|
Sprinkler Systems
Uhaul move
Lawn care
Roses and trees
Ford Parts
Chrysler Parts
Lake Powell
New IPod Touch Apps
New IPhone Apps
IPhone Apps
IPad Information
IPad Apps
Android APPS
Android Games APPS
Android Systems
Android Tablets APPS and Beyond
Smartphone Apps
Smartphone Games Apps Repair and Tools
Tablet PC
Car Sharing Car Leasing
Tabler Pc
Fly Fishing
Toyota Cars
Vacation Rentals
Stock market
NYSE
SSE Stock
Freight & Shipping News
Gluten
Lactose
Gout
My Coupon Life
Campgrounds Check
Outdoor
Kitchen Design and Redoo
Bath Remodeling
Palm Springs
Las Vegas Vacation Tipps
Lake Powell Boating
Homes for lease
Electric and green Car Blog
Pearls and diamonds
Whatsapp and forget SMS Blog, What is Whatsapp App
Solar Panel Solar Energie Sun Power Blog
|
Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » The influence of the Ring on evil creatures; was: Regarding Balrogs
| The influence of the Ring on evil creatures; was: Regarding Balrogs [message #224533] |
Di, 21 Februar 2006 22:15 |
|
"Russell Paradox" <anamga [at] pacbell.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0602201124050.23144 [at] smbnxs2.slac.stanford.edu...
> Also, the Ring could be actively trying to get away from him and is
> somehow making Frodo noticeable to enemies (this is a little of a
> stretch, because there is not much evidence that it can call or exert a
> distance influence on others rather than the Nazgul or Sauron, but then
> again, maybe it can - it is a very powerful Ring and it has a
> consciousness of its own)
We know that the Ring had a power that set upon anybody at once. It
caught Déagol, it caught Sméagol. It caused Sam to appear in a guise of
terror to Snaga and to Shagrat, and that was even against its own interest.
It was speculated that when Isildur and his followers were attacked near
the Gladden Fields so vigorously by the orcs, who absorbed very great losses
from the Númenoreans, it was because the Ring attracted them and filled them
with fury, even though they possibly knew nothing of its existence and very
probably knew nothing of its presence. They attacked once, were repulsed
with great loss, and yet attacked again in a death-defying manner,
responding unconsciously to its call.
Thus I find it quite conceivable that both the Watcher and the
orc-chieftain attacked Frodo not because they knew or guessed that he had
the Ring (nor perhaps even knowing of its existence), but because its
influence induced in them an unreasoning rage particularly against the
Ringbearer.
Of course the parallel with Isildur's fate is not proof of sameness.
Both the Watcher and the orc-chieftain might have been agents of Sauron,
under specific orders to attack any hobbit bearing an object of evil power.
This object they would have felt, that much is clear from the other
happenstances. Sauron might have described this feeling to all his agents,
and commanded them to attack any hobbit from whom such a feeling emanated.
Why Snaga and Shagrat were filled with fear rather than fury when they
met Sam bearing it is also up for debate. Perhaps the Ring filled Sauron's
slaves with both fear and fury, and in some instances the fear dominated,
while in others the fury drowned the fear? Perhaps a lone orc would be
dominated by the fear, while several of them would become so bold that the
fear lost its power? Perhaps if Shagrat had had some of his lads left when
he met Sam he would not have been afraid, but all of them would have
attacked Sam even more furiously than in the Ring's absence. The
orc-chieftain in Moria of course was essentially alone against many in the
Chamber of Mazarbul, since he had left his companions behind beyond reach of
sword. Perhaps he had gone unafraid and furious to the battle, and then in
his fury overstepped his strength in a sort of berserker rage against Frodo.
And perhaps if the same orc had stood alone, suddenly facing the power of
the Ring in Moria like Snaga did in the tower of Cirith Ungol, he would
likewise have fled with a yelp.
Brân.
|
|
|
| Re: The influence of the Ring on evil creatures; was: Regarding Balrogs [message #224542 ] |
Mi, 22 Februar 2006 02:39 |
|
"Raven" <jonlennart.beck.god [at] damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in
news:7ULKf.2360$Po4.1964 [at] news.get2net.dk:
[snip fore and aft]
> Why Snaga and Shagrat were filled with fear rather than fury
> when they
> met Sam bearing it is also up for debate.
