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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » The Ring of power
The Ring of power [message #15251] Mo, 28 März 2005 07:23
Sean  
In article "The Ring" Kerameus Trichinos wrote:

> Why did Sauron want The Ring back so badly. What would it have
> DONE for him?

Restored his full power.

Or, perhaps you're asking what power itself would have done
for Sauron.

A major theme of _The Lord of the Rings_ is the lust for power
and domination. Even in a courtship scene the lady speaks
in those terms:

'Then must I leave my own people, man of Gondor?' she said.
'And would you have your proud folk say of you: "There goes
a lord who tamed a wild shieldmaiden of the North!"'

To be "tamed" is to relinquish one's wild spirit and yield
to the will of another.

Obviously, not all forms of domination and submission are evil.
For instance, Prince Imrahil says, "the Lord Aragorn I hold to be
my liege-lord, whether he claim it nor no." Pippin is moved by
pride to offer his service to the Steward of Gondor.

Some characters in the story are willing to comply with the will
of others -- if there's a payoff. Eowyn comes to realize that being
tamed by Faramir will bring her the pleasures of love as well as
healing from the psychic wounds and despair inflicted by the enemies
Saruman (via Wormtongue) and Sauron (via the chief Nazgul).

On the darker side, the nine shades of mortal kings were willing
to submit to the Dark Lord. What was their payoff? What satisfaction
could make becoming a Ringwraith worthwhile?

Even of Sauron himself, Elron said: "For nothing is evil in
the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." Presumably Sauron decided
at some point that embracing evil would pay off in some way.

The theme of another great Ring story, _Der Ring des Nibelungen_
is the pursuit of power upon despairing of love. Alberecht the
Nibelung tries to court the beautiful Rhine daughters, who
scornfully reject him. In despair he foreswears love, which enables
him to steal the magic Rhine gold from which he (or his brother)
forges a Ring of Power.

Eventually he produces a son (Hagen) whose mother's cooperation
he has purchased rather than taken in love (an early form
of womb rental).

Perhaps the villains in Tolkien's story have also despaired of love.
The Nazgul could all have been guys who couldn't get dates, and were
easily lured by Sauron's offer of an exciting adventure riding around
the skies on pteranodons and getting whatever satisfaction bullies
get from their bullying.

Wormtongue apparently had a crush on Eowyn, but knowing he was
too lowbrow for her made him easy prey for the blandishments
of Saruman.

And Sauron himself had lost his bodily form in the fall of Numenor,
becoming unable ever again to assume a form that seemed fair
to men (or, even worse I suppose, women).

"Let them hate us, so long as they fear us," said an ancient
Roman (Cato?), who didn't seem to care about being unpopular
around Middle Earth (ie, the 'Mediterranean'). This thread runs
through Roman history right from the start, when the early Latins
got their women (the Sabine girls) by force, rather than by wooing.

Perhaps the answer to your question is that if Sauron had regained
the Ring, he would have been enabled to spend the next Age
("while this world lasts") terrorizing everyone to amuse himself,
and as a distraction from his essential loneliness.

Sean
Re: The Ring of power [message #15252 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 07:43
OMeallyMD  
Sean wrote:
> In article "The Ring" Kerameus Trichinos wrote:
>
>> Why did Sauron want The Ring back so badly. What would it have
>> DONE for him?
>
> Restored his full power.

<snip>

But why did this require your starting a new thread to respond to his
question?
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: The Ring of power [message #15253 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 09:59
Michele Fry  
In article <4247975D.579300BC [at] no.spam>, Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> writes

>Even of Sauron himself, Elron said: "For nothing is evil in
>the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." Presumably Sauron decided
>at some point that embracing evil would pay off in some way.

This is a bit nonsensical, I think. I doubt anyone actually consciously
sets out to embrace evil - I think most people probably just decide on a
course of action to pursue and then pursue it ruthlessly, ignoring the
will or rights of others, and it is in that that the evil lies. I very
much doubt anyone evil (supply your own evil guy/girl names) actually
sits down one day and says to themselves "I'm going to embrace evil as
the means of getting what I want", instead they'll decide they want more
power, and work out how to achieve it, realising that, for instance,
wiping out those who oppose them, or enslaving a group of people, will
help them achieve that power...

Michele
==
There is no book so bad that it is not profitable on some part.

