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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Lily's profession
Lily's profession [message #196703] So, 08 Januar 2006 08:12
wadkin2000  
I don't know if this has been addressed before, but do we know if Lily
worked at the MOM? After reading HBP again (oh, for about the fourth
time!), the part with Slughorn saying how gifted she was with potions
(and forgive me if this info is in any of the other books, my brain is
on overload right now!) that she worked at the MOM(Perhaps as an
Unspeakable?) On another topic (sorry, but it just came to mind), on
the whole "You have your mother's eyes" theory, what if Lily's
sacrifice for Harry at Godric's Hollow triggered a kind of "good"
horcrux effect: When she died, part of HER soul (similar to an echo or
shadow) with all of her love, went into Harry. That's why when
everyone sees him, they see Lily's eyes.
Re: Lily's profession [message #196725 ] Mo, 09 Januar 2006 09:50
cspirit  
Lily working at MoM...particularly as an Unspeakable...well its
certainly a possibility.
But still...
We have to look at what MoM represents in the HP series. Its a
political institution with all the pros and cons. We are told nothing
that'll make us like the MoM and the ministers. They control the
papers, send aweful teachers to train young wizards because they're
afraid of one Albus Dumbledore, they arrest people to show that they
are working, they ally themselves with creatures of Darkness as
Dementors....Agreed, MoM and Order have the same enemy. But MoM is not
something that you can call...good.

So, i don't believe it'll be told to us that Lily worked in that place.
We are made to believe that being an Auror is still a cool thing. And
its certainly possible that both Lily and James became aurors. (Were
they Aurors or not? I remember that Frank and Alice Longbottom were
Aurors. What about Lily and James?)
Re: Lily's profession [message #200123 ] Mo, 09 Januar 2006 22:39
tbarry22  
They were both aurors.
Re: Lily's profession [message #200127 ] Mo, 09 Januar 2006 23:11
wadkin2000  
tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> They were both aurors.



I just went thru the lexicon and couldn't find anything about James &
Lily being aurors. I know they were in the OOTP, but couldn't find
anything related to being aurors. Am I thoroughly missing something?
Re: Lily's profession [message #200133 ] Mo, 09 Januar 2006 23:40
Notifier Deamon  
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
Re: Lily's profession [message #200175 ] Di, 10 Januar 2006 03:00
drusilla  
"IMS" <iscott [at] twcny.rr.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:hip5s1ptb61pu72pkd61bbru5jtpo8kbf2 [at] 4ax.com...
On 9 Jan 2006 13:39:15 -0800, tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>They were both aurors.

Where does it say that? They were both members of the Order, but I have
not come across anything that states they were both aurors. Source,
please!


Doubt they were. Lily was about 20 when she died and she was nine months
pregnant. The A training is three years, I doubt, if she started it, that
she finished it.
Re: Lily's profession [message #200230 ] Di, 10 Januar 2006 09:38
Toon  
On 9 Jan 2006 14:11:06 -0800, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>
>tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> They were both aurors.
>
>
>
>I just went thru the lexicon and couldn't find anything about James &
>Lily being aurors. I know they were in the OOTP, but couldn't find
>anything related to being aurors. Am I thoroughly missing something?

Yes. If Frank and Alice were Aurors,a d they were a potential target
of V, who thrice defied him, an the Potters were thrice defy8ng
targets, they must also be aurors. A simple Truth Table will show
this is fundamentally wrong.

James was rich from an inheritance, and they didn't need normal jobs
like everyone else.
Re: Lily's profession [message #200298 ] Di, 10 Januar 2006 16:44
Magic_mom  
drusilla wrote:
>
> Doubt they were. Lily was about 20 when she died and she was nine months
> pregnant. The A training is three years, I doubt, if she started it, that
> she finished it.

HUH? Where has it ever said how old Lily was or that she was pregnant
when she was killed???

M_m
Re: Lily's profession [message #200340 ] Di, 10 Januar 2006 22:55
Alex Clark  
Magic_mom wrote:
> drusilla wrote:
> >
> > Doubt they were. Lily was about 20 when she died and she was nine months
> > pregnant. The A training is three years, I doubt, if she started it, that
> > she finished it.
>
> HUH? Where has it ever said how old Lily was or that she was pregnant
> when she was killed???

The latter point seems to be a conjugation mistake. It would be
approximately correct in the past perfect (AKA pluperfect): "Lily had
been pregnant for nine months." Though AFAIK it could actually have
been eight, or nine and a half.

--
Alex Clark

Omit mad lord lover (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)
Re: Lily's profession [message #200537 ] Do, 12 Januar 2006 03:18
dicconf  
In article <1136930109.070059.191590 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Alex Clark <alexbclark [at] pennswoods.net> wrote:
>Magic_mom wrote:
>> drusilla wrote:
>> >
>> > Doubt they were. Lily was about 20 when she died and she was nine months
>> > pregnant. The A training is three years, I doubt, if she started it, that
>> > she finished it.
>>
>> HUH? Where has it ever said how old Lily was or that she was pregnant
>> when she was killed???
>
>The latter point seems to be a conjugation mistake. It would be
>approximately correct in the past perfect (AKA pluperfect): "Lily had
>been pregnant for nine months." Though AFAIK it could actually have
>been eight, or nine and a half.

I think Lily was in the same year as Snape, James, and the rest, and that
would make her closer to 23 when she died, wouldn't it?

=Tamar
Re: Lily's profession [message #200538 ] Do, 12 Januar 2006 03:29
drusilla  
"Richard Eney" <dicconf [at] radix.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:11sbf403k5d0nd9 [at] corp.supernews.com...
> In article <1136930109.070059.191590 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Alex Clark <alexbclark [at] pennswoods.net> wrote:
>>Magic_mom wrote:
>>> drusilla wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Doubt they were. Lily was about 20 when she died and she was nine
>>> > months
>>> > pregnant. The A training is three years, I doubt, if she started it,
>>> > that
>>> > she finished it.
>>>
>>> HUH? Where has it ever said how old Lily was or that she was pregnant
>>> when she was killed???
>>
>>The latter point seems to be a conjugation mistake. It would be
>>approximately correct in the past perfect (AKA pluperfect): "Lily had
>>been pregnant for nine months." Though AFAIK it could actually have
>>been eight, or nine and a half.
>
> I think Lily was in the same year as Snape, James, and the rest, and that
> would make her closer to 23 when she died, wouldn't it?
>

Ok, I'll have to correct myself too: Snape was 36 when Harry was still 14
(if we count Jo's statement of his age 35-36 so, as his birthday is January
9th, he was 36) so, he was 22 when Harry was born and 23 when the Potters
die. Also, she said Sirius was 22 when he was sent to Azkaban, so he was 22
when Harry was 1 year old and 22 when he was born, the same than Lily.

