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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Snape's actions in book 5
Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223221] Mo, 20 Februar 2006 21:36
Tuvas  
I just finished re-reading book 5, and thought alot about this. What do
Snape's actions in book 5 show about his true loyalty? I noticed
several possibilities.

1. Occulmency. Maybe snape was trying to widen Harry's mind up for L.
Voldemort.
2. Final battle, why did Snape alert the order if he was a bad guy? (In
my mind, this is the single greatest proof of Snape being a good guy
really... I haven't made up my mind if I think he's good or bad yet
though.)
3. Do you think that Snape hid other of his memories?

Just curious to all of your opinions. Thanks!
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223223 ] Mo, 20 Februar 2006 22:09
Jonathan Ellis  
"Tuvas" <tuvas21 [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1140467799.110710.243400 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> I just finished re-reading book 5, and thought alot about this. What
do
> Snape's actions in book 5 show about his true loyalty? I noticed
> several possibilities.
>
> 1. Occulmency. Maybe snape was trying to widen Harry's mind up for
L.
> Voldemort.

I think he wanted to find out as much as he could, for *his own*
personal reasons.

> 2. Final battle, why did Snape alert the order if he was a bad guy?
(In
> my mind, this is the single greatest proof of Snape being a good guy
> really... I haven't made up my mind if I think he's good or bad yet
> though.)

The world isn't made up of "good guys" and "bad guys". And not all the
"good" people are on the same side. Even less are all the "bad" people
on the same side. All this proves is that Snape is not FULLY on
Voldemort's side. I suspect he's trying to be a side all of his own,
but it's in his personal interests at that particular time to try to
stop Voldemort... while at the same time taking satisfaction in the
death of his personal enemy, Sirius Black.

Jonathan.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223226 ] Mo, 20 Februar 2006 22:16
eggplant107  
> Final battle, why did Snape alert the order if he was a bad guy?

It all makes sense when you think about it. Voldemort's plan was to
trick Harry to go to the ministry, but when Snape showed up Harry was
caught by Umbrage so Snape figured the plan had failed, it never
occurred to him that Harry would manage to escape and make it all the
way to the ministry. With the plan canceled anyway it couldn't hurt to
tell the Order of the Phoenix what Harry said, in fact he had to if he
wanted to remain a spy. Dozens of people heard Harry talk to Snape
about padfoot and sooner or later The Order would hear about it and
wonder why Snape didn't tell them immediately.

Snape is evil

Eggplamt
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223230 ] Mo, 20 Februar 2006 23:05
Nuki Mouse  
"Tuvas" <tuvas21 [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1140467799.110710.243400 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>I just finished re-reading book 5, and thought alot about this. What do
> Snape's actions in book 5 show about his true loyalty? I noticed
> several possibilities.
>
> 1. Occulmency. Maybe snape was trying to widen Harry's mind up for L.
> Voldemort.

Personally, I think it was more Harry's and Snape's hatred for each other
that interfered with the lessons, and not a planned attempt to open Harry's
mind further. Too many people, like Sirius and DD, knew how Occulmency
worked for Snape to purposely teach it wrong.

> 2. Final battle, why did Snape alert the order if he was a bad guy? (In
> my mind, this is the single greatest proof of Snape being a good guy
> really... I haven't made up my mind if I think he's good or bad yet
> though.)

However, there is no proof he didn't wait just long enough for Harry to
escape Umbridge and travel to the Ministry for Magic w/o being stopped
before notifying the rest of the order. And if he failed completely to
notify the order, he would be making it too obvious he might have turned (or
still be) evil again.

> 3. Do you think that Snape hid other of his memories?

Why not? The pensive can hold many memories at once. It could be just that
Harry only viewed that one of his father tormenting Snape after their OWL
exams before Snape caught him doing it.

> Just curious to all of your opinions. Thanks!
>


--
"This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
"Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it," S. Tallentyre, summarizing Voltaire's views.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223239 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 02:07
wadkin2000  
Nuki Mouse wrote:
> "Tuvas" <tuvas21 [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1140467799.110710.243400 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >I just finished re-reading book 5, and thought alot about this. What do
> > Snape's actions in book 5 show about his true loyalty? I noticed
> > several possibilities.
> >
> > 1. Occulmency. Maybe snape was trying to widen Harry's mind up for L.
> > Voldemort.
>
> Personally, I think it was more Harry's and Snape's hatred for each other
> that interfered with the lessons, and not a planned attempt to open Harry's
> mind further. Too many people, like Sirius and DD, knew how Occulmency
> worked for Snape to purposely teach it wrong.
>
> > 2. Final battle, why did Snape alert the order if he was a bad guy? (In
> > my mind, this is the single greatest proof of Snape being a good guy
> > really... I haven't made up my mind if I think he's good or bad yet
> > though.)
>
> However, there is no proof he didn't wait just long enough for Harry to
> escape Umbridge and travel to the Ministry for Magic w/o being stopped
> before notifying the rest of the order. And if he failed completely to
> notify the order, he would be making it too obvious he might have turned (or
> still be) evil again.
>
> > 3. Do you think that Snape hid other of his memories?
>
> Why not? The pensive can hold many memories at once. It could be just that
> Harry only viewed that one of his father tormenting Snape after their OWL
> exams before Snape caught him doing it.
>
> > Just curious to all of your opinions. Thanks!
> >
>
>
> --
> "This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
> "Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
> your right to say it," S. Tallentyre, summarizing Voltaire's views.