- Pliny the Younger
==
Now reading: Tolkien and the Critics - N D Isaacs & R A Zimbado
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
==
Commit random acts of literacy! Read & Release at Bookcrossing:
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==
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email : michele [at] sassoonery.demon.co.uk
Re: The Ring of power [message #15254 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 11:20
Christopher Kreuzer  
Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote:

<snip>

> The theme of another great Ring story, _Der Ring des Nibelungen_
> is the pursuit of power upon despairing of love. Alberecht the
> Nibelung tries to court the beautiful Rhine daughters, who
> scornfully reject him. In despair he foreswears love, which enables
> him to steal the magic Rhine gold from which he (or his brother)
> forges a Ring of Power.

<snip>

The first part of /Der Ring des Nibelungen/ was on BBC TV last night,
with the Valkyrie bit tonight. They are making a big thing about it
being the first time in ages it has been performed by the Royal Opera. I
started watching it, but even with English subtitles I found the German
singing soporific and the story moving too slowly!

Did anyone else see this?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: The Ring of power [message #15255 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 14:21
Pete Gray  
In article <Tw7eMSAkl7RCFwqS [at] sassoonery.demon.co.uk>,
michele [at] sassoonery.demon.co.uk says...
> In article <4247975D.579300BC [at] no.spam>, Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> writes
>
> >Even of Sauron himself, Elron said: "For nothing is evil in
> >the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." Presumably Sauron decided
> >at some point that embracing evil would pay off in some way.
>
> This is a bit nonsensical, I think. I doubt anyone actually consciously
> sets out to embrace evil - I think most people probably just decide on a
> course of action to pursue and then pursue it ruthlessly, ignoring the
> will or rights of others, and it is in that that the evil lies. I very
> much doubt anyone evil (supply your own evil guy/girl names) actually
> sits down one day and says to themselves "I'm going to embrace evil as
> the means of getting what I want", instead they'll decide they want more

You mean like Tommy in Rugrats:
<http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/5458/bebad.wav>

> power, and work out how to achieve it, realising that, for instance,
> wiping out those who oppose them, or enslaving a group of people, will
> help them achieve that power...
>

< http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Boardwalk/8886/nowbad.wa v>

--
Pete Gray

Say No to ID Cards <http://www.no2id.net>
<http://www.redbadge.co.uk/no2idcards/>
Re: The Ring of power [message #15257 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 16:21
OMeallyMD  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> The first part of /Der Ring des Nibelungen/ was on BBC TV last night,
> with the Valkyrie bit tonight. They are making a big thing about it
> being the first time in ages it has been performed by the Royal
> Opera. I started watching it, but even with English subtitles I found
> the German singing soporific and the story moving too slowly!
>
> Did anyone else see this?

No, but I'm leaving today for Chicago to spend the week down there for
the Lyric's production of 'the Ring.' :-)

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: The Ring of power [message #15258 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 10:45
Dirk Thierbach  
Michele Fry <michele [at] sassoonery.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4247975D.579300BC [at] no.spam>, Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> writes

>>Even of Sauron himself, Elron said: "For nothing is evil in
>>the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." Presumably Sauron decided
>>at some point that embracing evil would pay off in some way.

> This is a bit nonsensical, I think. I doubt anyone actually consciously
> sets out to embrace evil - I think most people probably just decide on a
> course of action to pursue and then pursue it ruthlessly, ignoring the
> will or rights of others, and it is in that that the evil lies.

And additionally, the statement of Elrond should be seen mostly in a
"theologoical" context: In the LotR, Evil is "fallen" Good. Evil is
*not* an antagonist on the same level with Good.

If you want, you can take the process of "deciding" (though, as Michele
said, this would happen gradually) that embracing evil does "pay off"
as the process of "falling". And moreover, this often happens with
the best intentions at the beginning (Tolkien gives lots of examples
for that, including Morgoth, and those who are aware of these dangers,
as Gandalf and Galadriel).

- Dirk
Re: The Ring of power [message #15259 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 18:02
Sean  
Bill O'Meally wrote:

> But why did this require your starting a new thread to respond to his
> question?

My focus was on the nature of power itself, for Good as well as Evil,
and not so much on the Ring and its properties.

Even the "Free" Peoples of Middle Earth are subject to authority;
they're not blessed with unlimited freedom. The threat of the Enemy
makes the need for a power structure more urgent.

One of Tolkien's messages seems to be that for them it is Love
that redeems power:

'For upon that road I was put to shame: Gimli Gloin's son,
who deemed himself more tough than Men, and hardier under earth
than any Elf. but neither did I prove; and I was held to the road
only by the will of Aragorn.'

