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Science Fiction » alt.fan.starwars » Its no good.....
Its no good..... [message #190708] Sa, 31 Dezember 2005 01:22
M  
Seen ROTS for the 3rd time today and I'm sorry I cannot get my head around
the psychology of Anankins fall to the Dark Side......I mean we have
established he is an ego-centric, spoilt and power hungry person........but
to go so easily and quickly from the start of ROTS to remorselessly killing
younglings et al........there seems to be a hell of alot of back story
missing that GL seems to take for granted we know in order to justify the
characters progression........either that or GL was just to lazy to write a
believable character.......
To me it spoils the prequels.......EP1 and 2 were fine by me......I mean
they werent the OT but there again I'm not 6 years old anymore so I was
never expecting the same WTF reaction......but I loved the idea of seeing a
small boy develope into a great warrior and pilot, to become a hero in his
peers eyes...... and then degenerate into the depths of hell and emerge as
Darth Vader...... a VERY scarey and evil fucker (but later at end ESB and
ROTJ also a tragic one).........but instead I am left feeling unfulfilled
and disappointed at what GL did and what he could've/ should've done ......

I mean had GL had someone like Obi Wan, Yoda or Mace Windu rape/ torture/
kill Padme and that set off Anakins slide......then fair enough........or
that his 'dreams' of Padmes death had become unbearable and reduced him to
twitchy, paranoid neurotic Jedi just about balanced on the edge then fair
enough.......but nothing.......nada....... zero...........

Ah well............

--
M

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
....why, other guards, of course!
Re: Its no good..... [message #190709 ] Sa, 31 Dezember 2005 02:15
Everyperson  
Obviously you've never been in love, and the last time you had contact with
female genitalia was at birth...

Happy New Year!


"M" <spam [at] spamme.com> wrote in message
news:xbktf.70440$vl2.37647 [at] fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Seen ROTS for the 3rd time today and I'm sorry I cannot get my head around
> the psychology of Anankins fall to the Dark Side......I mean we have
> established he is an ego-centric, spoilt and power hungry
> person........but
> to go so easily and quickly from the start of ROTS to remorselessly
> killing
> younglings et al........there seems to be a hell of alot of back story
> missing that GL seems to take for granted we know in order to justify the
> characters progression........either that or GL was just to lazy to write
> a
> believable character.......
> To me it spoils the prequels.......EP1 and 2 were fine by me......I mean
> they werent the OT but there again I'm not 6 years old anymore so I was
> never expecting the same WTF reaction......but I loved the idea of seeing
> a
> small boy develope into a great warrior and pilot, to become a hero in
> his
> peers eyes...... and then degenerate into the depths of hell and emerge as
> Darth Vader...... a VERY scarey and evil fucker (but later at end ESB and
> ROTJ also a tragic one).........but instead I am left feeling unfulfilled
> and disappointed at what GL did and what he could've/ should've done
> ......
>
> I mean had GL had someone like Obi Wan, Yoda or Mace Windu rape/ torture/
> kill Padme and that set off Anakins slide......then fair enough........or
> that his 'dreams' of Padmes death had become unbearable and reduced him to
> twitchy, paranoid neurotic Jedi just about balanced on the edge then fair
> enough.......but nothing.......nada....... zero...........
>
> Ah well............
>
> --
> M
>
> Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
> ...why, other guards, of course!
>
>
Re: Its no good..... [message #190710 ] Sa, 31 Dezember 2005 04:01
Anybody  
In article <xbktf.70440$vl2.37647 [at] fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, "M"
<spam [at] spamme.com> wrote:

> Seen ROTS for the 3rd time today and I'm sorry I cannot get my head around
> the psychology of Anankins fall to the Dark Side......

There's little point in watching Episode III over and over. Anakin's
fall to the Dark Side isn't an instant decision: "Gee, I think I'll be
a bad guy today". :-\

Anakin's fall begins way back in Episode I when he leaves his mother,
it continues in Episode II when she is kidnapped and he murders all the
Sandpeople, (as well as in the Clone Wars cartoon and the novels) and
is only completed in Episode III.

Having said that, Anakin's final turn to the Dark Side doesn't actually
happen until he's told he killed Padmé. At that point he's lost
everything and totally gives up until Luke "rescues" him at the end of
Episode VI. Until that point he's bouncing between the two sides,
confused and being manipuated by Palpatine playing on his fears of
losing Padmé as he did his mother ... which he causes anyway by falling
for Palpatine's ploys.
Re: Its no good..... [message #190712 ] Sa, 31 Dezember 2005 04:38
smontag  
Couldn't have said it better myself M... Agree totally... Really did
spoil everything for me the way Anakin turned like that... Although I
don't think they'd really want to include a rape scene of Padme in
there...
Re: Its no good..... [message #190713 ] Sa, 31 Dezember 2005 04:59
Mike Ward  
"Everyperson" <jf#1 [at] rhcp.com> wrote in
news:zdKdnZaOLbUyRijeRVn-vA [at] comcast.com:

> Obviously you've never been in love, and the last time you had contact
> with female genitalia was at birth...
>
> Happy New Year!
>

Being in love is an understandable motivation for slaughtering children?!
And they say Trek fans are crazy?
Re: Its no good..... [message #190714 ] Sa, 31 Dezember 2005 04:32
OSI  
Anybody wrote:

> Anakin's fall begins way back in Episode I when he leaves his mother,

So... Padme was wrong to think he was a good person?

