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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom
| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15349] |
Do, 31 März 2005 15:08 |
|
In message <slrnd2nr3v.800.mightymartianca [at] aaron.clausen>,
AC <mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>
> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 03:12:10 GMT,
> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>
> <snip excellent summary, good job Christopher>
I wholeheartedly agree.
I've got quite a bit behind in these discussions -- I've been rather
busy and it does take up quite a bit of time to stay abreast of the CotW
discussions (currently I have about a hundred RABT/AFT posts that I
would like to read in detail and respond to), but some chapters just
/must/ receive some attention, and this is one of them.
>> Comments and thoughts
>> =====================
>>
>> A) Comments referenced to summary text
>>
>> [1] This can't be the very _first_ moment Sam considered that they
>> might not return alive? Or maybe it is? What do you think?
>
> I think it's quite possible that Sam really didn't understand what
> was fully involved and the possible consequences of the quest until
> now.
I believe that the thought has occurred to him before this, but he had,
until this point, been able to put it back; to convince himself that
though the situation might look dark, it was not completely hopeless.
Now the realisation is inescapable -- there is no way for him to pretend
that there is a way out
" 'Maybe,' said Sam; 'but where there's life there's hope,
as my Gaffer used to say; and need of vittles, as he
mostways used to add.'"
(LotR IV,7 'Journey to the Cross-roads')
As R. Dan Henry mentions, part of this is that the 'need of vittles'
will be unsatisfiable after reaching Mount Doom, and that hits back --
then there will be no life and no hope (I know, logically that inference
can't be reached from the Gaffer's adage, but Sam, nevertheless, would
still have reached it, I believe).
>> [2] What caused this hardening of Sam's will? The lembas or something
>> else?
" But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was
turned to a new strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew
stern, almost grim, as the will hardened in him, and he
felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he was turning
into some creature of stone and steel that neither despair
nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue."
> I think this is the best example we'll ever see of that Hobbitesh
> toughness which Gandalf alluded to so long before. This must have
> been how the Hobbits behaved in the face of dire circumstances.
I wonder.
We know that Sam was 'inspired' by an outside source to utter that
invocation in LotR IV,10 'The Choices of Master Samwise' (letter #211),
and this may, in part at least, also be externally inspired.
On the other hand there is no doubt that this is Sam's hour. This is
where Frodo fails as a hero (anticipating a later question) and Sam
shines. In these Mordor chapters, Sam is the real hero, and Frodo the
noble and wise master that the hero has to get to his destination.
On the balance of things, I think that there might be a bit of both
involved -- Sam getting a bit of help to reach a state that it would
have taken him a bit longer to reach unaided. But I don't think the
lembas had anything to do with this: their effect appear to me to be
more long-term.
>> [3] Anyone want to go on a holiday to the Dark Tower? :-)
>
> Heh.
"And here we have the ruins of Barad-dūr. First built during the Second
Age, and rebuilt in the Third Age, the Dark Tower served as the main
base for the Dark Lord, Sauron. Notice the interesting use of gargoyles
in the fragments over on the left. This style was particular to Mordor
and . . ."
I wouldn't like to go there while it stood, though.
>> [4] Are these lights Gollum's eyes?
>
> Good question! I've often wondered this myself.
I can't see what else it could be. In particular at that time and place,
the only creature I can think of is Gollum. Not only is the light of his
eyes a long established 'pattern' or symbol of Gollum, but Sam does see
these 'pale lights like eyes', and yet no Orcs or worse came.
If it wasn't Gollum, then what? A dumb animal? That wouldn't fit the
mentioning in the book, IMO. Some other intelligent watcher not loyal
to Sauron? Not very likely at that place and time.
>> [5] There are many other descriptions of the Darkness that comes from
>> Mordor. How much of it is the fumes from Mount Doom, and how much of
>> it is these shadows woven by Sauron?
>
> Obviously there is both present. I guess it's little wonder that
> Mordor is the Land of Shadow.
I'm reminded of another of Morgoth's Ainu servants who was apparently
able to surround itself with this kind of almost-material shadow ;-)
How much of this is a darkening existing only in the mind of the
spectator, and how much has an actual physical existence?
The cover spreading from Mordor earlier to cause the shadow over Gondor
during the attack, and which is dispersed by the west wind that brought
Aragorn the faster to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was, IMO, the
fumes from Mount Doom, while the darkness of heart and mind that
affected the defenders of the city may well have been not only the
effect of the Nazgūl, but also of Sauron's shadows (if this power of the
Nazgūl is not an extension of the power of their master).
>> [6] What does Frodo mean when he says he "is almost in its power"?
I would say that it is a recognition of the influence the Ring has on
his mind -- the amount of control it holds over his thoughts.
To repeat a question that we discussed earlier (much earlier, in fact. I
believe it was during IV,3 'The Black Gate is Closed'): "Do you think he
still believes, here at this moment, that he truly can cast the Ring
into
the Fire?"
I think that he may, at this point, have begun to doubt, though he was
probably still determined to at least try -- his intention with going to
the cracks was still to attempt to destroy the Ring, but whether he
truly believed that it would be possible for him, I don't know.
>> At what point would Sam be forced to take the Ring from Frodo and
>> continue the quest?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean the point where it
would be best to take it, the point when Sam would attempt to take it or
the last point where he would be able to take it?
>> Probably only from his dead body.
I don't think that Sam would have even considered taking it by force
from a living Frodo, no. He does offer to carry it a couple of times,
but he doesn't pursue it when Frodo says no.
>> What if Frodo went mad or succumbed to the Ring?
I'm not sure that Sam would have tried even then, but it would probably
have been in vain even if he did try after Frodo had succumbed to the
Ring. Frodo was of a far greater stature than Gollum and would probably
have been able to command at least some of the lesser powers of the
Ring.
> Judging by Frodo behaves further on, I suspect that it would have to
> be death or severe injury.
Enough that Sam would realise that Frodo would be unable to continue the
quest and probably it would also require such severe injury that Frodo
would be unable to fight Sam for possession.
> I think Frodo has gained sufficient stature to be able to use the
> Ring's real powers (some may disagree on the nature confrontation
> between Frodo and Gollum at the foot of Mount Doom, of course).
Well, some of the minor powers and not necessarily consciously . . .
Putting on the Ring to become invisible is, of course, one way to use
the Ring's powers, but it does go far beyond that, as is shown already
be Galadriel's words to Frodo in II,7 'The Mirror of Galadriel':
"Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on
finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown
keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than
many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that
holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and
recognize the ring upon my finger?"
Already then Frodo's powers are increased by the Ring -- whether he is
drawing upon the powers of the Ring or is himself enlarged is not, IMO,
entirely clear. I think it likely that any use of the Ring's powers
would have to be of this sort until he claimed it for his own -- only by
doing that would he, I believe, be able to consciously and deliberately
invoke the Ring's powers (and even then he would not be able to do much,
as Isildur found out).
>> [7] What is this wheel of fire? Yes, I know it is the Ring, but it
>> seems to be a vision of the Ring. Is it related to the later
>> description of the Ring as "verily it seemed wrought of living fire"
>> just before Gollum falls into the Fire?
>
> I suppose, but I also think that it's very good imagery for the
> effect its having on Frodo, a burden and a threat, a terrifying
> symbol of terrible power.
Yes, I agree. The Wheel of Fire is a symbolic or metaphorical
representation of the Ring, or perhaps rather, of the power of the Ring:
here; it's power over Frodo, and later it's power over both Frodo and
Gollum.
<snip>
>> [9] Is this description of Sam's mind the clarity of mind of the
>> doomed man? The peace of the man who will be executed in the morning?
>
> Yes, I think this is the explanation. He's beyond the point of no
> return now. There's only way to go, and that's ahead.
>> [10] The final stages of the quest remind me of biblical scenes,
>> such as the temptation scenes in the desert. Are Sam's internal
>> debates and the thirst scenes meant to evoke such imagery?
