PB's contribution to Bond

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Miscellaneous / Verschiedenes » alt.fan.james-bond » PB's contribution to Bond

PB's contribution to Bond [message #215669]

Mo, 30 Januar 2006 20:59

Will Traynor

After appearing in four films as James Bond, PB's tenure is over and now we
can evaluate his contribution to the Bond pantheon. True, his movies made a
ton of money and were commercially successful. But Moonraker and a View To A
Kill did well at the box office too. OHMSS did poorly at the box office, so
not sure that is a good barometer for success from a character standpoint.
So overall, do you think PB was a successful Bond, why or why not? Just
curious what others think.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215671 ]

Mo, 30 Januar 2006 21:56

JHause

Here's a new article in the Mirror, with Brosnan's opinion:

30 January 2006
BROSNAN'S 007 WISH

PIERCE Brosnan hopes to be back playing James Bond - despite being
replaced as 007 last year.

The Irish actor, 52, was dumped for Layer Cake star Daniel Craig after
four films as the superspy.

He was said to be "gutted" at not being asked to make a fifth Bond
movie.

Sean Connery stepped back into the role after George Lazenby flopped.

Brosnan said: "If such a scenario arose I would jump at it."

But he admitted he was hopeless at delivering 007's one-liners with the
panache of Connery.

He said: "I wasn't very good at them."

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215675 ]

Mo, 30 Januar 2006 22:58

Mark

He was better than Moore and Lazenby.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215676 ]

Mo, 30 Januar 2006 23:15

JHause

I thought he was really promising in Goldeneye, but the writing in the
succeeding films stopped developing his character. So it wasn't his
fault. They just gave him puns to say and stopped thinking of character
moments, and jumped from set piece to set piece.

He and Dalton both looked kind of embarrassed delivering some of the
joke lines, as if they were struggling to make them play emotionally in
the scenes. (Which was usually impossible.)

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215677 ]

Mo, 30 Januar 2006 23:19

Will wrote:
> After appearing in four films as James Bond, PB's tenure is over and now we
> can evaluate his contribution to the Bond pantheon. True, his movies made a
> ton of money and were commercially successful. But Moonraker and a View To A
> Kill did well at the box office too. OHMSS did poorly at the box office, so
> not sure that is a good barometer for success from a character standpoint.
> So overall, do you think PB was a successful Bond, why or why not? Just
> curious what others think.

--- Brosnan's Bond suffered from hackneyed plots that relied too
heavily on firepower. GE was the best of his lot, but that's only
within his lot. I don't think I could even include GE in a Top 10 Bond
film list, or it would probably rank 10 at best. Brosnan as Bond was
only as good as the plots he was handed, unlike Connery who still
managed to shine even in his lamer efforts YOLT, DAF and NSNA. Brosnan
also suffered from not coming across relaxed enough, actually the same
as Dalton. There always seemed to be a tenseness or nervous energy
with both actors which irritated me a bit. Connery and Lazenby
conveyed the most natural relaxed nature in their Bonds, while Moore
seemed to come off as just way too relaxed to the point of outright
aloofness. Could Brosnan have been a better Bond? With much better
scripts, certainly. Did he make a memorable Bond? Not really. All I
saw out of him was a slick veneer of Bond, not any grounded, living,
breathing one. He helped keep the franchise alive, so perhaps the best
that could be said about him was that he was a serviceable Bond.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215682 ]

Di, 31 Januar 2006 01:02

Rich Handley

"Will" <willt65 [at] comcast.net> said:
>After appearing in four films as James Bond, PB's tenure is over and now we
>can evaluate his contribution to the Bond pantheon. True, his movies made a
>ton of money and were commercially successful. But Moonraker and a View To A
>Kill did well at the box office too. OHMSS did poorly at the box office, so
>not sure that is a good barometer for success from a character standpoint.
>So overall, do you think PB was a successful Bond, why or why not? Just
>curious what others think.

I think he nailed the part. However, I think the writing was subpar on 50%
of his films. TWINE and TND bored me, and DAD, while a fun film, was had a
lot of problems with it as well. The only film from his era I count among
my favorites is Goldeneye, and the shame of that is that it's his first
film. However, I don't put any of the blame on him. I blame the writers
and the producers.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215686 ]

Di, 31 Januar 2006 02:25

phil.gerrard1

What did he contribute? IMHO next to nothing, but he was one of the
best Bonds *because* of that. He didn't try to mould Bond to his
image, he didn't try to add stuff or steer the character in his
direction, he played it to the hilt. He became Bond rather than trying
to make Bond become him.

Brosnan's remarkable achievement was to combine some of the better
elements of all the previous EON Bonds and Fleming's Bond, without it
ever looking forced. (That's if he even thought about his performance
in those terms, which I doubt.) I don't think there was anything his
Bond had which hadn't been seen somewhere in the books or films before,
but he could do humour without sacrificing the ability to be deadly
serious, he could do sensitivity without sacrificing ruthlessness, etc
etc. As an all-round Bond, he's up there with Connery, and fortunately
for us he never tarnished his reputation by sleepwalking through a
movie as Connery did in YOLT.

We can and will argue forever about the quality of Brosnan's movies.
IMHO GE is too erratically paced to be one of the greats, TND is great
fun in places but rather overblown in others, TWINE is great on
character stuff but not so hot on action scenes, and DAD is the movie
equivalent of a 40-year-old band's greatest hits package, in other
words a curate's egg. Having said that, in my book they're all
three-star entries at least, and it's been a *long* time since there
have been four consecutive Bond films about which I could say that -
and even if you don't like them, I don't think you can criticise a lot
about the work Brosnan did with the material he was given.

Best

Phil

(My favourite Bond is still Dalton, BTW, but he simply wasn't for
everybody, and I'd be willing to bet that the same is going to be true
of Daniel Craig. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.)