Don't forget, the books are written from Harry's point of view, and
Harry, prior to HBP, disliked Snape intensely. After HBP, he really
hated him. Unfortunately, Snape never got past his hatred for James
and immaturely carried that feeling over to Harry. If he had been able
to get past it, I don't think he would have stopped the Occlumency
lessons. I guess some wounds just don't heal with time. As far as
notifying the Order, we really don't know what the exact time frame
was. It's quite possible everything occurred as DD said and Snape did
everything right. Again, all this is from Harry's view and he is
determined to blame Snape.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223245 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 02:56
Nuki Mouse  
<wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1140484043.156061.83590 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
>
> Don't forget, the books are written from Harry's point of view, and
> Harry, prior to HBP, disliked Snape intensely. After HBP, he really
> hated him. Unfortunately, Snape never got past his hatred for James
> and immaturely carried that feeling over to Harry. If he had been able
> to get past it, I don't think he would have stopped the Occlumency
> lessons.

I actually like the idea that Snape is still "good," I was just pointing out
the failure of the lessons seemed more to be due to the hatred between Harry
and Snape, then a plot by Snape. Even DD acknowledge it was a mistake to
have Snape try to teach Harry Occlumency due to the mutual hatred.

> I guess some wounds just don't heal with time. As far as
> notifying the Order, we really don't know what the exact time frame
> was. It's quite possible everything occurred as DD said and Snape did
> everything right. Again, all this is from Harry's view and he is
> determined to blame Snape.

Again I wasn't trying to say Snape DID wait too long on purpose to warn the
Order that Harry believed Sirius was being tortured at the Dept of
Mysteries. However the Order didn't showed up until after Harry freed
himself from Umbridge, escaped the Centaurs, located the Thestrals, flew to
London, entered the Ministry, found the prophecy room and got caught by the
Death Eaters, escaped into the time room and fought there, escaped to the
brain room and fought there, escaped to the death veil room and fought
there. Only then did the Members of the Order of the Phoenix showed up.
BUT Snape did contact the Order's headquarters and found Sirius WAS there
and not capture. It was only after a Harry, Hermione and Umbridge failed to
return from the Dark Forrest that Snape became worried that Harry might have
escaped Delores and was trying to "rescue" Sirius by himself. Only then did
Snape notify other members of the Order that Harry might be trying to sneak
into the Ministry for Magic.

Nuki Mouse
--
"This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
"Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it," S. Tallentyre, summarizing Voltaire's views.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223247 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 03:43
wadkin2000  
Nuki Mouse wrote:
> <wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1140484043.156061.83590 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> [snip]
> >
> > Don't forget, the books are written from Harry's point of view, and
> > Harry, prior to HBP, disliked Snape intensely. After HBP, he really
> > hated him. Unfortunately, Snape never got past his hatred for James
> > and immaturely carried that feeling over to Harry. If he had been able
> > to get past it, I don't think he would have stopped the Occlumency
> > lessons.
>
> I actually like the idea that Snape is still "good," I was just pointing out
> the failure of the lessons seemed more to be due to the hatred between Harry
> and Snape, then a plot by Snape. Even DD acknowledge it was a mistake to
> have Snape try to teach Harry Occlumency due to the mutual hatred.
>
> > I guess some wounds just don't heal with time. As far as
> > notifying the Order, we really don't know what the exact time frame
> > was. It's quite possible everything occurred as DD said and Snape did
> > everything right. Again, all this is from Harry's view and he is
> > determined to blame Snape.
>
> Again I wasn't trying to say Snape DID wait too long on purpose to warn the
> Order that Harry believed Sirius was being tortured at the Dept of
> Mysteries. However the Order didn't showed up until after Harry freed
> himself from Umbridge, escaped the Centaurs, located the Thestrals, flew to
> London, entered the Ministry, found the prophecy room and got caught by the
> Death Eaters, escaped into the time room and fought there, escaped to the
> brain room and fought there, escaped to the death veil room and fought
> there. Only then did the Members of the Order of the Phoenix showed up.
> BUT Snape did contact the Order's headquarters and found Sirius WAS there
> and not capture. It was only after a Harry, Hermione and Umbridge failed to
> return from the Dark Forrest that Snape became worried that Harry might have
> escaped Delores and was trying to "rescue" Sirius by himself. Only then did
> Snape notify other members of the Order that Harry might be trying to sneak
> into the Ministry for Magic.
>
> Nuki Mouse
> --
> "This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
> "Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
> your right to say it," S. Tallentyre, summarizing Voltaire's views.