>
> I suppose there's something of the feel of the Exodus, though on a
> much reduced time scale.
Yes. I don't think that they're exactly meant (by Tolkien) to evoke that
imagery, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out as a (probably
sub-conscious) source of inspiration.
Tolkien's attitude towards the Bible as the greatest story ever is clear
from /On Fairy Stories/, and furthermore there are the comparisons
between Galadriel and Mary, Lembas and the Eucharist that Tolkien speaks
about in letter #213:
"Another saw in waybread (lembas)= viaticum and the reference
to its feeding the will (vol. III, p. 213) and being more
potent when fasting, a derivation from the Eucharist. (That
is: far greater things may colour the mind in dealing with the
lesser things of a fairy-story.)"
[Letter #213, From a letter to Deborah Webster (25 October 1958)]
That is, he acknowledges the possibility of an inspiration, but denies
that it should be deliberate. I think the same might be the case here.
>> [11] OK. Who is doing this calling to Sam and Frodo? This injecting
>> of a sense of urgency? Trying to synchronise the Ring destruction
>> and the Battle of the Morannon. My guess is Gandalf himself.
>
> Gandalf seemed awfully busy in these final moments. I shy away from
> guessing at these scenes where there's the potential for outside
> intervention. If someone bent my arm, I'd bet it was the Valar
> themselves, seeing the Hobbits in such hard shape, giving them some
> strength and resolve for the final push.
I agree with that.
Even though we have seen Gandalf working from a distance to support
Frodo on Amon Hen, we also heard him explain how much that had fatigued
him ("Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought."
III,5 'The White Rider'). And, as you say, Gandalf was very busy at that
time.
Sometimes I get the feeling that we may be a little too reluctant to
postulate divine interference, and at other times I think we shouldn't
pull it out of the bag all the time :-/
Reading letters, it occasionally appears that Tolkien thought Eru
intervened quite often during the War of the Ring (after the
re-embodiment of Gandalf), but at other times it seems that he was quite
reluctant to posit that explanation.
I honestly don't know.
>> [12] I must apologise to Peter Jackson for doubting that he made up
>> that scene in the film where Frodo collapses under the influence of
>> the Eye.
It was, IMO, more than a bit overdone in the film, but you're right that
it wasn't entirely made up by Jackson and Boyens.
>> Pity they didn't keep the lighthouse beam pointing just to
>> the northwest
;-)
>> (Tolkien's use of northwards is strange - it seems there is a
>> large difference between gazing north and gazing northwards).
Look at it from the Hobbits' point of view. They are almost due west of
Barad-dūr, and see the 'flicker of a piercing eye' going from the tower
to their left -- in a generally northerly direction. The vision lasts
only for an instant, and there is no way that they could determine the
direction more accurately than 'northwards'; somewhere in the
northernmost quadrant of the compass.
>> [13] Dying embers of Frodo's heart and will? What is this about?
I have related this to Narya already -- it is perhaps even clearer in UT
where Cķrdan wishes to give Narya into nobler hand than his, "that may
wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage."
The motif of awaking a fire in the heart, of fire as a symbol of
personal strength (see e.g. Fėanor) is common in Tolkien, and that is
what happens here: Frodo's will has been nearly subdued by his burden;
by the breaking strain of his continuous battle with the Ring (e.g.
resisting 'the Ring's lure to power', letter #181). His will was, I
think, fully concentrated on the Ring, and he didn't care much about the
world around him -- being torpid to the real world. The attempt to
wrestle the Ring from him pulled him out of that state and awoke his
will to focus, for a while at least, on external factors.
>> Also, exactly when did Gollum realise that Sam and Frodo intend to
>> destroy the Ring. Why not attack them earlier?
That's a good question.
> I think I broached this one myself not so long ago. Gollum clearly
> knows enough Ringlore to know that the Ring would be destroyed if
> thrown into Sammath Naur. Yet wouldn't it have been just as bad for
> Gollum if Sauron had reclaimed it? As I said before, I think
> Gollum's intent all along was to betray Frodo and take the Ring, and
> I doubt he had any idea until he caught up with them at Mount Doom
> that Frodo's true intent might be to destroy the Ring.
He is definitely aware of their intention when he does catch up with
them ("He musstn't go that way. He mussn't hurt Preciouss").
I don't know when he realised this -- both when the possibility first
dawned on him, and when he became certain, but I think it is likely that
the suspicion had been growing in him at least since the Hobbits left
the Orc-road and steered directly for Mount Doom, but he may not have
been completely certain until they started to climb the mountain (what
else he may have believed, I cannot guess, but the idea would probably
be very difficult for him to grasp, just as it was impossible for
Sauron).
>> [14] Simple question. What is going on here with a talking wheel of
>> fire?
>>
>> :-)
>
> "The number you have dialed is not in service. Please hang up and
> try your call again."
LOL!
But I agree with what has been said elsewhere that it is Frodo who is
speaking. The 'Wheel of Fire', to me, signifies (as per above) the power
of the One Ring, and here it shows that Frodo is invoking that power.
I don't think it is deliberate -- Frodo is /not/ the master of the Ring,
but even possessing the Ring does give him some power over evil (as is
seen by the example of Sam and the Orc in the Tower of Cirith Ungol),
and a creature that is as wholly under the dominion of the Ring as is
Gollum will likely be even easier to dominate.
We should probably recall the other instances where Frodo has confronted
Gollum backing up himself with the threat of the Ring:
" 'No! not on it,' said Frodo, looking down at him with
stern pity. 'All you wish is to see it and touch it, if you
can, though you know it would drive you mad. Not on it.
Swear by it, if you will. For you know where it is. Yes,
you know, Sméagol. It is before you.'
For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown
and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord
who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a
little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and
not alien: they could reach one another's minds. Gollum
raised himself and began pawing at Frodo, fawning at his
knees.
'Down! down! ' said Frodo. `Now speak your promise!'"
[LotR IV,1 'The Taming of Sméagol']
" 'I did not mean the danger that we all share,' said
Frodo. 'I mean a danger to yourself alone. You swore a
promise by what you call the Precious. Remember that! It
will hold you to it; but it will seek a way to twist it to
your own undoing. Already you are being twisted. You
revealed yourself to me just now, foolishly. Give it back
to Sméagol you said. Do not say that again! Do not let that
thought grow in you! You will never get it back. But the
desire of it may betray you to a bitter end. You will never
get it back. In the last need, Sméagol, I should put on the
Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I,
wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it
were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the
fire. And such would be my command. So have a care,
Sméagol!'"
[LotR IV,3 'The Black Gate is Closed']
As in the previous cases, I don't think that Frodo is consciously trying
to really invoke the powers of the Ring -- it is a threat he is making,
but somehow the Ring gets involved. Possibly it is all in the diseased
mind of Gollum: if he, deep down, believes that the Ring was behind this
step, his subconscious may even have inadvertently caused him to misstep
when he had touched Frodo.
I am not sure exactly what is going on -- I believe that it is Frodo who
is speaking, and that the power the Ring holds over the lives of these
three Hobbits is somehow involved; awoken, perhaps, more than invoked,
though I don't think Frodo intends this. Whether it is a power that
exists only in their minds, or if Frodo actually does (inadvertently)
awaken some power of the Ring, or if the Ring is taking up Frodo's curse
and amplifying it, I don't know.
>> [15] Is Frodo still in control here? At what point does he lose
>> control?
>
> I don't think Frodo loses control until he's in Sammath Naur.
I agree. And I think that this is strongly suggested in the letters:
" Frodo was in such a position: an apparently complete trap:
a person of greater native power could probably never have
resisted the Ring's lure to power so long; a person of less
power could not hope to resist it in the final decision."
[Letter #181, To Michael Straight [drafts] (probably January or February
1956)]
" I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the
last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum
- impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist,
certainly after long possession, months of increasing
torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what
he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of
Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object
of his quest could be achieved."