--
OSI
Re: Its no good..... [message #190715 ] Sa, 31 Dezember 2005 06:37
Anybody  
In article <JZmtf.56914$8d.26082 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com>, OSI
<abuse [at] msn.com> wrote:

> Anybody wrote:
>
> > Anakin's fall begins way back in Episode I when he leaves his mother,
>
> So... Padme was wrong to think he was a good person?

He is a good person, that's almost the whole point of Episode I (and
his redemption in Episode VI). It shows Anakin as a good person, who
due to many circumstances, bad decisions (no all his own) and
manipulation during the prequel movies eventually becomes bad.

People are not born bad. Their environment, upbringing, etc. can turn
some bad.

The problem is that Anakin joined the Jedi far too late. Unlike almost
all the other Jedi who started as babies, Anakin had already formed
attachments to family and Padmé. If Anakin had been found earlier or
had been left on Tatooine, he wouldn't have ever been in the situations
and probably would never turned to the Dark Side.

Padmé wasn't wrong ... Qui-Gon was. Yoda foresaw it to some degree.


In fact, seeing a young Anakin who went around stealing and getting
into fights (part of the reason the Greedo fight was cut) would mean
his turn to the Dark Side would have much less impact - you could
already see he was heading that way anyway.

Of course, ignoring the original trilogy, they could have had a bad
young Anakin who is rescued by Padmé's love for him as many other
movies do ... and is basically what happens in the original trilogy
with Luke rescuing Anakin from the Dark Side.
Re: Its no good..... [message #190717 ] Sa, 31 Dezember 2005 06:49
Solon  
_OSI_ spoke thusly:
> Anybody wrote:
>
>> Anakin's fall begins way back in Episode I when he leaves his mother,
>
> So... Padme was wrong to think he was a good person?

It's not as 'black and white' as him being a bad person, or a good
person. Him having an attachment to his mother, and having to leave her,
was part of the groundwork that laid the potential for him to do bad
things. He had trouble letting go of his mother. That alone wouldn't
make him evil.
--
usenetsolon [at] gmail.com
Firefox 1.5 is out! <http://www.mozilla.com>
Re: Its no good..... [message #190719 ] Sa, 31 Dezember 2005 15:02
seanocity  
Mike Ward wrote:
> "Everyperson" <jf#1 [at] rhcp.com> wrote in
> news:zdKdnZaOLbUyRijeRVn-vA [at] comcast.com:
>
> > Obviously you've never been in love, and the last time you had contact
> > with female genitalia was at birth...
> >
> > Happy New Year!
> >
>
> Being in love is an understandable motivation for slaughtering children?!
> And they say Trek fans are crazy?

Hey, maybe it was Anakin's way of saying "Don't grow up to be like me,
kids!"

With a great emphasis on "Don't grow up."

--
Sean
Re: Its no good..... [message #190726 ] So, 01 Januar 2006 01:10
SilverTabby  
"M" <spam [at] spamme.com> wrote in message
news:xbktf.70440$vl2.37647 [at] fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Seen ROTS for the 3rd time today and I'm sorry I cannot get my head around
> the psychology of Anankins fall to the Dark Side......I mean we have
> established he is an ego-centric, spoilt and power hungry
> person........but
> to go so easily and quickly from the start of ROTS to remorselessly
> killing
> younglings et al........there seems to be a hell of alot of back story
> missing that GL seems to take for granted we know in order to justify the
> characters progression........either that or GL was just to lazy to write
> a
> believable character.......
> To me it spoils the prequels.......EP1 and 2 were fine by me......I mean
> they werent the OT but there again I'm not 6 years old anymore so I was
> never expecting the same WTF reaction......but I loved the idea of seeing
> a
> small boy develope into a great warrior and pilot, to become a hero in
> his
> peers eyes...... and then degenerate into the depths of hell and emerge as
> Darth Vader...... a VERY scarey and evil fucker (but later at end ESB and
> ROTJ also a tragic one).........but instead I am left feeling unfulfilled
> and disappointed at what GL did and what he could've/ should've done
> ......
>
> I mean had GL had someone like Obi Wan, Yoda or Mace Windu rape/ torture/
> kill Padme and that set off Anakins slide......then fair enough........or
> that his 'dreams' of Padmes death had become unbearable and reduced him to
> twitchy, paranoid neurotic Jedi just about balanced on the edge then fair
> enough.......but nothing.......nada....... zero...........
>
> Ah well............
>
> --
> M
>
> Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
> ...why, other guards, of course!
>
>

