| Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204239] |
Di, 17 Januar 2006 01:21 |
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I didn't see this mentioned in the group FAQ, but was wondering: If Anakin
was alive when Luke takes his Vader mask off at the end of ROTJ and then
dies, why does his Force-ghost appear as the young Anakin? Wouldn't Obi-Wan
then appear as Ewan instead of Sir Alec? What's the reasoning behind this?
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204240 ] |
Di, 17 Januar 2006 01:20 |
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cause anakin died when he turned into darth..
"Crimson*" <user [at] isp.com> wrote in message
news:xMWyf.12010$PL5.4952 [at] newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>I didn't see this mentioned in the group FAQ, but was wondering: If Anakin
>was alive when Luke takes his Vader mask off at the end of ROTJ and then
>dies, why does his Force-ghost appear as the young Anakin? Wouldn't
>Obi-Wan then appear as Ewan instead of Sir Alec? What's the reasoning
>behind this?
>
>
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204241 ] |
Di, 17 Januar 2006 01:51 |
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I considered that (like what Obi-Wan told Luke about Vader killing his
father), but after seeing Anakin & Luke talk in ROTJ there seemed enough
Anakin left to be the Force-ghost from the original version. Are there any
other explanations?
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204243 ] |
Di, 17 Januar 2006 04:17 |
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In article <bcXyf.12035$PL5.4842 [at] newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>,
"Crimson*" <user [at] isp.com> wrote:
> I considered that (like what Obi-Wan told Luke about Vader killing his
> father), but after seeing Anakin & Luke talk in ROTJ there seemed enough
> Anakin left to be the Force-ghost from the original version. Are there any
> other explanations?
The offical explanation is that Anakin's ghost appears as the young
Hayden version because that's how he looked when he was last a Jedi
(ie. before becoming the Sith Lord Darth Vader) ... BUT it's an very
unsatisfactory reason since the whole point of Return of the Jedi is
Luke redeeming Anakin - he therefore should have been left as the older
looking Jedi ghost. :-(
Obi-Wan and Yoda of course were both older Jedi when they died, so
their Jedi ghosts are older looking instead of younger looking.
Stuff Greedo shooting first, removing Ewoks, re-replacing the Jabba
musical number, ... they're all minor details, it's Anakin's Jedi ghost
that should be reverted back to the older version in the Super Special
Edition Saga DVD six movie box set.
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204245 ] |
Di, 17 Januar 2006 05:03 |
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"Crimson*" <user [at] isp.com> wrote in message
news:xMWyf.12010$PL5.4952 [at] newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> I didn't see this mentioned in the group FAQ, but was wondering: If Anakin
> was alive when Luke takes his Vader mask off at the end of ROTJ and then
> dies, why does his Force-ghost appear as the young Anakin? Wouldn't
Obi-Wan
> then appear as Ewan instead of Sir Alec? What's the reasoning behind
this?
>
This has been a painful discussion ever since the re-release of the ROTJ.
Lucas never asked the fans. A and I, for one, think he should have left
Sebastian Shaw at the end of ROTJ. Inserting Hayden was, IMHO, a terrible
mistake (one of many).
--
Chuck
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204247 ] |
Di, 17 Januar 2006 05:50 |
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Taking out the great actor Sir Alec Guiness and a beloved character
from the original SW at the triumphant ending would be considered a
crime even by casual SW moviegoers. Taking out the basically unknown
old Anakin ghost isn't. They only remember the unmasking scene, and
the ghost of him isn't even recognizable as the same guy - if you
showed average people a picture of him they'd say "who the hell is
that?". Show them a pic of Guiness and they'd instantly say "Obi Won
Kenobi!!"
The 'non-scarred' ghost doesn't even have any lines, the key scene
for that actor is the unmasking which was left alone. All the talk
about whether the young or old versions should have been used can
easily be argued either way, but as far as what casual viewers at least
would not be offended by, leaving old Obi alone makes sense.
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204251 ] |
Di, 17 Januar 2006 06:35 |
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Lucas would have been more consistent if he showed an Anakin and
Obi-wan portrayed by Hayden and Ewan, and a younger looking CGI Yoda.
That way, he could easily have explained that the force ghosts showed
how they looked like at their prime.
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204261 ] |
Di, 17 Januar 2006 17:08 |
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Yeah but I think avoiding erasing any Guiness footage overrides any
concerns about being absolutely 'Star Wars correct' here.