[Letter #246, From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) (September
1963)]
>> [16] Sam's mercy to Gollum. Easy or difficult? Important or not?
>
> I don't think Sam had the strength to do anything more to Gollum.
I think that Sam could have killed Gollum had he wanted to:
" Sam's hand wavered. His mind was hot with wrath and the
memory of evil. It would be just to slay this treacherous,
murderous creature, just and many times deserved; and also
it seemed the only safe thing to do. But deep in his heart
there was something that restrained him: he could not
strike this thing lying in the dust, forlorn, ruinous,
utterly wretched. He himself, though only for a little
while, had borne the Ring, and now dimly he guessed the
agony of Gollum's shrivelled mind and body, enslaved to
that Ring, unable to find peace or relief ever in life
again. But Sam had no words to express what he felt."
I don't think it was for lack of strength, neither of body, mind or
will, that Sam didn't kill Gollum. He was bent on doing it, but
something kept him from it -- "Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without
need."
> Obviously important (if Providence has any part in what happens).
Crucial, I would say.
> If Gollum were dead, then Sam would have been the only one left who
> could try to stop Frodo when he claimed the Ring. I simply cannot
> see Sam throwing Frodo into Sammath Naur.
Exactly.
>> [17] Did Frodo fail or not?
<snip>
> Frodo very clearly failed, and just as clearly (from Tolkien's
> comments in Letters) that was unavoidable. Frodo had got the Ring to
> Sammath Naur, but at that point the Ring was irresistable. I don't
> think anyone; Gandalf or Galadriel included, could have withstood it
> in those final moments.
Precisely.
And to take up on Christopher's invitation to speak about eucatastrophe,
this is indeed an example of a eucatastrophe -- "the sudden joyous
'turn'" -- "it is a sudden and miraculous grace: never to be counted on
to recur." Gollum's theft of the Ring and subsequent fall into the crack
fits the definition to a T: it is almost as if Tolkien uses this, and
several later events in the book, to make a practical definition of
'eucatastrophe' in it's various forms (this is possibly part of what
made the endings so difficult for Jackson et Al. -- they had several
eucatastrophes to cover, and each of them has that feeling of happy
ending; unfortunately they didn't tie them together very well, creating
that slightly ludicrous feeling that many have complained about).
>> [18] Anyone else find Sauron's reaction funny?
Funny in what way? As in 'strange', 'unexpected' or 'out of character'
or perhaps rather as in 'amusing' or 'hilarious'?
But I digress -- actually I don't really find it funny in either way.
> No, I find it sad in an odd sort of way, sort of how I find
> Denethor's last moments or how Saruman ended up as sad. These
> talented people, all three possessing such great gifts, and all those
> gifts wasted. Sauron is clearly the greatest dweller in Middle
> Earth, an Ainu that must have neared the Valar in power and
> knowledge, fooled by a cheap ruse and his own pride and inability to
> understand his enemy.
That's a good description, I think.
Perhaps the different reactions of the smoke columns (which I take to be
a visualisation of their fėar) after the deaths of Sauron and Saruman is
better discussed later, but for now let me just say that Sauron appears
unrepentant, and is thus not really pitiable.
>> [19] Ooh, look! Another "wave crashing on the land" image. Tolkien
>> liked using that dream he had. He used it for Numenor, and here we
>> have another similar set of images.
>
> I think it ties the whole together very nicely. The Lord of the
> Rings is the perfect end to the mythos.
And it is not the only 'repetition' of story-lines or imagery. Arwen and
Aragorn ties in nicely with the two Edain/Eldar marriages from the First
Age, Thranduil's caves in the Hobbit are reminiscent of Menegroth etc.
etc.
Not only does it tie things together very nicely, but it is also an
aspect that is seen in real mythologies: that certain elements are
repeated. It helps to establish that feeling of historicity, which
Tolkien strove to convey.
>> [20] Were the Nazgul destroyed by the eruption or destruction of the
>> Ring?
>
> Hard to say. The Witch King was brought down prior to the Ring's
> destruction, but that was by a bit of Numenorean wizardy. My hunch
> is that their ultimate destruction came with the Ring falling in the
> Fire.
There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
the Pelennor Fields.
I doubt that the volcanic eruption could have done more than that, and I
think that the image of the Nazgūl as flaming bolts is a piece of
artistic imagery building on the general destruction and the eruption of
Mount Doom:
[...], the Nazgūl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
withered, and went out.
The subject of simile has been thoroughly discussed here, I know, but
the use of 'as caught . . ." in the above does suggest that they weren't
really caught in the general eruption, but rather that their ending were
their own. Why they would burst into flame (if indeed they did), I don't
know, but possibly their end is a reflection of the ending of the Ring
in the fire, and, I would say, certainly caused by the end of the Ring,
as is also suggested by Gandalf in II,3 'The Ring Goes South', "The
power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him."
>> [21] Has Frodo really recovered? Does he change later and thoughts
>> prey on his mind, or are we (and Sam) deceived here into thinking
>> that we really have the old Frodo back?
>
> I think we are fooled. For the next little bit we are lead to
> believe that the only scar of his trials was the missing finger.
Tolkien deals at length with Frodo's situation after the destruction of
the Ring in letter #246.
" He appears at first to have had no sense of guilt (III
224-5)[1]; he was restored to sanity and peace. But then he
thought that he had given his life in sacrifice: he
expected to die very soon. But he did not, and one can
observe the disquiet growing in him."
[1] "'And there was Frodo, pale and worn, and yet himself
again ; and in his eyes there was peace now, neither strain
of will nor madness, nor any fear. .... 'The Quest is
achieved, and now all is over,' [said Frodo].'"
I would say that Frodo, at this particular point in the story, truly is
healed and at peace, but that it is, in part at least, the peace of a
dying man.
>> [22] How crucial is Gollum to the tale? Do you feel pity for Gollum?
>> Could you forgive someone who has just bitten off your finger? Can
>> you understand the torment it seems Frodo and Gollum were suffering
>> under? Just how evil was this Ring?
>
> Well Gollum clearly wasn't a terribly decent fellow even before he
> killed Deagol to get the Ring. I think about Gandalf's statement
> that what happened to Gollum might have happened to Hobbits that he
> knew. I always picture Lotho Sackville-Baggins, another stinker who
> I could well believe might have suffered the same fate as Smeagol.
Or Ted Sandyman, I agree.
"The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean
soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if
he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his
path."
[Letter #181, To Michael Straight [drafts] (probably January or February
1956)]
From this it would appear that in order to dominate someone as
completely (and/or perhaps 'as quickly') as the Ring did Sméagol, that
someone would have to be already amenable to the special corruption of
the Ring -- that 'lure to power' that seemed the most irresistible
allurement to corruption, which the Ring possessed.
It would also seem that to someone who was completely immune to that
lure -- who was without any desire for power -- the Ring held no power
(Tom Bombadil).
Frodo, in the end, failed -- in the final test he gave in to the
corrupting influence the Ring had on him, but for someone like Sméagol,
there was no test and no long struggle: he didn't 'give in', but was
overpowered immediately.
> Gollum is clearly pitiable. While he was a nasty little bastard
> before, he's twisted and warped. He's psychologically damaged. The
> Ring has destroyed the Hobbit, leaving behind this awful creature
> that literally lives to retake his Precious.
Yes, Gollum is pitiable. This is stressed by the repeated pity and mercy
he receives from Bilbo, Frodo and, in the end, by Sam (who could finally
begin to understand 'the agony of Gollum's shrivelled mind and body').
We are meant, I believe, to pity Gollum and to forgive him when Frodo
forgives him.
It is, perhaps, more interesting whether Sauron is pitiable?
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is t.forch(a)email.dk
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought
which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15532 ] |
Mo, 04 April 2005 01:04 |
|
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:55 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
<Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
>the Pelennor Fields.
Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
It's not clear this is anything but hedging on Tolkien's part; death
reduces one to impotence fairly effectively. The note is not about the
exact state of the Witch-King, but simply explaining why there would
be Eight rather than Nine Nazgul to confront Frodo at Mount Doom.
>I doubt that the volcanic eruption could have done more than that, and I
>think that the image of the Nazgūl as flaming bolts is a piece of
>artistic imagery building on the general destruction and the eruption of
>Mount Doom:
>
> [...], the Nazgūl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
> withered, and went out.
>
>The subject of simile has been thoroughly discussed here, I know, but
>the use of 'as caught . . ." in the above does suggest that they weren't
>really caught in the general eruption, but rather that their ending were
>their own.
I don't read that as simile at all. It doesn't as "as if", which would
indicate simile. It simply says "as", which here appear to used in the
sense of indicating a cause. "As I was late already, I ran the rest of
the way" does not involve simile.
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15540 ] |
Mo, 04 April 2005 04:16 |
|
R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:55 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
> <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>>reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
>>the Pelennor Fields.
>
>
> Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
> It's not clear this is anything but hedging on Tolkien's part; death
> reduces one to impotence fairly effectively. The note is not about the
> exact state of the Witch-King, but simply explaining why there would
> be Eight rather than Nine Nazgul to confront Frodo at Mount Doom.
>
>
>>I doubt that the volcanic eruption could have done more than that, and I
>>think that the image of the Nazgūl as flaming bolts is a piece of
>>artistic imagery building on the general destruction and the eruption of
>>Mount Doom:
>>
>> [...], the Nazgūl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>> withered, and went out.
>>
>>The subject of simile has been thoroughly discussed here, I know, but
>>the use of 'as caught . . ." in the above does suggest that they weren't
>>really caught in the general eruption, but rather that their ending were
>>their own.
>
>
> I don't read that as simile at all. It doesn't as "as if", which would
> indicate simile. It simply says "as", which here appear to used in the
> sense of indicating a cause. "As I was late already, I ran the rest of
> the way" does not involve simile.
"As" where contemporary English normally uses "as if" is a normal, if
old-fashioned, idiom. "As" as a substitute for "[inasmuch] as [subject]
[copula]", is without any parallel that I can recall.
--
John W. Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
http://pws.prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood/index.html
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15553 ] |
Mo, 04 April 2005 16:17 |
|
In message <cub051dvqlgeqtcuo9d09dapb8vb89bgvm [at] 4ax.com>,
R. Dan Henry <danhenry [at] inreach.com> enriched us with:
>
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:55 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
> <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>> reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down
>> on the Pelennor Fields.
>
> Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
As Steuard so aptly put it at one point -- language is about
connotations, not only denotations. By stating that the Witch-king was
reduced to impotence, Tolkien implicitly tells us that he is not reduced
any further than that: in particular that his Fėa hasn't left Arda.
Had the Witch-king died or been destroyed, Tolkien would have stated
that, but his statement is in accordance with the book (II,3 'The Ring
Goes South'), where Gandalf explains that, "The power of their master is
in them, and they stand or fall by him." Since Sauron has not yet
fallen, the Witch-king could not have been destroyed.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is t.forch(a)email.dk
If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the
shoulders of giants.
- Isaac Newton
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15555 ] |
Mo, 04 April 2005 16:39 |
|
"R. Dan Henry" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:55 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
><Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
>>There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>>reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
>>the Pelennor Fields.
>
>Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
>It's not clear this is anything but hedging on Tolkien's part; death
>reduces one to impotence fairly effectively. The note is not about the
>exact state of the Witch-King, but simply explaining why there would
>be Eight rather than Nine Nazgul to confront Frodo at Mount Doom.
I posted something similar. I didn't, and I believe Troels didn't,
intend "reduced to impotence rather than destroyed" as a quote; we
meant that Tolkien said "reduced to impotence" rather than
"destroyed".
Why would Tolkien hedge? If he meant the Witch-King was dead and
had been destroyed, why would he instead say "reduced to
impotence"? When you've killed an enemy, you don't say, "Well, I'm
glad he's reduced to impotence." Since Tolkien used the phrase
"reduced to impotence" when many ways of saying "killed" were
available, I think we were meant to believe he was still alive
(well, still undead) but unable to take any further part in events.
We think of Sauron after the downfall of Numenor and again after
the War of the Last Alliance -- still alive, but powerless.
The one thing we don't know is whether the W-K would have been able
to take shape again eventually if the One Ring had remained intact,
particularly if it was on Sauron's finger.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15556 ] |
Mo, 04 April 2005 16:42 |
|
"John W. Kennedy" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>R. Dan Henry wrote:
>> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:55 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
>> <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>>There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>>>reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
>>>the Pelennor Fields.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
>> It's not clear this is anything but hedging on Tolkien's part; death
>> reduces one to impotence fairly effectively. The note is not about the
>> exact state of the Witch-King, but simply explaining why there would
>> be Eight rather than Nine Nazgul to confront Frodo at Mount Doom.
>>=20
>>=20
>>>I doubt that the volcanic eruption could have done more than that, and I
>>>think that the image of the Nazg=FBl as flaming bolts is a piece of
>>>artistic imagery building on the general destruction and the eruption of
>>>Mount Doom:
>>>
>>> [...], the Nazg=FBl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>> withered, and went out.
>>>
>>>The subject of simile has been thoroughly discussed here, I know, but
>>>the use of 'as caught . . ." in the above does suggest that they weren't
>>>really caught in the general eruption, but rather that their ending were
>>>their own.
>>=20
>> I don't read that as simile at all. It doesn't as "as if", which would
>> indicate simile. It simply says "as", which here appear to used in the
>> sense of indicating a cause. "As I was late already, I ran the rest of
>> the way" does not involve simile.
>
>"As" where contemporary English normally uses "as if" is a normal, if=20
>old-fashioned, idiom. "As" as a substitute for "[inasmuch] as [subject]=20
>[copula]", is without any parallel that I can recall.
Am I the _only_ one who read "as" in the meaning of "when, at the=20
same time as"?
I started running as I saw the bus approach my stop.
He twisted and fell as the bullet caught him in the shoulder.
The "closed" sign went up as I pulled into the parking lot.
--=20
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15575 ] |
Mo, 04 April 2005 22:11 |
|
Stan Brown wrote:
> "John W. Kennedy" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>
>>R. Dan Henry wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:55 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
>>><Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>>>>reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
>>>>the Pelennor Fields.
>>>
>>>
>>>Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
>>>It's not clear this is anything but hedging on Tolkien's part; death
>>>reduces one to impotence fairly effectively. The note is not about the
>>>exact state of the Witch-King, but simply explaining why there would
>>>be Eight rather than Nine Nazgul to confront Frodo at Mount Doom.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I doubt that the volcanic eruption could have done more than that, and I
>>>>think that the image of the Nazgūl as flaming bolts is a piece of
>>>>artistic imagery building on the general destruction and the eruption of
>>>>Mount Doom:
>>>>
>>>> [...], the Nazgūl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>> withered, and went out.
>>>>
>>>>The subject of simile has been thoroughly discussed here, I know, but
>>>>the use of 'as caught . . ." in the above does suggest that they weren't
>>>>really caught in the general eruption, but rather that their ending were
>>>>their own.
>>>
>>>I don't read that as simile at all. It doesn't as "as if", which would
>>>indicate simile. It simply says "as", which here appear to used in the
>>>sense of indicating a cause. "As I was late already, I ran the rest of
>>>the way" does not involve simile.
>>
>>"As" where contemporary English normally uses "as if" is a normal, if
>>old-fashioned, idiom. "As" as a substitute for "[inasmuch] as [subject]
>>[copula]", is without any parallel that I can recall.
>
>
> Am I the _only_ one who read "as" in the meaning of "when, at the
> same time as"?
>
> I started running as I saw the bus approach my stop.
>
> He twisted and fell as the bullet caught him in the shoulder.
>
> The "closed" sign went up as I pulled into the parking lot.