You should read Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader. You get to see how
Palpalatine manipulated (in his own words) Anakin for all those years.
Re: Its no good..... [message #190727 ] So, 01 Januar 2006 01:11
Todd  
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:01:05 +1300, Anybody
<anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:

>In article <xbktf.70440$vl2.37647 [at] fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, "M"
><spam [at] spamme.com> wrote:
>
>> Seen ROTS for the 3rd time today and I'm sorry I cannot get my head around
>> the psychology of Anankins fall to the Dark Side......
>
>There's little point in watching Episode III over and over. Anakin's
>fall to the Dark Side isn't an instant decision: "Gee, I think I'll be
>a bad guy today". :-\
>
>Anakin's fall begins way back in Episode I when he leaves his mother,
>it continues in Episode II when she is kidnapped and he murders all the
>Sandpeople, (as well as in the Clone Wars cartoon and the novels) and
>is only completed in Episode III.
>
>Having said that, Anakin's final turn to the Dark Side doesn't actually
>happen until he's told he killed Padmé. At that point he's lost
>everything and totally gives up until Luke "rescues" him at the end of
>Episode VI. Until that point he's bouncing between the two sides,
>confused and being manipuated by Palpatine playing on his fears of
>losing Padmé as he did his mother ... which he causes anyway by falling
>for Palpatine's ploys.


His turn to the dark side may not be instant, but his turning his back
on the Jedi is. The Jedi had done nothing to make him believe they
were "evil" or hungry for power. He simply bought a bill of goods
sold by Palpatine. The kid simply isn't very smart or he'd have seen
right through Palpatine's bullshit about "loving democracy." In the
moments after killing Mace, Sidious is talking about the Sith ruling
the galaxy. Hardly democratic.

I agree this was not a well-written scene. For me it lacked impact
because I was saying to myself, "What the fuck? Why would he turn to
the Sith based on this?" It was just too damn quick.

Todd
Re: Its no good..... [message #190729 ] So, 01 Januar 2006 02:46
Mike Ward  
Todd <twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote in
news:h27er1lanbgm6b5jhs9ptik9n0tf98122v [at] 4ax.com:

> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:01:05 +1300, Anybody
> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <xbktf.70440$vl2.37647 [at] fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, "M"
>><spam [at] spamme.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Seen ROTS for the 3rd time today and I'm sorry I cannot get my head
>>> around the psychology of Anankins fall to the Dark Side......
>>
>>There's little point in watching Episode III over and over. Anakin's
>>fall to the Dark Side isn't an instant decision: "Gee, I think I'll be
>>a bad guy today". :-\
>>
>>Anakin's fall begins way back in Episode I when he leaves his mother,
>>it continues in Episode II when she is kidnapped and he murders all
>>the Sandpeople, (as well as in the Clone Wars cartoon and the novels)
>>and is only completed in Episode III.
>>
>>Having said that, Anakin's final turn to the Dark Side doesn't
>>actually happen until he's told he killed Padmé. At that point he's
>>lost everything and totally gives up until Luke "rescues" him at the
>>end of Episode VI. Until that point he's bouncing between the two
>>sides, confused and being manipuated by Palpatine playing on his fears
>>of losing Padmé as he did his mother ... which he causes anyway by
>>falling for Palpatine's ploys.
>
>
> His turn to the dark side may not be instant, but his turning his back
> on the Jedi is. The Jedi had done nothing to make him believe they
> were "evil" or hungry for power. He simply bought a bill of goods
> sold by Palpatine. The kid simply isn't very smart or he'd have seen
> right through Palpatine's bullshit about "loving democracy." In the
> moments after killing Mace, Sidious is talking about the Sith ruling
> the galaxy. Hardly democratic.
>
> I agree this was not a well-written scene. For me it lacked impact
> because I was saying to myself, "What the fuck? Why would he turn to
> the Sith based on this?" It was just too damn quick.
>
> Todd
>

