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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184332] Di, 06 Dezember 2005 10:01
Christopher Kreuzer  
Chris Kern <chriskern99 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

> 1. Summary
>
> This chapter is divided into two parts. The first one tells of Aule's
> creation of the Dwarves. He created the Dwarves desiring the coming
> of the Children of Iluvatar.

"...greatly did Aule desire the coming of the Children, to have learners
to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts..."

We later hear of Aule instructing the Noldor in Aman. I wonder if Aule
also went off to Middle-earth to instruct the Dwarves when they awoke?

> But as he was instructing the Dwarves in speech

I had forgotten that the Dwarven speech came directly from Aule. Does
Tolkien go into more detail about this anywhere else? Or are we to
assume that when Iluvatar gave the dwarves life that they obtained the
power of speech for themselves?

> Iluvatar asked him what he was doing.

Does this direct intervention of Iluvatar here, giving a little sermon,
remind anyone of the God of the Old Testament? Like the little
conversations he had with Abraham. And Abraham being about to kill his
son (I think) before God intervenes? I can't remember Abraham's
response, but is that in any way similar to the response of Aule?

> Iluvatar said that the
> Dwarves had no life in them and just followed Aule's commands, and
> wonders if that is Aule's desire -- to lord over beings of no free
> will.

This sounds a lot like Melkor...

<snip>

> Iluvatar tells Aule that he has given the Dwarves life -- but he puts
> a sleep on them so that Aule will not be rewarded for his impatience,
> and so that they will not appear before the Elves.

Iluvatar also says he will not amend the work of Aule. He seems to agree
with Aule that amendment is the right word. Which seems a bit harsh on
the dwarves. Would give them an inferiority complex if they knew about
all this. I bet _their_ legends tell a different story - probably about
the creation of the *beautiful* and perfect fathers of the dwarves.

<snip>

> Yavanna hopes that the
> Eagles will dwell in her tall trees, but Manwe says that only the
> "trees of Aule" will be large enough.

I get the impression that Manwe only became aware of the Eagle part of
the song when he went into that trance. Does anyone get the impression
that he nicked Yavanna's idea and claimed the Eagles for himself? :-)

And remember that the idea of the eagles has already been mentioned in
the first chapter 'Of the Beginning of Days': "Spirits in the shape of
hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls..."

Are we to assume that chapter one gave us a little preview of the
eagles, and that this chapter is filling in the details of how they came
to be?

I also get the impression of one-up-manship among the Valar when Manwe,
Varda and Aule seem to jostle among each other for position and power:

Yavanna: "High shall climb the trees of Kementari..."

"[Manwe] stood to such a height that his voice came down to Yavanna as
from the paths of the winds."

Manwe: "Nay, only the trees of Aule will be tall enough. In the
mountains the Eagles shall house"

I definitely get a sense of powerplay going on here. But surely the
Valar aren't like that? :-) It must just be our human frailties being
projected on to the angelic powers.

> Yavanna goes back to Aule and tells him that his children should
> beware the forest. "Nonetheless they will have need of wood," he
> replies, and goes back to his smithing.

I do feel a bit sorry for Yavanna here, as she has been corrected by
Manwe, and then Aule goes and rebuffs her! It seems that, despite the
Ents, the olvar do have rather a raw deal of it. And in the end, Man
comes to dominate both the kelvar and olvar.

<snip>

> Well, I hope people can pick out more points of discussion in the
> material above -- sorry I spent so much time on the history and
> textual sources but that's my primary interest in the Silmarillion

I too find this sort of discussion of history and textual sources
interesting. Not that I know enough about it, but thanks for providing
it.

> maybe one of the other members can step up and suggest some areas of
> discussion.

I liked the word 'wert' used here, where Yavanna talks to Manwe:

"For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and
poured out the rains..."

I presume "thou wert" is ye olde English way of saying "you were".

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184496 ] Di, 13 Dezember 2005 21:39
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:9sclf.3472$iz3.2737 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> Chris Kern <chriskern99 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>>

I'll reinstate bits of Chris' post here and there, where I wish to
comment upon them.

<snip>

>> Iluvatar said that the Dwarves had no life in them and just
>> followed Aule's commands, and wonders if that is Aule's desire
>> -- to lord over beings of no free will.
>
> This sounds a lot like Melkor...

And invokes the many considerations back and forth about the question
of the Orcs -- in particular about whether they had fear or not . . .

<snip>

>> A discussion then follows of the afterlife of Dwarves, who are
>> supposed to rebuild Arda after the Last Battle (it is curious that
>> CT left this reference to the Dagor Dagorath in the text when he
>> excised the other ones.) Apparently there is some sort of
>> reincarnation for the fathers of Dwarves, who "live again in their
>> own kin"

We see this in LotR in the appendix on the Dwarves -- in particular
the many Durins: '[...], and five times an heir was born in his House
so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin. He was
indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned; for
they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and
their fate in the world.'

I've always been very fascinated by the little we are told about the
Dwarves here and elsewhere, in particular because it is written with
some ambiguity -- we never really know whether the Dwarves are
correct in their 'strange tales and beliefs' or whether they are
mistaken about themselves.

>> (although this passage was written before Tolkien rejected the
>> Elves' rebirth in their children).

And in the end this belief is ambiguously canonised in the LotR
appendix ;-)

>> Yavanna goes to Manwe, asking if the Children will have dominion
>> over her creations. Manwe replies that it is so, and Yavanna is
>> sorrowed that when Melkor has already corrupted so much, that
>> others will have dominion over what is hers. Manwe, after
>> thinking on the Music again (and falling into a trance), tells
>> Yavanna that Eru has decreed that when the Children awake, some
>> spirits will enter the trees to protect them.

It is important to note that this is not some new decree by Eru --
not something he invents to placate Yavanna, but rather he confirms
her claim that /she/ invented the Ents in the Music and he fills in a
few details (when: 'When the Children awake, then the thought of
Yavanna will awake also' and how: '[...] it will summon spirits from
afar, and they will go among the /kelvar/ and the /olvar/, and some
will dwell therein, [...].')

