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Music / Musik » alt.fan.frank-zappa » Chicago Billy The Mountain
Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224780] Di, 28 Februar 2006 23:29
Chris West  
I just heard the recording of Billy The Mountain from Chicago 21 May
1971 for the first time. Is there any doubt about this date? It's just
that in this show, some people say Studebaker Hoch looked like Iggy
Stooge (or something like that) whereas all the other May shows have him
looking like Marshall Brevitz, according to Charles's excellent page.

Also, at the Delaware performance from the next day Zappa says it's the
second performance of the oratorio. (He'd previously said it was the
first performance at Claremont.)

On the other hand it ends shortly after the solos like the other May
Billy's, so it probably is some time in May.
--
Chris West
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224783 ] Mi, 01 März 2006 04:55
Charles Ulrich  
In article <lxa9nIB56MBEFwlt [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I just heard the recording of Billy The Mountain from Chicago 21 May
> 1971 for the first time. Is there any doubt about this date?

I haven't confirmed it, but I've never had reason to doubt it either.

If anyone cares to check Chicago newspapers from 1971 for ads or concert
listings, I'll be glad to hear the results.

> It's just that in this show, some people say Studebaker Hoch looked
> like Iggy Stooge (or something like that) whereas all the other May
> shows have him looking like Marshall Brevitz, according to Charles's
> excellent page.

<http://members.shaw.ca/fz-pomd/vaudeville/btm.html>, for those who may
not be aware of it.

> Also, at the Delaware performance from the next day Zappa says it's the
> second performance of the oratorio. (He'd previously said it was the
> first performance at Claremont.)
>
> On the other hand it ends shortly after the solos like the other May
> Billy's, so it probably is some time in May.

The variations didn't all start at once. The stores started changing
almost immediately. Marshall Brevitz was history by June, but some of
the southern California references (KTTV news service, San Joaquin
Valley smut ring, Palmdale grand jury) were still there.

How about the other items in my chart? Are they still as in the script?

Who played solos?

Thanks for your help.

--Charles
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224786 ] Mi, 01 März 2006 06:21
Strictly Commercial  
Chris West wrote:
> I just heard the recording of Billy The Mountain from Chicago 21 May
> 1971 for the first time. Is there any doubt about this date?

Yes. Many experts believe this show actually took place in 1917.

R
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224790 ] Mi, 01 März 2006 10:39
Chris West  
In article <VbaNf.9212$vC4.4253 [at] clgrps12>, Strictly Commercial
<maurerrnot [at] telus.net> writes
>Chris West wrote:
>> I just heard the recording of Billy The Mountain from Chicago 21 May
>>1971 for the first time. Is there any doubt about this date?
>
>Yes. Many experts believe this show actually took place in 1917.

LOL
--
Chris West
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224791 ] Mi, 01 März 2006 10:38
Chris West  
In article <ulrich-0DA07E.19561828022006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
<ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
>In article <lxa9nIB56MBEFwlt [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
> Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I just heard the recording of Billy The Mountain from Chicago 21 May
>> 1971 for the first time. Is there any doubt about this date?
>
>I haven't confirmed it, but I've never had reason to doubt it either.

Another reason to doubt it is that on the 22nd, Zappa says they've been
together 3 weeks and 3 days and the gig is their third job. If they
played Mothers' Day at the Whisky-a-go-go and Claremont on the 18th,
something is wrong.

>If anyone cares to check Chicago newspapers from 1971 for ads or concert
>listings, I'll be glad to hear the results.
>
>> It's just that in this show, some people say Studebaker Hoch looked
>> like Iggy Stooge (or something like that) whereas all the other May
>> shows have him looking like Marshall Brevitz, according to Charles's
>> excellent page.
>
><http://members.shaw.ca/fz-pomd/vaudeville/btm.html>, for those who may
>not be aware of it.

And a great page it is too! Anyone recognise who Iggy Stooge is? (Or
Marshall Brevitz for that matter...)

>> Also, at the Delaware performance from the next day Zappa says it's the
>> second performance of the oratorio. (He'd previously said it was the
>> first performance at Claremont.)
>>
>> On the other hand it ends shortly after the solos like the other May
>> Billy's, so it probably is some time in May.
>
>The variations didn't all start at once. The stores started changing
>almost immediately. Marshall Brevitz was history by June, but some of
>the southern California references (KTTV news service, San Joaquin
>Valley smut ring, Palmdale grand jury) were still there.
>
>How about the other items in my chart? Are they still as in the script?

