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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » JKRˇs site poll
JKRˇs site poll [message #223407] Mi, 22 Februar 2006 06:48
drusilla  
"What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?

I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that
I'd have voted for… but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is
what you want to know!

When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it
another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the
moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to
know the hidden information, but nobody else.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it"
(Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
– not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the
secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the
information."(*)

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_poll.cfm

(*) Meaning, even if Dumbledore indeed told the Dursleys about GP12,
they can't tell others.
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Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223420 ] Mi, 22 Februar 2006 10:41
Toon  
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 00:48:24 -0500, drusilla
<gammanormids*erasethis* [at] gmail.com> wrote:

>"What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?
>
>I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that
>I'd have voted for… but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is
>what you want to know!
>
>When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it
>another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the
>moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to
>know the hidden information, but nobody else.
>
>Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is
>
>"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
>secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
>the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
>find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it"
>(Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)
>
>In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
>the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
>our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
>– not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the
>secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
>Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
>able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
>ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
>directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the
>information."(*)
>
>http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_poll.cfm
>
>(*) Meaning, even if Dumbledore indeed told the Dursleys about GP12,
>they can't tell others.
>*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
>*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***


So, if the order reclaimed 12GP after Harry proved the rightful Master
Of The House, he can now release Kreacher, because Bellatrix can't
find it.

So, if you truly wanted to protect a secret, and are evil, you'd kill
your secret keeper. Interetsing. Then use the death to make a
horcux.

Wasn't there a more pressing question that deserved to be answered
over this fluff (which is bound to come up early Book7 anyway)?
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223428 ] Mi, 22 Februar 2006 11:05
Kami  
Toon wrote:

> So, if the order reclaimed 12GP after Harry proved the rightful
Master
> Of The House, he can now release Kreacher, because Bellatrix can't
> find it.
>
> So, if you truly wanted to protect a secret, and are evil, you'd kill
> your secret keeper. Interetsing. Then use the death to make a
> horcux.
>
> Wasn't there a more pressing question that deserved to be answered
> over this fluff (which is bound to come up early Book7 anyway)?

Not exactly; I think that it does mean that Kreacher (and the Dursleys)
aren't able to tell the location of 12GP if they wanted to. OTOH, as we
know from OOTP, Harry can't really free Kreacher because he poses too
great a risk to the Order. He would still be a potential liability
because of the information that he could spill -- that he hasn't been
specifically ordered not to, that is. Of course, since Snape knew the
location of HQ before the secret keeper died, Bellatrix may not have to
worry about not being able to get the info out of Kreacher....

I was disappointed that this question won the poll. I had been hoping
for an anwswer to the one regarding the destruction of Horcruxes. I
believe the question was: Does the destruction of a Horcrux involve
more than just the destruction of the object?
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223432 ] Mi, 22 Februar 2006 12:22
Kish  
Toon wrote:

> Wasn't there a more pressing question that deserved to be answered
> over this fluff (which is bound to come up early Book7 anyway)?

I wouldn't count on it ever being answered in book 7.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223504 ] Do, 23 Februar 2006 03:35
John VanSickle  
Toon wrote:

> So, if you truly wanted to protect a secret, and are evil, you'd kill
> your secret keeper. Interetsing. Then use the death to make a
> horcux.

And sell the body on Ebay!

Regards,
John
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223520 ] Do, 23 Februar 2006 10:02
Toon  
On 22 Feb 2006 02:05:14 -0800, "Kami" <Slytherin-witch [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Toon wrote:
>
> > So, if the order reclaimed 12GP after Harry proved the rightful
>Master
>> Of The House, he can now release Kreacher, because Bellatrix can't
>> find it.
>>
>> So, if you truly wanted to protect a secret, and are evil, you'd kill
>> your secret keeper. Interetsing. Then use the death to make a
>> horcux.
>>
>> Wasn't there a more pressing question that deserved to be answered
>> over this fluff (which is bound to come up early Book7 anyway)?
>
>Not exactly; I think that it does mean that Kreacher (and the Dursleys)
>aren't able to tell the location of 12GP if they wanted to. OTOH, as we
>know from OOTP, Harry can't really free Kreacher because he poses too
>great a risk to the Order. He would still be a potential liability
>because of the information that he could spill -- that he hasn't been
>specifically ordered not to, that is. Of course, since Snape knew the
>location of HQ before the secret keeper died, Bellatrix may not have to
>worry about not being able to get the info out of Kreacher....

