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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history
OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177011] Mo, 28 November 2005 18:12
Yuk Tang  
The HBO series 'Rome' has many details which chime with our current
understanding of their history, from the behaviour and mores of their
society to the trappings of officials.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177029 ] Di, 29 November 2005 16:06
Hashemon Urtasman  
Yuk Tang wrote:
> The HBO series 'Rome' has many details which chime with our current
> understanding of their history, from the behaviour and mores of their
> society to the trappings of officials.
>
>

Thanks, that sounds interesting. Since we don't get HBO in Canada, I
will try to find a way to watch it with someone who has satellite.

thanks,
Hasan
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177040 ] Di, 29 November 2005 22:02
tenworld  
I understand there is a new newsgroup where people who read the
original story in their younger days are ripping apart the director of
Rome for deviating from the print version, not to mention leaving out
some of the best parts of the story
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177051 ] Di, 29 November 2005 23:16
Yuk Tang  
"tenworld" <ten [at] world.std.com> wrote in
news:1133296198.009991.5620 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> I understand there is a new newsgroup where people who read the
> original story in their younger days are ripping apart the
> director of Rome for deviating from the print version, not to
> mention leaving out some of the best parts of the story

Which original story would that be?


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177063 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 15:44
Baronjosefr  
"tenworld" <ten [at] world.std.com> wrote in message
news:1133296198.009991.5620 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I understand there is a new newsgroup where people who read the
> original story in their younger days are ripping apart the director of
> Rome for deviating from the print version, not to mention leaving out
> some of the best parts of the story
>
That would be understandable IF a) 'Rome' was an actual historical
documentary, and not an historically based melodrama or b) the series was
based on a fictional work, and a sense of artistic outrage was legitimate.

For someone to say that they resent changes in a story of fictionalized
history, which itself is based on conjecture and supposition, is just silly.

Personally, I like the series but for one thing: it is just a little too
contrived the way things just happen to Pulllo Vorenus. They probably needed
another coupl of characters.
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177067 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 16:38
Derek Broughton  
BaJoRi wrote:

> For someone to say that they resent changes in a story of fictionalized
> history, which itself is based on conjecture and supposition, is just
> silly.

How more so than the outrage people feel about Jackson's treatment of LOTR?
--
derek
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177069 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 18:46
Yuk Tang  
Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in
news:3lt063-dc8.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca:
> BaJoRi wrote:
>
>> For someone to say that they resent changes in a story of
>> fictionalized history, which itself is based on conjecture and
>> supposition, is just silly.
>
> How more so than the outrage people feel about Jackson's treatment
> of LOTR?

The parallel would only be there if LotR were an actual historical
story to which we have a number of sources. The series is actually
closer to what I know of the primary sources than a number of
'documentaries' I've seen on the period.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177070 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 21:34
tenworld  
i was referring to that second most famous Old English author WS, but I
was just tweaking readers.

I thought Rome was well done as entertainment that captured the flavor
if not the true historic accuracy. Even little things like having
Ceasar killed on the Kalends of Feb instead of the ides of March was a
clever way for them to say Hey! we arent making a documentary. and
there were other twists like the XIII legion (in fact it was the X)
where that number has modern significance
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177071 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 23:02
Yuk Tang  
"tenworld" <ten [at] world.std.com> wrote in
news:1133382892.218838.209320 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> i was referring to that second most famous Old English author WS,
> but I was just tweaking readers.
>
> I thought Rome was well done as entertainment that captured the
> flavor if not the true historic accuracy. Even little things like
> having Ceasar killed on the Kalends of Feb instead of the ides of
> March was a clever way for them to say Hey! we arent making a
> documentary.

Erm, the town crier says near the beginning of the episode that it's
the Kalends (1st) of Feb, but Caesar gets killed at the end of the
episode. Time passes, you know.


> and there were other twists like the XIII legion (in
> fact it was the X) where that number has modern significance

Caesar's favoured legion was the 10th, but he had more than one
following him. I can't find any references in Plutarch and Suetonius
specifying which legion he marched on Rome with, so where did you get
that tidbit?

Also, what do you mean by 'where that number had modern
significance'?