But those aren't parallels to Tolkien's actual sentence. You would have
to substitute "I started running as approach my stop," or "He twisted
and fell as caught him in the shoulder," which are both nonsense.
To the best of my knowledge, taking the "as" as "as if" is the only
interpretation that is consistent with the actual practices of the
English language.
Unless it's a simple misprint, of course.
--
John W. Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
http://pws.prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood/index.html
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15592 ] |
Di, 05 April 2005 06:19 |
|
"John W. Kennedy" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
(intervening attributions snipped -- I can't keep track any more)
>>>>> [...], the Nazg=FBl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>>> withered, and went out.
>>>>>
>>=20
>> Am I the _only_ one who read "as" in the meaning of "when, at the=20
>> same time as"?
>>=20
>> I started running as I saw the bus approach my stop.
>>=20
>> He twisted and fell as the bullet caught him in the shoulder.
>>=20
>> The "closed" sign went up as I pulled into the parking lot.
>
>But those aren't parallels to Tolkien's actual sentence. You would have=20
>to substitute "I started running as approach my stop," or "He twisted=20
>and fell as caught him in the shoulder," which are both nonsense.
"Caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky" is a participial phrase=20
modifying "they". You could rewrite the sentence with the same=20
structure except for that phrase as
"[...], the Nazg=FBl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
they crackled, withered, and went out."=20
Or if you want to make my sentences more flowery and still parallel=20
to Tolkien's, you could do something like "I started running as,=20
panicked at the thought of being late for work, I saw the bus=20
approach my stop."
True, Tolkien didn't put commas around that phrase; but he often=20
left out commas that today we consider essential, as in "A Short=20
Rest" in /The Hobbit/ where their clothes were mended "as well as=20
their bruises their tempers and their hopes."
--=20
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15594 ] |
Di, 05 April 2005 09:04 |
|
In message <3behtsF6grpnqU22 [at] individual.net>,
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
Tolkien, actually, wrote <G>:
>>>>>> [...], the Nazgūl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>>>> withered, and went out.
<snip>
> True, Tolkien didn't put commas around that phrase;
He did -- or at least there is a comma /before/ the 'as' in my copy . .
..
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is t.forch(a)email.dk
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
- Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15602 ] |
Di, 05 April 2005 17:38 |
|
Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <3behtsF6grpnqU22 [at] individual.net>,
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>>
>
> <snip>
>
> Tolkien, actually, wrote <G>:
>>>>>>> [...], the Nazgūl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>>>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>>>>> withered, and went out.
>
> <snip>
>
>> True, Tolkien didn't put commas around that phrase;
>
> He did -- or at least there is a comma /before/ the 'as' in my copy . .
And in the Foreword to "Book of Lost Tales I", which I finally started
reading last night, C. Tolkien mentions that his father was pretty week
with punctuation. A comma before "as" hardly counts, though - that's the
one around the parenthetical expression "shooting like flaming bolts".
There could be another around pair around "caught in the fiery ruin of hill
and sky", but that gets to be a bit much.
Which all reminds me to check out "Eats Shoots and Leaves" from the
library :-)
--
derek
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15605 ] |
Di, 05 April 2005 20:40 |
|
Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> In message <3behtsF6grpnqU22 [at] individual.net>,
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>>
>
> <snip>
>
> Tolkien, actually, wrote <G>:
>>>>>>> [...], the Nazgūl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>>>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>>>>> withered, and went out.
>
> <snip>
>
>> True, Tolkien didn't put commas around that phrase;
>
> He did -- or at least there is a comma /before/ the 'as' in my copy .
I think Stan means the commas that are required to highlight the
parenthetical phrase go after the 'as' and before the 'they':
"...the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts, as, caught in the
fiery ruin of hill and sky, they crackled, withered, and went out."
So, removing the parenthetical phrase, we get:
"...the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts, as they crackled,
withered, and went out."
The reason for the use of the 'as' becomes clear when you try to remove
it from the original sentence:
"...the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts caught in the fiery
ruin of hill and sky. They crackled, withered, and went out."
Without the 'as', the word 'like' now appears to refer to an extended
'flaming bolts' description: "...like 'flaming bolts caught in the fiery
ruin'...". When in fact the "caught in the fiery ruin" bit refers to the
Nazgul, and not to the flaming bolts being used as a metaphor for the
Nazgul.
Checking the whole sentence:
"And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other
sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgul came, shooting like
flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they
crackled, withered, and went out."
We can mark out lots of parenthetical phrases and join the dots:
"And into the heart of the storm (with a cry that pierced all other
sounds => tearing the clouds asunder) the Nazgul came (shooting like
flaming bolts) as (caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky) [the Nazgul
(shooting like flaming bolts)] crackled, withered, and went out."
I read this as the Nazgul flew into the heart of the storm, emitting a
terrible cry, and were then caught in the "fiery ruin of hill and sky".
This caused them to appear like "flaming bolts" that "crackled, withered
and went out".
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15607 ] |
Di, 05 April 2005 23:07 |
|
"Troels Forchhammer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Tolkien, actually, wrote <G>:
>>>>>>> [...], the Nazg=FBl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>>>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>>>>> withered, and went out.
Yes, that's how it was quoted. (I assume it's accurate and idn't=20
check the book before quoting it from the PP.)
Stan said:
>> True, Tolkien didn't put commas around that phrase;
>
>He did -- or at least there is a comma /before/ the 'as' in my copy . .
The comma before "as" doesn't relate to the phrase "caught in the=20
fiery ruin of hill and sky". That one should have commas, at least=20
according to US conventions.
--=20
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
|
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15615 ] |
Mi, 06 April 2005 03:51 |
|
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:07:49 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
>"Troels Forchhammer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>Tolkien, actually, wrote <G>:
>>>>>>>> [...], the Nazgūl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>>>>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>>>>>> withered, and went out.
>Yes, that's how it was quoted. (I assume it's accurate and idn't
>check the book before quoting it from the PP.)
>
>Stan said:
>>> True, Tolkien didn't put commas around that phrase;
>>
>>He did -- or at least there is a comma /before/ the 'as' in my copy . .
>
>The comma before "as" doesn't relate to the phrase "caught in the
>fiery ruin of hill and sky". That one should have commas, at least
>according to US conventions.
Remember that wimpy little things like punctuation may be altered at
the whim of the edition typesetter or proofreader, as Tolkien found
out.
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
You will find adventure or Moo will find you!
This has been a Tamfiiris Experience.
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15617 ] |
Mi, 06 April 2005 09:55 |
|
Stan Brown wrote:
>
> "John W. Kennedy" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> (intervening attributions snipped -- I can't keep track any more)
> >>>>> [...], the Nazgūl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
> >>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
> >>>>> withered, and went out.
> >>>>>
> >>
> >> Am I the _only_ one who read "as" in the meaning of "when, at the
> >> same time as"?
No; before reading this thread it never occurred to me that it could
be taken otherwise, although "for" would also fit.
--
Odysseus
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15619 ] |
Mi, 06 April 2005 12:09 |
|
In message <zYA4e.4564$G8.847 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
> I think Stan means the commas that are required to highlight the
> parenthetical phrase go after the 'as' and before the 'they':
>
> "...the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts, as, caught in the
> fiery ruin of hill and sky, they crackled, withered, and went out."
I see now, thanks.
<snip>
> We can mark out lots of parenthetical phrases and join the dots:
>
> "And into the heart of the storm (with a cry that pierced all other
> sounds => tearing the clouds asunder) the Nazgul came (shooting like
> flaming bolts) as (caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky) [the
> Nazgul (shooting like flaming bolts)] crackled, withered, and went
> out."
>
> I read this as the Nazgul flew into the heart of the storm, emitting a
> terrible cry, and were then caught in the "fiery ruin of hill and
> sky". This caused them to appear like "flaming bolts" that "crackled,
> withered and went out".
