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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192071] Fr, 23 Dezember 2005 16:39
words of truth  
http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp

The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings

Peter J. Kreeft



This essay is an excerpt from Peter J. Kreeft's new book, The
Philosophy of Tolkien: The Worldview Behind The Lord of the Ring.


Can any one man incarnate every truth and virtue?

Throughout the New Testament we find a shocking simplicity: Christ does
not merely teach the truth, He is the truth; He does not merely show us
the way, He is the way; He does not merely give us eternal life, He is
that life. He does not merely teach or purchase our wisdom, our
righteousness and sanctification and redemption, but "God made [Him]
our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption" (1 Cor
1:30). How can all these universal values and truths be really and
completely present in one concrete individual person? Only if that
Person is divine (thus universal) as well as human (thus particular);
only by the Incarnation; only by what C. S. Lewis calls "myth become
fact".

J. R. R. Tolkien, like most Catholics, saw pagan myths not as wholly
mistaken (as most Protestants do), but as confused precursors of
Christianity. Man's soul has three powers, and God left him prophets
for all three: Jewish moralists for his will, Greek philosophers for
his mind, and pagan mythmakers for his heart and imagination and
feelings. Of course, the latter two are not infallible. C. S. Lewis
calls pagan myths "gleams of celestial strength and beauty falling on a
jungle of filth and imbecility" (Perelandra, p. 201). One of the key
steps in Lewis's conversion, as recounted in his autobiography,
Surprised by Joy, was his reading the chapter in Chesterton's The
Everlasting Man that showed him the relationship between Christianity
and pagan myths of salvation, death, and resurrection. Christianity was
"myth become fact".

Tolkien's Catholic tradition tends to have a high opinion of pagans who
know and follow the "natural law", for it interprets these pagans not
apart from Christ, but as imperfectly knowing Him. For Christ is not
just a thirty-three-year-old, six-foot-tall Jewish carpenter, but the
eternal Logos, the Mind of God, "the true light that enlightens every
man" (Jn 1:9). So Christ can be present even when not adequately known
in paganism. This is exactly what St. Paul told the Athenians (in Acts
17:23): "What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to
you." Christ's presence is not limited to the presence of the explicit
knowledge of Christ, or the revelation of Christ. As the Reformed
tradition puts it, there is also "general revelation" as well as
"special revelation".

So even though The Lord of the Rings is not an allegory of the Gospels,
we can find numerous parallels to the Gospels in The Lord of the Rings,
since the Person at the center of the Gospels is omnipresent in hidden
ways, not only in His eternal, universal nature as Truth, Goodness, and
Beauty, but even in His particular historical manifestation, His
Incarnation. For instance, Frodo's journey up Mount Doom is strikingly
similar to Christ's Way of the Cross. Sam is his Simon of Cyrene, but
he carries the cross bearer as well as the cross.

There is no one complete, concrete, visible Christ figure in The Lord
of the Rings, like Aslan in Narnia. But Christ is really, though
invisibly, present in the whole of The Lord of the Rings. The Lord of
the Rings is like the Eucharist. Under its appearances we find Christ,
who under these (pagan, universal) figures (symbols, not allegories),
is truly hidden: quae sub hisfiguris vere latitat.

He is more clearly present in Gandalf, Frodo, and Aragorn, the three
Christ figures. First of all, all three undergo different forms of
death and resurrection (see section 5.1 of The Philosophy of Tolkien:
The Worldview Behind The Lord of the Rings).

Second, all three are saviors: through their self-sacrifice they help
save all of Middle-earth from the demonic sway of Sauron. Third, they
exemplify the Old Testament threefold Messianic symbolism of prophet
(Gandalf), priest (Frodo), and king (Aragorn). These three "job
descriptions" correspond to the three distinctively human powers of the
soul, as discovered by nearly every psychologist from Plato to Freud:
head, heart, and hands, or mind, emotions, and will. For this reason
many great tales have three protagonists: Gandalf, Frodo, and Aragorn;
Mr. Spock, Bones McCoy, and Captain Kirk; Ivan, Alyosha, and Dmitri
Karamazov; St. John the philosophical mystic, St. James the practical
moralist, and St. Peter the courageous leader and Rock.

A fourth hidden presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings is in the
theme of divine providence (see section 2.2); for from the New
Testament point of view Christ is the supreme example in history of
divine providence-in fact, the single point of all other examples, of
all history.

A fifth presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings is in the creative
power of its language (see sections 9. 1 and 9-3). Christ is the Logos,
the Word of God. He is mentioned in the Bible as early as Genesis 1:3
(cf. Jn 1:3), but as a verb, not a noun.

