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Science Fiction » alt.fan.starwars » No, there is another......
No, there is another...... [message #195383] Mi, 04 Januar 2006 21:31
Geoff  
I am new to this board, so please bear with me.......

So far I have read a lot of complaints (at other sites) about this quote
from ESB, and how Obi-Wan's witnessing the birth of both twins in ROTS is
inconsistent with this line. However, I have not read any valid theories or
explanations about this discrepancy.

Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
inconsistency?
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195384 ] Mi, 04 Januar 2006 21:42
Franklin Cross  
"Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote in message
news:11roc4sapjl4o8b [at] corp.supernews.com...
>I am new to this board, so please bear with me.......
>
> So far I have read a lot of complaints (at other sites) about this quote
> from ESB, and how Obi-Wan's witnessing the birth of both twins in ROTS is
> inconsistent with this line. However, I have not read any valid theories
> or explanations about this discrepancy.
>
> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
> inconsistency?
>

My theory is that he didn't bother watching his own movies before writing
the prequels. I find these inconsistencies quite offensive. I mean he could
have paid any nerd in this NG $10 per day to do this sort of simple fact
checking. Actually I'm sure most of the nerds in this group would do it for
free, or would have paid george for the opportunity. I guess ultimately
Lucas didn't think he could trust a fact checking star wars geek.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195387 ] Do, 05 Januar 2006 00:02
SpammersDie  
"Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote in message
news:11roc4sapjl4o8b [at] corp.supernews.com...
>I am new to this board, so please bear with me.......
>
> So far I have read a lot of complaints (at other sites) about this quote
> from ESB, and how Obi-Wan's witnessing the birth of both twins in ROTS is
> inconsistent with this line. However, I have not read any valid theories
> or explanations about this discrepancy.
>
> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
> inconsistency?

"She's a politician and they're not to be trusted."

Remember that Obi-Wan also reiterates to Luke in ROTJ that "You were our
only hope. Goddamn it, we can't afford another term of the Chancellor's
administration." And that was after Yoda rapped him one for saying that line
in ESB.

So that line in ESB doesn't mean he's forgotten that Leia exists. It just
means that unlike Yoda, he doesn't think much of her abilities for whatever
reason. He'd rather stick with the one Padawan that actually listens to him
and respects him for a change.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195388 ] Do, 05 Januar 2006 00:02
OSI  
Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey wrote:

> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
> inconsistency?

Because he wanted people to think for themselves and not be spoon fed
every little detail.


--
OSI
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195389 ] Do, 05 Januar 2006 00:28
Anybody  
In article <11roc4sapjl4o8b [at] corp.supernews.com>, "Geoffrey & Pamela
Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote:

> I am new to this board, so please bear with me.......
>
> So far I have read a lot of complaints (at other sites) about this quote
> from ESB, and how Obi-Wan's witnessing the birth of both twins in ROTS is
> inconsistent with this line. However, I have not read any valid theories or
> explanations about this discrepancy.
>
> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
> inconsistency?

It's not an inconsistency - abilities with the Force don't necessarily
run through an entire family line.

Having watched Luke growing up (albeit from a near-distance), he
already knew Luke had such abilities. Leia grew up on another planet
much further away, so Obi-Wan had no real way of knowing how good or
otherwise her Force ability may be.

Yoda on the other hand was living in isolation on Dagobah and perhaps
was able to "tune in" to Leia as well as Luke with no interference from
other people around him. Although Obi-Wan lived in the wilderness, the
planet did have MANY other higher-level beings.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195402 ] Do, 05 Januar 2006 03:52
Geoff  
What the heck is THAT supposed to mean?


"OSI" <abuse [at] msn.com> wrote in message
news:8uYuf.11$nT.0 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey wrote:
>
>> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
>> inconsistency?
>
> Because he wanted people to think for themselves and not be spoon fed
> every little detail.
>
>
> --
> OSI
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195403 ] Do, 05 Januar 2006 04:24
Anybody  
In article <11rp2j0i67usm63 [at] corp.supernews.com>, "Geoffrey & Pamela
Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote:
>
> "OSI" <abuse [at] msn.com> wrote in message
> news:8uYuf.11$nT.0 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> > Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey wrote:
> >
> >> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
> >> inconsistency?
> >
> > Because he wanted people to think for themselves and not be spoon fed
> > every little detail.
>
> What the heck is THAT supposed to mean?

It means that the opening scroll / crawl text for Episode IV will never
be changed to add the paragraph:

"Obi-wan, Owen and Beru look older because there is
a double sun on Tatooine and they have lived a tough
life in the outback of the Outer Rim planet."

and it should have to since a bit of common sense and using your brain
can work that out, just like 99.9% of the other so-called
"inconsistencies" and "plot holes" that some dim-bulb people come up
with.

If George Lucas had to explain every tiny little detail, then the
opening scroll would take MUCH longer than the whole six movies, the
Ewok movies, all the novels / comics and animated shows combined. :-\
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195410 ] Do, 05 Januar 2006 06:08
Wavy G  
The news had come out in the First World War: The bloody Red Baron was
flying wonce more. The Allied Command ignored all of its men, and
called on "Anybody" to do it again!