I also think that Manwë's reproof, 'But why dost thou ask, for thou
hadst no need of the teaching of Aulë?' is interesting. Why does
Yavanna go to Manwë? She answers it herself, of course, but then we
might ask, 'why now?'

The new term in the equation is of course the Dwarves. She had
resigned herself to the dominion of Elves and Men over her work, but
now her wayward husband has been blessed by Eru and has created a new
sentient species who will need even more wood (she knows her husband,
after all).

In this moment of chagrin it seems that Yavanna suddenly remembers
her thought in the Ainulindalë, and she goes to Manwë to have it
confirmed. I found the rebuke from Eru misplaced -- at least as I
read it, Yavanna didn't question His memory of the Music, but her own
(though perhaps Eru is implicitly telling her to trust her memory).

>> These are the Ents, the "shepherds of the trees" (although the
>> name "ent" does not appear in the chapter).

This causes me to raise again, and more appropriately placed, the
inconsistency between the awakening of the Ents in this chapter and
Gandalf's riddle to Théoden in LotR, which dates the awakening of the
Ents 'ere elf sang or hammer rang, | Ere iron was found or tree was
hown, | When young was mountain under moon; [...].'

This is particularly interesting in the light of your information
about the source for this part of the chapter, because both now
definitely belong to a Round World mythological background.

>> Yavanna hopes that the Eagles will dwell in her tall trees,
>> but Manwe says that only the "trees of Aule" will be large
>> enough.
>
> I get the impression that Manwe only became aware of the Eagle
> part of the song when he went into that trance.

I agree -- it seems that he only realises this with the renewal of
his perception of Music and Vision.

> Does anyone get the impression that he nicked Yavanna's idea
> and claimed the Eagles for himself? :-)

LOL!

Not quite, but almost. 'Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so
that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the
clouds?' he asked Yavanna, and yet, when the Eagles came to be
(apparently, at least according to this, at the awakening of the
Elves), he took them for his own, rather than acknowledging them as
the meeting of his thought with Yavanna's.

> And remember that the idea of the eagles has already been
> mentioned in the first chapter 'Of the Beginning of Days':
> "Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from
> his halls..."

I think we're here seeing one of the results of the patchwork that is
the published Silmarillion. Manwë has long been associated with the
Eagles (I don't know exactly when they entered the mythos), but in
the text that is the source for this part of the chapter, Tolkien
gives an explanation for the existence of the Eagles without
consideration of whether it fits with other texts chronologically.

He may have pleased to find a solution to a question that bothered
him, as can be seen of his ponderings regarding the Orcs in Myths
Transformed where he also mentions the Eagles.

<snip>

> I definitely get a sense of powerplay going on here. But surely
> the Valar aren't like that? :-) It must just be our human
> frailties being projected on to the angelic powers.

Without comparison in other respects, this is one of the aspects that
have always attracted me to the old Norse mythology, as well as the
Greek and Roman: the very human weaknesses and faults of these gods.
They may be more powerful than normal humans, but they are not in the
least better than normal humans morally. That gives to the myths and
legends a certain charm, some of which is retained in Tolkien's
works, though the angelic aspect of the Valar obviously has protected
them against some of the least admirable faults (theirs being mostly
the fault of good intentions gone wrong).

Given the list of mythologies Tolkien lists in letter #131 as
examples of what he felt the English lacked, I cannot help but wonder
if not he was conscious about this aspect; that the people for whom
the mythology has to work must be able to reflect themselves in the
mythology (one doesn't have to believe in the religion or the myths
in order for it to work -- the Norse mythology has been extremely
successful the last two-hundred years due to smart re-invention that
has allowed modern people to reflect themselves in the mythological
characters).

>> Yavanna goes back to Aule and tells him that his children should
>> beware the forest. "Nonetheless they will have need of wood," he
>> replies, and goes back to his smithing.

I am crazy about that comment from Aulë -- there's also an element of
'E pur si muove' about it (regardless of when Galilei said it, it's a
great story <G>). The mrs may have been to the big guy to ensure some
protection for her trees -- but the Dwarves are nevertheless going to
need wood, and they're going to get it ;-)

> I do feel a bit sorry for Yavanna here, as she has been corrected
> by Manwe, and then Aule goes and rebuffs her!

Well, she's the one who ran to daddy ;-)

I can't help finding Yavanna's role in this a little amusing -- there
is something a little whinging about the way she runs to Manwë once
she learns that there's a new player. She must also have known, at
least it seems to have been common knowledge among the Valar, that
Men would eventually have sole dominion of Middle-earth, and what the
Dwarves did in the meantime was not going to affect things all that
much in the long run.

> It seems that, despite the Ents, the olvar do have rather a raw
> deal of it. And in the end, Man comes to dominate both the kelvar
> and olvar.

I keep reading it as kevlar ;-)

<snip>

>> - Why was the enmity between the Dwarves and the Elves so
>> important to Tolkien? It seems to be introduced here by Iluvatar
>> without any real explanation, although it goes back to the Book of
>> Lost Tales.

For one thing the sacking of Doriath, Thingol's death and the
subsequent deaths of Beren and Lúthien seems to be tied to this
enmity, and the whole story-cycle surrounding all this -- including
Túrin -- was so well established that changing the role of the
Dwarves too drastically would cause an upheaval which, in some ways,
would be greater than the Round World version.

It would also seem that his Dwarves are derived rather closely from
Norse mythology (I know the naming of the Dwarves in the Hobbit
wasn't intended to belong to Middle-earth, but it might still be
indicative of the way Tolkien thought about Dwarves at that time),
where the Dwarves are generally free agents who lend their services
to both gods and giants, and who enjoy cheating the gods a bit.

>> Well, I hope people can pick out more points of discussion in the
>> material above -- sorry I spent so much time on the history and
>> textual sources but that's my primary interest in the
>> Silmarillion
>
> I too find this sort of discussion of history and textual sources
> interesting. Not that I know enough about it, but thanks for
> providing it.