'And by the love of him also,' said Legolas. 'For all those who
come to know him come to love him after his own fashion, even
the cold maiden of the Rohirrim.'

Sean
Re: The Ring of power [message #15260 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 18:21
Robert Kolker  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

>
> Did anyone else see this?

It ain't over until the Fat Lady sings.

Bob Kolker
Re: The Ring of power [message #15264 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 20:41
Prai Jei  
Christopher Kreuzer (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in
message <K%P1e.6887$Ab.4306 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:

> Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> The theme of another great Ring story, _Der Ring des Nibelungen_
>> is the pursuit of power upon despairing of love. Alberecht the
>> Nibelung tries to court the beautiful Rhine daughters, who
>> scornfully reject him. In despair he foreswears love, which enables
>> him to steal the magic Rhine gold from which he (or his brother)
>> forges a Ring of Power.
>
> <snip>
>
> The first part of /Der Ring des Nibelungen/ was on BBC TV last night,
> with the Valkyrie bit tonight. They are making a big thing about it
> being the first time in ages it has been performed by the Royal Opera. I
> started watching it, but even with English subtitles I found the German
> singing soporific and the story moving too slowly!
>
> Did anyone else see this?
>
> Christopher

Didn't think much of it when I switched on for a few minutes earlier. As of
now (7.30pm) we should be about half-way through it but BBC2 seemed to have
something else on entirely. Have they interrupted it to bring details of
the latest Indonesian earthquake? (Strange that that has happend on the day
after Easter, following on from the one the day after Christmas.)
--
Paul Townsend
Pair them off into threes

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Re: The Ring of power [message #15265 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 20:45
Stan Brown  
"Michele Fry" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>In article <4247975D.579300BC [at] no.spam>, Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> writes
>
>>Even of Sauron himself, Elron said: "For nothing is evil in
>>the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." Presumably Sauron decided
>>at some point that embracing evil would pay off in some way.
>
>This is a bit nonsensical, I think. I doubt anyone actually consciously
>sets out to embrace evil - I think most people probably just decide on a
>course of action to pursue and then pursue it ruthlessly, ignoring the
>will or rights of others, and it is in that that the evil lies.

Very well said, Michele! I was thning how to frame my own reply on
that point, but you did it better than I would have.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Different evils of Sauron and Morgoth (Re: The Ring of power) [message #15267 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 21:02
Stan Brown  
"Dirk Thierbach" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>And moreover, this often happens with
>the best intentions at the beginning (Tolkien gives lots of examples
>for that, including Morgoth, and those who are aware of these dangers,
>as Gandalf and Galadriel).

And those who started with good intentions may have included Sauron=20
himself. In the famous Letter 131 we read "In the Silmarillion and=20
Tales of the First Age Sauron ... repents in fear when the First=20
Enemy is utterly defeated, but in the end does not do as was=20
commanded, return to the judgement of the gods. He lingers in=20
Middle-earth. Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the=20
reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth,=20
'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a=20
thing lusting for Complete Power =3D3F and so consumed ever more=20
fiercely with hate (especially of gods and Elves)."

I visualize Sauron starting as a "reformer", telling himself he is=20
concerned with rebuilding Middle-earth after the devastation of the=20
wars. But Elves and Men have their own agendas, and are not always=20
willing to accept direction from so obviously superior a being. So=20
gradually he shifts from advising to commanding, and from command=20
for the sake of good to command for the sake of command. By the=20
middle of the Second Age any original good intentions were surely=20
gone. All the habits of his mind would push him anyway to try to=20
make himself dictator of the world.

Morgoth/Melkor, on the other hand, I think had no good motives. We=20
have to believe that he was originally good, since Eru would not=20
have created an evil being, but he turned to evil before Eru called=20
the Ainur together to make the Great Music. (Eru's rebuke after the=20
first theme, I think, shows that he knew this.) By the time of E=E4,=20
his motives were purely evil and in fact nihilistic. He was no=20
longer trying to create anythig of his own, just to destroy or at=20
least spoil everything the Valar did.

Somewhere Tolkien made a point of the difference between Morgoth in=20
the First Age and Sauron in the Third: Sauron wanted to rule=20
everything, but Morgoth wanted to destroy everything. Both were=20
thoroughly bad, of course, but it was different types of badness=20
and they got to it through different paths.