A sixth presence is ecclesial. Tolkien was a Catholic and called The
Lord of the Rings "a Catholic book" (see section 2.4). He removed
"churches" from The Lord of the Rings not only to avoid anachronism but
also to show the presence, in the depths of his plot, of the universal
("catholic") Church. For the Church is not only an organization but
also an organism, an invisible, "mystical" Body, a "fellowship". The
word "church", from the Greek ek-klesia, means "the called out". A good
description of the Fellowship of the Ring.

For the Church, too, is a "fellowship of a ring", but her ring is
exactly the opposite of Sauron's. It is the Eucharist: a little wafer
that is equally round, but full rather than empty; the humble extension
of the Incarnation of God into man rather than the proud
self-exaltation of man in order to make himself God. The Ring takes
your life, your blood, like Dracula, a perfect opposite to Christ, Who
comes to give His blood, to give us a blood transfusion. The two
symbols are perfect opposites: the Ring of Power and the Bread of
Weakness, the Lord of the Rings and the Lamb of God.

The whole of history, as revealed in the Bible, is the cosmic jihad
between Christ and Antichrist, martyr and vampire, humility of God
versus pride of man. Throughout the Bible there is vertical symbolism
exemplifying this contrast. Paradise is made in Eden by God's
self-giving descent and lost through man's self-taking, man's
succumbing to the devil's temptation to become "like God". The apparent
rise is really the "fall". After Paradise is lost, the City of Man
tries to rise up to Heaven again by its own power, in the Tower of
Babel, and falls. And when Paradise is finally regained, the New
Jerusalem of the City of God descends from Heaven as a grace.

The most fundamental Christian symbol is the Cross. This also is
perfectly opposite to the Ring. The Cross gives life; the Ring takes
it. The Cross gives you death, not power; the Ring gives you power even
over death. The Ring squeezes everything into its inner emptiness; the
Cross expands in all four directions, gives itself to the emptiness,
filling it with its blood, its life. The Ring is Dracula's tooth. The
Cross is God's sword, held at the hilt by the hand of Heaven and
plunged into the world not to take our blood but to give us His. The
Cross is Christ's hypodermic; the Ring is Dracula's bite. The Cross
saves other wills; the Ring dominates other wills. The Cross liberates;
the Ring enslaves.

The Cross works only freely, by the vulnerability of love. Love is
vulnerable to rejection, and thus apparent failure. Frodo offers Gollum
free kindness, but he fails to win Gollum's trust and fails himself, at
the Crack of Doom, to complete his task. But his philosophy does not
fail.

He could have used the philosophy of Sauron, of the Ring. He could have
used force and compelled Gollum, or even justly killed him. But no one
can make another person good by controlling his will, not even God.
Frodo nearly won Gollum by his kindness, but Gollum chose not to trust
and lost both his body and his soul. Frodo failed.

There is no room for failure in the philosophy of Sauron. There is room
for failure in the philosophy of Tolkien, for the philosophy of Tolkien
is simply Christianity. And according to Christianity, the most
revealing thing that ever happened in history happened at another Crack
of Doom, when Christ "failed", lost, died. That was how the meek little
Lamb defeated the great dragon beast (see Rev 17, especially verse 14):
by His blood. Frodo did what Christ did, and it "worked" because Christ
did it, because it was real, not fantasy, and it was real because the
real world is a "Christian" world. Only in a Christian world can this
"failure" have such power.

It is a very strange philosophy. A few pagan sages like Lao Tzu
understood the principle of the power of weakness, but he did not know
it would come from a literal, bloody event in history. Neither did
Frodo. Like Socrates, Buddha, and Lao Tzu, Frodo did not see Christ,
yet somehow believed: "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet
believe" (Jn 20:29).




------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------


Peter Kreeft, Ph.D., is a professor of philosophy at Boston College. He
is an alumnus of Calvin College (AB 1959) and Fordham University (MA
1961, Ph.D., 1965). He taught at Villanova University from 1962-1965,
and has been at Boston College since 1965.

He is the author of numerous books (over forty and counting) including:
C.S. Lewis for the Third Millennium, Fundamentals of the Faith,
Catholic Christianity, Back to Virtue, and Three Approaches to
Abortion. In addition to Socrates Meets Sartre, his most recent
Ignatius Press books include You Can Understand the Bible and The God
Who Loves You.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192072 ] Fr, 23 Dezember 2005 16:57
jesshc  
words of truth wrote:
> http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
>
> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings

Who cares?
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192073 ] Fr, 23 Dezember 2005 18:19
Cambias  
JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrich's effort wrote:
> words of truth wrote:
> > http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
> >
> > The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
>
> Who cares?

