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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Snape Idea
Snape Idea [message #231785] Mo, 13 März 2006 04:10
scenario_dave  
I'm thinking that Snape looks at himself as a rival to LV. He thinks
of himself as royal blood. He thinks of himself as the smartest guy
around, smarter than DD or LV. DD knew that Snape would eventually
double cross both DD and LV and was planning for it. When he found out
about the prediction, he changed the plan to include Harry.

That way Snape is not on DD side or on LV side, he's on his own side.
DD let Snape think he fooled him because DD figured he could either
convince Snape to stay on the good side or use Snape if he decided to
betray both sides, either way DD wins if he's quick thinking enough.

Its an old plot but why not.
Re: Snape Idea [message #231801 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 08:22
dsueme  
scenario_dave wrote:
> I'm thinking

No you aren't.

Dave
Re: Snape Idea [message #231819 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 10:31
cspirit  
So silly of you, David Sueme!

And regarding snape....it is indeed an old argument....
but still the dumbledore angle you have given is quite new....i never
thought of it in that way.

But if we think from Harry's perspective, he needs to learn that the
appearances are deceiving...There might be something more about a
certain severus Snape who has always hated him and killed Dumbledore...
and harry should not judge a book by its cover.

he needs to undergo this learning....
this is one of the reasons why i belong to 'Snape is Good' camp.
Re: Snape Idea [message #231821 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 11:29
nystulc  
scenario_dave wrote:
> That way Snape is not on DD side or on LV side, he's on his own side.

I see this comment alot. But it the distinction between Snape being
on his own side and on Voldemort's side is rather meaningless to me.
If Snape truly serves Voldemort it must be because Snape thinks there
is something in it for himself. I can hardly believe he is doing it
because he is in love with Voldemort's pretty face, or is filled with
an altruistic compassionate desire to hand this nice fellow more power,
to as to protect the poor boy from the agony of defeat.

There are two basic possibilities. Either Snape is completely selfish
and evil, or he is NOT completely selfish and evil (ie. he is to some
perhaps limited degree "Good").

If the former, then, if he serves Voldemort, he does so for selfish
motives. Fear of punishment and promise of reward both play a role.
He may have made a purely rational calculation that Voldemort will
emerge victorious, and is motivated by a desire to remain on the
winning side. One may guess that, as with most of the DEs, he would
act to destroy Voldemort if he calculated there were a net advantage to
himself. The only question, then, is whether replacing or challenging
the Dark Lord, thereby setting up a new "side" is a realistic option.
But that seems like too complicated a twist so late in the story. So
far we have only seen three "sides" that are organized to any extent:
(1) the Ministry (mainly corrupt and evil); (2) Voldemort & minions
(evil); (3) the Good Guys, mostly organized around DD and the Order of
the Phoenix.