Would there be any grammatical objection to the interpretation I
suggested:
"And into the heart of the storm (with a cry that pierced all
other sounds) (tearing the clouds asunder) the Nazgūl came =>
shooting like flaming bolts => as caught in the fiery ruin of
hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out."
Parentheses denoting parenthetical inserts, and '=>' denoting a
sequentiality of the narrative.
I see the fiery death of the Nazgūl as a reflection of the detruction of
the One Ring in the fire rather than an incidental result of their
flying into a volcanic eruption. They were, IMO, 'caught in the fiery
ruin' through the Ring; not through flying into the eruption.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is t.forch(a)email.dk
The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the
opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.
- Niels Bohr
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15624 ] |
Mi, 06 April 2005 21:16 |
|
the softrat <softrat [at] pobox.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:07:49 -0400, Stan Brown
> <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
<snip>
>> The comma before "as" doesn't relate to the phrase "caught in the
>> fiery ruin of hill and sky". That one should have commas, at least
>> according to US conventions.
>
> Remember that wimpy little things like punctuation may be altered at
> the whim of the edition typesetter or proofreader, as Tolkien found
> out.
I thought Tolkien moaned about typesetters 'correcting' his spelling
(mostly of dwarves, though also of little-known, archaic words) and his
grammar (again, archaisms) and maybe even his diacritical thingys (those
funny dots and stuff), but not, as far as I can recall, his puctuation.
From what I can tell, Tolkien wouldn't have noticed. Though I'm sure
someone can dig up a letter from somewhere to prove me wrong.
Christopher
--
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15626 ] |
Do, 07 April 2005 00:17 |
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Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> creatively typed:
> AC <mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Hi, Troels. Nice to hear from you!
>>> Comments and thoughts
<snip>
> "Another saw in waybread (lembas)= viaticum and the reference
> to its feeding the will (vol. III, p. 213) and being more
> potent when fasting, a derivation from the Eucharist. (That
> is: far greater things may colour the mind in dealing with the
> lesser things of a fairy-story.)"
> [Letter #213, From a letter to Deborah Webster (25 October 1958)]
>
> That is, he acknowledges the possibility of an inspiration, but
> denies that it should be deliberate. I think the same might be the
> case here.
I think so, too. This reminds me of Tolkien's famous statement about
allegory vs. applicability from the Foreword. Which has always seemed
to me to be directly related to the nature of good and evil in LotR:
"....for the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in
the purposed domination of the author." Free will versus purposeful
domination of another's will; pretty much the definition of good versus
evil in ME. Does that mean allegory is evil? Nah, I don't think so.
It's just an interesting resonance between Tolkien's real life
reactions to the literature around him (I always think of George Orwell
when I read this bit on allegory), and his own writings.
Tolkien did seem to think that inspiration should be left to work its
way out through the subconscious. There are other hints of this in the
Foreword: "....the way in which a story-germ uses the soil of
experience are extremely complex, and attempts to define the process
are at best guesses from evidence that is inadequate and ambiguous."
It's also part of his reluctance when people asked him for biographical
information to aid in analysis of LotR: he says in /Letters/ that it's
irrelevant:
"Though it is a great compliment, I am really rather sorry to find
myself the subject of a thesis. I do not feel inclined to go into
biographical detail. I doubt its relevance to criticism. Certainly in
any form less than a complete biography, interior and exterior,
which I alone could write, and which I do not intend to write. The
chief biographical fact to me is the completion of The Lord of the
Rings, which still astonishes me. A notorious beginner of
enterprises and non-finisher, partly through lack of time, partly
through lack of single-minded concentration, I still wonder how and
why I managed to peg away at this thing year after year, often
under real difficulties, and bring it to a conclusion. I suppose,
because from the beginning it began to catch up in its narrative
folds visions of most of the things that I have most loved or hated."
<snip>
>>> Pity they didn't keep the lighthouse beam pointing just to
>>> the northwest
>
> ;-)
The moving Eye-beam never bothered me much, despite all the ridicule
thrown at it by the ng. A fair enough book-to-film-media extrapolation
of what's already there in the text, a bit over-the-top yes, but let's
get real here folks -- our beloved book is in /itself/ a bit
over-the-top, too. <g> (You *know* it's true!)
>>> [13] Dying embers of Frodo's heart and will? What is this about?
>
> I have related this to Narya already -- it is perhaps even clearer
> in UT where Cķrdan wishes to give Narya into nobler hand than his,
> "that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage."
> The motif of awaking a fire in the heart, of fire as a symbol of
> personal strength (see e.g. Fėanor) is common in Tolkien, and that is
> what happens here: Frodo's will has been nearly subdued by his
> burden; by the breaking strain of his continuous battle with the
> Ring (e.g. resisting 'the Ring's lure to power', letter #181). His
> will was, I think, fully concentrated on the Ring, and he didn't
> care much about the world around him -- being torpid to the real
> world. The attempt to wrestle the Ring from him pulled him out of
> that state and awoke his will to focus, for a while at least, on
> external factors.
Well said. Both Frodo's will and his physical body are literally dying
here, I think, so that we should factor in sheer weakness as well. I
think of this passage more in terms of weariness (to the point of
death) than in terms of subjugation. Gollum's attempt to take the Ring
gives him an adrenaline response: both physical and 'will-full'.
<snip>
>>> [14] Simple question. What is going on here with a talking wheel of
>>> fire?
<snip>
> I am not sure exactly what is going on -- I believe that it is Frodo
> who is speaking, and that the power the Ring holds over the lives of
> these three Hobbits is somehow involved; awoken, perhaps, more than
> invoked, though I don't think Frodo intends this.
Awoken, yes, exactly. And it manifests in a more powerful manner here,
in accord with it growing stronger as it nears the place of its
forging.
<snip>
>> If Gollum were dead, then Sam would have been the only one left who
>> could try to stop Frodo when he claimed the Ring. I simply cannot
>> see Sam throwing Frodo into Sammath Naur.
>
> Exactly.
I can see him throwing both of them in, "in the last extremity of
need." But that probably wouldn't fit well with Tolkien's religion's
stance on suicide and murder...
>>> [17] Did Frodo fail or not?
Fail according to his explicitly stated purpose? No, for strictly
speaking his oath was to take the Ring to the Fire. Fail in destroying
the Ring by his own hand? Yes. Fail in spending himself utterly in
trying to do so? No. Do the good guys win by sheer luck / providence /
deus ex machina / the redeeming power of pity ? You darn betcha.
Note to folks who haven't read /Letters/: you MUST read Letter #246, it
discusses Sam and Frodo and all of these things in great detail and
astonishing passion. If you don't have /Letters/, of course you should
buy it, it's an essential. But I'd be willing to send folks the text
of Letter #246 over private email, if they asks, yess, if they asks
nicely, preciouss.
<snip>
> And to take up on Christopher's invitation to speak about
> eucatastrophe, this is indeed an example of a eucatastrophe -- "the
> sudden joyous 'turn'" -- "it is a sudden and miraculous grace: never
> to be counted on to recur." Gollum's theft of the Ring and
> subsequent fall into the crack fits the definition to a T: it is
> almost as if Tolkien uses this, and several later events in the
> book, to make a practical definition of 'eucatastrophe' in it's
> various forms
And one earlier event: the unexpected dawn, and the Ride of the
Rohirrim into that dawn on the Pelennor Fields. "....a cock crowed.
Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war,
welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of
death was coming with the dawn.
"And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns,
horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns
of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last."
Many goosebumps.
> It is, perhaps, more interesting whether Sauron is pitiable?
Hmm. I find Morgoth pitiable, but not Sauron. I wonder if that's just
childhood conditioning to fear Sauron? No, I think it has to do with
the fact that Morgoth is more of a person than Sauron. Even in the
legendarium or the history, we never meet Sauron face to face, only in
his bestial morphs. We never see or hear Annatar, or the goodly form S.
took in Numenor. And he is even less embodied in LotR, of course. But
Morgoth we see in human shape; he is scarred and wounded and a coward
at heart, defeated by lust and magic; he's actually quite human,
although powerful beyond imagining.
