Legolas used PowerPoint, an Elvish invention. Especially in the movie version.

Before that you had meetings conducted by Ents.

> Well, actually, having checked, the quote from Legolas is really:
>
> "...the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan
> folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them: Only I hear
> the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high
> they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the
> Havens long ago." (The Ring Goes South)

Well, yes, if you don't have Power Point. :-b

> And it is Gandalf who effectively says Hollin (Eregion) is an Elvish
> country, though he doesn't use the exact word 'elvish'. This is the bit
> to which Legolas replied with the quote above:
>
> "There is a wholesome air about Hollin. Much evil must befall a country
> before it wholly forgets the Elves, if once they dwelt there." (The Ring
> Goes South)
>
> Now we can wonder what Lindon and Rivendell and Lorien and Mirkwood and
> Ithilien would feel like thousands of years later. Is the implication
> that without evil the land will not forget the Elves? Or is the use of
> 'much' and 'wholly' just overblown rhetoric again? :-)

Wholly.

--Ber "Take me to Eregion now and lay before me wholly holy cow"
Re: Between the Lhun and the Blue Mountains [message #240004 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 04:46
Dave Stallard  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> "Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1e7811f79571720e98a1d4 [at] news.individual.net...
>> Tue, 07 Mar 2006 21:23:41 -0500 from Dave Stallard
>> <stallard [at] nospam.net>:
>>> "Elvish country" does seem to imply the presence of Elves. But
> perhaps
>>> not a settled presence.
>> IDHTBIFOM, but didn't someone in the Fellowship describe Eregion as
>> Elvish country, four and a half millennia after the Elves abandoned
>> it?
>
> Yes. I thought of that as well. I think the quote is something about the
> stones lamenting them. First Legolas says what he feels the stones are
> saying: "high they builded us, fair they wrought us, but they are gone."
> Then he adds his executive summary: "They are are gone. They sought the
> havens long ago". Followed by a poetic silence.

So to be "Elvish", the trans-Lhun region either had Elves living in it
during the time of LotR, or at sometime in the past. Either makese
sense to me. Cirdan is described as struggling to hold the line of the
Lhun during the war with Sauron in Eriador in the Second Age, so it
seems at least possible that Elves were present there in substantial
numbers then.

I wonder how many Elves remained in Lindon itself during the Third Age,
given the rate of emigration to the West. After all, the Havens were
right there, and departure would have been convenient and often tempting
for those Elves who were affected by the sea-longing. In TA 1975 Lindon
did send a substantial army to rout Angmar, but that was over 1000 years
before the WR.

Dave.
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