I know there was a very accurate timeline of the marauders' ages but I can't
remember now...
Re: Lily's profession [message #200572 ] Do, 12 Januar 2006 14:26
cwlNOSPAM  
In article <dq4eu8$i48$1 [at] domitilla.aioe.org>, "drusilla"
<drusilla1860 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

>"Richard Eney" <dicconf [at] radix.net> escribió en el mensaje
>news:11sbf403k5d0nd9 [at] corp.supernews.com...
>> In article <1136930109.070059.191590 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> Alex Clark <alexbclark [at] pennswoods.net> wrote:
>>>Magic_mom wrote:
>>>> drusilla wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Doubt they were. Lily was about 20 when she died and she was nine
>>>> > months
>>>> > pregnant. The A training is three years, I doubt, if she started it,
>>>> > that
>>>> > she finished it.
>>>>
>>>> HUH? Where has it ever said how old Lily was or that she was pregnant
>>>> when she was killed???
>>>
>>>The latter point seems to be a conjugation mistake. It would be
>>>approximately correct in the past perfect (AKA pluperfect): "Lily had
>>>been pregnant for nine months." Though AFAIK it could actually have
>>>been eight, or nine and a half.
>>
>> I think Lily was in the same year as Snape, James, and the rest, and that
>> would make her closer to 23 when she died, wouldn't it?
>>
>
>Ok, I'll have to correct myself too: Snape was 36 when Harry was still 14
>(if we count Jo's statement of his age 35-36 so, as his birthday is January
>9th, he was 36) so, he was 22 when Harry was born and 23 when the Potters
>die. Also, she said Sirius was 22 when he was sent to Azkaban, so he was 22
>when Harry was 1 year old and 22 when he was born, the same than Lily.
>
>I know there was a very accurate timeline of the marauders' ages but I can't
>remember now...

Wikipedia (I know, I know!) says Lily, James, Sirius, Remus, Severus and
Wormtail were all born ca. 1960. That would make Lily closer to 21 when
she died on October 31, 1981.
--
Chris
Re: Lily's profession [message #200585 ] Do, 12 Januar 2006 17:43
drusilla  
"Green-Eyed Chris" <cwlNOSPAM [at] freenet.de> escribió en el mensaje
news:cwlNOSPAM-1201061426060001 [at] ae9bd.a.pppool.de...
> In article <dq4eu8$i48$1 [at] domitilla.aioe.org>, "drusilla"
> <drusilla1860 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>"Richard Eney" <dicconf [at] radix.net> escribió en el mensaje
>>news:11sbf403k5d0nd9 [at] corp.supernews.com...
>>> In article <1136930109.070059.191590 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Alex Clark <alexbclark [at] pennswoods.net> wrote:
>>>>Magic_mom wrote:
>>>>> drusilla wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Doubt they were. Lily was about 20 when she died and she was nine
>>>>> > months
>>>>> > pregnant. The A training is three years, I doubt, if she started it,
>>>>> > that
>>>>> > she finished it.
>>>>>
>>>>> HUH? Where has it ever said how old Lily was or that she was pregnant
>>>>> when she was killed???
>>>>
>>>>The latter point seems to be a conjugation mistake. It would be
>>>>approximately correct in the past perfect (AKA pluperfect): "Lily had
>>>>been pregnant for nine months." Though AFAIK it could actually have
>>>>been eight, or nine and a half.
>>>
>>> I think Lily was in the same year as Snape, James, and the rest, and
>>> that
>>> would make her closer to 23 when she died, wouldn't it?
>>>
>>
>>Ok, I'll have to correct myself too: Snape was 36 when Harry was still 14
>>(if we count Jo's statement of his age 35-36 so, as his birthday is
>>January
>>9th, he was 36) so, he was 22 when Harry was born and 23 when the Potters
>>die. Also, she said Sirius was 22 when he was sent to Azkaban, so he was
>>22
>>when Harry was 1 year old and 22 when he was born, the same than Lily.
>>
>>I know there was a very accurate timeline of the marauders' ages but I
>>can't
>>remember now...
>
> Wikipedia (I know, I know!) says Lily, James, Sirius, Remus, Severus and
> Wormtail were all born ca. 1960. That would make Lily closer to 21 when
> she died on October 31, 1981.
> --
> Chris

Yes, but even before start my Internet search about them, just when I
finished book 4 (and before hearing about Jo's interview about Snape's
age), I was sure the Potters were like 21 when they died, just reading the
books.
Re: Lily's profession [message #200587 ] Do, 12 Januar 2006 18:05
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:dq4eu8$i48$1 [at] domitilla.aioe.org>
"drusilla" <drusilla1860 [at] yahoo.com> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> I know there was a very accurate timeline of the marauders' ages
> but I can't remember now...

Let me point out that any timeline that makes any claim to be
accurate, is going to be relative and to allow for great
uncertainties -- i.e. basically not be accurate at all. Any claim of
accuracy with respect to actual dating is bogus.

That said, we can come up with some shrewd estimates, though I think
we must accept that there is no correct solution -- I honestly don't
think that Rowling (when we are speaking of the fifty years history
prior to PS) generally has a better idea about the relation of events
A and B than e.g. 'about the same time', 'A a little before B' or 'A
long before B' (or vice versa for the last two). The whole rigmarole
about Charlie's age relative to Percy's is a good example -- when JKR
has tried to explain and be specific, she has just made things worse,
making statements that require a very articificial and strained
reading of PS and PoA in particular.

A few events can be dated more exactly based on some assumptions. For
instance you need to make assumptions regarding the fifty years
period between Harry's and Tom's school years -- how do they match
exactly (I know I am prejudiced in this, but I think that the fifty
years in CoS in normally accepted as exact). Even from there,
however, everything but the capture of Hagrid (for which we have a
date) involves a degree of uncertainty.

With respect to the Marauders, their term at Hogwarts has (at least)
a one-year uncertainty depending on how you interpret Rowling's
statement regarding Snape's age. We haven't been told, actually, that
Lily and the Marauders were in the same year (though it seems a
reasonable assumption), and we don't really know when they did what
after leaving (and before attending) Hogwarts.