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215703 ]

Di, 31 Januar 2006 04:37

Will Traynor

"JHause" <JHause [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1138659304.794405.49710 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>I thought he was really promising in Goldeneye, but the writing in the
> succeeding films stopped developing his character. So it wasn't his
> fault. They just gave him puns to say and stopped thinking of character
> moments, and jumped from set piece to set piece.
>
> He and Dalton both looked kind of embarrassed delivering some of the
> joke lines, as if they were struggling to make them play emotionally in
> the scenes. (Which was usually impossible.)
>

I remember PB talking about how much he wanted to develop the character, and
how the movies needed to be more down to earth. I think he lost that battle.
I wonder how much input he had in these movies.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215704 ]

Di, 31 Januar 2006 04:50

Will Traynor

"phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1138670712.929105.278280 [at] g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> What did he contribute? IMHO next to nothing, but he was one of the
> best Bonds *because* of that. He didn't try to mould Bond to his
> image, he didn't try to add stuff or steer the character in his
> direction, he played it to the hilt. He became Bond rather than trying
> to make Bond become him.
>
> Brosnan's remarkable achievement was to combine some of the better
> elements of all the previous EON Bonds and Fleming's Bond, without it
> ever looking forced. (That's if he even thought about his performance
> in those terms, which I doubt.) I don't think there was anything his
> Bond had which hadn't been seen somewhere in the books or films before,
> but he could do humour without sacrificing the ability to be deadly
> serious, he could do sensitivity without sacrificing ruthlessness, etc
> etc. As an all-round Bond, he's up there with Connery, and fortunately
> for us he never tarnished his reputation by sleepwalking through a
> movie as Connery did in YOLT.
>

Connery did seem disinterested in YOLT, which is not a great movie anyway,
but I always watched PB and knew he was acting, whereas Connery never seemed
to be acting to me. He was a much more natural actor. Therefore, Connery
just seemed a natural for the role, whereas Brosnan just seemed to be acting
as James Bond. Don't get me wrong, I like PB, but he was no Connery. In
addition, other than GE, Brosnan never came off as a "dangerous" Bond to me.
Physically, he was sleight and lanky, and not a very imposing character. He
had one good fight scene in GE, and that was it in four movies. Was that
PB's fault? Probably not. But he came off as more of a pretty face rather
than a tough guy. I had the same problem with Roger Moore, who never looked
like he could fight his way out of a paper bag. For me, Bond has to be
dangerous, as Connery, Lazenby and to a lesser extent, Dalton were. I
watched the Bourne movies and realized there was still a place for that type
of movie. Unfortunately, the Bond producers have dumbed down the movies so
much, it's a shame. I long for the days of a "dangerous" Bond !!!

> We can and will argue forever about the quality of Brosnan's movies.
> IMHO GE is too erratically paced to be one of the greats, TND is great
> fun in places but rather overblown in others, TWINE is great on
> character stuff but not so hot on action scenes, and DAD is the movie
> equivalent of a 40-year-old band's greatest hits package, in other
> words a curate's egg. Having said that, in my book they're all
> three-star entries at least, and it's been a *long* time since there
> have been four consecutive Bond films about which I could say that -
> and even if you don't like them, I don't think you can criticise a lot
> about the work Brosnan did with the material he was given.
>

I agree to a certain extent, although I wonder how much PB pushed for input
on the scripts.

> Best
>
> Phil
>
> (My favourite Bond is still Dalton, BTW, but he simply wasn't for
> everybody, and I'd be willing to bet that the same is going to be true
> of Daniel Craig. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.)
>

I liked TD also, I thought he was unfairly criticized for his work.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215735 ]

Di, 31 Januar 2006 20:13

PB's Contribution to Bond?

Well, his movies should be remembered for Garbage... ;-)

DC

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215739 ]

Di, 31 Januar 2006 22:46

GSHATTERHAND

A great post, Phil.

I agree completely with the overall sentiment of your post and almost
all the details. Yes, PB is "up there with Connery." Not IMO as good as
Connery but up there.

For me Connery remains number one mostly for his natural gifts which PB
could not match. WIth one more film, however, PB might have over-taken
even Connery for me. And you are quite right........PB does not have a
walk-through against him as SC does with DAF. (Although parts of
Connery's casual, aloof performance seem appropriate to the early,
routine smuggling case we get at the opening of DAF. But this is likely
a happy accident.)

But I do think PB was unique in showing us the coldest Bond we've seen
on the screen. Maybe even colder than in the novels. (Does he execute a
woman in the novels? Can't recall right now but I don't think so.) Now
I'm not certain whether this should be credited to the writing or PB.
The writing I guess. But PB made it work.

Bond's execution of Elektra in TWINE is, of course, the paramount
example. And this happens in the series only a short time after Bond
has lost yet another woman he loves.
Yet that doesn't slow Bond's trigger finger when a woman he feels
affection for has crossed him.

PB took the role seriously and did indeed give us a set of four
consecutive 007 films that rate no lower than "three-stars" for many
fans. (For me TWINE is three-and-a-half stars and DAD is four stars.)

Take the hotel room scene after Paris has been killed in TND. Vincent
Schiavelli's Dr. Kaufman is over the top but PB plays his end of the
scene for real, especially that humorless little chuckle as Kaufman
describes his killing prowess. PB's performance keeps the scene
anchored and makes it work IMO.

I'm excited about the new Bond but PB was a great 007 and, in a perfect
world, would have gotten at least a fifth shot at the role.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215745 ]

Di, 31 Januar 2006 23:33

JHause

You know, this is mostly the writers' fault, but I didn't get that from
most of PB's films.

IMO, the last few films were all so paint-by-numbers. For instance, in
TWINE killing Electra didn't seem that cold too me. The characters
hadn't earned it through the storytelling. She just changed
personalities every twenty minutes or so until you stopped caring if
she was good or bad. And they didn't play off the simutaneous
relationships with Electra and "Christmas Jones, the nuclear
scientist." So how are you supposed to feel any pain from Bond after
shooting her when he's been trying to nail Christmas for the last 20
minutes???

Half of DAD was completely unmotivated, and Bond's time in prison was
done in silhouette to the theme song -- Madonna got more screen time
with Bond in a fencing class than they spent on the prison stuff, yet
the whole movie was supposed to revolve around that plot twist. They
were more interested in a Madonna cameo than in showing Bond in prison.
How can you hope to involve an audience with storytelling like that???

