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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Balrog Report: December 2005
Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #192180] Fr, 30 Dezember 2005 00:39
Michael  
NOTE: Followups have been set to the Tolkien news groups.

The short news is that a new essay has been published at MERP.COM:
http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/flyingaway

As several of you have noted, THE LORD OF THE RINGS: A READER'S
COMPANION has revealed at long last that the "Uruk-hai/Uruk" index
entry in UNFINISHED TALES OF NUMENOR AND MIDDLE-EARTH cannot possibly
have been written by J.R.R. Tolkien. I await the next round of
"standard" opinion posts on the matter, as I am sure they will be
creative and as (un)faithful to Tolkien as have so many of your other
ideas. I'm always willing to look at new information on every topic.
It means nothing to me to be proven wrong on a point, as when Wayne
Hammond reversed a long-published report about Tolkien and the Book of
Job in the Jerusalem Bible.

However, during my past few months of silence, several people took the
opportunity to show their true colors in the Tolkien news group and the
angband news group. In July, when the Tolkien flamers were disrupting
a discussion about one of the Tolkien news group FAQs, stealthy_tanaka
(Sindamor Pandaturion), not exactly my most ardent admirer, posted the
following:

> From: stealthy_tan... [at] remove-yahoo.com
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
> Subject: Re: What is difference between orcs and goblins????
> Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 23:37:54 GMT
>
> On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:17:52 +0200, "Taemon" <Tae... [at] zonnet.nl> wrote:
>
> >Larry Swain wrote:
> >
> >> No, Steuard, look at the number of personal insults Michael has
> >> hurled at you in this discussion alone, for which you had to remind him
> >> that you had done nothing of the kind to him. The only reason your
> >> discussions remain civil is that you're a gentleman and haven't sunk
> >> to Michael's level.
>
> >> Unlike you and several others. Could you stop it, already?
> >
> >T.
> >
> Just idle curiousity on my part, but if everyone but mm stops it, then
> it will still not be stopped, lessened, certainly, but not stopped,
> true?
>
> On the other hand, if mm stops it, but the others continue, then you
> may have a point. I fear that it will always remain a hypothetical.
>
>
> Sindamor Pandaturion

Dude, you knew better at the time that the others would not stop. On
October 22, R. Dan Henry made the following poison pen post to the
angband group:

> Note that www.xenite.org belong to Michael Martinez and his opinions are
> sometimes not merely non-standard, but, well, wacky. [1] His
> argumentation has degenerated in more recent years into mere abuse and
> his use of "evidence" to back his viewpoint selective at best. He wasn't
> always like this, and at least some of his essays still have merit.
> However, they need to be looked at with more than the usual amount of
> caution.

While I am sure Mr. Henry is much loved and respected by the people in
that discussion group, the fact he still feels compelled to lie about
and flame me whenever he sees an opportunity says a great deal about
the (lack of) maturity and quality in his character. And he has the
gall to call me "wacky". As for whether my opinions are
"non-standard", well, his are (thank God) NOT the standard by which all
others are judged.

Nonetheless, on December 14, we were treated to the following:

> From: Tamim <halla... [at] hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
> Subject: Re: What's your favorite Tolkien name?
> Date: 14 Dec 2005 15:14:32 GMT
>
> Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2... [at] nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> snip
> > It is a combination of several factors: The pronunciation of
> > Morgoth's Curse is roughly similar to my real name Michael Kohrs. It
> > is also a private joke on my part since I am sure that some of the
> > folks here--chiefly Michael Martinez and Tamim--have frequently cursed
> > my name.
>
> MM curses everybody's name. Conrad's maybe most of all, but
> also mine and yours and even Steuard's.
> Anyway MM is not really 'here' anymore, unless you just summoned him
> from the abyss of WWW.

Tamim, it was your post, actually, that "summoned me from the abyss of
WWW". And, no, I don't curse anyone's name. I do occasionally wish
you guys would grow up and stop being assholes, but I'm not waiting for
that to happen.

As I have often said, this will only stop when YOU people stop it. It
began with you, it continues with you, and it can only end with you.

Yet none of you are willing to take responsibility for your actions.
You continue to post lies and flames in the news groups about someone
who posts maybe once or twice a year.

Get over it.

In the meantime, if any of you want to discuss what I have to say in
the new essay, and/or what Hammond and Scull have to say in the
READER'S COMPANION (or what they don't say, as there is hardly anything
at all about Uruks and Uruk-hai), I'll continue to monitor the Tolkien
groups for a couple of weeks.