If the latter, he might still serve Voldemort. Clearly, one need not
be completely selfish and evil to serve Voldy. Draco, for instance, is
not entirely selfish and evil. He loves his family, and Voldemort uses
this against him (ie. he uses Draco's "good" qualities to turn him into
his puppet and slave). However, it seems to me that, the way the story
is set up, if Snape is "Good" to any significant degree, it is most
likely that he serves Dumbledore.
Re: Snape Idea [message #231832 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 16:57
wadkin2000  
nystulc [at] cs.com wrote:
> scenario_dave wrote:
> > That way Snape is not on DD side or on LV side, he's on his own side.
>
> I see this comment alot. But it the distinction between Snape being
> on his own side and on Voldemort's side is rather meaningless to me.
> If Snape truly serves Voldemort it must be because Snape thinks there
> is something in it for himself. I can hardly believe he is doing it
> because he is in love with Voldemort's pretty face, or is filled with
> an altruistic compassionate desire to hand this nice fellow more power,
> to as to protect the poor boy from the agony of defeat.
>
> There are two basic possibilities. Either Snape is completely selfish
> and evil, or he is NOT completely selfish and evil (ie. he is to some
> perhaps limited degree "Good").
>
> If the former, then, if he serves Voldemort, he does so for selfish
> motives. Fear of punishment and promise of reward both play a role.
> He may have made a purely rational calculation that Voldemort will
> emerge victorious, and is motivated by a desire to remain on the
> winning side. One may guess that, as with most of the DEs, he would
> act to destroy Voldemort if he calculated there were a net advantage to
> himself. The only question, then, is whether replacing or challenging
> the Dark Lord, thereby setting up a new "side" is a realistic option.
> But that seems like too complicated a twist so late in the story. So
> far we have only seen three "sides" that are organized to any extent:
> (1) the Ministry (mainly corrupt and evil); (2) Voldemort & minions
> (evil); (3) the Good Guys, mostly organized around DD and the Order of
> the Phoenix.
>
> If the latter, he might still serve Voldemort. Clearly, one need not
> be completely selfish and evil to serve Voldy. Draco, for instance, is
> not entirely selfish and evil. He loves his family, and Voldemort uses
> this against him (ie. he uses Draco's "good" qualities to turn him into
> his puppet and slave). However, it seems to me that, the way the story
> is set up, if Snape is "Good" to any significant degree, it is most
> likely that he serves Dumbledore.
Re: Snape Idea [message #231835 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 18:08
wadkin2000  
nystulc [at] cs.com wrote:
> scenario_dave wrote:
> > That way Snape is not on DD side or on LV side, he's on his own side.
>
> I see this comment alot. But it the distinction between Snape being
> on his own side and on Voldemort's side is rather meaningless to me.
> If Snape truly serves Voldemort it must be because Snape thinks there
> is something in it for himself. I can hardly believe he is doing it
> because he is in love with Voldemort's pretty face, or is filled with
> an altruistic compassionate desire to hand this nice fellow more power,
> to as to protect the poor boy from the agony of defeat.
>
> There are two basic possibilities. Either Snape is completely selfish
> and evil, or he is NOT completely selfish and evil (ie. he is to some
> perhaps limited degree "Good").
>
> If the former, then, if he serves Voldemort, he does so for selfish
> motives. Fear of punishment and promise of reward both play a role.
> He may have made a purely rational calculation that Voldemort will
> emerge victorious, and is motivated by a desire to remain on the
> winning side. One may guess that, as with most of the DEs, he would
> act to destroy Voldemort if he calculated there were a net advantage to
> himself. The only question, then, is whether replacing or challenging
> the Dark Lord, thereby setting up a new "side" is a realistic option.
> But that seems like too complicated a twist so late in the story. So
> far we have only seen three "sides" that are organized to any extent:
> (1) the Ministry (mainly corrupt and evil); (2) Voldemort & minions
> (evil); (3) the Good Guys, mostly organized around DD and the Order of
> the Phoenix.
>
> If the latter, he might still serve Voldemort. Clearly, one need not
> be completely selfish and evil to serve Voldy. Draco, for instance, is
> not entirely selfish and evil. He loves his family, and Voldemort uses
> this against him (ie. he uses Draco's "good" qualities to turn him into
> his puppet and slave). However, it seems to me that, the way the story
> is set up, if Snape is "Good" to any significant degree, it is most
> likely that he serves Dumbledore.
Re: Snape Idea [message #231839 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 18:44
wadkin2000  
nystulc [at] cs.com wrote:
> scenario_dave wrote:
> > That way Snape is not on DD side or on LV side, he's on his own side.
>
> I see this comment alot. But it the distinction between Snape being
> on his own side and on Voldemort's side is rather meaningless to me.
> If Snape truly serves Voldemort it must be because Snape thinks there
> is something in it for himself. I can hardly believe he is doing it
> because he is in love with Voldemort's pretty face, or is filled with
> an altruistic compassionate desire to hand this nice fellow more power,
> to as to protect the poor boy from the agony of defeat.
>
> There are two basic possibilities. Either Snape is completely selfish
> and evil, or he is NOT completely selfish and evil (ie. he is to some
> perhaps limited degree "Good").
>
> If the former, then, if he serves Voldemort, he does so for selfish
> motives. Fear of punishment and promise of reward both play a role.
> He may have made a purely rational calculation that Voldemort will
> emerge victorious, and is motivated by a desire to remain on the
> winning side. One may guess that, as with most of the DEs, he would
> act to destroy Voldemort if he calculated there were a net advantage to
> himself. The only question, then, is whether replacing or challenging
> the Dark Lord, thereby setting up a new "side" is a realistic option.
> But that seems like too complicated a twist so late in the story. So
> far we have only seen three "sides" that are organized to any extent:
> (1) the Ministry (mainly corrupt and evil); (2) Voldemort & minions
> (evil); (3) the Good Guys, mostly organized around DD and the Order of
> the Phoenix.
>
> If the latter, he might still serve Voldemort. Clearly, one need not
> be completely selfish and evil to serve Voldy. Draco, for instance, is
> not entirely selfish and evil. He loves his family, and Voldemort uses
> this against him (ie. he uses Draco's "good" qualities to turn him into
> his puppet and slave). However, it seems to me that, the way the story
> is set up, if Snape is "Good" to any significant degree, it is most
> likely that he serves Dumbledore.


