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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Christian home, Harry Potter rules
Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #230960] Mo, 06 März 2006 15:55
Oly Ink  
I could just poop at all this shat about Harry Potter being bad for
Christian children. How ridiculous.

Not that I plan on cramming it down anyone's throat here, because indeed I
find that just as ridiculous...however, I don't find a thing wrong with
sharing the wonderful stories of Harry Potter with my kids or myself and we
have a very strong Christian home.

Fiction is an amazing part of our literary world and as a Christian I
believe God gave us a mind to _use_. Not to waste. I would never think of
closing down my children nor my own imagination or chance to learn and
explore by editing content from their lives. I will expose them to all
kinds of things. For goodness sake it's 2006!! They will read what EVER
they feel like as it is appropriate to their age level, just as I would like
them to appreciate the amazing effect media has on society and the beauty of
cinema. It's just like the Christians who censor the art of the greats...
why??? Are their minds not strong enough to know the difference between
their religion and the outside world?? This isn't heaven, they're not
holding hands with God yet, and it's not a sin to explore the world and see
it for what it truly is.

Ridiculous. I'm just astonished at how many negative posts there are
related to this topic. So I thought I'd let you all know that I am proud to
be a Christian and I am proud to be a Harry Potter fan too. And all these
idiotic Christians who obviously don't know a thing about the gift of the
human spirit can go play in my poop.

Crystal,
stepping off soap box.
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #230967 ] Mo, 06 März 2006 18:12
Justin Sane  
"Oly Ink" <oly_ink [at] comcast.net> wrote in message
news:muSdncCXzbHG0JHZRVn-vw [at] comcast.com...
>I could just poop at all this shat about Harry Potter being bad for
> Christian children. How ridiculous.
>
> Not that I plan on cramming it down anyone's throat here, because indeed I
> find that just as ridiculous...however, I don't find a thing wrong with
> sharing the wonderful stories of Harry Potter with my kids or myself and
> we
> have a very strong Christian home.
>
> Fiction is an amazing part of our literary world and as a Christian I
> believe God gave us a mind to _use_. Not to waste. I would never think
> of
> closing down my children nor my own imagination or chance to learn and
> explore by editing content from their lives. I will expose them to all
> kinds of things. For goodness sake it's 2006!! They will read what EVER
> they feel like as it is appropriate to their age level, just as I would
> like
> them to appreciate the amazing effect media has on society and the beauty
> of
> cinema. It's just like the Christians who censor the art of the greats...
> why??? Are their minds not strong enough to know the difference between
> their religion and the outside world?? This isn't heaven, they're not
> holding hands with God yet, and it's not a sin to explore the world and
> see
> it for what it truly is.
>
> Ridiculous. I'm just astonished at how many negative posts there are
> related to this topic. So I thought I'd let you all know that I am proud
> to
> be a Christian and I am proud to be a Harry Potter fan too. And all these
> idiotic Christians who obviously don't know a thing about the gift of the
> human spirit can go play in my poop.
>
> Crystal,
> stepping off soap box.

Aren't you just fawking wonderful?
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #230972 ] Mo, 06 März 2006 19:00
Jan van Aalderen  
Oly Ink wrote:
> I could just poop at all this shat about Harry Potter being bad for
> Christian children. How ridiculous.

The very concept of "christian children" is ridiculous. Children of
parents who call themselves christians (whether they are or not is not
for others to decide), yes. But children are open minded, hence not
religious until after indoctrination.

I've never read of anyone letting there kids read any non-religious
fiction *because* of their religion. I often read of people denying
their kids such reading because of their religion.

Hence, religion is a negative element in that aspect of education.

> Not that I plan on cramming it down anyone's throat here, because indeed I
> find that just as ridiculous...however, I don't find a thing wrong with
> sharing the wonderful stories of Harry Potter with my kids or myself and we
> have a very strong Christian home.
>
> Fiction is an amazing part of our literary world and as a Christian I
> believe God gave us a mind to _use_. Not to waste. I would never think of
> closing down my children nor my own imagination or chance to learn and
> explore by editing content from their lives. I will expose them to all
> kinds of things. For goodness sake it's 2006!! They will read what EVER
> they feel like as it is appropriate to their age level, just as I would like
> them to appreciate the amazing effect media has on society and the beauty of
> cinema. It's just like the Christians who censor the art of the greats...
> why??? Are their minds not strong enough to know the difference between
> their religion and the outside world?? This isn't heaven, they're not
> holding hands with God yet, and it's not a sin to explore the world and see
> it for what it truly is.
>
> Ridiculous. I'm just astonished at how many negative posts there are
> related to this topic. So I thought I'd let you all know that I am proud to
> be a Christian and I am proud to be a Harry Potter fan too. And all these
> idiotic Christians who obviously don't know a thing about the gift of the
> human spirit can go play in my poop.

I mostly agree, except that I do not count myself as a follower of any
organized religion. Believes/faith is very personnal, and any organizing
implicates imposing the views of selfappointed "leaders" on others, who
are then supposed to switch of their brain. Ridiculous, if not evil.


> Crystal,
> stepping off soap box.
>
>


--
Vriendelijke groet,
Jan van Aalderen, Amstelveen
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*
Wie mijn raad volgt, doet zulks geheel op eigen risico!
Reactie op usenetpostjes in de groep. Email zie ik niet.
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #230981 ] Mo, 06 März 2006 20:07
pooter  
Oly Ink [oly_ink [at] comcast.net] said
> I could just poop at all this shat about Harry Potter being bad for
> Christian children. How ridiculous.
>
> Not that I plan on cramming it down anyone's throat here, because indeed I
> find that just as ridiculous...however, I don't find a thing wrong with
> sharing the wonderful stories of Harry Potter with my kids or myself and we
> have a very strong Christian home.
>
> Fiction is an amazing part of our literary world and as a Christian I
> believe God gave us a mind to _use_. Not to waste. I would never think of
> closing down my children nor my own imagination or chance to learn and
> explore by editing content from their lives. I will expose them to all
> kinds of things. For goodness sake it's 2006!! They will read what EVER
> they feel like as it is appropriate to their age level, just as I would like
> them to appreciate the amazing effect media has on society and the beauty of
> cinema. It's just like the Christians who censor the art of the greats...
> why??? Are their minds not strong enough to know the difference between
> their religion and the outside world?? This isn't heaven, they're not
> holding hands with God yet, and it's not a sin to explore the world and see
> it for what it truly is.
>
> Ridiculous. I'm just astonished at how many negative posts there are
> related to this topic. So I thought I'd let you all know that I am proud to
> be a Christian and I am proud to be a Harry Potter fan too. And all these
> idiotic Christians who obviously don't know a thing about the gift of the
> human spirit can go play in my poop.
>
> Crystal,
> stepping off soap box.
>
>
>

Being a Christian is about believing the contents of a particular book
and different sects interpret that book in different ways - some don't
like gays, some don't mind gays just as long as they do not have sex,
some won't have blood transfusions, some believe that marriage is until
death, some won't have female priests, some think priests should be
celibate, some think that must they must confess their sins on a regular
basis and some that baptism after death, even for non-christians, will
allow them to enter heaven (whether they want to or not), some don't
believe you have have sex unless you wish to procreate, some think that
masturbation is wrong, some think it is appropriate to have multiple
wives and incestuous children, some believe that the communion bread and
wine actually becomes the flesh and blood of christ, and some believe
that any hint or suggestion of witch craft is wrong.