I, too, hope Snape turns out to be good and that the events in HBP were
part of a pre-arranged plan with DD. (I guess I can hope!)
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223340 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 21:16
Tuvas  
It's kind of an interesting Re-reading book 5 gave me alot more
thoughts on snape than the first time. The whole ministry fiasco is
kind of funny, if you think about it. I personally am of the opinion
that Snape wants to have the power to himself. Snape has loved, which
could make him a more formidable opponent than Voldy. He definately has
some questionable motives at well. Hmmm. Who knows what may happen.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223341 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 21:48
Kish  
Tuvas wrote:
> Snape has loved, which
> could make him a more formidable opponent than Voldy.

Erm. Not necessarily. Snape has /been/ loved; we don't know what (if
anything) he felt in return.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223342 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 21:59
Tuvas  
Hmmm. You've got a point there. Maybe it was just by his mother? Who
knows...
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223346 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 22:33
Jan van Aalderen  
Tuvas wrote:
> I just finished re-reading book 5, and thought alot about this. What do
> Snape's actions in book 5 show about his true loyalty? I noticed
> several possibilities.
..................
> 2. Final battle, why did Snape alert the order if he was a bad guy? (In
> my mind, this is the single greatest proof of Snape being a good guy
> really... I haven't made up my mind if I think he's good or bad yet
> though.)
> 3. Do you think that Snape hid other of his memories?
>
> Just curious to all of your opinions. Thanks!
>

One possibility is, that Snape *thought* he had waited long enough
before warbing the Order for the DE's to have captured the prophecy by
the time the Order arrived at the MoM. Harry and friends hold out longer
against the DE's than anyone - and especially Snape, with his low
opinion about Harry - would have expected.

--
Vriendelijke groet,
Jan van Aalderen, Amstelveen
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*
Wie mijn raad volgt, doet zulks geheel op eigen risico!
Reactie op usenetpostjes in de groep. Email zie ik niet.
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Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223347 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 22:41
Tuvas  
Here's another question. Do you really think that Snape has such a low
opinion of Harry. We all know that he doesn't like him, but do you
think that Snape thinks that Harry's an idiot? Just curious, thanks!
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223348 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 22:53
Brian  
Tuvas wrote:
> Hmmm. You've got a point there. Maybe it was just by his mother? Who
> knows...

I don't remember the exact wording of Rowling's response; I seem to
recall it implied romantically, but that might have just been a verbal
misdirection.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223349 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 22:59
Brian  
Tuvas wrote:
> Here's another question. Do you really think that Snape has such a low
> opinion of Harry. We all know that he doesn't like him, but do you
> think that Snape thinks that Harry's an idiot? Just curious, thanks!

Yeah, you see, I don't think he really thinks he's an idiot. To be fair,
he doesn't say he's an idiot, only that he's mediocre (or words to that
effect), but would someone who actually has a low opinion of someone
hand him an E on his Potions OWL? This is before his copy of Advanced
Potion Making fell into Harry's hands, too.

One thing that's been bugging me: If Snape is still Voldemort's man,
why does he go out of his way to arouse Harry's suspicions? After it
supposedly became evident to Snape that Voldemort had arisen (no later
than the end of Book Four), wouldn't it behoove Snape to lighten up on
Harry just a tad, so as to maintain some level of confidence?

I'm not ready to declare myself one way or the other on Snape, but
whatever explanation comes up for his behavior had better be pretty
darned convincing. It has to explain the broad sweep of his behavior;
it all has to make sense.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223353 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 23:05
Kish  
Brian Tung wrote:
> Tuvas wrote:
>
>>Here's another question. Do you really think that Snape has such a low
>>opinion of Harry. We all know that he doesn't like him, but do you
>>think that Snape thinks that Harry's an idiot? Just curious, thanks!
>
>
> Yeah, you see, I don't think he really thinks he's an idiot. To be fair,
> he doesn't say he's an idiot, only that he's mediocre (or words to that
> effect), but would someone who actually has a low opinion of someone
> hand him an E on his Potions OWL?