IMO, I don't feel the "Snape is on his own side" holds. Jo has said
that this is now a time for answers, not more questions. Throughout
books 1-5 the premise of Snape's loyalty has been based on "because
Dumbledore trusts him". In book 6, however, that is severely tested by
Snape's killing of Dumbledore (understatement!). I feel that Snape
originally believed in Voldemort's aims and ambitions (don't forget, he
was quite knowledgeable about the Dark Arts when he was a student at
Hogwarts). I think that underneath he was (and perhaps is) very
insecure. IMO, I don't feel he has the power within him to challenge
Voldemort for leadership. (Now Lucius Malfoy is another story
entirely!) The Death Eaters gave Snape a sense of belonging, a sense
of power. He was quite content to do Voldemort's bidding. Oh, yes,
perhaps deep in his soul and in the recesses of his mind, there were
nigglings of doubt about what he was doing, but those were swept away
by the lust of mob mentality. (sorry, getting carried away with the
prose!). I feel the turning point in his character came with the
knowledge that he set in motion the series of events that resulted in
the Potters' deaths (particulary Lily). I myself being in the "Snape
had feelings for Lily camp"...not "loved"...just "liked". I think that
was the catalyst that has kept him on Dumbledore's side. IMO, what it
comes down to is this: Do we feel that Dumbledore lost his edge, and
trusted too implicitly in order to always see the good in a person and
give the benefit of the doubt, therefore resulting in his ultimate
death?...or do we feel that Dumbledore was acutely aware of what and
how situations would arise and in advance, knowledgeably put in place
the pieces of the puzzle that, if necessary, would result in his death?
Re: Snape Idea [message #231847 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 19:18
scenario_dave  
>
> If the latter, he might still serve Voldemort. Clearly, one need not
> be completely selfish and evil to serve Voldy. Draco, for instance, is
> not entirely selfish and evil. He loves his family, and Voldemort uses
> this against him (ie. he uses Draco's "good" qualities to turn him into
> his puppet and slave). However, it seems to me that, the way the story
> is set up, if Snape is "Good" to any significant degree, it is most
> likely that he serves Dumbledore.

I still think he is loyal only to himself. Under my theory, Snape was
planning to be the number 2 guy until he had a chance to overthrow LV
and take over himself. DD knew that and knew that the DE would be very
disorganized if Snape ended up dividing the death eaters instead of
killing LV and taking over outright.

DD would be playing a very dangerous game of divide and conqure with
the DE but he may of felt that was the best way to win.

Snape is helping Harry because he might be able to kill LV that way.
He's also helping Harry because he'd leaving open the possibility to
switch back to the good side later on. The plot to kill LV and take
over does not have to take up many pages.
Re: Snape Idea [message #231860 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 20:57
Phil  
"David Sueme" <dsueme [at] comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1142234561.077279.276750 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
> scenario_dave wrote:
>> I'm thinking
>
> No you aren't.
>
> Dave
>
You don't seem to be either, Dave....
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