While I do expect the usual flames, snarls, lies, and insults, I would
welcome a surprise return to civility and maturity.

Ojevind, I did enjoy "We are the Effing Uruk-hai". It did capture the
essence of the argument. Sometimes, even when you're trying to be an
ass, you actually say things more honest and profound than the other
people who hang here. I just wish you were more consistently on the
civil and decent side.

I wish that for all of you.

I'm sorry Softrat never changed his ways before he passed away. He was
taken to task for being an asshole in a physics group. I hope you all
realize that you will be remembered for what you actually do and say,
and not as the great human beings you pretend to be while attacking and
harassing people you don't agree with.

Sure, I've responded to your flames and lies with some pretty hard
words. After 8 years of putting up with your abuse and harassment, I'm
pretty much wired to respond. You've proven that Pavlov's Dogs
principle still works.

Bully for the Usenet bullies.

In any event, like I said, I'm willing to discuss the essay (which was
written largely for you) and the book (which several of you have
discussed almost fearfully). I decided to wait until it was published
in the U.S. to comment on it, as so many (of my) readers don't buy
their books overseas.

If you keep your comments civil, refrain from engaging in the usual
insults and poison pen remarks, and don't insist on pretending you've
never said or seen something before, you have no reason to expect me to
be angry, defensive, abusive, or in any way critical of your childish,
abusive, and harassing remarks.

After this post, it's up to you guys. You have shown everyone you
cannot be trusted to behave enough times that maybe I really am wacky
for making an offer like this, but here is an opportunity for you to
show you honestly want to engage in civil discourse.

Surprise us all.






--
There's nothing like a good .sig. And this is NOTHING like a good .sig.
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #192181 ] Fr, 30 Dezember 2005 01:51
Polarhound  
Here's a better idea.. I just add you to my KF for crossposting to
groups that couldn't care less about your little tiff.
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #192182 ] Fr, 30 Dezember 2005 02:07
Michael  
Polarhound wrote:
> Here's a better idea.. I just add you to my KF for crossposting to
> groups that couldn't care less about your little tiff.

LOL! Let's see if you did. BTW, I noticed you posted the following
civil message in another group a few days ago:

> Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:03:13 -0500
> From: Polarhound <Polarho... [at] comcast.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.sports.football.pro.indy-colts
> Subject: Re: Pats
>
> Moon ShineATFGary wrote:
> > I'm no Genius, but I'll put my knowledge of football on the line with
> > you any day.
> >
> If brains were cotton, you couldn't tampon a termite.

Followups directed to alt. flame.


--
Aren't you glad you don't read meaningless .sigs?
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #192183 ] Fr, 30 Dezember 2005 04:28
Leon Trollski  
<Michael [at] xenite.org> wrote in message
news:1135899558.325740.162570 [at] g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> NOTE: Followups have been set to the Tolkien news groups.

Er, isn't this off-topic? ie. totally of no interest to readers of this NG?
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #192184 ] Fr, 30 Dezember 2005 05:09
Michael  
Hoping to stir up trouble, Leon Trollski falsely wrote:
> <Michael [at] xenite.org> wrote in message
> news:1135899558.325740.162570 [at] g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > NOTE: Followups have been set to the Tolkien news groups.
>
> Er, isn't this off-topic? ie. totally of no interest to readers of this NG?

Nope.

--
No .sigs were harmed in the making of this message.
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #192191 ] Fr, 30 Dezember 2005 14:31
Christopher Kreuzer  
Michael [at] xenite.org <Michael [at] xenite.org> wrote:
> NOTE: Followups have been set to the Tolkien news groups.
>
> The short news is that a new essay has been published at MERP.COM:
> http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/flyingaway

<rest snipped>

Thanks for that, Michael. I enjoyed reading that essay, especially the
first half. Did you see the recent (fairly short) thread here on
/Reader's Companion/? I think that is what you are referring to here:

> In any event, like I said, I'm willing to discuss the essay (which was
> written largely for you) and the book (which several of you have
> discussed almost fearfully). I decided to wait until it was published
> in the U.S. to comment on it, as so many (of my) readers don't buy
> their books overseas.

So where do you want to start with discussing /Reader's Companion/? A
general discussion or a discussion on specific entries? I agreed with
your comment here:

"I fully expect to require about two years to really get into the depth
of this work, not simply because of the new citations and references,
but also because they have rephrased some older points of view better
than I have seen them expressed. But, of course, the new material will
provide considerable food for thought for years to come."