It's a terrible sounding tape so it's hard to tell. As far as I can tell
everything else is the same apart from the stores. Studebaker Hoch's
speech doesn't appear at all (before or after).

The show is currently available at zappateers if you want to check for
yourself.

>Who played solos?

It sounds like a guitar solo, a pretty bad electric piano solo, and then
a longer guitar solo but the tape is so bad it's hard to be sure. Maybe
the first solo is a sax with a wah-wah pedal. The tape keeps dropping in
pitch at that point, and there's a complete change of sound quality just
after the main guitar solo starts, from bad to worse.
--
Chris West
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224792 ] Mi, 01 März 2006 10:56
niknikniknik  
"Chris West" <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gaOMtNEquWBEFwHs [at] zadok.demon.co.uk...
> Anyone recognise who Iggy Stooge is?

You are joking right?
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224793 ] Mi, 01 März 2006 11:28
Chris West  
In article <S9WdndFbdcgq8pjZnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d [at] sysmatrix.net>,
^^indifference^^ <niknikniknik [at] indians.?.invalid> writes
>
>"Chris West" <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:gaOMtNEquWBEFwHs [at] zadok.demon.co.uk...
>> Anyone recognise who Iggy Stooge is?
>
>You are joking right?

No. That's not a name that I recognise at all. Is he famous to
Americans?
--
Chris West
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224797 ] Mi, 01 März 2006 13:20
niknikniknik  
"Chris West" <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4rIaBkGxcXBEFwXO [at] zadok.demon.co.uk...
> In article <S9WdndFbdcgq8pjZnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d [at] sysmatrix.net>,
> ^^indifference^^ <niknikniknik [at] indians.?.invalid> writes
>>
>>"Chris West" <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:gaOMtNEquWBEFwHs [at] zadok.demon.co.uk...
>>> Anyone recognise who Iggy Stooge is?
>>
>>You are joking right?
>
> No. That's not a name that I recognise at all. Is he famous to Americans?
> --
> Chris West

Maybe you know him as Iggy Pop. http://www.iggypop.com/ Formerly known as
Iggy Stooge.
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224800 ] Mi, 01 März 2006 14:31
Chris West  
In article <B-mdnXRTm4XiDJjZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d [at] sysmatrix.net>,
^^indifference^^ <niknikniknik [at] indians.?.invalid> writes
>
>"Chris West" <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:4rIaBkGxcXBEFwXO [at] zadok.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <S9WdndFbdcgq8pjZnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d [at] sysmatrix.net>,
>> ^^indifference^^ <niknikniknik [at] indians.?.invalid> writes
>>>
>>>"Chris West" <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>news:gaOMtNEquWBEFwHs [at] zadok.demon.co.uk...
>>>> Anyone recognise who Iggy Stooge is?
>>>
>>>You are joking right?
>>
>> No. That's not a name that I recognise at all. Is he famous to Americans?
>> --
>> Chris West
>
>Maybe you know him as Iggy Pop. http://www.iggypop.com/ Formerly known as
>Iggy Stooge.

Oh yes! I've heard of him :)

--
Chris West
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224808 ] Mi, 01 März 2006 20:27
Charles Ulrich  
In article <gaOMtNEquWBEFwHs [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <ulrich-0DA07E.19561828022006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
> <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
> >In article <lxa9nIB56MBEFwlt [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
> > Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> I just heard the recording of Billy The Mountain from Chicago 21 May
> >> 1971 for the first time. Is there any doubt about this date?
> >
> >I haven't confirmed it, but I've never had reason to doubt it either.
>
> Another reason to doubt it is that on the 22nd, Zappa says they've been
> together 3 weeks and 3 days

Maybe he was counting rehearsals.

> and the gig is their third job. If they played Mothers' Day at the
> Whisky-a-go-go and Claremont on the 18th, something is wrong.

Hmm.

> >> It's just that in this show, some people say Studebaker Hoch looked
> >> like Iggy Stooge

Maybe the so-called Chicago tape is actually from 5/25/71 Detroit?

Can you make out any local content elsewhere in the show?

> It's a terrible sounding tape so it's hard to tell. As far as I can tell
> everything else is the same apart from the stores.

Can you make out the names of the stores? Marshall Field's?

Did they play the Low Budget intro?