--=20
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: The Ring of power [message #15268 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 21:03
Stan Brown  
"Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>The first part of /Der Ring des Nibelungen/ was on BBC TV last night,
>with the Valkyrie bit tonight. They are making a big thing about it
>being the first time in ages it has been performed by the Royal Opera. I
>started watching it, but even with English subtitles I found the German
>singing soporific and the story moving too slowly!

Just remember, Wagner's music is better than it sounds. :-)

If you can, get hold of Deryck Cooke's two-CD analysis of the Ring.
Then you'll know what you're listening to.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Different evils of Sauron and Morgoth (Re: The Ring of power) [message #15269 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 21:13
Robert Kolker  
Stan Brown wrote:


> Morgoth/Melkor, on the other hand, I think had no good motives.

I read in the Sil that Morgoth wanted the power to make things of his
own devising and he was upset that Eru Iluvator was leaving the great
emptiness empty. Melkor was itching to do something but he did not have
the power. All he could do was bugger what others were doing. So
Melkor's original sin, as it were, was the yen to do something all of
his own, and not merely carry out Eru's program.

Bob Kolker
Re: The Ring of power [message #15270 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 21:14
Robert Kolker  
Stan Brown wrote:
> Just remember, Wagner's music is better than it sounds. :-)
>
> If you can, get hold of Deryck Cooke's two-CD analysis of the Ring.
> Then you'll know what you're listening to.

It ain't over until the Fat Lady sings.

Bob Kolker

>
Re: The Ring of power [message #15271 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 21:39
Michele Fry  
In article <3ar1m4F6dt887U1 [at] individual.net>, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> writes

>Very well said, Michele! I was thning how to frame my own reply on
>that point, but you did it better than I would have.

Thanks. I confess I'm always puzzled by people who say that someone has
embraced Evil - after all, it's an abstract thing and people who commit
evil deeds rarely see those deeds as evil, they see them as being a
means to an end (usually power)... I'm just thinking about Harold
Shipman, the GP who murdered all those elderly patients of his - I
presume he knew that what he was doing was wrong because of the
Hippocratic Oath, but I'm not convinced he considered it was evil - in
some weird way, I think maybe he thought it was OK, because they were
older and going to die anyway, and besides the power to kill was his to
wield... Hmm... I don't think I'm going to go any further down that path
- it's too puzzling for me...

Michele
==
There is no book so bad that it is not profitable on some part.

- Pliny the Younger
==
Now reading: Tolkien and the Critics - N D Isaacs & R A Zimbado
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire - J K Rowling
==
Commit random acts of literacy! Read & Release at Bookcrossing:
http://www.bookcrossing.com/friend/Sass-80
Re: The Ring of power [message #15272 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 22:01
Tar-Elenion  
In article <3ar1m4F6dt887U1 [at] individual.net>, the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm
says...
> "Michele Fry" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> >In article <4247975D.579300BC [at] no.spam>, Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> writes
> >
> >>Even of Sauron himself, Elron said: "For nothing is evil in
> >>the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." Presumably Sauron decided
> >>at some point that embracing evil would pay off in some way.
> >
> >This is a bit nonsensical, I think. I doubt anyone actually consciously
> >sets out to embrace evil - I think most people probably just decide on a
> >course of action to pursue and then pursue it ruthlessly, ignoring the
> >will or rights of others, and it is in that that the evil lies.
>
> Very well said, Michele! I was thning how to frame my own reply on
> that point, but you did it better than I would have.
>
>
"Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not
object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he
liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that
descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his
virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse)
that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and
wasteful friction.(It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to
effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted
Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so
still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to
think and do, even without the aid of palantiri or of spies; whereas
Gandalf eluded and puzzled him. But like all minds of this cast,
Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other
individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only
real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and
organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting
Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his 'plans', the idea coming
from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an
end, the End, in itself. *
*[footnote to the text]But his capability of corrupting other minds,
and even engaging their service, was a residue from the fact that his
original desire for 'order' had really envisaged the good estate
(especially physical well-being) of his 'subjects'.)"

Morgoths Ring, Myths Transformed

--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
Re: The Ring of power [message #15274 ] Di, 29 März 2005 01:10
stephen  
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote:

: On the darker side, the nine shades of mortal kings were willing
: to submit to the Dark Lord. What was their payoff? What satisfaction
: could make becoming a Ringwraith worthwhile?

The Ringwraith's had no choice once they accepted the rings.
They were given Rings of Power by a seemingly wise and powerful
being. Taking the Rings was not really an evil act. Humans
had received gifts from the Elves, Maiar and Ainur before, and
the mortals in question had no way of discerning Sauron's true
nature, nor the true nature of the Rings. At some level the
perhaps would have known they were taking a shortcut of some sort,
and therefore sinning in the same way the Elves did when they
created the Rings in the first place.