Guiness was a REAL knight : ) .. Frenchy
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204264 ] |
Di, 17 Januar 2006 20:09 |
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Chuck wrote:
>. A and I, for one, think he should have left
> Sebastian Shaw at the end of ROTJ. Inserting Hayden was, IMHO, a terrible
> mistake (one of many).
I wouldn't have minded Hayden if they'd aged him with makeup. But that
young image totally ruined the whole "pass the torch to a new
generation" tone of the original scene, IMHO.
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204267 ] |
Di, 17 Januar 2006 21:07 |
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In article <1137524981.179490.23710 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
jjj_soper [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> Chuck wrote:
> >. A and I, for one, think he should have left
> > Sebastian Shaw at the end of ROTJ. Inserting Hayden was, IMHO, a terrible
> > mistake (one of many).
>
> I wouldn't have minded Hayden if they'd aged him with makeup. But that
> young image totally ruined the whole "pass the torch to a new
> generation" tone of the original scene, IMHO.
Changing Anakin to the Hayden version also ruins the whole point of
Luke redeeming Anakin. :-(
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204277 ] |
Mi, 18 Januar 2006 05:21 |
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"Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
news:180120060907057595%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> In article <1137524981.179490.23710 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> jjj_soper [at] hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> Chuck wrote:
>> >. A and I, for one, think he should have left
>> > Sebastian Shaw at the end of ROTJ. Inserting Hayden was, IMHO, a
>> > terrible
>> > mistake (one of many).
>>
>> I wouldn't have minded Hayden if they'd aged him with makeup. But that
>> young image totally ruined the whole "pass the torch to a new
>> generation" tone of the original scene, IMHO.
>
> Changing Anakin to the Hayden version also ruins the whole point of
> Luke redeeming Anakin. :-(
Changing Anakin to Hayden seems strange to me because Luke did not know
about his father till Vader told him and he had never seen him till he
removed the mask. So wouldn't it confused Luke seeing this person standing
there that he didn't know?? I refer to my post about episode 1, 2,3 and 4
where I had a problem with the age of the actor playing Vader and several
people pointed out that he would age and look different after he was burnt
and got zapped etc. So he shouldn't resemble a young Anakin at all with out
the mask.
Hope this makes sense
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204282 ] |
Mi, 18 Januar 2006 06:11 |
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Being in their prime physically isn't necessarily the same as being in their
prime as Jedi.
Clearly, Yoda and Obi Wan were in their prime later on in their lives, as
they had much time in solitude to contemplate the mysteries of the force
before training young Luke. Whereas, Anakin was in his Jedi prime before his
body was scarred on Mustafar.
Remember in the Phantom Menace how Qui Gonn describes "Midichlorians"?
Little creatures living in the cells of the body. Well consider that Anakin
lost half or more of his biological body mass when he nearly died on
Mustafar...that had to limit the total number of Midichlorians in his body,
and therefore limit his force-sensitivity. So, technically, Anakin was in
his Jedi prime right before his fall to the Dark Side.
Yes, Luke did redeem him, and therefore pave the way for him to become a
force ghost. But his "Jedi Prime" was many many years prior.
Now, as to the preference of Hayden Christiansen vs. Sebastian Shaw as the
Force ghost...to me, it really doesn't matter. I've got both versions...and
I consider this particular detail to be not wort the argument...
....There's always the issue of Kirstie Alley vs. Robin Curtis playing Saavik
in ST II and III, repsectively. This, however, is not the newsgroup for such
a discussion.
t'Arrilaiu
"KobeWanKenobi" <kobewankenobi [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137476146.147159.247760 [at] g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Lucas would have been more consistent if he showed an Anakin and
> Obi-wan portrayed by Hayden and Ewan, and a younger looking CGI Yoda.
> That way, he could easily have explained that the force ghosts showed
> how they looked like at their prime.
>
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204283 ] |
Mi, 18 Januar 2006 06:13 |
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KobeWanKenobi wrote:
> Lucas would have been more consistent if he showed an Anakin and
> Obi-wan portrayed by Hayden and Ewan, and a younger looking CGI Yoda.
> That way, he could easily have explained that the force ghosts showed
> how they looked like at their prime.
Except that Lucas would have to have Obi's force ghost in Empire also
appear as Ewan, and would also have to re-dub all of Guiness' post-Obi's
death-lines (Run Luke, run!", "You will go to the Dagobah system", etc,),
which would basically boil down to erasing Guiness from the OT
completely, save for ANH. And that would suck.
Anakin and Yoda's force ghosts only appear once in the OT. The way the
scene was originally was fine, and I understand the reasoning for the
change to the new DVD version. But enough is enough. The movie doesn't
need *more* changes to justify the new batch of changes.
