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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » New comer questions
New comer questions [message #222795] Mi, 15 Februar 2006 23:14
efuritafr  
Finally came across HP saga and managed to read them in a fortnight.
I gathered some questions. First of them deals with the time backwards
thing (prisoner of azkaban). Why none had thaught of it in HBP after
Dumbledore died. Is this technique went out of order after what
happened in the Ministry of Magic or it simply doesn't work against
extreme events such as death....
Next, any clue on the Potter (well James Potter) family ?
Though The Order Of The Phoenix was all action, HBP was much more
slower and has actually ended with too many questions, new plots
(almost in each chapter). For example who is Dumbledore (you can also
put Snape which is obvious) exactly ? All hopes on book 7.

Thx.
Re: New comer questions [message #222798 ] Mi, 15 Februar 2006 23:39
Weird Beard  
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:14:05 GMT, efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr wrote the following in
alt.fan.harry-potter:

> Finally came across HP saga and managed to read them in a fortnight.
> I gathered some questions. First of them deals with the time backwards
> thing (prisoner of azkaban). Why none had thaught of it in HBP after
> Dumbledore died. Is this technique went out of order after what
> happened in the Ministry of Magic or it simply doesn't work against
> extreme events such as death....

You can only go back and affect the outcome of things that haven't already
happened.


> Next, any clue on the Potter (well James Potter) family ?
> Though The Order Of The Phoenix was all action, HBP was much more
> slower and has actually ended with too many questions, new plots
> (almost in each chapter). For example who is Dumbledore (you can also
> put Snape which is obvious) exactly ? All hopes on book 7.
>

I don't understand this. It sounds a bit...mistranslated. Maybe if you
wrote it in French someone could answer it better than I can.
Re: New comer questions [message #222799 ] Mi, 15 Februar 2006 23:41
Zolak of Twylo  
On 2006-02-15 17:39:07 -0500, Weird Beard <weird_beard [at] worldnet.att.net> said:

> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:14:05 GMT, efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr wrote the
> following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
>
>> Finally came across HP saga and managed to read them in a fortnight.
>> I gathered some questions. First of them deals with the time backwards
>> thing (prisoner of azkaban). Why none had thaught of it in HBP after
>> Dumbledore died. Is this technique went out of order after what
>> happened in the Ministry of Magic or it simply doesn't work against
>> extreme events such as death....
>
> You can only go back and affect the outcome of things that haven't
> already happened.

Wasn't Buckbeak beheaded? It only changed AFTER they used the time-turner.

--
Enjoy,

Zolak of Twylo
Re: New comer questions [message #222801 ] Mi, 15 Februar 2006 23:46
Weird Beard  
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:41:32 GMT, Zolak of Twylo
<dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote the following in alt.fan.harry-potter:

> On 2006-02-15 17:39:07 -0500, Weird Beard
> <weird_beard [at] worldnet.att.net> said:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:14:05 GMT, efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr wrote the
>> following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
>>
>>> Finally came across HP saga and managed to read them in a fortnight.
>>> I gathered some questions. First of them deals with the time
>>> backwards thing (prisoner of azkaban). Why none had thaught of it in
>>> HBP after Dumbledore died. Is this technique went out of order after
>>> what happened in the Ministry of Magic or it simply doesn't work
>>> against extreme events such as death....
>>
>> You can only go back and affect the outcome of things that haven't
>> already happened.
>
> Wasn't Buckbeak beheaded? It only changed AFTER they used the
> time-turner.
>
No. He was set free making the executionher so mad that he swung his axe
into the fence in a rage. His escape, naturally, made Hagrid shout for joy.
Re: New comer questions [message #222803 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 00:46
Magic_mom  
Weird Beard wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:41:32 GMT, Zolak of Twylo
> <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote the following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
>
> > On 2006-02-15 17:39:07 -0500, Weird Beard
> > <weird_beard [at] worldnet.att.net> said:
> >
> >> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:14:05 GMT, efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr wrote the
> >> following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
> >>
> >>> Finally came across HP saga and managed to read them in a fortnight.
> >>> I gathered some questions. First of them deals with the time
> >>> backwards thing (prisoner of azkaban). Why none had thaught of it in
> >>> HBP after Dumbledore died. Is this technique went out of order after
> >>> what happened in the Ministry of Magic or it simply doesn't work
> >>> against extreme events such as death....
> >>
> >> You can only go back and affect the outcome of things that haven't
> >> already happened.
> >
> > Wasn't Buckbeak beheaded? It only changed AFTER they used the
> > time-turner.
> >
> No. He was set free making the executionher so mad that he swung his axe
> into the fence in a rage. His escape, naturally, made Hagrid shout for joy.

Correct. You are never actually made aware of what happened this first
time. You cannot tell if Buckbeak was killed or something else is
happening. There are no definitive details. And anyway, if you had read
the books completely, you would know that in book 5, The Order of the
Phoenix, the time turners were destroyed in the fight at the ministry.

M_m
Re: New comer questions [message #222808 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 02:14
Zolak of Twylo  
On 2006-02-15 17:46:51 -0500, Weird Beard <weird_beard [at] worldnet.att.net> said:

> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:41:32 GMT, Zolak of Twylo
> <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote the following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
>> On 2006-02-15 17:39:07 -0500, Weird Beard
>> <weird_beard [at] worldnet.att.net> said:
>>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:14:05 GMT, efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr wrote the
>>> following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
>>>
>>>> Finally came across HP saga and managed to read them in a fortnight.
>>>> I gathered some questions. First of them deals with the time
>>>> backwards thing (prisoner of azkaban). Why none had thaught of it in
>>>> HBP after Dumbledore died. Is this technique went out of order after
>>>> what happened in the Ministry of Magic or it simply doesn't work
>>>> against extreme events such as death....
>>>
>>> You can only go back and affect the outcome of things that haven't
>>> already happened.
>>
>> Wasn't Buckbeak beheaded? It only changed AFTER they used the
>> time-turner.
> No. He was set free making the executionher so mad that he swung his
> axe into the fence in a rage. His escape, naturally, made Hagrid shout
> for joy.


That's what happened AFTER the time turner was used.

--
Enjoy,

Zolak of Twylo
Re: New comer questions [message #222811 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 03:27
Weird Beard  
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 01:14:46 GMT, Zolak of Twylo
<dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote the following in alt.fan.harry-potter:


>> No. He was set free making the executionher so mad that he swung his
>> axe into the fence in a rage. His escape, naturally, made Hagrid
>> shout for joy.
>
>
> That's what happened AFTER the time turner was used.


Yes, but it's also what happened in the final part of chapter 16 and the
start of chapter 17, so it also happened BEFORE they time-turnded.

Coincidence, you say?

Well, then, what stopped the dementors in chapter 20 if it wasn't Harry's
spell from chapter 21?
Re: New comer questions [message #222818 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 06:16
Imagun Aqilya  
"Weird Beard" <weird_beard [at] worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:Xns976BD00DA8A11weirdbeardworldnetat [at] 204.127.36.1...
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 01:14:46 GMT, Zolak of Twylo
> <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote the following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
>
>
>>> No. He was set free making the executionher so mad that he swung his
>>> axe into the fence in a rage. His escape, naturally, made Hagrid
>>> shout for joy.
>>
>>
>> That's what happened AFTER the time turner was used.
>
>
> Yes, but it's also what happened in the final part of chapter 16 and the
> start of chapter 17, so it also happened BEFORE they time-turnded.
>
> Coincidence, you say?
>
> Well, then, what stopped the dementors in chapter 20 if it wasn't Harry's
> spell from chapter 21?