Snape has /nothing/ to say about O.W.L.s. There is absolutely no doubt
in my mind that if he did, not only would Harry have gotten a T without
regard for his work, but Snape's N.E.W.T. class would consist entirely
of Slytherins.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223355 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 23:16
Brian  
Kish wrote:
> Snape has /nothing/ to say about O.W.L.s. There is absolutely no doubt
> in my mind that if he did, not only would Harry have gotten a T without
> regard for his work, but Snape's N.E.W.T. class would consist entirely
> of Slytherins.

Ahh, OK. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I thought that he would
grade the written test, but the Ministry examiner would grade the
practical test. You're saying that the Ministry grades both?

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223356 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 23:19
devnull  
Brian Tung wrote:
> Tuvas wrote:
>
>>Hmmm. You've got a point there. Maybe it was just by his mother? Who
>>knows...
>
>
> I don't remember the exact wording of Rowling's response; I seem to
> recall it implied romantically, but that might have just been a verbal
> misdirection.

I read that too and immediately thought of his mother...

--
Take the Snape polls: http://snape.mosteo.com [Updated 16/08]
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223357 ] Di, 21 Februar 2006 23:21
Kish  
Brian Tung wrote:
> Kish wrote:
>
>>Snape has /nothing/ to say about O.W.L.s. There is absolutely no doubt
>>in my mind that if he did, not only would Harry have gotten a T without
>>regard for his work, but Snape's N.E.W.T. class would consist entirely
>>of Slytherins.
>
>
> Ahh, OK. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I thought that he would
> grade the written test, but the Ministry examiner would grade the
> practical test. You're saying that the Ministry grades both?

Yes, they appear to be all graded by the examiners from the Ministry, to
avoid any conflict of interests (a surprising degree of concern for
fairness for the amount of corruption the Ministry usually shows).
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223358 ] Mi, 22 Februar 2006 00:02
wadkin2000  
Tuvas wrote:
> Hmmm. You've got a point there. Maybe it was just by his mother? Who
> knows...

According to the interview with JKR in July,2005, she was asked, "Has
Snape ever been loved by anyone?" and she replied, "Yes, he has, which
in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort."
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223360 ] Mi, 22 Februar 2006 00:04
Brian  
> According to the interview with JKR in July,2005, she was asked, "Has
> Snape ever been loved by anyone?" and she replied, "Yes, he has, which
> in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort."

Hunh. Pretty ambiguous, I'd say. I could go either way with that.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223369 ] Mi, 22 Februar 2006 01:23
wadkin2000  
Brian Tung wrote:
> > According to the interview with JKR in July,2005, she was asked, "Has
> > Snape ever been loved by anyone?" and she replied, "Yes, he has, which
> > in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort."
>
> Hunh. Pretty ambiguous, I'd say. I could go either way with that.
>
> --
> Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
> The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
> Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
> The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
> My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Exactly, and in the same interview she was asked, "Was James the only
one who had romantic feelings for Lily?" Her answer was, "No," (Pause)
"She was a popular girl and that's relevant." That brings me back to
my theory that there was an attraction on Snape's part for Lily (she
saw the good in people when they couldn't see it in themselves and she
was great in potions). IMO, I don't think she had romantic feelings
for him, but I could see him having feelings for her.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223396 ] Mi, 22 Februar 2006 05:38
drusilla  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com escribió:
> Brian Tung wrote:
>>> According to the interview with JKR in July,2005, she was asked, "Has
>>> Snape ever been loved by anyone?" and she replied, "Yes, he has, which
>>> in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort."
>> Hunh. Pretty ambiguous, I'd say. I could go either way with that.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
>> The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
>> Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
>> The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
>> My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
>
> Exactly, and in the same interview she was asked, "Was James the only
> one who had romantic feelings for Lily?" Her answer was, "No," (Pause)
> "She was a popular girl and that's relevant." That brings me back to
> my theory that there was an attraction on Snape's part for Lily (she
> saw the good in people when they couldn't see it in themselves and she
> was great in potions). IMO, I don't think she had romantic feelings
> for him, but I could see him having feelings for her.

At that point, I think she meant about Lupin, as people could have
started thinking he had also feelings about her and competed against
james for her attention, which she said it never happened.

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Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223398 ] Mi, 22 Februar 2006 05:42
drusilla  
Kish escribió:
> Tuvas wrote:
>> Snape has loved, which
>> could make him a more formidable opponent than Voldy.
>
> Erm. Not necessarily. Snape has /been/ loved; we don't know what (if
> anything) he felt in return.

If the person who loved him was his mother, I doubt he didn't love her
back.
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Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #223424 ] Mi, 22 Februar 2006 10:55
Toon  
On 21 Feb 2006 12:16:28 -0800, "Tuvas" <tuvas21 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

>It's kind of an interesting Re-reading book 5 gave me alot more
>thoughts on snape than the first time. The whole ministry fiasco is
>kind of funny, if you think about it. I personally am of the opinion
>that Snape wants to have the power to himself. Snape has loved, which
>could make him a more formidable opponent than Voldy. He definately has
>some questionable motives at well. Hmmm. Who knows what may happen.