>In article <11rp2j0i67usm63 [at] corp.supernews.com>, "Geoffrey & Pamela
>Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote:
>>
>> "OSI" <abuse [at] msn.com> wrote in message
>> news:8uYuf.11$nT.0 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>> > Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey wrote:
>> >
>> >> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
>> >> inconsistency?
>> >
>> > Because he wanted people to think for themselves and not be spoon fed
>> > every little detail.
>>
>> What the heck is THAT supposed to mean?
>
>It means that the opening scroll / crawl text for Episode IV will never
>be changed to add the paragraph:
>
> "Obi-wan, Owen and Beru look older because there is
> a double sun on Tatooine and they have lived a tough
> life in the outback of the Outer Rim planet."

"And Obi-Wan doesn't recall 'ever owning a droid,' because
he never technically 'owned' R2-D2, as you know."

"And Leia remembers her mother--her REAL mother--because
she is extremely 'force-sensitive,' hence the 'images,
feelings' comment...Either that, or she actually considers
Bail Organa's wife to be her 'real' mother."


>and it should have to since a bit of common sense and using your brain
>can work that out, just like 99.9% of the other so-called
>"inconsistencies" and "plot holes" that some dim-bulb people come up
>with.
>
>If George Lucas had to explain every tiny little detail, then the
>opening scroll would take MUCH longer than the whole six movies, the
>Ewok movies, all the novels / comics and animated shows combined. :-\
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195412 ] Do, 05 Januar 2006 06:28
Brett McConnie  
"Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote in message
news:11roc4sapjl4o8b [at] corp.supernews.com...
> I am new to this board, so please bear with me.......
>
> So far I have read a lot of complaints (at other sites) about this quote
> from ESB, and how Obi-Wan's witnessing the birth of both twins in ROTS is
> inconsistent with this line. However, I have not read any valid theories
or
> explanations about this discrepancy.
>
> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
> inconsistency?

There is no inconsistency. Obi-Wan never met Leia, except for a couple of
minutes at her birth. He did however meet Luke; watched over him and began
his training. Without any knowledge of her heritage or any Jedi training at
all Obi-Wan did not believe that Leia offered anyu hope of defeating Darth
Vader and his Emperor. Only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his
ally, could do that. When he said "that boy is our last hope" he meant it
absolutely. He knew about Leia, of course he did! Yoda was a little more
pragmatic. There is no inconsistency.
--
"I tried so hard and got so far but, in the end, it doesn't even matter."

http://groups.msn.com/MyStarWarsCollection/shoebox.msnw
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195413 ] Do, 05 Januar 2006 06:43
Wavy G  
The news had come out in the First World War: The bloody Red Baron was
flying wonce more. The Allied Command ignored all of its men, and
called on "Brett McConnie" to do it again!

>"Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote in message
>news:11roc4sapjl4o8b [at] corp.supernews.com...
>> I am new to this board, so please bear with me.......
>>
>> So far I have read a lot of complaints (at other sites) about this quote
>> from ESB, and how Obi-Wan's witnessing the birth of both twins in ROTS is
>> inconsistent with this line. However, I have not read any valid theories
>or
>> explanations about this discrepancy.
>>
>> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
>> inconsistency?
>
>There is no inconsistency. Obi-Wan never met Leia, except for a couple of
>minutes at her birth. He did however meet Luke; watched over him and began
>his training. Without any knowledge of her heritage or any Jedi training at
>all Obi-Wan did not believe that Leia offered anyu hope of defeating Darth
>Vader and his Emperor. Only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his
>ally, could do that. When he said "that boy is our last hope" he meant it
>absolutely. He knew about Leia, of course he did! Yoda was a little more
>pragmatic. There is no inconsistency.


You're on the right path, McConnie. Not only had he never technically
"met" her, but he really had no reason to think she was still alive.
If you go back and watch ANH, she states in her message to him that
her "ship has fallen under attack." A message was broadcast by the
Empire that all aboard were killed, but in actuality they secretly
kept her prisoner. Not that Obi-Wan would have gotten that message,
but he had no way of knowing the Empire would keep her alive for
questioning.

Later, when they board the Death Star, Obi-Wan leaves the group to go
and disable to the tractor beam right before Artoo discovers the
Princess is onboard. Then he's killed shortly after they rescue her,
and thus never meets up with them again.

From Obi-Wan's perspective, Luke *was* the only hope.

I hope this has answered everybody's questions concerning this matter,
and may I PLEASE ask that we never, ever bring it up again? Thanks.

Love,
Wavy G
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195415 ] Do, 05 Januar 2006 08:26
SpammersDie  
> You're on the right path, McConnie. Not only had he never technically
> "met" her, but he really had no reason to think she was still alive.

Considering she was one of the two explicitly stated reasons Luke was
rushing off from Dagobah in the first place, it's very unlikely Obi-Wan was
confused as to Leia's state of mortality.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195416 ] Do, 05 Januar 2006 08:45
Wavy G  
The news had come out in the First World War: The bloody Red Baron was
flying wonce more. The Allied Command ignored all of its men, and
called on "SpammersDie" to do it again!

>
>> You're on the right path, McConnie. Not only had he never technically
>> "met" her, but he really had no reason to think she was still alive.
>
>Considering she was one of the two explicitly stated reasons Luke was
>rushing off from Dagobah in the first place, it's very unlikely Obi-Wan was
>confused as to Leia's state of mortality.

So there's only won girl called "Leia" in the entire galaxy??? Psh.
Think of it this way: What if Wedge was the won in trouble? There's
all kinds of people in the galaxy called "Antilles." Obi-Wan could
have thought "Captain Antilles is already dead, you dummy." Hmm? Am
I making you guys think today or what?