Here we are, from Caesar's 'Gallic War', although this part is
commonly assumed to have been added by his friend Aulus Hirtius.



"De Bello Gallico" and Other Commentaries by Julius Caesar
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10657/10657.txt

LIV.--After this a decree was passed by the senate, that one legion
should be sent by Pompey, and another by Caesar, to the Parthian war.
But these two legions were evidently drawn from Caesar alone. For the
first legion which Pompey sent to Caesar, he gave Caesar, as if it
belonged to himself, though it was levied in Caesar's province.
Caesar, however, though no one could doubt the design of his enemies,
sent the legion back to Cneius Pompey, and in compliance with the
decree of the senate, ordered the fifteenth, belonging to himself,
and which was quartered in Cisalpine Gaul, to be delivered up. In its
room he sent the thirteenth into Italy, to protect the garrisons from
which he had drafted the fifteenth.



So Pompey deprived Caesar of two legions which were ostensibly to be
sent to the east against Parthia, but which were kept in Rome and
proved to be loyal to Caesar. This was alluded to in ep3. In
addition, he replaced the garrisons of Cisalpine Gaul (the Po valley)
with the 13th legion, which he later marched on Rome with (the first
part of his 'Civil War').

Any more errors you'd like to point out?


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177074 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 10:04
Christopher Kreuzer  
Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> "tenworld" <ten [at] world.std.com> wrote in
> news:1133382892.218838.209320 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> i was referring to that second most famous Old English author WS,
>> but I was just tweaking readers.
>>
>> I thought Rome was well done as entertainment that captured the
>> flavor if not the true historic accuracy. Even little things like
>> having Ceasar killed on the Kalends of Feb instead of the ides of
>> March was a clever way for them to say Hey! we arent making a
>> documentary.
>
> Erm, the town crier says near the beginning of the episode that it's
> the Kalends (1st) of Feb, but Caesar gets killed at the end of the
> episode. Time passes, you know.

Erm. We are only on episode 5 or something here in the UK on the BBC. I
know that Caesar gets killed, but if the HBO (USA) broadcast is ahead of
the UK, can you keep the other spoilers to a minimum?

I must admit I was also intrigued by the character Octavian, and went
and read about what happens to him. That was interesting! Really
improved my viewing of the next few episodes.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177075 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 12:54
Yuk Tang  
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:q0zjf.19109$Lw5.18775 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
> Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "tenworld" <ten [at] world.std.com> wrote in
>> news:1133382892.218838.209320 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>> i was referring to that second most famous Old English author
>>> WS, but I was just tweaking readers.
>>>
>>> I thought Rome was well done as entertainment that captured the
>>> flavor if not the true historic accuracy. Even little things
>>> like having Ceasar killed on the Kalends of Feb instead of the
>>> ides of March was a clever way for them to say Hey! we arent
>>> making a documentary.
>>
>> Erm, the town crier says near the beginning of the episode that
>> it's the Kalends (1st) of Feb, but Caesar gets killed at the end
>> of the episode. Time passes, you know.
>
> Erm. We are only on episode 5 or something here in the UK on the
> BBC. I know that Caesar gets killed, but if the HBO (USA)
> broadcast is ahead of the UK, can you keep the other spoilers to a
> minimum?

That's as spoiler-free as I could make the answer given his
complaint. Btw, Ep5(UK) is the equivalent of Ep6(US), as the initial
two episodes were condensed into one by the BBC. Having, erm,
'sampled the series by other means', I can say that it gets better as
it goes on, especially for those with an interest in the period.


> I must admit I was also intrigued by the character Octavian, and
> went and read about what happens to him. That was interesting!
> Really improved my viewing of the next few episodes.

A really bloodthirsty bugger who underwent a character transformation
after Actium (30 BC). The RL relationship between Octavian and
Cicero was rather interesting and touching.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177076 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 22:53
Derek Broughton  
Yuk Tang wrote:

> Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in
> news:3lt063-dc8.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca:
>> BaJoRi wrote:
>>
>>> For someone to say that they resent changes in a story of
>>> fictionalized history, which itself is based on conjecture and
>>> supposition, is just silly.
>>
>> How more so than the outrage people feel about Jackson's treatment
>> of LOTR?
>
> The parallel would only be there if LotR were an actual historical
> story to which we have a number of sources. The series is actually
> closer to what I know of the primary sources than a number of
> 'documentaries' I've seen on the period.

