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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: magic and men
| Re: magic and men [message #207310] |
Di, 17 Januar 2006 00:51 |
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"Troels Forchhammer" <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> skrev i en meddelelse
news:Xns974DAF90E6780T.Forch [at] 130.133.1.4...
> In message
> <news:1136576781.710157.146780 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
> Michael [at] xenite.org enriched us with:
> > One of the Orcs in the Tower of Cirith Ungol (the Snaga who
> > refuses to obey Shagrat, I think -- I don't have my books with me
> > to check) says that the Watchers guarding the entrance to the fort
> > were "Tarks' work" (made by the Men of Gondor), and the Watchers
> > are clearly magical in nature, given their ability to bar Sam's
> > way.
> I have always read that passage as referring to getting past the
> Watchers rather than the watchers themselves:
> There's a great fighter about, one of those bloody-handed
> Elves, or one of the filthy /tarks/. He's coming here, I
> tell you. You heard the bell. He's got past the Watchers,
> and that's /tark's/ work. He's on the stairs. And until
> he's off them, I'm not going down. Not if you were a
> Nazgûl, I wouldn't.'
> [LotR VI,1 'The Tower of Cirith Ungol']
> I've always read this as all referring to this 'great fighter' (Sam),
> and the argument for Sam being a 'tark' is that getting past the
> Watchers is a tark's work (the 'a' is missing, but tark is in the
> singular genitive, whereas I would have thought that it would have
> been plural to refer to the watchers as the work of tarks rather than
> to getting past them as the work of /a/ tark).
> Anyway, I am not convinced that the Two Watchers are of Númenórean
> origin as the rest of the fortress. The stone-work might be, but the
> 'Watching' sounds to me rather as Sauron's work:
> They seemed to be carved out of huge blocks of stone,
> immovable, and yet they were aware: some dreadful spirit
> of evil vigilance abode in them. They knew an enemy.
> [ibid.]
I should agree with this. The Watchers were not only imbued with an evil
vigilance. This alone would not rule out the Watchers to be Númenorean in
origin, and then Sauron perverting them to his purpose. We know that he was
good at that. But their physical shapes were also hideous. The Númenoreans
would be unlikely to carve statues in the likeness of three-headed, claw-
handed vultures like Siamese triplets, unless they be renegade Númenoreans
already under Sauron's sway.
Of course the Watchers may have been the work of renegade Númenoreans,
aided by or at the bidding of Sauron, but I know of nothing to specifically
either indicate or contradict this.
If it were the Watchers which were "tark's work" referred to by Snaga
then I suppose the wording would be "and they are /tarks'/ work" instead of
"and that's /tark's/ work"
Hrafn.
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| Re: magic and men [message #207580 ] |
Sa, 21 Januar 2006 19:05 |
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Raven schreef:
> "Troels Forchhammer" <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:Xns974DAF90E6780T.Forch [at] 130.133.1.4...
>
> > In message
> > <news:1136576781.710157.146780 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
> > Michael [at] xenite.org enriched us with:
>
> > > One of the Orcs in the Tower of Cirith Ungol (the Snaga who
> > > refuses to obey Shagrat, I think -- I don't have my books with me
> > > to check) says that the Watchers guarding the entrance to the fort
> > > were "Tarks' work" (made by the Men of Gondor), and the Watchers
> > > are clearly magical in nature, given their ability to bar Sam's
> > > way.
>
> > I have always read that passage as referring to getting past the
> > Watchers rather than the watchers themselves:
>
> > There's a great fighter about, one of those bloody-handed
> > Elves, or one of the filthy /tarks/. He's coming here, I
> > tell you. You heard the bell. He's got past the Watchers,
> > and that's /tark's/ work. He's on the stairs. And until
> > he's off them, I'm not going down. Not if you were a
> > Nazg=FBl, I wouldn't.'
> > [LotR VI,1 'The Tower of Cirith Ungol']
>
> > I've always read this as all referring to this 'great fighter' (Sam),
> > and the argument for Sam being a 'tark' is that getting past the
> > Watchers is a tark's work (the 'a' is missing, but tark is in the
> > singular genitive, whereas I would have thought that it would have
> > been plural to refer to the watchers as the work of tarks rather than
> > to getting past them as the work of /a/ tark).
>
> > Anyway, I am not convinced that the Two Watchers are of N=FAmen=F3rean
> > origin as the rest of the fortress. The stone-work might be, but the
> > 'Watching' sounds to me rather as Sauron's work:
>
> > They seemed to be carved out of huge blocks of stone,
> > immovable, and yet they were aware: some dreadful spirit
> > of evil vigilance abode in them. They knew an enemy.
> > [ibid.]
>
> I should agree with this.
[We think the bird-brain is right, too - Een Wilde Ier & Henriette]
[With all due respect, of course!]
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