This is an example of the paradox that i dont' like when time travel
scenarios try to get too tricky. Harry goes back in time and ends up saving
his own life but logically speaking he would have been killed (or soul
sucked) and therefore unable to go back in time to save himself. The only
way I can rationalize it is by considering that the first time through the
scenario someone else must have saved Harry et al from the dementors. The
subsequent time travel disrupted events to such a degree that that person
wasn't there to save them making it neccesary for Harry to do the saving.
As far as Buckbeak goes. There is no reason to think that the first time
through the scenario he wasn't beheaded. Even DD said that if they were
successful, two innocent lives could be saved. If BB wasn't in jeopardy he
would not need saving.
Re: New comer questions [message #222819 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 06:20
cspirit  
Regarding time-turner episode, I have always viewed it as a single
chain of events. I mean, when trio hears the sounds of axe and hagrid,
buckbeak has already escaped due to *another* trio. When harry sees the
powerful patronous, it is created by *another* harry. Due to
time-turner, two instances of harry-ron-hermione exist simultaneously,
but the 'context' or 'frame of reference' was always one. They never
CHANGED what happened. We never change what happen due to time-turner.
Due to time-turner, things HAPPEN in a certain way.

Ofcourse, this leaves the question 'what if harry sees harry?' open. I
don't want to guess answers; but then that's why it's so important that
you must not be seen. Because, eventhough you alter a lot using
time-turner, you essentially don't alter anything.

Therotically, you can go back to Voldy's birth time and kill him there.
Or you can prevent Merope from giving Sr. Tom Riddle Love Potion. But
if we go by what i said above, this doesn't seem much possible.

and regarding dumbledore, 'To the well organised mind, death is the
next great adventure.' I believe nobody could've killed him had he not
wanted to die. The reasons will be clear in book7.
Re: New comer questions [message #222823 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 07:47
Nuki Mouse  
..
"Zolak of Twylo" <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote in message
news:2006021520144616807-dannythomas [at] walnutscom...
> On 2006-02-15 17:46:51 -0500, Weird Beard <weird_beard [at] worldnet.att.net>
> said:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:41:32 GMT, Zolak of Twylo
>> <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote the following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
>>> On 2006-02-15 17:39:07 -0500, Weird Beard
>>> <weird_beard [at] worldnet.att.net> said:
>>>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:14:05 GMT, efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr wrote the
>>>> following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
>>>>
>>>>> Finally came across HP saga and managed to read them in a fortnight.
>>>>> I gathered some questions. First of them deals with the time
>>>>> backwards thing (prisoner of azkaban). Why none had thaught of it in
>>>>> HBP after Dumbledore died. Is this technique went out of order after
>>>>> what happened in the Ministry of Magic or it simply doesn't work
>>>>> against extreme events such as death....
>>>>
>>>> You can only go back and affect the outcome of things that haven't
>>>> already happened.
>>>
>>> Wasn't Buckbeak beheaded? It only changed AFTER they used the
>>> time-turner.
>> No. He was set free making the executionher so mad that he swung his axe
>> into the fence in a rage. His escape, naturally, made Hagrid shout for
>> joy.
>
>
> That's what happened AFTER the time turner was used.


It happened BEFORE as well, BECAUSE Harry and Hermione were destined to use
her time tuner. This is shown by the rocks Hermione (from the future) threw
though Hagrid's window to warn themselves (in the present) that DD, Fudge,
and McNair were approaching Hagrid's cottage, and the fact Hermione almost
saw her (future) self hiding in the woods behind Hagrid's. Harry and
Hermione (from the future) were there all along to rescue Buckpeak, while
they also (in present time) THOUGHT they saw him executed instead.

That also shows that anything that has already happened for real, like DD
dying, can't be changed by using a Time Tuner because it wouldn't have
happened in the first place. This greatly limits the power of the Time
Tuners since they can't really change the past, unless they already did
before even used.

Also all the Time Tuners were destroyed in OotP during the battle in the
Dept of Mysteries.

Nuki Mouse
--
"This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
"Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it," S. Tallentyre, summarizing Voltaire's views
Re: New comer questions [message #222825 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 08:26
Kami  
Magic_mom wrote:
> And anyway, if you had read
> the books completely, you would know that in book 5, The Order of the
> Phoenix, the time turners were destroyed in the fight at the ministry.
>
> M_m

Yes; the Ministry's store of time-turners had been destroyed in OOTP,
including the time-turner that Hermione had in POA which she handed in
before the end of the book, (pg. 430).
Re: New comer questions [message #222832 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 10:01
Toon  
On 15 Feb 2006 14:14:05 -0800, efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr wrote:

>Finally came across HP saga and managed to read them in a fortnight.
>I gathered some questions. First of them deals with the time backwards
>thing (prisoner of azkaban). Why none had thaught of it in HBP after
>Dumbledore died. Is this technique went out of order after what
>happened in the Ministry of Magic or it simply doesn't work against
>extreme events such as death....

DD died. You're not supposed to change history. MOM frowns on it,
assuming a Time Turner survived (surely one was you in the field,
currently in use?) DD died for a reason. Things happen for a reason,
other things don't happen for other reasons. Much it up, and you
return to a world decimated by Vodelmort. and one pissed off DD who
wanted to die in the first place. TT was used to save living beings
and prevent death, not undo necessary deaths.

>Next, any clue on the Potter (well James Potter) family ?

Dead. Deceased. Chowing down with the Foudners in the next
Dimension.

>Though The Order Of The Phoenix was all action, HBP was much more
>slower and has actually ended with too many questions, new plots
>(almost in each chapter). For example who is Dumbledore (you can also
>put Snape which is obvious) exactly ? All hopes on book 7.


Book 6 is like part 1 to Book 7's part 2.

Dd is an old dude who asked Snape to kill him.

Snape is the HBP, who's really on the side of . . .
Re: New comer questions [message #222833 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 10:04
Toon  
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 20:14:46 -0500, Zolak of Twylo
<dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote:

>On 2006-02-15 17:46:51 -0500, Weird Beard <weird_beard [at] worldnet.att.net> said:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:41:32 GMT, Zolak of Twylo
>> <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote the following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
>>> On 2006-02-15 17:39:07 -0500, Weird Beard
>>> <weird_beard [at] worldnet.att.net> said:
>>>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:14:05 GMT, efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr wrote the
>>>> following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
>>>>
>>>>> Finally came across HP saga and managed to read them in a fortnight.
>>>>> I gathered some questions. First of them deals with the time
>>>>> backwards thing (prisoner of azkaban). Why none had thaught of it in
>>>>> HBP after Dumbledore died. Is this technique went out of order after
>>>>> what happened in the Ministry of Magic or it simply doesn't work
>>>>> against extreme events such as death....
>>>>
>>>> You can only go back and affect the outcome of things that haven't
>>>> already happened.
>>>
>>> Wasn't Buckbeak beheaded? It only changed AFTER they used the
>>> time-turner.
>> No. He was set free making the executionher so mad that he swung his
>> axe into the fence in a rage. His escape, naturally, made Hagrid shout
>> for joy.
>
>
>That's what happened AFTER the time turner was used.

Right. They used it to keep Buckbeak alive. There's never a time
when he's dead, because future H & H always show up to save the day.