And I can see why they aren't using Moneypenny anymore. There hasn't
been a good Bond/Moneypenny scene since Lois Maxwell was acting. Can
anybody here remember a really good scene with Caroline Bliss or
Samantha Bond -- or at least a funny one? Hopefully Haggis or whoever
the next writer is will figure out a way to reintroduce the character
with some energy.

There's been one memorable M scene in Brosnan's tenure, with any sort
of confrontation, and that was in his first film. By DAD she was just a
cheerleader, and all the "sexist dinosaur" stuff was loooooong gone. It
had already devolved to the "cunning linguist" puns in TND... Oy...

So I guess what I'm saying is thank God for Brosnan, because nobody
else was holding up their end.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215748 ]

Mi, 01 Februar 2006 00:32

neolib007

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215750 ]

Mi, 01 Februar 2006 00:46

Will Traynor

"GSHATTERHAND" <gshatterhand [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1138744008.162756.89210 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A great post, Phil.
>
> I agree completely with the overall sentiment of your post and almost
> all the details. Yes, PB is "up there with Connery." Not IMO as good as
> Connery but up there.
>
> For me Connery remains number one mostly for his natural gifts which PB
> could not match. WIth one more film, however, PB might have over-taken
> even Connery for me. And you are quite right........PB does not have a
> walk-through against him as SC does with DAF. (Although parts of
> Connery's casual, aloof performance seem appropriate to the early,
> routine smuggling case we get at the opening of DAF. But this is likely
> a happy accident.)
>
> But I do think PB was unique in showing us the coldest Bond we've seen
> on the screen. Maybe even colder than in the novels. (Does he execute a
> woman in the novels? Can't recall right now but I don't think so.) Now
> I'm not certain whether this should be credited to the writing or PB.
> The writing I guess. But PB made it work.
>
> Bond's execution of Elektra in TWINE is, of course, the paramount
> example. And this happens in the series only a short time after Bond
> has lost yet another woman he loves.
> Yet that doesn't slow Bond's trigger finger when a woman he feels
> affection for has crossed him.
>
> PB took the role seriously and did indeed give us a set of four
> consecutive 007 films that rate no lower than "three-stars" for many
> fans. (For me TWINE is three-and-a-half stars and DAD is four stars.)
>

With all due respect, if you think DAD is a four-star Bond then we have
different ideas about what constitutes a great James Bond film. I'll put my
money that most Bond fans would not place that film in their top 10. Given
your opinion about PB's films in general I won't waste my time offering a
different view about the rest of your post. But I appreciate your input,
always good to hear another point of view.

> Take the hotel room scene after Paris has been killed in TND. Vincent
> Schiavelli's Dr. Kaufman is over the top but PB plays his end of the
> scene for real, especially that humorless little chuckle as Kaufman
> describes his killing prowess. PB's performance keeps the scene
> anchored and makes it work IMO.
>
> I'm excited about the new Bond but PB was a great 007 and, in a perfect
> world, would have gotten at least a fifth shot at the role.
>

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215753 ]

Mi, 01 Februar 2006 01:41

Will Traynor

"JHause" <JHause [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1138746826.589064.163010 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> You know, this is mostly the writers' fault, but I didn't get that from
> most of PB's films.
>
> IMO, the last few films were all so paint-by-numbers. For instance, in
> TWINE killing Electra didn't seem that cold too me. The characters
> hadn't earned it through the storytelling. She just changed
> personalities every twenty minutes or so until you stopped caring if
> she was good or bad. And they didn't play off the simutaneous
> relationships with Electra and "Christmas Jones, the nuclear
> scientist." So how are you supposed to feel any pain from Bond after
> shooting her when he's been trying to nail Christmas for the last 20
> minutes???
>
> Half of DAD was completely unmotivated, and Bond's time in prison was
> done in silhouette to the theme song -- Madonna got more screen time
> with Bond in a fencing class than they spent on the prison stuff, yet
> the whole movie was supposed to revolve around that plot twist. They
> were more interested in a Madonna cameo than in showing Bond in prison.
> How can you hope to involve an audience with storytelling like that???
>
> And I can see why they aren't using Moneypenny anymore. There hasn't
> been a good Bond/Moneypenny scene since Lois Maxwell was acting. Can
> anybody here remember a really good scene with Caroline Bliss or
> Samantha Bond -- or at least a funny one? Hopefully Haggis or whoever
> the next writer is will figure out a way to reintroduce the character
> with some energy.
>
> There's been one memorable M scene in Brosnan's tenure, with any sort
> of confrontation, and that was in his first film. By DAD she was just a
> cheerleader, and all the "sexist dinosaur" stuff was loooooong gone. It
> had already devolved to the "cunning linguist" puns in TND... Oy...
>
> So I guess what I'm saying is thank God for Brosnan, because nobody
> else was holding up their end.
>

I agree; the movies were lost opportunities, but Brosnan did a very good job
with the material. But as the saying goes, "You can't make chicken salad out
of chicken s*it." GE was his best film, and TWINE was his best performance
IMHO. But TND and DAD devolved into ridiculousness by the end of the film.
Invisible cars, para-sailing down the side of avalanches and endless
explosions do not make for a good Bond film. Did anyone even care about
Bond's time as a prisoner by the end of DAD? I certainly didn't. That part
of the story was completely lost in favor of XXX-style special effects. Even
Brosnan was not happy with the results of some of his Bond films.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215754 ]

Mi, 01 Februar 2006 01:53

phil.gerrard1

GSHATTERHAND wrote:

> (Although parts of
> Connery's casual, aloof performance seem appropriate to the early,
> routine smuggling case we get at the opening of DAF. But this is likely
> a happy accident.)

Strangely enough, I find Connery's performance in DAF much more
watchable than in YOLT. He's not the Bond we saw in the 'big four'
((c) Tom Zielinski) but at least he seems to be having fun even in the
sillier moments.