He's secretly working with the Dept Of Mysteries to find a cure for
extra greasy hair. Top Hair Specialist Wizards were joining the DE's,
so he infiltrated them for their info.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230442 ] Do, 02 März 2006 09:19
Jan van Aalderen  
Brian Tung wrote:
> Tuvas wrote:
>> Here's another question. Do you really think that Snape has such a low
>> opinion of Harry. We all know that he doesn't like him, but do you
>> think that Snape thinks that Harry's an idiot? Just curious, thanks!
>
> Yeah, you see, I don't think he really thinks he's an idiot. To be fair,
> he doesn't say he's an idiot, only that he's mediocre (or words to that
> effect), but would someone who actually has a low opinion of someone
> hand him an E on his Potions OWL? This is before his copy of Advanced
> Potion Making fell into Harry's hands, too.

I think Snape's opinion about Harry, andcertainly his attitude towards
him, have little to do with Harry, and even less with his intelligence.

>
> One thing that's been bugging me: If Snape is still Voldemort's man,
> why does he go out of his way to arouse Harry's suspicions? After it
> supposedly became evident to Snape that Voldemort had arisen (no later
> than the end of Book Four), wouldn't it behoove Snape to lighten up on
> Harry just a tad, so as to maintain some level of confidence?

A thought on that one: in Harry's occlumency lessons, Snape emphasized
the need to focus. Indeed, to be able to hide ones thoughts for prying
hostile minds, a good deal of focus seems a logical requirement. There
are two ways to free the foreground of ones mind from unwanted thoughts:
blank them out (like by meditation) or burn them out (by letting strong
other thoughts push them to the background).

It *could* be, that Snape shows V hatred and contempt towards Harry, V's
mortal enemy, as second line of defense: he strives to keep his mind
blank against V's extraordinary talent for legillimency, but as he is
not likely to succeed 100%, he makes sure that any thoughts V might pick
up as "background noise" are very negative.
And since V can summon his DE's on very short notice, Snape needs to
have his mind ready asap at all times.


> I'm not ready to declare myself one way or the other on Snape, but
> whatever explanation comes up for his behavior had better be pretty
> darned convincing. It has to explain the broad sweep of his behavior;
> it all has to make sense.

I was very suprised with the details Snape gave to the black sisters in
"Spinner's End". Of course, any doublespy should be able to explain his
known actions convincingly to either side. But that chapter was a bit
too convincing to be entirely convincing. So I concluded that Snape
might still be "good" or at least be neutral, just wanting to look an
acceptable ally to both sides.


--
Vriendelijke groet,
Jan van Aalderen, Amstelveen
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*
Wie mijn raad volgt, doet zulks geheel op eigen risico!
Reactie op usenetpostjes in de groep. Email zie ik niet.
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230443 ] Do, 02 März 2006 09:27
Kish  
Jan van Aalderen wrote:

> I was very suprised with the details Snape gave to the black sisters in
> "Spinner's End". Of course, any doublespy should be able to explain his
> known actions convincingly to either side. But that chapter was a bit
> too convincing to be entirely convincing. So I concluded that Snape
> might still be "good" or at least be neutral, just wanting to look an
> acceptable ally to both sides.

Erm, wait just a bleedin' minute here.

If Snape is actually loyal to Voldemort and against Dumbledore, his
"act" of loyalty to Voldemort and opposition to Dumbledore would
necessarily be flawless, due to not being an act. And you're taking the
lack of inconsistency in his story in Spinner's End--as evidence that
the story is false? So if Snape's story is convincing, that means it's
untrue. And if it's unconvincing--well, I'd hope you wouldn't say it's
true then.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230478 ] Do, 02 März 2006 17:00
wadkin2000  
Kish wrote:
> Jan van Aalderen wrote:
>
> > I was very suprised with the details Snape gave to the black sisters in
> > "Spinner's End". Of course, any doublespy should be able to explain his
> > known actions convincingly to either side. But that chapter was a bit
> > too convincing to be entirely convincing. So I concluded that Snape
> > might still be "good" or at least be neutral, just wanting to look an
> > acceptable ally to both sides.
>
> Erm, wait just a bleedin' minute here.
>
> If Snape is actually loyal to Voldemort and against Dumbledore, his
> "act" of loyalty to Voldemort and opposition to Dumbledore would
> necessarily be flawless, due to not being an act. And you're taking the
> lack of inconsistency in his story in Spinner's End--as evidence that
> the story is false? So if Snape's story is convincing, that means it's
> untrue. And if it's unconvincing--well, I'd hope you wouldn't say it's
> true then.