Ciaran S.
--
'That's a really nice coat you've got there.' - marv
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15627 ] |
Mi, 06 April 2005 21:40 |
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Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
<snip>
>> I read this as the Nazgul flew into the heart of the storm, emitting
>> a terrible cry, and were then caught in the "fiery ruin of hill and
>> sky". This caused them to appear like "flaming bolts" that "crackled,
>> withered and went out".
>
> Would there be any grammatical objection to the interpretation I
> suggested:
Even if there was a grammatical objection (I don't really know enough
about grammar to answer that), I wouldn't say that grammar should
over-ride aesthetic and literary considerations. If you can build an
argument for your case, don't let a few commas put you off!
In this case, with commas and whatnot, it is really punctuation. And not
all punctuation is for grammatical purposes. Sometimes it is for
stylistic reasons or for reasons of convention.
> "And into the heart of the storm (with a cry that pierced all
> other sounds) (tearing the clouds asunder) the Nazgūl came =>
> shooting like flaming bolts => as caught in the fiery ruin of
> hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out."
>
> Parentheses denoting parenthetical inserts, and '=>' denoting a
> sequentiality of the narrative.
Though maybe that should be:
"And into the heart of the storm (with a cry that pierced all other
sounds(tearing the clouds asunder)) the..."
:-)
Otherwise you can strip out "with a cry that pierced all other sounds",
and get left with:
"And into the heart of the storm (tearing the clouds asunder) the Nazgul
came..."
You have to retain a close link between the 'cry' and the 'tearing of
the clouds'. The one causes the other.
> I see the fiery death of the Nazgūl as a reflection of the detruction
> of the One Ring in the fire rather than an incidental result of their
> flying into a volcanic eruption. They were, IMO, 'caught in the fiery
> ruin' through the Ring; not through flying into the eruption.
This sounds 'correct', but maybe Tolkien didn't think it through? Are
you saying that the Nazgul would have burst into flame wherever they
were? Or would they only have "withered and gone out"?
Possibly a rephrasing of the sentence in question would produce a
sentence that I would say is more like your interpretation:
"And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other
sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgul came, caught in the fiery
ruin of hill and sky, as [,] shooting like flaming bolts [,] they
crackled, withered, and went out." [rephrased, and two commas inserted]
To me, the above construction makes the 'fiery ruin of hill and sky'
more of a parenthetical aside (and hence maybe not a causative factor),
and it makes one look elsewhere for the cause of the 'shooting like
flaming bolts' bit. In your case, looking to the destruction of the Ring
to have caused the Nazgul to burst into flames.
In contrast, the original:
"And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other
sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgul came, shooting like
flaming bolts, as [,] caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky [,] they
crackled, withered, and went out." [original, two commas inserted]
Feels different to me. Though I have now read that sentence enough times
to be totally and utterly confused!
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15669 ] |
Do, 07 April 2005 22:52 |
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Shanahan d31cji01lc3 [at] enews2.newsguy.com creatively typed:
> <snip>
> I can see him throwing both of them in, "in the last extremity of
> need." But that probably wouldn't fit well with Tolkien's religion's
> stance on suicide and murder...
I meant 'throwing both Frodo and himself in' here. Didn't mean to
imply that Sam would throw Frodo and Gollum in!
Ciaran S.
--
Sam will kill him if he tries anything.
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15726 ] |
Fr, 08 April 2005 03:09 |
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On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 13:52:33 -0700, "Shanahan"
<poguesDEL [at] ITbluefrog.com> wrote:
>Shanahan d31cji01lc3 [at] enews2.newsguy.com creatively typed:
>
>> <snip>
>> I can see him throwing both of them in, "in the last extremity of
>> need." But that probably wouldn't fit well with Tolkien's religion's
>> stance on suicide and murder...
>
>I meant 'throwing both Frodo and himself in' here. Didn't mean to
>imply that Sam would throw Frodo and Gollum in!
>
>Ciaran S.
Why not? Tolkien contemplated it.
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
"Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes..." -- Capt. James
T. Kirk
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #15732 ] |
Fr, 08 April 2005 07:47 |
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the softrat rdmb51d9bs8vjulp7dei6grvnf7uupimno [at] 4ax.com typed:
> "Shanahan" wrote:
>> I meant 'throwing both Frodo and himself in' here. Didn't mean to
>> imply that Sam would throw Frodo and Gollum in!
>
> Why not? Tolkien contemplated it.
>
Did he? What volume of HoME is that in? I had a look at Letter #246,
and at the textual history of this chapter in /Sauron Defeated:/ they
had Sam pushing Gollum in, Gollum throwing himself in, Frodo throwing
himself over, but no Sam pushing Frodo & Gollum in.
Thanks,
(Cool trivia for those without the HoME volumes:
Version A of this chapter, when Frodo claims the Ring, he says "I
/cannot/ /do/ what I have come to do", instead of "I /do not choose now
to do/...." CJRT dismisses the significance of this, but it seems
significant to me.)
Ciaran S.
--
"Y'know, that's a real nice coat you've got there." - marv
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #24861 ] |
Di, 26 April 2005 13:07 |
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On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:55 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
<Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>I've got quite a bit behind in these discussions -- I've been rather
>busy and it does take up quite a bit of time to stay abreast of the CotW
>discussions (currently I have about a hundred RABT/AFT posts that I
>would like to read in detail and respond to), but some chapters just
>/must/ receive some attention, and this is one of them.
Only a hundred? Count your blessings, my friend. :) A quick glance
at my newsreader reveals that I still have 25,829 messages to read
just from the Tolkien newsgroups alone - and that is AFTER deleting
all of the off-topic political threads! :-)
Morgoth's Curse
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #24864 ] |
Di, 26 April 2005 13:26 |
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Morgoth's Curse wrote:
>
> (snip) A quick glance
> at my newsreader reveals that I still have 25,829 messages to read
> just from the Tolkien newsgroups alone - and that is AFTER deleting
> all of the off-topic political threads! :-)
>
Isn't it an idea to join in the present discussions, and when you have
extra time on your hands, start from scratch with the 25,829 messages?
Henriette
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #24893 ] |
Di, 26 April 2005 22:14 |
|
Henriette (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<1114514814.469553.232410 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>:
> Morgoth's Curse wrote:
>>
>> (snip) A quick glance
>> at my newsreader reveals that I still have 25,829 messages to read
>> just from the Tolkien newsgroups alone - and that is AFTER deleting
>> all of the off-topic political threads! :-)
>>
> Isn't it an idea to join in the present discussions, and when you have
> extra time on your hands, start from scratch with the 25,829 messages?
>
> Henriette
I don't bother with threads that go too deep. Sooner or later the original
topic of discussion is exhausted and the thread degenerates into a slanging
match.
--
Pave puvasha li oviol! Gom vija lomash'udum sha taluba nu em sodil.
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #24905 ] |
Mi, 27 April 2005 03:20 |
|
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:14:56 +0100, Prai Jei
<pvstownsend [at] zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I don't bother with threads that go too deep. Sooner or later the original
>topic of discussion is exhausted and the thread degenerates into a slanging
>match.
Does not!
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Whoever said nothing is impossible never tried slamming a
revolving door.
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #24924 ] |
Mi, 27 April 2005 12:36 |
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Prai Jei wrote:
> Henriette (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
> > Isn't it an idea to join in the present discussions, and when you
have
> > extra time on your hands, start from scratch with the 25,829
messages?
> >
> I don't bother with threads that go too deep. Sooner or later the
original
> topic of discussion is exhausted and the thread degenerates into a
slanging
> match.
That's OK. Shallow posters are very welcome too:-)
> Pave puvasha li oviol! Gom vija lomash'udum sha taluba nu em sodil.