Not the most incisive refutation I've ever seen. Could you expand it?

Cambias
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192074 ] Fr, 23 Dezember 2005 18:37
Mike Schilling  
"Cambias" <cambias [at] heliograph.com> wrote in message
news:1135358363.463430.101980 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrich's effort wrote:
>> words of truth wrote:
>> > http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
>> >
>> > The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
>>
>> Who cares?
>
> Not the most incisive refutation I've ever seen. Could you expand it?

I thought it was a reasonable exgesis, myself. If it weren't

1. spammishly cross-posted
2. 100% quoted material
3. far beyond the amount of printed text a Usenet post should quote

I'd probably respond to it. I'd be interested in having a conversation with
the author, but don't want in any way to encourage the spammer to strike
again.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192075 ] Fr, 23 Dezember 2005 20:33
Denis Loubet  
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth [at] hoshmail.com> wrote in message
news:1135352384.747007.69400 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
>
> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings

It's fiction.

F-I-C-T-I-O-N.

Do you know what that word means?


--
Denis Loubet
dloubet [at] io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192076 ] Fr, 23 Dezember 2005 17:35
Derek Broughton  
JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrich's effort wrote:

> words of truth wrote:
>> http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
>>
>> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
>
> Who cares?

Perhaps you don't. However, it's not at all out of place on any of the
posted newsgroups except, probably, rec.arts.sf.written.
--
derek
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192077 ] Fr, 23 Dezember 2005 22:02
Mike Schilling  
"Derek Broughton" <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:uilt73-fde.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca...
> JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrich's effort wrote:
>
>> words of truth wrote:
>>> http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
>>>
>>> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
>>
>> Who cares?
>
> Perhaps you don't. However, it's not at all out of place on any of the
> posted newsgroups except, probably, rec.arts.sf.written.

Other than copyright issues, of course. That's an awfully big chunk to
count as "fair use".
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192078 ] Fr, 23 Dezember 2005 22:22
whheydt  
In article <GBZqf.34853$BZ5.5294 [at] newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
Mike Schilling <mscottschilling [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Derek Broughton" <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
>news:uilt73-fde.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca...
>> JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrich's effort wrote:
>>
>>> words of truth wrote:
>>>> http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
>>>>
>>>> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
>>>
>>> Who cares?
>>
>> Perhaps you don't. However, it's not at all out of place on any of the
>> posted newsgroups except, probably, rec.arts.sf.written.
>
>Other than copyright issues, of course. That's an awfully big chunk to
>count as "fair use".

Unless that was the author that posted it...which just increases its spamitude.

--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA

My dime, my opinions.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192079 ] Fr, 23 Dezember 2005 22:54
Christopher Kreuzer  
words of truth <wordsoftruth [at] hoshmail.com> wrote:

<snip most of text and other newsgroups>

In case anyone didn't make it this far:

> The Cross is Christ's hypodermic; the Ring is Dracula's bite.

The most relevant Tolkien bit I could find was this, about
Christ-figures in LotR:

> He is more clearly present in Gandalf, Frodo, and Aragorn, the three
> Christ figures. First of all, all three undergo different forms of
death
> and resurrection (see section 5.1 of The Philosophy of Tolkien: The
> Worldview Behind The Lord of the Rings).

What! Just when it was getting interesting as well...

> Second, all three are saviors: through their self-sacrifice they help
save
> all of Middle-earth from the demonic sway of Sauron. Third, they
> exemplify the Old Testament threefold Messianic symbolism of
> prophet (Gandalf), priest (Frodo), and king (Aragorn).

Does this hold water? Sounds a bit silly to me. What form of death and
resurrection does Aragorn undergo? Not the Paths of the Dead surely? How
is Gandalf a prophet, and how is Frodo a priest?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192081 ] Fr, 23 Dezember 2005 22:58
Mike Schilling  
"Wilson Heydt" <whheydt [at] kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:IryzD7.H15 [at] kithrup.com...
> In article <GBZqf.34853$BZ5.5294 [at] newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
> Mike Schilling <mscottschilling [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Other than copyright issues, of course. That's an awfully big chunk to
>>count as "fair use".
>
> Unless that was the author that posted it...which just increases its
> spamitude.

The author is Peter Kreeft, Ph.D., a professor of philosophy at Boston
College, and it was a well-written and thoughtful piece. And the post
itself was a cut-and-paste job from a web page, with not a word added.
Which feels to me like the poster, unlike Dr. Kreeft, has nothing of his own
to say.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192084 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 01:24
Doc Smartass  
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth [at] hoshmail.com> wrote in
news:1135352384.747007.69400 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings

He was obviously represented by Isildur: he died early on and 2,000 years
later no one's heard from the bugger.