Once they had the Rings they were unable to resist the power
of Sauron and were eventually corrupted and became
Ringwraiths.
"They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes
in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things
in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they
beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And
one by one, sooner or later, according to their native
strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the
beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring
they bore and under the domination of the One, which
was Sauron's."
They did not choose to become Ringwraiths.

Stephen
Re: The Ring of power [message #15276 ] Mi, 30 März 2005 05:02
aelfwina  
"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:3ar2oiF6dt887U3 [at] individual.net...
> Just remember, Wagner's music is better than it sounds. :-)
>
> If you can, get hold of Deryck Cooke's two-CD analysis of the Ring.
> Then you'll know what you're listening to.

Personally, I prefer Anna Russell's version. ("Did I mention she was his
*aunt*?) *chuckle*
Barbara

>
> --
> Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
> http://OakRoadSystems.com
> Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
> Tolkien letters FAQ:
> http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
> FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
> Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
> more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: The Ring of power [message #15277 ] Di, 29 März 2005 05:42
Sean  
Stan Brown wrote:

> If you can, get hold of Deryck Cooke's two-CD analysis of the Ring.
> Then you'll know what you're listening to.

An excellent idea. The musical examples consist of special
illustrations as well as excerpts from the classic Georg Solti
Vienna recordings (1958-1965). I got the 2-CD set here in Canada
on the London (Decca) label, # 443 581-2. The full album title is
"An Introduction To Der Ring Des Nibelungen".

Some of Wagner's lietmotifs are readily applicable to plot elements
in Tolkien's stories. For instance, the Tarnhelm theme from
_Das Rhinegold_ is about the most sinister sounding music
I've ever heard.

Sean
Re: The Ring of power [message #15278 ] Di, 29 März 2005 07:06
Stan Brown  
"Sean" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Stan Brown wrote:
>
>> If you can, get hold of Deryck Cooke's two-CD analysis of the Ring.
>> Then you'll know what you're listening to.
>
>An excellent idea. The musical examples consist of special
>illustrations as well as excerpts from the classic Georg Solti
>Vienna recordings (1958-1965). I got the 2-CD set here in Canada
>on the London (Decca) label, # 443 581-2. The full album title is
>"An Introduction To Der Ring Des Nibelungen".

And the Solti recordings are (or were) available in a boxed set of
15 CDs, with sub-boxes for the four parts of the trilogy. Sonically
the transfer to CD was really excellent; a you've said, the
performances themselves are classics.

Then of course there's /The Anna Russell Album/, one CD whose
signature piece is her 20-minute analysis of the Ring. "So
Siegfried gives Brunnhilde the Ring. [pause] She's his aunt, by the
way."

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: The Ring of power [message #15279 ] Di, 29 März 2005 07:51
Sean  
Stan Brown wrote:

> Then of course there's /The Anna Russell Album/, one CD whose
> signature piece is her 20-minute analysis of the Ring. "So
> Siegfried gives Brunnhilde the Ring. [pause] She's his aunt, by the
> way."

I laughed myself silly over it... she starts out with Alberecht
_under_ the Rhine: "In the Holland Tunnel, as it were."

Sean
Re: The Ring of power [message #15280 ] Di, 29 März 2005 07:52
Sean  
aelfwina wrote:

> Personally, I prefer Anna Russell's version. ("Did I mention she was his
> *aunt*?) *chuckle*
> Barbara

A classic in musical humour ... I also liked her Gilbert & Sullivan
spoof.

Sean
Re: Different evils of Sauron and Morgoth (Re: The Ring of power) [message #15281 ] Di, 29 März 2005 07:57
Sean  
Stan Brown wrote:

> I visualize Sauron starting as a "reformer", telling himself he is
> concerned with rebuilding Middle-earth after the devastation of the
> wars. But Elves and Men have their own agendas, and are not always
> willing to accept direction from so obviously superior a being. So
> gradually he shifts from advising to commanding, and from command
> for the sake of good to command for the sake of command. By the
> middle of the Second Age any original good intentions were surely
> gone. All the habits of his mind would push him anyway to try to
> make himself dictator of the world.

Is that something like the attitude of the colonial powers, who
convinced themselves that they were "helping" the subject peoples
"for their own good"?