I've lost count, but I believe I'll be 'seventhing' this -- or
something ;-)

I am only beginning to discover the wealth and complexity hidden in
the textual history, and I am grateful that we have people here
providing overviews in these discussions, as that makes it much
easier to get into it.

<snip>

> I presume "thou wert" is ye olde English way of saying "you were".

As 'thou dost' -- when the independent (familiar) form of the second
person singular fell into disuse, the special declension (?) went out
with it. For 'to be' the past tense second person singular was
obviously 'wert' . . .

The present tense appear to have been dominated by an -st ending, so
I wonder if the -t ending was common for the past tense?

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot ++
- /Hogfather/ (Terry Pratchett)
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184510 ] Mi, 14 Dezember 2005 03:31
Emma Pease  
In article <Xns972BDC6285407T.Forch [at] 130.133.1.4>, Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:9sclf.3472$iz3.2737 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>>

>> I do feel a bit sorry for Yavanna here, as she has been corrected
>> by Manwe, and then Aule goes and rebuffs her!
>
> Well, she's the one who ran to daddy ;-)
>
> I can't help finding Yavanna's role in this a little amusing -- there
> is something a little whinging about the way she runs to Manwë once
> she learns that there's a new player. She must also have known, at
> least it seems to have been common knowledge among the Valar, that
> Men would eventually have sole dominion of Middle-earth, and what the
> Dwarves did in the meantime was not going to affect things all that
> much in the long run.

Going back a couple of chapters in the Valaquenta the Valar and their
powers are listed with also some idea of the their relative strengths
then at the end a list is given of the Aratar (sp?) which to my eyes
seems to be by power though that is not stated. The list was

Manwe
Varda
Ulmo
Yavanna
Aule
Mandos
Nienna
Orome

Note that Yavanna comes before Aule. Did Tolkien elsewhere modify
the relative rankings of the Valar? Was Yavanna more
powerful then Aule?


--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184524 ] Mi, 14 Dezember 2005 16:18
Stan Brown  
Wed, 14 Dec 2005 02:31:09 +0000 (UTC) from Emma Pease
<emma [at] kanpai.stanford.edu>:
> Going back a couple of chapters in the Valaquenta the Valar and their
> powers are listed with also some idea of the their relative strengths
> then at the end a list is given of the Aratar (sp?) which to my eyes
> seems to be by power though that is not stated.

It _is_ stated that it's "majesty", which is not the same thing as
power. I believe that Tolkien meant wisdom, and strength of purpose,
and knowledge of the will of Eru, and submission to that will, and so
forth -- not, emphatically not, "power".

The real world (and Tolkien's too) is a lot more complex than
Dungeons and Dragons, where characters rank on some strict numerical
power scale.

> The list was
>
> Manwe
> Varda
> Ulmo
> Yavanna
> Aule
> Mandos
> Nienna
> Orome
>
> Note that Yavanna comes before Aule. Did Tolkien elsewhere modify
> the relative rankings of the Valar? Was Yavanna more
> powerful then Aule?

The only possible answer is "mu". She could make trees that gave off
living light and he couldn't do that; he could make Dwarves and she
couldn't do that.

Note that Tulkas, who isn't even on the list of Aratar, nonetheless
was more able to chain Melkor, the strongest of all the Ainur. That
should end all discussions of "power" as a quantity on an ordered
scale, but alas! I'm sure it won't.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184527 ] Mi, 14 Dezember 2005 16:43
Tamim  
In alt.fan.tolkien Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:

> Note that Tulkas, who isn't even on the list of Aratar, nonetheless
> was more able to chain Melkor, the strongest of all the Ainur. That
> should end all discussions of "power" as a quantity on an ordered
> scale, but alas! I'm sure it won't.

No it won't. Melkor had in the beginning more inheren't _Power_ than any
of the Ainur. As you say, he was the strongest. So in an ordered scale
he would come the first. You said so yourself, so why do at the same
time deny it?
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184528 ] Mi, 14 Dezember 2005 16:57
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:MPG.1e0a01da30ad3d20989d3e [at] news.individual.net>
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>
> Note that Tulkas, who isn't even on the list of Aratar,
> nonetheless was more able to chain Melkor, the strongest
> of all the Ainur.

Precisely.

> That should end all discussions of "power" as a quantity
> on an ordered scale, but alas! I'm sure it won't.

At least you won't be disappointed ('Gandalf vs. Super-Hype Dude from
Dragon-Hyper-Extrme-Power-Niggards: Who Wins?' <sigh>).

'Power' as a single metric is meaningless, fortunately both Arda and in
the real world. The question is one of level of capability to achieve a
specific purpose, and with respect to arm-wrestling, Tulkas was the
stronger, but in terms of 'majesty' we don't really count some giggling
arm-wrestler ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded
gold, it would be a merrier world.
- Thorin Oakenshield, /The Hobbit/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184529 ] Mi, 14 Dezember 2005 16:57
Stan Brown  
14 Dec 2005 15:43:20 GMT from Tamim <hallaril [at] hotmail.com>:
> In alt.fan.tolkien Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> > Note that Tulkas, who isn't even on the list of Aratar, nonetheless
> > was more able to chain Melkor, the strongest of all the Ainur. That
> > should end all discussions of "power" as a quantity on an ordered
> > scale, but alas! I'm sure it won't.
>
> No it won't. Melkor had in the beginning more inheren't _Power_ than any
> of the Ainur. As you say, he was the strongest. So in an ordered scale
> he would come the first. You said so yourself, so why do at the same
> time deny it?

Sure, he was the greatest of the Valar. Nonetheless, Tulkas was able
to wrestle him to a pin fall.

My point is that in Tolkien's world, as in real life, "Is A more
powerful than B" is a meaningless question unless it's trivial. Sure,
Sauron was more powerful than Pippin, but there is simply no one
single right answer to the question whether Sauron was more powerful
than someone like Saruman. (If you think there is, ask yourself which
of them outlived the destruction of the Ring.)