All in all I wish we could limit ourselves to discuss the relation
between events at a qualitative level -- lets just focus on whether
they were about the same time or widely spread, and if we can tell
which was before the other (knowing myself, that wish is going to be
extremely difficult to fulfill, because I am naturally seeking to
quantify things).

An example of relevant events might be:

Remus Lupin is born
Remus Lupin is bit by Fenrir Greyback
Albus Dumbledore becomes Headmaster at Hogwarts
{
The Marauders start at Hogwarts
Voldemort applies for the DADA position
The first war breaks out
}

The two latter must be 'about the same time', and I don't think we
have any knowledge that will allow us to tell which was first -- we
do not, for instance, know if the Marauders (and Snape) had the same
DADA teacher for more than a year at any point.

There is Dumbledore's comment at the beginning of PS, which puts the
first war to have lasted some eleven years -- but we don't know the
relation of the beginning (according to Dumbledore's definition) and
Voldemort's application. One might guess that the visit preceded the
outbreak of the first war (Voldemort's followers freely staying at
the inn), and it might also be a good guess that it wasn't long
between these two events, but that only makes our problem worse, as
the war broke out just about the time when the Marauders started at
Hogwarts.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

The errors hardest
to condone
in other people
are one's own.
- Piet Hein, /Our Own Motes/
Re: Lily's profession [message #200607 ] Do, 12 Januar 2006 19:33
Blon Fel Fotch Passam  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> We haven't been told, actually, that Lily and the Marauders were in
> the same year (though it seems a reasonable assumption),

Yes, we have - Lily was in the same year as James, since they were Head Girl
& Head Boy together (book 1 chapter 4); James was in the same year as Sirius,
Remus, Peter, Stebbins Snr & Severus, since Harry saw them in the Great Hall
taking their OWL exams (book 5 chapter 28); and Severus was in the same year
as Rosier, Wilkes, Bellatrix, Rodolphus & Avery since they were members of a
7th year Slytherin gang who mostly became Death Eaters (book 4 chapter 27).


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Re: Lily's profession [message #200638 ] Fr, 13 Januar 2006 01:50
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:bffpds.57896956185060 [at] raxacoricofallapatoria> Blon
Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen <bffpds [at] raxacoricofallapatoria>
enriched us with:

> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>
>> We haven't been told, actually, that Lily and the Marauders were
>> in the same year (though it seems a reasonable assumption),
>
> Yes, we have - Lily was in the same year as James, since they were
> Head Girl & Head Boy together (book 1 chapter 4);

'Now, yer mum an' dad were as good a witch an' wizard as
I ever knew. Head boy an' girl at Hogwarts in their day!
[Hagrid, PS-4 'The Keeper of the Keys']

While I agree that your interpretation is probably the most natural
one -- I am actually convinced that you are right, the statement
doesn't in itself preclude that they were actually head boy and head
girl at different times -- each at 'their day'. Therefore my more
cautious statement.

> James was in the same year as Sirius, Remus, Peter, Stebbins Snr
> & Severus, since Harry saw them in the Great Hall taking their OWL
> exams (book 5 chapter 28);

Correct.

I wouldn't take the fact that Harry didn't notice Lily in the Great
Hall as implying that she wasn't there, but it is unfortunate that it
fails to provide us with the irrefutable evidence we'd like that Lily
and James were in the same year.

> and Severus was in the same year as Rosier, Wilkes, Bellatrix,
> Rodolphus & Avery since they were members of a 7th year Slytherin
> gang who mostly became Death Eaters (book 4 chapter 27).

Wrong. There is no implication of year for the gang. What Sirius
actually said was:

'Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than
half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang
of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death
Eaters.'
[Sirius, GoF-27 'Padfoot Returns']

You have two logically independant arguments, both of which Sirius
propound in order to convince Harry et Al. that Severus was a bad
guy. That Severus knew more curses 'than half kids in seventh year'
already when he arrived (possibly referring to the seventh year
students when Snape and the Marauders were first year and possibly to
more generic seventh year students). In addition to that, Snape was a
member of a gang of Slytherins counting the members you list, but
there is no indication that all these Slytherins were in the same
year -- Harry has been a member of a gang of Gryffindors who all
played at the Gryffindor Quidditch side since his first year, but
until OotP he has been the only member from his own year.

Since Bellatrix, as the oldest of Sirius' cousins, needs to be older
than both Narcissa and Andromeda (Tonk's mom), it is highly unlikely
that she should be as young as Severus (that is -- it's highly likely
that Rowling has mixed up the time-line again in this question, but
that's for another day <G>).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

We're leaving WISDOM
to starve and thirst
when we cultivate
KNOWLEDGE as such.
The very best comes
to the very worst
WHEN IGNORANTS
KNOW TOO MUCH.
- Piet Hein, /When Ignorants --/
Re: Lily's profession [message #200663 ] Fr, 13 Januar 2006 09:18
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:Xns974A12B56E7D7T.Forch [at] 130.133.1.4> Troels
Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>
> In message <news:bffpds.57896956185060 [at] raxacoricofallapatoria>
> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
> <bffpds [at] raxacoricofallapatoria> enriched us with:
>>

<snip>

>> Yes, we have - Lily was in the same year as James, since they
>> were Head Girl & Head Boy together (book 1 chapter 4);

<snip quotation>

> While I agree that your interpretation is probably the most
> natural one -- I am actually convinced that you are right, the
> statement doesn't in itself preclude that they were actually head
> boy and head girl at different times -- each at 'their day'.
> Therefore my more cautious statement.

I recalled another statement that might shed a little more light
(though not much):

'How come she married him?' Harry asked miserably. 'She
hated him!'
'Nah, she didn't,' said Sirius.
'She started going out with him in seventh year,' said
Lupin.
'Once James had deflated his head a bit,' said Sirius.
[OotP-29 'Careers Advice']

For some reason, when I remembered it, I remembered it as having a
pronoun in there -- either 'his seventh year', 'their seventh year'
or 'our seventh year', each of which could have helped a little.

As it turns out, the pronoun wasn't there. My immediate feeling is
that 'our seventh year' is probably the most likely, since Lupin is
speaking about James, to James' son and in the company of Sirius. It
does give the same impression of simultaneity, but I still don't
think it can be ruled out that Lily was e.g. a year after the
Marauders: as far as I can recall, there is nothing to preclude that
reading.