What a laundry list!

So is it fair to say that those who do not think witch craft is right
should appreciate that it is 2006 while you yourself no doubt think it
is acceptable to believe whatever interpretation of the bible that you
happen to choose for yourself?

In fact, isn't it time you *all* noticed it is 2006 and that the time
for superstitious religious mumbo-jumbo has now passed its sell-by date
by some considerable period of time.
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #230985 ] Mo, 06 März 2006 21:08
mewthree  
"Justin Sane" <justinsane [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b1_Of.3876$l7.252 [at] bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Oly Ink" <oly_ink [at] comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:muSdncCXzbHG0JHZRVn-vw [at] comcast.com...
>>I could just poop at all this shat about Harry Potter being bad for
>> Christian children. How ridiculous.
>>
>> Not that I plan on cramming it down anyone's throat here, because indeed
>> I
>> find that just as ridiculous...however, I don't find a thing wrong with
>> sharing the wonderful stories of Harry Potter with my kids or myself and
>> we
>> have a very strong Christian home.
>>
>> Fiction is an amazing part of our literary world and as a Christian I
>> believe God gave us a mind to _use_. Not to waste. I would never think
>> of
>> closing down my children nor my own imagination or chance to learn and
>> explore by editing content from their lives. I will expose them to all
>> kinds of things. For goodness sake it's 2006!! They will read what EVER
>> they feel like as it is appropriate to their age level, just as I would
>> like
>> them to appreciate the amazing effect media has on society and the beauty
>> of
>> cinema. It's just like the Christians who censor the art of the
>> greats...
>> why??? Are their minds not strong enough to know the difference between
>> their religion and the outside world?? This isn't heaven, they're not
>> holding hands with God yet, and it's not a sin to explore the world and
>> see
>> it for what it truly is.
>>
>> Ridiculous. I'm just astonished at how many negative posts there are
>> related to this topic. So I thought I'd let you all know that I am proud
>> to
>> be a Christian and I am proud to be a Harry Potter fan too. And all
>> these
>> idiotic Christians who obviously don't know a thing about the gift of the
>> human spirit can go play in my poop.
>>
>> Crystal,
>> stepping off soap box.
>
> Aren't you just fawking wonderful?
>
>
>

i have trained two years as a roman catholic priest and i am one of the
biggest potter fans around. well i can tell the difference between fiction
and fact. those that can't knock it because they believe every one else
can't. maybe a few can't so we should help them not deny them the pleasure.
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231010 ] Mo, 06 März 2006 23:02
John VanSickle  
Oly Ink wrote:
> I could just poop at all this shat about Harry Potter being bad for
> Christian children. How ridiculous.
>
> Not that I plan on cramming it down anyone's throat here, because indeed I
> find that just as ridiculous...however, I don't find a thing wrong with
> sharing the wonderful stories of Harry Potter with my kids or myself and we
> have a very strong Christian home.

I endorse your product and/or service.

I suspect that if I were to examine the religious doctrines of those who
are opposed to Harry Potter, I would find at least one doctrine of their
church which is in direct contradiction with the Bible. This would not
disprove their contention that HP is Satanic (which point I rebut at
http://enphilistor.50megs.com/potter3.htm), but it would cast doubt on
their authority to command our attention.

Regards,
John
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231018 ] Mo, 06 März 2006 23:41
Thomas Madura  
John VanSickle wrote:
> Oly Ink wrote:
>
>> I could just poop at all this shat about Harry Potter being bad for
>> Christian children. How ridiculous.
>>
>> Not that I plan on cramming it down anyone's throat here, because
>> indeed I
>> find that just as ridiculous...however, I don't find a thing wrong with
>> sharing the wonderful stories of Harry Potter with my kids or myself
>> and we
>> have a very strong Christian home.
>
>
> I endorse your product and/or service.
>
> I suspect that if I were to examine the religious doctrines of those who
> are opposed to Harry Potter, I would find at least one doctrine of their
> church which is in direct contradiction with the Bible. This would not
> disprove their contention that HP is Satanic (which point I rebut at
> http://enphilistor.50megs.com/potter3.htm), but it would cast doubt on
> their authority to command our attention.
>
> Regards,
> John

What Bible?

Which Bible?

THere are so many different VERSIONS of the bible (THe catholic church
alone has had 17 official versions written - all saying things just
SLIGHTLY different) - that is ceases to be a useful document for any
purpose - legal or religious.

THe bible itself is a questionable document simply because it is
recognized as using metaphor and "parables" (WHich are little pieces of
fiction) to tell "Stories" that have religious meaning. However -
without having the "authors (Plural)" available or eye witnesses - it is
IMPOSSIBLE to determine if anything in it is other than heavily modified
fiction - since we have no authors or eye witnesses to the events
available. Even the words to what is unarguably the most basic "prayer"
in the bible - differ. The "mass" has evolved to be NOTHING like the
last supper in the bible.

The same people who are labeling HPO as satanic are the ones who are
arguing for prayer in school in the USA. Since the US government CANNOT
recognize any individual religion - it is those same people - who -if
they succeed - will guarantee that the Satanic cults have the same
right. I can't wait to see what Pat Robertson will say when he visits a
local school on Wican Prayer day!
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231050 ] Di, 07 März 2006 04:36
Oly Ink  
"pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1e7698cc5ff507e698a642 [at] nntp.dsl.pipex.com...
> Being a Christian is about believing the contents of a >particular book
and different sects interpret that book in >different ways -
*True, but as a Christian the belief becomes faith. Faith that God does
exsist, with or with out the bible and how the many secs interpret it.

>What a laundry list!
*Indeed. There is no perfection in any belief system. The perfection is in
how it works for you. I personally take the phrase, thou shalt not judge.

>So is it fair to say that those who do not think witch craft >is right
should appreciate that it is 2006 while you >yourself no doubt think it is
acceptable to believe >whatever interpretation of the bible that you happen
to >choose for yourself?
*I personally think that it is not my place to judge how someone else
practices religion, or non religion. However, my point was simply that as a
practicing Christian, I see nothing wrong with sharing the works of amazing
fiction and heart warming stories with my children. Is it not my
responsibility as a parent, regardless of religious prefrence, to teach and
guide my children to be loving, open minded, caring, educated individuals?

> In fact, isn't it time you *all* noticed it is 2006 and that >the time for
superstitious religious mumbo-jumbo has >now passed its sell-by date by some
considerable >period of time.
*If that works for you, it just doesn't work for me.

Crystal
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231051 ] Di, 07 März 2006 04:42
Oly Ink  
"Jan van Aalderen" <reply-in-group-please [at] jva.getxs.nl> wrote in message
news:120ou5369h6h936 [at] corp.supernews.com...
>The very concept of "christian children" is ridiculous. >Children of
parents who call themselves christians
>(whether they are or not is not for others to decide), yes. >But children
are open minded, hence not religious until >after indoctrination.
*Yes, but they are _my_ children. And I chose to teach them how to be open
minded and to share my religion with them. That's like saying you shouldn't
teach your children anything. Part of family is passing down heritage. If
they question it, I welcome that. And I would openly ask them to search for
their own answers.