--
Doc Smartass XP - New Interface, Same Old Bastard

Keep THOR in THURSDAY!
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192085 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 06:22
phylter  
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth [at] hoshmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1135352384.747007.69400 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
>
> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings

From the foreword of "The Fellowship Of The Ring" page xvi in my 1995 Harper
Collins one volume edition.
"As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author
none. It is neither allegorical nor topical".

That means that any cretin that sees allegory in it has read that into it.
Or would you like it dumbed down for you, shit-fer-brains?

On second thought, The LOTR and the bible ARE inextricably linked, they're
both fantasy, and, as fiction, The LOTR pisses all over the bible...



--
Lörd Phÿltêr
Alt.Atheism #1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192086 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 07:15
Mike Schilling  
"Lörd Phÿltêr" <phylter [at] hsotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kW4rf.97321$V7.13656 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> "words of truth" <wordsoftruth [at] hoshmail.com> astounded us with:
> news:1135352384.747007.69400 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>> http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
>>
>> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
>
> From the foreword of "The Fellowship Of The Ring" page xvi in my 1995
> Harper
> Collins one volume edition.
> "As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the
> author
> none. It is neither allegorical nor topical".


And Twain said the following about Huckleberry Finn:

Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative
will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral
in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot
in it will be shot. By Order of the Author.

Do you really think anyone who detects Twain's views of slavery, religion,
or the ante-bellum South in the book is just imagining things?
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192087 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 07:39
rgorman  
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 06:15:58 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
<mscottschilling [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Lörd Phÿltêr" <phylter [at] hsotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:kW4rf.97321$V7.13656 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> "words of truth" <wordsoftruth [at] hoshmail.com> astounded us with:
>> news:1135352384.747007.69400 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
>>>
>>> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
>>
>> From the foreword of "The Fellowship Of The Ring" page xvi in my 1995
>> Harper
>> Collins one volume edition.
>> "As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the
>> author
>> none. It is neither allegorical nor topical".
>
>
>And Twain said the following about Huckleberry Finn:
>
> Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative
> will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral
> in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot
> in it will be shot. By Order of the Author.
>
>Do you really think anyone who detects Twain's views of slavery, religion,
>or the ante-bellum South in the book is just imagining things?

For that matter, let's face it. That book had a plot.

>
>
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192089 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 12:04
Bill Snyder  
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 06:39:54 GMT, rgorman [at] block.net (David Johnston)
wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 06:15:58 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
><mscottschilling [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Lörd Phÿltêr" <phylter [at] hsotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:kW4rf.97321$V7.13656 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>> "words of truth" <wordsoftruth [at] hoshmail.com> astounded us with:
>>> news:1135352384.747007.69400 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>> http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
>>>>
>>>> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
>>>
>>> From the foreword of "The Fellowship Of The Ring" page xvi in my 1995
>>> Harper
>>> Collins one volume edition.
>>> "As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the
>>> author
>>> none. It is neither allegorical nor topical".
>>
>>
>>And Twain said the following about Huckleberry Finn:
>>
>> Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative
>> will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral
>> in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot
>> in it will be shot. By Order of the Author.
>>
>>Do you really think anyone who detects Twain's views of slavery, religion,
>>or the ante-bellum South in the book is just imagining things?
>
>For that matter, let's face it. That book had a plot.

Lots of them, in fact. The ones the King and the Duke cooked up were
generally on the simple side, as befits their originators; but there
was a pretty elaborate one in the case of Tom and Huck's conspiracy to
free Jim from the shed.

--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192090 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 13:00
Nightshade  
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 06:15:58 GMT, While I was gettin a beer, somebody,
could have been "Mike Schilling" <mscottschilling [at] hotmail.com>, wrote:

>And Twain said the following about Huckleberry Finn:
>
> Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative
> will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral
> in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot
> in it will be shot. By Order of the Author.
>
>Do you really think anyone who detects Twain's views of slavery, religion,
>or the ante-bellum South in the book is just imagining things?

He didn't say they wasn't there, he just said threatened various
punishments, should you, try to find them.

Having read, Tom Sawyer, and, Huckleberry Finn, I agree that Sam
Clemins', views, shine through very clearly.
I suspect that he was well aware of that, and his remark was merely to
say that, that was not the purpose of the story.

