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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: Stamp out pinyin!
| Re: Stamp out pinyin! [message #196863] |
Mi, 04 Januar 2006 02:19 |
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BaronjosefR <baronjosefr [at] aol.com> wrote:
:>From: Louis Epstein
:>Date: 7/12/2004 9:22 PM Eastern Standard Time
:>Message-id: <EsSdnYxbUKT6pG7d4p2dnA [at] fcc.net>
:>
:>"?jevind L?ng" <dnivejo.gnal [at] swipnet.se> wrote:
:>> "Louis Epstein" wrote:
:>>
:>> [snip]
:>>
:>>> Pinyin,the scheme the Communist Chinese government (not the Nationalist
:>>> government on Taiwan) insists be used to transliterate Chinese words in
:>>> the Roman alphabet,which was spinelessly accepted by the great majority
:>>> of the Western press in the early 1980s,causing a great breakdown of
:>>> consistency between things written before and after that time.
:>>
:>> The traditional Chinese script is difficult learn. That is the prime
:>> motivation for its gradual introduction in China.
:>
:>Its adoption OUTSIDE China is strictly a kowtow to the Chinese
:>dictators.
:
: I disagree. The script is part and parcel of the language itself, and
: there are oft-times subtle meaning where the westernization of the
: worlds doesn't convey those intricate meanings.
You seem to completely miss what I'm talking about.
I am complaining of the use of pinyin (e.g. writing
"Qiao Guanhua" instead of "Chiao Kuan-hua" for the
former PRC Foreign Minister of the 1970s).The use
of a "Q" for a "ch" sound is a conceit expressing
contempt for the Roman alphabet...transliteration
into Roman letters needs to be done by those who are
native users of those letters who listen and choose
the best letters,not those who are native speakers
of the sounds who tell people with another alphabet
how to render it regardless of what sounds the letters
traditionally represent.
Demanding that English-speakers refer to Peking as "Beijing" amounts to
an arrogance not found in European nations that find nothing wrong
with the use of translated names for their cities.
: How about the Japanese and South Koreans? Are we to say that we are kow-towing
: to their dictators? As well, aren't we making them kowtow to how we as
: westerners believe the Chinese script and language should be presented?
We have a right to use our own language in referring to others.
We're not telling them to speak English,we shouldn't let them
tell us we can't use English when talking about them.
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
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| Re: Stamp out pinyin! [message #196881 ] |
Do, 05 Januar 2006 01:42 |
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On 2006-01-04, Louis Epstein <le [at] main.put.com> wrote in
<976dneFnivgyvybeRVn-jw [at] velocitywest.net>:
[snip]
> You seem to completely miss what I'm talking about.
> I am complaining of the use of pinyin (e.g. writing
> "Qiao Guanhua" instead of "Chiao Kuan-hua" for the
> former PRC Foreign Minister of the 1970s).The use
> of a "Q" for a "ch" sound is a conceit expressing
> contempt for the Roman alphabet...transliteration
> into Roman letters needs to be done by those who are
> native users of those letters who listen and choose
> the best letters,not those who are native speakers
> of the sounds who tell people with another alphabet
> how to render it regardless of what sounds the letters
> traditionally represent.
The supposed "ch" sound represented by "Q" in pinyin isn't a sound that
occurs in English. Does it occur in any other language that uses the
Roman alphabet? "Q" is not better represented by "ch". An ignorant
English-speaker will not make the correct sound whether they are reading
"q" or "ch."
I learned Mandarin pronunciation with the aid of pinyin. I have often
been told that for a beginner my pronunciation is very standard.
Alternate forms of romanization don't make it any easier than pinyin for a
totally ignorant person to take a stab at correctly saying a Chinese word.
>
> Demanding that English-speakers refer to Peking as "Beijing" amounts to
> an arrogance not found in European nations that find nothing wrong
> with the use of translated names for their cities.
It's not really that much harder to spell. You can dot all those letters
in the middle at the same time, no problem. ;-)
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| Re: Stamp out pinyin! [message #196884 ] |
Do, 05 Januar 2006 02:34 |
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Huan the hound <huanthehound [at] netscape.net> wrote in
news:VXZuf.414$vf7.319 [at] fe06.lga:
> On 2006-01-04, Louis Epstein <le [at] main.put.com> wrote in
> <976dneFnivgyvybeRVn-jw [at] velocitywest.net>:
>
> [snip]
>> You seem to completely miss what I'm talking about.