For a classic example of this kind of thinking, see Kipling's
poem "Kitchener's School":

http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/kitcheners_sch ool.html

Sean
Re: Different evils of Sauron and Morgoth (Re: The Ring of power) [message #15282 ] Di, 29 März 2005 08:09
Sean  
Robert Kolker wrote:
>
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
> > Morgoth/Melkor, on the other hand, I think had no good motives.
>
> I read in the Sil that Morgoth wanted the power to make things of his
> own devising and he was upset that Eru Iluvator was leaving the great
> emptiness empty. Melkor was itching to do something but he did not have
> the power.

However, didn't one of the Valar create Durin's folk? (And another
one the Ents?) These creations had to "sleep" until the legitimate
First and Second Born had arisen, but the point being that at least
two of the Vala were permitted some degree of creativity.

Therefore why not let Melkor create whatever he was itching to do...
perhaps a race of sentient amphibians... for a view of what might
have been, see _War with the Newts_ by Karel Capek (1890-1938),
the Czech writer who also coined the term "robot".

Sean
Re: Different evils of Sauron and Morgoth (Re: The Ring of power) [message #15284 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 22:43
Dirk Thierbach  
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:

> I visualize Sauron starting as a "reformer", telling himself he is
> concerned with rebuilding Middle-earth after the devastation of the
> wars. But Elves and Men have their own agendas, and are not always
> willing to accept direction from so obviously superior a being. So
> gradually he shifts from advising to commanding, and from command
> for the sake of good to command for the sake of command.

> Morgoth/Melkor, on the other hand, I think had no good motives.

I think he had, and somewhat similar ones. In the music, it is said
"it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own
imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar [...]
for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own,
and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void,
and he was impatient of its emptiness."

So his intentions were to create things of his own, and to imitate
and maybe even surpass Eru in this way. But in catholic context, that's
hybris, and can only lead to evil.

The story of Aule is quite similar, but he accepts "direction from
so obviously superior a being" (in this case, Eru :-), and repents,
and so is saved.

> By the time of Eä, his motives were purely evil and in fact
> nihilistic. He was no longer trying to create anythig of his own,
> just to destroy or at least spoil everything the Valar did.

Maybe. But note the "no longer" -- this implies good motives in
the beginning.

> Somewhere Tolkien made a point of the difference between Morgoth in
> the First Age and Sauron in the Third: Sauron wanted to rule
> everything, but Morgoth wanted to destroy everything. Both were
> thoroughly bad, of course, but it was different types of badness
> and they got to it through different paths.

Ack.

- Dirk
Re: The Ring of power [message #15288 ] Mi, 30 März 2005 16:50
aelfwina  
"Sean" <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote in message news:4248EFC6.95B22D5F [at] no.spam...
> aelfwina wrote:
>
>> Personally, I prefer Anna Russell's version. ("Did I mention she was his
>> *aunt*?) *chuckle*
>> Barbara
>
> A classic in musical humour ... I also liked her Gilbert & Sullivan
> spoof.
>
Oh, mercy yes! I laugh myself sick every time I listen to her CD. But it's
a shame, most people don't have the references to "get" her humor anymore.
I was listening to it in the truck with my sister once, who did not
understand what was so funny at all. You can't really laugh at a spoof if
you aren't at least somewhat familiar with the original.
Barbara


> Sean
Re: The Ring of power [message #15289 ] Di, 29 März 2005 18:04
Robert Kolker  
Sean wrote:

>
> Some of Wagner's lietmotifs are readily applicable to plot elements
> in Tolkien's stories. For instance, the Tarnhelm theme from
> _Das Rhinegold_ is about the most sinister sounding music
> I've ever heard.

What did you expect? Wagner had membership #2 in the Nazi Partei.

Bob Kolker
Re: Different evils of Sauron and Morgoth (Re: The Ring of power) [message #15290 ] Di, 29 März 2005 18:09
Robert Kolker  
Sean wrote:

>
> http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/kitcheners_sch ool.html

I have really got to re-read Kipling's poetry. That man is so, so --
Right on the Mark, it brings tears to my eyes. He say right through all
that "Empahhhh" shit. If a poet has one task in life it is to tell the
Truth, and Kipling did that right excellently.

Lest we forget, Lest we forget.