OTOH, having read a couple of other things that he wrote, I have no
problem with the contradictory idea, that he was deliberately pointing
out that they WERE there.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192091 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 14:52
Douglas Berry  
What's so funny about peace, love and "Lörd Phÿltêr"
<phylter [at] hsotmail.com> posting the following on Sat, 24 Dec 2005
05:22:24 GMT iin alt.atheism?
>"words of truth" <wordsoftruth [at] hoshmail.com> astounded us with:
>news:1135352384.747007.69400 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>> http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
>>
>> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
>
>From the foreword of "The Fellowship Of The Ring" page xvi in my 1995 Harper
>Collins one volume edition.
>"As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author
>none. It is neither allegorical nor topical".
>
>That means that any cretin that sees allegory in it has read that into it.
>Or would you like it dumbed down for you, shit-fer-brains?

Tolkien's originasl title for the third volume was "The War of the
Ring." He objected to using "The Return of the King" because it was
far too religous, and revealed an important plot point that doesn't
come up until fairly late in the book (the reforging of Narsil,
Aragorn taking up the mantle of King of Gondor, and the Path sof the
Dead sequence.)

OK, I'm a geek.

>On second thought, The LOTR and the bible ARE inextricably linked, they're
>both fantasy, and, as fiction, The LOTR pisses all over the bible...

But the Bible has less singing.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192092 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 16:18
Matt Ruff  
words of truth wrote:
>
> Throughout the New Testament we find a shocking simplicity: Christ does
> not merely teach the truth, He is the truth; He does not merely show us
> the way, He is the way; He does not merely give us eternal life, He is
> that life.

He does not merely ask if we want fries with that, he is fries with that.

-- M. Ruff
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192093 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 18:00
seanohara  
In the Year of the Cock, the Great and Powerful Douglas Berry declared:
>
> Tolkien's originasl title for the third volume was "The War of
> the Ring." He objected to using "The Return of the King" because
> it was far too religous, and revealed an important plot point
> that doesn't come up until fairly late in the book (the reforging
> of Narsil,

Your mind has been corrupted by Jackson. Narsil was reforged in
Fellowship.

--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
Stormy: So, say I put my brain in a robot body and there's a war.
Robots versus humans. What side am I on?
-Sealab 2021
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192094 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 18:05
seanohara  
In the Year of the Cock, the Great and Powerful Lörd Phÿltêr declared:
> "words of truth" <wordsoftruth [at] hoshmail.com> astounded us with:
> news:1135352384.747007.69400 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
>
> From the foreword of "The Fellowship Of The Ring" page xvi in my
> 1995 Harper Collins one volume edition. "As for any inner meaning
> or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is
> neither allegorical nor topical".
>
> That means that any cretin that sees allegory in it has read that
> into it. Or would you like it dumbed down for you,
> shit-fer-brains?
>

The key word there is "intention" -- Tolkien would not deny that
LotR is colored by his Catholicism. And if you read on, you'd find
that Tolkien does acknowledge that the story has what he calls
"applicability" which he distinguishes from topicality, symbolism,
and allegory.

--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
Leela: Discussion is for the wise and the helpless, and I am neither.
-Doctor Who
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192095 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 19:07
Gene Ward Smith  
David Johnston wrote:

> >Do you really think anyone who detects Twain's views of slavery, religion,
> >or the ante-bellum South in the book is just imagining things?
>
> For that matter, let's face it. That book had a plot.

One might almost suspect a certain wry humor, were it not for Twain's
deadly serious reputation.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192096 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 20:09
Baronjosefr  
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet [at] io.com> wrote in message
news:m5-dnaBiFPORzDHeRVn-sA [at] io.com...
>
> "words of truth" <wordsoftruth [at] hoshmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1135352384.747007.69400 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
> >
> > The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
>
> It's fiction.
>
> F-I-C-T-I-O-N.
>
> Do you know what that word means?

Which is a perfect pairing of the two items, Christ and LoTR. Only one
questions remains: which of those two works of fiction is more realistic?
It's a tough one to call.

