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Science Fiction » alt.fan.starwars » Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader
Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #174322] Mo, 28 November 2005 03:53
docsavage20  
Does HC even sort of resemble the image you got in your mind's eye when
Obi Wan was describing Luke's father to him in Episode IV? His skills,
character, etc. Not for me he doesn't.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #174323 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 04:24
frenchy  
Even if you found somebody that resembled what you see in your minds
eye... he still would to have read those same lines : (
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #174325 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 04:47
frenchy  
And another thing, you asked does he match what we had in our mind's
eye. Probably not. And probably not for 99.9% of everybody no matter
WHO had played it. Everyone has listened to their favorite announcer,
or disc jockey, etc., then they find out what they look like. Do they
EVER look even remotely what we somehow think they were going to? Hell
no. Saying so-and-so would have been better, fine, but this 'he should
have matched what I have been picturing in my head for 20 years'
business is on the absurd side. I mean what percent of movies have
that kind of burden placed on a role - played by someone else in an
evil-looking mask with another someone else's voice in 1977 and now we
take the mask off and expect the two to match in everybody's head? Not
many.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #174329 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 06:22
Anybody  
In article <1133146415.965482.59740 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
docsavage20 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> Does HC even sort of resemble the image you got in your mind's eye when
> Obi Wan was describing Luke's father to him in Episode IV? His skills,
> character, etc. Not for me he doesn't.

Obi-Wan was trying to encourage Luke. It wouldn't do Luke much good to
be told: "You father was a useless dipstick who was so pathetically
weak that he grumbled his way through Jedi school and turned to the
easy path at the first opportunity."

Besides which, Anakin was the most skillful potential Jedi and an
excellent pilot - seems to match Obi-Wan's description to me. It's not
as if Obi-Wan said "Anakin was a huge fat bald guy with bright orange
hair and a clown nose". :-\

The actual image will be different in everyone's "mind's eye" and would
be even more different if we hadn't seen Anakin in RotJ.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #174331 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 06:41
SpammersDie  
"frenchy" <mf101723 [at] msn.com> wrote in message
news:1133149650.921897.66560 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> And another thing, you asked does he match what we had in our mind's
> eye. Probably not. And probably not for 99.9% of everybody no matter
> WHO had played it. Everyone has listened to their favorite announcer,
> or disc jockey, etc., then they find out what they look like. Do they
> EVER look even remotely what we somehow think they were going to? Hell
> no. Saying so-and-so would have been better, fine, but this 'he should
> have matched what I have been picturing in my head for 20 years'
> business is on the absurd side.
>
> I mean what percent of movies have
> that kind of burden placed on a role - played by someone else in an
> evil-looking mask with another someone else's voice in 1977 and now we
> take the mask off and expect the two to match in everybody's head? Not
> many.

It was already done in RotJ and Phantom Menace.

It's not like we had to rely wholly on our imagination. We had seen the
9-year old Anakin and the Sebastian Shaw Anakin (in the untampered version
of RotJ, anyway.) I had no problem picturing the former being the younger
version of the latter. HC with his string-bean figure, tanny complexion and
dead eyes doesn't resemble either one.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #174333 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 10:34
Thump  
I think he does a great job of being a petulant, whiny brat. I can't imagine
anyone else doing it better.

Thump

<docsavage20 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133146415.965482.59740 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Does HC even sort of resemble the image you got in your mind's eye when
> Obi Wan was describing Luke's father to him in Episode IV? His skills,
> character, etc. Not for me he doesn't.
>
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #174335 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 11:31
Doc  
"frenchy" <mf101723 [at] msn.com> wrote in message
news:1133149650.921897.66560 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> And another thing, you asked does he match what we had in our mind's
> eye. Probably not. And probably not for 99.9% of everybody no matter
> WHO had played it. Everyone has listened to their favorite announcer,
> or disc jockey, etc., then they find out what they look like. Do they
> EVER look even remotely what we somehow think they were going to?