>I've never read of anyone letting there kids read any >non-religious
fiction *because* of their religion.
*I wasn't saying I let my children read it because we are Christian. I was
simply saying, I find it very odd that because of a certain religion,
parents would chose to not allow their children to explore the works of
fiction.
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231053 ] Di, 07 März 2006 04:43
Oly Ink  
"Justin Sane" <justinsane [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b1_Of.3876
> Aren't you just fawking wonderful?

*That's debatable.
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231055 ] Di, 07 März 2006 05:14
drusilla  
Oly Ink escribió:
> "pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1e7698cc5ff507e698a642 [at] nntp.dsl.pipex.com...
>> Being a Christian is about believing the contents of a >particular book
> and different sects interpret that book in >different ways -
> *True, but as a Christian the belief becomes faith. Faith that God does
> exsist, with or with out the bible and how the many secs interpret it.
>
>> What a laundry list!
> *Indeed. There is no perfection in any belief system. The perfection is in
> how it works for you. I personally take the phrase, thou shalt not judge.

Actually, I studied in a Catholic School and I was told that the Bible
is like a fairy tale for Christians: just how our ancesters had tried to
explain their word and that shouldn't be taken as a fact.

> *I personally think that it is not my place to judge how someone else
> practices religion, or non religion. However, my point was simply that as a
> practicing Christian, I see nothing wrong with sharing the works of amazing
> fiction and heart warming stories with my children. Is it not my
> responsibility as a parent, regardless of religious prefrence, to teach and
> guide my children to be loving, open minded, caring, educated individuals?

That's because you are open-minded, for what I see. I think the same.
Yet, there are lazy parents that want their kids to be raised by society
rather than they: "That book is evil! Should be banned!". Why somethng
must be banned to another one: if you think it's not suitable for you an
d/or your family, that's your business. Period. For what I know, my
priest sometimes criticise several stuff, yet, you will never watch him
telling us 'don't do it'.

> *If that works for you, it just doesn't work for me.

Mostly people - I don't say people from afh-p - that I've made, have
'renounced' to religion because they had been able to find a suitable
answer or solution to all their troubles. Well, GOd is not a fairly
godparent. Whatsoever, I do believe there is a God - I've had my doubts
, though - yet, it works for me too.
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231108 ] Di, 07 März 2006 20:10
tbarry22  
'Reading Harry Potter will not persuade your child to join a witches'
coven. If your child embraces Wicca against your wishes, it is because
you have failed as a parent."

That is the most offensive thing I read. I agree with everything else
in your essay, but that is just an absurd statement. While I don't
believe anyone has any magical-type powers, to dismiss wicca as a
failure on parental involvement is ludicrous. What makes Wicca any
less legitimate than any other religion? That's like telling a
Catholic parent that he or she failed because their child converted to
Judaism. I am not stating this as a way to start an argument over
Wicca or any other religion. But Wicca is not Satanism, which is what
you seem to be equating it with. In the U.S., it is a recognized
legitimate religion (well, as far as the court system is concerned).
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231109 ] Di, 07 März 2006 20:37
pooter  
Oly Ink [oly_ink [at] comcast.net] said
>
> "pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1e7698cc5ff507e698a642 [at] nntp.dsl.pipex.com...
> > Being a Christian is about believing the contents of a >particular book
> and different sects interpret that book in >different ways -
> *True, but as a Christian the belief becomes faith. Faith that God does
> exsist, with or with out the bible and how the many secs interpret it.

And I have "faith" that there is a chocolate teapot orbiting the moon
and that the digestive biscuits are orbiting Venus. Yes, sounds potty
doesn't it....
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231110 ] Di, 07 März 2006 20:51
Jim McCauley  
"John VanSickle" <evilsnack [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:wj2Pf.7732$S25.5263 [at] newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I suspect that if I were to examine the religious doctrines of those who
> are opposed to Harry Potter, I would find at least one doctrine of their
> church which is in direct contradiction with the Bible.

The only doctrine of importance in this case is the deeply held conviction
of a small number of Christian fundamentalists that they have a sacred duty
to get God's name into the papers. He needs the publicity?

> This would not disprove their contention that HP is Satanic (which point I
> rebut at
> http://enphilistor.50megs.com/potter3.htm), but it would cast doubt on
> their authority to command our attention.

Their authority to command our attention is only slighlty less than that of
_People_ magazine and the _National Enquirer_.


Jim McCauley
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231124 ] Di, 07 März 2006 23:05
Oly Ink  
"pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
> And I have "faith" that there is a chocolate teapot >orbiting the moon and
that the digestive biscuits are >orbiting Venus. Yes, sounds potty doesn't
it....
*lol...well where there's faith, there's faith. Faith is believing in
something or someone because it's in your heart and soul...so if you have
faith in a chocolate teapot, who knows....
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231125 ] Di, 07 März 2006 23:11
drusilla  
Oly Ink escribió:
> "pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
>> And I have "faith" that there is a chocolate teapot >orbiting the moon and
> that the digestive biscuits are >orbiting Venus. Yes, sounds potty doesn't
> it....
> *lol...well where there's faith, there's faith. Faith is believing in
> something or someone because it's in your heart and soul...so if you have
> faith in a chocolate teapot, who knows....
>
>
We, catholics that are not fanatic nor crazy like that Pat Robinson guy
don't make fun of atheist or agnostic or such. In fact, we respect their
lives, although we might not agree with what they believe. Why don't you
can do the same? Let us be...
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231144 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 03:46
John VanSickle  
tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> 'Reading Harry Potter will not persuade your child to join a witches'
> coven. If your child embraces Wicca against your wishes, it is because
> you have failed as a parent."
>
> That is the most offensive thing I read.

You must have led a most sheltered existence if this is the most
offensive thing you have ever read.

> I agree with everything else in your essay, but that is just an
> absurd statement. While I don't believe anyone has any magical-type
> powers, to dismiss wicca as a failure on parental involvement is
> ludicrous. That's like telling a Catholic parent that he or she
> failed because their child converted to Judaism.

A Catholic parent *would* think that he had failed in such a
circumstance, presuming that he takes his Catholicism seriously. This
essay is written to people who have been told that reading Harry Potter
will cause their children to reject their parents' religious values
(which I probably should have stated more clearly), and who are
consequently worrying about whether they should allow their children to
read the books.

> I am not stating this as a way to start an argument over
> Wicca or any other religion. But Wicca is not Satanism, which is what
> you seem to be equating it with.

If I wanted to equate Wicca with Satanism I would have stated it
directly. I didn't. A lot of people do (mostly in the "HP is Satanism"
crowd), but I don't.