Perhaps a clue lies in Isildur's remark to Elendur, that he had lost
his pride and could no longer command the Ring. Sam was in a mood of
fury and defiance at the time, and this could have been magnified into
a feeling of awe and terror. This explanation would fit in with the
other examples of the Ring at work, notably Frodo extracting the
promise from Gollum.
--
Cheers, ymt.
|
|
|
| Re: The influence of the Ring on evil creatures; was: Regarding Balrogs [message #224543 ] |
Mi, 22 Februar 2006 06:05 |
|
It is also interesting that the Balrog appears in Moria the same time
that the Witch-King gathers the Nine in Mordor.
|
|
|
| Re: The influence of the Ring on evil creatures; was: Regarding Balrogs [message #227076 ] |
Mi, 22 Februar 2006 14:25 |
|
stevehim [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> It is also interesting that the Balrog appears in Moria the same time
> that the Witch-King gathers the Nine in Mordor.
Within, say, 50 years. I don't think you can really say one is connected to
the other. The Balrog is not one of Sauron's henchmen. I don't recall the
exact timelines, but Balin went to Moria at some time after his little
burglary expedition with Bilbo, had a few good years there, then stopped
writing home. The Balrog was always _in_ Moria, and seemingly just took a
while to notice Balin and friends.
I don't know if there _is_ even a timeline for the gathering of the Nine -
again, some time after The Hobbit.
--
derek
|
|
|
| Re: The influence of the Ring on evil creatures; was: Regarding Balrogs [message #227081 ] |
Mi, 22 Februar 2006 21:53 |
|
Derek Broughton wrote:
> stevehim [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > It is also interesting that the Balrog appears in Moria the same time
> > that the Witch-King gathers the Nine in Mordor.
>
> Within, say, 50 years. I don't think you can really say one is connected to
> the other. The Balrog is not one of Sauron's henchmen. I don't recall the
> exact timelines, but Balin went to Moria at some time after his little
> burglary expedition with Bilbo, had a few good years there, then stopped
> writing home. The Balrog was always _in_ Moria, and seemingly just took a
> while to notice Balin and friends.
>
> I don't know if there _is_ even a timeline for the gathering of the Nine -
> again, some time after The Hobbit.
> --
> derek
No, it is in the same year, and it is in the timeline:
>From The Tale of Years:
1980 The Witch-King comes to Mordor and there gathers the Nazgul. A
Balrog appears in Moria, and slays Durin VI
This is well before the Hobbit, the Balrog appeared long before Balin
went to Moria, and there doesn't seem to be any consensus on whether
the Balrog is working for Sauron or not.
|
|
|
| Re: The influence of the Ring on evil creatures; was: Regarding Balrogs [message #227084 ] |
Do, 23 Februar 2006 02:33 |
|
In message <news:1140584716.177890.291920 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
"stevehim [at] yahoo.com" <stevehim [at] yahoo.com> enriched us with:
>
> It is also interesting that the Balrog appears in Moria the same time
> that the Witch-King gathers the Nine in Mordor.
Not really, IMO.
Thus they roused from sleep[2] a thing of terror that,
flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the
foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host
of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth.
[2] Or released from prison; it may well be that it had
already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.
You must go with either explanation. So, if the Balrog was awoken by
the malice of Sauron, then that must have preceded its release by some
measure -- possibly as much as nearly 700 years (since TA 1300 for
which the ToY entry states 'Evil things begin to multiply again. [...]
The Nazgûl reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar. [...].')
Whatever the exact timing of the awakening of the Balrog, if it was
awoken by 'the malice of Sauron', then this was /not/ a deliberate
action by Sauron, who had no idea that it was there, but because the
Balrog found the general rise in the ambient malice-levels
envigorating.
Story-externally the simultaneity of the two events is intended to
server as a 'marker' -- it marks the time when Sauron's influence began
to spread again after the set-back at the defeat of Angmar.
Of course, if the Dwarves awoke the Balrog, then we have just another
story-internal co-incidence (which is, of course, completely deliberate
by the author, but that is story-external).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
- Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
|
|
|
| Re: The influence of the Ring on evil creatures; was: Regarding Balrogs [message #227085 ] |
Do, 23 Februar 2006 03:32 |
|
Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:1140584716.177890.291920 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
> "stevehim [at] yahoo.com" <stevehim [at] yahoo.com> enriched us with:
> >
> > It is also interesting that the Balrog appears in Moria the same time
> > that the Witch-King gathers the Nine in Mordor.