>
> Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Although this goes too deep for me. What *are* you saying?
Henriette
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #24985 ] |
Do, 28 April 2005 16:33 |
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"Prai Jei" <pvstownsend [at] zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d4m779$bgm$2 [at] news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Henriette (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
> <1114514814.469553.232410 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>:
>
> > Morgoth's Curse wrote:
> >>
> >> (snip) A quick glance
> >> at my newsreader reveals that I still have 25,829 messages to read
> >> just from the Tolkien newsgroups alone - and that is AFTER deleting
> >> all of the off-topic political threads! :-)
> >>
> > Isn't it an idea to join in the present discussions, and when you have
> > extra time on your hands, start from scratch with the 25,829 messages?
> >
> > Henriette
>
> I don't bother with threads that go too deep. Sooner or later the original
> topic of discussion is exhausted and the thread degenerates into a
slanging
> match.
No it effing doesn't you effing liar
sorry
--
Rhiannon_S
Yes, I am a fluffly bunny, but so was the one in Monty Python!
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #25018 ] |
Fr, 29 April 2005 01:09 |
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Rhiannon Sands <mddestiny [at] aol.com> wrote:
> "Prai Jei" <pvstownsend [at] zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>> I don't bother with threads that go too deep. Sooner or later the
>> original topic of discussion is exhausted and the thread degenerates
>> into a slanging match.
>
> No it effing doesn't you effing liar
I wonder if the phrase "effing" is becoming as effective as the real
thing in offending people? For some reason I found it offensive, even
though I could see it was a joke. Strange.
> sorry
That's quite alright! :-)
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #36677 ] |
Mo, 16 Mai 2005 09:05 |
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On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:39:04 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
>"R. Dan Henry" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:55 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
>><Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>>>reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
>>>the Pelennor Fields.
>>
>>Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
>>It's not clear this is anything but hedging on Tolkien's part; death
>>reduces one to impotence fairly effectively. The note is not about the
>>exact state of the Witch-King, but simply explaining why there would
>>be Eight rather than Nine Nazgul to confront Frodo at Mount Doom.
>
>I posted something similar. I didn't, and I believe Troels didn't,
>intend "reduced to impotence rather than destroyed" as a quote; we
>meant that Tolkien said "reduced to impotence" rather than
>"destroyed".
Yes, I realize that it isn't no quotation marks. I believe you miss
the point of my objection.
>Why would Tolkien hedge?
Habit? He often qualifies his statement or avoids saying more than the
narrator could know (although there are certainly exceptions).
The question also gets into some of the trickier details of how the
rings and the wraithing process work. We're having this discussion
because Tolkien nowhere nails down the fate of the Nazgul (although my
belief is that the Witch-King's spirit *was* held by his ring until
the One was destroyed, at which time all Nine experienced their proper
fate as Men).
Given that he isn't directly addressing the issue here, this really
shouldn't be treated as conclusive (although it is certainly
*evidence*). It is certainly never explicitly stated that the
ring-wraiths couldn't be killed, although that was clearly difficult.
It is also clear that what happened when Merry and Eowyn stabbed the
Witch-King was different from what happened when he was made
"formless" by Elrond's river fu.
>When you've killed an enemy, you don't say, "Well, I'm
>glad he's reduced to impotence."
What if you aren't sure if he's *technically* dead (which is the issue
here)? How do you check for an impotent spirit? What if you aren't
sure he was alive (rather than undead) to begin with?
>We think of Sauron after the downfall of Numenor and again after
>the War of the Last Alliance -- still alive, but powerless.
But bound to remain within the world until its ending, unlike the Men
who became ring-wraiths.
>The one thing we don't know is whether the W-K would have been able
>to take shape again eventually if the One Ring had remained intact,
>particularly if it was on Sauron's finger.
Sauron is the only one who might have understood the workings of the
rings so well that he could give an answer. Although even Sauron
appears to have not known what the rings would do in some cases, even
with respect to himself. The reporting nazgul with the despairing cry
doesn't seem too optimistic and Glorfindel referred to this "fall" of
the Witch-King as his "doom". (Although it can be argued that
Glorfindel's prophesy also foresaw that the Nazgul would all be done
in soon after and that is the true "doom".)
--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #47254 ] |
Di, 24 Mai 2005 07:26 |
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On 26 Apr 2005 04:26:54 -0700, "Henriette" <heldenib [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Morgoth's Curse wrote:
>>
>> (snip) A quick glance
>> at my newsreader reveals that I still have 25,829 messages to read
>> just from the Tolkien newsgroups alone - and that is AFTER deleting
>> all of the off-topic political threads! :-)
>>
>Isn't it an idea to join in the present discussions, and when you have
>extra time on your hands, start from scratch with the 25,829 messages?
>
>Henriette
And actually risk having to debate?!!! Next you will demand that I
actually be correct and provide quotes! ^___^
I have already given my reasons for answering old posts in the thread
"To Post or Not to Post" but, as a matter of fact, I don't expect to
respond to even ten percent of those posts. There is no point, for
example, in answering any of the posts that speculated about the
movies (except to occasionally gloat) or off-topic political posts
whose outcome has already been determined. Also, of course, I usually
find that somebody has already raised the point that I intended to
explain or examine. I usually only participate in a thread when I
feel that a valid issue has been overlooked.
Unfortunately, I don't have as much time to participate as I once had
since my parents are in poor health and need as much help as I can
give and I am also making a determined effort to organize all of the
paperwork, magazines, books, et cetera that have cluttered my home
during the past few years. I still intend to participate in this
community, however, and will continue to lurk and post as frequently
as my schedule permits. :)
Morgoth's Curse
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #47263 ] |
Di, 24 Mai 2005 08:25 |
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Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002 [at] nospamyahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
> I have already given my reasons for answering old posts in the thread
> "To Post or Not to Post" but, as a matter of fact, I don't expect to
> respond to even ten percent of those posts. There is no point, for
> example, in answering any of the posts that speculated about the
> movies (except to occasionally gloat) or off-topic political posts
> whose outcome has already been determined. Also, of course, I usually
> find that somebody has already raised the point that I intended to
> explain or examine. I usually only participate in a thread when I
> feel that a valid issue has been overlooked.
Thanks for the recent comments. I liked the one about the possibly even
earlier origins of the dike near in Tom Bombadil's country.
> Unfortunately, I don't have as much time to participate as I once had
> since my parents are in poor health and need as much help as I can
> give and I am also making a determined effort to organize all of the
> paperwork, magazines, books, et cetera that have cluttered my home
> during the past few years.
Sorry to hear that. Good luck with the tidying!
> I still intend to participate in this
> community, however, and will continue to lurk and post as frequently
> as my schedule permits. :)
Glad to hear that! I actually find it rather nice to have these old
threads pop up now and again. I may even venture to the dark side myself
now and again...
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom [message #49752 ] |
So, 29 Mai 2005 20:39 |
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Morgoth's Curse wrote:
> On 26 Apr 2005 04:26:54 -0700, "Henriette" <heldenib [at] hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >Isn't it an idea to join in the present discussions, and when you have
> >extra time on your hands, start from scratch with the 25,829 messages?
> >
> And actually risk having to debate?!!! (snip)
That *is* scary;-)
> (snip) I usually only participate in a thread when I
> feel that a valid issue has been overlooked.
But in order to do that, you'll perfectionalistically have to study the
whole thread first!
> Unfortunately, I don't have as much time to participate as I once had
> since my parents are in poor health and need as much help as I can
> give
I am sorry to hear that. It sounds like a hard thing having to do, even
if you were in perfect health yourself.
> and I am also making a determined effort to organize all of the
> paperwork, magazines, books, et cetera that have cluttered my home
> during the past few years.
I threw away a lot of paperwork today, and it feels great!
> I still intend to participate in this
> community, however, and will continue to lurk and post as frequently
> as my schedule permits. :)
Please do, and let it be as much of a pleasure and as little of a duty
as you can!
Henriette
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