> But I do think PB was unique in showing us the coldest Bond we've seen
> on the screen. Maybe even colder than in the novels. (Does he execute a
> woman in the novels? Can't recall right now but I don't think so.) Now
> I'm not certain whether this should be credited to the writing or PB.
> The writing I guess. But PB made it work.

IMHO TWINE is so good in some areas and so weak in others that my
estimation of the movie changes according to my mood when I'm watching
it - however, I do think there is a lot in the film which one can
imagine Fleming having written, which is always a plus point for me.
(Can you imagine Fleming having written a word of AVTAK, for example?)

Best

Phil

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215756 ]

Mi, 01 Februar 2006 02:42

phil.gerrard1

JHause wrote:

> IMO, the last few films were all so paint-by-numbers. For instance, in
> TWINE killing Electra didn't seem that cold too me. The characters
> hadn't earned it through the storytelling. She just changed
> personalities every twenty minutes or so until you stopped caring if
> she was good or bad. And they didn't play off the simutaneous
> relationships with Electra and "Christmas Jones, the nuclear
> scientist." So how are you supposed to feel any pain from Bond after
> shooting her when he's been trying to nail Christmas for the last 20
> minutes???

To play script doctor for a moment, I think the mistake might have been
to introduce the character of Jones in the first place - the 'good'
Bond girl as opposed to the 'bad' one. Elektra's mental instability,
given her past, would have made her exactly the kind of 'bird with a
wing down' that Fleming used to make his Bond girls, and if Jones had
not appeared so early in the script, and been so obviously the woman
Bond would end up in bed with at the end of the film, Elektra could
have been played for all she was worth: a mentally unstable, vulnerable
woman for whom Bond because of her damaged past, but who in the end
turns out to be beyond redemption. That would have been devastating.
It might also, however, have stopped EON from making CR just a few
short years later for fear of repeating themselves.

> Half of DAD was completely unmotivated, and Bond's time in prison was
> done in silhouette to the theme song -- Madonna got more screen time
> with Bond in a fencing class than they spent on the prison stuff, yet
> the whole movie was supposed to revolve around that plot twist

Well, yeah. Again, to bring up the Fleming angle, Bond's brainwashing
and subsequent return to the service in TMWTGG are similarly brushed
over, and I'd question whether playing Bond's time in prison over a
greater length would have been either interesting/entertaining to
watch, or particularly important to the rest of the film. I'd argue
that you should give the guy his argument for revenge as quickly as
possible, and then play the film out from there. Madonna's cameo was a
mistake, without a doubt, but the more I've watched DAD the more I've
felt that becasue of the 40th anniversary / 20th Bond film hoopla, EON
felt compelled to try to satisfy everybody - which is often a mistake.
Hardcore Fleming fans would have got the gag about the Player's
Cigarettes Ad in the tube station, but would have been appalled by some
of the rest, whereas some people on this NG have poured scorn on the
idea that Bond could be imprisoned for more than a few days.

IMHO DAD was a compromise/consensus Bond movie, one which was designed
to please eveybody from the hardcore to the casual viewer, and it
didn't quite do the job - as if any movie could.

> And I can see why they aren't using Moneypenny anymore. There hasn't
> been a good Bond/Moneypenny scene since Lois Maxwell was acting. Can
> anybody here remember a really good scene with Caroline Bliss or
> Samantha Bond -- or at least a funny one? Hopefully Haggis or whoever
> the next writer is will figure out a way to reintroduce the character
> with some energy.

IMHO the Pierce Brosnan / Samantha Bond scenes have worked better than
any Bond / Moneypenny exchange since maybe TB: During the late
Connery/Moore/Dalton eras they just seemed to be forced into the script
grudgingly because that was what the audience expected. I'd rather
watch any of the Bond/Moneypenny scenes from GE onwards than any of the
equivalent scenes from DAF to LTK inclusive.. As for reintroducing the
character, I kind of feel that things should be done one step at a time
- get Bond right for CR and I'll be happy to think about Moneypenny
later.

> There's been one memorable M scene in Brosnan's tenure, with any sort
> of confrontation, and that was in his first film.

I'd argue that the 'M' scenes since GE have been a hell of a lot more
effective and relevant since GE than they were throughout the whole of
the '70s and '80s, when the character became a pompous blowhard, or
comic relief at best.

Best

Phil

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215757 ]

Mi, 01 Februar 2006 03:30

mlawrenc

"I can't use what I can't abuse and I can't stop when it come to
you........................Oh James"

Matt

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215758 ]

Mi, 01 Februar 2006 05:25

GSHATTERHAND

Well, I get the impression the respect my opinion is "due" in this case
is not a great amount. : )

None the less, Will, I always try to consider different viewpoints and
your's would not be lost on me. I'm well aware lots of folks don't care
for DAD and I understand their reasons. Only the first half is good
then the tone changes, the computer generated effects are sub-par,
Gustave Grave's suit on the plane looks juvenile, Halle Berry thinks
she's in some other movie and shares too much screen time during the
final battle, Mr. Kill is a waste, invisible car........all criticisms
I can understand. (Not that I have any idea if you agree with these
points.)

But for me DAD captures the perfect proportion of over-the-top villains
and action mixed with the right amount of danger. And all the actors
mostly play it straight. The villain is the best in years. DAD is as
much fun IMO as the Bond films of the 60's. And that tone is not easy
to capture. I confess I have no idea where most Bond fans place DAD
among their favorites. A few here like it a lot.

Just for comparison, my five top Bonds from first to fifth are OHMSS,
GF, FRWL, DAD, TWINE. I'd be surprised if we didn't agree about some of
these films.