>
>
> --
> Denis Loubet
> dloubet [at] io.com
> http://www.io.com/~dloubet
> http://www.ashenempires.com
>
>
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192097 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 20:14
Baronjosefr  
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy [at] mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:agkqq11c8415bcujt608k5sjl4cbkm776j [at] 4ax.com...
> What's so funny about peace, love and "Lörd Phÿltêr"
> <phylter [at] hsotmail.com> posting the following on Sat, 24 Dec 2005
> 05:22:24 GMT iin alt.atheism?
> >"words of truth" <wordsoftruth [at] hoshmail.com> astounded us with:
> >news:1135352384.747007.69400 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> >
> >>
http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
> >>
> >> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
> >
> >From the foreword of "The Fellowship Of The Ring" page xvi in my 1995
Harper
> >Collins one volume edition.
> >"As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the
author
> >none. It is neither allegorical nor topical".
> >
> >That means that any cretin that sees allegory in it has read that into
it.
> >Or would you like it dumbed down for you, shit-fer-brains?
>
> Tolkien's originasl title for the third volume was "The War of the
> Ring." He objected to using "The Return of the King" because it was
> far too religous, and revealed an important plot point that doesn't
> come up until fairly late in the book (the reforging of Narsil,
> Aragorn taking up the mantle of King of Gondor, and the Path sof the
> Dead sequence.)
>
> OK, I'm a geek.
>
> >On second thought, The LOTR and the bible ARE inextricably linked,
they're
> >both fantasy, and, as fiction, The LOTR pisses all over the bible...
>
> But the Bible has less singing.

But it does have more sex and violence.

> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
> Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
>
> "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
> when they do it from religious conviction."
> Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192098 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 20:17
Baronjosefr  
"Matt Ruff" <storytellers [at] worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:gFdrf.187509$qk4.148723 [at] bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> words of truth wrote:
> >
> > Throughout the New Testament we find a shocking simplicity: Christ does
> > not merely teach the truth, He is the truth; He does not merely show us
> > the way, He is the way; He does not merely give us eternal life, He is
> > that life.
>
> He does not merely ask if we want fries with that, he is fries with that.

Let Jesus be your anchor. So when life rocks your boat, throw him overboard.

God has made me an agnostic. Who are you to question Her wisdom.

I am not just an agnostic. Consider me the loyal opposition.

>
> -- M. Ruff
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192099 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 20:18
Malcolm  
"Mike Schilling" <mscottschilling [at] hotmail.com> wrote
>
>>>Other than copyright issues, of course. That's an awfully big chunk to
>>>count as "fair use".
>>
>> Unless that was the author that posted it...which just increases its
>> spamitude.
>
> The author is Peter Kreeft, Ph.D., a professor of philosophy at Boston
> College, and it was a well-written and thoughtful piece. And the post
> itself was a cut-and-paste job from a web page, with not a word added.
> Which feels to me like the poster, unlike Dr. Kreeft, has nothing of his
> own to say.
Words of Truth regularly posts essays to arcrc. They are always on-topic,
always well-written and usually well thought out. They are obviously much
better essays than he could write himself.

I'm sure whether this is netiquette. A few such essays are harmless, but it
has the potential to drown usenet in a sea of quotations.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192101 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 21:25
Douglas Berry  
What's so funny about peace, love and Sean O'Hara
<seanohara [at] gmail.com> posting the following on Sat, 24 Dec 2005
12:00:11 -0500 iin alt.atheism?
>In the Year of the Cock, the Great and Powerful Douglas Berry declared:
>>
>> Tolkien's originasl title for the third volume was "The War of
>> the Ring." He objected to using "The Return of the King" because
>> it was far too religous, and revealed an important plot point
>> that doesn't come up until fairly late in the book (the reforging
>> of Narsil,
>
>Your mind has been corrupted by Jackson. Narsil was reforged in
>Fellowship.

I'll admit it has been years since I actualy read the thing (I'm far
more into hard SF). so that had escaped me.

But still, if I recall correctly, Aragorn was still wishy-washy about
taking up the mantle of King until about halfway through the third
book.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192102 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 21:42
Mike Schilling  
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy [at] mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:qjbrq19fdmjhu6dr69tolqnsaedtk5dbjl [at] 4ax.com...
> What's so funny about peace, love and Sean O'Hara
> <seanohara [at] gmail.com> posting the following on Sat, 24 Dec 2005
> 12:00:11 -0500 iin alt.atheism?
>>In the Year of the Cock, the Great and Powerful Douglas Berry declared:
>>>
>>> Tolkien's originasl title for the third volume was "The War of
>>> the Ring." He objected to using "The Return of the King" because
>>> it was far too religous, and revealed an important plot point
>>> that doesn't come up until fairly late in the book (the reforging
>>> of Narsil,
>>
>>Your mind has been corrupted by Jackson. Narsil was reforged in
>>Fellowship.
>
> I'll admit it has been years since I actualy read the thing (I'm far
> more into hard SF). so that had escaped me.
>
> But still, if I recall correctly, Aragorn was still wishy-washy about
> taking up the mantle of King until about halfway through the third
> book.
>

There was a difficult political dynamic: it had been settled back when the
last king of Gondor died that the kings of Arnor were not heirs to the
throne of Gondor as well. That's when the Stewards begin to rule.
Denethor was already suspicious that Gandalf intended to place Aragorn on
the throne: having that fight while Minas Tirith was under siege was hardly
a good idea. Once Denethor was dead, that issue went away.