I think what Jan meant was sometimes when a person is lying (especially
if they are an expert at it) and tells a story perfectly and
convincingly, they almost believe it themselves. If they retold the
tale five times, each time would be exactly the same with no deviation
at all (almost as if they memorized it) It's almost too pat, too
consistent (I've been watching alot of Law & Order recently!). Since
Snape is such an accomplished Occlumens, I don't think that's so
implausible. On the other hand, everything he told Bella and Narcissa
could be true. That's what's so delicious about the character, such a
shade of grey!
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230554 ] Fr, 03 März 2006 02:51
Brian  
Kish wrote:
> If Snape is actually loyal to Voldemort and against Dumbledore, his
> "act" of loyalty to Voldemort and opposition to Dumbledore would
> necessarily be flawless, due to not being an act. And you're taking the
> lack of inconsistency in his story in Spinner's End--as evidence that
> the story is false? So if Snape's story is convincing, that means it's
> untrue. And if it's unconvincing--well, I'd hope you wouldn't say it's
> true then.

I'm not necessarily espousing his point of view (I have to think about
it a little more), but surely what he's saying is that someone's story
can be a little too pat, a little too glib. Certainly, it seems to
strike Bellatrix that way, so that she's surprised when he accepts the
final clause of the Vow.

I do agree that it wouldn't be wise at this point to put too much stock
one way or the other solely in Snape's behavior in this chapter.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
(Location of these pages soon to change. Stay tuned for updates.)
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230611 ] Fr, 03 März 2006 14:15
Toon  
On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 09:19:06 +0100, Jan van Aalderen
<reply-in-group-please [at] jva.getxs.nl> wrote:

>Brian Tung wrote:
>> Tuvas wrote:
>>> Here's another question. Do you really think that Snape has such a low
>>> opinion of Harry. We all know that he doesn't like him, but do you
>>> think that Snape thinks that Harry's an idiot? Just curious, thanks!
>>
>> Yeah, you see, I don't think he really thinks he's an idiot. To be fair,
>> he doesn't say he's an idiot, only that he's mediocre (or words to that
>> effect), but would someone who actually has a low opinion of someone
>> hand him an E on his Potions OWL? This is before his copy of Advanced
>> Potion Making fell into Harry's hands, too.
>
>I think Snape's opinion about Harry, andcertainly his attitude towards
>him, have little to do with Harry, and even less with his intelligence.
>
>>
>> One thing that's been bugging me: If Snape is still Voldemort's man,
>> why does he go out of his way to arouse Harry's suspicions? After it
>> supposedly became evident to Snape that Voldemort had arisen (no later
>> than the end of Book Four), wouldn't it behoove Snape to lighten up on
>> Harry just a tad, so as to maintain some level of confidence?
>
>A thought on that one: in Harry's occlumency lessons, Snape emphasized
>the need to focus. Indeed, to be able to hide ones thoughts for prying
>hostile minds, a good deal of focus seems a logical requirement. There
>are two ways to free the foreground of ones mind from unwanted thoughts:
>blank them out (like by meditation) or burn them out (by letting strong
>other thoughts push them to the background).
>
>It *could* be, that Snape shows V hatred and contempt towards Harry, V's
>mortal enemy, as second line of defense: he strives to keep his mind
>blank against V's extraordinary talent for legillimency, but as he is
>not likely to succeed 100%, he makes sure that any thoughts V might pick
>up as "background noise" are very negative.
>And since V can summon his DE's on very short notice, Snape needs to
>have his mind ready asap at all times.
>
>
>> I'm not ready to declare myself one way or the other on Snape, but
>> whatever explanation comes up for his behavior had better be pretty
>> darned convincing. It has to explain the broad sweep of his behavior;
>> it all has to make sense.
>
>I was very suprised with the details Snape gave to the black sisters in
>"Spinner's End". Of course, any doublespy should be able to explain his
>known actions convincingly to either side. But that chapter was a bit
>too convincing to be entirely convincing. So I concluded that Snape
>might still be "good" or at least be neutral, just wanting to look an
>acceptable ally to both sides.

The whole thing as all our various ideas. I felt like JK skipped over
it, taking our most plausible ideas as the official answer.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230761 ] Sa, 04 März 2006 17:19
Tuvas  
I think she didn't really give an official answer. Do you really think
she'd go through the effort to have Snape kill Dumbedore and tell us
between the books if he's really good or bad?
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230821 ] So, 05 März 2006 10:19
Toon  
On 4 Mar 2006 08:19:26 -0800, "Tuvas" <tuvas21 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

>I think she didn't really give an official answer. Do you really think
>she'd go through the effort to have Snape kill Dumbedore and tell us
>between the books if he's really good or bad?