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184530 ] Mi, 14 Dezember 2005 17:20
Tamim  
In alt.fan.tolkien Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:


> Sure, he was the greatest of the Valar. Nonetheless, Tulkas was able
> to wrestle him to a pin fall.

Yep. He had already lost a part of his power, and then there might
have been other reasons for him losing the match. But Tolkien himself
says that he originally was the most powerful. Not the greatest in sense
of wisdom or understanding, but most powerful.


> My point is that in Tolkien's world, as in real life, "Is A more
> powerful than B" is a meaningless question unless it's trivial.

No. Tolkien himself grades the entities in 'powervalue' all the time.
Not all can be graded in this simple way and of those who can, not all
are, but nonetheless that's what Tolkien does.


>Sure,
> Sauron was more powerful than Pippin, but there is simply no one
> single right answer to the question whether Sauron was more powerful
> than someone like Saruman.

I think there is. Sauron was more powerful. That is made quite clear.


>(If you think there is, ask yourself which
> of them outlived the destruction of the Ring.)

Saruman did. Pippin outlived Saruman. Still witouth a doubt Sauron had
more personal power than Pippin. We are talking about personal power
(D&D levels if you prefer), not about who outlived whom. In this world
you can't grade people like that, but in Tolkien's world you can. Or at
least you can grade some of the more mythical creatures if not humans.
Lucifer was the most powerful of angels in "this world" also.




> --
> Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
> http://OakRoadSystems.com
> Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
> Tolkien letters FAQ:
> http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
> FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
> Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
> more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

--
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184543 ] Mi, 14 Dezember 2005 21:46
Christopher Kreuzer  
Emma Pease <emma [at] kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:

<snip>

> Going back a couple of chapters in the Valaquenta the Valar and their
> powers are listed with also some idea of the their relative strengths
> then at the end a list is given of the Aratar (sp?) which to my eyes
> seems to be by power though that is not stated.

It would be surprising if that was stated. What _is_ stated is that the
Aratar are in fact equals (peers):

"Though Manwe is their King and holds their allegiance under Eru, in
majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of
the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Iluvatar has sent
into Ea."

To answer Stan and Troels, who don't seem to like ranking "powers" in
Tolkien's world... :-) ...this makes quite clear that the Aratar are
something special. Tulkas is most definitely not on the A-list. (And
yes, I do realise that there is a difference between power and majesty,
but you can still be a power that has great majesty). What is puzzling
is that, nice as this Aratar concept sounds, it doesn't seem to be
mentioned again in any meaningful sense. Kind of a dead-end concept
really.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184551 ] Do, 15 Dezember 2005 03:40
Emma Pease  
In article <3x%nf.8753$iz3.3964 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Emma Pease <emma [at] kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Going back a couple of chapters in the Valaquenta the Valar and their
>> powers are listed with also some idea of the their relative strengths
>> then at the end a list is given of the Aratar (sp?) which to my eyes
>> seems to be by power though that is not stated.
>
> It would be surprising if that was stated. What _is_ stated is that the
> Aratar are in fact equals (peers):

True though I do wonder why Yavanna comes before Aule in the list (in
the description I think she comes after).

One can have fun juggling the connections of the Valar

Manwe and Varda - The air and the heavens (and eagles)
Ulmo - water
Yavanna and Aule - The earth
Mandos and Nienna - spirit
Orome - ?

> "Though Manwe is their King and holds their allegiance under Eru, in
> majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of
> the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Iluvatar has sent
> into Ea."
>
> To answer Stan and Troels, who don't seem to like ranking "powers" in
> Tolkien's world... :-) ...this makes quite clear that the Aratar are
> something special. Tulkas is most definitely not on the A-list. (And
> yes, I do realise that there is a difference between power and majesty,
> but you can still be a power that has great majesty). What is puzzling
> is that, nice as this Aratar concept sounds, it doesn't seem to be
> mentioned again in any meaningful sense. Kind of a dead-end concept
> really.

Perhaps the Aratar sat at the council table while Tulkas and the rest
sat in the audience?

--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184555 ] Do, 15 Dezember 2005 06:01
Yuk Tang  
Emma Pease <emma [at] kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in
news:slrndq1ls1.bfr.emma [at] munin.Stanford.EDU:
>
> One can have fun juggling the connections of the Valar
>
> Manwe and Varda - The air and the heavens (and eagles)
> Ulmo - water
> Yavanna and Aule - The earth
> Mandos and Nienna - spirit
> Orome - ?

Pigs and horsies.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184557 ] Do, 15 Dezember 2005 09:14
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:3x%nf.8753$iz3.3964 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> To answer Stan and Troels, who don't seem to like ranking "powers"
> in Tolkien's world... :-)

I'd rather say I don't like ranking 'power' as a unidimensional thing
in Tolkien's world -- 'who is most powerful' is often a meaningless
question without the qualifiers 'when' and 'at what'.

We learn in UT that Curumo was 'higher in Valinórean stature than the
others' but this isn't explained, though obviously he is less powerful
at resisting the temptation of power even if he, as Saruman, was
physically stronger than Gandalf (not necessarily muscular power alone,
but the power to affect the physical world -- he could make the loudest
thunderclap, so to speak).

Tolkien often does rank one of his Ainur as 'stronger' or 'wiser' than
another (or two of any combination of races), but then it is clear when
and at what, and it would be a mistake to try to extend that ranking
beyond that time and purpose without further data.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left
the path of wisdom.
- Gandalf, /The Fellowship of the Ring/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184571 ] Do, 15 Dezember 2005 21:18
Christopher Kreuzer  
Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

> Tolkien often does rank one of his Ainur as 'stronger' or 'wiser' than
> another (or two of any combination of races), but then it is clear
> when and at what, and it would be a mistake to try to extend that
> ranking beyond that time and purpose without further data.