As for your essay, I liked the phrase you used about Tolkien:
"navigating the perilous waters of backwriting", but I was wondering why
backwriting would be more perilous than, say, extending a story forward,
or expanding a world into new places? In both cases, you have to strive
to maintain internal consistency, weaving an intricate web that will
stand up to scrutiny.

I do find this phenomenon of "backwriting" interesting. Do you know of
any other examples apart from the ? I would guess there a quite a lot of
examples, though it might depend on how strictly you define
"backwriting".

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #192192 ] Fr, 30 Dezember 2005 14:33
Christopher Kreuzer  
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

> I do find this phenomenon of "backwriting" interesting. Do you know of
> any other examples apart from the ?

Oops! I meant to write "apart from the ones you mention".
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #192193 ] Fr, 30 Dezember 2005 15:04
Michael  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Michael [at] xenite.org <Michael [at] xenite.org> wrote:
> Thanks for that, Michael. I enjoyed reading that essay, especially the
> first half. Did you see the recent (fairly short) thread here on
> /Reader's Companion/? I think that is what you are referring to here:

I have read several comments here about the Reader's Companion over the
past few weeks, including Wayne's followups.

> So where do you want to start with discussing /Reader's Companion/? A
> general discussion or a discussion on specific entries? I agreed with
> your comment here:
>
> "I fully expect to require about two years to really get into the depth
> of this work, not simply because of the new citations and references,
> but also because they have rephrased some older points of view better
> than I have seen them expressed. But, of course, the new material will
> provide considerable food for thought for years to come."

An overview of the book's value is a good start for me. I get the
sense, from comments people have made elsewhere, that the book's
intrinsic value to the hardcore fans is not self-evident. This book
will clearly assist people who are new to Tolkien come up to speed on
LoTR, but I think many long-time readers will appreciate the diversity
of perspectives that it brings together.

> As for your essay, I liked the phrase you used about Tolkien:
> "navigating the perilous waters of backwriting", but I was wondering why
> backwriting would be more perilous than, say, extending a story forward,
> or expanding a world into new places? In both cases, you have to strive
> to maintain internal consistency, weaving an intricate web that will
> stand up to scrutiny.

When you are writing a story, much of it is fresh in your mind. You
can still make slips. But if, after several years of being away from
the primary narrative, you go back to fill in the gaps, you may
introduce inconsistencies because you don't remember everything. There
are a few cases in HOME where Christopher mentions that his father took
a story in a different direction because he could not find old notes or
manuscripts.

> I do find this phenomenon of "backwriting" interesting. Do you know of
> any other examples apart from the ? I would guess there a quite a lot of
> examples, though it might depend on how strictly you define
> "backwriting".

The history of Celeborn and Galadriel stands out in my mind. Tolkien
didn't so much forget stuff there as simply change his mind about
stuff.

