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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Wizard elementary school
| Wizard elementary school [message #224230] |
Di, 28 Februar 2006 21:31 |
|
I don't recall any mention of how wizard children learn basic educational
things such as math and reading. They come to Hogwarts at 11 so if they
don't go to Muggle schools where do they go???
I can't imagine being home schooled because there skills would vary from
home to home and many would be illiterate.
What happens to wizards who are not accepted into Hogwarts? Harry's parents
had him down from his birth to attend. The school can only take so many
children.
Just curious....
Gina
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224232 ] |
Di, 28 Februar 2006 23:11 |
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Gina wrote:
> I don't recall any mention of how wizard children learn basic educational
> things such as math and reading. They come to Hogwarts at 11 so if they
> don't go to Muggle schools where do they go???
JKR has stated that wizard-born students (or halfbloods) are generally
homeschooled by their parents (or, in the case of rich families like the
Malfoys, probably tutored). Muggle-born wizards and witches usually
don't know they're going to Hogwarts until the summer before they first
start going to Hogwarts, when they receive their Hogwarts letters, and
thus are already in attendance at one of the Muggle schools.
> I can't imagine being home schooled because there skills would vary from
> home to home and many would be illiterate.
The charge that home schooling produces "many" illiterates is
essentially false. My daughter was home schooled in the first grade.
She entered second grade reading at a third-grade level.
> What happens to wizards who are not accepted into Hogwarts? Harry's parents
> had him down from his birth to attend. The school can only take so many
> children.
It's a magical castle. It can expand as need be.
I suspect that Hogwarts' only criterion is sufficient magical ability to
register on the device that detects it.
Regards,
John
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224234 ] |
Di, 28 Februar 2006 23:12 |
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Gina wrote:
> I don't recall any mention of how wizard children learn basic educational
> things such as math and reading. They come to Hogwarts at 11 so if they
> don't go to Muggle schools where do they go???
>
> I can't imagine being home schooled because there skills would vary from
> home to home and many would be illiterate.
>
> What happens to wizards who are not accepted into Hogwarts? Harry's parents
> had him down from his birth to attend. The school can only take so many
> children.
No. ANY student who has any magical abilities (no matter how minor)
are automatically accepted at Hogwarts. It has nothing to do with your
parents. Hermione Granger is muggle born, so her parents couldn't have
had her "down" on the list. Most are educated at home, the muggle
borns presumably went to school (though nowadays they can be
home-schooled as well).
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224237 ] |
Di, 28 Februar 2006 23:37 |
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John VanSickle escribió:
> The charge that home schooling produces "many" illiterates is
> essentially false. My daughter was home schooled in the first grade.
> She entered second grade reading at a third-grade level.
You know, here in Peru 'home schooling' is not accepted :(. I know I had
been happier staying at home than school. (and it's stupid to say that
at School kids learn to interact and have friends because I never really
adapted)
> I suspect that Hogwarts' only criterion is sufficient magical ability to
> register on the device that detects it.
>
I don't think Hogwarts needs a minimal requirement for the students, but
parents - or mostly of them - must be fully aware that their children at
least should know how to read if they are asked books.
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224239 ] |
Di, 28 Februar 2006 23:40 |
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My point was that the educational level of each student would be different.
Even when our children are home schooled there are guidelines that must be
met. They have to be able to show they are keeping up to the level of
children their age. We had to take our kids to the local college testing
center and they took every test there for 3 years.
I know many people home school their children and they receive excellent
educations. It just seems many wizards are not very bright when it comes to
the real world.
"John VanSickle" <evilsnack [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:EU3Nf.4659$F56.2375 [at] newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Gina wrote:
> > I don't recall any mention of how wizard children learn basic
educational
> > things such as math and reading. They come to Hogwarts at 11 so if they
> > don't go to Muggle schools where do they go???
>
> JKR has stated that wizard-born students (or halfbloods) are generally
> homeschooled by their parents (or, in the case of rich families like the
> Malfoys, probably tutored). Muggle-born wizards and witches usually
> don't know they're going to Hogwarts until the summer before they first
> start going to Hogwarts, when they receive their Hogwarts letters, and
> thus are already in attendance at one of the Muggle schools.
>
> > I can't imagine being home schooled because there skills would vary from
> > home to home and many would be illiterate.
>
> The charge that home schooling produces "many" illiterates is
> essentially false. My daughter was home schooled in the first grade.
> She entered second grade reading at a third-grade level.