I'm not talking about what he looked liked so much as the overall persona.
He just doesn't come across the way I would have imagined the man Obi Wan
described.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175610 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 15:09
Jedi Apprentice  
I personally think HC did a good job of playing a young Anakin/Vader.
He plays the sort of character that I could have imagined a young Darth
Vader being.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175611 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 16:09
SpammersDie  
"Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
news:281120051822361199%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> In article <1133146415.965482.59740 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> docsavage20 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Does HC even sort of resemble the image you got in your mind's eye when
>> Obi Wan was describing Luke's father to him in Episode IV? His skills,
>> character, etc. Not for me he doesn't.
>
> Obi-Wan was trying to encourage Luke. It wouldn't do Luke much good to
> be told: "You father was a useless dipstick who was so pathetically
> weak that he grumbled his way through Jedi school and turned to the
> easy path at the first opportunity."

However, he didn't change his depiction in RotJ and at that point, he had
every reason to paint Anakin in a negative light since he wanted Luke to
kill Anakin, not idolize him. He could very well have said "Look, I know
you've built up an image of your father over your entire life but let me
disillusion you now - even before he became Vader, he wasn't the hero you
want him to be. He had the raw skills but he was immature, possessive,
arrogant, whiny, spoiled, rude, obnoxious, disobedient, unappreciative and
even uncouth enough to carry out conversations out loud in a public opera. I
would have liked to think of him as a friend but the truth is, nobody would
want him as a friend. I only trained him because it was my own master's
dying wishes and it took all my Jedi training to keep myself from throwing
him out a window on multiple occasions. So don't give me this "there's still
good in him" nonsense. There isn't and there never was."

*That* is the Anakin of Ep2 & 3.

Problem is, it isn't the Anakin of Ep 1 & 6 - and that's why people are
turned off.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175620 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 21:03
Anybody  
In article <05Fif.101605$qk4.14325 [at] bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:

> "Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
> news:281120051822361199%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> > In article <1133146415.965482.59740 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > docsavage20 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >> Does HC even sort of resemble the image you got in your mind's eye when
> >> Obi Wan was describing Luke's father to him in Episode IV? His skills,
> >> character, etc. Not for me he doesn't.
> >
> > Obi-Wan was trying to encourage Luke. It wouldn't do Luke much good to
> > be told: "You father was a useless dipstick who was so pathetically
> > weak that he grumbled his way through Jedi school and turned to the
> > easy path at the first opportunity."
>
> However, he didn't change his depiction in RotJ and at that point, he had
> every reason to paint Anakin in a negative light since he wanted Luke to
> kill Anakin, not idolize him. He could very well have said "Look, I know
> you've built up an image of your father over your entire life but let me
> disillusion you now - even before he became Vader, he wasn't the hero you
> want him to be. He had the raw skills but he was immature, possessive,
> arrogant, whiny, spoiled, rude, obnoxious, disobedient, unappreciative and
> even uncouth enough to carry out conversations out loud in a public opera. I
> would have liked to think of him as a friend but the truth is, nobody would
> want him as a friend. I only trained him because it was my own master's
> dying wishes and it took all my Jedi training to keep myself from throwing
> him out a window on multiple occasions. So don't give me this "there's still
> good in him" nonsense. There isn't and there never was."
>
> *That* is the Anakin of Ep2 & 3.
>
> Problem is, it isn't the Anakin of Ep 1 & 6 - and that's why people are
> turned off.

I think you actually need to watch the prequels. Obi-Wan thought of
Anakin as a very good friend and even calls him brother. Obi-Wan didn't
see any of those supposed traits you mention, or at least ignored them
as we all do with family members and close friends. Obi-Wan has also
had 20 years of nostalgic looking backwards, reminiscing and glossing
over the bad bits - again as we all do. The "Anakin of old" was never
going to exactly match Obi-Wan's words and Anakin's turning to the Dark
Side was an obvious sign that he was never some sort of saint or
darling angel.