--Charles
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224809 ] Mi, 01 März 2006 21:33
Chris West  
In article <ulrich-9F2FDC.11290701032006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
<ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
>In article <gaOMtNEquWBEFwHs [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
> Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <ulrich-0DA07E.19561828022006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
>> <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
>> >In article <lxa9nIB56MBEFwlt [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
>> > Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I just heard the recording of Billy The Mountain from Chicago 21 May
>> >> 1971 for the first time. Is there any doubt about this date?
>> >
>> >I haven't confirmed it, but I've never had reason to doubt it either.
>>
>> Another reason to doubt it is that on the 22nd, Zappa says they've been
>> together 3 weeks and 3 days
>
>Maybe he was counting rehearsals.

He must have been. My first thought was that the Whisky-a-go-go was a
different band, but it falls within the 3 week 3 day period.

>> and the gig is their third job. If they played Mothers' Day at the
>> Whisky-a-go-go and Claremont on the 18th, something is wrong.
>
>Hmm.
>
>> >> It's just that in this show, some people say Studebaker Hoch looked
>> >> like Iggy Stooge
>
>Maybe the so-called Chicago tape is actually from 5/25/71 Detroit?
>
>Can you make out any local content elsewhere in the show?

Not yet. Where is Iggy Stooge/Pop from?

>> It's a terrible sounding tape so it's hard to tell. As far as I can tell
>> everything else is the same apart from the stores.
>
>Can you make out the names of the stores? Marshall Field's?

I can't hear the first one at all, but the second one might be 'the
nearest Safeway store'. I can email a 97KB mp3 of the first one if you
want to try and identify it.

>Did they play the Low Budget intro?

Yes.

--
Chris West
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224813 ] Mi, 01 März 2006 22:29
Charles Ulrich  
In article <yMhoYuGUUgBEFwlC [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <ulrich-9F2FDC.11290701032006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
> <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
> >In article <gaOMtNEquWBEFwHs [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
> > Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <ulrich-0DA07E.19561828022006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
> >> <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
> >> >In article <lxa9nIB56MBEFwlt [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
> >> > Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> It's just that in this show, some people say Studebaker Hoch looked
> >> >> like Iggy Stooge
> >
> >Maybe the so-called Chicago tape is actually from 5/25/71 Detroit?
> >
> >Can you make out any local content elsewhere in the show?
>
> Not yet. Where is Iggy Stooge/Pop from?

Detroit (or thereabouts). That's why I suggested the (confirmed) 5/25/71
show.

> I can't hear the first one at all, but the second one might be 'the
> nearest Safeway store'. I can email a 97KB mp3 of the first one if you
> want to try and identify it.

That would be great. Thanks.

--Charles
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #224816 ] Do, 02 März 2006 01:25
Charles Ulrich  
In article <yMhoYuGUUgBEFwlC [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <ulrich-9F2FDC.11290701032006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
> <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
> >Can you make out the names of the stores? Marshall Field's?
>
> I can't hear the first one at all, but the second one might be 'the
> nearest Safeway store'. I can email a 97KB mp3 of the first one if you
> want to try and identify it.

Thanks. I had no trouble identifying it as "...the nearest Montgomery
Ward..."

Marshall Field's would have been good evidence for Chicago.

I think Montgomery Ward was probably nationwide.

Anyone know whether they had Montgomery Ward and Safeway in Chicago
and/or Detroit circa 1971?

--Charles
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #232173 ] Do, 02 März 2006 14:03
Bill  
In article <ulrich-CE36F6.13304901032006 [at] shawnews>,
Charles Ulrich <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> wrote:

> In article <yMhoYuGUUgBEFwlC [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
> Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <ulrich-9F2FDC.11290701032006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
> > <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
> > >In article <gaOMtNEquWBEFwHs [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
> > > Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > >> In article <ulrich-0DA07E.19561828022006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
> > >> <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
> > >> >In article <lxa9nIB56MBEFwlt [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
> > >> > Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> It's just that in this show, some people say Studebaker Hoch looked
> > >> >> like Iggy Stooge
> > >
> > >Maybe the so-called Chicago tape is actually from 5/25/71 Detroit?
> > >
> > >Can you make out any local content elsewhere in the show?
> >
> > Not yet. Where is Iggy Stooge/Pop from?
>
> Detroit (or thereabouts). That's why I suggested the (confirmed) 5/25/71
> show.
>

You may want to know that according to
http://www.geocities.com/mnennoburke/dirtstradelist.html
Iggy and the Stooges were on tour for at least part of May 1971, so this
may be a case where Iggy and Frank were in the same town at the same
time, both on tour. Or, possibly, Iggy's name was on the marquee
advertising "Tomorrow Night! Iggy and the Stooges!" while Frank was
there.
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #232175 ] Do, 02 März 2006 15:07
pbuzby2002  
Bill wrote:
> You may want to know that according to
> http://www.geocities.com/mnennoburke/dirtstradelist.html
> Iggy and the Stooges were on tour for at least part of May 1971, so this
> may be a case where Iggy and Frank were in the same town at the same
> time, both on tour. Or, possibly, Iggy's name was on the marquee
> advertising "Tomorrow Night! Iggy and the Stooges!" while Frank was
> there.