HSqaured uses time travel to preserve the timeline. It's hinted but
never stated Buckbeak dies, allowing for the temporal rescue without
altering anything.
Re: New comer questions [message #222834 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 10:09
Toon  
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:16:27 GMT, "Imagun Aqilya" <dingle [at] dongle.net>
wrote:

>
>"Weird Beard" <weird_beard [at] worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:Xns976BD00DA8A11weirdbeardworldnetat [at] 204.127.36.1...
>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 01:14:46 GMT, Zolak of Twylo
>> <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote the following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
>>
>>
>>>> No. He was set free making the executionher so mad that he swung his
>>>> axe into the fence in a rage. His escape, naturally, made Hagrid
>>>> shout for joy.
>>>
>>>
>>> That's what happened AFTER the time turner was used.
>>
>>
>> Yes, but it's also what happened in the final part of chapter 16 and the
>> start of chapter 17, so it also happened BEFORE they time-turnded.
>>
>> Coincidence, you say?
>>
>> Well, then, what stopped the dementors in chapter 20 if it wasn't Harry's
>> spell from chapter 21?
>
>
>This is an example of the paradox that i dont' like when time travel
>scenarios try to get too tricky. Harry goes back in time and ends up saving
>his own life but logically speaking he would have been killed (or soul
>sucked) and therefore unable to go back in time to save himself. The only
>way I can rationalize it is by considering that the first time through the
>scenario someone else must have saved Harry et al from the dementors. The
>subsequent time travel disrupted events to such a degree that that person
>wasn't there to save them making it neccesary for Harry to do the saving.
>As far as Buckbeak goes. There is no reason to think that the first time
>through the scenario he wasn't beheaded. Even DD said that if they were
>successful, two innocent lives could be saved. If BB wasn't in jeopardy he
>would not need saving.
>

There is no first time. Harry saves himself, thus enabling him to go
back in tiem and save himelf. There is never a time when anybody else
does it. There cna't be, ebcause Harry saves himself and co. You're
viewing time as a oen way street. it loops back. A Time Loop
prevents these so called paradoxes. A leads to B, B leads to C, and C
leads back to A, causing B. There's never a time when C leads to D.
There is no D. it's liek the odl computer programming:
Step 1 Print Time Travel is Not That Tricky.
Step 2 Go Back to Step 1.
Step 3 End

You'll get a neevr ending printout of Time Travel is Not That Tricky.
You never reach Step 3 because you go back. Buckbeak never dies
because thye go back. The Dementors are defeated because they go
back. It's a neevr ending infinite loop. after he saves hismelf,
past harry eventually goes bakc in time, saves Bucky, hismelf, and
then flie sup to free Sirius. That's it. There's never a moment when
thigns went differently. Closed loop. Time flows backwards instea
dof rbanching off into another reality.
Re: New comer questions [message #222836 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 10:14
Toon  
On 15 Feb 2006 21:20:38 -0800, "Dumbledore's Man" <cspirit [at] gmail.com>
wrote:

>Regarding time-turner episode, I have always viewed it as a single
>chain of events. I mean, when trio hears the sounds of axe and hagrid,
>buckbeak has already escaped due to *another* trio. When harry sees the
>powerful patronous, it is created by *another* harry. Due to
>time-turner, two instances of harry-ron-hermione exist simultaneously,
>but the 'context' or 'frame of reference' was always one. They never
>CHANGED what happened. We never change what happen due to time-turner.
>Due to time-turner, things HAPPEN in a certain way.
>
>Ofcourse, this leaves the question 'what if harry sees harry?' open. I
>don't want to guess answers; but then that's why it's so important that
>you must not be seen. Because, eventhough you alter a lot using
>time-turner, you essentially don't alter anything.


Close, you can alter it (As JK mentions via Hemry via McG), but you
won't like the outcome. Thinsg happen or don't for a reason. Messing
things up creates problems. The H's were lucky. They preserved a
predestined history. Just because they didn't alter the past, doesn't
mean they couldn't. Marty mcFly never altered things the secodnt rip
to 1955. He already knew what was happening, and preserved the time
line he previosuly altered. He altere dit the firts tiem around,
preserved it the second.

Harry did see Harry, but thought it was James.

You don't get noticed so people don't notice you leaving through oen
door, only to appear out another door 3 secodns later. hemry barey
kept the boys sussicons down with her popping into existence all of a
sudden. You don't let yourself get seen, so you don't second guess
your actions, wodnering if you'll go back to fix the mistake.
Re: New comer questions [message #222843 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 14:23
efuritafr  
Toon wrote:
> On 15 Feb 2006 14:14:05 -0800, efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr wrote:
>
> >Finally came across HP saga and managed to read them in a fortnight.
> >I gathered some questions. First of them deals with the time backwards
> >thing (prisoner of azkaban). Why none had thaught of it in HBP after
> >Dumbledore died. Is this technique went out of order after what
> >happened in the Ministry of Magic or it simply doesn't work against
> >extreme events such as death....
>
> DD died. You're not supposed to change history. MOM frowns on it,
> assuming a Time Turner survived (surely one was you in the field,
> currently in use?) DD died for a reason. Things happen for a reason,
> other things don't happen for other reasons. Much it up, and you
> return to a world decimated by Vodelmort. and one pissed off DD who
> wanted to die in the first place. TT was used to save living beings
> and prevent death, not undo necessary deaths.

Thanks to all people for their answers.
If I well understood, time travelling must be performed before things
would happen (I remember DD saying something like this : SB to escape
before the dementors would arrive). Besides, the time division in the
Ministry of Magic went out of order.

> >Next, any clue on the Potter (well James Potter) family ?
>
> Dead. Deceased. Chowing down with the Foudners in the next
> Dimension.

My question was about the Potter family : James family. Did Harry had
grandparents from his father ?
We have much more information on Black family than the Potter. For what
purpose ?

> >Though The Order Of The Phoenix was all action, HBP was much more
> >slower and has actually ended with too many questions, new plots
> >(almost in each chapter). For example who is Dumbledore (you can also
> >put Snape which is obvious) exactly ? All hopes on book 7.
>
>
> Book 6 is like part 1 to Book 7's part 2.
>
> Dd is an old dude who asked Snape to kill him.
>
> Snape is the HBP, who's really on the side of . . .
Re: New comer questions [message #222847 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 15:42
efuritafr  
Weird Beard wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:14:05 GMT, efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr wrote the following in
> alt.fan.harry-potter:
>
> > Finally came across HP saga and managed to read them in a fortnight.
> > I gathered some questions. First of them deals with the time backwards
> > thing (prisoner of azkaban). Why none had thaught of it in HBP after
> > Dumbledore died. Is this technique went out of order after what
> > happened in the Ministry of Magic or it simply doesn't work against
> > extreme events such as death....
>
> You can only go back and affect the outcome of things that haven't already
> happened.
>
> > Next, any clue on the Potter (well James Potter) family ?
> > Though The Order Of The Phoenix was all action, HBP was much more
> > slower and has actually ended with too many questions, new plots
> > (almost in each chapter). For example who is Dumbledore (you can also
> > put Snape which is obvious) exactly ? All hopes on book 7.
> >
>
> I don't understand this. It sounds a bit...mistranslated. Maybe if you
> wrote it in French someone could answer it better than I can.

It was a reflection rather than a question. The first five books share
the same plot : one goal to achieve (mainly keeping something save,
althoug in GOF it is about Voldemort coming back) + introducing new
characters + spots on the characters.
HBP is actually a prologue (a big one) to Book 7.

Thanks for your answers
Re: New comer questions [message #222852 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 17:30
Nuki Mouse  
<efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:1140096190.161477.93360 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
>> >Next, any clue on the Potter (well James Potter) family ?
>>
>> Dead. Deceased. Chowing down with the Foudners in the next
>> Dimension.
>
> My question was about the Potter family : James family. Did Harry had
> grandparents from his father ?

The standard two, but they are dead. JKR has never said when or how they
died. They were still alive when James and Sirius were at Howarts though,
since Sirius ran away from home and stayed with Jame's parents when he was
16 until he got his own palce at 17. Even after that he routinely ate Sunday
Dinner at the Potters. See HP&OotP, chapter 6, page 111. The actual page
number could be off by a page or two, since it is from the English Language
version, and not the French.

It could be that the Jame's parents also resisted or fought against LV and
were killed by the DE before LV killed Harry's parents. All that is known
for sure is that Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia were Harry's only living
relatives when his parents were murdered, as stated in the first book,
chapter 1, page 13.

> We have much more information on Black family than the Potter. For what
> purpose ?

Because it was important to the plot of the story that we (the readers) know
more about the Black family. After all, Number 12 Grimwald Place is the
Black family home, and the fact that his family was staunch Pure-bloods and
Dark Magicians is important for understanding Sirius's character.

Nuki Mouse
--
"This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
"Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it," S. Tallentyre, summarizing Voltaire's views.