--
______ | Troels Forchhammer
___/L_][_/(__ | Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
(___{__{__{___7 |
`(_)------(_)-' | My other .sig is a Rolls ...
Re: Lily's profession [message #202925 ] Fr, 13 Januar 2006 19:36
Blon Fel Fotch Passam  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

>> Troels Forchhammer wrote:

>>> We haven't been told, actually, that Lily and the Marauders were
>>> in the same year (though it seems a reasonable assumption),

>> Yes, we have - Lily was in the same year as James, since they were
>> Head Girl & Head Boy together (book 1 chapter 4);

> 'Now, yer mum an' dad were as good a witch an' wizard as
> I ever knew. Head boy an' girl at Hogwarts in their day!
> [Hagrid, PS-4 'The Keeper of the Keys']

> While I agree that your interpretation is probably the most natural
> one -- I am actually convinced that you are right, the statement
> doesn't in itself preclude that they were actually head boy and head
> girl at different times -- each at 'their day'. Therefore my more
> cautious statement.

Yes indeed, I think we're in agreement here; though I'd bet money that
Rowling intended this statement to mean they were Head Boy & Girl in
the same year, if she wanted to trick us she could do.

But see below.


>> James was in the same year as Sirius, Remus, Peter, Stebbins Snr
>> & Severus, since Harry saw them in the Great Hall taking their OWL
>> exams (book 5 chapter 28);

> Correct.

> I wouldn't take the fact that Harry didn't notice Lily in the Great
> Hall as implying that she wasn't there, but it is unfortunate that it
> fails to provide us with the irrefutable evidence we'd like that Lily
> and James were in the same year.

Ah, but Lily ~was~ there...

"The sunlight was dazzling on the smooth surface of the lake, on
the bank of which the group of laughing girls who had just left
the Great Hall were sitting, with their shoes and socks off,
cooling their feet in the water."

"Harry noticed that his father had a habit of rumpling up his hair
as though to keep it from getting too tidy, and he also kept looking
over at the girls by the water's edge."

"It was one of the girls from the lake edge. She had thick, dark red
hair that fell to her shoulders, and startlingly green almond-shaped
eyes - Harry's eyes. Harry's mother."


>> and Severus was in the same year as Rosier, Wilkes, Bellatrix,
>> Rodolphus & Avery since they were members of a 7th year Slytherin
>> gang who mostly became Death Eaters (book 4 chapter 27).

> Wrong. There is no implication of year for the gang. What Sirius
> actually said was:

> 'Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than
> half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang
> of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death
> Eaters.'
> [Sirius, GoF-27 'Padfoot Returns']

> You have two logically independant arguments, both of which Sirius
> propound in order to convince Harry et Al. that Severus was a bad
> guy. That Severus knew more curses 'than half kids in seventh year'
> already when he arrived (possibly referring to the seventh year
> students when Snape and the Marauders were first year and possibly to
> more generic seventh year students). In addition to that, Snape was a
> member of a gang of Slytherins counting the members you list, but
> there is no indication that all these Slytherins were in the same
> year -- Harry has been a member of a gang of Gryffindors who all
> played at the Gryffindor Quidditch side since his first year, but
> until OotP he has been the only member from his own year.

> Since Bellatrix, as the oldest of Sirius' cousins, needs to be older
> than both Narcissa and Andromeda (Tonk's mom), it is highly unlikely
> that she should be as young as Severus (that is -- it's highly likely
> that Rowling has mixed up the time-line again in this question, but
> that's for another day <G>).

Fair enough, except I disagree that Bellatrix was the oldest; that
was Andromeda, disinherited for being a blood traitor. Family trees
(written as children are born) work outwards from the centre.

By my reckoning, Bellatrix is the same age as Severus, Narcissa is
a few years younger, and Andromeda was older (her daughter is nine
years younger than Severus).


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Re: Lily's profession [message #202926 ] Fr, 13 Januar 2006 19:37
Blon Fel Fotch Passam  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> Troels Forchhammer wrote:

>> While I agree that your interpretation is probably the most
>> natural one -- I am actually convinced that you are right, the
>> statement doesn't in itself preclude that they were actually head
>> boy and head girl at different times -- each at 'their day'.
>> Therefore my more cautious statement.

> I recalled another statement that might shed a little more light
> (though not much):

> 'How come she married him?' Harry asked miserably. 'She
> hated him!'
> 'Nah, she didn't,' said Sirius.
> 'She started going out with him in seventh year,' said
> Lupin.
> 'Once James had deflated his head a bit,' said Sirius.
> [OotP-29 'Careers Advice']

> For some reason, when I remembered it, I remembered it as having a
> pronoun in there -- either 'his seventh year', 'their seventh year'
> or 'our seventh year', each of which could have helped a little.

> As it turns out, the pronoun wasn't there. My immediate feeling is
> that 'our seventh year' is probably the most likely, since Lupin is
> speaking about James, to James' son and in the company of Sirius. It
> does give the same impression of simultaneity, but I still don't
> think it can be ruled out that Lily was e.g. a year after the
> Marauders: as far as I can recall, there is nothing to preclude that
> reading.

Don't worry about it, my dear Troels - see my other post which shows
that Lily took her OWLs at the same time as James.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Re: Lily's profession [message #202937 ] Fr, 13 Januar 2006 23:20
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:bffpds.57896956185070 [at] raxacoricofallapatoria> Blon
Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen <bffpds [at] raxacoricofallapatoria>
enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
>>>
>>> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>>>

<snip>

> Yes indeed, I think we're in agreement here; though I'd bet money
> that Rowling intended this statement to mean they were Head Boy &
> Girl in the same year, if she wanted to trick us she could do.

I'm sure you're right.

<snip>

>> I wouldn't take the fact that Harry didn't notice Lily in the
>> Great Hall as implying that she wasn't there, but it is
>> unfortunate that it fails to provide us with the irrefutable
>> evidence we'd like that Lily and James were in the same year.
>
> Ah, but Lily ~was~ there...

At school, yes of course. There is nothing to prevent a fourth year
student from hanging around about the lake as the fifth-year students
come out from their OWL exams. That co-incident does not, I'm afraid,
prove anything.

If you really want, the fact that Snape recognises her is probably by
far the most indicative evidence -- what is the probability that
'Snivellus' would recognise (naming her and knowing her as a Muggle-
born) a Gryffindor student with whom he did not share classes? Next
to zero, I'd say.