>
> > What happens to wizards who are not accepted into Hogwarts? Harry's
parents
> > had him down from his birth to attend. The school can only take so many
> > children.
>
> It's a magical castle. It can expand as need be.
>
> I suspect that Hogwarts' only criterion is sufficient magical ability to
> register on the device that detects it.
>
> Regards,
> John
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224242 ] |
Di, 28 Februar 2006 23:48 |
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Gina escribió:
> My point was that the educational level of each student would be different.
> Even when our children are home schooled there are guidelines that must be
> met. They have to be able to show they are keeping up to the level of
> children their age. We had to take our kids to the local college testing
> center and they took every test there for 3 years.
Ok, but let's keep it in the Potterverse. Many muggles who had been
educated in 'normal' schools might have an advantage, this is no needed
at all at Hogwarts. They only need to know how to count and how to read.
And the potions, no matter how complicated they are, required simply
stuff like 'add half of this', 'cut third parts of that', something that
kids could learn by helping their parents in the kitchen -
cough*weasleys*cough.
> I know many people home school their children and they receive excellent
> educations. It just seems many wizards are not very bright when it comes to
> the real world.
Even if you end Hogwarts and run your own business, there is no much
maths you need: I know people who had never going to school but know
even better than I how to administrate money. They simply doesn't need
to know more to adapt to the muggle world because many of them might
never have a contact with it.
__
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224244 ] |
Mi, 01 März 2006 00:14 |
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Gina wrote:
> My point was that the educational level of each student would be different.
> Even when our children are home schooled there are guidelines that must be
> met. They have to be able to show they are keeping up to the level of
> children their age. We had to take our kids to the local college testing
> center and they took every test there for 3 years.
Unless something has changed - the educational level of students "their
age" in traditional schools varies widely. My sister was already reading
at the 12th grade level when she skipped third grade - to go to fourth!
THere are lots of students that are school taught that cannot keep up
with others their age and are left back too. (And probably more that
should be). My nephew knew the times tables through 20 - when he entered
First grade.
However - in our area - home schooled kids still have to use the same
source materials - which are provided by the school district (Ie -
books). But with the added attention a student COULD get from home
schooling - I would think they would be able to advance faster - not the
least of which is because they have less excuses for not doing the work.
>
> I know many people home school their children and they receive excellent
> educations. It just seems many wizards are not very bright when it comes to
> the real world.
Noting that most Wizards don't really live in the "real" world- or have
much contact with after age 11 - that is not a surprise. I'll bet you
had very few wizards(if any) in your college classes!
>
>
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224247 ] |
Mi, 01 März 2006 00:43 |
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"Gina" <ginab2006 [at] sbcgloba1.net> wrote in message
news:3r2Nf.16455$rL5.16109 [at] newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
> I don't recall any mention of how wizard children learn basic educational
> things such as math and reading. They come to Hogwarts at 11 so if they
> don't go to Muggle schools where do they go???
>
> I can't imagine being home schooled because there skills would vary from
> home to home and many would be illiterate.
>
> What happens to wizards who are not accepted into Hogwarts? Harry's
parents
> had him down from his birth to attend. The school can only take so many
> children.
>
> Just curious....
>
>
> Gina
>
>
Uh, Gina. All I have to say about your comments on home schooling is that
you should be VERY careful about what you say.
There was a story in Montana a few months back about some state Senator who
was trying to ban home schooling because he didn't agree with it. The
example he used was a girl who was not able to enter college until she was
21, or something like that. As it turned out, that girl's mother happened
to be in the audience. She essentiall shut that Senator up but good by
revealing that her daughter had Cerebral Paulsey and that if she had
attended public schools she MIGHT have received an eighth grade education.
Now, when it comes to testing, who is to say that a testing program does not
exist in Potterverse?
Brent
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224287 ] |
Mi, 01 März 2006 10:57 |
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Gina wrote:
> I don't recall any mention of how wizard children learn basic educational
> things such as math and reading.
You are right - this is a problem in JKR's fantasy world. She prefers
to "fanwank" home schooling - but it doesn't get into the books because
that explination wouldn't withstand close scrutiny. Some home-schooled
wizard kids would arrive at Hogwarts unable to count a dozen clockwise
turns in thier caldron, or for that matter what the hell is a
clockwise? We see no evidence of remedial classes - unless you want to
count detention with Snape.
Dave
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224292 ] |
Mi, 01 März 2006 12:26 |
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In article <1141207050.727484.254980 [at] p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
David Sueme <dsueme [at] comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Gina wrote:
>> I don't recall any mention of how wizard children learn basic educational
>> things such as math and reading.