Oh, shit...forget it. Okay, so I didn't see this coming. Okay?
Perhaps we should discuss this issue further. OKAY? So, I admit it.
OKAY? OKAY???>??
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195422 ] Do, 05 Januar 2006 13:01
Mike Ward  
Since you are new I'll explain a few things.

This ng is infested with large number of obssessed fans who worship GL as a
god. Since he's a god he does not make mistakes and any suggestion that his
films contain any minor flaws or even that they are less than perfect is
blasphemy.

If you stick around there are a couple of standard pat arguments that you
will have to endure from the faithful.

There are no inconsistancies in Star Wars. If something seems inconsistant
it's because you are two lazy to write a story in your head that explains
the apparent inconsistancy.

And if the criticism is levied specifically at the PT then you will betold
told how much the OT sucks. I've never been able to grasp how someone who
loves the OT and can't stand to see it criticized expects that they can
defend the PT by putting down the OT, but no on ever said the GL
worshippers had any brains.

Mike

"Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote in
news:11rp2j0i67usm63 [at] corp.supernews.com:

> What the heck is THAT supposed to mean?
>
>
> "OSI" <abuse [at] msn.com> wrote in message
> news:8uYuf.11$nT.0 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>> Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey wrote:
>>
>>> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
>>> inconsistency?
>>
>> Because he wanted people to think for themselves and not be spoon fed
>> every little detail.
>>
>>
>> --
>> OSI
>
>
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195423 ] Do, 05 Januar 2006 13:03
Mike Ward  
Anybody <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in news:050120061624335748%
anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com:

> In article <11rp2j0i67usm63 [at] corp.supernews.com>, "Geoffrey & Pamela
> Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote:
>>
>> "OSI" <abuse [at] msn.com> wrote in message
>> news:8uYuf.11$nT.0 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>> > Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey wrote:
>> >
>> >> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
>> >> inconsistency?
>> >
>> > Because he wanted people to think for themselves and not be spoon fed
>> > every little detail.
>>
>> What the heck is THAT supposed to mean?
>
> It means that the opening scroll / crawl text for Episode IV will never
> be changed to add the paragraph:
>
> "Obi-wan, Owen and Beru look older because there is
> a double sun on Tatooine and they have lived a tough
> life in the outback of the Outer Rim planet."
>
> and it should have to since a bit of common sense and using your brain
> can work that out, just like 99.9% of the other so-called
> "inconsistencies" and "plot holes" that some dim-bulb people come up
> with.
>
> If George Lucas had to explain every tiny little detail, then the
> opening scroll would take MUCH longer than the whole six movies, the
> Ewok movies, all the novels / comics and animated shows combined. :-\
>

O there's another one of the silly arguments that I forgot about: pretend
that you were talking about something else and argue that instead.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195452 ] Fr, 06 Januar 2006 05:13
JGordon452  
And Anybody actually had the nerve to accuse me of thinking I can read
people's minds? Once again, he uses the same old tactics of insults
thrown at anyone who points out plot holes.

Well, boy genius, explain this plot hole: how did the Jedi somehow, in
the 3 years of leading a clone army, never get around to noticing Order
66 being in the clone training? Are we supposed to just accept this
phenomal lapse of intelligence? Sure, Order 66 makes a very good plot
device, but the execution of the idea still leaves a hole big enough to
drive a truck through.

Let's see Anybody try to spin his way out of this.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195456 ] Fr, 06 Januar 2006 06:39
Anybody  
In article <1136520814.097405.55060 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Nick Soapdish, Jr." <JGordon452 [at] aol.com> wrote:

> And Anybody actually had the nerve to accuse me of thinking I can read
> people's minds? Once again, he uses the same old tactics of insults
> thrown at anyone who points out plot holes.
>
> Well, boy genius, explain this plot hole: how did the Jedi somehow, in
> the 3 years of leading a clone army, never get around to noticing Order
> 66 being in the clone training? Are we supposed to just accept this
> phenomal lapse of intelligence? Sure, Order 66 makes a very good plot
> device, but the execution of the idea still leaves a hole big enough to
> drive a truck through.
>
> Let's see Anybody try to spin his way out of this.

If you think that is remotely a "plot hole" then you really should get
a brain transplant. :-\

And no I'm not going to bother trying to explain it to you since you
won't ever believe it anyway since it's not on-screen in front of your
nose.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195466 ] Fr, 06 Januar 2006 01:13
Geoff  
Mike,

Thanks foir your sage advice and kind words. Like I told Brett, I will
definitely be sticking around, thanks do sane types like yourself.....

Peace out,
Geoff



"Mike Ward" <m [at] d.w> wrote in message
news:Xns974247731F847mdw [at] 204.127.36.1...
> Since you are new I'll explain a few things.
>
> This ng is infested with large number of obssessed fans who worship GL as
> a
> god. Since he's a god he does not make mistakes and any suggestion that
> his
> films contain any minor flaws or even that they are less than perfect is
> blasphemy.
>
> If you stick around there are a couple of standard pat arguments that you
> will have to endure from the faithful.
>
> There are no inconsistancies in Star Wars. If something seems inconsistant
> it's because you are two lazy to write a story in your head that explains
> the apparent inconsistancy.
>
> And if the criticism is levied specifically at the PT then you will betold
> told how much the OT sucks. I've never been able to grasp how someone who
> loves the OT and can't stand to see it criticized expects that they can
> defend the PT by putting down the OT, but no on ever said the GL
> worshippers had any brains.
>
> Mike
>
> "Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote in
> news:11rp2j0i67usm63 [at] corp.supernews.com:
>
>> What the heck is THAT supposed to mean?
>>
>>
>> "OSI" <abuse [at] msn.com> wrote in message
>> news:8uYuf.11$nT.0 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>>> Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
>>>> inconsistency?
>>>
>>> Because he wanted people to think for themselves and not be spoon fed
>>> every little detail.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> OSI
>>
>>
>
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195468 ] Fr, 06 Januar 2006 10:26
Geoff  
Nick,

Being a newbie, I would love to hear your explanation.........