The Stooges were big with the rock press of the time. If FZ hadn't
heard of Iggy through those channels, Flo and Eddie probably would
have.

Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #232176 ] Do, 02 März 2006 15:22
John Henley  
In article <ulrich-438EF9.16261601032006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
<ulrich [at] sfu.ca> wrote:

> Anyone know whether they had Montgomery Ward and Safeway in Chicago
> and/or Detroit circa 1971?

Montgomery Ward was _founded_ in Chicago, and
its 1908 building on the Chicago River was company
headquarters until 1976. The company declined over
a 40-year period, closing in early 2001, but it's fair
to figure there was still a store in Detroit in 1971.

As to Safeway, I'd be surprised to hear there was a
Safeway in either city, because although it's been
a megagrocerycorp that's owned chains all over
the country, I think the Safeway name was mostly
confined to the Southwest and the Pacific Northwest.
Don't know for sure, though.

John Henley
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #232178 ] Do, 02 März 2006 17:28
Chris West  
In article <020320060822044800%jhenley [at] mail.utexas.edu>, John Henley
<jhenley [at] mail.utexas.edu> writes
>In article <ulrich-438EF9.16261601032006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
><ulrich [at] sfu.ca> wrote:
>
>> Anyone know whether they had Montgomery Ward and Safeway in Chicago
>> and/or Detroit circa 1971?
>
>Montgomery Ward was _founded_ in Chicago, and
>its 1908 building on the Chicago River was company
>headquarters until 1976. The company declined over
>a 40-year period, closing in early 2001, but it's fair
>to figure there was still a store in Detroit in 1971.

So that would be a pretty good reason for Flo & Eddie to namecheck it at
a Chicago show.

>As to Safeway, I'd be surprised to hear there was a
>Safeway in either city, because although it's been
>a megagrocerycorp that's owned chains all over
>the country, I think the Safeway name was mostly
>confined to the Southwest and the Pacific Northwest.
>Don't know for sure, though.

I think Safeway was a fall-back they used when they only knew one local
store name.

--
Chris West
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #232198 ] Fr, 03 März 2006 05:39
Charles Ulrich  
In article <1141308445.130973.299020 [at] t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
pbuzby2002 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> Bill wrote:
> > You may want to know that according to
> > http://www.geocities.com/mnennoburke/dirtstradelist.html
> > Iggy and the Stooges were on tour for at least part of May 1971, so this
> > may be a case where Iggy and Frank were in the same town at the same
> > time, both on tour. Or, possibly, Iggy's name was on the marquee
> > advertising "Tomorrow Night! Iggy and the Stooges!" while Frank was
> > there.
>
> The Stooges were big with the rock press of the time. If FZ hadn't
> heard of Iggy through those channels, Flo and Eddie probably would
> have.

The Psychedelic Stooges (before they even shortened their name) opened
for the Mothers on April 28, 1968.

--Charles
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #232200 ] Fr, 03 März 2006 05:42
Charles Ulrich  
In article <Tv$QwpOv0xBEFwzh [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <020320060822044800%jhenley [at] mail.utexas.edu>, John Henley
> <jhenley [at] mail.utexas.edu> writes
> >In article <ulrich-438EF9.16261601032006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
> ><ulrich [at] sfu.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> Anyone know whether they had Montgomery Ward and Safeway in Chicago
> >> and/or Detroit circa 1971?
> >
> >Montgomery Ward was _founded_ in Chicago, and
> >its 1908 building on the Chicago River was company
> >headquarters until 1976. The company declined over
> >a 40-year period, closing in early 2001, but it's fair
> >to figure there was still a store in Detroit in 1971.
>
> So that would be a pretty good reason for Flo & Eddie to namecheck it at
> a Chicago show.

Yes, but they might have mentioned it anywhere if, as I believe, it's a
nationwide chain.

> >As to Safeway, I'd be surprised to hear there was a
> >Safeway in either city, because although it's been
> >a megagrocerycorp that's owned chains all over
> >the country, I think the Safeway name was mostly
> >confined to the Southwest and the Pacific Northwest.
> >Don't know for sure, though.
>
> I think Safeway was a fall-back they used when they only knew one local
> store name.