>
>You are right - this is a problem in JKR's fantasy world.
She prefers
> Some home-schooled wizard kids would arrive at Hogwarts unable
>to count a dozen clockwise turns in thier caldron, or for that matter
>what the hell is a clockwise?
There are kids today who don't understand "clockwise" and can't read
an analog clock directly; they have to do the math to figure out
what time it is digitally.
>We see no evidence of remedial classes - unless you want to
>count detention with Snape.
Hogwarts is based on the UK public schools of the 18th and 19th century.
It was not unheard of for students to arrive unable to read, and it was
not unheard of for students to leave, aged 18, barely able to read. For
a long time, math was not taught at all. (Samuel Pepys could barely add
and subtract when he was given a government job that required
mathematical ability; he studied with a tutor to learn the times tables.)
With magic, it may be possible to have a remedial class in reading and
basic math that takes a whole ten minutes.
=Tamar
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224304 ] |
Mi, 01 März 2006 16:09 |
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Well it has always looked to me like there *is* an admittance limit, as
it seems there are 5 girls, and 5 boys, new in each house every year.
That's how many there were when Harry first went anyway and that is how
many have moved on each year. I could be reading too much into that,
but that is how it seems to me. There *are* other schools besides
Hogwarts, remember, so they do not all go to Hogwarts.
M_m
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224306 ] |
Mi, 01 März 2006 16:24 |
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Richard Eney wrote:
[[schooling]]
> With magic, it may be possible to have a remedial class in reading and
> basic math that takes a whole ten minutes.
That doesn't make much sense. If that's possible for reading and math,
why bother teaching Potions etc. the hard (normal) way?
FJ
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224321 ] |
Mi, 01 März 2006 21:12 |
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Magic_mom wrote:
> Well it has always looked to me like there *is* an admittance limit, as
> it seems there are 5 girls, and 5 boys, new in each house every year.
> That's how many there were when Harry first went anyway and that is how
> many have moved on each year. I could be reading too much into that,
> but that is how it seems to me. There *are* other schools besides
> Hogwarts, remember,
Not in England.
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224329 ] |
Mi, 01 März 2006 23:35 |
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Kish wrote:
> Magic_mom wrote:
> > Well it has always looked to me like there *is* an admittance limit, as
> > it seems there are 5 girls, and 5 boys, new in each house every year.
> > That's how many there were when Harry first went anyway and that is how
> > many have moved on each year. I could be reading too much into that,
> > but that is how it seems to me. There *are* other schools besides
> > Hogwarts, remember,
>
> Not in England.
Has it ever been specifically stated that there are no other schools of
magic in England? I could have missed it...
M_m
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #224331 ] |
Mi, 01 März 2006 23:58 |
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David Sueme wrote:
> Gina wrote:
>
>>I don't recall any mention of how wizard children learn basic educational
>>things such as math and reading.
> She prefers to "fanwank" home schooling - but it doesn't get into the
> books because that explination wouldn't withstand close scrutiny.
The only thing about homeschooling that fails to withstand close
scrutiny is the criticism from people who are against it.
> We see no evidence of remedial classes - unless you want to
> count detention with Snape.
I put it into a fanfic. The Muggle Studies teacher spends an hour each
week trying to improve the basic literacy skills of a collection of
misbehaving Gryffindors and Slytherins (including Goyle), and the
Arithmancy teacher gets to deal with them on a different night of the
week on the subject of mathematics.
The record for most time spent in Remedial Academics is held by Gregory
Goyle (three years).
As for JKR, but I suppose that it's one of those things that just isn't
important to the tale of Harry vs. Voldemort.
Regards,
John
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230458 ] |
Do, 02 März 2006 10:39 |
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FJ wrote:
> Richard Eney wrote:
> [[schooling]]
> > With magic, it may be possible to have a remedial class in reading and
> > basic math that takes a whole ten minutes.
>
> That doesn't make much sense. If that's possible for reading and math,
> why bother teaching Potions etc. the hard (normal) way?
That is because Potions is so mucvcvh hardfer than quadfraticv
equations.
I cvut my finger sharpening a cheap knife this evening. The bandfage
makes it hardf to type.
Trroels couldf probably figure out whicvh finger I cut, but none of the
rest of you are that smart.
DEave
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230475 ] |
Do, 02 März 2006 15:01 |
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> > I can't imagine being home schooled because there skills would vary from
> > home to home and many would be illiterate.