--
A .sig is just a .sig, unless it's a .sig that will not serve.
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #192200 ] Sa, 31 Dezember 2005 00:35
rhymeswith  
Michael [at] xenite.org wrote:
> NOTE: Followups have been set to the Tolkien news groups.
>
> The short news is that a new essay has been published at MERP.COM:
> http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/flyingaway
>
> As several of you have noted, THE LORD OF THE RINGS: A READER'S
> COMPANION has revealed at long last that the "Uruk-hai/Uruk" index
> entry in UNFINISHED TALES OF NUMENOR AND MIDDLE-EARTH cannot possibly
> have been written by J.R.R. Tolkien. I await the next round of
> "standard" opinion posts on the matter, as I am sure they will be
> creative and as (un)faithful to Tolkien as have so many of your other
> ideas. I'm always willing to look at new information on every topic.
> It means nothing to me to be proven wrong on a point, as when Wayne
> Hammond reversed a long-published report about Tolkien and the Book of
> Job in the Jerusalem Bible.
>
> However, during my past few months of silence, several people took the
> opportunity to show their true colors in the Tolkien news group and the
> angband news group. In July, when the Tolkien flamers were disrupting
> a discussion about one of the Tolkien news group FAQs, stealthy_tanaka
> (Sindamor Pandaturion), not exactly my most ardent admirer, posted the
> following:
>
> > From: stealthy_tan... [at] remove-yahoo.com
> > Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
> > Subject: Re: What is difference between orcs and goblins????
> > Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 23:37:54 GMT
> >
> > On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:17:52 +0200, "Taemon" <Tae... [at] zonnet.nl> wrote:
> >
> > >Larry Swain wrote:
> > >
> > >> No, Steuard, look at the number of personal insults Michael has
> > >> hurled at you in this discussion alone, for which you had to remind him
> > >> that you had done nothing of the kind to him. The only reason your
> > >> discussions remain civil is that you're a gentleman and haven't sunk
> > >> to Michael's level.
> >
> > >> Unlike you and several others. Could you stop it, already?
> > >
> > >T.
> > >
> > Just idle curiousity on my part, but if everyone but mm stops it, then
> > it will still not be stopped, lessened, certainly, but not stopped,
> > true?
> >
> > On the other hand, if mm stops it, but the others continue, then you
> > may have a point. I fear that it will always remain a hypothetical.
> >
> >
> > Sindamor Pandaturion
>
> Dude, you knew better at the time that the others would not stop. On
> October 22, R. Dan Henry made the following poison pen post to the
> angband group:
>
> > Note that www.xenite.org belong to Michael Martinez and his opinions are
> > sometimes not merely non-standard, but, well, wacky. [1] His
> > argumentation has degenerated in more recent years into mere abuse and
> > his use of "evidence" to back his viewpoint selective at best. He wasn't
> > always like this, and at least some of his essays still have merit.
> > However, they need to be looked at with more than the usual amount of
> > caution.
>
> While I am sure Mr. Henry is much loved and respected by the people in
> that discussion group, the fact he still feels compelled to lie about
> and flame me whenever he sees an opportunity says a great deal about
> the (lack of) maturity and quality in his character. And he has the
> gall to call me "wacky". As for whether my opinions are
> "non-standard", well, his are (thank God) NOT the standard by which all
> others are judged.
>
> Nonetheless, on December 14, we were treated to the following:
>
> > From: Tamim <halla... [at] hotmail.com>
> > Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
> > Subject: Re: What's your favorite Tolkien name?
> > Date: 14 Dec 2005 15:14:32 GMT
> >
> > Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2... [at] nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > snip
> > > It is a combination of several factors: The pronunciation of
> > > Morgoth's Curse is roughly similar to my real name Michael Kohrs. It
> > > is also a private joke on my part since I am sure that some of the
> > > folks here--chiefly Michael Martinez and Tamim--have frequently cursed
> > > my name.
> >
> > MM curses everybody's name. Conrad's maybe most of all, but
> > also mine and yours and even Steuard's.
> > Anyway MM is not really 'here' anymore, unless you just summoned him
> > from the abyss of WWW.
>
> Tamim, it was your post, actually, that "summoned me from the abyss of
> WWW". And, no, I don't curse anyone's name. I do occasionally wish
> you guys would grow up and stop being assholes, but I'm not waiting for
> that to happen.
>
> As I have often said, this will only stop when YOU people stop it. It
> began with you, it continues with you, and it can only end with you.
>
> Yet none of you are willing to take responsibility for your actions.
> You continue to post lies and flames in the news groups about someone
> who posts maybe once or twice a year.
>
> Get over it.
>
> In the meantime, if any of you want to discuss what I have to say in
> the new essay, and/or what Hammond and Scull have to say in the
> READER'S COMPANION (or what they don't say, as there is hardly anything
> at all about Uruks and Uruk-hai), I'll continue to monitor the Tolkien
> groups for a couple of weeks.
>
> While I do expect the usual flames, snarls, lies, and insults, I would
> welcome a surprise return to civility and maturity.
>
> Ojevind, I did enjoy "We are the Effing Uruk-hai". It did capture the
> essence of the argument. Sometimes, even when you're trying to be an
> ass, you actually say things more honest and profound than the other
> people who hang here. I just wish you were more consistently on the
> civil and decent side.
>
> I wish that for all of you.
>
> I'm sorry Softrat never changed his ways before he passed away. He was
> taken to task for being an asshole in a physics group. I hope you all
> realize that you will be remembered for what you actually do and say,
> and not as the great human beings you pretend to be while attacking and
> harassing people you don't agree with.
>
> Sure, I've responded to your flames and lies with some pretty hard
> words. After 8 years of putting up with your abuse and harassment, I'm
> pretty much wired to respond. You've proven that Pavlov's Dogs
> principle still works.
>
> Bully for the Usenet bullies.
>
> In any event, like I said, I'm willing to discuss the essay (which was
> written largely for you) and the book (which several of you have
> discussed almost fearfully). I decided to wait until it was published
> in the U.S. to comment on it, as so many (of my) readers don't buy
> their books overseas.
>
> If you keep your comments civil, refrain from engaging in the usual
> insults and poison pen remarks, and don't insist on pretending you've
> never said or seen something before, you have no reason to expect me to
> be angry, defensive, abusive, or in any way critical of your childish,
> abusive, and harassing remarks.
>
> After this post, it's up to you guys. You have shown everyone you
> cannot be trusted to behave enough times that maybe I really am wacky
> for making an offer like this, but here is an opportunity for you to
> show you honestly want to engage in civil discourse.
>
> Surprise us all.
>