>> I am complaining of the use of pinyin (e.g. writing
>> "Qiao Guanhua" instead of "Chiao Kuan-hua" for the
>> former PRC Foreign Minister of the 1970s).The use
>> of a "Q" for a "ch" sound is a conceit expressing
>> contempt for the Roman alphabet...transliteration
>> into Roman letters needs to be done by those who are
>> native users of those letters who listen and choose
>> the best letters,not those who are native speakers
>> of the sounds who tell people with another alphabet
>> how to render it regardless of what sounds the letters
>> traditionally represent.
>
> The supposed "ch" sound represented by "Q" in pinyin isn't a sound
> that occurs in English. Does it occur in any other language that
> uses the Roman alphabet? "Q" is not better represented by "ch".
> An ignorant English-speaker will not make the correct sound
> whether they are reading "q" or "ch."
The 'ch' sound represented by the pinyin 'q' is softer than the 'ch'
sound in English. Once one accepts the conventions of pinyin, it's a
far better representation of Chinese pronunciation than Wade-Giles.
But I suppose Louis Epstein the American would know more about this
than Yuk Tang, a Chinaman who's been accustomed to W-G throughout his
life, whose name was anglicised in W-G fashion.
Incidentally, my name has no T-sound, despite its spelling in W-G.
The pinyin version is Deng, which despite its approximation for a
dialect thousands of miles removed from me, is closer to how I'd
pronounce it.
> I learned Mandarin pronunciation with the aid of pinyin. I have
> often been told that for a beginner my pronunciation is very
> standard. Alternate forms of romanization don't make it any easier
> than pinyin for a totally ignorant person to take a stab at
> correctly saying a Chinese word.
Not only that, but a Cantonese person who knows the Cantonese
pronunciation but not the Mandarin can make a good stab at
anglicising it, evidence that pinyin aids communication. The
numerous exceptions of the rule in Wade-Giles make my head ache. In
contrast, I've had conversations with mainlanders despite their not
knowing Cantonese and my not knowing Mandarin, simply by translating
my Cantonese into Mandarin via pinyin anglicisation.
>> Demanding that English-speakers refer to Peking as "Beijing"
>> amounts to an arrogance not found in European nations that find
>> nothing wrong with the use of translated names for their cities.
>
> It's not really that much harder to spell. You can dot all those
> letters in the middle at the same time, no problem. ;-)
Beijing is actually a far better approximation of the pronunciation
than Peking. If Wade-Giles was based on Cantonese, then it should be
'buck (except the -ck is not pronounced, but merely denotes a sudden,
hinted at -ck stop of the u vowel) ging (except the -ng is again
hinted at rather than said out loud)'. Nowhere in China is its
capital pronounced Peking or anything resembling it.
But I suppose Epstein's already said that he prefers anglicisation to
be for the benefit of the anglos, rather than to express Chinese in
terms those anglos might understand as seems to be the Chinese
government's misapprehension. In which case I would urge him to stop
any kind of fraternisation with those dastardly Chinese in ways which
would signify his submission to them, and instead SPEAK VERY LOUDLY
IN ENGLISH until they understand what he's saying. Hand gestures are
optional.
--
Cheers, ymt.
'The use of a "Q" for a "ch" sound is a conceit expressing contempt
for the Roman alphabet...transliteration into Roman letters needs to
be done by those who are native users of those letters who listen and
choose the best letters,not those who are native speakers of the
sounds who tell people with another alphabet how to render it
regardless of what sounds the letters traditionally represent.'
- Louis Epstein
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| Re: Stamp out pinyin! [message #196891 ] |
Do, 05 Januar 2006 15:23 |
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Yuk Tang wrote:
> But I suppose Epstein's already said that he prefers anglicisation to
> be for the benefit of the anglos, rather than to express Chinese in
> terms those anglos might understand as seems to be the Chinese
> government's misapprehension. In which case I would urge him to stop
> any kind of fraternisation with those dastardly Chinese in ways which
> would signify his submission to them, and instead SPEAK VERY LOUDLY
> IN ENGLISH until they understand what he's saying.
LOL. A good morning laugh is always IMPORTANT :-)
> Hand gestures are optional.
Sorry, not in English - you're confusing us with Italians and other
Mediterranean types.
--
derek
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| Re: Stamp out pinyin! [message #196893 ] |
Do, 05 Januar 2006 18:32 |
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"Derek Broughton" <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:nnmv83-uq8.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca...