To repeat the quote:

"Though Manwe is their King and holds their allegiance under Eru, in
majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare _all_ others, whether
of the Valar and the Maiar, or of _any_ _other_ order that Iluvatar has
sent into Ea." (Valaquenta, my emphasis)

Here, Tolkien does clearly extend this "ranking" in time, and over a
wide range of possibilities. He also uses the phrase "surpassing beyond
compare", which elevates their majesty beyond ordinary surpassing,
emphasising how completely they surpass others. The Aratar means "The
High Ones of Arda". But I agree that here, majesty probably has little
to do with power as we apply it to Tulkas and Melkor wrestling. But
power takes many forms.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184580 ] Do, 15 Dezember 2005 23:18
Stan Brown  
Wed, 14 Dec 2005 20:46:55 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
> To answer Stan and Troels, who don't seem to like ranking "powers" in
> Tolkien's world... :-)

Sigh.

I explained the point as best I could, and I really don't think it's
all that hard: There is no single power ranking, none. You can say
that A has certain capabilities that B doesn't, but then B usually
has some capability that A doesn't. In Tolkien's world as in ours,
"power" is not a single quantity, and therefore "greater" and "less"
have no meaning -- again, excepting trivial cases like a hobbit and a
maia.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184581 ] Do, 15 Dezember 2005 23:22
Stan Brown  
Wed, 14 Dec 2005 20:46:55 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
> It would be surprising if that was stated. What _is_ stated is that the
> Aratar are in fact equals (peers):
>
> "Though Manwe is their King and holds their allegiance under Eru, in
> majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of
> the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Iluvatar has sent
> into Ea."

Peers are _not_ equals, any more than every one of the peers who
brought King John to heel had equal lands or equal fighting forces.
The Duke of Cornwall and the latest life lord X are peers, but they
are most emphatically not equal in power or wealth.

"Peers" is a legal or moral concept, not one of actual equality of
strength. The famous Anglo-American "jury of your peers" does not
mean people who have equal strength or power to you; it means people
who are equal before the law.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184582 ] Do, 15 Dezember 2005 23:23
Stan Brown  
Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:18:01 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
> "Though Manwe is their King and holds their allegiance under Eru, in
> majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare _all_ others, whether
> of the Valar and the Maiar, or of _any_ _other_ order that Iluvatar has
> sent into Ea." (Valaquenta, my emphasis)
>
> Here, Tolkien does clearly extend this "ranking" in time, and over a
> wide range of possibilities.

Christopher, read your own quote. They are peers IN MAJESTY and on
that measure they outrank all others in Ea. That does not mean they
have equal strength or power; indeed, it's obvious from the story
that they do not.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184584 ] Do, 15 Dezember 2005 23:31
Raven  
"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> skrev i en meddelelse
news:MPG.1e0bb5cc24769259989d4a [at] news.individual.net...

> I explained the point as best I could, and I really don't think it's
> all that hard: There is no single power ranking, none. You can say
> that A has certain capabilities that B doesn't, but then B usually
> has some capability that A doesn't. In Tolkien's world as in ours,
> "power" is not a single quantity, and therefore "greater" and "less"
> have no meaning -- again, excepting trivial cases like a hobbit and a
> maia.

Power isn't a scalar constant, but a tensor function of sorts. As are
other things such as intelligence and courage, themselves of course being
elements in the power tensor.

Rabe.
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184585 ] Fr, 16 Dezember 2005 00:13
Christopher Kreuzer  
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Wed, 14 Dec 2005 20:46:55 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
> <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
>> It would be surprising if that was stated. What _is_ stated is that
>> the Aratar are in fact equals (peers):
>>
>> "Though Manwe is their King and holds their allegiance under Eru, in
>> majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others,
>> whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that
>> Iluvatar has sent into Ea."
>
> Peers are _not_ equals, any more than every one of the peers who
> brought King John to heel had equal lands or equal fighting forces.
> The Duke of Cornwall and the latest life lord X are peers, but they
> are most emphatically not equal in power or wealth.

I didn't know anything about the etymology of 'peer', so I thought I
would go and look it up. It seems that 'peers = nobles' came _after_ the
'peers = equals' sense of the word.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=peer

"peer (n.): 1303, "an equal in civil standing or rank" (1215 in
Anglo-L.), from Anglo-Fr. 'peir', O.Fr. 'per' (10c.), from L. 'par'
"equal."..."

I think it is perfectly legitimate to interpret Tolkien's use of the
word 'peers' here to mean that the Aratar are a set of equals surpassing
all others. How would you interpret it, and what do others think?

> "Peers" is a legal or moral concept, not one of actual equality of
> strength. The famous Anglo-American "jury of your peers" does not
> mean people who have equal strength or power to you; it means people
> who are equal before the law.

The 'peer = noble' sense apparently dates from 1382 (see link above),
with 'peerage' from 1454. Remember the knights of the round table? They
were put around a round table to signify their equality. They could
legitimately be called peers in that sense of the word (though it seems
they weren't until Charlemagne's time).

The social sense of 'peers' is from 1944 (maybe they mean things like
'peer pressure'), with 'peer review' appearing from 1971. I couldn't
find when the legal sense ('jury of your peers') first came into use,
though the link with twelve people on a jury and Charlemagne's /Twelve
Peers/ seems rather obvious.

Interesting though that Tolkien uses the word 'peer', as it enters the
English language from Latin and French via Anglo-French, something
Tolkien might have avoided if he could. I wonder what the OE equivalent
for denoting equals would have been?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184587 ] Fr, 16 Dezember 2005 01:41
Stan Brown  
Thu, 15 Dec 2005 23:13:57 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
> "peer (n.): 1303, "an equal in civil standing or rank" (1215 in
> Anglo-L.), from Anglo-Fr. 'peir', O.Fr. 'per' (10c.), from L. 'par'
> "equal."..."
>
> I think it is perfectly legitimate to interpret Tolkien's use of the
> word 'peers' here to mean that the Aratar are a set of equals surpassing
> all others. How would you interpret it, and what do others think?