The fact that prequel Anakin's action / traits supposedly don't match
Obi-Wan's original trilogy words is simply another case of a "plot
hole" that doesn't exist. :-\
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175625 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 23:14
SpammersDie  
"Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
news:291120050903056185%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> In article <05Fif.101605$qk4.14325 [at] bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:
>
>> "Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
>> news:281120051822361199%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
>> > In article <1133146415.965482.59740 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> > docsavage20 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> >
>> >> Does HC even sort of resemble the image you got in your mind's eye
>> >> when
>> >> Obi Wan was describing Luke's father to him in Episode IV? His skills,
>> >> character, etc. Not for me he doesn't.
>> >
>> > Obi-Wan was trying to encourage Luke. It wouldn't do Luke much good to
>> > be told: "You father was a useless dipstick who was so pathetically
>> > weak that he grumbled his way through Jedi school and turned to the
>> > easy path at the first opportunity."
>>
>> However, he didn't change his depiction in RotJ and at that point, he had
>> every reason to paint Anakin in a negative light since he wanted Luke to
>> kill Anakin, not idolize him. He could very well have said "Look, I know
>> you've built up an image of your father over your entire life but let me
>> disillusion you now - even before he became Vader, he wasn't the hero you
>> want him to be. He had the raw skills but he was immature, possessive,
>> arrogant, whiny, spoiled, rude, obnoxious, disobedient, unappreciative
>> and
>> even uncouth enough to carry out conversations out loud in a public
>> opera. I
>> would have liked to think of him as a friend but the truth is, nobody
>> would
>> want him as a friend. I only trained him because it was my own master's
>> dying wishes and it took all my Jedi training to keep myself from
>> throwing
>> him out a window on multiple occasions. So don't give me this "there's
>> still
>> good in him" nonsense. There isn't and there never was."
>>
>> *That* is the Anakin of Ep2 & 3.
>>
>> Problem is, it isn't the Anakin of Ep 1 & 6 - and that's why people are
>> turned off.
>
> I think you actually need to watch the prequels. Obi-Wan thought of
> Anakin as a very good friend and even calls him brother.

I know Lucas wants us to think that. It doesn't come across believably.
That's the problem. I can't believe in the romance between Padme and
HC-Anakin and the brotherhood between Obi-wan and HC-Anakin because I can't
believe these two people would want to be the same room with him.


> Obi-Wan didn't
> see any of those supposed traits you mention, or at least ignored them
> as we all do with family members and close friends. Obi-Wan has also
> had 20 years of nostalgic looking backwards, reminiscing and glossing
> over the bad bits - again as we all do. The "Anakin of old" was never
> going to exactly match Obi-Wan's words and Anakin's turning to the Dark
> Side was an obvious sign that he was never some sort of saint or
> darling angel.

No, but there needs to be some foundation of truth even to sentimental
memories.


>
> The fact that prequel Anakin's action / traits supposedly don't match
> Obi-Wan's original trilogy words is simply another case of a "plot
> hole" that doesn't exist. :-\

I don't think of it as a plot hole - I'm sure Lucas wanted us to see the HC
Anakin as a flawed but sympathetic character that could be remembered the
way Obi-Wan does.

What I am saying is that the combination of poor casting and poor
scriptwriting failed to deliver the result that the story intended.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175627 ] Di, 29 November 2005 00:49
Anybody  
In article <3jLif.102566$qk4.46985 [at] bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:

> "Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
> news:291120050903056185%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> > In article <05Fif.101605$qk4.14325 [at] bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> > "SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:
> >
> >> "Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
> >> news:281120051822361199%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> >> > In article <1133146415.965482.59740 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> >> > docsavage20 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Does HC even sort of resemble the image you got in your mind's eye
> >> >> when
> >> >> Obi Wan was describing Luke's father to him in Episode IV? His skills,
> >> >> character, etc. Not for me he doesn't.
> >> >
> >> > Obi-Wan was trying to encourage Luke. It wouldn't do Luke much good to
> >> > be told: "You father was a useless dipstick who was so pathetically
> >> > weak that he grumbled his way through Jedi school and turned to the
> >> > easy path at the first opportunity."
> >>
> >> However, he didn't change his depiction in RotJ and at that point, he had
> >> every reason to paint Anakin in a negative light since he wanted Luke to
> >> kill Anakin, not idolize him. He could very well have said "Look, I know
> >> you've built up an image of your father over your entire life but let me
> >> disillusion you now - even before he became Vader, he wasn't the hero you
> >> want him to be. He had the raw skills but he was immature, possessive,
> >> arrogant, whiny, spoiled, rude, obnoxious, disobedient, unappreciative
> >> and
> >> even uncouth enough to carry out conversations out loud in a public
> >> opera. I
> >> would have liked to think of him as a friend but the truth is, nobody
> >> would
> >> want him as a friend. I only trained him because it was my own master's
> >> dying wishes and it took all my Jedi training to keep myself from
> >> throwing
> >> him out a window on multiple occasions. So don't give me this "there's
> >> still
> >> good in him" nonsense. There isn't and there never was."
> >>
> >> *That* is the Anakin of Ep2 & 3.
> >>
> >> Problem is, it isn't the Anakin of Ep 1 & 6 - and that's why people are
> >> turned off.
> >
> > I think you actually need to watch the prequels. Obi-Wan thought of
> > Anakin as a very good friend and even calls him brother.
>
> I know Lucas wants us to think that. It doesn't come across believably.
> That's the problem. I can't believe in the romance between Padme and
> HC-Anakin and the brotherhood between Obi-wan and HC-Anakin because I can't
> believe these two people would want to be the same room with him.
>
>
> > Obi-Wan didn't
> > see any of those supposed traits you mention, or at least ignored them
> > as we all do with family members and close friends. Obi-Wan has also
> > had 20 years of nostalgic looking backwards, reminiscing and glossing
> > over the bad bits - again as we all do. The "Anakin of old" was never
> > going to exactly match Obi-Wan's words and Anakin's turning to the Dark
> > Side was an obvious sign that he was never some sort of saint or
> > darling angel.
>
> No, but there needs to be some foundation of truth even to sentimental
> memories.

You do realise that the prequel movies show about a week (at most) out
of a 10 year relationship?? :-\



> > The fact that prequel Anakin's action / traits supposedly don't match
> > Obi-Wan's original trilogy words is simply another case of a "plot
> > hole" that doesn't exist. :-\
>
> I don't think of it as a plot hole - I'm sure Lucas wanted us to see the HC
> Anakin as a flawed but sympathetic character that could be remembered the
> way Obi-Wan does.
>
> What I am saying is that the combination of poor casting and poor
> scriptwriting failed to deliver the result that the story intended.