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>
>> But I suppose Epstein's already said that he prefers anglicisation to
>> be for the benefit of the anglos, rather than to express Chinese in
>> terms those anglos might understand as seems to be the Chinese
>> government's misapprehension. In which case I would urge him to stop
>> any kind of fraternisation with those dastardly Chinese in ways which
>> would signify his submission to them, and instead SPEAK VERY LOUDLY
>> IN ENGLISH until they understand what he's saying.
>
> LOL. A good morning laugh is always IMPORTANT :-)
>
>> Hand gestures are optional.
>
> Sorry, not in English - you're confusing us with Italians and other
> Mediterranean types.
Nonsense - Scots use LOTS of hand gestures. Slightly more
accurately descriptive than the Italian style gestures too.
--
Jette Goldie
jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
("reply to" is spamblocked)
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| Re: Stamp out pinyin! [message #196897 ] |
Fr, 06 Januar 2006 01:52 |
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Jette Goldie wrote:
>
> "Derek Broughton" <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
> news:nnmv83-uq8.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca...
>> Yuk Tang wrote:
>>
>>> But I suppose Epstein's already said that he prefers anglicisation to
>>> be for the benefit of the anglos, rather than to express Chinese in
>>> terms those anglos might understand as seems to be the Chinese
>>> government's misapprehension. In which case I would urge him to stop
>>> any kind of fraternisation with those dastardly Chinese in ways which
>>> would signify his submission to them, and instead SPEAK VERY LOUDLY
>>> IN ENGLISH until they understand what he's saying.
>>
>> LOL. A good morning laugh is always IMPORTANT :-)
>>
>>> Hand gestures are optional.
>>
>> Sorry, not in English - you're confusing us with Italians and other
>> Mediterranean types.
>
> Nonsense - Scots use LOTS of hand gestures. Slightly more
> accurately descriptive than the Italian style gestures too.
Sorry. I obviously haven't actually spent enough time in Scotland (in fact,
I haven't been there for almost 40 years), because they're not part of the
Scottish emigrant culture I'm familiar with. The famous English "stiff
upper lip", however, goes along with stiff upper limbs.
--
derek
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| Re: Stamp out pinyin! [message #196900 ] |
Fr, 06 Januar 2006 03:07 |
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Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in
news:4kr093-867.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca:
> Jette Goldie wrote:
>> "Derek Broughton" <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
>> news:nnmv83-uq8.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca...
>>> Yuk Tang wrote:
>>>
>>>> But I suppose Epstein's already said that he prefers
>>>> anglicisation to be for the benefit of the anglos, rather than
>>>> to express Chinese in terms those anglos might understand as
>>>> seems to be the Chinese government's misapprehension. In which
>>>> case I would urge him to stop any kind of fraternisation with
>>>> those dastardly Chinese in ways which would signify his
>>>> submission to them, and instead SPEAK VERY LOUDLY IN ENGLISH
>>>> until they understand what he's saying.
>>>
>>> LOL. A good morning laugh is always IMPORTANT :-)
>>>
>>>> Hand gestures are optional.
>>>
>>> Sorry, not in English - you're confusing us with Italians and
>>> other Mediterranean types.
>>
>> Nonsense - Scots use LOTS of hand gestures. Slightly more
>> accurately descriptive than the Italian style gestures too.
>
> Sorry. I obviously haven't actually spent enough time in Scotland
> (in fact, I haven't been there for almost 40 years), because
> they're not part of the Scottish emigrant culture I'm familiar
> with. The famous English "stiff upper lip", however, goes along
> with stiff upper limbs.
Which parts of England were you familiar with? In the chavvy
regions, gestures indicating threats to thump the other person are
common. The various strips in Viz are depressingly accurate, as
representative of Essex as they are of Newcastle.
--
Cheers, ymt.
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| Re: Stamp out pinyin! [message #196906 ] |
Fr, 06 Januar 2006 14:35 |
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Yuk Tang wrote:
>> Sorry. I obviously haven't actually spent enough time in Scotland
>> (in fact, I haven't been there for almost 40 years), because
>> they're not part of the Scottish emigrant culture I'm familiar
>> with. The famous English "stiff upper lip", however, goes along
>> with stiff upper limbs.
>
> Which parts of England were you familiar with? In the chavvy
> regions, gestures indicating threats to thump the other person are
> common. The various strips in Viz are depressingly accurate, as
> representative of Essex as they are of Newcastle.
Threats to thump a person are probably largely gesticular in every language
- once you get to that point the portions of the brain responsible for
verbalization have been largely disconnected. There's probably a really
good reason why gesticular is only one letter different from
testicular :-).
--
derek
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