Look how quickly he turns back in ROTJ. Anakin is obviously just extremely
impulsive. That's probably why he's always strangling people over tinest
things.
Re: Its no good..... [message #190731 ] So, 01 Januar 2006 03:40
SpammersDie  
"Todd" <twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:h27er1lanbgm6b5jhs9ptik9n0tf98122v [at] 4ax.com...
> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:01:05 +1300, Anybody
> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <xbktf.70440$vl2.37647 [at] fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, "M"
>><spam [at] spamme.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Seen ROTS for the 3rd time today and I'm sorry I cannot get my head
>>> around
>>> the psychology of Anankins fall to the Dark Side......
>>
>>There's little point in watching Episode III over and over. Anakin's
>>fall to the Dark Side isn't an instant decision: "Gee, I think I'll be
>>a bad guy today". :-\
>>
>>Anakin's fall begins way back in Episode I when he leaves his mother,
>>it continues in Episode II when she is kidnapped and he murders all the
>>Sandpeople, (as well as in the Clone Wars cartoon and the novels) and
>>is only completed in Episode III.
>>
>>Having said that, Anakin's final turn to the Dark Side doesn't actually
>>happen until he's told he killed Padmé. At that point he's lost
>>everything and totally gives up until Luke "rescues" him at the end of
>>Episode VI. Until that point he's bouncing between the two sides,
>>confused and being manipuated by Palpatine playing on his fears of
>>losing Padmé as he did his mother ... which he causes anyway by falling
>>for Palpatine's ploys.
>
>
> His turn to the dark side may not be instant, but his turning his back
> on the Jedi is. The Jedi had done nothing to make him believe they
> were "evil" or hungry for power. He simply bought a bill of goods
> sold by Palpatine. The kid simply isn't very smart or he'd have seen
> right through Palpatine's bullshit about "loving democracy." In the
> moments after killing Mace, Sidious is talking about the Sith ruling
> the galaxy. Hardly democratic.
>
> I agree this was not a well-written scene. For me it lacked impact
> because I was saying to myself, "What the fuck? Why would he turn to
> the Sith based on this?" It was just too damn quick.

The way I see it, his bridges were burned. He's already persona non grata
with the Jedi and now he's been directly instrumental in the death of Windu
at the hands of the Chancellor. Once the Jedi find out, there gonna make him
stand in the corner for a *long* time and his chances of doing anything
about Padme's pending demise would fall to nil.

So he might as well play along with the Chancellor. That's the only other
fork in the road, at least in his limited imagination, and that's the one
that keeps more options open.

He knows now that the Chancellor doesn't really intend to run a democratic
administration but FFS, he doesn't give a shit about that right now. Padme
is at the top of his agenda. Once that issue is addressed, he can always get
around to aggressively impeaching the Chancellor and putting a wise
benevolent leader back in charge of the Republic (and gosh, he just happens
to know a real swell guy who'd be perfect for the job.)

And if all the Jedi are wiped out in the meantime... well gosh darn it, it's
their own fault. They should have helped him with Padme's problem.
Re: Its no good..... [message #190732 ] So, 01 Januar 2006 03:42
Anybody  
In article <h27er1lanbgm6b5jhs9ptik9n0tf98122v [at] 4ax.com>, Todd
<twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:01:05 +1300, Anybody
> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <xbktf.70440$vl2.37647 [at] fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, "M"
> ><spam [at] spamme.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Seen ROTS for the 3rd time today and I'm sorry I cannot get my head around
> >> the psychology of Anankins fall to the Dark Side......
> >
> >There's little point in watching Episode III over and over. Anakin's
> >fall to the Dark Side isn't an instant decision: "Gee, I think I'll be
> >a bad guy today". :-\
> >
> >Anakin's fall begins way back in Episode I when he leaves his mother,
> >it continues in Episode II when she is kidnapped and he murders all the
> >Sandpeople, (as well as in the Clone Wars cartoon and the novels) and
> >is only completed in Episode III.
> >
> >Having said that, Anakin's final turn to the Dark Side doesn't actually
> >happen until he's told he killed Padmé. At that point he's lost
> >everything and totally gives up until Luke "rescues" him at the end of
> >Episode VI. Until that point he's bouncing between the two sides,
> >confused and being manipuated by Palpatine playing on his fears of
> >losing Padmé as he did his mother ... which he causes anyway by falling
> >for Palpatine's ploys.
>
> His turn to the dark side may not be instant, but his turning his back
> on the Jedi is. The Jedi had done nothing to make him believe they
> were "evil" or hungry for power. He simply bought a bill of goods
> sold by Palpatine. The kid simply isn't very smart or he'd have seen
> right through Palpatine's bullshit about "loving democracy." In the
> moments after killing Mace, Sidious is talking about the Sith ruling
> the galaxy. Hardly democratic.
>
> I agree this was not a well-written scene. For me it lacked impact
> because I was saying to myself, "What the fuck? Why would he turn to
> the Sith based on this?" It was just too damn quick.

Anakin was already very annoyed with the Jedi long before that scene
.... long before Episode III even started. He's been chaffing under
their rules and regulations for a long time, he thinks Obi-Wan and the
Council are holding him back from being the Jedi he could be. He's also
scared witless of losing Padmé and not being able to save her, just
like he couldn't save his mother.