Nope. Hasn't she been hinting for year there's more to Snape than
meets the eyes? sadly, I think there's a book excerpt wherein the
truth lies in plain sight.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230845 ] So, 05 März 2006 16:31
Tuvas  
>From the interview with JKR and Leaky/Mugglenet.

ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die?

JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory?

MA & ES: Yes. It'll be a big theory.

JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little
laughter.] I have to give people hope.

MA: It goes back to the question of whether Snape is a
double-double-double-triple-

JKR: [Laughs] Double-double-quadruple-to-the-power-of - yeah.


Note the part that she doesn't want to shoot down any theories. It's
intresting. Hmmm...
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230871 ] So, 05 März 2006 20:14
drusilla  
Tuvas escribió:
>>From the interview with JKR and Leaky/Mugglenet.
>
> ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die?
>
> JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory?
>
> MA & ES: Yes. It'll be a big theory.
>
> JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little
> laughter.] I have to give people hope.
>
> MA: It goes back to the question of whether Snape is a
> double-double-double-triple-
>
> JKR: [Laughs] Double-double-quadruple-to-the-power-of - yeah.
>
>
> Note the part that she doesn't want to shoot down any theories. It's
> intresting. Hmmm...
>

If she shoots it down, then she'd be confirming the other and it might
lightly confirming that Snape is in fact, in LV's side. Also, we fans
would have nothing to talk about She can't do that.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230872 ] So, 05 März 2006 20:18
Brian  
drusilla wrote:
> If she shoots it down, then she'd be confirming the other and it might
> lightly confirming that Snape is in fact, in LV's side. Also, we fans
> would have nothing to talk about She can't do that.

Plus, damn, she's clever about it, too. The Snape(DD) folks will say,
look, she hasn't shot it down; the Snape(LV) folks will say, yeah, but
she *could* have shot it down, but didn't because she didn't want to
crush your hopes; the Snape(DD) folks will counter that maybe it's the
theory that DD wanted to die that she could have shot down--maybe DD
didn't want to die but Snape had to kill DD against both their wills
because of the circumstances, etc, etc, etc. Words without end.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
(Location of these pages soon to change. Stay tuned for updates.)
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230877 ] So, 05 März 2006 20:37
wadkin2000  
Brian Tung wrote:
> drusilla wrote:
> > If she shoots it down, then she'd be confirming the other and it might
> > lightly confirming that Snape is in fact, in LV's side. Also, we fans
> > would have nothing to talk about She can't do that.
>
> Plus, damn, she's clever about it, too. The Snape(DD) folks will say,
> look, she hasn't shot it down; the Snape(LV) folks will say, yeah, but
> she *could* have shot it down, but didn't because she didn't want to
> crush your hopes; the Snape(DD) folks will counter that maybe it's the
> theory that DD wanted to die that she could have shot down--maybe DD
> didn't want to die but Snape had to kill DD against both their wills
> because of the circumstances, etc, etc, etc. Words without end.
>
> --
> Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
> The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
> Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
> The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
> My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
> (Location of these pages soon to change. Stay tuned for updates.)


Jo may be a very good writer, but she is a master at camouflage. After
reading some of these recent posts, I remembered her saying that Snape
had been loved by someone and was therefore more culpable than
Voldemort. Now the more I think about it, IMO, she probably just meant
his mother. However, she always manages to plant that tiny seed of
doubt with her readers and make them think that there might be more to
her comments than meets the eye.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230896 ] Mo, 06 März 2006 00:50
Tuvas  
You know, I think she loves all of the theories. She only shoots down
the ones that are plain stuped between books, but as for the big ones,
well, she lets them go wild.
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230905 ] Mo, 06 März 2006 02:41
Jan van Aalderen  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Kish wrote:
>> Jan van Aalderen wrote:
>>
>>> I was very suprised with the details Snape gave to the black sisters in
>>> "Spinner's End". Of course, any doublespy should be able to explain his
>>> known actions convincingly to either side. But that chapter was a bit
>>> too convincing to be entirely convincing. So I concluded that Snape
>>> might still be "good" or at least be neutral, just wanting to look an
>>> acceptable ally to both sides.
>> Erm, wait just a bleedin' minute here.
>>
>> If Snape is actually loyal to Voldemort and against Dumbledore, his
>> "act" of loyalty to Voldemort and opposition to Dumbledore would
>> necessarily be flawless, due to not being an act. And you're taking the
>> lack of inconsistency in his story in Spinner's End--as evidence that
>> the story is false? So if Snape's story is convincing, that means it's
>> untrue. And if it's unconvincing--well, I'd hope you wouldn't say it's
>> true then.
>
>
> I think what Jan meant was sometimes when a person is lying (especially
> if they are an expert at it) and tells a story perfectly and
> convincingly, they almost believe it themselves. If they retold the
> tale five times, each time would be exactly the same with no deviation
> at all (almost as if they memorized it) It's almost too pat, too
> consistent (I've been watching alot of Law & Order recently!). Since
> Snape is such an accomplished Occlumens, I don't think that's so
> implausible. On the other hand, everything he told Bella and Narcissa
> could be true. That's what's so delicious about the character, such a
> shade of grey!
>