Regards,
John
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231146 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 03:52
John VanSickle  
Thom Madura wrote:

> John VanSickle wrote:
>
>> Oly Ink wrote:
>>
>>> I could just poop at all this shat about Harry Potter being bad for
>>> Christian children. How ridiculous.
>>>
>>> Not that I plan on cramming it down anyone's throat here, because
>>> indeed I
>>> find that just as ridiculous...however, I don't find a thing wrong with
>>> sharing the wonderful stories of Harry Potter with my kids or myself
>>> and we
>>> have a very strong Christian home.
>>
>>
>>
>> I endorse your product and/or service.
>>
>> I suspect that if I were to examine the religious doctrines of those
>> who are opposed to Harry Potter, I would find at least one doctrine of
>> their church which is in direct contradiction with the Bible. This
>> would not disprove their contention that HP is Satanic (which point I
>> rebut at
>> http://enphilistor.50megs.com/potter3.htm), but it would cast doubt on
>> their authority to command our attention.
>>
>> Regards,
>> John
>
>
> What Bible?
>
> Which Bible?
>
> THere are so many different VERSIONS of the bible (THe catholic church
> alone has had 17 official versions written - all saying things just
> SLIGHTLY different) - that is ceases to be a useful document for any
> purpose - legal or religious.

This doesn't prove anything about the Bible.

> THe bible itself is a questionable document simply because it is
> recognized as using metaphor and "parables" (WHich are little pieces of
> fiction) to tell "Stories" that have religious meaning. However -
> without having the "authors (Plural)" available or eye witnesses - it is
> IMPOSSIBLE to determine if anything in it is other than heavily modified
> fiction - since we have no authors or eye witnesses to the events
> available.

You believe a whole heap of things for which the original eyewitnesses
are not available. The vast majority of recorded history, for instance.

> Even the words to what is unarguably the most basic "prayer"
> in the bible - differ. The "mass" has evolved to be NOTHING like the
> last supper in the bible.

Again, this proves nothing.

> The same people who are labeling HPO as satanic are the ones who are
> arguing for prayer in school in the USA.

What do you mean by "arguing for prayer in school in the USA"?

Regards,
John
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231158 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 05:23
Oly Ink  
"drusilla" <me [at] me.net> wrote in message news:dul0eg$scb$1 [at] emma.aioe.org...
>We, catholics that are not fanatic nor crazy like that Pat >Robinson guy
don't make fun of atheist or agnostic or >such. In fact, we respect their
lives, although we might >not agree with what they believe. Why don't you
> can do the same? Let us be...

*I'm confused. How am I not letting you be? I don't believe at any point I
disagreed with any point of anyone's. As a matter of fact, I simply said
that I found it odd that parents use religion to censor literature from
their children....
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231161 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 05:42
drusilla  
Oly Ink escribió:
> "drusilla" <me [at] me.net> wrote in message news:dul0eg$scb$1 [at] emma.aioe.org...
>> We, catholics that are not fanatic nor crazy like that Pat >Robinson guy
> don't make fun of atheist or agnostic or >such. In fact, we respect their
> lives, although we might >not agree with what they believe. Why don't you
>> can do the same? Let us be...
>
> *I'm confused. How am I not letting you be? I don't believe at any point I
> disagreed with any point of anyone's. As a matter of fact, I simply said
> that I found it odd that parents use religion to censor literature from
> their children....
>
>

I didn't mean *you*, now I realised I meant other thing to say, I'm
sorry. You're fine :)

(truth be said, posts had been rather serious and off-topic these days,
so, while reading, I started checking some gossip sites for fun and I
got distracted. Well... all these Brokeback Mountain and people getting
drunk or being sober conversations... this is just too much
coincidence... I've been giggling all day because of this:

http://www.thesuperficial.com/archives/2006/03/07/jake_gylle nhaal_gets_drunk_at.html#comment
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231164 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 05:54
Oly Ink  
*wink* kay ;)

"drusilla" <me [at] me.net> wrote in message news:dulncd$ni0$1 [at] emma.aioe.org...
> Oly Ink escribió:
> > "drusilla" <me [at] me.net> wrote in message
news:dul0eg$scb$1 [at] emma.aioe.org...
> >> We, catholics that are not fanatic nor crazy like that Pat >Robinson
guy
> > don't make fun of atheist or agnostic or >such. In fact, we respect
their
> > lives, although we might >not agree with what they believe. Why don't
you
> >> can do the same? Let us be...
> >
> > *I'm confused. How am I not letting you be? I don't believe at any
point I
> > disagreed with any point of anyone's. As a matter of fact, I simply
said
> > that I found it odd that parents use religion to censor literature from
> > their children....
> >
> >
>
> I didn't mean *you*, now I realised I meant other thing to say, I'm
> sorry. You're fine :)
>
> (truth be said, posts had been rather serious and off-topic these days,
> so, while reading, I started checking some gossip sites for fun and I
> got distracted. Well... all these Brokeback Mountain and people getting
> drunk or being sober conversations... this is just too much
> coincidence... I've been giggling all day because of this:
>
>
http://www.thesuperficial.com/archives/2006/03/07/jake_gylle nhaal_gets_drunk
_at.html#comment
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231197 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 14:36
Thomas Madura  
John VanSickle wrote:
> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>> John VanSickle wrote:
>>
>>> Oly Ink wrote:
>>>
>>>> I could just poop at all this shat about Harry Potter being bad for
>>>> Christian children. How ridiculous.
>>>>
>>>> Not that I plan on cramming it down anyone's throat here, because
>>>> indeed I
>>>> find that just as ridiculous...however, I don't find a thing wrong with
>>>> sharing the wonderful stories of Harry Potter with my kids or myself
>>>> and we
>>>> have a very strong Christian home.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I endorse your product and/or service.
>>>
>>> I suspect that if I were to examine the religious doctrines of those
>>> who are opposed to Harry Potter, I would find at least one doctrine
>>> of their church which is in direct contradiction with the Bible.
>>> This would not disprove their contention that HP is Satanic (which
>>> point I rebut at
>>> http://enphilistor.50megs.com/potter3.htm), but it would cast doubt
>>> on their authority to command our attention.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> What Bible?
>>
>> Which Bible?
>>
>> THere are so many different VERSIONS of the bible (THe catholic church
>> alone has had 17 official versions written - all saying things just
>> SLIGHTLY different) - that is ceases to be a useful document for any
>> purpose - legal or religious.
>
>
> This doesn't prove anything about the Bible.

It proves that there is not just one "Bible" - but many of them and that
they do not all say the same thing.

>
>> THe bible itself is a questionable document simply because it is
>> recognized as using metaphor and "parables" (WHich are little pieces
>> of fiction) to tell "Stories" that have religious meaning. However -
>> without having the "authors (Plural)" available or eye witnesses - it
>> is IMPOSSIBLE to determine if anything in it is other than heavily
>> modified fiction - since we have no authors or eye witnesses to the
>> events available.
>
>
> You believe a whole heap of things for which the original eyewitnesses
> are not available. The vast majority of recorded history, for instance.

However - recorded history is just that recorded - not altered. THe
bible has been rewritten on numerous occasions - and it has been altered
to suit the needs of the time.


>
>> Even the words to what is unarguably the most basic "prayer" in the
>> bible - differ. The "mass" has evolved to be NOTHING like the last
>> supper in the bible.
>
>
> Again, this proves nothing.