I still don't get it - Bajori says it's a fictional story, nevermind the
historical setting, and people are complaining that the series doesn't
match the book. Exactly the case with LOTR.
--
derek
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177077 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 15:16
Baronjosefr  
"Derek Broughton" <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:gkj163-mvd.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca...
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>
>> Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in
>> news:3lt063-dc8.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca:
>>> BaJoRi wrote:
>>>
>>>> For someone to say that they resent changes in a story of
>>>> fictionalized history, which itself is based on conjecture and
>>>> supposition, is just silly.
>>>
>>> How more so than the outrage people feel about Jackson's treatment
>>> of LOTR?
>>
>> The parallel would only be there if LotR were an actual historical
>> story to which we have a number of sources. The series is actually
>> closer to what I know of the primary sources than a number of
>> 'documentaries' I've seen on the period.
>
> I still don't get it - Bajori says it's a fictional story, nevermind the
> historical setting, and people are complaining that the series doesn't
> match the book. Exactly the case with LOTR.
> --
> derek

it is supposition about historical events. we may only guess at how close to
authentic it actually is
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177078 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 15:46
Yuk Tang  
Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in
news:gkj163-mvd.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca:
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>> Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in
>> news:3lt063-dc8.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca:
>>> BaJoRi wrote:
>>>
>>>> For someone to say that they resent changes in a story of
>>>> fictionalized history, which itself is based on conjecture and
>>>> supposition, is just silly.
>>>
>>> How more so than the outrage people feel about Jackson's
>>> treatment of LOTR?
>>
>> The parallel would only be there if LotR were an actual
>> historical story to which we have a number of sources. The
>> series is actually closer to what I know of the primary sources
>> than a number of 'documentaries' I've seen on the period.
>
> I still don't get it - Bajori says it's a fictional story,
> nevermind the historical setting, and people are complaining that
> the series doesn't match the book. Exactly the case with LOTR.

The author is king in LotR, as Tolkien is the only source we have for
the story. There isn't any equivalent single author in the case of
Rome, but multiple sources giving different perspectives on events.
The scriptwriters can justifiably claim that they are interpreting
those sources, and their interpretation is no less valid than many
that have been given 'historical' credence over the years.

Eg. What would tenworld say if Caesar had been garbed in ruffs and
doubloons, as would have been the case when Shakespeare's play was
first shown? Getting closer to the events, were the various
prodigies mentioned in Plutarch and Suetonius more historical than
the story of Pullo and Vorenus?


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177085 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 22:07
tenworld  
The reference I saw for the X legion was the battle in Greece - the
shipwreck did happen. Certainly Caesar had more legions, again the
emphasis on one was for dramatic effect, like soldiers proud they were
airborne, not just GIs. But I dont think they were mistakes, I think
they were intentionally distancing themselves, since some parts are not
historical. I thought the Kalends thing was clever but maybe they just
didnt want you to assume that Caesar died yet
(and apologies for no spoilers, I thought everyone would know that was
coming but I guess not necessarily this year)


Yuk Tang wrote:
> "tenworld" <ten [at] world.std.com> wrote in
> news:1133382892.218838.209320 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
....
> Erm, the town crier says near the beginning of the episode that it's
> the Kalends (1st) of Feb, but Caesar gets killed at the end of the
> episode. Time passes, you know.
>
>
> > and there were other twists like the XIII legion (in
> > fact it was the X) where that number has modern significance
>
> Caesar's favoured legion was the 10th, but he had more than one
> following him. I can't find any references in Plutarch and Suetonius
> specifying which legion he marched on Rome with, so where did you get
> that tidbit?
>
> Also, what do you mean by 'where that number had modern
> significance'?
>
> Here we are, from Caesar's 'Gallic War', although this part is
> commonly assumed to have been added by his friend Aulus Hirtius.
>
>
>
>...> Any more errors you'd like to point out?
>
>
> --
> Cheers, ymt.
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #177086 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 22:19
tenworld  
I would ignore the costume and be listening to the words like any other
play I have attended, but this was on TV and was billed as showing
ancient Roman life fairly accurately which I think it did. But please
note I was having a little fun with my original reply. Having read
much of Caesar in the original Latin as well as a lot of other history,
I enjoyed this series very much and was happy the writers were not so
pretentious as to pretend they were being acccurate as far as
characters and events.
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #179368 ] Fr, 02 Dezember 2005 19:41
Hashemon Urtasman  
Yuk Tang wrote:
> The HBO series 'Rome' has many details which chime with our current
> understanding of their history, from the behaviour and mores of their
> society to the trappings of officials.
>
>