All the best,
G(ary)SHATTERHAND

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215759 ]

Mi, 01 Februar 2006 06:00

Will Traynor

"GSHATTERHAND" <gshatterhand [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1138767905.457719.245390 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Well, I get the impression the respect my opinion is "due" in this case
> is not a great amount. : )
>
> None the less, Will, I always try to consider different viewpoints and
> your's would not be lost on me. I'm well aware lots of folks don't care
> for DAD and I understand their reasons. Only the first half is good
> then the tone changes, the computer generated effects are sub-par,
> Gustave Grave's suit on the plane looks juvenile, Halle Berry thinks
> she's in some other movie and shares too much screen time during the
> final battle, Mr. Kill is a waste, invisible car........all criticisms
> I can understand. (Not that I have any idea if you agree with these
> points.)
>
> But for me DAD captures the perfect proportion of over-the-top villains
> and action mixed with the right amount of danger. And all the actors
> mostly play it straight. The villain is the best in years. DAD is as
> much fun IMO as the Bond films of the 60's. And that tone is not easy
> to capture. I confess I have no idea where most Bond fans place DAD
> among their favorites. A few here like it a lot.
>
> Just for comparison, my five top Bonds from first to fifth are OHMSS,
> GF, FRWL, DAD, TWINE. I'd be surprised if we didn't agree about some of
> these films.
>
> All the best,
> G(ary)SHATTERHAND
>

Actually, I read many of your posts and they are always interesting, so when
I say I respect your opinion, I mean it :-)

BTW, those are many of the criticisms I have for DAD. The first half of the
film was very good and the second half was not very good, for many of the
reasons you mentioned. Many Bond films are fun, but that doesn't mean they
are necessarily good. I think Moonraker was a hell of a lot of fun :-)

As for your top 5 list, we agree on 3 out of 5, and I'm sure you know which
3 :-) As I said before, PB deserved better material, IMHO, and I look at his
tenure as one of missed opportunities. GE is my favorite PB movie, and I
thought his best performance was TWINE.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215760 ]

Mi, 01 Februar 2006 06:27

GSHATTERHAND

I'm so used to considering DAF Connery's "sleep-walk" that I didn't
notice you were referring to YOLT, Phil. Sorry.

I see your point but I kind of think YOLT was such a big, disjointed
mess, trying so hard to simply be bigger than the first four films,
needless, unsuspenseful actions scenes jammed in (like 007's escape
from Helga Brandt's small plane) that it didn't leave much room for SC
to perform at all.

I tend to think DAF, silly as it was, offered Connery some chance to
make an impression. He was avenging the death of his wife. But,
although I enjoy parts of Connery's peformance in DAF very much (for
instance his aloof go-along-with-the nonsense attitude bringing his
"brother's body" into the U.S., the gangster limo escort, and the
cremation ceremony at the Slumber Funeral Home) I don't think Connery
tried very hard to put much into it - from the Bond is out to avenge
his wife angle. Not that the script as-written called for much.

Yes, the fault probably lies with the script so I'm getting all mixed
up here between what the script actually calls for and the actor's
performance. I have this naive attitude that Sean Connery should have
suddenly yelled "STOP" right in the middle of filming and said "this is
too silly and doesn't give me a chance to put any acting into it.
Rewrite it now!" But I guess that doesn't happen much. Then because SC
didn't do that I think he "slept" through the role.

Not very realistic I guess.

GSHATTERHAND
not making much sense lately

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215772 ]

Mi, 01 Februar 2006 17:09

Paul Clarke

phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com wrote:
>>There's been one memorable M scene in Brosnan's tenure, with any sort
>>of confrontation, and that was in his first film.
>
>
> I'd argue that the 'M' scenes since GE have been a hell of a lot more
> effective and relevant since GE than they were throughout the whole of
> the '70s and '80s, when the character became a pompous blowhard, or
> comic relief at best.

I second that. TWINE had an excellent scene with Bond confronting M
about potentially letting her personal feelings get in the way. The way
that M snaps "I will not tolerate insubordination, 007." and then
collapses slightly after Bond asks "What happened?" was a good, dramatic
moment, better than just about anything from the Moore/Dalton films.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215775 ]

Mi, 01 Februar 2006 17:29

JHause

Paul Clarke wrote:
> phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com wrote:
> >>There's been one memorable M scene in Brosnan's tenure, with any sort
> >>of confrontation, and that was in his first film.
> >
> >
> > I'd argue that the 'M' scenes since GE have been a hell of a lot more
> > effective and relevant since GE than they were throughout the whole of
> > the '70s and '80s, when the character became a pompous blowhard, or
> > comic relief at best.
>
> I second that. TWINE had an excellent scene with Bond confronting M
> about potentially letting her personal feelings get in the way. The way
> that M snaps "I will not tolerate insubordination, 007." and then
> collapses slightly after Bond asks "What happened?" was a good, dramatic
> moment, better than just about anything from the Moore/Dalton films.

Really? I didn't buy any of that stuff. For instance, when she tells
the villain, "You're right, Elektra IS worth fifty-thousand of you,"
or whatever the hell her line was, I just thought "WHY? A daughter of a
friend has kidnapped you and is going to kill millions of others and
you think she's this immensely valuable person? Quit watching OPRAH and
run the friggin' secret service!!!"

I mean, it was all as ineffectively used as Brosnan's shoulder hurting
every OTHER scene, or so. "Hey let's set up a movie where Bond has to
work with a hurt shoulder, and ignore it except for three or four
scenes!"

The last few films were FILLED with empty dialogue and unexploited
situations that didn't mean anything. I think Haggis won't let that
happen this time, though.

Again, sticking to the thread, Brosnan's contribution was that he was a
strong enough Bond to overcome a lot of that.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215776 ]

Mi, 01 Februar 2006 18:21

JHause

I will say Dench acted the hell out of that stuff, but it didn't carry
any weight with the audience (okay, me). The writers needed to follow
through. Bond warns her to no effect in the storytelling, then Dench
flies out to be with Elektra and ignores national security -- but we
need to actually SEE a reason why Dench would care about her over
national security. The storytellers didn't earn any of it.

Now the GoldenEye scene, THAT was good. Both characters had storylines
and differences that we had seen develop during the picture, that
affected the story, and actually played through a confrontation. They
didn't have to add a bunch of dialogue like "Because the inventor of
GoldenEye was my lover and now his daughter Natalya's been kidnapped,
and I owe it to her." There was genuine conflict, and a nice little
capper by Dench at the end. That was some really strong writing.

Why they dropped that whole aspect of their relationship after one
movie, I'll never know. It was good stuff, and grounded the characters.
(Or at least played it out a little more.)