Again - it proves that one cannot point to anything in any one of the
bibles and say with any certainty that that might have been something
that actually happened - or what actually happened. In fact - since it
is already recognized that the bible is written in Metaphor and Parables
- that a case could be made that the WHOLE THING is just a fictional
document and none of it ever happened.


>
>> The same people who are labeling HPO as satanic are the ones who are
>> arguing for prayer in school in the USA.
>
>
> What do you mean by "arguing for prayer in school in the USA"?


The religious right in the US has been trying to somehow make it legal
for prayers to be said in public schools - something that is currently
prohibited.


>
> Regards,
> John
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231198 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 14:38
Thomas Madura  
John VanSickle wrote:

> tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> 'Reading Harry Potter will not persuade your child to join a witches'
>> coven. If your child embraces Wicca against your wishes, it is because
>> you have failed as a parent."
>>
>> That is the most offensive thing I read.
>
>
> You must have led a most sheltered existence if this is the most
> offensive thing you have ever read.
>
> > I agree with everything else in your essay, but that is just an
> > absurd statement. While I don't believe anyone has any magical-type
> > powers, to dismiss wicca as a failure on parental involvement is
> > ludicrous. That's like telling a Catholic parent that he or she
> > failed because their child converted to Judaism.
>
> A Catholic parent *would* think that he had failed in such a
> circumstance, presuming that he takes his Catholicism seriously. This
> essay is written to people who have been told that reading Harry Potter
> will cause their children to reject their parents' religious values
> (which I probably should have stated more clearly), and who are
> consequently worrying about whether they should allow their children to
> read the books.
>
>> I am not stating this as a way to start an argument over
>> Wicca or any other religion. But Wicca is not Satanism, which is what
>> you seem to be equating it with.
>
>
> If I wanted to equate Wicca with Satanism I would have stated it
> directly. I didn't. A lot of people do (mostly in the "HP is Satanism"
> crowd), but I don't.
>
> Regards,
> John


And what is wrong with Satanism?
In mono - theism - GOD created EVERYTHING - both good and BAD. Satan and
Hell are both creations of GOD (If you believe in GOD).
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231240 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 21:47
pooter  
drusilla [me [at] me.net] said
> Oly Ink escribió:
> > "pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
> >> And I have "faith" that there is a chocolate teapot >orbiting the moon and
> > that the digestive biscuits are >orbiting Venus. Yes, sounds potty doesn't
> > it....
> > *lol...well where there's faith, there's faith. Faith is believing in
> > something or someone because it's in your heart and soul...so if you have
> > faith in a chocolate teapot, who knows....
> >
> >
> We, catholics that are not fanatic nor crazy like that Pat Robinson guy
> don't make fun of atheist or agnostic or such. In fact, we respect their
> lives, although we might not agree with what they believe. Why don't you
> can do the same? Let us be...
>

Because religious doctrine effects normal people profoundly as it gets
into schools, government and suicide bombers to name just three.

It is therefore *you* who should leave us be!
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231248 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 23:12
drusilla  
pooter escribió:
> drusilla [me [at] me.net] said
>> Oly Ink escribió:
>>> "pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
>>>> And I have "faith" that there is a chocolate teapot >orbiting the moon and
>>> that the digestive biscuits are >orbiting Venus. Yes, sounds potty doesn't
>>> it....
>>> *lol...well where there's faith, there's faith. Faith is believing in
>>> something or someone because it's in your heart and soul...so if you have
>>> faith in a chocolate teapot, who knows....
>>>
>>>
>> We, catholics that are not fanatic nor crazy like that Pat Robinson guy
>> don't make fun of atheist or agnostic or such. In fact, we respect their
>> lives, although we might not agree with what they believe. Why don't you
>> can do the same? Let us be...
>>
>
> Because religious doctrine effects normal people profoundly as it gets
> into schools, government and suicide bombers to name just three.
>
> It is therefore *you* who should leave us be!

All schools in Peru have religion as an obligatory subject. We pray
every day before start classes, yet, it's the religion classes are more
theory than tell you what to do or what to read. No one forces the other
what to do. For instance, when I was in my last year, we had two
students who were from other religion. They stay at the class and
listen, even gave the tests but no one forced them to believe or do what
they didn't want. Even for us, catholic, Confirmation was always an option.
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231252 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 23:25
Kish  
drusilla wrote:
> pooter escribió:
>
>> drusilla [me [at] me.net] said

>>> We, catholics that are not fanatic nor crazy like that Pat Robinson
>>> guy don't make fun of atheist or agnostic or such. In fact, we
>>> respect their lives, although we might not agree with what they
>>> believe. Why don't you can do the same? Let us be...
>>>
>>
>> Because religious doctrine effects normal people profoundly as it gets
>> into schools, government and suicide bombers to name just three.
>>
>> It is therefore *you* who should leave us be!
>
>
> All schools in Peru have religion as an obligatory subject. We pray
> every day before start classes, yet, it's the religion classes are more
> theory than tell you what to do or what to read. No one forces the other
> what to do.

Erm. *twitch* No one? So a student who didn't want to pray before
classes would experience no official or unofficial consequences from
choosing not to? Not being pushed to by the teacher /or/ beaten up by
other students in the halls (or ostracized by other students, or treated
like a freak) for it?
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231255 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 23:33
drusilla  
Kish escribió:
> drusilla wrote:
>> pooter escribió:
>>
>>> drusilla [me [at] me.net] said
>
>>>> We, catholics that are not fanatic nor crazy like that Pat Robinson
>>>> guy don't make fun of atheist or agnostic or such. In fact, we
>>>> respect their lives, although we might not agree with what they
>>>> believe. Why don't you can do the same? Let us be...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because religious doctrine effects normal people profoundly as it
>>> gets into schools, government and suicide bombers to name just three.
>>>
>>> It is therefore *you* who should leave us be!
>>
>>
>> All schools in Peru have religion as an obligatory subject. We pray
>> every day before start classes, yet, it's the religion classes are
>> more theory than tell you what to do or what to read. No one forces
>> the other what to do.
>
> Erm. *twitch* No one? So a student who didn't want to pray before
> classes would experience no official or unofficial consequences from
> choosing not to? Not being pushed to by the teacher /or/ beaten up by
> other students in the halls (or ostracized by other students, or treated
> like a freak) for it?

Never happened here. If you don't want to pray, simply keep your lips
shut. You think I did want to pray the eleven years I spent in high
school? Nope. Sometimes, I just want to start the classes, yet, there
were other who did want to pray so, I remain silent respecting the
others. The most teachers ask you is exactly that: respect. You don't
want, fine: don't do it. Then let the others to do it.