Geoff


"Nick Soapdish, Jr." <JGordon452 [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136520814.097405.55060 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> And Anybody actually had the nerve to accuse me of thinking I can read
> people's minds? Once again, he uses the same old tactics of insults
> thrown at anyone who points out plot holes.
>
> Well, boy genius, explain this plot hole: how did the Jedi somehow, in
> the 3 years of leading a clone army, never get around to noticing Order
> 66 being in the clone training? Are we supposed to just accept this
> phenomal lapse of intelligence? Sure, Order 66 makes a very good plot
> device, but the execution of the idea still leaves a hole big enough to
> drive a truck through.
>
> Let's see Anybody try to spin his way out of this.
>
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195473 ] Fr, 06 Januar 2006 23:10
Anybody  
"Mike Ward" <m [at] d.w> wrote in message
news:Xns974247731F847mdw [at] 204.127.36.1...
> Since you are new I'll explain a few things.
>
> This ng is infested with large number of obssessed fans who worship GL as
> a god. Since he's a god he does not make mistakes and any suggestion that
> his films contain any minor flaws or even that they are less than perfect
> is blasphemy.

I don't think anyone has ever said "George Lucas doesn't make
mistakes". He's made the movies how he wanted to make them, whether any
of us agree with this or that is completely irrelevant. There's no
point in continually whining that the Ewoks "suck" or that Greedo
shouldn't shoot first, etc., etc., etc.

The movies are made, and we have to live with that ... until some moron
in the future thinks they can "remake" Star Wars better, and churns out
some virtually unrecognisable rubbish that simply uses the same name.



> If you stick around there are a couple of standard pat arguments that you
> will have to endure from the faithful.
>
> There are no inconsistancies in Star Wars. If something seems inconsistant
> it's because you are two lazy to write a story in your head that explains
> the apparent inconsistancy.
>
<snip>

You missed the entire point.

Many of the so-called "inconsistencies" or "plot holes" are nothing of
the sort. Some ARE explained in the EU material and some can easily be
explained using your brain ... the problem is the fools who ask a
question and then sit there complaining that the answers they're given
aren't in the movies.

There's no possible way any movie maker can explain EVERY tiny little
detail and side-story in a two-hour movie. Some things HAVE to be left
to the viewer's own brains to figure out and / or for external novels,
future movies, etc. to fill in (if the fan-base is big enough).

Basically, if you ask a question, then accept the answers given or
offer a better answer. Don't just sit there like an whining on that
"it's not in the movie" or simply "doesn't make sense" ... THAT is lazy
and moronically stupid.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195476 ] Sa, 07 Januar 2006 00:40
Mike Ward  
"Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote in
news:11rse81knuat896 [at] corp.supernews.com:

> Mike,
>
> Thanks foir your sage advice and kind words. Like I told Brett, I
> will definitely be sticking around, thanks do sane types like
> yourself.....
>
> Peace out,
> Geoff
>

Oh, If I was sane, I wouldn't be here. :)
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195509 ] Sa, 07 Januar 2006 18:51
Revok  
"Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
news:050120061228449751%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> In article <11roc4sapjl4o8b [at] corp.supernews.com>, "Geoffrey & Pamela
> Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote:
>
>> I am new to this board, so please bear with me.......
>>
>> So far I have read a lot of complaints (at other sites) about this quote
>> from ESB, and how Obi-Wan's witnessing the birth of both twins in ROTS is
>> inconsistent with this line. However, I have not read any valid theories
>> or
>> explanations about this discrepancy.
>>
>> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
>> inconsistency?
>
> It's not an inconsistency - abilities with the Force don't necessarily
> run through an entire family line.
>
> Having watched Luke growing up (albeit from a near-distance), he
> already knew Luke had such abilities. Leia grew up on another planet
> much further away, so Obi-Wan had no real way of knowing how good or
> otherwise her Force ability may be.
>

Yes but that doesn't explain why Obi-Wan said 'that boy is our last hope'
instead of saying 'how is Leia's force sensitiveness doing as we might need
her imminently if Luke takes a pasting off of Vader'.

> Yoda on the other hand was living in isolation on Dagobah and perhaps
> was able to "tune in" to Leia as well as Luke with no interference from
> other people around him. Although Obi-Wan lived in the wilderness, the
> planet did have MANY other higher-level beings.