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215786 ]

Do, 02 Februar 2006 01:08

phil.gerrard1

GSHATTERHAND wrote:

> I tend to think DAF, silly as it was, offered Connery some chance to
> make an impression. He was avenging the death of his wife. But,
> although I enjoy parts of Connery's peformance in DAF very much (for
> instance his aloof go-along-with-the nonsense attitude bringing his
> "brother's body" into the U.S., the gangster limo escort, and the
> cremation ceremony at the Slumber Funeral Home) I don't think Connery
> tried very hard to put much into it - from the Bond is out to avenge
> his wife angle. Not that the script as-written called for much.
>
> Yes, the fault probably lies with the script so I'm getting all mixed
> up here between what the script actually calls for and the actor's
> performance. I have this naive attitude that Sean Connery should have
> suddenly yelled "STOP" right in the middle of filming and said "this is
> too silly and doesn't give me a chance to put any acting into it.
> Rewrite it now!" But I guess that doesn't happen much. Then because SC
> didn't do that I think he "slept" through the role.
>
> Not very realistic I guess.

No, a fair enough point, and since UA were so desperate to have Connery
in the film, I'm sure he could have made some changes if he wanted to,
or merely walked away if he didn't like the script. Tom Mankiewicz, in
the DVD documentary, talks about a script meeting he had with Connery,
so the guy clearly had some say in what ended up on the screen.

I think you're right about the script de-emphasising Tracy's death.
M's dialogue seems to indicate that Bond is on a *personal* mission to
do away with Blofeld at the beginning of the film (which I've always
found kind of amusing - he can use his licence to kill during his
leisure time as well?). However, there's nothing that would clue the
audience in to the fact that this could be as revenge for the events of
OHMSS, and anybody who hadn't seen that movie would be none the wiser.

I still think, however, that Connery's insouciance in DAF, which I
actually find quite charming, shows a kind of 'demob happiness'. He
knows it's going to be his last time playing the role (well...), he's
got a great deal out of UA, he has time off to play golf, and overall
he seems to me to be enjoying himself far more than in YOLT. Perhaps
the phrase I'd use is 'coasting' rather than 'sleepwalking' but that's
splitting hairs.

Best

Phil

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215788 ]

Do, 02 Februar 2006 01:26

phil.gerrard1

JHause wrote:

> Now the GoldenEye scene, THAT was good. Both characters had storylines
> and differences that we had seen develop during the picture, that
> affected the story, and actually played through a confrontation. They
> didn't have to add a bunch of dialogue like "Because the inventor of
> GoldenEye was my lover and now his daughter Natalya's been kidnapped,
> and I owe it to her." There was genuine conflict, and a nice little
> capper by Dench at the end. That was some really strong writing.

It's good, although I really don't like that oft-quoted 'sexist,
misogynist dinosaur' line. Using 'sexist' and 'misogynist' together
has always sounded painfully redundant to me. (In any case, surely
'misogynist' is the noun and the adjective is 'misogynistic'?) But
yes, the rest of it is a key scene for me also.

I do have a lot of other problems with GE, including many other aspects
of the script, and think it's rather overrated - but that, as they say,
is a whole other thread.

> Why they dropped that whole aspect of their relationship after one
> movie, I'll never know. It was good stuff, and grounded the characters.
> (Or at least played it out a little more.)

M's barely in TND, but that's not a completely new phenomenon: beyond
the briefing scenes, one barely saw Dench's predecessors in several of
the movies. While I'd rate TWINE and M's part in it more highly than
you (again, a whole other thread), I agree that I don't buy the idea
that she'd drop whatever else she had on just to fly out and meet
Elektra. As I think there are more heinous crimes against logic in
even some of the best Bond films, I've kind of let that one go, but
you're right, it doesn't make sense.

However, I honestly think that the Bond/M relationship from GE is there
again in DAD, although I guess it gets a little lost amidst the sound
and fury of the rest of the movie.

Best

Phil

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215797 ]

Do, 02 Februar 2006 03:28

Will Traynor

"phil.gerrard [at] ntlworld.com" <phil.gerrard1 [at] ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1138838911.722496.226490 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> GSHATTERHAND wrote:
>
>> I tend to think DAF, silly as it was, offered Connery some chance to
>> make an impression. He was avenging the death of his wife. But,
>> although I enjoy parts of Connery's peformance in DAF very much (for
>> instance his aloof go-along-with-the nonsense attitude bringing his
>> "brother's body" into the U.S., the gangster limo escort, and the
>> cremation ceremony at the Slumber Funeral Home) I don't think Connery
>> tried very hard to put much into it - from the Bond is out to avenge
>> his wife angle. Not that the script as-written called for much.
>>
>> Yes, the fault probably lies with the script so I'm getting all mixed
>> up here between what the script actually calls for and the actor's
>> performance. I have this naive attitude that Sean Connery should have
>> suddenly yelled "STOP" right in the middle of filming and said "this is
>> too silly and doesn't give me a chance to put any acting into it.
>> Rewrite it now!" But I guess that doesn't happen much. Then because SC
>> didn't do that I think he "slept" through the role.
>>
>> Not very realistic I guess.
>
> No, a fair enough point, and since UA were so desperate to have Connery
> in the film, I'm sure he could have made some changes if he wanted to,
> or merely walked away if he didn't like the script. Tom Mankiewicz, in
> the DVD documentary, talks about a script meeting he had with Connery,
> so the guy clearly had some say in what ended up on the screen.
>
> I think you're right about the script de-emphasising Tracy's death.
> M's dialogue seems to indicate that Bond is on a *personal* mission to
> do away with Blofeld at the beginning of the film (which I've always
> found kind of amusing - he can use his licence to kill during his
> leisure time as well?). However, there's nothing that would clue the
> audience in to the fact that this could be as revenge for the events of
> OHMSS, and anybody who hadn't seen that movie would be none the wiser.
>
> I still think, however, that Connery's insouciance in DAF, which I
> actually find quite charming, shows a kind of 'demob happiness'. He
> knows it's going to be his last time playing the role (well...), he's
> got a great deal out of UA, he has time off to play golf, and overall
> he seems to me to be enjoying himself far more than in YOLT. Perhaps
> the phrase I'd use is 'coasting' rather than 'sleepwalking' but that's
> splitting hairs.
>
> Best
>
> Phil
>