Well, as Harry owns him, he might give a final order of never reveal
my secrets even upon release. Winky still keeps the Crouch secrets,
and she's technically under no obligation than loyalty. Kreacer would
spill, and it was Sirus' commands that prevented him, minus the few
loopholes he found. Harry should therefore, be able to order eternal
silence.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223521 ] Do, 23 Februar 2006 10:02
Toon  
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 02:35:21 GMT, John VanSickle
<evilsnack [at] earthlink.net> wrote:

>Toon wrote:
>
>> So, if you truly wanted to protect a secret, and are evil, you'd kill
>> your secret keeper. Interetsing. Then use the death to make a
>> horcux.
>
>And sell the body on Ebay!
>
>Regards,
>John

I don't think you can. some countries object to selling your body to
German Cannibals.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223620 ] Fr, 24 Februar 2006 06:41
tbarry22  
How? If Harry no longer owns him, he no longer has to keep his
silence. How would it be enforced? Is Harry going to sue him?
Kreacher had no choice but to hold his tongue, he was owned by Sirius.
Once he is given clothes, he no longer has to obey his former master.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223625 ] Fr, 24 Februar 2006 08:21
Kami  
tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> How? If Harry no longer owns him, he no longer has to keep his
> silence. How would it be enforced? Is Harry going to sue him?
> Kreacher had no choice but to hold his tongue, he was owned by Sirius.
> Once he is given clothes, he no longer has to obey his former master.

Since when does Harry no longer own Kreacher? I don't recall Harry ever
presenting Kreacher with clothes. The way I remember it, Harry only
took DD's suggestion and ordered Kreacher to work in the kitchens at
Hogwarts; so that the other house-elves could keep an eye on him, when
it became clear that he had inherited him from Sirius. Harry was still
his owner and able to give him orders, (which he did in HBP, Ch. 19 -
Elf Tails) and Kreacher complied and gave him the report on Draco that
he had requested (HBP, Ch. 21 -The Unknowable Room) even though he was
quite reluctant to do so.

I'm not exactly clear on how stictly enforced the rules of "their kind"
are, but I still don't trust Kreacher not to find a way to betray
Harry/The Order in some way. I'm sure that Harry will order him not to
spill his secrets, but we know that Kreacher would prefer to be the
servant of Draco or Bellatrix and I'm sure he will attempt to help them
in any way that he can. He has already tried to find a loophole that
would allow him a way around one of Harry's orders. I doubt that he is
going to give up in that regard and become loyal to Harry. Dobby
punished himself because "he nearly spoke ill of his family" but
Kreacher was certainly able to insult Harry; it was what led to the
Dobby vs. Kreacher face off. So, who knows?

Maybe this is just me seeing the "Kreacher problem" from a Slytherin
P.O.V. but short of following in the tradition that Sirius's Aunt
Elladora set forth - of beheading house-elves whose service was no
longer up to par - I really don't see how Harry is going to prevent
Kreacher from being responsible for another leak of information (that
may lead to further danger to himself and the Order). Harry is bound to
slip up and fail to think of every possible way that Kreacher can
betray him, and then in turn to specifically forbid him from doing so.
His very clever uncle overlooked the value of information that he
thought was of no consequence and we know how that turned out. Frankly,
in light of what Kreacher has already done, I can't imagine why Harry
would risk him doing any further damage.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223630 ] Fr, 24 Februar 2006 10:28
Kami  
tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> How? If Harry no longer owns him, he no longer has to keep his
> silence. How would it be enforced? Is Harry going to sue him?
> Kreacher had no choice but to hold his tongue, he was owned by Sirius.
> Once he is given clothes, he no longer has to obey his former master.