The story intended to show a Jedi who turned to the Dark Side and
became Darth Vader, and that's exactly what we got. Anything else is
your imagination.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175629 ] Di, 29 November 2005 01:23
SpammersDie  
"Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
news:291120051249535279%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> In article <3jLif.102566$qk4.46985 [at] bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:
>
>> "Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
>> news:291120050903056185%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
>> > In article <05Fif.101605$qk4.14325 [at] bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> > "SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:281120051822361199%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
>> >> > In article <1133146415.965482.59740 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> >> > docsavage20 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Does HC even sort of resemble the image you got in your mind's eye
>> >> >> when
>> >> >> Obi Wan was describing Luke's father to him in Episode IV? His
>> >> >> skills,
>> >> >> character, etc. Not for me he doesn't.
>> >> >
>> >> > Obi-Wan was trying to encourage Luke. It wouldn't do Luke much good
>> >> > to
>> >> > be told: "You father was a useless dipstick who was so pathetically
>> >> > weak that he grumbled his way through Jedi school and turned to the
>> >> > easy path at the first opportunity."
>> >>
>> >> However, he didn't change his depiction in RotJ and at that point, he
>> >> had
>> >> every reason to paint Anakin in a negative light since he wanted Luke
>> >> to
>> >> kill Anakin, not idolize him. He could very well have said "Look, I
>> >> know
>> >> you've built up an image of your father over your entire life but let
>> >> me
>> >> disillusion you now - even before he became Vader, he wasn't the hero
>> >> you
>> >> want him to be. He had the raw skills but he was immature, possessive,
>> >> arrogant, whiny, spoiled, rude, obnoxious, disobedient, unappreciative
>> >> and
>> >> even uncouth enough to carry out conversations out loud in a public
>> >> opera. I
>> >> would have liked to think of him as a friend but the truth is, nobody
>> >> would
>> >> want him as a friend. I only trained him because it was my own
>> >> master's
>> >> dying wishes and it took all my Jedi training to keep myself from
>> >> throwing
>> >> him out a window on multiple occasions. So don't give me this "there's
>> >> still
>> >> good in him" nonsense. There isn't and there never was."
>> >>
>> >> *That* is the Anakin of Ep2 & 3.
>> >>
>> >> Problem is, it isn't the Anakin of Ep 1 & 6 - and that's why people
>> >> are
>> >> turned off.
>> >
>> > I think you actually need to watch the prequels. Obi-Wan thought of
>> > Anakin as a very good friend and even calls him brother.
>>
>> I know Lucas wants us to think that. It doesn't come across believably.
>> That's the problem. I can't believe in the romance between Padme and
>> HC-Anakin and the brotherhood between Obi-wan and HC-Anakin because I
>> can't
>> believe these two people would want to be the same room with him.
>>
>>
>> > Obi-Wan didn't
>> > see any of those supposed traits you mention, or at least ignored them
>> > as we all do with family members and close friends. Obi-Wan has also
>> > had 20 years of nostalgic looking backwards, reminiscing and glossing
>> > over the bad bits - again as we all do. The "Anakin of old" was never
>> > going to exactly match Obi-Wan's words and Anakin's turning to the Dark
>> > Side was an obvious sign that he was never some sort of saint or
>> > darling angel.
>>
>> No, but there needs to be some foundation of truth even to sentimental
>> memories.
>
> You do realise that the prequel movies show about a week (at most) out
> of a 10 year relationship?? :-\

It's the director, writer and actors' responsibility to make the best of
that week then.

Good storytelling is about showing, not telling. If you don't make their
relationship convincing in the ~100 minutes you have them on screen, then
the film has lost any right to claim the relationship exists. You don't get
to say that we just saw one bad week and they're really inseparable the rest
of the time.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175635 ] Di, 29 November 2005 04:00
Doc  
"Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
news:291120050903056185%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...

> The fact that prequel Anakin's action / traits supposedly don't match
> Obi-Wan's original trilogy words is simply another case of a "plot
> hole" that doesn't exist. :-\

My point wasn't regarding a plot hole, I was thinking of HC's acting skills
which don't exist. The right actor could have taken the same lines and done
something far better with the character.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175636 ] Di, 29 November 2005 04:14
Anybody  
In article <NbNif.187553$zb5.64840 [at] bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:

> "Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
> news:291120051249535279%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> > In article <3jLif.102566$qk4.46985 [at] bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> > "SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:
> >
> >> "Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
> >> news:291120050903056185%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> >> > In article <05Fif.101605$qk4.14325 [at] bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> >> > "SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Anybody" <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:281120051822361199%anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com...
> >> >> > In article <1133146415.965482.59740 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> >> >> > docsavage20 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Does HC even sort of resemble the image you got in your mind's eye
> >> >> >> when
> >> >> >> Obi Wan was describing Luke's father to him in Episode IV? His
> >> >> >> skills,
> >> >> >> character, etc. Not for me he doesn't.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Obi-Wan was trying to encourage Luke. It wouldn't do Luke much good
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > be told: "You father was a useless dipstick who was so pathetically
> >> >> > weak that he grumbled his way through Jedi school and turned to the
> >> >> > easy path at the first opportunity."
> >> >>
> >> >> However, he didn't change his depiction in RotJ and at that point, he
> >> >> had
> >> >> every reason to paint Anakin in a negative light since he wanted Luke
> >> >> to
> >> >> kill Anakin, not idolize him. He could very well have said "Look, I
> >> >> know
> >> >> you've built up an image of your father over your entire life but let
> >> >> me
> >> >> disillusion you now - even before he became Vader, he wasn't the hero
> >> >> you
> >> >> want him to be. He had the raw skills but he was immature, possessive,
> >> >> arrogant, whiny, spoiled, rude, obnoxious, disobedient, unappreciative
> >> >> and
> >> >> even uncouth enough to carry out conversations out loud in a public
> >> >> opera. I
> >> >> would have liked to think of him as a friend but the truth is, nobody
> >> >> would
> >> >> want him as a friend. I only trained him because it was my own
> >> >> master's
> >> >> dying wishes and it took all my Jedi training to keep myself from
> >> >> throwing
> >> >> him out a window on multiple occasions. So don't give me this "there's
> >> >> still
> >> >> good in him" nonsense. There isn't and there never was."
> >> >>
> >> >> *That* is the Anakin of Ep2 & 3.
> >> >>
> >> >> Problem is, it isn't the Anakin of Ep 1 & 6 - and that's why people
> >> >> are
> >> >> turned off.
> >> >
> >> > I think you actually need to watch the prequels. Obi-Wan thought of
> >> > Anakin as a very good friend and even calls him brother.
> >>
> >> I know Lucas wants us to think that. It doesn't come across believably.
> >> That's the problem. I can't believe in the romance between Padme and
> >> HC-Anakin and the brotherhood between Obi-wan and HC-Anakin because I
> >> can't
> >> believe these two people would want to be the same room with him.
> >>
> >>
> >> > Obi-Wan didn't
> >> > see any of those supposed traits you mention, or at least ignored them
> >> > as we all do with family members and close friends. Obi-Wan has also
> >> > had 20 years of nostalgic looking backwards, reminiscing and glossing
> >> > over the bad bits - again as we all do. The "Anakin of old" was never
> >> > going to exactly match Obi-Wan's words and Anakin's turning to the Dark
> >> > Side was an obvious sign that he was never some sort of saint or
> >> > darling angel.
> >>
> >> No, but there needs to be some foundation of truth even to sentimental
> >> memories.
> >
> > You do realise that the prequel movies show about a week (at most) out
> > of a 10 year relationship?? :-\
>
> It's the director, writer and actors' responsibility to make the best of
> that week then.
>
> Good storytelling is about showing, not telling. If you don't make their
> relationship convincing in the ~100 minutes you have them on screen, then
> the film has lost any right to claim the relationship exists. You don't get
> to say that we just saw one bad week and they're really inseparable the rest
> of the time.

Episode II and especially III are showing Anakin's downfall, so of
course he's not going to be all sweetness and light. Yet again we find
out that absolutely every single second and every single thing "must"
be explained on-screen for some people to make sense of the movies.
:-\
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175638 ] Di, 29 November 2005 04:34
SpammersDie  
>> > You do realise that the prequel movies show about a week (at most) out
>> > of a 10 year relationship?? :-\
>>
>> It's the director, writer and actors' responsibility to make the best of
>> that week then.
>>
>> Good storytelling is about showing, not telling. If you don't make their
>> relationship convincing in the ~100 minutes you have them on screen, then
>> the film has lost any right to claim the relationship exists. You don't
>> get
>> to say that we just saw one bad week and they're really inseparable the
>> rest
>> of the time.
>
> Episode II and especially III are showing Anakin's downfall, so of
> course he's not going to be all sweetness and light.

The second half of Episode 3 showed his downfall.

Lucas had a movie and a half before that to establish a bond between two
characters. Plenty of flicks, including earlier SW films, successfully
accomplish that in a fifth of that time - it's not rocket science.

The writing bears some blame. Lucas even concedes on the Ep2 commentary that
he realized late that Ep2 was sorely lacking in demonstrating the
camaraderie that everyone had been told existed between Obi and Ani - hence
the late addition of that opening banter in the elevator (too little, too
late.) And he could also have started that bonding process in Ep1 instead of
having Obi-Wan practically sit out the whole movie and then be forced by his
loyalty to Qui-Gon to take Ani as a student.