The more I think about it, I wonder how much input the actors have on these
scripts. PB constantly talked about 'humanizing' Bond with more 'down to
earth' Bond films, but that didn't seem to work out too well, with a few
exceptions. I can't remember when and where I read it, but I remember
reading something about PB having problems with director Roger Spottiswoode
on the set while filming TND. PB was concerned about the over-the-top action
sequences and the script. Obviously, the scripts are tailored somewhat to
the actor, but it seems to me that the Bond movies have become runaway
trains that can't be stopped or derailed. Just jump on and go for the ride.
The Bourne movies demonstrated that you can make a good spy movie without
endless explosions and ludicrous scripts.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215812 ]

Do, 02 Februar 2006 07:26

GSHATTERHAND

You have a good point there, Will. Indeed, some bad Bond films are fun!
I enjoy DAF, for example, but think it's a bad Bond film.

And I think TWINE is a very good Bond film but can't describe it as
fun.

So, I guess.........well, dang........this is like Zen!

BTW, something I've noticed about PB's 007 films.......if a fan rates
GE highly he or she will usually not think much of TWINE or DAD (even
if they like PB's performance.)

And if a fan likes TWINE and DAD, he or she will usually not think very
highly of GE. (As I don't.) There must be something significant in
that observation....some where.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215814 ]

Do, 02 Februar 2006 07:46

Draugnar

Then explain me? I like GE (excellent character development!) and TWINE
mostly because of the good girl gone bad and Sophie Marceau's acting (she is
so believable when they get buried in the avalanche) and who could resist
rolling ice cubes all over her flawless skin (closes eyes and dreams a
while). But DAD lost it after the hotel, gained it back somewhat in Cuba
(up until the clinic) and totally went OTT at the end and all the editing
(quick jerk MTV style) was so bad I just don't like the movie.

Draugnar

"GSHATTERHAND" <gshatterhand [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1138861576.785956.173820 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> You have a good point there, Will. Indeed, some bad Bond films are fun!
> I enjoy DAF, for example, but think it's a bad Bond film.
>
> And I think TWINE is a very good Bond film but can't describe it as
> fun.
>
> So, I guess.........well, dang........this is like Zen!
>
> BTW, something I've noticed about PB's 007 films.......if a fan rates
> GE highly he or she will usually not think much of TWINE or DAD (even
> if they like PB's performance.)
>
> And if a fan likes TWINE and DAD, he or she will usually not think very
> highly of GE. (As I don't.) There must be something significant in
> that observation....some where.
>

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215822 ]

Do, 02 Februar 2006 15:37

Will Traynor

"GSHATTERHAND" <gshatterhand [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1138861576.785956.173820 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> You have a good point there, Will. Indeed, some bad Bond films are fun!
> I enjoy DAF, for example, but think it's a bad Bond film.
>

I was watching AVTAK last night and was quite amused at how campy bad it
is.....Roger Moore and Grace Jones in bed? The fire truck sequence. Nuff
said about that. Tanya Roberts as a state geologist? Or Walken's weird
performance as Zorin. I still can't figure it out. But in a weird sort of
way I enjoyed watching it.

> And I think TWINE is a very good Bond film but can't describe it as
> fun.
>
> So, I guess.........well, dang........this is like Zen!
>
> BTW, something I've noticed about PB's 007 films.......if a fan rates
> GE highly he or she will usually not think much of TWINE or DAD (even
> if they like PB's performance.)
>
> And if a fan likes TWINE and DAD, he or she will usually not think very
> highly of GE. (As I don't.) There must be something significant in
> that observation....some where.
>

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215852 ]

Do, 02 Februar 2006 18:34

GSHATTERHAND

Explain you, Draugnar? Well, you're an articulate fellow who has proven
me wrong. Dang it!

Thank Heavens I left myself a loop hole! : )

I wrote that fans who like GE will "usually" not think much of TWINE
and DAD.

Actually, Draugnar, it really is my experience GE fans don't often care
for Brosnan's last two films but that's what I get for generalizing.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215853 ]

Do, 02 Februar 2006 18:45

Mac

GSHATTERHAND wrote:

> Explain you, Draugnar? Well, you're an articulate fellow who has
> proven me wrong. Dang it!
>
> Thank Heavens I left myself a loop hole! : )
>
> I wrote that fans who like GE will "usually" not think much of TWINE
> and DAD.
>
> Actually, Draugnar, it really is my experience GE fans don't often
> care for Brosnan's last two films but that's what I get for
> generalizing.

I must admit I'm with Draugnar, Gary. GOLDENEYE and THE WORLD
IS NOT ENOUGH are my favourite Brosnan Bonds. I prefer them
far and above TOMORROW NEVER DIES and DIE ANOTHER DAY.
--
--Mac

"Vargas does not drink...does not smoke...does not make love.
What do you do, Vargas?"

"Vargas had a loop hole. The continuity ointment sorted it out."

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215867 ]

Do, 02 Februar 2006 20:40

Will Traynor

"Mac" <see.mac [at] SPAMLESSvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:44eup8F1s23rU1 [at] individual.net...
> GSHATTERHAND wrote:
>
>> Explain you, Draugnar? Well, you're an articulate fellow who has
>> proven me wrong. Dang it!
>>
>> Thank Heavens I left myself a loop hole! : )
>>
>> I wrote that fans who like GE will "usually" not think much of TWINE
>> and DAD.
>>
>> Actually, Draugnar, it really is my experience GE fans don't often
>> care for Brosnan's last two films but that's what I get for
>> generalizing.
>
> I must admit I'm with Draugnar, Gary. GOLDENEYE and THE WORLD
> IS NOT ENOUGH are my favourite Brosnan Bonds. I prefer them
> far and above TOMORROW NEVER DIES and DIE ANOTHER DAY. --Mac
>

Same here, they are my favorites also.