In that situation, especially this early in the tour, you'd think they'd
follow the script, which has Ralphs Market.

In fact, although they've had Safeway in northern California at least
since the 1960s, I don't remember any Safeways in southern California,
where I lived in the late 1970s and early 1980s. I remember Ralphs,
Vons, Albertson's, and Lucky, but not Safeway.

Did they even have Safeway in Los Angeles in 1971?

--Charles
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #232209 ] Fr, 03 März 2006 16:25
John Henley  
In article <ulrich-917274.20435402032006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
<ulrich [at] sfu.ca> wrote:

> In article <Tv$QwpOv0xBEFwzh [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
> Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > So that would be a pretty good reason for Flo & Eddie to namecheck it at
> > a Chicago show. [Montgomery Ward]
>
> Yes, but they might have mentioned it anywhere if, as I believe, it's a
> nationwide chain.

Well, sorry if I didn't make that clear, but Montgomery
Ward _was_ indeed a nationwide chain. Its basic sales
strategy was: Open showroom stores in the downtown
area of every town in the US that could conceivably
support a store.
In my hometown of Brownwood, Texas, the Montgomery
Ward building had been put up about 1920 or so, and was
four stories tall, with a basement - a veritable skyscraper
for central Texas.
What killed Wards was failing to note the flight to the
suburbs and the resultant dying downtowns all over
the country, until it was too late. Classic boneheadedness.

John Henley
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #232210 ] Fr, 03 März 2006 19:27
Biffy the Elephant Sh  
>In fact, although they've had Safeway in northern California at least
>since the 1960s, I don't remember any Safeways in southern California,
>where I lived in the late 1970s and early 1980s. I remember Ralphs,
>Vons, Albertson's, and Lucky, but not Safeway.
>
>Did they even have Safeway in Los Angeles in 1971?

We had Safeway stores in San Diego in the '60s.

Your pal,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #232211 ] Fr, 03 März 2006 22:31
Penguin  
Charles Ulrich <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> wrote in
news:ulrich-917274.20435402032006 [at] shawnews:

> In article <Tv$QwpOv0xBEFwzh [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
> Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <020320060822044800%jhenley [at] mail.utexas.edu>, John Henley
>> <jhenley [at] mail.utexas.edu> writes
>> >In article <ulrich-438EF9.16261601032006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
>> ><ulrich [at] sfu.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Anyone know whether they had Montgomery Ward and Safeway in
>> >> Chicago and/or Detroit circa 1971?
>> >
>> >Montgomery Ward was _founded_ in Chicago, and
>> >its 1908 building on the Chicago River was company
>> >headquarters until 1976. The company declined over
>> >a 40-year period, closing in early 2001, but it's fair
>> >to figure there was still a store in Detroit in 1971.
>>
>> So that would be a pretty good reason for Flo & Eddie to namecheck it
>> at a Chicago show.
>
> Yes, but they might have mentioned it anywhere if, as I believe, it's
> a nationwide chain.
>
>> >As to Safeway, I'd be surprised to hear there was a
>> >Safeway in either city, because although it's been
>> >a megagrocerycorp that's owned chains all over
>> >the country, I think the Safeway name was mostly
>> >confined to the Southwest and the Pacific Northwest.
>> >Don't know for sure, though.
>>
>> I think Safeway was a fall-back they used when they only knew one
>> local store name.
>
> In that situation, especially this early in the tour, you'd think
> they'd follow the script, which has Ralphs Market.
>
> In fact, although they've had Safeway in northern California at least
> since the 1960s, I don't remember any Safeways in southern California,
> where I lived in the late 1970s and early 1980s. I remember Ralphs,
> Vons, Albertson's, and Lucky, but not Safeway.
>

Safeway has been a fixture in Maryland since at least 1989, and most
likely before that as well. 1989 is just the furthest back I can verify
having personally been at a Safeway.



Considering the changes to BTM and the "third show" etc reference, I'd
pin this show as sometime between the 24th and the 31st. Zappa's memory
over years might be distorted (1972/1973 issues), but I figure he'd be
one of the experts in how many shows he's played over the last three
weeks - unless Herbie Cohen was -REALLY- screwing him on the business
side.