We learn in Appendix A, though, that Elrond had told Aragorn long before
that no man less than the king of Arnor and Gondor would wed his daughter,
which leaves little doubt about what Aragorn's goal had been.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192103 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 22:40
Paul Duca  
in article dok6ue$qg$1 [at] nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com, Malcolm at
regniztar [at] btinternet.com wrote on 12/24/05 2:18 PM:

> "Mike Schilling" <mscottschilling [at] hotmail.com> wrote
>>
>>>> Other than copyright issues, of course. That's an awfully big chunk to
>>>> count as "fair use".
>>>
>>> Unless that was the author that posted it...which just increases its
>>> spamitude.
>>
>> The author is Peter Kreeft, Ph.D., a professor of philosophy at Boston
>> College, and it was a well-written and thoughtful piece. And the post
>> itself was a cut-and-paste job from a web page, with not a word added.
>> Which feels to me like the poster, unlike Dr. Kreeft, has nothing of his
>> own to say.
> Words of Truth regularly posts essays to arcrc. They are always on-topic,
> always well-written and usually well thought out, by people we pretend will
> be our pals in our Christian Heaven.
>
>
>
--
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192104 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 23:20
Gene Ward Smith  
Douglas Berry wrote:

> I'll admit it has been years since I actualy read the thing (I'm far
> more into hard SF).

You've found some?
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192105 ] Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 23:16
John Schilling  
In article <1135358363.463430.101980 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Cambias
says...

>JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrich's effort wrote:
>> words of truth wrote:
>> > http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp

>> > The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings

>> Who cares?

>Not the most incisive refutation I've ever seen. Could you expand it?

Who

the fuck

cares?


--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schillin [at] spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-718-0955 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192106 ] So, 25 Dezember 2005 01:00
Christopher Kreuzer  
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy [at] mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
> What's so funny about peace, love and Sean O'Hara
> <seanohara [at] gmail.com> posting the following on Sat, 24 Dec 2005
> 12:00:11 -0500 iin alt.atheism?
>> In the Year of the Cock, the Great and Powerful Douglas Berry
>> declared:
>>>
>>> Tolkien's originasl title for the third volume was "The War of
>>> the Ring." He objected to using "The Return of the King" because
>>> it was far too religous, and revealed an important plot point
>>> that doesn't come up until fairly late in the book (the reforging
>>> of Narsil,
>>
>> Your mind has been corrupted by Jackson. Narsil was reforged in
>> Fellowship.
>
> I'll admit it has been years since I actualy read the thing (I'm far
> more into hard SF). so that had escaped me.
>
> But still, if I recall correctly, Aragorn was still wishy-washy about
> taking up the mantle of King until about halfway through the third
> book.

In LotR Book 2, Chapter 2 (The Council of Elrond), Aragorn made it
pretty clear to Boromir (son of Denethor and heir to the Stewardship of
Gondor) what his (Aragorn's) lineage was:

"And here in the house of Elrond more shall be made clear to you' said
Aragorn, standing up. He cast his sword upon the table that stood before
Elrond, and the blade was in two pieces. 'Here is the Sword that was
Broken!' he said." (The Council of Elrond)

And a few moments later, Aragorn says:

"Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?"
(The Council of Elrond)

Though admittedly, the character-arc of Aragorn throughout the rest of
the book is largely about him coming into his inheritance, and emerging
from the shadows to claim the kingship. That almost accounts for the
lamentable way Aragorn's character was treated in the Jackson film
(wishy-washy Aragorn).

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192107 ] So, 25 Dezember 2005 01:52
dburkhuad  
John Schilling wrote:
> In article <1135358363.463430.101980 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Cambias says...
>
>> JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrich's effort wrote:
>>> words of truth wrote:
>>>>
http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo tr_nov05.asp
>
>>>> The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings
>
>>> Who cares?
>
>> Not the most incisive refutation I've ever seen. Could you expand
>> it?
>
> Who
>
> the fuck
>
> cares?

Aw, you beat me too it.