Exactly. And while I'm not exactly clear on how stictly enforced the
rules of "their kind"
are, I still don't trust Kreacher not to find a way to betray
Harry/The Order in some way. I'm sure that Harry will order him not to
spill his secrets, but we know that Kreacher would prefer to be the
servant of Draco or Bellatrix and I'm sure he will attempt to help them

in any way that he can. He has already tried to find a loophole that
would allow him a way around one of Harry's orders. I doubt that he is
going to give up in that regard and become loyal to Harry. Dobby
punished himself because "he nearly spoke ill of his family" but
Kreacher was certainly able to insult Harry; it was what led to the
Dobby vs. Kreacher face off. So, who knows?

Maybe this is just me seeing the "Kreacher problem" from a Slytherin
P.O.V. but short of following in the tradition that Sirius's Aunt
Elladora set forth - of beheading house-elves whose service was no
longer up to par - I really don't see how Harry is going to prevent
Kreacher from being responsible for another leak of information (that
may lead to further danger to himself and the Order). Harry is bound to
slip up and fail to think of every possible way that Kreacher can
betray him, and then in turn to specifically forbid him from doing so.
His very clever uncle overlooked the value of information that he
thought was of no consequence and we know how that turned out. Frankly,
in light of what Kreacher has already done, I can't imagine why Harry
would risk him doing any further damage.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223773 ] Sa, 25 Februar 2006 10:36
Toon  
On 24 Feb 2006 01:28:42 -0800, "Kami" <Slytherin-witch [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:

>in any way that he can. He has already tried to find a loophole that
>would allow him a way around one of Harry's orders. I doubt that he is
>going to give up in that regard and become loyal to Harry. Dobby
>punished himself because "he nearly spoke ill of his family" but
>Kreacher was certainly able to insult Harry; it was what led to the
>Dobby vs. Kreacher face off. So, who knows?

Perhaps Lucius ordered Dobby to hurt himself as punishment for
badmouthing them, whereas the Blakcs never gave such an order to
Kreacher. Notice out of the 4 Hosue Elves we know about, Dobby is the
only one who ever had to punish himself.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223885 ] So, 26 Februar 2006 01:00
Kami  
Toon wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2006 01:28:42 -0800, "Kami" <Slytherin-witch [at] hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >in any way that he can. He has already tried to find a loophole that
> >would allow him a way around one of Harry's orders. I doubt that he is
> >going to give up in that regard and become loyal to Harry. Dobby
> >punished himself because "he nearly spoke ill of his family" but
> >Kreacher was certainly able to insult Harry; it was what led to the
> >Dobby vs. Kreacher face off. So, who knows?
>
> Perhaps Lucius ordered Dobby to hurt himself as punishment for
> badmouthing them, whereas the Blakcs never gave such an order to
> Kreacher. Notice out of the 4 Hosue Elves we know about, Dobby is the
> only one who ever had to punish himself.