Are you Wes Hutchings in disguise??
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195510 ] Sa, 07 Januar 2006 18:53
Revok  
"Wavy G" <RaisedByElves [at] Northpole.gov> wrote in message
news:hpbpr15gvna0a8t49ovom8irpqjtp19224 [at] 4ax.com...
> The news had come out in the First World War: The bloody Red Baron was
> flying wonce more. The Allied Command ignored all of its men, and
> called on "Brett McConnie" to do it again!
>
>>"Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote in message
>>news:11roc4sapjl4o8b [at] corp.supernews.com...
>>> I am new to this board, so please bear with me.......
>>>
>>> So far I have read a lot of complaints (at other sites) about this quote
>>> from ESB, and how Obi-Wan's witnessing the birth of both twins in ROTS
>>> is
>>> inconsistent with this line. However, I have not read any valid
>>> theories
>>or
>>> explanations about this discrepancy.
>>>
>>> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
>>> inconsistency?
>>
>>There is no inconsistency. Obi-Wan never met Leia, except for a couple of
>>minutes at her birth. He did however meet Luke; watched over him and began
>>his training. Without any knowledge of her heritage or any Jedi training
>>at
>>all Obi-Wan did not believe that Leia offered anyu hope of defeating Darth
>>Vader and his Emperor. Only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his
>>ally, could do that. When he said "that boy is our last hope" he meant it
>>absolutely. He knew about Leia, of course he did! Yoda was a little more
>>pragmatic. There is no inconsistency.
>
>
> You're on the right path, McConnie. Not only had he never technically
> "met" her, but he really had no reason to think she was still alive.
> If you go back and watch ANH, she states in her message to him that
> her "ship has fallen under attack." A message was broadcast by the
> Empire that all aboard were killed, but in actuality they secretly
> kept her prisoner. Not that Obi-Wan would have gotten that message,
> but he had no way of knowing the Empire would keep her alive for
> questioning.

Hold on - Obi-Wan is a ghost when he makes this statement!!! How do you
know what he would or wouldn't know??? He lives in the afterlife is one
with the force for christ sake!!!

>
> Later, when they board the Death Star, Obi-Wan leaves the group to go
> and disable to the tractor beam right before Artoo discovers the
> Princess is onboard. Then he's killed shortly after they rescue her,
> and thus never meets up with them again.
>
> From Obi-Wan's perspective, Luke *was* the only hope.
>
> I hope this has answered everybody's questions concerning this matter,
> and may I PLEASE ask that we never, ever bring it up again? Thanks.
>
> Love,
> Wavy G
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195513 ] Sa, 07 Januar 2006 21:01
DKM  
"Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote in message
news:11roc4sapjl4o8b [at] corp.supernews.com...
>I am new to this board, so please bear with me.......
>
> So far I have read a lot of complaints (at other sites) about this quote
> from ESB, and how Obi-Wan's witnessing the birth of both twins in ROTS is
> inconsistent with this line. However, I have not read any valid theories
> or explanations about this discrepancy.
>
> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
> inconsistency?


I have read most the answers her and your part two post.

For my 2 cents, I think it is more simple and basic. Obi-Wan is looking at
Luke as the one who has some training in the ways of the force and there may
not be any opportunity to get Leia to Yoda for training.

DKM
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195518 ] So, 08 Januar 2006 01:27
Wavy G  
The news had come out in the First World War: The bloody Red Baron was
flying wonce more. The Allied Command ignored all of its men, and
called on "Revok" to do it again!

>
>"Wavy G" <RaisedByElves [at] Northpole.gov> wrote in message
>news:hpbpr15gvna0a8t49ovom8irpqjtp19224 [at] 4ax.com...
>> The news had come out in the First World War: The bloody Red Baron was
>> flying wonce more. The Allied Command ignored all of its men, and
>> called on "Brett McConnie" to do it again!
>>
>>>"Geoffrey & Pamela Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote in message
>>>news:11roc4sapjl4o8b [at] corp.supernews.com...
>>>> I am new to this board, so please bear with me.......
>>>>
>>>> So far I have read a lot of complaints (at other sites) about this quote
>>>> from ESB, and how Obi-Wan's witnessing the birth of both twins in ROTS
>>>> is
>>>> inconsistent with this line. However, I have not read any valid
>>>> theories
>>>or
>>>> explanations about this discrepancy.
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
>>>> inconsistency?
>>>
>>>There is no inconsistency. Obi-Wan never met Leia, except for a couple of
>>>minutes at her birth. He did however meet Luke; watched over him and began
>>>his training. Without any knowledge of her heritage or any Jedi training
>>>at
>>>all Obi-Wan did not believe that Leia offered anyu hope of defeating Darth
>>>Vader and his Emperor. Only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his
>>>ally, could do that. When he said "that boy is our last hope" he meant it
>>>absolutely. He knew about Leia, of course he did! Yoda was a little more
>>>pragmatic. There is no inconsistency.
>>
>>
>> You're on the right path, McConnie. Not only had he never technically
>> "met" her, but he really had no reason to think she was still alive.
>> If you go back and watch ANH, she states in her message to him that
>> her "ship has fallen under attack." A message was broadcast by the
>> Empire that all aboard were killed, but in actuality they secretly
>> kept her prisoner. Not that Obi-Wan would have gotten that message,
>> but he had no way of knowing the Empire would keep her alive for
>> questioning.
>
>Hold on - Obi-Wan is a ghost when he makes this statement!!! How do you
>know what he would or wouldn't know??? He lives in the afterlife is one
>with the force for christ sake!!!

I thought that when Jedis becomes won with the "Force" they can
communicate with other "Force"-users. Does it mean that they become
all-seeing/all-knowing "gods," who sit up there, and watch over all of
us (as depicted in this photo:
http://www.gunnargames.com/images/Mcd/land.jpg) when they die?

I guess the only person who can answer that question for us is George
Lucas. Does anywon know if he reads this group?