>
> Not really, IMO.
>
> Thus they roused from sleep[2] a thing of terror that,
> flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the
> foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host
> of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth.
> [2] Or released from prison; it may well be that it had
> already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.
>
> You must go with either explanation. So, if the Balrog was awoken by
> the malice of Sauron, then that must have preceded its release by some
> measure -- possibly as much as nearly 700 years (since TA 1300 for
> which the ToY entry states 'Evil things begin to multiply again. [...]
> The Nazg=FBl reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar. [...].')
>
> Whatever the exact timing of the awakening of the Balrog, if it was
> awoken by 'the malice of Sauron', then this was /not/ a deliberate
> action by Sauron, who had no idea that it was there, but because the
> Balrog found the general rise in the ambient malice-levels
> envigorating.
You keep saying Sauron had no idea the Balrog was there. While I am
not syaing this is necessarily wrong, do you have a source on that?
In any case, I didn't mean to imply (and didn't think I had) that
Sauron intentionally awoke the Balrog. I cited the passage to indicate
the level of evil rising in Middle-earth (which could be argued is ALL
connected to Sauron). I'd hardly call it a coincidence that at the
same time the Nine gather a Balrog suddenly appears. I never contended
Sauron actually woke the Balrog up himself (which is kind of
ludicrous), but that it appeared in Moria at the same time the Nine
gathered.
> Story-externally the simultaneity of the two events is intended to
> server as a 'marker' -- it marks the time when Sauron's influence began
> to spread again after the set-back at the defeat of Angmar.
Yes, that is what I meant.
> Of course, if the Dwarves awoke the Balrog, then we have just another
> story-internal co-incidence (which is, of course, completely deliberate
> by the author, but that is story-external).
>
> --
> Troels Forchhammer
> Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
>
> This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
> - Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
> (Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
|
|
|
| Re: The influence of the Ring on evil creatures; was: Regarding Balrogs [message #227089 ] |
Do, 23 Februar 2006 11:39 |
|
In message
<news:1140661956.347193.41010 [at] g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
"stevehim [at] yahoo.com" <stevehim [at] yahoo.com> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
<snip>
>> Whatever the exact timing of the awakening of the Balrog, if it
>> was awoken by 'the malice of Sauron', then this was /not/ a
>> deliberate action by Sauron, who had no idea that it was there,
>> but because the Balrog found the general rise in the ambient
>> malice-levels envigorating.
>
> You keep saying Sauron had no idea the Balrog was there. While I
> am not syaing this is necessarily wrong, do you have a source on
> that?
At the time when it awoke -- I think it is unlikely that Sauron did
not know that the Balrog was there at the time whent he Company of
the Ring passed through Moria.
You have on one side the Balrog that 'flying from the ruin of
Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since
the coming of the Host of the West', and on the other side you have
Sauron, who fought with Morgoth against the Host of the West, and
finally surrendered to Eönwë etc. If there is any reasonable way for
the information about the Balrog to reach Sauron, then I can't see
it.
> In any case, I didn't mean to imply (and didn't think I had) that
> Sauron intentionally awoke the Balrog.
[...]
Ok, my misunderstanding, sorry. We agree on what you say here -- of
course it is no coincidence, although I am not completely convinced
that it is not, /story-internally/, mere coincidence that the Dwarves
released it at that time when it awoke (though, would it have been
able to release itself had the Dwarves not hit upon it by chance;
after all it was able to get in at the end of the First Age).
<snip>
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.
But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another
profound truth.
- Niels Bohr
|
|
|
| Re: The influence of the Ring on evil creatures; was: Regarding Balrogs [message #227090 ] |
Do, 23 Februar 2006 16:57 |
|
stevehim [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> I don't know if there _is_ even a timeline for the gathering of the Nine
>> - again, some time after The Hobbit.
>
> No, it is in the same year, and it is in the timeline:
>
>>From The Tale of Years:
>
> 1980 The Witch-King comes to Mordor and there gathers the Nazgul. A
> Balrog appears in Moria, and slays Durin VI
Oh, I see - you're talking about the first appearance of the Balrog. I
guess you'd be right then :-) Sorry.
--
derek
|
|
|
Gehe zu:
aktuelle Zeit: Do Mai 24 22:52:33 CEST 2012
Insgesamt benötigte Zeit, um die Seite zu erzeugen: 0,05704 Sekunden |