<snip>

> Fair enough, except I disagree that Bellatrix was the oldest; that
> was Andromeda, disinherited for being a blood traitor. Family
> trees (written as children are born) work outwards from the
> centre.

I have several, unfortunately contradictory <G>, comments to make to
that.

First of all, /against/ you assertion, Dumbledore explicitly says in
HPB-3 'Will and Won't', '[...] then the ownership of the house is
most likely to pass to the eldest of Sirius's living relatives, which
would mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange.' This is a default
inheritance precisely as when Sirius inherited house and elf! If
blood-traitors could be disinherited, then Sirius would never have
inherited the place at all.

So, you are contradicting Dumbledore with an argument that doesn't
work.

> By my reckoning, Bellatrix is the same age as Severus, Narcissa is
> a few years younger, and Andromeda was older (her daughter is nine
> years younger than Severus).

That might indeed be the case, if we allow Rowling to simply mess it
up.

Rowling has probably messed up the ages of the sisters somewhere --
though it is possible that Andromeda could have a child thirteen or
fourteen[1] years younger than Snape, and yet be herself at most six
years older than Snape (Bellatrix in seventh while Snape in first and
then Andromeda as the younger twin), it is hardly likely, so
somewhere there is something gone wrong.

Rowling obviously needs Bellatrix to be Sirius' default heir (Sirius
would probably much rather have Andromeda inherit him had he not
thought of Harry), and for that Bellatrix needs to be the oldest, as
Sirius, as the deceased owner, obviously would not have disinherited
Andromeda.

I assume that the only way to resolve things is to loosen one of the
facts -- either Bellatrix wasn't a member of that Slytherin gang at
the same time as Snape, or Andromeda can, for some reason, not
inherit or Dumbledore made some kind of mistake with his statement,
but I don't think that we can make such bold assumptions about the
nature of this as to claim that Bellatrix and Snape were in the same
year (without further statements from Rowling) -- the situation is
simply too unclear to begin to pick a random idea that is
inconsistent with some known facts, and not supported by any.


[1] At the beginning of OotP Tonks is four years out of Hogwarts
(three years Auror training passed a year ago), making her 22
years old. Snape is still the '35 or 36' Rowling stated at the
end of GoF

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
- Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
Re: Lily's profession [message #202963 ] Sa, 14 Januar 2006 05:17
richard e white  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> In message <news:bffpds.57896956185070 [at] raxacoricofallapatoria> Blon
> Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen <bffpds [at] raxacoricofallapatoria>
> enriched us with:
> >
> > Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> >>
> >> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> >>>>
>
> <snip>
>
> > Yes indeed, I think we're in agreement here; though I'd bet money
> > that Rowling intended this statement to mean they were Head Boy &
> > Girl in the same year, if she wanted to trick us she could do.
>
> I'm sure you're right.
>
> <snip>
>
> >> I wouldn't take the fact that Harry didn't notice Lily in the
> >> Great Hall as implying that she wasn't there, but it is
> >> unfortunate that it fails to provide us with the irrefutable
> >> evidence we'd like that Lily and James were in the same year.
> >
> > Ah, but Lily ~was~ there...
>
> At school, yes of course. There is nothing to prevent a fourth year
> student from hanging around about the lake as the fifth-year students
> come out from their OWL exams. That co-incident does not, I'm afraid,
> prove anything.
>
> If you really want, the fact that Snape recognises her is probably by
> far the most indicative evidence -- what is the probability that
> 'Snivellus' would recognise (naming her and knowing her as a Muggle-
> born) a Gryffindor student with whom he did not share classes? Next
> to zero, I'd say.
>
> <snip>
>
> > Fair enough, except I disagree that Bellatrix was the oldest; that
> > was Andromeda, disinherited for being a blood traitor. Family
> > trees (written as children are born) work outwards from the
> > centre.
>
> I have several, unfortunately contradictory <G>, comments to make to
> that.
>
> First of all, /against/ you assertion, Dumbledore explicitly says in
> HPB-3 'Will and Won't', '[...] then the ownership of the house is
> most likely to pass to the eldest of Sirius's living relatives, which
> would mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange.' This is a default
> inheritance precisely as when Sirius inherited house and elf! If
> blood-traitors could be disinherited, then Sirius would never have
> inherited the place at all.
>
> So, you are contradicting Dumbledore with an argument that doesn't
> work.
>
> > By my reckoning, Bellatrix is the same age as Severus, Narcissa is
> > a few years younger, and Andromeda was older (her daughter is nine
> > years younger than Severus).
>
> That might indeed be the case, if we allow Rowling to simply mess it
> up.
>
> Rowling has probably messed up the ages of the sisters somewhere --
> though it is possible that Andromeda could have a child thirteen or
> fourteen[1] years younger than Snape, and yet be herself at most six
> years older than Snape (Bellatrix in seventh while Snape in first and
> then Andromeda as the younger twin), it is hardly likely, so
> somewhere there is something gone wrong.
>
> Rowling obviously needs Bellatrix to be Sirius' default heir (Sirius
> would probably much rather have Andromeda inherit him had he not
> thought of Harry), and for that Bellatrix needs to be the oldest, as
> Sirius, as the deceased owner, obviously would not have disinherited
> Andromeda.
>
> I assume that the only way to resolve things is to loosen one of the
> facts -- either Bellatrix wasn't a member of that Slytherin gang at
> the same time as Snape, or Andromeda can, for some reason, not
> inherit or Dumbledore made some kind of mistake with his statement,
> but I don't think that we can make such bold assumptions about the
> nature of this as to claim that Bellatrix and Snape were in the same
> year (without further statements from Rowling) -- the situation is
> simply too unclear to begin to pick a random idea that is
> inconsistent with some known facts, and not supported by any.
>
> [1] At the beginning of OotP Tonks is four years out of Hogwarts
> (three years Auror training passed a year ago), making her 22
> years old. Snape is still the '35 or 36' Rowling stated at the
> end of GoF
>
> --
> Troels Forchhammer
> Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
>
> This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
> - Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
> (Thus speaks the quantum physicist)

I thought the tapestry in the black house had a burn mark between
Bellatrix and
Narcissa. I also thought black said that the burn mark was where Tonk's
mother stood.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: Lily's profession [message #202995 ] Sa, 14 Januar 2006 13:58
Blon Fel Fotch Passam  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

>> Yes indeed, I think we're in agreement here; though I'd bet money
>> that Rowling intended this statement to mean they were Head Boy &
>> Girl in the same year, if she wanted to trick us she could do.