--
-Grue
------------------------------------------------------------ -------
An unbreakable toy is good for breaking other toys.
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204284 ] |
Mi, 18 Januar 2006 06:17 |
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Chuck wrote:
> Lucas never asked the fans.
Eghads! You mean he never asked if he could change something that he
created and owns all the rights to?
What's next? Is he going to have to ask the fans if he can drive his car?
--
-Grue
------------------------------------------------------------ -------
An unbreakable toy is good for breaking other toys.
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204286 ] |
Mi, 18 Januar 2006 06:48 |
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t'Arrilaiu
"Remember in the Phantom Menace how Qui Gonn describes "Midichlorians"?
Little creatures living in the cells of the body. Well consider that
Anakin lost half or more of his biological body mass when he nearly
died on Mustafar...that had to limit the total number of Midichlorians
in his body, and therefore limit his force-sensitivity. So,
technically, Anakin was in his Jedi prime right before his fall to the
Dark Side. "
Right before his fall, that was definitely Anakin's prime as a jedi.
But maybe not as a force user.
Technically, Anakin may not have the same amount of midichlorians after
his multiple amputations, but that doesn't mean he has not learned how
to harness better the remaining ones.
The only thing Anakin learned from the Emperor in ROTS is how to
harness his anger. But the time between ROTS and ANH, we can assume
that it was the time Anakin was thought more of the mysteries and
powers of the dark side by the Emperor. So as a force user, Anakin
would be even stronger in ROTJ than he was after ROTS. Just like the
Emperor, he may not be as capable physically, but in use of the force,
he is certainly more powerful.
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204289 ] |
Mi, 18 Januar 2006 08:41 |
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"Chuck" <yadayada [at] blah.blah> wrote in message
news:sJudnQwbup038VHenZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
> This has been a painful discussion ever since the re-release of the ROTJ.
> Lucas never asked the fans. A and I, for one, think he should have left
> Sebastian Shaw at the end of ROTJ. Inserting Hayden was, IMHO, a terrible
> mistake (one of many).
The worst part of this change is not the substitution of Hayden it's the
outfit he's wearing. Anakin wore a very specific style of Jedi outfit which
was quite unique and clearly a precursor of his Vader suit. Lucas changed
the head but left him wearing something that he never wore in his life.
What's that about?
--
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?"
http://esnips.com/web/MyStarWarsToys
http://groups.msn.com/MyStarWarsCollection/shoebox.msnw
http://www.alt.fan.starwars.freeservers.com/
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204304 ] |
Do, 19 Januar 2006 00:13 |
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They're ghosts, maybe they are able to just conjure up whatever clothes
they want to be wearing, and he wanted to be seen in some fancy new
duds.
Or another excuse to release a "new collectible Anakin's Ghost action
figure with all-new wardrobe!"
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204390 ] |
So, 22 Januar 2006 04:04 |
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Utter horseshit. Vader and Annakin are the same person, in the same body. If
Annakin "died" then his ghost would have been right alongside Obi-Wan's in
Empire Strikes Back, both of them coaching Luke. I am sick to death of this
lame-ass excuse to put Hayden Christensen in Return of the Jedi.
> cause anakin died when he turned into darth..
>
> "Crimson*" <user [at] isp.com> wrote in message
> news:xMWyf.12010$PL5.4952 [at] newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>>I didn't see this mentioned in the group FAQ, but was wondering: If Anakin
>>was alive when Luke takes his Vader mask off at the end of ROTJ and then
>>dies, why does his Force-ghost appear as the young Anakin? Wouldn't
>>Obi-Wan then appear as Ewan instead of Sir Alec? What's the reasoning
>>behind this?
>>
>>
>
>
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| Re: Anakin's Ghost in ROTJ [message #204393 ] |
So, 22 Januar 2006 05:41 |
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In article <cDCAf.4306$vU2.985 [at] newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Broken Spirit v 2.0" <radiohead3 [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
> Utter horseshit. Vader and Annakin are the same person, in the same body. If
> Annakin "died" then his ghost would have been right alongside Obi-Wan's in
> Empire Strikes Back, both of them coaching Luke. I am sick to death of this
> lame-ass excuse to put Hayden Christensen in Return of the Jedi.
"Anakin died" is an expression. Obviously the person didn't die, but
everything that was Anakin did - he bcame a different person called
Darth Vader ... BUT Luke redeemed him and he returned to being Anakin
just before he really died in RotJ.
But it is true that the given reason for swpping to Hayden as the Jedi
ghost is ridiculous.
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