>
>>
>> Later, when they board the Death Star, Obi-Wan leaves the group to go
>> and disable to the tractor beam right before Artoo discovers the
>> Princess is onboard. Then he's killed shortly after they rescue her,
>> and thus never meets up with them again.
>>
>> From Obi-Wan's perspective, Luke *was* the only hope.
>>
>> I hope this has answered everybody's questions concerning this matter,
>> and may I PLEASE ask that we never, ever bring it up again? Thanks.
>>
>> Love,
>> Wavy G
>
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195519 ] So, 08 Januar 2006 01:33
Wavy G  
The news had come out in the First World War: The bloody Red Baron was
flying wonce more. The Allied Command ignored all of its men, and
called on "Revok" to do it again!

>
>"Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
>news:050120061228449751%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
>> In article <11roc4sapjl4o8b [at] corp.supernews.com>, "Geoffrey & Pamela
>> Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am new to this board, so please bear with me.......
>>>
>>> So far I have read a lot of complaints (at other sites) about this quote
>>> from ESB, and how Obi-Wan's witnessing the birth of both twins in ROTS is
>>> inconsistent with this line. However, I have not read any valid theories
>>> or
>>> explanations about this discrepancy.
>>>
>>> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
>>> inconsistency?
>>
>> It's not an inconsistency - abilities with the Force don't necessarily
>> run through an entire family line.
>>
>> Having watched Luke growing up (albeit from a near-distance), he
>> already knew Luke had such abilities. Leia grew up on another planet
>> much further away, so Obi-Wan had no real way of knowing how good or
>> otherwise her Force ability may be.
>>
>
>Yes but that doesn't explain why Obi-Wan said 'that boy is our last hope'
>instead of saying 'how is Leia's force sensitiveness doing as we might need
>her imminently if Luke takes a pasting off of Vader'.

Maybe Obi-Wan is looking at it from the "old-school" viewpoint that
boys are stronger than girls, so obviously Luke is their only hope,
but Yoda is way older, so maybe he sees it from a viewpoint from way,
way, way back in the past, perhaps when women were the dominant sex or
something, so maybe Yoda has a more "open mind" about the chance of a
girl becoming a hope to the Jedis.


>> Yoda on the other hand was living in isolation on Dagobah and perhaps
>> was able to "tune in" to Leia as well as Luke with no interference from
>> other people around him. Although Obi-Wan lived in the wilderness, the
>> planet did have MANY other higher-level beings.
>
>Are you Wes Hutchings in disguise??
>
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195536 ] Sa, 07 Januar 2006 12:02
ben  
My take on the "No, there is another" is that Yoda referred to Vadar
there which ultimatly turned out to be true.
I never really considered that Leia could be a force to match the
emperor.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195538 ] So, 08 Januar 2006 10:14
Revok  
"Wavy G" <RaisedByElves [at] Northpole.gov> wrote in message
news:t4n0s1dqest65gv31fc8e8nsncgt6pkmsj [at] 4ax.com...
> The news had come out in the First World War: The bloody Red Baron was
> flying wonce more. The Allied Command ignored all of its men, and
> called on "Revok" to do it again!
>
>>
>>"Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
>>news:050120061228449751%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
>>> In article <11roc4sapjl4o8b [at] corp.supernews.com>, "Geoffrey & Pamela
>>> Bovey" <geoff [at] humansaredoomed.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am new to this board, so please bear with me.......
>>>>
>>>> So far I have read a lot of complaints (at other sites) about this
>>>> quote
>>>> from ESB, and how Obi-Wan's witnessing the birth of both twins in ROTS
>>>> is
>>>> inconsistent with this line. However, I have not read any valid
>>>> theories
>>>> or
>>>> explanations about this discrepancy.
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone please provide a good theory about why GL allowed this
>>>> inconsistency?
>>>
>>> It's not an inconsistency - abilities with the Force don't necessarily
>>> run through an entire family line.
>>>
>>> Having watched Luke growing up (albeit from a near-distance), he
>>> already knew Luke had such abilities. Leia grew up on another planet
>>> much further away, so Obi-Wan had no real way of knowing how good or
>>> otherwise her Force ability may be.
>>>
>>
>>Yes but that doesn't explain why Obi-Wan said 'that boy is our last hope'
>>instead of saying 'how is Leia's force sensitiveness doing as we might
>>need
>>her imminently if Luke takes a pasting off of Vader'.
>
> Maybe Obi-Wan is looking at it from the "old-school" viewpoint that
> boys are stronger than girls, so obviously Luke is their only hope,
> but Yoda is way older, so maybe he sees it from a viewpoint from way,
> way, way back in the past, perhaps when women were the dominant sex or
> something, so maybe Yoda has a more "open mind" about the chance of a
> girl becoming a hope to the Jedis.

Maybe, maybe, maybe....the fact is it could have been better written and
without performing logistical gymnastics in your head - does appear to be a
bit of an oversite from George.

>
>
>>> Yoda on the other hand was living in isolation on Dagobah and perhaps
>>> was able to "tune in" to Leia as well as Luke with no interference from
>>> other people around him. Although Obi-Wan lived in the wilderness, the
>>> planet did have MANY other higher-level beings.
>>
>>Are you Wes Hutchings in disguise??
>>
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195539 ] So, 08 Januar 2006 10:16
Revok  
"Ben" <ben.murray.robertson [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136631720.947553.57360 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> My take on the "No, there is another" is that Yoda referred to Vadar
> there which ultimatly turned out to be true.
> I never really considered that Leia could be a force to match the
> emperor.
>

Didn't Yoda verify that the 'other' is Lukes twin sister in ROTJ?
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195541 ] So, 08 Januar 2006 14:38
Mike Ward  
"Revok" <robert_nospam [at] wgrace99.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in news:dpql8m$ges$1
[at] news8.svr.pol.co.uk:

>
> "Ben" <ben.murray.robertson [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1136631720.947553.57360 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> My take on the "No, there is another" is that Yoda referred to Vadar
>> there which ultimatly turned out to be true.
>> I never really considered that Leia could be a force to match the
>> emperor.
>>
>
> Didn't Yoda verify that the 'other' is Lukes twin sister in ROTJ?
>
>
>

No, but Ben did. And the force revealed it too Luke before Ben confirmed
it. So if Vader is the "other", Ben was completely out of the loop, and
Luke's incites did not serve him so well after all.