> I'm sure you're right.

Thanks.


>>> I wouldn't take the fact that Harry didn't notice Lily in the
>>> Great Hall as implying that she wasn't there, but it is
>>> unfortunate that it fails to provide us with the irrefutable
>>> evidence we'd like that Lily and James were in the same year.

>> Ah, but Lily ~was~ there...

> At school, yes of course. There is nothing to prevent a fourth year
> student from hanging around about the lake as the fifth-year students
> come out from their OWL exams. That co-incident does not, I'm afraid,
> prove anything.

No, Lily is clearly described as one of the group of girls who had just
left the Great Hall. The grammar & syntax used by Rowling requires it.


> If you really want, the fact that Snape recognises her is probably by
> far the most indicative evidence -- what is the probability that
> 'Snivellus' would recognise (naming her and knowing her as a Muggle-
> born) a Gryffindor student with whom he did not share classes? Next
> to zero, I'd say.

Of course, the issue is not worth worrying about.


> <snip>

>> Fair enough, except I disagree that Bellatrix was the oldest; that
>> was Andromeda, disinherited for being a blood traitor. Family
>> trees (written as children are born) work outwards from the
>> centre.

> I have several, unfortunately contradictory <G>, comments to make to
> that.

That's okay; practically anything we try to determine is liable to be
rent asunder by Rowling's woeful abilities in simple arithmetic.


> First of all, /against/ you assertion, Dumbledore explicitly says in
> HPB-3 'Will and Won't', '[...] then the ownership of the house is most
> likely to pass to the eldest of Sirius's living relatives, which would
> mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange.' This is a default inheritance
> precisely as when Sirius inherited house and elf! If blood-traitors
> could be disinherited, then Sirius would never have inherited the place
> at all. So, you are contradicting Dumbledore with an argument that
> doesn't work.

Andromeda is probably dead, so not one of Sirius's ~living~ relatives.

In book 5 chapter 6, Sirius says that Andromeda WAS his favourite cousin;
the use of the past tense indicates that she's dead, but if Rowling again
wanted to trick us then maybe they fell out - but I doubt that is so.

And to repeat - when you update a family tree with newborns, you put the
first child underneath its parents, and later additions go either side.


>> By my reckoning, Bellatrix is the same age as Severus, Narcissa is
>> a few years younger, and Andromeda was older (her daughter is nine
>> years younger than Severus).

> That might indeed be the case, if we allow Rowling to simply mess it up.
> Rowling has probably messed up the ages of the sisters somewhere --
> though it is possible that Andromeda could have a child thirteen or
> fourteen[1] years younger than Snape, and yet be herself at most six
> years older than Snape (Bellatrix in seventh while Snape in first and
> then Andromeda as the younger twin), it is hardly likely, so somewhere
> there is something gone wrong.

It all works out if Andromeda is dead.


<snip>

> [1] At the beginning of OotP Tonks is four years out of Hogwarts
> (three years Auror training passed a year ago), making her 22
> years old. Snape is still the '35 or 36' Rowling stated at the
> end of GoF

You can't pin down Nymphadora's age from her Auror training, for that
results in a MINIMUM age plus a great degree of uncertainty; she could
easily be a few years older. When I was at uni, some of my classmates
were much older than me, having taken a gap year or two, or changed
career path (one was a medical student who couldn't handle cadavers),
or they'd had to repeat a year, which seems very likely for Tonks.

Anyway, we have a far better clue in book 6 chapter 5 when Ron (who's
spent a lot of time with her) remarked that Sirius was in Azkaban half
of Tonks' life. Sirius escaped at the start of book 3, after 12 years
in prison; so she was then 24, and nine years younger than Remus.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Re: Lily's profession [message #203003 ] Sa, 14 Januar 2006 14:01
Toon  
On 13 Jan 2006 22:20:25 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
<Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

>At school, yes of course. There is nothing to prevent a fourth year
>student from hanging around about the lake as the fifth-year students
>come out from their OWL exams. That co-incident does not, I'm afraid,
>prove anything.

Ginny and the Trio. Lily could be waiting outside the great hall,
then joined the pack. But everything always seemed to imply the same
year, like the marauders were always implied as the same house,
regardless of not literally saying so, word for word.
Re: Lily's profession [message #203042 ] Sa, 14 Januar 2006 20:34
drusilla  
"Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen" <bffpds [at] raxacoricofallapatoria>
escribió en el mensaje news:bffpds.57896956185075 [at] raxacoricofallapatoria...

>
> It all works out if Andromeda is dead.

I think Tonks talks about her mother in present time.

"It's not very neat," said Tonks, walking over to the trunk and looking down
at the jumble inside. "My mums got this knack of getting stuff to fit itself
in neatly - she even **gets** the socks to fold themselves - but I've never
mastered how she **does** it - it's a kind of flick -" She flicked her wand
hopefully.
Re: Lily's profession [message #203051 ] Sa, 14 Januar 2006 23:33
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:43C87B74.CF143019 [at] cox.net>
richard e white <chiphead [at] cox.net> enriched us with:
>
> I thought the tapestry in the black house had a burn mark between
> Bellatrix and Narcissa. I also thought black said that the burn
> mark was where Tonk's mother stood.

You're right.

'Oh, yeah, her mother Andromeda was my favourite cousin,'
said Sirius, examining the tapestry closely. 'No, Andromeda's
not on here either, look -'
He pointed to another small round burn mark between two
names, Bellatrix and Narcissa.
[Sirius, OotP-6 'The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black']

Not that it changes things very much -- the inconsistency is still
present, though it does make it clear that JKR intended already from
OotP that Bellatrix be the oldest of the three.

Narcissa married Lucius who is already a few years older than his
lapdog -- if we have to add the full difference between Bella and
Narcissa, then Narcissa is quite a lot younger than her husband.

For all that it might be easier to assume that Bellatrix is about
Lucius' age and introduced Lucius and Narcissa, but that won't remove
the inconsistency between Bellatrix' and Tonks' ages, so it doesn't
help, and there is still the problem that the evidence is
contradictory, and making specific suggestions is just making it
worse.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the
same level of thinking with which we created them.
- Albert Einstein
Re: Lily's profession [message #203053 ] Sa, 14 Januar 2006 23:42
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:bffpds.57896956185075 [at] raxacoricofallapatoria> Blon
Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen <bffpds [at] raxacoricofallapatoria>
enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> No, Lily is clearly described as one of the group of girls who had
> just left the Great Hall.