Bob Kolker
Re: Different evils of Sauron and Morgoth (Re: The Ring of power) [message #15292 ] Di, 29 März 2005 18:16
jwkenne  
Sean wrote:
> Robert Kolker wrote:
>
>>Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Morgoth/Melkor, on the other hand, I think had no good motives.
>>
>>I read in the Sil that Morgoth wanted the power to make things of his
>>own devising and he was upset that Eru Iluvator was leaving the great
>>emptiness empty. Melkor was itching to do something but he did not have
>>the power.
>
>
> However, didn't one of the Valar create Durin's folk? (And another
> one the Ents?) These creations had to "sleep" until the legitimate
> First and Second Born had arisen, but the point being that at least
> two of the Vala were permitted some degree of creativity.

Not quite. Aulë created puppets, which Eru subsequently endowed with
true life; and Yavanna is only recorded as requesting the Ents, not
creating them (the Eagles being a similar case).
--
John W. Kennedy
"Sweet, was Christ crucified to create this chat?"
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
Re: The Ring of power [message #15293 ] Mo, 28 März 2005 19:12
John Jones  
"Pete Gray" <news [at] redbadge.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cb2072b96647c42989699 [at] news.zen.co.uk...
> In article <Tw7eMSAkl7RCFwqS [at] sassoonery.demon.co.uk>,
> michele [at] sassoonery.demon.co.uk says...
> > In article <4247975D.579300BC [at] no.spam>, Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> writes
> >
> > >Even of Sauron himself, Elron said: "For nothing is evil in
> > >the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." Presumably Sauron decided
> > >at some point that embracing evil would pay off in some way.
> >
> > This is a bit nonsensical, I think. I doubt anyone actually consciously
> > sets out to embrace evil - I think most people probably just decide on a
> > course of action to pursue and then pursue it ruthlessly, ignoring the
> > will or rights of others, and it is in that that the evil lies. I very
> > much doubt anyone evil (supply your own evil guy/girl names) actually
> > sits down one day and says to themselves "I'm going to embrace evil as
> > the means of getting what I want", instead they'll decide they want more
>
> You mean like Tommy in Rugrats:

Or, more sensibly, Richard III (Shakespeare).
Re: Different evils of Sauron and Morgoth (Re: The Ring of power) [message #15294 ] Di, 29 März 2005 18:25
Robert Kolker  
Sean wrote:
> Therefore why not let Melkor create whatever he was itching to do...
> perhaps a race of sentient amphibians... for a view of what might
> have been, see _War with the Newts_ by Karel Capek (1890-1938),
> the Czech writer who also coined the term "robot".

Melkor wanted to make his own cosmos in toto from the ground out. He had
very large ambitions, which was precisely the source of his trouble. The
other Ainar were willing to participate in the Music of Eru and
subordinate their own itching to the Themes that Illuvatar propose.
Melkor simply would not march to the beat of Eru's drum. He wanted his
very own parade. In short he wanted to BE Eru, which he could not. That
rankled him and lead to very bad behaviour. Perhaps Eru was mistaken in
making Melkor and perhaps not. Maybe the ultimate perfection of Eru's
world required the misery and evil done by Melkor.

Now you know why I take mathematics and quantum electrodynamics
seriously and not theology.

Bob Kolker
Re: Different evils of Sauron and Morgoth (Re: The Ring of power) [message #15295 ] Di, 29 März 2005 18:28
Robert Kolker  
Dirk Thierbach wrote:

>
>
> Maybe. But note the "no longer" -- this implies good motives in
> the beginning.

Not good motives. Mistaken motives. Wanting to be the maker of one's
very own cosmos is not evil per se, but when all is subordinated to that
end, evil may ensue. There can only be one Eru and Melkor is not He. The
job was already taken.

I was thinking of the Jim Carey comedy -Bruce Almighty-. God (in the
persona of Morgan Freeman) teaches Bruce a lesson by granting him his
wish, that he have a chance to do better than God himself. That did the
trick.

Bob Kolker
Re: The Ring of power [message #15304 ] Mi, 30 März 2005 06:20
Stan Brown  
"Sean" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Stan Brown wrote:
>
>> Then of course there's /The Anna Russell Album/, one CD whose
>> signature piece is her 20-minute analysis of the Ring. "So
>> Siegfried gives Brunnhilde the Ring. [pause] She's his aunt, by the
>> way."
>
>I laughed myself silly over it... she starts out with Alberecht
>_under_ the Rhine: "In the Holland Tunnel, as it were."

Has anybody got a recording of her analysis of /Nabucco/ ? I saw
her do it live in Philadelphia in about 1976, but I've never been
able to find a recording.