> "Vargas does not drink...does not smoke...does not make love.
> What do you do, Vargas?"
>
> "Vargas had a loop hole. The continuity ointment sorted it out."
>
>
>
>
>

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215868 ]

Do, 02 Februar 2006 21:05

Draugnar

Hmmm. That's three out of maybe 20 regular posters (not counting the
resident troll) that buck your theory. 15% isn't too shabby, although I'll
grant that, unless ten say they like GE and TWINE better than TND and DAD or
they like TND and DAD better then GE and TWINE (still the opposite alignment
from your proposed theory), that you still get the "usually" props. But I
don't see it happening. DAD and GE are totally different, one being a
homage to the past and the other being a much more hardcore introduction to
the new 007. About the only commonality they share is that both are about
vengeance for Bond (GE: 007 is after 006; DAD: 007 wants revenge for the
prison stay and subsequent disavowment), but TND turned into a revenge story
after Paris was killed and TWINE was all about defending the honor of MI6
when it and he were besmirched by Renard (or so they thought) using 007 as
the unwitting delivery boy and became even more personal when M was
kidnapped.

-Draugnar

"Will" <willt65 [at] comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Fu2dnXP6ecSv_X_enZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>
> "Mac" <see.mac [at] SPAMLESSvirgin.net> wrote in message
> news:44eup8F1s23rU1 [at] individual.net...
>> GSHATTERHAND wrote:
>>
>>> Explain you, Draugnar? Well, you're an articulate fellow who has
>>> proven me wrong. Dang it!
>>>
>>> Thank Heavens I left myself a loop hole! : )
>>>
>>> I wrote that fans who like GE will "usually" not think much of TWINE
>>> and DAD.
>>>
>>> Actually, Draugnar, it really is my experience GE fans don't often
>>> care for Brosnan's last two films but that's what I get for
>>> generalizing.
>>
>> I must admit I'm with Draugnar, Gary. GOLDENEYE and THE WORLD
>> IS NOT ENOUGH are my favourite Brosnan Bonds. I prefer them
>> far and above TOMORROW NEVER DIES and DIE ANOTHER DAY. --Mac
>>
>
> Same here, they are my favorites also.
>
>> "Vargas does not drink...does not smoke...does not make love.
>> What do you do, Vargas?"
>>
>> "Vargas had a loop hole. The continuity ointment sorted it out."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215870 ]

Do, 02 Februar 2006 21:15

Paul Clarke

Will wrote:
> "Mac" <see.mac [at] SPAMLESSvirgin.net> wrote in message
> news:44eup8F1s23rU1 [at] individual.net...
>
>>GSHATTERHAND wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Explain you, Draugnar? Well, you're an articulate fellow who has
>>>proven me wrong. Dang it!
>>>
>>>Thank Heavens I left myself a loop hole! : )
>>>
>>>I wrote that fans who like GE will "usually" not think much of TWINE
>>>and DAD.
>>>
>>>Actually, Draugnar, it really is my experience GE fans don't often
>>>care for Brosnan's last two films but that's what I get for
>>>generalizing.
>>
>>I must admit I'm with Draugnar, Gary. GOLDENEYE and THE WORLD
>>IS NOT ENOUGH are my favourite Brosnan Bonds. I prefer them
>>far and above TOMORROW NEVER DIES and DIE ANOTHER DAY. --Mac
>>
>
>
> Same here, they are my favorites also.

Another vote for GE and TWINE as the best Brosnan Bonds.

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215916 ]

Fr, 03 Februar 2006 04:43

GSHATTERHAND

Mac, Draugnar, Will, Paul...........my statement that those who like GE
usually don't care for TWINE and DAD was obviously based on
insufficient research. Well, what if I switch the "and" in the above
statement to "or" and then..........Oh heck, I was wrong.

All the best,
G(ary)SHATTERHAND

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215922 ]

Fr, 03 Februar 2006 05:57

Will Traynor

"GSHATTERHAND" <gshatterhand [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1138938182.803311.223990 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Mac, Draugnar, Will, Paul...........my statement that those who like GE
> usually don't care for TWINE and DAD was obviously based on
> insufficient research. Well, what if I switch the "and" in the above
> statement to "or" and then..........Oh heck, I was wrong.
>
> All the best,
> G(ary)SHATTERHAND
>

I'm not sure you could call this a scientific poll ;-)

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215924 ]

Fr, 03 Februar 2006 06:06

JHause

Worst casting:

A) Lois Chiles as a rocket scientist
B) Tanya Roberts as an expert geologist
C) Denise Richards as nuclear physicist

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215934 ]

Fr, 03 Februar 2006 12:08

Tom Zielinski

"JHause" <JHause [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1138943204.713718.240750 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Worst casting:
>
> A) Lois Chiles as a rocket scientist
> B) Tanya Roberts as an expert geologist
> C) Denise Richards as nuclear physicist

Pretty much agreed.

D) Wayne Newton (1989)
E) David Hedison (1989)
F) a badly-toupeed Don Stroud (1989)

"Licence to Kill" had the worst casting in the series.

And possibly

G) Halle Berry (based solely on the performance delivered)

That said, the Brosnan films easily boasts the best casting of all the
films. Judi Dench, John Cleese, Sophie Marceau, Famke Janssen, Sean Bean,
Michael Kitchen, Robbie Coltrane, Michele Yeoh, Robert Carlyle, Jonathan
Pryce, Ricky Jay, Colin Salmon, Michael Madsen, Toby Stephens, and I'm
tempted to mention Vincent Schiavelli and Joe Don-Baker. There's a lot of
talent in that list.

Tom Zielinski
"...Bond's eyes narrowed. He knew, at some point, he would have to slay this
particular dragon. He settled back in his chair, removing a Morlands' three
ring special from the gunmetal cigarette case. As he waited for the
delicious Balkan/Turkish blend to take effect on his lungs, he reflected
that Lee Tamahori has oft claimed to be rampantly heterosexual..."

Re: PB's contribution to Bond [message #215942 ]

Fr, 03 Februar 2006 15:27

Will Traynor

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