Your quote (like your earlier quote) contains the whole key, if you
read it for what it says and don't read anything extra into it: equal
IN RANK, not equal in power or in other things.

The Aratar were peers (equal) in majesty. I can't see anything in
that passage from Valaquenta that justifies any comparison of
anything other than "majesty". Granted, there might be some ambiguity
in what the translator means by "majesty", but surely the plain
meaning of that word does not include "power".

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184588 ] Fr, 16 Dezember 2005 01:44
Stan Brown  
Thu, 15 Dec 2005 23:31:20 +0100 from Raven
<jonlennart.beck.god [at] damn.get2net.that.dk.spam>:
> Power isn't a scalar constant, but a tensor function of sorts. As are
> other things such as intelligence and courage, themselves of course being
> elements in the power tensor.

Yes, exactly.

When a quantity is one-dimensional (scalar), like temperature, then
it is meaningful to compare two values and say which is greater. When
a quantity has more dimensions, it is impossible to make such a
comparison.

I just can't understand why people who ought to know better persist
in trying to reduce Tolkien's beautifully complex world to something
uni-dimensional like D&D power points or hit points or whatever
they're called.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184595 ] Fr, 16 Dezember 2005 09:39
Christopher Kreuzer  
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:

<snip>

> The Aratar were peers (equal) in majesty. I can't see anything in
> that passage from Valaquenta that justifies any comparison of
> anything other than "majesty". Granted, there might be some ambiguity
> in what the translator means by "majesty", but surely the plain
> meaning of that word does not include "power".

I think that might be the closest we come to agreement! :-)

I think that "majesty" includes some measure of their power. Not all of
it obviously, but still enough to suggest that the Aratar were, in some
senses of the word, powerful.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184596 ] Fr, 16 Dezember 2005 09:47
Christopher Kreuzer  
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Thu, 15 Dec 2005 23:31:20 +0100 from Raven
> <jonlennart.beck.god [at] damn.get2net.that.dk.spam>:
>> Power isn't a scalar constant, but a tensor function of sorts.
>> As are other things such as intelligence and courage, themselves of
>> course being elements in the power tensor.
>
> Yes, exactly.
>
> When a quantity is one-dimensional (scalar), like temperature, then
> it is meaningful to compare two values and say which is greater. When
> a quantity has more dimensions, it is impossible to make such a
> comparison.

And there I was, thinking we were talking about literary descriptions,
with all the vaguesness and ambiguity that implies. Different things at
different times to different people. I think a discussion of the
language would work better here than a scientific or mathematical
analogy. Even power as a tensor function of sorts would be more
precisely defined than is needed. We simply have an author using
language to describe things, and the same word in two different contexts
can describe different things.

> I just can't understand why people who ought to know better persist
> in trying to reduce Tolkien's beautifully complex world to something
> uni-dimensional like D&D power points or hit points or whatever
> they're called.

Who's been trying to do that? There's been some discussion of it, but I
don't think anyone is actually suggesting this.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184597 ] Fr, 16 Dezember 2005 10:55
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:m3vof.9708$iz3.4203 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>> The Aratar were peers (equal) in majesty. I can't see anything in
>> that passage from Valaquenta that justifies any comparison of
>> anything other than "majesty". Granted, there might be some
>> ambiguity in what the translator means by "majesty", but surely
>> the plain meaning of that word does not include "power".
>
> I think that might be the closest we come to agreement! :-)
>
> I think that "majesty" includes some measure of their power. Not
> all of it obviously, but still enough to suggest that the Aratar
> were, in some senses of the word, powerful.

Well, part of the problem is that 'power' is such a flexible word, so
it'd be difficult to disagree ;-)

I might have said that 'majesty' surely includes much that is not, in
the usual sense, 'power' -- his 'understanding of Eru's mind' is
surely part of Manwë's 'majesty', and I wouldn't normally call that
'power'.

Being naturally scientifically minded, my problem is that there is no
generic way to measure 'power' as it is used in this context (which
is, obviously, not the same as the physical sense). I can imagine
measuring 'majesty' by the average amount of awe inspired in a
standard set of test persons ;-) (realising that this would be a
very complex function of many aspects of their being, including
everything meant by 'power') but 'power' doesn't lend itself to
something that simple.

Varda's creation of new stars were 'greatest of all the works of the
Valar since their coming into Arda', 'To Melkor among the Ainur had
been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge,'[*] but he
'fled before [Tulkas'] wrath and [Tulkas'] laughter, and forsook
Arda.' All of these things measure in some way 'power', but they give
wildly different answers to who was the most powerful, because
'power', in the literary sense, cannot be represented as a simple
one-dimensional metric (physically 'power' is the rate of energy
conversion, but that doesn't help here).


[*] This statement is quickly expanded by explaining that 'he had a
share in all the gifts of his brethren.' Thus Melkor was, in the
beginning more powerful at everything, though he may nevertheless
have been less efficient at them due to his lack of subtlety and
patience.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

They both savoured the strange warm glow of being much
more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant
of ordinary things.
- Discworld scientists at work, /Equal Rites/ (Terry Pratchett)
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184602 ] Fr, 16 Dezember 2005 16:04
Stan Brown  
Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:39:46 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > The Aratar were peers (equal) in majesty. I can't see anything in
> > that passage from Valaquenta that justifies any comparison of
> > anything other than "majesty". Granted, there might be some ambiguity
> > in what the translator means by "majesty", but surely the plain
> > meaning of that word does not include "power".
>
> I think that might be the closest we come to agreement! :-)
>
> I think that "majesty" includes some measure of their power. Not all of
> it obviously, but still enough to suggest that the Aratar were, in some
> senses of the word, powerful.

Okay, so define your terms: when you say that A is more powerful than
B, what do you mean by "power"? What single-dimensional linear scale
are you using?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184604 ] Fr, 16 Dezember 2005 16:07
Stan Brown  
Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:47:40 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > I just can't understand why people who ought to know better persist
> > in trying to reduce Tolkien's beautifully complex world to something
> > uni-dimensional like D&D power points or hit points or whatever
> > they're called.
>
> Who's been trying to do that? There's been some discussion of it, but I
> don't think anyone is actually suggesting this.