What do you think about the later politics of the Roman empire viz. the
'bread and circuses' pandering to the mob? I heard someone on the radio
yesterday say something about politics which surprised me, that young
people are disconnected from both political parties and do not identify
with either of them.

If political differences reflect some underlying division in the
substrata of society, then conservative/liberal was a reflection of the
old working class/upper class division in the US. Behind all the
political rhetoric, are these simple issues of yesteryear. But if the
youth do not fit into these easy categories, then the old politics of
liberals and conservatives are a total waste of time for them. They
will have to find the new faultlines of their society, and address these
issues. One might be, family values issues--those who can afford to
have a 'normal' traditional comfortable family life vs. those that can't.

A few days ago I was thinking of what type of change would produce a
"mob" of the sort that the emperors would worry about. Well the youth
with no long-term prospects are so helpless in the face of global
competition for jobs and such, that they will probably become the main
force in the new political landscape, and be used, manipulated, placated
and suppressed by those in charge--all while being told that theirs is
the best country in the world, they are the luckiest kids in the world,
and so forth.



Hasan
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #179382 ] Sa, 03 Dezember 2005 14:39
Baronjosefr  
"Hashemon Urtasman" <nospam [at] none.com> wrote in message
news:_z0kf.7759$wf2.874848 [at] news20.bellglobal.com...
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>> The HBO series 'Rome' has many details which chime with our current
>> understanding of their history, from the behaviour and mores of their
>> society to the trappings of officials.
>>
>>
>
> What do you think about the later politics of the Roman empire viz. the
> 'bread and circuses' pandering to the mob? I heard someone on the radio
> yesterday say something about politics which surprised me, that young
> people are disconnected from both political parties and do not identify
> with either of them.

Why should anyone NOT be disconnected from the political machines? Anyone
that identifies themself as Republicrat or Democan might as well just admit
that they are unwilling or unable to think for themselves and would rather
just be told for whom to vote.\

People say that I am apathetic for rarely voting, especially in national
elections (I will go out for ballot initiatives or a favored local
candidate, however). I am not apathetic. I am exercising my Constitutional
right not to vote for the bozos (Bozi? Plural? hmmmmm) and clones presented
to us every few years, as if any one of them truly make any difference.

Doubt this is true? Name the president who gave tacit approval to an Asian
dictatorship to quash a pro-democracy student rally. Think G.W. with the
Tiannammen Square fiasco? No. Jimmy Carter with South Korea in the late
70's.

Joe Lieberman is a Democrat, yet in many ways is more conservative in his
politics than Arlen Specter, a Republican.

80% of all corporate political donors gave money to BOTH parties during the
last presidential elections.

As long as the U.S. is a one-party system masquerading as a multi-party
state, you will never see the type involvement needed to push serious change
in things like environmental policy, defense policy, fiscal policy, and
more.