--
"This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
"Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it," S. Tallentyre, summarizing Voltaire's views.
Re: New comer questions - Some Mild Spoilers [message #222856 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 18:01
booma  
efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr wrote:
> Toon wrote:
> > On 15 Feb 2006 14:14:05 -0800, efuritafr [at] yahoo.fr wrote:
> >
> > >Finally came across HP saga and managed to read them in a fortnight.
> > >I gathered some questions. First of them deals with the time backwards
> > >thing (prisoner of azkaban). Why none had thaught of it in HBP after
> > >Dumbledore died. Is this technique went out of order after what
> > >happened in the Ministry of Magic or it simply doesn't work against
> > >extreme events such as death....
> >
> > DD died. You're not supposed to change history. MOM frowns on it,
> > assuming a Time Turner survived (surely one was you in the field,
> > currently in use?) DD died for a reason. Things happen for a reason,
> > other things don't happen for other reasons. Much it up, and you
> > return to a world decimated by Vodelmort. and one pissed off DD who
> > wanted to die in the first place. TT was used to save living beings
> > and prevent death, not undo necessary deaths.
>
> Thanks to all people for their answers.
> If I well understood, time travelling must be performed before things
> would happen (I remember DD saying something like this : SB to escape
> before the dementors would arrive). Besides, the time division in the
> Ministry of Magic went out of order.
>
> > >Next, any clue on the Potter (well James Potter) family ?
> >
> > Dead. Deceased. Chowing down with the Foudners in the next
> > Dimension.
>
> My question was about the Potter family : James family. Did Harry had
> grandparents from his father ?

We don't know much about Harry's family, other than he has no living
relatives. We know his mother has a sister (Petunia) and she refers to
her parents when she talks about Lily receiving a letter from Hogwarts.

We hear about Sirius spending time with James's family

> We have much more information on Black family than the Potter. For what
> purpose ?
>
Because the black family has different connections to a lot of
Slytherins. One of his ancestors is Phineas Nigellus, an ex head of
Hogwarts, and the lines of heritage extend to Sirius, his cousins
Bellatrix Lestrange (the death eater responsible for Sirius Death), her
sister Narcissa, who is married to Lucius Malfoy (Death Eater and one
of VM's Right hand Men) and his son Draco (who is responsible for
getting Death Eaters into Hogwarts in HBP). The black family tree is
generally pretty dark.

> > >Though The Order Of The Phoenix was all action, HBP was much more
> > >slower and has actually ended with too many questions, new plots
> > >(almost in each chapter). For example who is Dumbledore (you can also
> > >put Snape which is obvious) exactly ? All hopes on book 7.
> >
> >
> > Book 6 is like part 1 to Book 7's part 2.
> >
> > Dd is an old dude who asked Snape to kill him.
> >
> > Snape is the HBP, who's really on the side of . . .

Let's not go there!
Re: New comer questions [message #222877 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 19:45
Fish Eye no Miko  
Kami wrote:

> Magic_mom wrote:
>
>> And anyway, if you had read
>> the books completely, you would know that in book 5, The Order
>> of the Phoenix, the time turners were destroyed in the fight at the
>> ministry.
>
> Yes; the Ministry's store of time-turners had been destroyed in
> OOTP, including the time-turner that Hermione had in POA which she
> handed in before the end of the book, (pg. 430).

I wonder if Jo did that to quell all the "Maybe they used/will use time
travel to..." theories.

Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"When Catherine thinks you're too gay, you're too gay."
-Rob Fontenot, aka The Midnight Rambler, RATMM.
Re: New comer questions - Some Mild Spoilers [message #222881 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 20:35
tbarry22  
JKR has stated in numerous interviews that she needed Harry to be an
orphan. The Potters (James' parents and extended family) are not
relevant to the story. Harry's grandparents on Lily's side also are
not relevant, so she doesn't plan to go into any history for them.
Re: New comer questions [message #222882 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 20:46
David Harmon  
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:16:27 GMT in alt.fan.harry-potter, "Imagun
Aqilya" <dingle [at] dongle.net> wrote,
>As far as Buckbeak goes. There is no reason to think that the first time
>through the scenario he wasn't beheaded. Even DD said that if they were
>successful, two innocent lives could be saved.

Harry and Hermione went through that time twice. For everybody
else, it was only once.

So either Buckbeak was beheaded, or he wasn't. He wasn't.
Dumbledore knew he wasn't but not necessarily why, but Harry and
Hermione did not know. The second innocent life would be Sirius,
and Dumbledore did not know when he said that whether H&H would
succeed in saving him or not.

If Buckbeak had been beheaded there would have been no saving him.
Re: New comer questions [message #222887 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 21:10
cwlNOSPAM  
In article <wK3Jf.12324$MJ.8861 [at] fed1read07>, "Fish Eye no Miko"
<fisheye [at] deadmoon.circus> wrote:

>Kami wrote:
>
>> Magic_mom wrote:
>>
>>> And anyway, if you had read
>>> the books completely, you would know that in book 5, The Order
>>> of the Phoenix, the time turners were destroyed in the fight at the
>>> ministry.
>>
>> Yes; the Ministry's store of time-turners had been destroyed in
>> OOTP, including the time-turner that Hermione had in POA which she
>> handed in before the end of the book, (pg. 430).
>
>I wonder if Jo did that to quell all the "Maybe they used/will use time
>travel to..." theories.

Sounds plausible. But, if JKR should, at some point, find that she has
written herself into a corner, she might yet use a time-turner in one of
the backstories to rectify the situation.
--
Chris
Re: New comer questions [message #222889 ] Do, 16 Februar 2006 21:39
Zolak of Twylo  
On 2006-02-16 13:45:17 -0500, "Fish Eye no Miko"
<fisheye [at] deadmoon.circus> said:

> Kami wrote:
>
>> Magic_mom wrote:
>>
>>> And anyway, if you had read
>>> the books completely, you would know that in book 5, The Order
>>> of the Phoenix, the time turners were destroyed in the fight at the
>>> ministry.
>>
>> Yes; the Ministry's store of time-turners had been destroyed in
>> OOTP, including the time-turner that Hermione had in POA which she
>> handed in before the end of the book, (pg. 430).
>
> I wonder if Jo did that to quell all the "Maybe they used/will use time
> travel to..." theories.
>
> Catherine Johnson.


I think it's quite obvious that she did just that. She introduced a
nice little plot twist,
but it could possibly get in the way later on, so she had them destroyed.

--
Enjoy,

Zolak of Twylo
Re: New comer questions [message #222920 ] Fr, 17 Februar 2006 07:57
Imagun Aqilya  
"Toon" <toon [at] toon.com> wrote in message
news:r1g8v1tv9saltgbvj8edid3iqofos4fiii [at] 4ax.com...
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:16:27 GMT, "Imagun Aqilya" <dingle [at] dongle.net>
> wrote:
>

> There is no first time. Harry saves himself, thus enabling him to go
> back in tiem and save himelf. There is never a time when anybody else
> does it. There cna't be, ebcause Harry saves himself and co. You're
> viewing time as a oen way street. it loops back. A Time Loop
> prevents these so called paradoxes. A leads to B, B leads to C, and C
> leads back to A, causing B. There's never a time when C leads to D.
> There is no D. it's liek the odl computer programming:
> Step 1 Print Time Travel is Not That Tricky.
> Step 2 Go Back to Step 1.
> Step 3 End
>
> You'll get a neevr ending printout of Time Travel is Not That Tricky.
> You never reach Step 3 because you go back. Buckbeak never dies
> because thye go back. The Dementors are defeated because they go
> back. It's a neevr ending infinite loop. after he saves hismelf,
> past harry eventually goes bakc in time, saves Bucky, hismelf, and
> then flie sup to free Sirius. That's it. There's never a moment when
> thigns went differently. Closed loop. Time flows backwards instea
> dof rbanching off into another reality.


you've got the order wrong in your computer analogy. It would be more like
this:

1. string a="Time travel is tricky"
2. Print string a
3. End
4. string a="Time travel is not tricky"
5. Goto 2

you never get to step 5 because the progam ends at step 3. You never go back
to print ' Time travel is not tricky ' because the program never gets there.
It's like this:
Harry and Co. come out of the tree
Lupin sees the moon and transforms
Sirius chases him off as a dog
Harry follows Sirius down to the lake
The dementors come and suck everyone's soul out
Snape brings the souless husks back to the hospital wing
Harry and company are in no shape to go back in time to save themselves
The series of books comes to a premature end since souless husks who sit
around and drool all day long aren't as interesting as adolescent wizards
fighting dark forces.