And, unlike USA, we in Peru don't beat up people nor treat them like
freaks because of their religious choices: for using the wrong clothes,
might be, but not for religious choices: we've learned tolerance. :)

(OK, we are not that tolerant as I would like but not as sometimes we
see in American cliché movies: that barely happens here.)
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231261 ] Do, 09 März 2006 00:37
pooter  
drusilla [me [at] me.net] said
> pooter escribió:
> > drusilla [me [at] me.net] said
> >> Oly Ink escribió:
> >>> "pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
> >>>> And I have "faith" that there is a chocolate teapot >orbiting the moon and
> >>> that the digestive biscuits are >orbiting Venus. Yes, sounds potty doesn't
> >>> it....
> >>> *lol...well where there's faith, there's faith. Faith is believing in
> >>> something or someone because it's in your heart and soul...so if you have
> >>> faith in a chocolate teapot, who knows....
> >>>
> >>>
> >> We, catholics that are not fanatic nor crazy like that Pat Robinson guy
> >> don't make fun of atheist or agnostic or such. In fact, we respect their
> >> lives, although we might not agree with what they believe. Why don't you
> >> can do the same? Let us be...
> >>
> >
> > Because religious doctrine effects normal people profoundly as it gets
> > into schools, government and suicide bombers to name just three.
> >
> > It is therefore *you* who should leave us be!
>
> All schools in Peru have religion as an obligatory subject. We pray
> every day before start classes, yet, it's the religion classes are more
> theory than tell you what to do or what to read. No one forces the other
> what to do. For instance, when I was in my last year, we had two
> students who were from other religion. They stay at the class and
> listen, even gave the tests but no one forced them to believe or do what
> they didn't want. Even for us, catholic, Confirmation was always an option.
>

The point is that no-religion should be the normal state and if people
want to believe in some god or another then that is their affair, but
they should do it in their own time, in their own space and most
certainly not in a school where there are impressionable young people
who would do better in life without being indoctrinated.

The only religion in schools should be in the history and social science
classes.
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231262 ] Do, 09 März 2006 00:41
drusilla  
pooter escribió:
> drusilla [me [at] me.net] said
>> pooter escribió:
>>> drusilla [me [at] me.net] said
>>>> Oly Ink escribió:
>>>>> "pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> And I have "faith" that there is a chocolate teapot >orbiting the moon and
>>>>> that the digestive biscuits are >orbiting Venus. Yes, sounds potty doesn't
>>>>> it....
>>>>> *lol...well where there's faith, there's faith. Faith is believing in
>>>>> something or someone because it's in your heart and soul...so if you have
>>>>> faith in a chocolate teapot, who knows....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> We, catholics that are not fanatic nor crazy like that Pat Robinson guy
>>>> don't make fun of atheist or agnostic or such. In fact, we respect their
>>>> lives, although we might not agree with what they believe. Why don't you
>>>> can do the same? Let us be...
>>>>
>>> Because religious doctrine effects normal people profoundly as it gets
>>> into schools, government and suicide bombers to name just three.
>>>
>>> It is therefore *you* who should leave us be!
>> All schools in Peru have religion as an obligatory subject. We pray
>> every day before start classes, yet, it's the religion classes are more
>> theory than tell you what to do or what to read. No one forces the other
>> what to do. For instance, when I was in my last year, we had two
>> students who were from other religion. They stay at the class and
>> listen, even gave the tests but no one forced them to believe or do what
>> they didn't want. Even for us, catholic, Confirmation was always an option.
>>
>
> The point is that no-religion should be the normal state

This is what I mean. WHy no-religion should be normal? I could say,
"religion should be normal and believe or not should be the option. The
thing is that nothing should be nothing.


and if people
> want to believe in some god or another then that is their affair, but
> they should do it in their own time, in their own space and most
> certainly not in a school where there are impressionable young people
> who would do better in life without being indoctrinated.

Well, my country is 90% religious and 60% catholic. Religion here is the
'normal thing'.

> The only religion in schools should be in the history and social science
> classes.

Religion here is part of our history and social life. So, it's part of
our lives. Every place is different. See, USA makes a fuss about sex-ed
in schools: here is a subject in Pre-school.
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231266 ] Do, 09 März 2006 00:54
John VanSickle  
Thom Madura wrote:
> John VanSickle wrote:
>
>> Thom Madura wrote:
>>
>>> John VanSickle wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oly Ink wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I could just poop at all this shat about Harry Potter being bad for
>>>>> Christian children. How ridiculous.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not that I plan on cramming it down anyone's throat here, because
>>>>> indeed I
>>>>> find that just as ridiculous...however, I don't find a thing wrong
>>>>> with
>>>>> sharing the wonderful stories of Harry Potter with my kids or
>>>>> myself and we
>>>>> have a very strong Christian home.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I endorse your product and/or service.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that if I were to examine the religious doctrines of those
>>>> who are opposed to Harry Potter, I would find at least one doctrine
>>>> of their church which is in direct contradiction with the Bible.
>>>> This would not disprove their contention that HP is Satanic (which
>>>> point I rebut at
>>>> http://enphilistor.50megs.com/potter3.htm), but it would cast doubt
>>>> on their authority to command our attention.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> John
>>>
>>> What Bible?
>>>
>>> Which Bible?
>>>
>>> THere are so many different VERSIONS of the bible (THe catholic
>>> church alone has had 17 official versions written - all saying things
>>> just SLIGHTLY different) - that is ceases to be a useful document for
>>> any purpose - legal or religious.
>>
>> This doesn't prove anything about the Bible.
>
> It proves that there is not just one "Bible" - but many of them and that
> they do not all say the same thing.

Granted there are may different translations of the Bible. Between the
King James' Version and the New International Version there are
differences in renderings that are too numerous to count. Since I have
some knowledge of the original languages--and I have the Bible in the
original Greek, hebrew, and Chaldean--I'm able to tell which rendering
is closer to the original meaning.

But the passages to which I refered in my original claim do not differ
significantly in any version of which I am aware.

>>> THe bible itself is a questionable document simply because it is
>>> recognized as using metaphor and "parables" (WHich are little pieces
>>> of fiction) to tell "Stories" that have religious meaning. However -
>>> without having the "authors (Plural)" available or eye witnesses - it
>>> is IMPOSSIBLE to determine if anything in it is other than heavily
>>> modified fiction - since we have no authors or eye witnesses to the
>>> events available.
>>
>> You believe a whole heap of things for which the original eyewitnesses
>> are not available. The vast majority of recorded history, for instance.
>
> However - recorded history is just that recorded - not altered.

Sure, sure, believe what you want.

>>> Even the words to what is unarguably the most basic "prayer" in the
>>> bible - differ. The "mass" has evolved to be NOTHING like the last
>>> supper in the bible.
>>
>> Again, this proves nothing.
>
> Again - it proves that one cannot point to anything in any one of the
> bibles and say with any certainty that that might have been something
> that actually happened - or what actually happened.

The problem with making categorical statements, as you have just done,
is that they are disproven by one conflicting datum. I can name one off
the top of my head: The Bible says that Herod the Great died. Secular
history records that Herod the Great did, in fact, die.

> In fact - since it is already recognized that the bible is written in
> Metaphor and Parables - that a case could be made that the WHOLE THING
> is just a fictional document and none of it ever happened.

Jesus told a few parables in order to illustrate whatever point he is
trying to make. If you think that this somewhow disproves the
historical narratives, you are guilty of an error of logic.

>>> The same people who are labeling HPO as satanic are the ones who are
>>> arguing for prayer in school in the USA.
>>
>> What do you mean by "arguing for prayer in school in the USA"?
>
> The religious right in the US has been trying to somehow make it legal
> for prayers to be said in public schools - something that is currently
> prohibited.