Surprise *me*.
Demonstrate that an actual person wrote this spew, rather than some
random text generator trolling usenet.

Pawn to King four, right back at you.

--
C.
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #192233 ] Mo, 02 Januar 2006 09:09
morgothscurse2002  
On 29 Dec 2005 15:39:18 -0800, Michael [at] xenite.org wrote:

>Tamim, it was your post, actually, that "summoned me from the abyss of
>WWW". And, no, I don't curse anyone's name. I do occasionally wish
>you guys would grow up and stop being assholes, but I'm not waiting for
>that to happen.
>
>As I have often said, this will only stop when YOU people stop it. It
>began with you, it continues with you, and it can only end with you.
>
>Yet none of you are willing to take responsibility for your actions.
>You continue to post lies and flames in the news groups about someone
>who posts maybe once or twice a year.
>
>Get over it.
>
>In the meantime, if any of you want to discuss what I have to say in
>the new essay, and/or what Hammond and Scull have to say in the
>READER'S COMPANION (or what they don't say, as there is hardly anything
>at all about Uruks and Uruk-hai), I'll continue to monitor the Tolkien
>groups for a couple of weeks.
>
>While I do expect the usual flames, snarls, lies, and insults, I would
>welcome a surprise return to civility and maturity.

>I'm sorry Softrat never changed his ways before he passed away. He was
>taken to task for being an asshole in a physics group. I hope you all
>realize that you will be remembered for what you actually do and say,
>and not as the great human beings you pretend to be while attacking and
>harassing people you don't agree with.
>
>Sure, I've responded to your flames and lies with some pretty hard
>words. After 8 years of putting up with your abuse and harassment, I'm
>pretty much wired to respond. You've proven that Pavlov's Dogs
>principle still works.

Am I the only one who savors the irony here? ;-)

Neither Michael O'Neill nor Russ had any cause to love the Softrat yet
both were able to say good things about him. The only one who has
denigrated his memory since his untimely death is....Michael Martinez.

I confess that I am actually rather surprised at Martinez's restraint
on this occasion.

>In any event, like I said, I'm willing to discuss the essay (which was
>written largely for you)

And we are VERY touched by your thoughtfulness. :-)

I found the essay interesting and thought-provoking, but rather
disorganized. It was a just a bit too ambitious and lacked the
clarity of Conrad's classic essay "The Truth About Balrogs." Do you
have any intention of "clarifying" it in the future?

I did not accept all of your arguments, but I will reserve my final
judgment on it until I have time to examine it more thoroughly.

> and the book (which several of you have
>discussed almost fearfully). I decided to wait until it was published
>in the U.S. to comment on it, as so many (of my) readers don't buy
>their books overseas.
>
>If you keep your comments civil, refrain from engaging in the usual
>insults and poison pen remarks, and don't insist on pretending you've
>never said or seen something before, you have no reason to expect me to
>be angry, defensive, abusive, or in any way critical of your childish,
>abusive, and harassing remarks.
>
>After this post, it's up to you guys. You have shown everyone you
>cannot be trusted to behave enough times that maybe I really am wacky
>for making an offer like this, but here is an opportunity for you to
>show you honestly want to engage in civil discourse.
>
>Surprise us all.

Two words, Mr. Martinez: Steuard Jensen. ;-)

Morgoth's Curse
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #196923 ] Fr, 06 Januar 2006 20:25
Michael  
Morgoth's Curse wrote:
> On 29 Dec 2005 15:39:18 -0800, Michael [at] xenite.org wrote:
> >In any event, like I said, I'm willing to discuss the essay (which was
> >written largely for you)
>
> And we are VERY touched by your thoughtfulness. :-)
>
> I found the essay interesting and thought-provoking, but rather
> disorganized. It was a just a bit too ambitious and lacked the
> clarity of Conrad's classic essay "The Truth About Balrogs." Do you
> have any intention of "clarifying" it in the future?