Anakin's turn to the Dark Side or even siding with Palpatine in general
does NOT happen in one scene or one movie. It's a long process over
time.
Re: Its no good..... [message #190736 ] So, 01 Januar 2006 07:45
Todd  
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:42:16 +1300, Anybody
<anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:

>In article <h27er1lanbgm6b5jhs9ptik9n0tf98122v [at] 4ax.com>, Todd
><twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:01:05 +1300, Anybody
>> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <xbktf.70440$vl2.37647 [at] fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, "M"
>> ><spam [at] spamme.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Seen ROTS for the 3rd time today and I'm sorry I cannot get my head around
>> >> the psychology of Anankins fall to the Dark Side......
>> >
>> >There's little point in watching Episode III over and over. Anakin's
>> >fall to the Dark Side isn't an instant decision: "Gee, I think I'll be
>> >a bad guy today". :-\
>> >
>> >Anakin's fall begins way back in Episode I when he leaves his mother,
>> >it continues in Episode II when she is kidnapped and he murders all the
>> >Sandpeople, (as well as in the Clone Wars cartoon and the novels) and
>> >is only completed in Episode III.
>> >
>> >Having said that, Anakin's final turn to the Dark Side doesn't actually
>> >happen until he's told he killed Padmé. At that point he's lost
>> >everything and totally gives up until Luke "rescues" him at the end of
>> >Episode VI. Until that point he's bouncing between the two sides,
>> >confused and being manipuated by Palpatine playing on his fears of
>> >losing Padmé as he did his mother ... which he causes anyway by falling
>> >for Palpatine's ploys.
>>
>> His turn to the dark side may not be instant, but his turning his back
>> on the Jedi is. The Jedi had done nothing to make him believe they
>> were "evil" or hungry for power. He simply bought a bill of goods
>> sold by Palpatine. The kid simply isn't very smart or he'd have seen
>> right through Palpatine's bullshit about "loving democracy." In the
>> moments after killing Mace, Sidious is talking about the Sith ruling
>> the galaxy. Hardly democratic.
>>
>> I agree this was not a well-written scene. For me it lacked impact
>> because I was saying to myself, "What the fuck? Why would he turn to
>> the Sith based on this?" It was just too damn quick.
>
>Anakin was already very annoyed with the Jedi long before that scene
>... long before Episode III even started. He's been chaffing under
>their rules and regulations for a long time, he thinks Obi-Wan and the
>Council are holding him back from being the Jedi he could be. He's also
>scared witless of losing Padmé and not being able to save her, just
>like he couldn't save his mother.
>
>Anakin's turn to the Dark Side or even siding with Palpatine in general
>does NOT happen in one scene or one movie. It's a long process over
>time.


One minute Anakin is lamenting his actions after helping to kill Mace,
the next he is devoting himself to Palpatine's teachings. If that
isn't quick I don't know what is. I just didn't buy it.

Todd
Re: Its no good..... [message #190737 ] So, 01 Januar 2006 07:46
Todd  
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:10:31 -0600, "SilverTabby"
<SilverTabby [at] home.com> wrote:


>>
>
>You should read Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader. You get to see how
>Palpalatine manipulated (in his own words) Anakin for all those years.
>


I enjoyed that novel. You get more of an inside look at Palpatine's
machinations.

Todd
Re: Its no good..... [message #190739 ] So, 01 Januar 2006 10:00
frenchy  
<<<Look how quickly he turns back in ROTJ.>>

Heh, never thought of that, a great point. People seem to find it easy
to believe Vader at his evilest turning into an instant good guy, but
not the other way around. Probably just a lot of human nature involved
there, we like bad guys turning good better. Not that the good to bad
conversion was anywhere this instant, it was stretched across the three
prequels, though it did have a similarly quick final 'switch' to the
dark side in Palpy's office. To be fair, Vader's switch to good was
also not totally instant... there were a few silent moments in ROTJ
where he's standing there by himself obviously contemplating about Luke.
Re: Its no good..... [message #190741 ] So, 01 Januar 2006 15:02
Mike Ward  
"frenchy" <mf101723 [at] msn.com> wrote in news:1136106001.727849.155980
[at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> <<<Look how quickly he turns back in ROTJ.>>
>
> Heh, never thought of that, a great point. People seem to find it easy
> to believe Vader at his evilest turning into an instant good guy, but
> not the other way around. Probably just a lot of human nature involved
> there, we like bad guys turning good better. Not that the good to bad
> conversion was anywhere this instant, it was stretched across the three
> prequels, though it did have a similarly quick final 'switch' to the
> dark side in Palpy's office. To be fair, Vader's switch to good was
> also not totally instant... there were a few silent moments in ROTJ
> where he's standing there by himself obviously contemplating about Luke.
>
>

ROTJ didn't bother me as a kid, but now I find Vader's conversion back to
the good side completely unconvincing. Not only is it very quick, but while
it does contain a measure of self sacrifice there's a very selfish side to
it as well. In the end he get's himself killed saving his own son. Vader
seems perfectly content to stand beside the Emperor while he slaughters
millions, but when it's Vader's son whose being killed he suddenly cares.
That's not exactly all that noble when you think about it. And as he's
dying, what's Vader's No. 1 concern: what Leia thinks about him, "Tell your
sister you were right about me." Please, how about a little repentance, how
about just a swidge of regret for all the children he's slaughtered.