You are quite wrong about prayer in schools being illegal. It is most
certainly not illegal for a student to pray in class. He/she may not
disrupt the class, of course, but prayer is otherwise legal.

Regards,
John
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231267 ] Do, 09 März 2006 00:56
John VanSickle  
Thom Madura wrote:

> And what is wrong with Satanism?

Now you're just being obtuse.

> In mono - theism - GOD created EVERYTHING - both good and BAD. Satan and
> Hell are both creations of GOD (If you believe in GOD).

Yes. If you think this is a contradiction, you are guilty of an error
in logic.

Regards,
John
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231340 ] Do, 09 März 2006 21:14
pooter  
drusilla [me [at] me.net] said
> pooter escribió:

> > The point is that no-religion should be the normal state
>
> This is what I mean. WHy no-religion should be normal?

The very fact you have to ask that is perhaps the answer. :-)

> I could say,
> "religion should be normal and believe or not should be the option. The
> thing is that nothing should be nothing.

I said "normal state", ie, the default condition. The default condition
for schools, government and whatever else should be to be religion free
and that way no ones religious doctrine can be imposed on anyone else.

> and if people
> > want to believe in some god or another then that is their affair, but
> > they should do it in their own time, in their own space and most
> > certainly not in a school where there are impressionable young people
> > who would do better in life without being indoctrinated.
>
> Well, my country is 90% religious and 60% catholic. Religion here is the
> 'normal thing'.

You have my commiserations.

> > The only religion in schools should be in the history and social science
> > classes.
>
> Religion here is part of our history and social life. So, it's part of
> our lives. Every place is different. See, USA makes a fuss about sex-ed
> in schools: here is a subject in Pre-school.

I don't live in America so I cannot comment on their school system
beyond knowing that a lot of effort is put into making them religion
free (as decreed by their constitution) despite the enormous efforts of
some, in some parts of the USA, to teach religion doctrine as scientific
fact.
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231356 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 00:39
Thomas Madura  
John VanSickle wrote:
> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>> John VanSickle wrote:
>>
>>> Thom Madura wrote:
>>>
>>>> John VanSickle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Oly Ink wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I could just poop at all this shat about Harry Potter being bad for
>>>>>> Christian children. How ridiculous.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not that I plan on cramming it down anyone's throat here, because
>>>>>> indeed I
>>>>>> find that just as ridiculous...however, I don't find a thing wrong
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> sharing the wonderful stories of Harry Potter with my kids or
>>>>>> myself and we
>>>>>> have a very strong Christian home.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I endorse your product and/or service.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect that if I were to examine the religious doctrines of
>>>>> those who are opposed to Harry Potter, I would find at least one
>>>>> doctrine of their church which is in direct contradiction with the
>>>>> Bible. This would not disprove their contention that HP is Satanic
>>>>> (which point I rebut at
>>>>> http://enphilistor.50megs.com/potter3.htm), but it would cast doubt
>>>>> on their authority to command our attention.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What Bible?
>>>>
>>>> Which Bible?
>>>>
>>>> THere are so many different VERSIONS of the bible (THe catholic
>>>> church alone has had 17 official versions written - all saying
>>>> things just SLIGHTLY different) - that is ceases to be a useful
>>>> document for any purpose - legal or religious.
>>>
>>>
>>> This doesn't prove anything about the Bible.
>>
>>
>> It proves that there is not just one "Bible" - but many of them and
>> that they do not all say the same thing.
>
>
> Granted there are may different translations of the Bible. Between the
> King James' Version and the New International Version there are
> differences in renderings that are too numerous to count. Since I have
> some knowledge of the original languages--and I have the Bible in the
> original Greek, hebrew, and Chaldean--I'm able to tell which rendering
> is closer to the original meaning.
>
> But the passages to which I refered in my original claim do not differ
> significantly in any version of which I am aware.
>
>>>> THe bible itself is a questionable document simply because it is
>>>> recognized as using metaphor and "parables" (WHich are little pieces
>>>> of fiction) to tell "Stories" that have religious meaning. However -
>>>> without having the "authors (Plural)" available or eye witnesses -
>>>> it is IMPOSSIBLE to determine if anything in it is other than
>>>> heavily modified fiction - since we have no authors or eye witnesses
>>>> to the events available.
>>>
>>>
>>> You believe a whole heap of things for which the original
>>> eyewitnesses are not available. The vast majority of recorded
>>> history, for instance.
>>
>>
>> However - recorded history is just that recorded - not altered.
>
>
> Sure, sure, believe what you want.
>
>>>> Even the words to what is unarguably the most basic "prayer" in the
>>>> bible - differ. The "mass" has evolved to be NOTHING like the last
>>>> supper in the bible.
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, this proves nothing.
>>
>>
>> Again - it proves that one cannot point to anything in any one of the
>> bibles and say with any certainty that that might have been something
>> that actually happened - or what actually happened.
>
>
> The problem with making categorical statements, as you have just done,
> is that they are disproven by one conflicting datum. I can name one off
> the top of my head: The Bible says that Herod the Great died. Secular
> history records that Herod the Great did, in fact, die.


Sorry - in a court of law- the Bible is not admissible as evidence -
simply because it cannot be proven to be anything other than an article
of FAITH. It does not even qualify as Hear-say -which itself would not
be admissible either. That being the case = you cannot use an article of
faith to prove reality.

Having said that - one cannot use obvious history to prove that the rest
of the bible is more than fiction. as is noted - EVERYONE DIES - we
don't need a bible for that. Real events can and have been added to lots
of fictional stories and that did not make the stories any more real.


>
>> In fact - since it is already recognized that the bible is written in
>
> > Metaphor and Parables - that a case could be made that the WHOLE THING
> > is just a fictional document and none of it ever happened.
>
> Jesus told a few parables in order to illustrate whatever point he is
> trying to make. If you think that this somewhow disproves the
> historical narratives, you are guilty of an error of logic.

Sorry - it is you who are not being logical. There is nothing logical
about the stories of Jesus. An Immortal "god" who cannot die - came to
earth to bring the fallen Jews back into the fold - he knew what would
happen to him - who would betray him - etc - and still as a GOD - he
allowed it to happen in order to show his "Love" of mankind. Even though
HE did nothing wrong - his father - the MAIN GOD - allowed his SON to be
tortured and seemingly murdered (However - an immortal GOD cannot die -
so he really could not have) - only to rise from the dead in front of NO
ONE to prove his point. Worse yet - he then rose back into heaven with
his human body - when no one else in heaven had one of those - to leave
no evidence of his person. Please - if there is a god - he is not all
Stupid.
>
>>>> The same people who are labeling HPO as satanic are the ones who are
>>>> arguing for prayer in school in the USA.
>>>
>>>
>>> What do you mean by "arguing for prayer in school in the USA"?
>>
>>
>> The religious right in the US has been trying to somehow make it legal
>> for prayers to be said in public schools - something that is currently
>> prohibited.
>
>
> You are quite wrong about prayer in schools being illegal. It is most
> certainly not illegal for a student to pray in class. He/she may not
> disrupt the class, of course, but prayer is otherwise legal.


Sorry = public prayer is not allowed in public schools.