--
David L. Burkhead "May I be just half the person
mailto:dburkhuad [at] comcast.net my dog thinks I am."
My webcomic Cold Servings
http://coldservings.keenspace.com
Updates Wednesdays
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192111 ] So, 25 Dezember 2005 04:00
whheydt  
In article <dok6ue$qg$1 [at] nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
Malcolm <regniztar [at] btinternet.com> wrote:
>Words of Truth regularly posts essays to arcrc. They are always on-topic,
>always well-written and usually well thought out. They are obviously much
>better essays than he could write himself.
>
>I'm sure whether this is netiquette. A few such essays are harmless, but it
>has the potential to drown usenet in a sea of quotations.

Someone who si on good terms with him might remind him about the contents
copyright law...and (in context for a Christian group) the commandment about
not stealing--someone else's words in those cases.

--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA

My dime, my opinions.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192112 ] So, 25 Dezember 2005 04:50
wdstarr  
In article <Is19oG.449 [at] kithrup.com>,
whheydt [at] kithrup.com (Wilson Heydt) said:

> Someone who [is] on good terms with him might remind him about the
> contents copyright law...and (in context for a Christian group)
> the commandment about not stealing--someone else's words in those
> cases.

Or they might just rip his fingers off and stuff them down his
throat. That'd work too.

--
William December Starr <wdstarr [at] panix.com>
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192113 ] So, 25 Dezember 2005 10:56
Malcolm  
"Wilson Heydt" <whheydt [at] kithrup.com> wrote
>>I'm sure whether this is netiquette. A few such essays are harmless, but
>>it
>>has the potential to drown usenet in a sea of quotations.
>
> Someone who si on good terms with him might remind him about the contents
> copyright law...and (in context for a Christian group) the commandment
> about
> not stealing--someone else's words in those cases.
>
Most of it is polemical stuff and I think the writers are only too happy to
see their writings disseminated for free.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192114 ] So, 25 Dezember 2005 17:51
Mike Schilling  
"Malcolm" <regniztar [at] btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dolqbh$jsk$1 [at] nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> "Wilson Heydt" <whheydt [at] kithrup.com> wrote
>>>I'm sure whether this is netiquette. A few such essays are harmless, but
>>>it
>>>has the potential to drown usenet in a sea of quotations.
>>
>> Someone who si on good terms with him might remind him about the contents
>> copyright law...and (in context for a Christian group) the commandment
>> about
>> not stealing--someone else's words in those cases.
>>
> Most of it is polemical stuff and I think the writers are only too happy
> to see their writings disseminated for free.

It's far better to ask than to assume.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192115 ] So, 25 Dezember 2005 18:33
Douglas Berry  
What's so funny about peace, love and "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith [at] svpal.org> posting the following on 24 Dec 2005 14:20:51
-0800 iin alt.atheism?
>
>Douglas Berry wrote:
>
>> I'll admit it has been years since I actualy read the thing (I'm far
>> more into hard SF).
>
>You've found some?

Oh, yeah. There's been a resurgence in the field. Gregory Benford,
Greg Bear, the late Dr. Robert Forward... some great stuff.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192121 ] Mo, 26 Dezember 2005 11:14
hasatan  
One need look no further than the Silmarrilion to see the Christian and
thus Judaic origins of the work.

it is Anglo Saxon representation of Christian cosmology.

>Who cares?

i don't because i know it is Christian.

but you won't convince many (usually European) people who think they
are neo Heathens
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192160 ] Mi, 28 Dezember 2005 20:06
bc  
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
> One need look no further than the Silmarrilion to see the Christian and
> thus Judaic origins of the work.
>
> it is Anglo Saxon representation of Christian cosmology.
>
> >Who cares?
>
> i don't because i know it is Christian.
>
> but you won't convince many (usually European) people who think they
> are neo Heathens

Here's a quote from Tolkien himself: "the Lord of the Rings is of
course a fundamentally christian work; unconciously so in the
beginning, conciously so in the revision."

This should put to rest any doubts.
Re: The Presence of Christ in The Lord of the Rings [message #192170 ] Do, 29 Dezember 2005 01:25
Christopher Adams  
BC wrote:
> Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
>
>> One need look no further than the Silmarrilion to see the Christian and
>> thus Judaic origins of the work.
>>
>> it is Anglo Saxon representation of Christian cosmology.
>>
>>> Who cares?
>>
>> i don't because i know it is Christian.
>>
>> but you won't convince many (usually European) people who think they
>> are neo Heathens
>
> Here's a quote from Tolkien himself: "the Lord of the Rings is of
> course a fundamentally christian work; unconciously so in the
> beginning, conciously so in the revision."
>
> This should put to rest any doubts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_author

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
-------
The question is whether it's pathological for a dropped egg to fall.
-------
Nothing says gritty fantasy like a whacky leprechaun knifing you in the junk.
-------
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigeclassl ist.html
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatelist.h tml
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