You're right -- I overlooked that passage, sorry.

Well, that does settle that issue, doesn't it -- Lily and James were
definitely in the same year ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Taking fun
as simply fun
and earnestness
in earnest
shows how thouroughly
thou none
of the two
discernest.
- Piet Hein, /The Eternal Twins/
Re: Lily's profession [message #203095 ] So, 15 Januar 2006 13:26
Blon Fel Fotch Passam  
Drusilla wrote:

> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

>> In book 5 chapter 6, Sirius says that Andromeda WAS his favourite
>> cousin; <snip> it all works out if Andromeda is dead.

> I think Tonks talks about her mother in present time.

> "It's not very neat," said Tonks, walking over to the trunk and looking
> down at the jumble inside. "My mums got this knack of getting stuff to
> fit itself in neatly - she even **gets** the socks to fold themselves -
> but I've never mastered how she **does** it - it's a kind of flick -"
> She flicked her wand hopefully.

Awww - poor Tonks.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Re: Lily's profession [message #203096 ] So, 15 Januar 2006 13:28
Blon Fel Fotch Passam  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> Richard E. White wrote:

>> I thought the tapestry in the black house had a burn mark between
>> Bellatrix and Narcissa. I also thought black said that the burn
>> mark was where Tonk's mother stood.

> You're right.

> 'Oh, yeah, her mother Andromeda was my favourite cousin,'
> said Sirius, examining the tapestry closely. 'No, Andromeda's
> not on here either, look -'
> He pointed to another small round burn mark between two
> names, Bellatrix and Narcissa.
> [Sirius, OotP-6 'The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black']

> Not that it changes things very much -- the inconsistency is still
> present, though it does make it clear that JKR intended already from
> OotP that Bellatrix be the oldest of the three.

I don't know how you can say that was her intention, especially since
Andromeda's position in the middle means that she's the oldest.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Re: Lily's profession [message #203097 ] So, 15 Januar 2006 13:29
Blon Fel Fotch Passam  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

>> No, Lily is clearly described as one of the group of girls who had
>> just left the Great Hall.

> You're right -- I overlooked that passage, sorry.

Phew, you had me worried there! ^_^


> Well, that does settle that issue, doesn't it -- Lily and James were
> definitely in the same year ;-)

Right.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Re: Lily's profession [message #203114 ] So, 15 Januar 2006 14:18
Toon  
On 14 Jan 2006 22:33:30 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
<Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

>Narcissa married Lucius who is already a few years older than his
>lapdog -- if we have to add the full difference between Bella and
>Narcissa, then Narcissa is quite a lot younger than her husband.

Trophy wife. Hey, you know Lucius would want one. Could be the
second , hot wife.
Re: Lily's profession [message #203115 ] So, 15 Januar 2006 14:20
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:bffpds.57896956185083 [at] raxacoricofallapatoria> Blon
Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen <bffpds [at] raxacoricofallapatoria>
enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>

<snip>

>> Not that it changes things very much -- the inconsistency is
>> still present, though it does make it clear that JKR intended
>> already from OotP that Bellatrix be the oldest of the three.
>>
> I don't know how you can say that was her intention, especially
> since Andromeda's position in the middle means that she's the
> oldest.

Admittedly my experience with British family trees is limited to
those in Tolkien's works (in LotR and elsewhere), but in those the
oldest is /always/ leftmost and the youngest rightmost, so, since
this is consistent with what I have encountered in other contexts, I
naturally assumed that the same is the case here.

Admittedly I might be wrong, but I'm afraid you'd have to come up
with a resource showing that the order you suggest is the 'correct'
order in British family trees (e.g. a reference to a genealogical
society) if you wish to convince me that Tolkien's order isn't the
default ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Knowing what
thou knowest not
is in a sense
omniscience
- Piet Hein, /Omniscience/
Re: Lily's profession [message #203182 ] Mo, 16 Januar 2006 01:29
Blon Fel Fotch Passam  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

>>> Not that it changes things very much -- the inconsistency is
>>> still present, though it does make it clear that JKR intended
>>> already from OotP that Bellatrix be the oldest of the three.

>> I don't know how you can say that was her intention, especially
>> since Andromeda's position in the middle means that she's the
>> oldest.

> Admittedly my experience with British family trees is limited to
> those in Tolkien's works (in LotR and elsewhere), but in those the
> oldest is /always/ leftmost and the youngest rightmost, so, since
> this is consistent with what I have encountered in other contexts,
> I naturally assumed that the same is the case here.

> Admittedly I might be wrong, but I'm afraid you'd have to come up
> with a resource showing that the order you suggest is the 'correct'
> order in British family trees (e.g. a reference to a genealogical
> society) if you wish to convince me that Tolkien's order isn't the
> default ;-)

It's not a question of British versus Danish family trees, but of
family trees updated as new members are born versus family trees
fully created as a fiction or written down as past history.

When you know in advance who all the children are, you write them
down in the logical order, left to right. But when you update an
existing family tree, you don't know how far over to start, (plus
it's tempting fate to assume more than one); so you place the one
and only child underneath the parents. If they should be blessed
with a second child, you update the tree with a name on the left;
and should a third child arrive, you would balance to the right.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Re: Lily's profession [message #205589 ] Mo, 16 Januar 2006 17:15
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:bffpds.57896956185087 [at] raxacoricofallapatoria>
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen <bffpds [at] raxacoricofallapatoria>
enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> It's not a question of British versus Danish family trees, but of
> family trees updated as new members are born versus family trees
> fully created as a fiction or written down as past history.

I think you fail to recognise that to Rowling the tree was 'fiction
written down as past history'. And do you actually think Rowling would
make this distinction -- in particular given her later statements about
Bellatrix being the oldest? I'm afraid that I can't buy into that for a
second -- she would definitely put the oldest at the far left,
regardless of the story-internal circumstances.