>
> Regards,
> John
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231358 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 00:42
Thomas Madura  
John VanSickle wrote:

> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>> And what is wrong with Satanism?
>
>
> Now you're just being obtuse.



>
>> In mono - theism - GOD created EVERYTHING - both good and BAD. Satan
>> and Hell are both creations of GOD (If you believe in GOD).
>
>
> Yes. If you think this is a contradiction, you are guilty of an error
> in logic.

WHich means you have no problem with Satanism. Since God created it - it
should be exalted and praised.


>
> Regards,
> John
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231359 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 00:48
Brian  
Thom Madura wrote:
> In mono - theism - GOD created EVERYTHING - both good and BAD. Satan
> and Hell are both creations of GOD (If you believe in GOD).

John VanSickle wrote:
> Yes. If you think this is a contradiction, you are guilty of an error
> in logic.

Thom Madura wrote:
> Which means you have no problem with Satanism. Since God created it - it
> should be exalted and praised.

Your logic is bizarre. You cannot claim that Satan and Hell must be
creations of God because God created everything good and bad, and then
conclude that because God created Satanism it must be good. Either
God can create bad things, or not. You can't have it both ways--at
least, not in the same argument, please.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
(Location of these pages soon to change. Stay tuned for updates.)
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231360 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 00:53
Thomas Madura  
pooter wrote:

> drusilla [me [at] me.net] said
>
>>pooter escribió:
>
>
>>>The point is that no-religion should be the normal state
>>
>>This is what I mean. WHy no-religion should be normal?
>
>
> The very fact you have to ask that is perhaps the answer. :-)
>
>
>>I could say,
>>"religion should be normal and believe or not should be the option. The
>>thing is that nothing should be nothing.
>
>
> I said "normal state", ie, the default condition. The default condition
> for schools, government and whatever else should be to be religion free
> and that way no ones religious doctrine can be imposed on anyone else.
>
>
>>and if people
>>
>>>want to believe in some god or another then that is their affair, but
>>>they should do it in their own time, in their own space and most
>>>certainly not in a school where there are impressionable young people
>>>who would do better in life without being indoctrinated.
>>
>>Well, my country is 90% religious and 60% catholic. Religion here is the
>>'normal thing'.
>
>
> You have my commiserations.
>
>
>>>The only religion in schools should be in the history and social science
>>>classes.
>>
>>Religion here is part of our history and social life. So, it's part of
>>our lives. Every place is different. See, USA makes a fuss about sex-ed
>>in schools: here is a subject in Pre-school.
>
>
> I don't live in America so I cannot comment on their school system
> beyond knowing that a lot of effort is put into making them religion
> free (as decreed by their constitution) despite the enormous efforts of
> some, in some parts of the USA, to teach religion doctrine as scientific
> fact.
>
>
>
>


The reason why NO religion must be the rule here is simple - the
government is not allowed to recognize religion or "a" religion. However
- if the government did allow prayer in schools - it could not
descriminate between ANY of the religions simply because the right of an
individual to chose is paramount to our system- which means it would
have to allow Wiccan prayer, Satanism, cult prayer, etc. Even a
constitutionl ammendment would have a problem if it infringed on the
rights an an individual to practice whatever he chose. I doubt it would
reach a vote under those circumstances.


When "Christians" cannot even agree on the words to the "Lords Prayer"
- to which protestants add a passage at the end not on the Catholic
version - imagine the problems it would create if a student decided to
"pray" to Buddah - or Vishnu - or Allah. While equally misguided - I am
sure the religious right in my country would not want their children
exposed to these faiths. They do not really have religious freedom on
their minds - they want to enforce their religious beliefs on others.
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231365 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 01:25
Thomas Madura  
Brian Tung wrote:

> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>>In mono - theism - GOD created EVERYTHING - both good and BAD. Satan
>>and Hell are both creations of GOD (If you believe in GOD).
>
>
> John VanSickle wrote:
>
>>Yes. If you think this is a contradiction, you are guilty of an error
>>in logic.
>
>
> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>>Which means you have no problem with Satanism. Since God created it - it
>>should be exalted and praised.
>
>
> Your logic is bizarre. You cannot claim that Satan and Hell must be
> creations of God because God created everything good and bad, and then
> conclude that because God created Satanism it must be good. Either
> God can create bad things, or not. You can't have it both ways--at
> least, not in the same argument, please.
>

But you want to have it both ways.

God Has to be the source of all evil - since he is the source of
everything. However - I will pray to him because he is good?
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231381 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 02:34
Brian  
Thom Madura wrote:
> But you want to have it both ways.

?! I never asserted you had to pray to him. You can refuse to pray
for the rest of whatever, for all I care. I only ask that if you
advance an argument, that argument should be logical. For what it's
worth, I'm a disinterested party in this discussion.

> God Has to be the source of all evil - since he is the source of
> everything. However - I will pray to him because he is good?

No. That logic is as tortured as the one you used.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
(Location of these pages soon to change. Stay tuned for updates.)
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231397 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 04:10
Thomas Madura  
Brian Tung wrote:
> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>>But you want to have it both ways.
>
>
> ?! I never asserted you had to pray to him. You can refuse to pray
> for the rest of whatever, for all I care. I only ask that if you
> advance an argument, that argument should be logical. For what it's
> worth, I'm a disinterested party in this discussion.
>
>
>>God Has to be the source of all evil - since he is the source of
>>everything. However - I will pray to him because he is good?
>
>
> No. That logic is as tortured as the one you used.
>
Clearly you are not a disinterested party - although you were not the
person I meant the reply for - I am sorry. However - the logic that if
there was NOTHING but GOD and GOD created EVERYTHING - that means that
god created both good and evil cannot be escaped. IF GOD was not the
source of evil - who was? THere was no other. However - if you believe
this to be illogical - then please enlighten me to the source of evil
not created by GOD (Who created both Satan and Hell).
Re: Christian home, Harry Potter rules [message #231403 ] Fr, 10 März 2006 04:54
Brian  
Thom Madura wrote:
> Clearly you are not a disinterested party - although you were not the
> person I meant the reply for - I am sorry.

No worries; I figured that was what happened.

No, clearly I am not an *uninterested* party. I *am* disinterested;
that is, I have no vested interest (emotional or material) in the
outcome of this discussion. (Similarly, if I watch a Spurs-Pistons
basketball game, I am a disinterested observer since I don't care who
wins the game. However, by the mere fact of paying attention to the
game, I am not an uninterested observer.)

I specifically used the word "disinterested" for that reason. I know
that some people misuse "disinterested" for "uninterested," but I can't
control that.

> However - the logic that if
> there was NOTHING but GOD and GOD created EVERYTHING - that means that
> god created both good and evil cannot be escaped. IF GOD was not the
> source of evil - who was? THere was no other. However - if you believe
> this to be illogical - then please enlighten me to the source of evil
> not created by GOD (Who created both Satan and Hell).

No, your logical flaw is not in asserting that if God created everything,
then Hell must have been created by God. Your logical flaw was in then
adding that Hell must be OK because it was created by God. That does
follow, since your premise is that everything, including evil (which is
presumably not OK), is created by God.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
(Location of these pages soon to change. Stay tuned for updates.)
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