Mike
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195559 ] Mo, 09 Januar 2006 00:56
Anybody  
In article <dpql8m$ges$1 [at] news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Revok"
<robert_nospam [at] wgrace99.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> "Ben" <ben.murray.robertson [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1136631720.947553.57360 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > My take on the "No, there is another" is that Yoda referred to Vadar
> > there which ultimatly turned out to be true.
> > I never really considered that Leia could be a force to match the
> > emperor.
>
> Didn't Yoda verify that the 'other' is Lukes twin sister in ROTJ?

In TESB, after Luke leaves for Cloud City, Yoda and Obi-Wan's ghost are
talking:

"That boy is our last hope," Ben Kenobi said, his voice
heavy with emotion.

"No," Kenobi's former teacher corrected with a knowing
gleam in his large eyes, "there is another."


In RotJ, just as he dies, Yoda says:

"There ... is ... another ... sky..."

which indicates another Skywalker, but not necessarily that they are
another hope in defeating the Emperor and Vader.

After that it is Obi-Wan's ghost who confirms that this "other" is
Luke's twin sister, and Luke himself guesses that it is Leia. (Although
most movie viewers had already guessed that from the scene in TESB
where she hears Luke's plea for help from beneath Cloud City.)
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195561 ] Mo, 09 Januar 2006 02:36
Mike Ward  
Anybody <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in news:090120061256401103%
anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com:

> In article <dpql8m$ges$1 [at] news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Revok"
> <robert_nospam [at] wgrace99.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Ben" <ben.murray.robertson [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1136631720.947553.57360 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> > My take on the "No, there is another" is that Yoda referred to Vadar
>> > there which ultimatly turned out to be true.
>> > I never really considered that Leia could be a force to match the
>> > emperor.
>>
>> Didn't Yoda verify that the 'other' is Lukes twin sister in ROTJ?
>
> In TESB, after Luke leaves for Cloud City, Yoda and Obi-Wan's ghost are
> talking:
>
> "That boy is our last hope," Ben Kenobi said, his voice
> heavy with emotion.
>
> "No," Kenobi's former teacher corrected with a knowing
> gleam in his large eyes, "there is another."
>
>
> In RotJ, just as he dies, Yoda says:
>
> "There ... is ... another ... sky..."
>
> which indicates another Skywalker, but not necessarily that they are
> another hope in defeating the Emperor and Vader.
>
> After that it is Obi-Wan's ghost who confirms that this "other" is
> Luke's twin sister, and Luke himself guesses that it is Leia. (Although
> most movie viewers had already guessed that from the scene in TESB
> where she hears Luke's plea for help from beneath Cloud City.)
>

If by most you mean zero then you are correct. GL hadn't even decided Leia
was the other at that point. The other was going to be a new character when
ESB was made.

Mike
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195568 ] So, 08 Januar 2006 22:26
JGordon452  
Explanation of which, Order 66 or "no, there is another"?

If it's how Order 66 was never detected by the Jedi, I'm not sure how
it can be logically explained. Given that Lucas apparently said it's
not a "hardwired" command, and the website characterizes it as an order
identifying the Jedi as traitors, the only explanation I can come up
with to explain this, besides the Jedi being phenomenally stupid, is
that there were other similar contingency orders for possible
rebellions, which would have allayed suspicion that the Jedi were
targets of a plot. But even so, I would suspect that the existence of
these orders would have started the Jedi on the path to discovering the
plot against them.

As for "no, there is another", one possible viewpoint is that Yoda
refers not to Leia, but to the possibility that Vader could be
redeemed. I think the explanation that Obi-Wan has first-hand
witnessed Luke's potential is pretty good.

Being a newbie is nothing to be ashamed of. Too often, Usenet twits
try to lord their "experience" over newcomers. You'll find that
there'll be enough decent folk out there to overcome the troll/twit
factor. Hopefully. In the end, remember, it's only Usenet, not the
real world, so it's no big whoop, whatever happens.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195569 ] So, 08 Januar 2006 21:47
JGordon452  
Well, we have a de facto admission of defeat from Anybody. Looks like
he's been called on his position, and he's standing with his tongue
hanging out, with no response. He can't even bullshit his way out of
this one.

Better run home and cry, Anybody. Your arrogant "everyone who
disagrees with me is stupid" attitude has once again been successfully
ridiculed. Maybe you could join C'Pi and leave the newsgroup........

It appears that Anybody just doesn't have the understanding of human
nature to realize that pointing out some errors in an entertaining
movie is not a sign of stupidity. People wouldn't make fun of him if
he didn't bring it on himself with his attitude.