Mike
Re: Its no good..... [message #190743 ] So, 01 Januar 2006 22:13
JGordon452  
No, Qui-Gon was not wrong....it was what the Jedi had become by this
point that was "wrong". Inflexible, and emotionally distant, the Jedi
were too "dogmatic" about their code of non-attachment. At the end of
Episode 3, it's Obi-Wan and Yoda who are the ones taking lessons from
Qui-Gon, not vice-versa. If Qui-Gon had survived Episode I, and
trained Anakin outside the stifling atmosphere of the Jedi Temple, it's
entirely possible that the turn would never have occurred. I could see
Qui-Gon accompanying Anakin on a trip back to Tattoine to help his
mother when the dreams first started.

Think about it. No one from the Jedi sits down with Anakin, and talks
to him like a person about his personal problems. They are always
lecturing him in abstracts, telling him to suppress his feelings, or
calling him untrustworthy behind his back. In particular, Mace is a
real dick towards Anakin. As a result, Anakin has no one in the order
he can really talk to about his problems, for fear of being expelled.
I guess this is why Lucas said that Episode 3 would make people view
the whole series differently. The Jedi order was _not_ the infallible
paragon of good that people thought they were before the prequels.
While the Jedi themselves were good, the methods used, and policies
followed, by the order at large were unyielding and inadequate for
dealing with the nature of feelings.

Of course, the Jedi weren't bad guys. In the end, Palpatine turned out
to be the true bad guy, for manipulating everybody the way he did. But
the intractable nature of the Jedi was another unwitting path to the
Emperor's victory.
Re: Its no good..... [message #190745 ] So, 01 Januar 2006 23:12
Anybody  
In article <efuer15phkrm25ghgt1j3v9vftbrb780br [at] 4ax.com>, Todd
<twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:42:16 +1300, Anybody
> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <h27er1lanbgm6b5jhs9ptik9n0tf98122v [at] 4ax.com>, Todd
> ><twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:01:05 +1300, Anybody
> >> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <xbktf.70440$vl2.37647 [at] fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, "M"
> >> ><spam [at] spamme.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Seen ROTS for the 3rd time today and I'm sorry I cannot get my head
> >> >> around
> >> >> the psychology of Anankins fall to the Dark Side......
> >> >
> >> >There's little point in watching Episode III over and over. Anakin's
> >> >fall to the Dark Side isn't an instant decision: "Gee, I think I'll be
> >> >a bad guy today". :-\
> >> >
> >> >Anakin's fall begins way back in Episode I when he leaves his mother,
> >> >it continues in Episode II when she is kidnapped and he murders all the
> >> >Sandpeople, (as well as in the Clone Wars cartoon and the novels) and
> >> >is only completed in Episode III.
> >> >
> >> >Having said that, Anakin's final turn to the Dark Side doesn't actually
> >> >happen until he's told he killed Padmé. At that point he's lost
> >> >everything and totally gives up until Luke "rescues" him at the end of
> >> >Episode VI. Until that point he's bouncing between the two sides,
> >> >confused and being manipuated by Palpatine playing on his fears of
> >> >losing Padmé as he did his mother ... which he causes anyway by falling
> >> >for Palpatine's ploys.
> >>
> >> His turn to the dark side may not be instant, but his turning his back
> >> on the Jedi is. The Jedi had done nothing to make him believe they
> >> were "evil" or hungry for power. He simply bought a bill of goods
> >> sold by Palpatine. The kid simply isn't very smart or he'd have seen
> >> right through Palpatine's bullshit about "loving democracy." In the
> >> moments after killing Mace, Sidious is talking about the Sith ruling
> >> the galaxy. Hardly democratic.
> >>
> >> I agree this was not a well-written scene. For me it lacked impact
> >> because I was saying to myself, "What the fuck? Why would he turn to
> >> the Sith based on this?" It was just too damn quick.
> >
> >Anakin was already very annoyed with the Jedi long before that scene
> >... long before Episode III even started. He's been chaffing under
> >their rules and regulations for a long time, he thinks Obi-Wan and the
> >Council are holding him back from being the Jedi he could be. He's also
> >scared witless of losing Padmé and not being able to save her, just
> >like he couldn't save his mother.
> >
> >Anakin's turn to the Dark Side or even siding with Palpatine in general
> >does NOT happen in one scene or one movie. It's a long process over
> >time.
>
> One minute Anakin is lamenting his actions after helping to kill Mace,
> the next he is devoting himself to Palpatine's teachings. If that
> isn't quick I don't know what is. I just didn't buy it.