But a lot of it also stems from the fact that HC Anakin's demeanor from the
very start of AotC is actually noticeably less pleasant than the David
Prowse Vader in his grouchiest moments. He might be useful to have at your
back but I can't imagine wanting to be in the same room with him otherwise.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175641 ] Di, 29 November 2005 06:33
Anybody  
In article <9%Pif.188360$zb5.66221 [at] bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:

> >> > You do realise that the prequel movies show about a week (at most) out
> >> > of a 10 year relationship?? :-\
> >>
> >> It's the director, writer and actors' responsibility to make the best of
> >> that week then.
> >>
> >> Good storytelling is about showing, not telling. If you don't make their
> >> relationship convincing in the ~100 minutes you have them on screen, then
> >> the film has lost any right to claim the relationship exists. You don't
> >> get
> >> to say that we just saw one bad week and they're really inseparable the
> >> rest
> >> of the time.
> >
> > Episode II and especially III are showing Anakin's downfall, so of
> > course he's not going to be all sweetness and light.
>
> The second half of Episode 3 showed his downfall.
>
> Lucas had a movie and a half before that to establish a bond between two
> characters. Plenty of flicks, including earlier SW films, successfully
> accomplish that in a fifth of that time - it's not rocket science.

That bond was created during the 10 years before Episode II. As I said,
Episode II and III are *both* showing Anakin's downfall - it starts in
Episode II and is completed in Episode III.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175652 ] Di, 29 November 2005 18:12
Grue  
SpammersDie wrote:

> The second half of Episode 3 showed his downfall.
>

I guess slaughtering Tusken women and children iin Ep II was an upswing?



--
-Grue
------------------------------------------------------------ -------
An unbreakable toy is good for breaking other toys.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175654 ] Di, 29 November 2005 20:40
Revok  
"Doc" <docsavage20 [at] xhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:s0Bif.9886$aA2.9834 [at] newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "frenchy" <mf101723 [at] msn.com> wrote in message
> news:1133149650.921897.66560 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> And another thing, you asked does he match what we had in our mind's
>> eye. Probably not. And probably not for 99.9% of everybody no matter
>> WHO had played it. Everyone has listened to their favorite announcer,
>> or disc jockey, etc., then they find out what they look like. Do they
>> EVER look even remotely what we somehow think they were going to?
>
> I'm not talking about what he looked liked so much as the overall persona.
> He just doesn't come across the way I would have imagined the man Obi Wan
> described.

I do think that when Yoda describes him to Luke in ESB (when Luke is saying
why he wanted to become a jedi - to be like his father) is completely out of
tone with what happened in the prequel trilogie.
>
>
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175658 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 00:53
Anybody  
In article <dmiarp$b5l$1 [at] newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Revok"
<robert_nospam [at] wgrace99.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> "Doc" <docsavage20 [at] xhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:s0Bif.9886$aA2.9834 [at] newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "frenchy" <mf101723 [at] msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:1133149650.921897.66560 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >> And another thing, you asked does he match what we had in our mind's
> >> eye. Probably not. And probably not for 99.9% of everybody no matter
> >> WHO had played it. Everyone has listened to their favorite announcer,
> >> or disc jockey, etc., then they find out what they look like. Do they
> >> EVER look even remotely what we somehow think they were going to?
> >
> > I'm not talking about what he looked liked so much as the overall persona.
> > He just doesn't come across the way I would have imagined the man Obi Wan
> > described.
>
> I do think that when Yoda describes him to Luke in ESB (when Luke is saying
> why he wanted to become a jedi - to be like his father) is completely out of
> tone with what happened in the prequel trilogie.

Obi-Wan and Yoda knew Anakin for 10 years before he turned to the Dark
Side. The way they describe Anakin will be mostly remembering those
years rather than the last few weeks or his actions as Vader. As
Obi-Wan said, Vader killed Anakin.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175659 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 01:50
Solon  
_Grue_ spoke thusly:
> SpammersDie wrote:
>
>> The second half of Episode 3 showed his downfall.
>
> I guess slaughtering Tusken women and children iin Ep II was an upswing?