So put up, or shut up. Come up with a good explanation for the
question posed, or admit that you have no clue.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195573 ] So, 08 Januar 2006 23:05
JGordon452  
Short answer: you have no answer. Once again, you've been exposed as
all assholey bluster, no substance. You seriously need some social
skills. Maybe you'll realize that it's your attitude that is the
reason you are mocked. Maybe you should join your friend C'Pi, and go
cry in the corner.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195576 ] So, 08 Januar 2006 12:33
ben  
He confirmed that Leia was Luke's sister if I recall in RotJ, but that
is different from answering Obi-Wan's question that Luke is their last
hope.

Yoda's "No there is another" statement fit's into how the trilogy
actually ended. Luke failed to destroy the Emperor but his love did
nudge Anakin back into the light which complete's his prophecy. I think
Obi-Wan had lost sight of Anakin ever being able to help by the time
Luke was being trained whereas Yoda always had faith.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195579 ] Mo, 09 Januar 2006 10:42
Mike Ward  
"Ben" <ben.murray.robertson [at] gmail.com> wrote in
news:1136720012.908754.238750 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> He confirmed that Leia was Luke's sister if I recall in RotJ, but that
> is different from answering Obi-Wan's question that Luke is their last
> hope.
>
> Yoda's "No there is another" statement fit's into how the trilogy
> actually ended. Luke failed to destroy the Emperor but his love did
> nudge Anakin back into the light which complete's his prophecy. I think
> Obi-Wan had lost sight of Anakin ever being able to help by the time
> Luke was being trained whereas Yoda always had faith.
>
>

LUKE: Yoda spoke of another.

BEN: The other Yoda spoke of is your twin sister.

LUKE: But I have no sister.

BEN: Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your
father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to
have any offspring, they would be a threat to him.

There are not two "others": another hope and another Skywalker. The other
hope IS the other skywalker. Ben flat out states that the reason Luke's
sister was hidden was because she was a threat to the Emperor.

Mike
Re: No, there is another...... [message #195582 ] Mo, 09 Januar 2006 14:03
Goedel  
I doubt Yoda had any faith on Anakin's coming back into the light. From
the very beginning (in Episode III), Yoda believed that the boy Obi-Wan
had trained was gone for good, "consumed by Darth Vader". Yoda
obviously wanted Luke to confront Vader and kill him. That is why both
he and Obi-Wan hid from Luke the truth about Vader's identity. They
both feared Luke could not (and would not) kill his own father. I also
think Yoda never took the prophecy seriously ("misinterpreted may have
been").

Ben wrote:

> He confirmed that Leia was Luke's sister if I recall in RotJ, but that
> is different from answering Obi-Wan's question that Luke is their last
> hope.
>
> Yoda's "No there is another" statement fit's into how the trilogy
> actually ended. Luke failed to destroy the Emperor but his love did
> nudge Anakin back into the light which complete's his prophecy. I think
> Obi-Wan had lost sight of Anakin ever being able to help by the time
> Luke was being trained whereas Yoda always had faith.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #199582 ] Mo, 09 Januar 2006 21:07
Anybody  
In article <1136683428.895654.16030 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Nick Soapdish, Jr." <JGordon452 [at] aol.com> wrote:

> Well, we have a de facto admission of defeat from Anybody. Looks like
> he's been called on his position, and he's standing with his tongue
> hanging out, with no response. He can't even bullshit his way out of
> this one.

God knows what you're on about since you haven't even got the
intelligence to quote the message you're replying to.

I guess you mean me not trying to explain the non-existant "plot hole"
of Order 66 - which as I said I couldn't bothered wasting the time.



> Better run home and cry, Anybody. Your arrogant "everyone who
> disagrees with me is stupid" attitude has once again been successfully
> ridiculed. Maybe you could join C'Pi and leave the newsgroup........
>
> It appears that Anybody just doesn't have the understanding of human
> nature to realize that pointing out some errors in an entertaining
> movie is not a sign of stupidity. People wouldn't make fun of him if
> he didn't bring it on himself with his attitude.

As I said, it's not pointing out non-existant errors, it's asking for
an answer and then sitting there complaining that it doesn't make sense
or isn't in the movie that makes people stupid ... of course 99% of the
answers ARE simple enough for anyone who actually uses their brain to
work out for themselves, but most people are simply too lazy, it's
easier to ask someone else to think for you.


> So put up, or shut up. Come up with a good explanation for the
> question posed, or admit that you have no clue.

Yep, I have no clue why the human eace is so over-flowing with stupid
morons.
Re: No, there is another...... [message #199583 ] Mo, 09 Januar 2006 21:08
Anybody  
In article <1136683640.696913.307690 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Nick Soapdish, Jr." <JGordon452 [at] aol.com> wrote:

> Short answer: you have no answer. Once again, you've been exposed as
> all assholey bluster, no substance. You seriously need some social
> skills. Maybe you'll realize that it's your attitude that is the
> reason you are mocked. Maybe you should join your friend C'Pi, and go
> cry in the corner.

Another moron to add to the killfile.

YOU are the weakest link, good ridience. :-\
Re: No, there is another...... [message #199595 ] Di, 10 Januar 2006 05:05
JGordon452  
The killfile: the easy way out, eh? Go figure, from someone who has to
go on about someone not quoting a message when threading from Google
Groups works well enough. Of course Anybody would have to fall back on
this kind of nitpicking, as he pretty much admits he has no explanation
or answer for the questions posed. BTW, it's not spelled "ridience".
If you're going to quote a crappy gameshow as an attempt to look witty
while running for the exit, at least do it competently.
Vorheriges Thema:No, there is another......PART TWO
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