Here's how I see it happening:
The kids leave Hagrid's and see the axe fall
Sirius drags Ron and Scabbers into the tree
Harry and Hermione follow them in and wind up at the Shrieking shack
Lupin shows up, the story of Pettigrew gets told and they all decide to go
back to the castle to clear Sirius's name
They exit the tree and Lupin sees the moon
Snape finds the map in Lupins office and heads towards the tree
Sirius chases off werewolf Lupin
Sirius collapses at the lake, harry and Hermione follow him there
The dementors show up and beging menacing everyone
Snape shows up just in time, chases off the dementors and brings everyone
back to the hospital wing
Dumbledore suggests the kids go back in time to save two innocent lives
They go back in time and disrupt the timeline almost immediatley (think: the
butterfly effect sorta thing. They do something seemingly innocuous that has
an effect on Snape that will cause him to show up at Lupin's office a half
hour earlier
They go down and save Buckbeak then wait around for a while
Snape shows up at the tree and proceeds to the shrieking shack where he is
knocked out
Etc, etc
The dementors attack but Snape isn't there to save the day so Harry has to
do it

Time travel causes an infinite loop in time. Those three hours will be
played over and over again forever. They go back in time to save themselves
so they can go back in time to save themselves so they can go back... etc.
The first time through, Snape chases off the dementors and Harry sees him
blurrily but not for certain, only enough to peak his interest to see what
happened so he goes down to the lake after he goes back in time.
The second time through Harry has to cast his patronus to chase off the
dementors since Snape is not there and his past self blurrily sees himself
and the stag, not clearly but enough to peak his interest to see what
happened so he goes down to the lake after he goes back in time.
The third time through and each subsequent time are pretty much the same as
the second time. Harry sees himself cast the patronus which causes him to go
down to the lake after he time travels where he casts the patronus.
At this point the timeline is stable since the same thing keeps repeating
over and over again. We hear the story from the perspective of someone
observing the stable timeline so we see Buckbeak getting saved, Snape
showing up at the shack and getting knocked out and Harry casting the
patronus that saves them all. Anything else that may have occured in the
loop before the timeline stablizes is discarded. It becomes overwritten and
is treated as though it never happened.

Time travel Paradox has always been a pet peeve of mine. Impossible things
can't happen, even in a world of magic. Dead people (or souless catatonics)
cannot go back in time to save themselves. Something else had to have
happened to save them and my little fabrication with Snape fulfills that, at
least to my satisfaction.
Re: New comer questions [message #222921 ] Fr, 17 Februar 2006 08:10
Imagun Aqilya  
"David Harmon" <source [at] netcom.com> wrote in message
news:448dd39a.385246562 [at] news.west.earthlink.net...
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:16:27 GMT in alt.fan.harry-potter, "Imagun
> Aqilya" <dingle [at] dongle.net> wrote,
>>As far as Buckbeak goes. There is no reason to think that the first time
>>through the scenario he wasn't beheaded. Even DD said that if they were
>>successful, two innocent lives could be saved.
>
> Harry and Hermione went through that time twice. For everybody
> else, it was only once.
>
> So either Buckbeak was beheaded, or he wasn't. He wasn't.
> Dumbledore knew he wasn't but not necessarily why, but Harry and
> Hermione did not know. The second innocent life would be Sirius,
> and Dumbledore did not know when he said that whether H&H would
> succeed in saving him or not.
>
> If Buckbeak had been beheaded there would have been no saving him.
>
>

I dont' see why not. BB could easily have been killed the first time but
saved from death after H and Hr went back in time. What's to stop it?
Re: New comer questions [message #222930 ] Fr, 17 Februar 2006 14:28
scenario_dave  
> Time travel Paradox has always been a pet peeve of mine. Impossible things
> can't happen, even in a world of magic. Dead people (or souless catatonics)
> cannot go back in time to save themselves. Something else had to have
> happened to save them and my little fabrication with Snape fulfills that, at
> least to my satisfaction.

Time travel is only a problem if you believe in cause and effect. I've
read someplace that there are effects in quantum physics where cause
and effect doesn't exist or works differently.
Re: New comer questions [message #222938 ] Fr, 17 Februar 2006 18:48
David Harmon  
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:10:34 GMT in alt.fan.harry-potter, "Imagun
Aqilya" <dingle [at] dongle.net> wrote,
>I dont' see why not. BB could easily have been killed the first time but
>saved from death after H and Hr went back in time. What's to stop it?

What's to stop it is that Buckbeak did not travel in time. He did
not use the time turner; only Harry and Hermione did.

So Buckbeak only experienced the events of that time period once,
and from only one viewpoint. What happened, happened. For him
there was no "first" versus "second".
Re: New comer questions [message #222963 ] Sa, 18 Februar 2006 02:37
richard e white  
Fish Eye no Miko wrote:

> Kami wrote:
>
> > Magic_mom wrote:
> >
> >> And anyway, if you had read
> >> the books completely, you would know that in book 5, The Order
> >> of the Phoenix, the time turners were destroyed in the fight at the
> >> ministry.
> >
> > Yes; the Ministry's store of time-turners had been destroyed in
> > OOTP, including the time-turner that Hermione had in POA which she
> > handed in before the end of the book, (pg. 430).
>
> I wonder if Jo did that to quell all the "Maybe they used/will use time
> travel to..." theories.
>
> Catherine Johnson.
> --
> fenm at cox dot net
> "When Catherine thinks you're too gay, you're too gay."
> -Rob Fontenot, aka The Midnight Rambler, RATMM.

That is part of it. But JKR also said that she regrets putting time travle
in. But either way the time travle had to be out of the picture before the
final Battle.


--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: New comer questions [message #222964 ] Sa, 18 Februar 2006 02:44
richard e white  
Imagun Aqilya wrote:

> "Weird Beard" <weird_beard [at] worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns976BD00DA8A11weirdbeardworldnetat [at] 204.127.36.1...
> > On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 01:14:46 GMT, Zolak of Twylo
> > <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote the following in alt.fan.harry-potter:
> >
> >
> >>> No. He was set free making the executionher so mad that he swung his
> >>> axe into the fence in a rage. His escape, naturally, made Hagrid
> >>> shout for joy.
> >>
> >>
> >> That's what happened AFTER the time turner was used.
> >
> >
> > Yes, but it's also what happened in the final part of chapter 16 and the
> > start of chapter 17, so it also happened BEFORE they time-turnded.
> >
> > Coincidence, you say?
> >
> > Well, then, what stopped the dementors in chapter 20 if it wasn't Harry's
> > spell from chapter 21?
>
> This is an example of the paradox that i dont' like when time travel
> scenarios try to get too tricky. Harry goes back in time and ends up saving
> his own life but logically speaking he would have been killed (or soul
> sucked) and therefore unable to go back in time to save himself. The only
> way I can rationalize it is by considering that the first time through the
> scenario someone else must have saved Harry et al from the dementors. The
> subsequent time travel disrupted events to such a degree that that person
> wasn't there to save them making it neccesary for Harry to do the saving.
> As far as Buckbeak goes. There is no reason to think that the first time
> through the scenario he wasn't beheaded. Even DD said that if they were
> successful, two innocent lives could be saved. If BB wasn't in jeopardy he
> would not need saving.