Add to that that you are still describing only one particular family
tree tradition, which only works if the family tree is tracing only one
single main line (only siblings to the heir are recorded, not their
children or not their grandchildren) -- with all the side-branches in
the Black tree you need either knowledge of how the tree will become or
magic to fit it as you go along.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

If no thought
your mind does visit,
make your speech
not too explicit.
- Piet Hein, /The Case for Obscurity/
Re: Lily's profession [message #205605 ] Di, 17 Januar 2006 00:06
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:Xns974DAF7C0178CT.Forch [at] 130.133.1.4> Troels
Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

Gah! This is idiotic -- I'm quibbling about details of family trees,
when Rowling is messing up her characters' ages again. Sorry for
continuing it, this will be the last from me on the subject.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Philosophers
must ultimately find
their true perfection

in knowing all
the follies of mankind
- by introspection.
- Piet Hein, /The Ultimate Wisdom/
Re: Lily's profession [message #205615 ] Di, 17 Januar 2006 01:21
Blon Fel Fotch Passam  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

>> It's not a question of British versus Danish family trees, but of
>> family trees updated as new members are born versus family trees
>> fully created as a fiction or written down as past history.

> I think you fail to recognise that to Rowling the tree was 'fiction
> written down as past history'. And do you actually think Rowling would
> make this distinction -- in particular given her later statements about
> Bellatrix being the oldest? I'm afraid that I can't buy into that for a
> second -- she would definitely put the oldest at the far left,
> regardless of the story-internal circumstances.

You can't claim that; the tree as she describes it is entirely consistent
with one being modified when children are born, therefore the positioning
of Andromeda cannot be used as evidence that she was a middle child.



Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Re: Lily's profession [message #205623 ] Di, 17 Januar 2006 02:53
Fish Eye no Miko  
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

> When you know in advance who all the children are, you write
> them down in the logical order, left to right. But when you
> update an existing family tree, you don't know how far over to
> start, (plus it's tempting fate to assume more than one); so you
> place the one and only child underneath the parents. If they
> should be blessed with a second child, you update the tree with
> a name on the left; and should a third child arrive, you would
> balance to the right.

Since we're talking about witches and wizards here, perhaps they can alter
the tree after the fact to make it look any way they want?

Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"At least some oboe player got a paycheck out of all this horse hockey..."
-Mike Nelson, _Mystery Science Theater 3000_.
Re: Lily's profession [message #205636 ] Di, 17 Januar 2006 09:49
Toon  
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:53:12 -0700, "Fish Eye no Miko"
<fisheye [at] deadmoon.circus> wrote:

>Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
>
>> When you know in advance who all the children are, you write
>> them down in the logical order, left to right. But when you
>> update an existing family tree, you don't know how far over to
>> start, (plus it's tempting fate to assume more than one); so you
>> place the one and only child underneath the parents. If they
>> should be blessed with a second child, you update the tree with
>> a name on the left; and should a third child arrive, you would
>> balance to the right.
>
>Since we're talking about witches and wizards here, perhaps they can alter
>the tree after the fact to make it look any way they want?
>
>Catherine Johnson.

If the middle listed child is slightly above the others, older. if
not, it's traditional left to right. That's how it's always been.
left to right.
Re: Lily's profession [message #205645 ] Di, 17 Januar 2006 10:27
richard e white  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> In message <news:43C87B74.CF143019 [at] cox.net>
> richard e white <chiphead [at] cox.net> enriched us with:
> >
> > I thought the tapestry in the black house had a burn mark between
> > Bellatrix and Narcissa. I also thought black said that the burn
> > mark was where Tonk's mother stood.
>
> You're right.
>
> 'Oh, yeah, her mother Andromeda was my favourite cousin,'
> said Sirius, examining the tapestry closely. 'No, Andromeda's
> not on here either, look -'
> He pointed to another small round burn mark between two
> names, Bellatrix and Narcissa.
> [Sirius, OotP-6 'The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black']
>
> Not that it changes things very much -- the inconsistency is still
> present, though it does make it clear that JKR intended already from
> OotP that Bellatrix be the oldest of the three.
>
> Narcissa married Lucius who is already a few years older than his
> lapdog -- if we have to add the full difference between Bella and
> Narcissa, then Narcissa is quite a lot younger than her husband.
>
> For all that it might be easier to assume that Bellatrix is about
> Lucius' age and introduced Lucius and Narcissa, but that won't remove
> the inconsistency between Bellatrix' and Tonks' ages, so it doesn't
> help, and there is still the problem that the evidence is
> contradictory, and making specific suggestions is just making it
> worse.
>
> --
> Troels Forchhammer
> Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
>
> The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the
> same level of thinking with which we created them.
> - Albert Einstein

The only thing I tryed to clear up was the order of the sisters. As to
the rest of it I never botherd with it.
In fact do to JKR's math and lack of working with a hard time line in
most cases I gave up long ago. But I still give the few land marks when
I remember them in hopes that some one else might do better at it. or at
least come up with an intresting idea.


--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: Lily's profession [message #205646 ] Di, 17 Januar 2006 10:29
richard e white  
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>
> > Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
>
> >>> Not that it changes things very much -- the inconsistency is
> >>> still present, though it does make it clear that JKR intended
> >>> already from OotP that Bellatrix be the oldest of the three.
>
> >> I don't know how you can say that was her intention, especially
> >> since Andromeda's position in the middle means that she's the
> >> oldest.
>
> > Admittedly my experience with British family trees is limited to
> > those in Tolkien's works (in LotR and elsewhere), but in those the
> > oldest is /always/ leftmost and the youngest rightmost, so, since
> > this is consistent with what I have encountered in other contexts,
> > I naturally assumed that the same is the case here.
>
> > Admittedly I might be wrong, but I'm afraid you'd have to come up
> > with a resource showing that the order you suggest is the 'correct'
> > order in British family trees (e.g. a reference to a genealogical
> > society) if you wish to convince me that Tolkien's order isn't the
> > default ;-)
>
> It's not a question of British versus Danish family trees, but of
> family trees updated as new members are born versus family trees
> fully created as a fiction or written down as past history.
>
> When you know in advance who all the children are, you write them
> down in the logical order, left to right. But when you update an
> existing family tree, you don't know how far over to start, (plus
> it's tempting fate to assume more than one); so you place the one
> and only child underneath the parents. If they should be blessed
> with a second child, you update the tree with a name on the left;
> and should a third child arrive, you would balance to the right.
>
> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
>
> --
> Free Margaret Blaine now!

That is not the way that all of mine have been done for the last 60
years.


--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Re: Lily's profession [message #205653 ] Di, 17 Januar 2006 08:49
Blon Fel Fotch Passam  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> <snip>

> Gah! This is idiotic -- I'm quibbling about details of family trees,
> when Rowling is messing up her characters' ages again. Sorry for
> continuing it, this will be the last from me on the subject.

No worries Troels, let's look forward to the book 8 encyclopaedia. ^_^


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
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