>
> The charge that home schooling produces "many" illiterates is
> essentially false. My daughter was home schooled in the first grade.
> She entered second grade reading at a third-grade level.
Children whose parents are invovlved in their education almost always
do better acedemically then children who's parents aren't involved.
Home schooled children in America (and I assume England and the rest of
western europe) are home schooled because their parents want them to be
home schooled.
There are many parents who believe that its the schools business to
teach childen, not them. My wife is a teacher and I'm training to be
one and judging by some of the parents we've talked too, if education
was left to parents, some of the children would arrive at Hogworts,
unable to read, write, tell time, or sit still in class. There are
kids in the U.S. who get to kindergarten, who can't even put on their
own clothes.
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230504 ] |
Do, 02 März 2006 22:31 |
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David Sueme wrote:
> That is because Potions is so mucvcvh hardfer than quadfraticv
> equations.
>
> I cvut my finger sharpening a cheap knife this evening. The bandfage
> makes it hardf to type.
>
> Trroels couldf probably figure out whicvh finger I cut, but none of the
> rest of you are that smart.
If you're a touch-typist, the middle finger on your left hand.
Cindy Hamilton
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230514 ] |
Do, 02 März 2006 23:16 |
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Cindy Hamilton escribió:
> David Sueme wrote:
>
>> That is because Potions is so mucvcvh hardfer than quadfraticv
>> equations.
>>
>> I cvut my finger sharpening a cheap knife this evening. The bandfage
>> makes it hardf to type.
>>
>> Trroels couldf probably figure out whicvh finger I cut, but none of the
>> rest of you are that smart.
>
> If you're a touch-typist, the middle finger on your left hand.
No excuse, David. I've had my fingers cut several times by the time I
studied in the Architecture school and my typing was always the same.
(And band-aids size is never a problem to me because my fingers are
quite small :) )
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230590 ] |
Fr, 03 März 2006 09:08 |
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In article <1141226680.712018.174170 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
FJ <frans_jonkers [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Richard Eney wrote:
>[[schooling]]
>> With magic, it may be possible to have a remedial class in reading and
>> basic math that takes a whole ten minutes.
>
>That doesn't make much sense. If that's possible for reading and math,
>why bother teaching Potions etc. the hard (normal) way?
For the first five years, Potions involves immense amounts of memorization.
It also involves control of fires, and other basic cooking skills such as
the ability to cut up or grind ingredients to a size that will work with the
recipe. It has a lot in common with chemistry.
Basic math involves a fairly small number of operations, and if a memory
can be faked and a dream inserted, then the times table ought to be insertable.
A mostly-permanent memory block implies that other mental magic can be made
nearly permanent too, so the times table should at least last through school.
Reading is slightly more complex but the basic alphabet sound relationships
are fairly standard. With a spell to insert phonics and a spell-check wand,
Crabbe and Goyle need not have learned to spell perfectly. As long as they
can read the text aloud (or have someone read it to them), all they need to
do is remember what it said.
=Tamar
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230592 ] |
Fr, 03 März 2006 09:31 |
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scenario_dave wrote:
> Home schooled children in America (and I assume England and the rest of
> western europe) are home schooled because their parents want them to be
> home schooled.
Let's be realistic. Probably a majority of US home-schooled children
are home-schooled because the parents want thier children to have a
belief in the literal truth of the biblical creation account(s) in
Genesis. They are convinced that high-school biology class will
condemn their tempt their children into doubt and condemn them to
hell's fires.
You can easily prove my point. Google "home schooling" and click on a
few links. Within the first half-dozen you will find a page of links
to resources for home-schooling "creation science" or perhaps the same
stuff in a new bottle - intelligent design.
Dave
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230593 ] |
Fr, 03 März 2006 09:36 |
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Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> David Sueme wrote:
>
> > That is because Potions is so mucvcvh hardfer than quadfraticv
> > equations.
> >
> > I cvut my finger sharpening a cheap knife this evening. The bandfage
> > makes it hardf to type.
> >
> > Trroels couldf probably figure out whicvh finger I cut, but none of the
> > rest of you are that smart.
>
> If you're a touch-typist, the middle finger on your left hand.
I stand corrected. So far, fingertip is healing well
Dave
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230594 ] |
Fr, 03 März 2006 09:40 |
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drusilla wrote:
> No excuse, David. I've had my fingers cut several times by the time I
> studied in the Architecture school and my typing was always the same.