Clarifying Conrad's essay? No, he'll have to fix it himself.

> I did not accept all of your arguments, but I will reserve my final
> judgment on it until I have time to examine it more thoroughly.

I don't expect any of you to change your minds, to be honest, but my
hope is that you'll come to understand that much of the rhetoric in
this debate has been misdirected.

I did remove three paragraphs near the end of the essay on someone's
suggestion that they were unnecessarily provocative. Old habits die
hard. And there are still a couple of typos that need to be fixed, but
they'll have to wait.

--
Life without a signature is like...a bad simile without a metaphor.
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #200744 ] Do, 12 Januar 2006 18:30
Smaug the Magnificent  
Michael [at] xenite.org blathered

(snip whinge)
>
> I'm sorry Softrat never changed his ways before he passed away. He was
> taken to task for being an asshole in a physics group.
>
After he was dead? Now that takes REAL courage.
>
> Surprise us all.
>
You're using the 'royal plural' now. My how grand!

Cheers

Smaug
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #203243 ] Fr, 13 Januar 2006 18:59
Conrad Dunkerson  
Michael [at] xenite.org wrote:

> The short news is that a new essay has been published at MERP.COM:
> http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/flyingaway

All of that just to disagree with Hammond & Scull's view on the
'wings'? I can only imagine your reaction to their take on the 'talking
Ring' bit.
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #203247 ] Fr, 13 Januar 2006 19:44
Yuk Tang  
"conrad.dunkerson [at] worldnet.att.net"
<conrad.dunkerson [at] worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:1137175189.157613.93570 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Michael [at] xenite.org wrote:
>
>> The short news is that a new essay has been published at
>> MERP.COM: http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/flyingaway
>
> All of that just to disagree with Hammond & Scull's view on the
> 'wings'? I can only imagine your reaction to their take on the
> 'talking Ring' bit.

Is there any consensus on the fox?


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #203256 ] Sa, 14 Januar 2006 10:50
Christopher Kreuzer  
conrad.dunkerson [at] worldnet.att.net <conrad.dunkerson [at] worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> Michael [at] xenite.org wrote:
>
>> The short news is that a new essay has been published at MERP.COM:
>> http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/flyingaway
>
> All of that just to disagree with Hammond & Scull's view on the
> 'wings'? I can only imagine your reaction to their take on the
> 'talking Ring' bit.

Can't see anything controversial about the comment on the 'talking
Ring'. The Wheel of Fire is plainly something on the same level as
Sauron's eye. It represents Frodo in the same way that the Eye
represents Sauron. Of course, it also represents the Ring, which
confuses some people.

Christopher

--
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #203257 ] Sa, 14 Januar 2006 10:53
Christopher Kreuzer  
Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

[Reader's Companion]

> Is there any consensus on the fox?

Just a note that the passage is in the style of 'The Hobbit'.
Re: Balrog Report: December 2005 [message #203299 ] So, 15 Januar 2006 13:39
Christopher Kreuzer  
[Sorry for the late reply - saved it as a draft and forgot about it]

Michael [at] xenite.org <Michael [at] xenite.org> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

<snip>

>> So where do you want to start with discussing /Reader's Companion/? A
>> general discussion or a discussion on specific entries? I agreed with
>> your comment here:
>>
>> "I fully expect to require about two years to really get into the
>> depth of this work, not simply because of the new citations and
>> references, but also because they have rephrased some older points
>> of view better than I have seen them expressed. But, of course, the
>> new material will provide considerable food for thought for years to
>> come."
>
> An overview of the book's value is a good start for me. I get the
> sense, from comments people have made elsewhere, that the book's
> intrinsic value to the hardcore fans is not self-evident. This book
> will clearly assist people who are new to Tolkien come up to speed on
> LoTR, but I think many long-time readers will appreciate the diversity
> of perspectives that it brings together.

It does bring together a lot of perspectives. I was a bit taken aback to
find large quotes from /Letters/; all relevant of course, but I'm glad I
read /Letters/ before I read this book. Reading /Letters/ is its own
experience, and I'd say people should read /Letters/ before /Reader's
Companion/.

What I did, when I got hold of a copy of /Reader's Companion/ was to dip
in and out, looking at particular places in the book that interested me,
and seeing what I thought of the commentary. I rarely found myself
disagreeing, but was pleased to see that they don't try and cover
everything (though they do cover a lot).

Christopher

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