By that point Anakin is way past controlling anything. He's extremely
confused, upset and unstable ... and very easily manipulated by
Palaptine.
Re: Its no good..... [message #190746 ] Mo, 02 Januar 2006 02:19
Todd  
On 1 Jan 2006 01:00:01 -0800, "frenchy" <mf101723 [at] msn.com> wrote:

><<<Look how quickly he turns back in ROTJ.>>
>
>Heh, never thought of that, a great point. People seem to find it easy
>to believe Vader at his evilest turning into an instant good guy, but
>not the other way around. Probably just a lot of human nature involved
>there, we like bad guys turning good better. Not that the good to bad
>conversion was anywhere this instant, it was stretched across the three
>prequels, though it did have a similarly quick final 'switch' to the
>dark side in Palpy's office. To be fair, Vader's switch to good was
>also not totally instant... there were a few silent moments in ROTJ
>where he's standing there by himself obviously contemplating about Luke.


The impetus for his turning back in ROTJ was his watching his child
being murdered by Palpatine. Though he claims his love for Padme is
what drove him in ROTS, his final decision comes after killing Mace,
something he seemed to regret for a fleeting moment. It just didn't
carry the same kind of weight for me that his decision in ROTJ did.

Todd
Re: Its no good..... [message #190747 ] Mo, 02 Januar 2006 02:21
Todd  
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 14:02:48 GMT, Mike Ward <m [at] d.w> wrote:

>"frenchy" <mf101723 [at] msn.com> wrote in news:1136106001.727849.155980
> [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
>> <<<Look how quickly he turns back in ROTJ.>>
>>
>> Heh, never thought of that, a great point. People seem to find it easy
>> to believe Vader at his evilest turning into an instant good guy, but
>> not the other way around. Probably just a lot of human nature involved
>> there, we like bad guys turning good better. Not that the good to bad
>> conversion was anywhere this instant, it was stretched across the three
>> prequels, though it did have a similarly quick final 'switch' to the
>> dark side in Palpy's office. To be fair, Vader's switch to good was
>> also not totally instant... there were a few silent moments in ROTJ
>> where he's standing there by himself obviously contemplating about Luke.
>>
>>
>
>ROTJ didn't bother me as a kid, but now I find Vader's conversion back to
>the good side completely unconvincing. Not only is it very quick, but while
>it does contain a measure of self sacrifice there's a very selfish side to
>it as well. In the end he get's himself killed saving his own son. Vader
>seems perfectly content to stand beside the Emperor while he slaughters
>millions, but when it's Vader's son whose being killed he suddenly cares.
>That's not exactly all that noble when you think about it. And as he's
>dying, what's Vader's No. 1 concern: what Leia thinks about him, "Tell your
>sister you were right about me." Please, how about a little repentance, how
>about just a swidge of regret for all the children he's slaughtered.
>
>Mike


I found that much more convincing than his decision in ROTS. It was
watching his own child being murdered that made him realize the level
of Palpatine's evil. I agree that some level of remorse was
warranted, but it's a two-hour movie and you can't have everything.
And GL was never big on depth of his characters.

Todd
Re: Its no good..... [message #190749 ] Mo, 02 Januar 2006 03:23
Chris Lansdell  
Todd , your post to alt.fan.starwars is almost better than a suggestion
to SIGN CARL ENGLISH!

> His turn to the dark side may not be instant, but his turning his back
> on the Jedi is. The Jedi had done nothing to make him believe they
> were "evil" or hungry for power. He simply bought a bill of goods
> sold by Palpatine. The kid simply isn't very smart or he'd have seen
> right through Palpatine's bullshit about "loving democracy." In the
> moments after killing Mace, Sidious is talking about the Sith ruling
> the galaxy. Hardly democratic.
>
> I agree this was not a well-written scene. For me it lacked impact
> because I was saying to myself, "What the fuck? Why would he turn to
> the Sith based on this?" It was just too damn quick.
>
My take is this:

When Anakin hears about a way to save his wife from the death he has
foreseen, his interest in other sources of knowledge and power (both of
which he hungers for) is piqued. He is still loyal to the order, as is
shown by his reporting to Mace Windu about his suspicions of Palpatine
as a Sith Lord. However, he is then torn between wanting to eradicate
evil, and wanting to save his wife. It is made even harder by Mace
refusing to allow Anakin to accompany him. Anakin decides to go along to
make sure that justice is done, but when he sees a struggle he becomes
scared that Palpatine will die before he can tell Anakin the secret.
When Mace appears to have the upper hand (it is open to debate if
Palpatine would have let Windu strike the killing blow), Anakin tries to
prevent summary execution, which to his mind is of the dark side. When
Windu doesn't listen, Anakin takes matters into his own hands (bad
choice of words...). Only when he sees that he was wrong and that
Palpatine was pure evil does he realise that he has no choice now but to
follow Palpatine. If he tried to fight Palpatine, he would either kill
him and lose the secret, or lose and die. If he went back to the Jedi,
Palpatine could have attacked him from behind. Even if he made it back,
he'd be excommunicated from the order for attacking Windu and causing
his death, and Palpatine would be free. There was nothing else he could
have done at that point.
Re: Its no good..... [message #190754 ] Mo, 02 Januar 2006 05:52
Solon  
_Todd_ spoke thusly on 01/01/2006 1:45 AM:
> One minute Anakin is lamenting his actions after helping to kill Mace,
> the next he is devoting himself to Palpatine's teachings. If that
> isn't quick I don't know what is. I just didn't buy it.