> (And band-aids size is never a problem to me because my fingers are
> quite small :) )
Band-aids? At the point I was typing that, the bandage was a paper
towel. I did get the knife pretty sharp, judging from the laceration.
Dave
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230615 ] |
Fr, 03 März 2006 16:13 |
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Richard Eney wrote:
> In article <1141226680.712018.174170 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> FJ <frans_jonkers [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >Richard Eney wrote:
> >[[schooling]]
> >> With magic, it may be possible to have a remedial class in reading and
> >> basic math that takes a whole ten minutes.
> >
> >That doesn't make much sense. If that's possible for reading and math,
> >why bother teaching Potions etc. the hard (normal) way?
>
> For the first five years, Potions involves immense amounts of memorization.
> It also involves control of fires, and other basic cooking skills such as
> the ability to cut up or grind ingredients to a size that will work with the
> recipe. It has a lot in common with chemistry.
>
> Basic math involves a fairly small number of operations, and if a memory
> can be faked and a dream inserted, then the times table ought to be insertable.
> A mostly-permanent memory block implies that other mental magic can be made
> nearly permanent too, so the times table should at least last through school.
>
> Reading is slightly more complex but the basic alphabet sound relationships
> are fairly standard. With a spell to insert phonics and a spell-check wand,
> Crabbe and Goyle need not have learned to spell perfectly. As long as they
> can read the text aloud (or have someone read it to them), all they need to
> do is remember what it said.
You're kidding, right?
Your comparison with chemistry is quite accurate I suppose, so here's
the question: would it be harder (i.e. take more time) to
a) teach a kid who can't read reading and writing
b) teach a kid who can read and do arithmetic chemistry
I'd vote (a), but at the very least the amount of time is in the same
order of magnitude.
FJ
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230628 ] |
Fr, 03 März 2006 17:13 |
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David Sueme escribió:
> drusilla wrote:
>
>> No excuse, David. I've had my fingers cut several times by the time I
>> studied in the Architecture school and my typing was always the same.
>> (And band-aids size is never a problem to me because my fingers are
>> quite small :) )
>
> Band-aids? At the point I was typing that, the bandage was a paper
> towel. I did get the knife pretty sharp, judging from the laceration.
>
>
> Dave
>
So, you cut yourself, you were apparently severely hurt and then, you
kept posting.... That's a fan...
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230631 ] |
Fr, 03 März 2006 18:11 |
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> > Home schooled children in America (and I assume England and the rest of
> > western europe) are home schooled because their parents want them to be
> > home schooled.
>
> Let's be realistic. Probably a majority of US home-schooled children
> are home-schooled because the parents want thier children to have a
> belief in the literal truth of the biblical creation account(s) in
> Genesis. They are convinced that high-school biology class will
> condemn their tempt their children into doubt and condemn them to
> hell's fires.
>
You're probably right about that. I was just pointing out that
children who are home educated by a parent who is really motivated to
home educate can get a very good education but home education by
parents who really couldn't care less won't get much of an education.
For people who really believe in them, hell's fires are a really good
motivator.
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230711 ] |
Sa, 04 März 2006 09:38 |
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scenario_dave wrote:
> For people who really believe in them, hell's fires are a really good
> motivator.
Perhaps so, but I know of no verses in the babble that endorse calculus
as a way to avoid hell's fires. So the motivation isn't toward an
education that is useful in the "temporal" world, e.g., the here and
now.
Dave
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230713 ] |
Sa, 04 März 2006 09:42 |
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drusilla wrote:
> So, you cut yourself, you were apparently severely hurt and then, you
> kept posting.... That's a fan...
U.S. Marine Corps - 1972-76.
Sergeant Dave
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230714 ] |
Sa, 04 März 2006 09:49 |
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FJ wrote:
here's
> the question: would it be harder (i.e. take more time) to
> a) teach a kid who can't read reading and writing
> b) teach a kid who can read and do arithmetic chemistry
Yer askin' the wrong question here. How do you teach math or chemistry
unless basic language skills are there? "Three" or "3" or " III " or "
.... " doesn't mean anything until you get to "grunt grunt grunt" and
point to the bumps on the top of Toon's little head.
Dave
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230802 ] |
So, 05 März 2006 03:31 |
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"Magic_mom" <SpencerTL [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141225782.327118.176280 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> Well it has always looked to me like there *is* an admittance limit, as
> it seems there are 5 girls, and 5 boys, new in each house every year.