(/Hamletto, or Prosciuttino/, I did find on CD. "As you know, Verdi
has made operas out of many of the Shakespeare plays. He has not,
as a matter of fact, made one out of Hamlet, but I'm not for a
moment going to let that stand in my way.")

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: The Ring of power [message #15305 ] Mi, 30 März 2005 06:23
Stan Brown  
"Robert Kolker" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Sean wrote:
>
>>
>> Some of Wagner's lietmotifs are readily applicable to plot elements
>> in Tolkien's stories. For instance, the Tarnhelm theme from
>> _Das Rhinegold_ is about the most sinister sounding music
>> I've ever heard.
>
>What did you expect? Wagner had membership #2 in the Nazi Partei.

Not a bad trick, since he died forty years before it was formed.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: The Ring of power [message #15306 ] Mi, 30 März 2005 06:24
Stan Brown  
"" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>The Ringwraith's had no choice once they accepted the rings.
>They were given Rings of Power by a seemingly wise and powerful
>being. Taking the Rings was not really an evil act.

I beg to differ.

The Three rings were about healing and preserving, not evil motives
but still not wholly good. The Nine were about gaining forbidden
knownedge and asserting control and power over others.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: The Ring of power [message #15307 ] Mi, 30 März 2005 06:52
Robert Kolker  
Stan Brown wrote:

>
> Not a bad trick, since he died forty years before it was formed.

a slight exagerration of course. In spirit, but not in fact, Wagner was
one of the first Nazis.

Bob Kolker

>
Re: The Ring of power [message #15308 ] Mi, 30 März 2005 07:26
AC  
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:23:14 -0500,
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
> "Robert Kolker" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>Sean wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Some of Wagner's lietmotifs are readily applicable to plot elements
>>> in Tolkien's stories. For instance, the Tarnhelm theme from
>>> _Das Rhinegold_ is about the most sinister sounding music
>>> I've ever heard.
>>
>>What did you expect? Wagner had membership #2 in the Nazi Partei.
>
> Not a bad trick, since he died forty years before it was formed.

Yeah, but why let a little thing like facts get in the way of attempting to
score a rhetorical point.

--
mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com
Re: The Ring of power [message #15309 ] Mi, 30 März 2005 07:30
stephen  
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
: "" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
:>The Ringwraith's had no choice once they accepted the rings.
:>They were given Rings of Power by a seemingly wise and powerful
:>being. Taking the Rings was not really an evil act.

: I beg to differ.

: The Three rings were about healing and preserving, not evil motives
: but still not wholly good. The Nine were about gaining forbidden
: knownedge and asserting control and power over others.

Do you think Sauron told the men he gave the Rings to that that
was their purpose? Celebrimbor was unable to determine that
Sauron was evil. Why would the mortals who Sauron approached
be able to recognize Sauron's evil? And if they did not
know that Sauron was evil, why would they ever think the Rings
were evil? Humans had received items of power from Elves
before, such as the Palantiri, so there is nothing inherently
evil about receiving magical items, especially from a being
who is apparently not evil.

Were the Dwarves who received Rings also committing an evil
act? There is no evidence that the Nine and the Seven were
any different. Were the Dwarves, particularly Durin, also
trying to gain forbidden knowledge and to assert control
and power over others?

And who ever said that the Nine Rings gave control over others?
I know of no text that suggests that. Control of others seems
to be soley the power of the One Ring.

Stephen
Re: The Ring of power [message #15310 ] Mi, 30 März 2005 07:35
AC  
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:52:25 -0500,
Robert Kolker <nowhere [at] nowhere.com> wrote:
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
>>
>> Not a bad trick, since he died forty years before it was formed.
>
> a slight exagerration of course.

A substantial exagerration. Do you also think that Edward I was a Nazi
because he expelled all the Jews from England.

> In spirit, but not in fact, Wagner was
> one of the first Nazis.

I find Wagner a brilliant and contemptible fellow. He wasn't the only
German who hated Jews, nor even the only European. He wasn't the only
German who wouldn't have minded all the Jews being wiped out, nor even the
only European. Would he have been a member of the National Socialist party
if he had lived? I dunno. Certainly the Nazis admired him. The fact was
that he was not a Nazi, as the political movement did not exist when Wagner
was alive. If you're going to call him the first Nazi, then what about all
the other anti-Semites in Europe? Why is Wagner singled out as the first
Nazi? Less virulent strains of anti-Semitism could be found in England, and
the Dreyfuss Affair in France shows just how many bigots were in the French
Army and government.

--
mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com
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