He was also crying during and after killing the separatist leaders. He
killed an entire tribe of Sand People out of hate, before going to save
Obi-wan. His transition did not happen at one moment. It's not like
flicking a switch. You're thinking in absolutes. <gasp> I my God, you're
a Sith! :-)
--
usenetsolon [at] gmail.com
Firefox 1.5 is out! <http://www.mozilla.com>
Re: Its no good..... [message #190761 ] Di, 03 Januar 2006 01:06
Todd  
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 23:52:10 -0500, Solon <usenetsolon [at] gmail.com>
wrote:

>_Todd_ spoke thusly on 01/01/2006 1:45 AM:
>> One minute Anakin is lamenting his actions after helping to kill Mace,
>> the next he is devoting himself to Palpatine's teachings. If that
>> isn't quick I don't know what is. I just didn't buy it.
>
>He was also crying during and after killing the separatist leaders. He
>killed an entire tribe of Sand People out of hate, before going to save
>Obi-wan. His transition did not happen at one moment. It's not like
>flicking a switch. You're thinking in absolutes. <gasp> I my God, you're
>a Sith! :-)


Use my knowledge. I beg you!

Todd
Re: Its no good..... [message #190762 ] Di, 03 Januar 2006 01:12
Todd  
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 02:23:02 GMT, Chris Lansdell
<chris.lansdell [at] nl.SIGNCARLENGLISH.rogers.com> wrote:

>Todd , your post to alt.fan.starwars is almost better than a suggestion
>to SIGN CARL ENGLISH!
>
>> His turn to the dark side may not be instant, but his turning his back
>> on the Jedi is. The Jedi had done nothing to make him believe they
>> were "evil" or hungry for power. He simply bought a bill of goods
>> sold by Palpatine. The kid simply isn't very smart or he'd have seen
>> right through Palpatine's bullshit about "loving democracy." In the
>> moments after killing Mace, Sidious is talking about the Sith ruling
>> the galaxy. Hardly democratic.
>>
>> I agree this was not a well-written scene. For me it lacked impact
>> because I was saying to myself, "What the fuck? Why would he turn to
>> the Sith based on this?" It was just too damn quick.
>>
>My take is this:
>
>When Anakin hears about a way to save his wife from the death he has
>foreseen, his interest in other sources of knowledge and power (both of
>which he hungers for) is piqued. He is still loyal to the order, as is
>shown by his reporting to Mace Windu about his suspicions of Palpatine
>as a Sith Lord. However, he is then torn between wanting to eradicate
>evil, and wanting to save his wife. It is made even harder by Mace
>refusing to allow Anakin to accompany him. Anakin decides to go along to
>make sure that justice is done, but when he sees a struggle he becomes
>scared that Palpatine will die before he can tell Anakin the secret.
>When Mace appears to have the upper hand (it is open to debate if
>Palpatine would have let Windu strike the killing blow), Anakin tries to
>prevent summary execution, which to his mind is of the dark side. When
>Windu doesn't listen, Anakin takes matters into his own hands (bad
>choice of words...). Only when he sees that he was wrong and that
>Palpatine was pure evil does he realise that he has no choice now but to
>follow Palpatine. If he tried to fight Palpatine, he would either kill
>him and lose the secret, or lose and die. If he went back to the Jedi,
>Palpatine could have attacked him from behind. Even if he made it back,
>he'd be excommunicated from the order for attacking Windu and causing
>his death, and Palpatine would be free. There was nothing else he could
>have done at that point.


He could have attacked Palpatine himself after Mace's death and really
let his anger show. Then he would have been beaten down by Palpatine,
both physically and emotionally, before deciding to join him. This
would have made more sense to me and given even greater weight to
Palpatine's battle with Yoda.

Btw, I think Mace would have taken Palpatine if Anakin hadn't
intervened. Palpatine shows weakness at several points, such as when
he is using Force lightning on Yoda. He starts out strong but when he
looks in Yoda's eyes he begins to show fear and weakness. Plus,
Anakin wasn't there to save him so it wasn't an act.

And why couldn't he Force flip himself back onto the platform instead
of hanging there helplessly and whining like a baby? I found that
amusing.

Todd
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