> That's how many there were when Harry first went anyway and that is how
> many have moved on each year. I could be reading too much into that,
> but that is how it seems to me. There *are* other schools besides
> Hogwarts, remember, so they do not all go to Hogwarts.
>
> M_m
>
I can't honestly believe JKR is sitting around thinking about Hogwart's
admittance regulations. Instead, she just adds fifteen girls and fifteen
boys each year. That's fair, and that's good enough, as far as the greater
story goes.
--
Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230804 ] |
So, 05 März 2006 03:39 |
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"David Sueme" <dsueme [at] comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1141374969.851512.158870 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>> David Sueme wrote:
>>
>> > That is because Potions is so mucvcvh hardfer than quadfraticv
>> > equations.
>> >
>> > I cvut my finger sharpening a cheap knife this evening. The bandfage
>> > makes it hardf to type.
>> >
>> > Trroels couldf probably figure out whicvh finger I cut, but none of the
>> > rest of you are that smart.
>>
>> If you're a touch-typist, the middle finger on your left hand.
>
> I stand corrected. So far, fingertip is healing well
>
> Dave
>
"cvut" "mucvcvh" "quadfraticv" As a touch typist, with one's fingers in the
home position, when one reaches down with the left middle finger to depress
the "c" key, one is much closer to the "x" than the "v". Thus the
combination you've displayed is unlikely. I suppose a small keyboard, such
as that found on small laptops, could also be to blame.
--
Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230828 ] |
So, 05 März 2006 10:55 |
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Matt Clara wrote:
> >> If you're a touch-typist, the middle finger on your left hand.
> >
> > I stand corrected. So far, fingertip is healing well
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
> "cvut" "mucvcvh" "quadfraticv" As a touch typist, with one's fingers in the
> home position, when one reaches down with the left middle finger to depress
> the "c" key, one is much closer to the "x" than the "v". Thus the
> combination you've displayed is unlikely. I suppose a small keyboard, such
> as that found on small laptops, could also be to blame.
It's an old Microsoft "ergonomic" (split keypad) keyboard and the "r"
key is beginning to stick. I know I have had the thing for 10 years,
and possibly 15. I think it has lasted through three different
computers.
Viking kings were buried with thier longships. I intend to be buried
with my Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard.
Dave
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230875 ] |
So, 05 März 2006 20:35 |
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David Sueme escribió:
> Matt Clara wrote:
>
>>>> If you're a touch-typist, the middle finger on your left hand.
>>> I stand corrected. So far, fingertip is healing well
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>> "cvut" "mucvcvh" "quadfraticv" As a touch typist, with one's fingers in the
>> home position, when one reaches down with the left middle finger to depress
>> the "c" key, one is much closer to the "x" than the "v". Thus the
>> combination you've displayed is unlikely. I suppose a small keyboard, such
>> as that found on small laptops, could also be to blame.
>
> It's an old Microsoft "ergonomic" (split keypad) keyboard and the "r"
> key is beginning to stick. I know I have had the thing for 10 years,
> and possibly 15. I think it has lasted through three different
> computers.
WOW. I think I've changed mine like 7 times since 1997...
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230931 ] |
Mo, 06 März 2006 09:48 |
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In article <1141398831.354340.310380 [at] z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
FJ <frans_jonkers [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Richard Eney wrote:
>> FJ <frans_jonkers [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> >Richard Eney wrote:
>> >[[schooling]]
>> >> With magic, it may be possible to have a remedial class in reading and
>> >> basic math that takes a whole ten minutes.
>> >
>> >That doesn't make much sense. If that's possible for reading and math,
>> >why bother teaching Potions etc. the hard (normal) way?
<snip>
>> Reading is slightly more complex but the basic alphabet sound relationships
>> are fairly standard. With a spell to insert phonics and a spell-check wand,
>> Crabbe and Goyle need not have learned to spell perfectly. As long as they
>> can read the text aloud (or have someone read it to them), all they need to
>> do is remember what it said.
>
>You're kidding, right?
>Your comparison with chemistry is quite accurate I suppose, so here's
>the question: would it be harder (i.e. take more time) to
>a) teach a kid who can't read reading and writing
>b) teach a kid who can read and do arithmetic chemistry
>
>I'd vote (a), but at the very least the amount of time is in the same
>order of magnitude.
Actually, I've read a first-person account by a kid who didn't learn to read
until he was twelve (lived in an isolated area and parents didn't think it
was important, if I recall correctly). It took him about a week. I wish I
could remember the name of the book.