That is not how it works. The person that saved harry the first time was
harry. Because he did travle back. the problum is that your looking at it
from one point perspective. But this is also where it depends on the time
theary you use.
Basicly you can only go back if you did go back. This is part of the reason
that JKR realized that useing the time turner was a bad idea. To many problums
come up in this kind of story and unless you are really good on the subject you
should stay away from them.
--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: New comer questions [message #222967 ] Sa, 18 Februar 2006 03:07
richard e white  
Imagun Aqilya wrote:

> "Toon" <toon [at] toon.com> wrote in message
> news:r1g8v1tv9saltgbvj8edid3iqofos4fiii [at] 4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:16:27 GMT, "Imagun Aqilya" <dingle [at] dongle.net>
> > wrote:
> >
>
> > There is no first time. Harry saves himself, thus enabling him to go
> > back in tiem and save himelf. There is never a time when anybody else
> > does it. There cna't be, ebcause Harry saves himself and co. You're
> > viewing time as a oen way street. it loops back. A Time Loop
> > prevents these so called paradoxes. A leads to B, B leads to C, and C
> > leads back to A, causing B. There's never a time when C leads to D.
> > There is no D. it's liek the odl computer programming:
> > Step 1 Print Time Travel is Not That Tricky.
> > Step 2 Go Back to Step 1.
> > Step 3 End
> >
> > You'll get a neevr ending printout of Time Travel is Not That Tricky.
> > You never reach Step 3 because you go back. Buckbeak never dies
> > because thye go back. The Dementors are defeated because they go
> > back. It's a neevr ending infinite loop. after he saves hismelf,
> > past harry eventually goes bakc in time, saves Bucky, hismelf, and
> > then flie sup to free Sirius. That's it. There's never a moment when
> > thigns went differently. Closed loop. Time flows backwards instea
> > dof rbanching off into another reality.
>
> you've got the order wrong in your computer analogy. It would be more like
> this:
>
> 1. string a="Time travel is tricky"
> 2. Print string a
> 3. End
> 4. string a="Time travel is not tricky"
> 5. Goto 2
>
> you never get to step 5 because the progam ends at step 3. You never go back
> to print ' Time travel is not tricky ' because the program never gets there.
> It's like this:
> No. It is like this.

future Harry and HG arive in the entrance hall and run into a closet.
present harry and co go to hagrids under the cloak.
future Harry and HG Hide in the edge of the forest and wait for the right time
to save Buckbeak. Present Harry and co mistake the killing. but really the
post was hit.
move on with two harrys and HGs doing the diffrent things in the book to arive
at .

> and Co. come out of the tree
> Lupin sees the moon and transforms
> Sirius chases him off as a dog
> future Harry and HG with buckbeak move to hagrid's.

> Harry follows Sirius down to the lake
> The dementors come and future Harry cast his spell to save everyone.

present harry and co are taken to the med wing.
While future Harry and HG wait for the right time to save black.
then the future Harry and HG go back to the med wing and become the present set
as the set in the med wing wake up and hop back in time. It is easyer to
understand if you slice your book up and make it so you only read that part
once. but it would make little sence until you know what you are reading is a
time loop. The problum is that most people still think that you have to live
through a time before some one can come from the future back to you. But in
time travle this is what you are doing if you look at it from the other way
around.

snip

>
> Time travel causes an infinite loop in time. Those three hours will be
> played over and over again forever.

No they only happen once at the same time. There is no first or second.


> They go back in time to save themselves
> so they can go back in time to save themselves so they can go back... etc.
> The first time through, Snape chases off the dementors and Harry sees him
> blurrily but not for certain, only enough to peak his interest to see what
> happened so he goes down to the lake after he goes back in time.
> The second time through Harry has to cast his patronus to chase off the
> dementors since Snape is not there and his past self blurrily sees himself
> and the stag, not clearly but enough to peak his interest to see what
> happened so he goes down to the lake after he goes back in time.
> The third time through and each subsequent time are pretty much the same as
> the second time. Harry sees himself cast the patronus which causes him to go
> down to the lake after he time travels where he casts the patronus.
>

You read to many bad time travle sic fi stuff.



> At this point the timeline is stable since the same thing keeps repeating
> over and over again. We hear the story from the perspective of someone
> observing the stable timeline so we see Buckbeak getting saved, Snape
> showing up at the shack and getting knocked out and Harry casting the
> patronus that saves them all. Anything else that may have occured in the
> loop before the timeline stablizes is discarded. It becomes overwritten and
> is treated as though it never happened.
>
> Time travel Paradox has always been a pet peeve of mine. Impossible things
> can't happen, even in a world of magic. Dead people (or souless catatonics)
> cannot go back in time to save themselves. Something else had to have
> happened to save them and my little fabrication with Snape fulfills that, at
> least to my satisfaction.




--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: New comer questions [message #222968 ] Sa, 18 Februar 2006 03:10
richard e white  
Dumbledore's Man wrote:

> Regarding time-turner episode, I have always viewed it as a single
> chain of events. I mean, when trio hears the sounds of axe and hagrid,
> buckbeak has already escaped due to *another* trio. When harry sees the
> powerful patronous, it is created by *another* harry. Due to
> time-turner, two instances of harry-ron-hermione exist simultaneously,
> but the 'context' or 'frame of reference' was always one. They never
> CHANGED what happened. We never change what happen due to time-turner.
> Due to time-turner, things HAPPEN in a certain way.
>
> Ofcourse, this leaves the question 'what if harry sees harry?' open. I
> don't want to guess answers; but then that's why it's so important that
> you must not be seen. Because, eventhough you alter a lot using
> time-turner, you essentially don't alter anything.
>
> Therotically, you can go back to Voldy's birth time and kill him there.
> Or you can prevent Merope from giving Sr. Tom Riddle Love Potion.

We don't know that. even if the Time turners where that strong and we
don't know that they are, The event would only happen if it had already
had happend.


> But
> if we go by what i said above, this doesn't seem much possible.
>
> and regarding dumbledore, 'To the well organised mind, death is the
> next great adventure.' I believe nobody could've killed him had he not
> wanted to die. The reasons will be clear in book7.




--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: New comer questions [message #222969 ] Sa, 18 Februar 2006 03:12
richard e white  
Toon wrote:

> On 15 Feb 2006 21:20:38 -0800, "Dumbledore's Man" <cspirit [at] gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Regarding time-turner episode, I have always viewed it as a single
> >chain of events. I mean, when trio hears the sounds of axe and hagrid,
> >buckbeak has already escaped due to *another* trio. When harry sees the
> >powerful patronous, it is created by *another* harry. Due to
> >time-turner, two instances of harry-ron-hermione exist simultaneously,
> >but the 'context' or 'frame of reference' was always one. They never
> >CHANGED what happened. We never change what happen due to time-turner.
> >Due to time-turner, things HAPPEN in a certain way.
> >
> >Ofcourse, this leaves the question 'what if harry sees harry?' open. I
> >don't want to guess answers; but then that's why it's so important that
> >you must not be seen. Because, eventhough you alter a lot using
> >time-turner, you essentially don't alter anything.
>
> Close, you can alter it (As JK mentions via Hemry via McG), but you
> won't like the outcome. Thinsg happen or don't for a reason. Messing
> things up creates problems. The H's were lucky. They preserved a
> predestined history. Just because they didn't alter the past, doesn't
> mean they couldn't. Marty mcFly never altered things the secodnt rip
> to 1955. He already knew what was happening, and preserved the time
> line he previosuly altered. He altere dit the firts tiem around,
> preserved it the second.
>
> Harry did see Harry, but thought it was James.
>
> You don't get noticed so people don't notice you leaving through oen
> door, only to appear out another door 3 secodns later. hemry barey
> kept the boys sussicons down with her popping into existence all of a
> sudden. You don't let yourself get seen, so you don't second guess
> your actions, wodnering if you'll go back to fix the mistake.

Not a good idea to use one theary of time travle to try and prove another.
The bit with marty was based on multi dementions and he just moved to the
one that fit what he did.