Well, I don't disagree that it certainly seems like something that
Lucius would order, but I don't think the other house elves give us any
indication either way. Kreacher is the only example (besides Dobby)
that has been shown to insult his master/family. Winky and Hokey were
both loyal and obedient house elves and would therefore not be required
to punish themselves. BTW, the Black family seem like the sort that
would give their house elf the same kind of order (if that is what
Lucius had done).
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223927 ] So, 26 Februar 2006 10:34
Toon  
On 25 Feb 2006 16:00:10 -0800, "Kami" <Slytherin-witch [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>Toon wrote:
>> On 24 Feb 2006 01:28:42 -0800, "Kami" <Slytherin-witch [at] hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >in any way that he can. He has already tried to find a loophole that
>> >would allow him a way around one of Harry's orders. I doubt that he is
>> >going to give up in that regard and become loyal to Harry. Dobby
>> >punished himself because "he nearly spoke ill of his family" but
>> >Kreacher was certainly able to insult Harry; it was what led to the
>> >Dobby vs. Kreacher face off. So, who knows?
>>
>> Perhaps Lucius ordered Dobby to hurt himself as punishment for
>> badmouthing them, whereas the Blakcs never gave such an order to
>> Kreacher. Notice out of the 4 Hosue Elves we know about, Dobby is the
>> only one who ever had to punish himself.
>
>Well, I don't disagree that it certainly seems like something that
>Lucius would order, but I don't think the other house elves give us any
>indication either way. Kreacher is the only example (besides Dobby)
>that has been shown to insult his master/family. Winky and Hokey were
>both loyal and obedient house elves and would therefore not be required
>to punish themselves. BTW, the Black family seem like the sort that
>would give their house elf the same kind of order (if that is what
>Lucius had done).

Perhaps they lifted the ban only for blood traitors. And perhaps
Winky and Hoky were ordered not to, but find a more suitable and
humane punishment.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #223936 ] So, 26 Februar 2006 11:27
Kami  
Toon wrote:

> Perhaps they lifted the ban only for blood traitors. And perhaps
> Winky and Hoky were ordered not to, but find a more suitable and
> humane punishment.

LoL; that is a possibility that hadn't occured to me, but now that you
mention it it does seem quite likely. Dark wizard families probably
wouldn't want a house elf punished for putting Muggles, Mudbloods,
and/or Blood Traitors down. In fact, it would probably earn their house
elves higher regard with them....
Re: JKRˇssite poll [message #224153 ] Di, 28 Februar 2006 04:50
richard e white  
Toon wrote:

> On 24 Feb 2006 01:28:42 -0800, "Kami" <Slytherin-witch [at] hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >in any way that he can. He has already tried to find a loophole that
> >would allow him a way around one of Harry's orders. I doubt that he is
> >going to give up in that regard and become loyal to Harry. Dobby
> >punished himself because "he nearly spoke ill of his family" but
> >Kreacher was certainly able to insult Harry; it was what led to the
> >Dobby vs. Kreacher face off. So, who knows?
>
> Perhaps Lucius ordered Dobby to hurt himself as punishment for
> badmouthing them, whereas the Blakcs never gave such an order to
> Kreacher. Notice out of the 4 Hosue Elves we know about, Dobby is the
> only one who ever had to punish himself.

I think you should look at book 5 where Harry is trying to find out from
creature where black is. This is after creature went to Draco's famly and
after he hert buckbeak to get black out of the way. If you look at that
spot I think you will see a hint that creature did the same as dobby. The
bandages on creatures hands are what I am getting at. As they where never
mentioned as to how Creature got them I rather think it was a hint that
creature was not doing as he should. Just like dobby did before Harry
helped to free him.


--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #224154 ] Di, 28 Februar 2006 05:03
drusilla  
richard e white escribió:
> Toon wrote:
>
>> On 24 Feb 2006 01:28:42 -0800, "Kami" <Slytherin-witch [at] hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> in any way that he can. He has already tried to find a loophole that
>>> would allow him a way around one of Harry's orders. I doubt that he is
>>> going to give up in that regard and become loyal to Harry. Dobby
>>> punished himself because "he nearly spoke ill of his family" but
>>> Kreacher was certainly able to insult Harry; it was what led to the
>>> Dobby vs. Kreacher face off. So, who knows?
>> Perhaps Lucius ordered Dobby to hurt himself as punishment for
>> badmouthing them, whereas the Blakcs never gave such an order to
>> Kreacher. Notice out of the 4 Hosue Elves we know about, Dobby is the
>> only one who ever had to punish himself.
>
> I think you should look at book 5 where Harry is trying to find out from
> creature where black is. This is after creature went to Draco's famly and
> after he hert buckbeak to get black out of the way. If you look at that
> spot I think you will see a hint that creature did the same as dobby. The
> bandages on creatures hands are what I am getting at. As they where never
> mentioned as to how Creature got them I rather think it was a hint that
> creature was not doing as he should. Just like dobby did before Harry
> helped to free him.