Every time someone disputes or judges whether A or B is "more
powerful", that is exactly what they are doing. It's what "more"
means (in English, not just in math) -- some definable quality of
which one possesses as much as the other plus some in addition.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184609 ] Fr, 16 Dezember 2005 21:38
Larry Swain  
Stan Brown wrote:
> Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:39:46 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
> <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
>
>>Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>>>The Aratar were peers (equal) in majesty. I can't see anything in
>>>that passage from Valaquenta that justifies any comparison of
>>>anything other than "majesty". Granted, there might be some ambiguity
>>>in what the translator means by "majesty", but surely the plain
>>>meaning of that word does not include "power".
>>
>>I think that might be the closest we come to agreement! :-)
>>
>>I think that "majesty" includes some measure of their power. Not all of
>>it obviously, but still enough to suggest that the Aratar were, in some
>>senses of the word, powerful.
>
>
> Okay, so define your terms: when you say that A is more powerful than
> B, what do you mean by "power"? What single-dimensional linear scale
> are you using?
>
Surely "power" is included in majesty--one's majesty is one's greatness,
one's glory etc.
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184612 ] Sa, 17 Dezember 2005 01:20
Stan Brown  
Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:38:51 -0600 from Larry Swain
<theswain [at] operamail.com>:
> Surely "power" is included in majesty--one's majesty is one's greatness,
> one's glory etc.

I think not. Real Life is full of examples of awe-inspiring majesty
with no power: the Emperors of Japan under the Shogunate, for
instance. Closer to home, the British monarchy is full of majesty but
has zero power. (True, the sovereign has wide powers in theory, but
they are exercised by the government in her name. She herself acts
"on advice", which means she does what the PM tells her.)

The Valar did have actual power, but just my examples show that you
can't infer anything about their power -- _still_ an undefined term,
please note -- from their majesty.

As Professor Kirke said, "What _do_ they teach in the schools these
days?"

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184624 ] So, 18 Dezember 2005 22:19
Christopher Kreuzer  
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:39:46 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
> <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
>> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>> The Aratar were peers (equal) in majesty. I can't see anything in
>>> that passage from Valaquenta that justifies any comparison of
>>> anything other than "majesty". Granted, there might be some
>>> ambiguity in what the translator means by "majesty", but surely the
>>> plain meaning of that word does not include "power".
>>
>> I think that might be the closest we come to agreement! :-)
>>
>> I think that "majesty" includes some measure of their power. Not all
>> of it obviously, but still enough to suggest that the Aratar were,
>> in some senses of the word, powerful.
>
> Okay, so define your terms: when you say that A is more powerful than
> B, what do you mean by "power"? What single-dimensional linear scale
> are you using?

I'm not. I'm using language, rather than an exact scale.

Are you suggesting that whenever Tolkien said 'A' was more powerful than
'B', that _he_ was using a single-dimensional linear scale? Why should I
have to define my terms when you wouldn't ask Tolkien to define every
word he wrote?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184637 ] Mo, 19 Dezember 2005 17:03
Chris Kern  
On 13 Dec 2005 20:39:53 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
<Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> posted the following:

>I've lost count, but I believe I'll be 'seventhing' this -- or
>something ;-)
>
>I am only beginning to discover the wealth and complexity hidden in
>the textual history, and I am grateful that we have people here
>providing overviews in these discussions, as that makes it much
>easier to get into it.

I'm still planning on writing that kind of post for chapters 3-6; I'm
working on 3, since I'm on christmas break now I should be able to get
time to get it done.

-Chris
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184638 ] Mo, 19 Dezember 2005 18:49
jwkenne  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Interesting though that Tolkien uses the word 'peer', as it enters the
> English language from Latin and French via Anglo-French, something
> Tolkien might have avoided if he could. I wonder what the OE equivalent
> for denoting equals would have been?

My knowledge of OE is next to nil, but the only A-S morpheme I can
recall encountering in ME is "even-". He might have gone with
"even-lords" or something of the sort, but it strikes me as too
preciously un-Norman to live.

--
John W. Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184640 ] Mo, 19 Dezember 2005 22:02
Stan Brown  
Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:19:13 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
> Are you suggesting that whenever Tolkien said 'A' was more powerful than
> 'B', that _he_ was using a single-dimensional linear scale? Why should I
> have to define my terms when you wouldn't ask Tolkien to define every
> word he wrote?

I do not recall any bald Tolkien statement about A being "more
powerful" than B. I can recall quite a number of much more specific
statements, but none so generic. Which one are you thinking of?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #188949 ] Di, 20 Dezember 2005 19:09
Larry Swain  
Stan Brown wrote:
> Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:38:51 -0600 from Larry Swain
> <theswain [at] operamail.com>:
>
>>Surely "power" is included in majesty--one's majesty is one's greatness,
>>one's glory etc.
>
>
> I think not. Real Life is full of examples of awe-inspiring majesty
> with no power: the Emperors of Japan under the Shogunate, for
> instance. Closer to home, the British monarchy is full of majesty but
> has zero power. (True, the sovereign has wide powers in theory, but
> they are exercised by the government in her name. She herself acts
> "on advice", which means she does what the PM tells her.)
>
> The Valar did have actual power, but just my examples show that you
> can't infer anything about their power -- _still_ an undefined term,
> please note -- from their majesty.
>
> As Professor Kirke said, "What _do_ they teach in the schools these
> days?"
>

Yes, I do wonder, Stan. ;) Real life isn't that full of examples and
let's take a look at those you have given. In the case of the first one
I think you have confused pomp with majesty. While there can be some
overlapin the semantic ranges of the words, and that's where your
objection comes from, at the most basic level they are two different
things. Majesty is one's power, greatness, dignity etc whereas pomp is
more the display, and may even be the display of one's greatness and
power if one has it. The Emperor example is just that: all pomp but no
majesty or greatness to back it up. The British Monarchy had
substantially more power under Victoria and Edward, Tolkien's youth and
young adulthood, and under George that it did after the second world
war. And again I think you have conflated pomp and majesty: the
monarchy once had majesty that the pomp displayed, and now all that is
left is the pomp that recalls past glory, power, and greatness of the
institution and those who fill it.