--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: New comer questions [message #222987 ] Sa, 18 Februar 2006 06:42
chappy  
Imagun Aqilya wrote:
> "Toon" <toon [at] toon.com> wrote in message
> news:r1g8v1tv9saltgbvj8edid3iqofos4fiii [at] 4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:16:27 GMT, "Imagun Aqilya" <dingle [at] dongle.net>
> > wrote:
> >
>
> > There is no first time. Harry saves himself, thus enabling him to go
> > back in tiem and save himelf. There is never a time when anybody else
> > does it. There cna't be, ebcause Harry saves himself and co. You're
> > viewing time as a oen way street. it loops back. A Time Loop
> > prevents these so called paradoxes. A leads to B, B leads to C, and C
> > leads back to A, causing B. There's never a time when C leads to D.
> > There is no D. it's liek the odl computer programming:
> > Step 1 Print Time Travel is Not That Tricky.
> > Step 2 Go Back to Step 1.
> > Step 3 End
> >
> > You'll get a neevr ending printout of Time Travel is Not That Tricky.
> > You never reach Step 3 because you go back. Buckbeak never dies
> > because thye go back. The Dementors are defeated because they go
> > back. It's a neevr ending infinite loop. after he saves hismelf,
> > past harry eventually goes bakc in time, saves Bucky, hismelf, and
> > then flie sup to free Sirius. That's it. There's never a moment when
> > thigns went differently. Closed loop. Time flows backwards instea
> > dof rbanching off into another reality.
>
>
> you've got the order wrong in your computer analogy. It would be more like
> this:
>
> 1. string a="Time travel is tricky"
> 2. Print string a
> 3. End
> 4. string a="Time travel is not tricky"
> 5. Goto 2
>
Time travel is more complicated than that. If you read some of
Einsteins theory you will realize that it is not as simple as serial
program where you pass through a loop once and then pass through a loop
a second time with different results. It is more like parallel
processing. Time is a hard thing to think wrap our minds around. You
don't go back in time. You go back to a time. The people that don't
go back in time can't experience something twice. When you go back you
take yourself not back but to the original time it happened the first
time. You, a different person than the one who is experiencing the
present, experiences the past up to the point were the person in the
present goes to the past and then everything continues forward
normally. Things can't change because you where always there affecting
the present if you went back into the past. Now this will alll break
down if you start somehow interfere with your presents self from making
the choice to go back in time. That is when all hell breaks loose and
JK seemed to grasp time travel very well when she wrote about it.

> you never get to step 5 because the progam ends at step 3. You never go back
> to print ' Time travel is not tricky ' because the program never gets there.
> It's like this:
> Harry and Co. come out of the tree
> Lupin sees the moon and transforms
> Sirius chases him off as a dog
> Harry follows Sirius down to the lake
> The dementors come and suck everyone's soul out
> Snape brings the souless husks back to the hospital wing
> Harry and company are in no shape to go back in time to save themselves
> The series of books comes to a premature end since souless husks who sit
> around and drool all day long aren't as interesting as adolescent wizards
> fighting dark forces.
>
> Here's how I see it happening:
> The kids leave Hagrid's and see the axe fall
> Sirius drags Ron and Scabbers into the tree
> Harry and Hermione follow them in and wind up at the Shrieking shack
> Lupin shows up, the story of Pettigrew gets told and they all decide to go
> back to the castle to clear Sirius's name
> They exit the tree and Lupin sees the moon
> Snape finds the map in Lupins office and heads towards the tree
> Sirius chases off werewolf Lupin
> Sirius collapses at the lake, harry and Hermione follow him there
> The dementors show up and beging menacing everyone
> Snape shows up just in time, chases off the dementors and brings everyone
> back to the hospital wing
> Dumbledore suggests the kids go back in time to save two innocent lives
> They go back in time and disrupt the timeline almost immediatley (think: the
> butterfly effect sorta thing. They do something seemingly innocuous that has
> an effect on Snape that will cause him to show up at Lupin's office a half
> hour earlier
> They go down and save Buckbeak then wait around for a while
> Snape shows up at the tree and proceeds to the shrieking shack where he is
> knocked out
> Etc, etc
> The dementors attack but Snape isn't there to save the day so Harry has to
> do it

You are confining time to a serial thing and it is not. Time is
relative it is present past and future all at the same time and this is
what makes time travel possible. There was not first time before they
went back in time. They were there before they went back in time(if
they weren't it really wouldn't be time travel. It is a loop, but not
an infinite loop. The original person goes forward at the exact point
the original decides to go back in time and it all happens at the same
time. Therefore there is no time that occured without the time travel.
>
> Time travel causes an infinite loop in time. Those three hours will be
> played over and over again forever. They go back in time to save themselves
> so they can go back in time to save themselves so they can go back... etc.
> The first time through, Snape chases off the dementors and Harry sees him
> blurrily but not for certain, only enough to peak his interest to see what
> happened so he goes down to the lake after he goes back in time.
> The second time through Harry has to cast his patronus to chase off the
> dementors since Snape is not there and his past self blurrily sees himself
> and the stag, not clearly but enough to peak his interest to see what
> happened so he goes down to the lake after he goes back in time.
> The third time through and each subsequent time are pretty much the same as
> the second time. Harry sees himself cast the patronus which causes him to go
> down to the lake after he time travels where he casts the patronus.
> At this point the timeline is stable since the same thing keeps repeating
> over and over again. We hear the story from the perspective of someone
> observing the stable timeline so we see Buckbeak getting saved, Snape
> showing up at the shack and getting knocked out and Harry casting the
> patronus that saves them all. Anything else that may have occured in the
> loop before the timeline stablizes is discarded. It becomes overwritten and
> is treated as though it never happened.
No need to stabalize, it only destabalizes if the original person
decides not to go back in time.
>
> Time travel Paradox has always been a pet peeve of mine. Impossible things
> can't happen, even in a world of magic. Dead people (or souless catatonics)
> cannot go back in time to save themselves. Something else had to have
> happened to save them and my little fabrication with Snape fulfills that, at
> least to my satisfaction.

You are right Dead people (or souless catatonics) can not go back in
time to save themselves unless they never died or became souless
catatonics because they went back in time to save themselves. So
unless you can see the future, you can't really prevent anything except
by coincidence. You'll notice in the book they go back in time to
prevent something that hasn't happened yet and just save themselves and
buckbeak because they happened to go back in time. If they hadn't gone
back in time they wouldn't have the opportunity to do that. Dumbledore
probably saw the future Harry and Hermoine and realized they had time
turned and that is why he helped them and why he told them about saving
buckbeak since he already knew they did it when he told them to go back
in time. It was a very clever way to show the concurrent nature of
time and the past, present, and future.

I'm sure JK destroyed the TTs since that would be easier than trying to
explain Einsteins theory of relativity and time travel in a children's
book. It is very cool the way the characters do not actually change
anything that happened the first time, but just use them to be in two
places at once( just as Hermoine uses them for school ) so they can
save Sirius BEFORE he gets the dementor's kiss.
Re: New comer questions [message #222998 ] Sa, 18 Februar 2006 10:26
Toon  
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 06:57:18 GMT, "Imagun Aqilya" <dingle [at] dongle.net>
wrote:

>Time travel causes an infinite loop in time. Those three hours will be
>played over and over again forever. They go back in time to save themselves
>so they can go back in time to save themselves so they can go back... etc.
>The first time through, Snape chases off the dementors and Harry sees him
>blurrily but not for certain, only enough to peak his interest to see what
>happened so he goes down to the lake after he goes back in time.

That's not possible. Snape's always unconscious. Harry always saves
them. He must, because he does. and we know he does, because he did.
Harry is the only one able to save them, because we have an eye
witness account to his saving everybody. Harry's. and when he goes
back in time, he is witnessed by himself, thus proving Harry and Harry
alone saves everybody. While poor frightened Harry thinks his dead
dad's come back to life to save everybody. And then it hits him when
no Daddy shows up.