I think we were told Kreacher got them after hurting Buckbeak. In any
case, Kreacher only would punish himself if he in some way disobey
Sirius' orders, which he didn't: As DD said, Harry is not his master, he
can lie him all the way. And, Kreacher, IICR, took a direct order from
Narcissa, who can order him as well: Kreacher is supposed to do what the
family ask him to do and Cissy is family.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #224156 ] Di, 28 Februar 2006 05:24
Kami  
richard e white wrote:

> I think you should look at book 5 where Harry is trying to find out from
> creature where black is. This is after creature went to Draco's famly and
> after he hert buckbeak to get black out of the way. If you look at that
> spot I think you will see a hint that creature did the same as dobby. The
> bandages on creatures hands are what I am getting at. As they where never
> mentioned as to how Creature got them I rather think it was a hint that
> creature was not doing as he should. Just like dobby did before Harry
> helped to free him.

Well done, Richard! Thanks for pointing that out. I did go back and
look up that scene -where Harry was using Umbridge's fire to find out
if Sirius had left HQ to go to the Department of Mysteries, before
going there himself. And there it was:
"Kreacher the house-elf came creeping into view. He looked highly
delighted about something, though he seemed to have recently sustained
a nasty injury to both hands, which were heavily bandaged." (OOTP, Ch.
32 - Out of the Fire, pg. 740)

It does seem likely that Kreacher acquired those injuries as a result
of doing something he knew that his master wouldn't approve of.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #224179 ] Di, 28 Februar 2006 09:55
Toon  
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 19:50:51 -0800, richard e white <chiphead [at] cox.net>
wrote:

>Toon wrote:
>
>> On 24 Feb 2006 01:28:42 -0800, "Kami" <Slytherin-witch [at] hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >in any way that he can. He has already tried to find a loophole that
>> >would allow him a way around one of Harry's orders. I doubt that he is
>> >going to give up in that regard and become loyal to Harry. Dobby
>> >punished himself because "he nearly spoke ill of his family" but
>> >Kreacher was certainly able to insult Harry; it was what led to the
>> >Dobby vs. Kreacher face off. So, who knows?
>>
>> Perhaps Lucius ordered Dobby to hurt himself as punishment for
>> badmouthing them, whereas the Blakcs never gave such an order to
>> Kreacher. Notice out of the 4 Hosue Elves we know about, Dobby is the
>> only one who ever had to punish himself.
>
>I think you should look at book 5 where Harry is trying to find out from
>creature where black is. This is after creature went to Draco's famly and
>after he hert buckbeak to get black out of the way. If you look at that
>spot I think you will see a hint that creature did the same as dobby. The
>bandages on creatures hands are what I am getting at. As they where never
>mentioned as to how Creature got them I rather think it was a hint that
>creature was not doing as he should. Just like dobby did before Harry
>helped to free him.

Or maybe he tried fiddling with a certain locket. Perhaps one he
helped steal long ago.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #224180 ] Di, 28 Februar 2006 09:56
Toon  
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 23:03:07 -0500, drusilla <me [at] me.net> wrote:

>richard e white escribió:
>> Toon wrote:
>>
>>> On 24 Feb 2006 01:28:42 -0800, "Kami" <Slytherin-witch [at] hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> in any way that he can. He has already tried to find a loophole that
>>>> would allow him a way around one of Harry's orders. I doubt that he is
>>>> going to give up in that regard and become loyal to Harry. Dobby
>>>> punished himself because "he nearly spoke ill of his family" but
>>>> Kreacher was certainly able to insult Harry; it was what led to the
>>>> Dobby vs. Kreacher face off. So, who knows?
>>> Perhaps Lucius ordered Dobby to hurt himself as punishment for
>>> badmouthing them, whereas the Blakcs never gave such an order to
>>> Kreacher. Notice out of the 4 Hosue Elves we know about, Dobby is the
>>> only one who ever had to punish himself.
>>
>> I think you should look at book 5 where Harry is trying to find out from
>> creature where black is. This is after creature went to Draco's famly and
>> after he hert buckbeak to get black out of the way. If you look at that
>> spot I think you will see a hint that creature did the same as dobby. The
>> bandages on creatures hands are what I am getting at. As they where never
>> mentioned as to how Creature got them I rather think it was a hint that
>> creature was not doing as he should. Just like dobby did before Harry
>> helped to free him.
>
>I think we were told Kreacher got them after hurting Buckbeak. In any
>case, Kreacher only would punish himself if he in some way disobey
>Sirius' orders, which he didn't: As DD said, Harry is not his master, he
>can lie him all the way. And, Kreacher, IICR, took a direct order from
>Narcissa, who can order him as well: Kreacher is supposed to do what the
>family ask him to do and Cissy is family.

as long as it didn't violate a previous order. Kreacher couldn't
spill any order secret he heard, but he could detail relationships,
feelings, generalities. Enough that V knew to use Sirius to get to
Harry.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #224181 ] Di, 28 Februar 2006 09:57
Toon  
On 27 Feb 2006 20:24:06 -0800, "Kami" <Slytherin-witch [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>richard e white wrote:
>
>> I think you should look at book 5 where Harry is trying to find out from
>> creature where black is. This is after creature went to Draco's famly and
>> after he hert buckbeak to get black out of the way. If you look at that
>> spot I think you will see a hint that creature did the same as dobby. The
>> bandages on creatures hands are what I am getting at. As they where never
>> mentioned as to how Creature got them I rather think it was a hint that
>> creature was not doing as he should. Just like dobby did before Harry
>> helped to free him.
>
>Well done, Richard! Thanks for pointing that out. I did go back and
>look up that scene -where Harry was using Umbridge's fire to find out
>if Sirius had left HQ to go to the Department of Mysteries, before
>going there himself. And there it was:
> "Kreacher the house-elf came creeping into view. He looked highly
>delighted about something, though he seemed to have recently sustained
>a nasty injury to both hands, which were heavily bandaged." (OOTP, Ch.
>32 - Out of the Fire, pg. 740)
>
>It does seem likely that Kreacher acquired those injuries as a result
>of doing something he knew that his master wouldn't approve of.

Well, it could be anything, we don't get a hint outside of a
similarity to COS.
Re: JKRˇs site poll [message #230444 ] Do, 02 März 2006 09:29
Jan van Aalderen  
drusilla wrote:
> "What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?
>
> I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that
> I'd have voted for… but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is
> what you want to know!
>
> When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it
> another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the
> moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to
> know the hidden information, but nobody else.
>
> Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is
>
> "an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
> secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
> the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
> find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it"
> (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

Which in real life means, that the FC offers very little protection, as
anyone can be tortured or mindraped (V is an expert legillimens) into
'divulging' the secret. So all the bad guys need is to know who the
secretkeeper, which cannot be an extremely well kept secret as everyone
who has to go to the hideout needs to be informed by the SK himself, and
hence may know who the secretkeeper is and hence can tell this, whether
willingly or not.

> In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
> the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
> our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
> – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the
> secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
> Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
> able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
> ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
> directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the
> information."(*)

But could pass on who told them, unless they were told in writing - in
itself a big risk - and did not know the handwriting.

..........