It has been said that in a modern city with all the street signs and window
displays, it would take serious effort to prevent a normal child from learning
to read even without direct teaching.
Chemistry by a recipe (the way early Potions is taught) is no harder than
cooking stew, as long as the recipe is accurate. Real chemistry requires
learning and understanding molecular structures and how they work together,
which is quite a lot more complex than reading or ordinary math.
=Tamar
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230947 ] |
Mo, 06 März 2006 10:33 |
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drusilla wrote:
an old Microsoft "ergonomic" (split keypad) keyboard and the "r"
> > key is beginning to stick. I know I have had the thing for 10 years,
> > and possibly 15. I think it has lasted through three different
> > computers.
>
> WOW. I think I've changed mine like 7 times since 1997...
I am so glad I did not ask you to marry me.
Dave
:)
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230948 ] |
Mo, 06 März 2006 10:43 |
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Richard Eney wrote:
> It has been said that in a modern city with all the street signs and window
> displays, it would take serious effort to prevent a normal child from learning
> to read even without direct teaching.
Oh yeah, you damned fool! Sorry, but I just cannot be polite in the
face of this kind of foolishness. I live 40 miles from a city where
over a million men think the word "woman" is spelled "ho". And the
Marshall Field's department store is world-famous for the excellence of
it's Christmas window displays.
OK, _pronounced_ "ho". I'm not sure them gang-bangers can spell
anything.
Dave
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230973 ] |
Mo, 06 März 2006 19:01 |
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David Sueme wrote:
> > the question: would it be harder (i.e. take more time) to
> > a) teach a kid who can't read reading and writing
> > b) teach a kid who can read and do arithmetic chemistry
>
> Yer askin' the wrong question here. How do you teach math or chemistry
> unless basic language skills are there? "Three" or "3" or " III " or "
> ... " doesn't mean anything until you get to "grunt grunt grunt" and
> point to the bumps on the top of Toon's little head.
I'm not sure the assumption is that the kid cannot *speak*--only that
the kid cannot read (or write).
To be honest, the question is too vague to answer. What kind of
chemistry? What kind of reading or writing? Lots of kids technically
can read and write, but put 'em in a paper bag and they'd still be
there a week later. That speaks more to their communication skills
than the technical act of reading and writing, though.
Supposing a boy to be sharp and a native English speaker, he could be
taught to read or write, in the decoding sense, within a very short
period of time. Probably a few days. There would be numerous mistakes,
as English orthography is rather irregular. It would be much easier in
a more phonetically regular language, like Spanish. Once we get past
adolescence, we might have a problem with letter retention.
It would take much longer than that, I think, to attain what I consider
to be a reasonable comprehension of chemistry. Just so we're clear on
the matter, here's what I think would be entailed:
* Understand that matter is made of atoms, and that atoms are
in turn made up of a nucleus of protons and neutrons, surrounded
by electrons. Understand that what differentiates the elements
is the number of protons--the atomic number.
* Understand how covalent and ionic bonds form, the notion of
valence, and therefore why the periodic table of elements is
arranged the way it is.
* Understand the conservation of mass (to first order, mass is
conserved in chemical reactions), and its importance in figuring
out how chemical reactions work.
* Know what exothermic and endothermic reactions are, and use that
to figure out which reactions go spontaneously under various
conditions.
* Understand the notion of heat capacity and the states of matter
(solid, liquid, gas, plasma, etc), and how transitions are
affected by both temperature and pressure. Be able to determine,
experimentally, a substance's heat of fusion and heat of
vaporization.
* Know what acids and bases are, and be able to conduct an
acid-base titration (and know what's going on at the same time).
* Have a basic understanding of physics, especially radiation and
electro-magnetism (which go hand in hand, of course).
I'm probably leaving stuff out, but that's a pretty basic list. I have
to emphasize that I doubt that most U.S. high-school students graduate
with this level of understanding of chemistry. To be fair, they may
very well have it at some point during the course, but they're not
encouraged to remember it for more than about a month. In particular,
there's too much emphasis on being able to calculate certain things.
(It's easy to figure out why--it's much easier to test students on their
calculation skills.) Not to say that isn't important, but the general
principles, however imprecise they may be upon closer inspection, are
even more important, in my opinion.
That's probably more than anyone really wanted to know about that, but
the point is that the *technical* act of reading and writing is only the
top of the iceberg; the submerged part, the ability to communicate, is
much richer and harder to learn--harder even than the rudiments of
chemistry. Usenet is evidence par excellence that many still haven't
learned it.