>
> If political differences reflect some underlying division in the substrata
> of society, then conservative/liberal was a reflection of the old working
> class/upper class division in the US. Behind all the political rhetoric,
> are these simple issues of yesteryear. But if the youth do not fit into
> these easy categories, then the old politics of liberals and
> conservatives are a total waste of time for them. They will have to find
> the new faultlines of their society, and address these issues. One might
> be, family values issues--those who can afford to have a 'normal'
> traditional comfortable family life vs. those that can't.
>
> A few days ago I was thinking of what type of change would produce a "mob"
> of the sort that the emperors would worry about. Well the youth with no
> long-term prospects are so helpless in the face of global competition for
> jobs and such, that they will probably become the main force in the new
> political landscape, and be used, manipulated, placated and suppressed by
> those in charge--all while being told that theirs is the best country in
> the world, they are the luckiest kids in the world, and so forth.
>
>
>
> Hasan

The issue, in America at least, isn't so much jobs as it is a sense of
entitlement. Jobs are out there but, for whatever reason, many young people
today see themselves as above what they consider to be mundane careers. For
example, there is a need in the U.S. for more than 50,000 long haul
truckers. It's a difficult job, but a well-paying one. The problem is that
it is difficult. Most people want the easy way, not to have to work for what
they get. A sense of entitlement. Another example is this: there is a need
for more than 10,000 auto sales people nationwide, a shortage that has been
around for more than a decade. Also a difficult job, but extremely
well-paying when done right.

There are more examples than that, but those are just starters. Laziness
shouldn't be an excuse for political apathy, especially where jobs are
concerned.

And you are certainly right about one thing: American kids are taught that
they are lucky for being in the best country in the world. But the bitter
lesson is this: luck comes to those who work for it, and it really pisses
them off that they are expected to accomplish something before someone pats
them on the back.

A great Calvin & Hobbes strip has Calivin saying "why should I work hard in
school to be successful. That's like admitting I am not entitled."
Re: OT for Hasan and anyone else interested in Roman history [message #184318 ] Mo, 05 Dezember 2005 22:41
Yuk Tang  
Hashemon Urtasman <nospam [at] none.com> wrote in
news:_z0kf.7759$wf2.874848 [at] news20.bellglobal.com:
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>> The HBO series 'Rome' has many details which chime with our
>> current understanding of their history, from the behaviour and
>> mores of their society to the trappings of officials.
>
> What do you think about the later politics of the Roman empire
> viz. the 'bread and circuses' pandering to the mob? I heard
> someone on the radio yesterday say something about politics which
> surprised me, that young people are disconnected from both
> political parties and do not identify with either of them.

This is roughly paralleled in the society of Catullus, Lesbia, etc.
who declared themselves divorced from the politics of the time.

Re: bread and circuses. Aediles were in charge of public
entertainments, and Caesar during his stint virtually bankrupted
himself putting on gladiatorial displays. And the Corn laws were
originally instituted by Gaius Gracchus to protect the increased
urban population from over-greedy grain merchants. Later tribunes,
taking advantage of the tribute and spoils from foreign conquests,
turned it into a dole (around the time that direct taxation on
citizens was abolished).

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/gracchus-gaius.htm


> If political differences reflect some underlying division in the
> substrata of society, then conservative/liberal was a reflection
> of the old working class/upper class division in the US. Behind
> all the political rhetoric, are these simple issues of yesteryear.
> But if the youth do not fit into these easy categories, then the
> old politics of liberals and conservatives are a total waste of
> time for them. They will have to find the new faultlines of their
> society, and address these issues. One might be, family values
> issues--those who can afford to have a 'normal' traditional
> comfortable family life vs. those that can't.

And if youths do not take part in politics, sooner or later a
strongman will emerge who will impose his values on them. I wonder
if Ovid ever wished he were living in Catullus's republic.


> A few days ago I was thinking of what type of change would produce
> a "mob" of the sort that the emperors would worry about. Well the
> youth with no long-term prospects are so helpless in the face of
> global competition for jobs and such, that they will probably
> become the main force in the new political landscape, and be used,
> manipulated, placated and suppressed by those in charge--all while
> being told that theirs is the best country in the world, they are
> the luckiest kids in the world, and so forth.

Emperors need only worry about mobs if they're willing to turn to
arms, otherwise they're apathetic. It's been thus throughout
history, throughout the world, that unrest will usually occur in
times of want. During the Roman republic, this want was caused by
the richer classes appropriating society's wealth for themselves,
crushing the Gracchi's attempts to deal with the problem, causing the
urban poor to sign up as mercenaries in successive civil wars.


--
Cheers, ymt.
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