--
Vriendelijke groet,
Jan van Aalderen, Amstelveen
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*
Wie mijn raad volgt, doet zulks geheel op eigen risico!
Reactie op usenetpostjes in de groep. Email zie ik niet.
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*
Re: JKRˇssite poll [message #231189 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 09:49
richard e white  
drusilla wrote:

> richard e white escribi=F3:
> > Toon wrote:
> >
> >> On 24 Feb 2006 01:28:42 -0800, "Kami" <Slytherin-witch [at] hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> in any way that he can. He has already tried to find a loophole tha=
t
> >>> would allow him a way around one of Harry's orders. I doubt that he=
is
> >>> going to give up in that regard and become loyal to Harry. Dobby
> >>> punished himself because "he nearly spoke ill of his family" but
> >>> Kreacher was certainly able to insult Harry; it was what led to the=

> >>> Dobby vs. Kreacher face off. So, who knows?
> >> Perhaps Lucius ordered Dobby to hurt himself as punishment for
> >> badmouthing them, whereas the Blakcs never gave such an order to
> >> Kreacher. Notice out of the 4 Hosue Elves we know about, Dobby is t=
he
> >> only one who ever had to punish himself.
> >
> > I think you should look at book 5 where Harry is trying to find out f=
rom
> > creature where black is. This is after creature went to Draco's faml=
y and
> > after he hert buckbeak to get black out of the way. If you look at t=
hat
> > spot I think you will see a hint that creature did the same as dobby.=
The
> > bandages on creatures hands are what I am getting at. As they where =
never
> > mentioned as to how Creature got them I rather think it was a hint th=
at
> > creature was not doing as he should. Just like dobby did before Harr=
y
> > helped to free him.
>
> I think we were told Kreacher got them after hurting Buckbeak. In any
> case, Kreacher only would punish himself if he in some way disobey
> Sirius' orders, which he didn't: As DD said, Harry is not his master, h=
e
> can lie him all the way. And, Kreacher, IICR, took a direct order from
> Narcissa, who can order him as well: Kreacher is supposed to do what th=
e
> family ask him to do and Cissy is family.

We were never told why creature got them. Some people guessed that he go=
t them
because he hert buckbeak. others belived that creature got the wounds be=
cause
he changed how he interped CB's orders. Dobby refures to herting his han=
ds when
he went off to warn Harry. Dobby may have had to do the same thing becau=
se he
hert buck beak or because he knew he was warping CB's orders to go vist t=
he last
person that he wanted to serve.
I just said that dobby was not the only house elf we have seen with wound=
s.
Myself I don't think buckbeak did creatures wounds as I don't think it wo=
uld
have been all the fingers that needed bandages. the stumps where the fin=
gers
were may be. As I would expect buckbeak to remove small digets like that=
rather
then leave them needing bandages.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: JKRˇssite poll [message #231190 ] Mi, 08 März 2006 09:53
richard e white  
Kami wrote:

> richard e white wrote:
>
> > I think you should look at book 5 where Harry is trying to find out from
> > creature where black is. This is after creature went to Draco's famly and
> > after he hert buckbeak to get black out of the way. If you look at that
> > spot I think you will see a hint that creature did the same as dobby. The
> > bandages on creatures hands are what I am getting at. As they where never
> > mentioned as to how Creature got them I rather think it was a hint that
> > creature was not doing as he should. Just like dobby did before Harry
> > helped to free him.
>
> Well done, Richard! Thanks for pointing that out. I did go back and
> look up that scene -where Harry was using Umbridge's fire to find out
> if Sirius had left HQ to go to the Department of Mysteries, before
> going there himself. And there it was:
> "Kreacher the house-elf came creeping into view. He looked highly
> delighted about something, though he seemed to have recently sustained
> a nasty injury to both hands, which were heavily bandaged." (OOTP, Ch.
> 32 - Out of the Fire, pg. 740)
>
> It does seem likely that Kreacher acquired those injuries as a result
> of doing something he knew that his master wouldn't approve of.

I am glad you agree. to me the wounds were just like some that Dobby had in
book two. And that leads me to think that like Dobby creature got them more or
less the same way. it might have been for going to draco's mom, or it might
have been for injoreing buckbeak. But I still find it as another instance of a
house elf punishing it's self. Sorry that I have been out for so long but have
some house repaires going on.


--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Vorheriges Thema:Unusual and Important(?) things in GoF movie
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