At any rate, first year at Hogwarts (age about 11) is about as late as
I'd want to teach someone who already knew how to speak and listen, how
to read and write, especially given that they have other subjects to
worry about. Much later than that, and their mental flexibility is
greatly decreased. If you've ever tried to learn Japanese late in life,
and had to worry about keeping the kana straight, I think you can
understand that. I bet a kid of eight could learn those much faster.
--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
(Location of these pages soon to change. Stay tuned for updates.)
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230995 ] |
Mo, 06 März 2006 21:28 |
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David Sueme escribió:
> drusilla wrote:
>
> an old Microsoft "ergonomic" (split keypad) keyboard and the "r"
>>> key is beginning to stick. I know I have had the thing for 10 years,
>>> and possibly 15. I think it has lasted through three different
>>> computers.
>> WOW. I think I've changed mine like 7 times since 1997...
>
> I am so glad I did not ask you to marry me.
>
> Dave
> :)
No thanks. I've already been engaged to a guy who criticised to much the
way I treat my stuff, as he were my father, and that also thought he was
arrogant enough to think he was smarter than the average, when he was
not... we ended up hating each other...
Good sex, though :)
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #230997 ] |
Mo, 06 März 2006 21:37 |
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Richard Eney wrote:
> In article <1141398831.354340.310380 [at] z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> FJ <frans_jonkers [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >[[schooling]]
> >> >> With magic, it may be possible to have a remedial class in reading and
> >> >> basic math that takes a whole ten minutes.
> >> >
> >> >That doesn't make much sense. If that's possible for reading and math,
> >> >why bother teaching Potions etc. the hard (normal) way?
> <snip>
>
> >> Reading is slightly more complex but the basic alphabet sound relationships
> >> are fairly standard. With a spell to insert phonics and a spell-check wand,
> >> Crabbe and Goyle need not have learned to spell perfectly. As long as they
> >> can read the text aloud (or have someone read it to them), all they need to
> >> do is remember what it said.
> >
> >You're kidding, right?
> >Your comparison with chemistry is quite accurate I suppose, so here's
> >the question: would it be harder (i.e. take more time) to
> >a) teach a kid who can't read reading and writing
> >b) teach a kid who can read and do arithmetic chemistry
> >
> >I'd vote (a), but at the very least the amount of time is in the same
> >order of magnitude.
>
> Actually, I've read a first-person account by a kid who didn't learn to read
> until he was twelve (lived in an isolated area and parents didn't think it
> was important, if I recall correctly). It took him about a week. I wish I
> could remember the name of the book.
>
> It has been said that in a modern city with all the street signs and window
> displays, it would take serious effort to prevent a normal child from learning
> to read even without direct teaching.
>
> Chemistry by a recipe (the way early Potions is taught) is no harder than
> cooking stew, as long as the recipe is accurate. Real chemistry requires
> learning and understanding molecular structures and how they work together,
> which is quite a lot more complex than reading or ordinary math.
It's only harder if you think you should know the underlying structures
of chemistry, but not of language. Dave is right: my question is stated
the wrong way. Let me try to be clearer.
Why is it that such a large part of education during the first five,
six years is spent on teaching kids reading, writing and arithmetic?
Surely that wouldn't be a good idea if you can learn reading, writing
and basic math in a few weeks?
These kids can't get away with just basically knowing how to read and
write. They have to read an incredible amount of books and write lots
of essays. If they struggle with reading and writing, they would take
forever.
FJ
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| Re: Wizard elementary school [message #231001 ] |
Mo, 06 März 2006 21:54 |
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Brian Tung wrote:
[[what's harder; reading/writing or chemistry]]
> To be honest, the question is too vague to answer.
You're right, but really the main point was to illustrate that it is
unlikely that a spell exists to learn kids to learn and write if
similar techniques aren't applied during further schooling at Hogwarts
in subjects such as Potions.
> Supposing a boy to be sharp and a native English speaker, he could be
> taught to read or write, in the decoding sense, within a very short
> period of time. Probably a few days.
Sure, but real understanding of complicated texts? And ability to
formulate themselves? This is already assuming a good basic verbal
control of the language, something which also (partly) needs to be
taught...
[[Chemistry requirements]]
You know, I have had Chemistry for four years, at a maximum of 3 hours
a week and I still know most of it. It's really not that hard.
Thanks for the long and well argumented post!
FJ
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