Also, this is the only known circulating F&E show with Tell Me You Love
Me. Seems to me a bit more likely that this would be after the three
shows with strikingly similar setlists - but Zappa's been flakey in the
past.
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #232212 ] Fr, 03 März 2006 23:50
Charles Ulrich  
In article <Xns977BA7E9F8C1Fsmirkbourough [at] 216.196.97.131>,
Penguin <notinbondage [at] nymore.com> wrote:

> Also, this is the only known circulating F&E show with Tell Me You Love
> Me.

Ah. Good observation.

> Seems to me a bit more likely that this would be after the three
> shows with strikingly similar setlists

I don't see those other three (5/18/71 Claremont, 5/22/71 Delaware,
5/23/71 Columbus) as more similar to each other than to the alleged
5/21/71 Chicago.

Note also that the traditional dating of this show puts Twenty Small
Cigars in all the shows until it's dropped after 5/22/71, never to be
played again.

--Charles
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #240170 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 20:37
Official Barking Pump  
Charles Ulrich <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> wrote in news:ulrich-
3A9039.14515203032006 [at] shawnews:

> In article <Xns977BA7E9F8C1Fsmirkbourough [at] 216.196.97.131>,
> Penguin <notinbondage [at] nymore.com> wrote:
>
>> Also, this is the only known circulating F&E show with Tell Me You
Love
>> Me.
>
> Ah. Good observation.
>
>> Seems to me a bit more likely that this would be after the three
>> shows with strikingly similar setlists
>
> I don't see those other three (5/18/71 Claremont, 5/22/71 Delaware,
> 5/23/71 Columbus) as more similar to each other than to the alleged
> 5/21/71 Chicago.
>
> Note also that the traditional dating of this show puts Twenty Small
> Cigars in all the shows until it's dropped after 5/22/71, never to be
> played again.
>
> --Charles
>

Not to beat up a dead horse, but -

While browsing the IINK site, I stumbled across this:

Junier Mintz Boogie
Olympia Stadium, Detroit, MI
May 25, 1971
(Latex Solar Beef solo)


Since this song was not played on the "Chicago" tape - and the Chicago
tape does seem to be relatively complete - then wouldn't this pretty
much mean that either the Chicago tape -is- from Chicago, or Frank -and-
a taper got some dates wrong (unlikely but probably not unheard of)? And
wouldn't the more likely of those two possibilities be that this tape
is, fortunately / unfortunately (choose your pick), from Chicago?
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #240171 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 21:36
Charles Ulrich  
In article <Xns97879475157D2smirkbourough [at] 216.196.97.131>,
Don Von Juan Lon Gone Ron Pon Won Ton Mon <9r7s3jk02 [at] sneakemail.com>
failed to quote:

> Maybe the so-called Chicago tape is actually from 5/25/71 Detroit?

when he wrote:

> While browsing the IINK site,

[i.e. Romn's chronology
<http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/chronology/1970-1972.html>]

>I stumbled across this:
>
> Junier Mintz Boogie
> Olympia Stadium, Detroit, MI
> May 25, 1971
> (Latex Solar Beef solo)
>
> Since this song was not played on the "Chicago" tape - and the Chicago
> tape does seem to be relatively complete - then wouldn't this pretty
> much mean that either the Chicago tape -is- from Chicago, or Frank -and-
> a taper got some dates wrong (unlikely but probably not unheard of)? And
> wouldn't the more likely of those two possibilities be that this tape
> is, fortunately / unfortunately (choose your pick), from Chicago?

You lost me.

I see your argument that the alleged 5/21/71 Chicago tape is not from
5/25/71 Detroit, given that it doesn't contain Latex Solar Beef/Junier
Mintz Boogie.

But I don't see how that means it must be from Chicago. Why couldn't it
have been from some other show, such as 5/27/71 Madison or 5/29/71
Rochester or 5/30/71 Cleveland? I only suggested Detroit because of the
reference to Iggy Stooge.

Anyway, I don't think Chris provided conclusive evidence that the tape
couldn't possibly be from 5/21/71 Chicago. So I agree with you that it's
most likely from 5/21/71 Chicago, as labeled.

--Charles
Re: Chicago Billy The Mountain [message #240188 ] Do, 16 März 2006 13:17
Chris West  
>Anyway, I don't think Chris provided conclusive evidence that the tape
>couldn't possibly be from 5/21/71 Chicago. So I agree with you that it's
>most likely from 5/21/71 Chicago, as labeled.

My suggestion was always that the date was wrong, rather than the venue,
but in any case it was only speculation. I didn't come up with anything
firm.
--
Chris West
Vorheriges Thema:Sweet Seduction
Nächstes Thema:Jean Luc Ponty Interview.....
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