What I did intend to suggest was that HBP ch 2 provides so much
"evidence" of the assumed "(2nd place) bad guy" being indeed bad, that
it is unlikely to occur so far before the end of the story, unless to
set the reader/listener on the wrong foot.

--
Vriendelijke groet,
Jan van Aalderen, Amstelveen
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*
Wie mijn raad volgt, doet zulks geheel op eigen risico!
Reactie op usenetpostjes in de groep. Email zie ik niet.
*----------------------------------------------------------- --*
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230907 ] Mo, 06 März 2006 02:52
wadkin2000  
Jan van Aalderen wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > Kish wrote:
> >> Jan van Aalderen wrote:
> >>
> >>> I was very suprised with the details Snape gave to the black sisters in
> >>> "Spinner's End". Of course, any doublespy should be able to explain his
> >>> known actions convincingly to either side. But that chapter was a bit
> >>> too convincing to be entirely convincing. So I concluded that Snape
> >>> might still be "good" or at least be neutral, just wanting to look an
> >>> acceptable ally to both sides.
> >> Erm, wait just a bleedin' minute here.
> >>
> >> If Snape is actually loyal to Voldemort and against Dumbledore, his
> >> "act" of loyalty to Voldemort and opposition to Dumbledore would
> >> necessarily be flawless, due to not being an act. And you're taking the
> >> lack of inconsistency in his story in Spinner's End--as evidence that
> >> the story is false? So if Snape's story is convincing, that means it's
> >> untrue. And if it's unconvincing--well, I'd hope you wouldn't say it's
> >> true then.
> >
> >
> > I think what Jan meant was sometimes when a person is lying (especially
> > if they are an expert at it) and tells a story perfectly and
> > convincingly, they almost believe it themselves. If they retold the
> > tale five times, each time would be exactly the same with no deviation
> > at all (almost as if they memorized it) It's almost too pat, too
> > consistent (I've been watching alot of Law & Order recently!). Since
> > Snape is such an accomplished Occlumens, I don't think that's so
> > implausible. On the other hand, everything he told Bella and Narcissa
> > could be true. That's what's so delicious about the character, such a
> > shade of grey!
> >
>
> What I did intend to suggest was that HBP ch 2 provides so much
> "evidence" of the assumed "(2nd place) bad guy" being indeed bad, that
> it is unlikely to occur so far before the end of the story, unless to
> set the reader/listener on the wrong foot.
>
> --
> Vriendelijke groet,
> Jan van Aalderen, Amstelveen
> *----------------------------------------------------------- --*
> Wie mijn raad volgt, doet zulks geheel op eigen risico!
> Reactie op usenetpostjes in de groep. Email zie ik niet.


I agree. Throughout the series, she's been setting the stage for Snape
to be the bad guy. Hopefully, we'll get a nice surprise in book 7!
> *----------------------------------------------------------- --*
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230918 ] Mo, 06 März 2006 04:38
Tuvas  
You don't fully realize the genious of the whole thing. JKR could
indeed tell us exactly how Snape is, and we wouldn't all believe it,
beacuse, we know she's tricked us so many times. Yet, she could be just
putting it right in our face. Who knows...
Re: Snape's actions in book 5 [message #230939 ] Mo, 06 März 2006 10:01
Randy Howser  
On 5 Mar 2006 07:31:36 -0800, "Tuvas" <tuvas21 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

>>From the interview with JKR and Leaky/Mugglenet.
>
>ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die?
>
>JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory?
>
>MA & ES: Yes. It'll be a big theory.
>
>JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little
>laughter.] I have to give people hope.
>
>MA: It goes back to the question of whether Snape is a
>double-double-double-triple-
>
>JKR: [Laughs] Double-double-quadruple-to-the-power-of - yeah.
>
>
>Note the part that she doesn't want to shoot down any theories. It's
>intresting. Hmmm...

Which one? DD planned it to help Harry? Or DD planned it to avoid
actually dying and faking it? Or he didn't fake it, and Snape is
truly evil after all.
Vorheriges Thema:Harry Potter : Is It Something That Christian Children Should Read and/or See?
Nächstes Thema:Spanish (mis)translation :(
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