Given that Tolkien chose words carefully, I'd take a close look at
majestas in Latin: in both pagan and Christian traditions the word is
used to describe the gods and God and kings and emperors...all beings
with nearly absolute power over the universe and over the lives of men.
It is here I think we should strive to understand what Tolkien meant
by majesty, and power would certainly be a part of that. Moreover,
while an "individual" power may not be as great as another individual
power (this gets us over into words like craft, virtue, ars, etc),
in comparison to one's overall "power"--the ability to affect things at
its most basic.

Just some thoughts...
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #188968 ] Mi, 21 Dezember 2005 17:20
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:05SdnV71ZpJs1TXenZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d [at] rcn.net> Larry
Swain <theswain [at] operamail.com> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> It is here I think we should strive to understand what Tolkien
> meant by majesty, and power would certainly be a part of that.

Would it be fair to say that 'Majesty' is a perceived quality, and
that therefore it is the 'perceivable power' that enters into it?

Pippin has a moment in Minas Tirith:

Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard
than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful;
and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin
perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the
deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was
older, far older. 'How much older?' he wondered, and then
he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about
it before.
[LotR V,1 'Minas Tirith']

It isn't clear, but I get the impression that the power, wisdom and
majesty are somehow related, but not quite the same, and that this is
some kind of insight Pippin gets. It does, however, suggest that
there is some kind of 'true majesty' -- a majesty that doesn't depend
on that which can (normally) be perceived.

The use of 'power' here suggests, to me at least, 'strength of will'
(which is probably related to other expressions of power as well). It
might be interesting to look at other instances (e.g. 'not for power
or wisdom, at any rate' Gandalf I,2 and 'You are wise and powerful'
Frodo to Gandalf I,2 as well as Aragorn's description of 'the figures
of Elendil and Isildur as they stand carven in their majesty in the
halls of Denethor' II,2 which almost suggests that majesty also is a
purely visual thing -- except as perceived by Pippin in the above).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Taking fun
as simply fun
and earnestness
in earnest
shows how thouroughly
thou none
of the two
discernest.
- Piet Hein, /The Eternal Twins/
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #188972 ] Mi, 21 Dezember 2005 21:10
Christopher Kreuzer  
Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> In message <news:05SdnV71ZpJs1TXenZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d [at] rcn.net> Larry
> Swain <theswain [at] operamail.com> enriched us with:
>>
>
> <snip>
>
>> It is here I think we should strive to understand what Tolkien
>> meant by majesty, and power would certainly be a part of that.

Stan did ask me in a subthread of this discussion if I could provide
examples where Tolkien directly compares 'A' to 'B'. What I had in mind
was more along the lines of the examples Troels gives below. I may find
time to think of a few more examples, but not just yet.

> Would it be fair to say that 'Majesty' is a perceived quality, and
> that therefore it is the 'perceivable power' that enters into it?
>
> Pippin has a moment in Minas Tirith:
>
> Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard
> than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful;
> and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin
> perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the
> deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was
> older, far older. 'How much older?' he wondered, and then
> he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about
> it before.
> [LotR V,1 'Minas Tirith']
>
> It isn't clear, but I get the impression that the power, wisdom and
> majesty are somehow related, but not quite the same, and that this is
> some kind of insight Pippin gets.

I get the impression here that majesty, wisdom and power are being
explicitly contrasted as separate things. They may, however, just be
different sides of the same (multi-faceted) coin.

> It does, however, suggest that
> there is some kind of 'true majesty' -- a majesty that doesn't depend
> on that which can (normally) be perceived.

Talk of majesty being veiled reminds me of the references to light. How
light can be veiled and unveiled, both with reference to the Valar and
to that moment when we see Glorfindel's light.

Maybe the Valar that were peers in majesty shone with the same
brightness? This might also tie in with your observation about
perception. There are aspects to the Valar that even the Elves cannot
clearly see. Is this related to their majesty? Maybe majesty is
something like divine power?

> The use of 'power' here suggests, to me at least, 'strength of will'
> (which is probably related to other expressions of power as well). It
> might be interesting to look at other instances (e.g. 'not for power
> or wisdom, at any rate' Gandalf I,2 and 'You are wise and powerful'
> Frodo to Gandalf I,2 as well as Aragorn's description of 'the figures
> of Elendil and Isildur as they stand carven in their majesty in the
> halls of Denethor' II,2 which almost suggests that majesty also is a
> purely visual thing -- except as perceived by Pippin in the above).

The example of the statues is a good example where majesty is definitely
not physical power. The statues have power only in the sense that they
can strike awe in those looking at them, as indeed they do strike awe in
Pippin when he sees them.

It would be interesting to constrast the differing uses words like these
throughout LotR and other writings. Here, I am thinking of 'power' and
'majesty'. Any other suitable words?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #192131 ] Di, 27 Dezember 2005 20:54
danhenry  
On 14 Dec 2005 16:20:57 GMT, Tamim <hallaril [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

>In alt.fan.tolkien Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:

>> Sure, he was the greatest of the Valar. Nonetheless, Tulkas was able
>> to wrestle him to a pin fall.
>
>Yep. He had already lost a part of his power, and then there might
>have been other reasons for him losing the match. But Tolkien himself
>says that he originally was the most powerful. Not the greatest in sense
>of wisdom or understanding, but most powerful.

Melkor had the highest level of all the Maiar. He likely had the highest
total stats. However, Tulkas probably had a higher Strength and he
certainly had a much higher Wrestling skill. Also, he'd taken the
Fighting Laughter special power which matched up well to Melkor's Coward
At Heart weakness.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
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