The time loop is unalterable because Harry and Hermione keep things
right in sync. Which is quite a feat considering all the possible
alterations they could make.

The butterfly effect's a lousy movie. riped with paradoxes galore. he
alters history, yet remembers the black out periods his future self
appeared in, despite some of these being altered away.
Re: New comer questions [message #222999 ] Sa, 18 Februar 2006 10:26
Toon  
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:10:34 GMT, "Imagun Aqilya" <dingle [at] dongle.net>
wrote:

>
>"David Harmon" <source [at] netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:448dd39a.385246562 [at] news.west.earthlink.net...
>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:16:27 GMT in alt.fan.harry-potter, "Imagun
>> Aqilya" <dingle [at] dongle.net> wrote,
>>>As far as Buckbeak goes. There is no reason to think that the first time
>>>through the scenario he wasn't beheaded. Even DD said that if they were
>>>successful, two innocent lives could be saved.
>>
>> Harry and Hermione went through that time twice. For everybody
>> else, it was only once.
>>
>> So either Buckbeak was beheaded, or he wasn't. He wasn't.
>> Dumbledore knew he wasn't but not necessarily why, but Harry and
>> Hermione did not know. The second innocent life would be Sirius,
>> and Dumbledore did not know when he said that whether H&H would
>> succeed in saving him or not.
>>
>> If Buckbeak had been beheaded there would have been no saving him.
>>
>>
>
>I dont' see why not. BB could easily have been killed the first time but
>saved from death after H and Hr went back in time. What's to stop it?
>

Harry and Hermione. They go back and prevent the death. BB never
dies.
Re: New comer questions [message #223000 ] Sa, 18 Februar 2006 10:27
Toon  
On 17 Feb 2006 05:28:20 -0800, "scenario_dave"
<scenario_dave [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>> Time travel Paradox has always been a pet peeve of mine. Impossible things
>> can't happen, even in a world of magic. Dead people (or souless catatonics)
>> cannot go back in time to save themselves. Something else had to have
>> happened to save them and my little fabrication with Snape fulfills that, at
>> least to my satisfaction.
>
>Time travel is only a problem if you believe in cause and effect. I've
>read someplace that there are effects in quantum physics where cause
>and effect doesn't exist or works differently.

TT enables effects to precede their cause, and sometimes cause the
cause in the first place.
Re: New comer questions [message #223001 ] Sa, 18 Februar 2006 10:32
Toon  
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 17:44:09 -0800, richard e white <chiphead [at] cox.net>
wrote:

>That is not how it works. The person that saved harry the first time was
>harry. Because he did travle back. the problum is that your looking at it
>from one point perspective. But this is also where it depends on the time
>theary you use.
>Basicly you can only go back if you did go back. This is part of the reason
>that JKR realized that useing the time turner was a bad idea. To many problums
>come up in this kind of story and unless you are really good on the subject you
>should stay away from them.

One problem being idiots ho think thye cna solve their problems by
mutilating history. Harry wins? Draco goes back and helps V win?
Ooh, let's save sirius and DD. hey, if the Potters don't die,
Harry'll have a normal childhood.

People refuse to accept things happen for a reason, and other things
don't happen for a reason. If Sirius and DD don't die, Harry never
takes an offenseive position, and never defetas V. if Lily lives,
harry is never protected, and dies.

It's like goign back and gving yourself a stock tip. wrong. Go back,
buy the stock, then take it back with you and present it in the
present. if you becoem rich before you're suppsoed to grave ills will
follow. Like never having a reason to go back in time. You'd have to
leave detailed isntuctions on ging bakc and buying which stock to
preserve what little of time you can.
Re: New comer questions [message #223002 ] Sa, 18 Februar 2006 10:36
Toon  
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 18:12:32 -0800, richard e white <chiphead [at] cox.net>
wrote:
>
>> You don't get noticed so people don't notice you leaving through oen
>> door, only to appear out another door 3 secodns later. hemry barey
>> kept the boys sussicons down with her popping into existence all of a
>> sudden. You don't let yourself get seen, so you don't second guess
>> your actions, wodnering if you'll go back to fix the mistake.
>
>Not a good idea to use one theary of time travle to try and prove another.
>The bit with marty was based on multi dementions and he just moved to the
>one that fit what he did.

Yeah, but more people follow it as a single way. I mean, how many
realize that there were 3 Deloreans in 1955? The original movies's,
the sequels that goes back to stop Biff's take over of Evil 1985, and
the third's that's waiting for Marty to go back to the future again.

I did read a delightful article analyzing the several Marty's out
there. I think there was 4 in the end. Another showed that somehow,
the altered timelines remerged, with the parents redorking out and
Biff going dark again in the future.
Re: New comer questions [message #223044 ] Fr, 17 Februar 2006 22:03
Deimos  
Imagun Aqilya wrote:
> "Toon" <toon [at] toon.com> wrote in message
> news:r1g8v1tv9saltgbvj8edid3iqofos4fiii [at] 4ax.com...
>
>>On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:16:27 GMT, "Imagun Aqilya" <dingle [at] dongle.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>
>
>>There is no first time. Harry saves himself, thus enabling him to go
>>back in tiem and save himelf.
>
> you've got the order wrong in your computer analogy. It would be more like
> this:
>
> 1. string a="Time travel is tricky"
> 2. Print string a
> 3. End
> 4. string a="Time travel is not tricky"
> 5. Goto 2
>
> you never get to step 5 because the progam ends at step 3. You never go back
> to print ' Time travel is not tricky ' because the program never gets there.

Well in fact, if you see time as a piece of string, time travel is only
*logically* possible if you don't cut the string. You make a loop: two
distinct sections of the string now overlap. If you picture Harry and
Hermione as ants walking on this string, there's a bit of the string
that they will walk twice, thus being in the same place at the same time
at two different stages of their lives.

You have two ways of conceiving time-travel: either you can't change the
past or you can. I will call the first kind of time-travel
"mono-chronological" and the second one "poly-chronological".

In the mono-chronological case, you can't change past: the only thing
you can do is to go back into your *own* past. For example, *12 Monkeys*
is a film in which time travel is mono-chronological: nothing the
characters do in the film changes the future. The future is no longer
conditioned by past only, but by other "global" conditions. It is as if
time didn't unfold but was given as a whole and you only look at one
section at a time.

That's actually quite a funky way of creating time-travel: say now it's
21:48, Friday February 17th 2006. I swear to myself that if ever I
manage to work out how to time-travel, I'll go back in time and give
myself a DVD with detailed instructions. Less than a minute later, I see
myself arrive from the future with the DVD. Of course, I now have to
build the machine, but I cannot not do it because if I had the slightest
chance of failing, I wouldn't have the DVD so...

The only possible thing in mono-chronological time-travel is to change
the *interpretation* of the past, not past itself: for example, you go
back in time and kill your grandmother. Well logically, you couldn't've
because you're alive, so your grandmother actually *did* give birth to
you. Therefore, either you thought you killed someone & didn't or you
simply killed the wrong old lady (but was it an old lady anyway?...).
This is also one of the arguments used in *Twelve Monkeys*: you go back
in time to try and prevent something from happening but in fact
everything you do *leads* you to the dreaded catastrophy.

The same kind of thing applies in the *Prisoner of Azkaban*: the events
themselves didn't change, only our (and Harry and Hermione's)
interpretation of them: JK Rowling does it quite nicely actually... The
same event (a thud noise) is in one case interpreted as cutting off a
head and in another case as an axe thrown away in frustration...

Therefore, I sort of agree with Weird Beard in saying "You can only go
back and affect the outcome of things that haven't already happened".

In mathematical terms, if you allow mono-chronological time-travel, the
time line is no-longer connex and therefore the cauchy-Lipschitz theorem
no-longer applies (no more unique solutions to differential equations).

Sorry for the long & boring post...

Deimos.
Vorheriges Thema:Snape Idea
Nächstes Thema:Emma saves the day
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