Hehe. You know, if GL wanted people to sympathize more with Anakin, he
should have had Anakin slaughter Gungans, as a path to the dark side. :-)
--
usenetsolon [at] gmail.com
Firefox 1.5 is out! <http://www.mozilla.com/>
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175661 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 02:13
SpammersDie  
"Grue" <a [at] a.com> wrote in message
news:Xns971D7C255BA4Aaacom [at] 209.210.176.62...
> SpammersDie wrote:
>
>> The second half of Episode 3 showed his downfall.
>>
>
> I guess slaughtering Tusken women and children iin Ep II was an upswing?

If you're a Tatooine moisture farmer, yes. Anything that slows the
population growth of Tuskens would be right by them.

That little incident on Tatooine contributed to his downfall as a Jedi but
it didn't contribute to the downfall of Obi-Wan's estimation of him because
Obi-Wan never knew about it. So my point stands. We're still supposed to
believe that Obi-Wan still viewed Anakin as a good person and as a friend
and brother at the end of AotC, during all of the Clone Wars and all the way
to the point where Obi-Wan sees Anakin in the temple security hologram.
Lucas couldn't have made it more explicit than he did with that goodbye
scene at the Coruscant docks. The reason people are turned off is that
Anakin as performed by HC does nothing to deserve that trust and loyalty
from Obi-Wan (let alone Padme.) He exudes creepiness and evil from the very
start of Ep2 and it makes Obi-Wan and Padme look positively blind that they
don't see it.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175679 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 08:09
frenchy  
<<We had seen the 9-year old Anakin and the Sebastian Shaw Anakin (in
the untampered version of RotJ, anyway.) I had no problem picturing the
former being the younger version of the latter.>>

If the kid fit so great, maybe we shoulda let him grow up and play it
again? We'd end up with a teenage John Denver in a leather jacket .
Tanny complexion? So they were supposed to only cast some Irish dude
with freckles or what? Little kids usually don't have tans. Young
adults have tans. As people get older they cut down on the outdoor
stuff and stay out of the sun more... well except for George Hamilton.
(Besides, the latter is moot since the old Anakin was only pale as a
bar of Dove cuz he'd been scarred over and then locked in the damn mask
for 20 years.)
I don't really see how a connect can be made between that little kid
and the pasty, scar-faced old English guy with the mask pulled off.
What is the connection or resemblance? Explain please? Well let me
put it this way, I can't see how a connect between those two is a
cinch, but between Hayden and either one of them is somehow an enormous
stretch of the imagination. To tell the truth I don't 'picture' any of
them being that same person at different ages, but I don't need that to
believe each one individually.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175682 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 08:12
frenchy  
<<<I do think that when Yoda describes him to Luke in ESB (when Luke is
saying
why he wanted to become a jedi - to be like his father) is completely
out of
tone with what happened in the prequel trilogie. >>

Maybe or maybe not, but if so then we're into blame-Lucas-land unless
he was willing to let Hayden rewrite the script.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175683 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 08:19
frenchy  
I will grant one thing, the kid had blonde hair, then Hayden's is dark
brown, then the old guy's is... well, grey.
But when I was a little kid I had blondey-blonde hair, then it turned
brown and never looked back. You'd never know I ever had blonde hair.
And now it's getting some stinkin' gray in it too so the cycle
continues... : (
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175692 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 12:54
SpammersDie  
"frenchy" <mf101723 [at] msn.com> wrote in message
news:1133334545.048071.94510 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> <<We had seen the 9-year old Anakin and the Sebastian Shaw Anakin (in
> the untampered version of RotJ, anyway.) I had no problem picturing the
> former being the younger version of the latter.>>
>
> If the kid fit so great, maybe we shoulda let him grow up and play it
> again?

Shrug - could hardly have been worse than what we got.


> We'd end up with a teenage John Denver in a leather jacket .
> Tanny complexion? So they were supposed to only cast some Irish dude
> with freckles or what? Little kids usually don't have tans. Young
> adults have tans. As people get older they cut down on the outdoor
> stuff and stay out of the sun more...

I doubt Anakin could have gotten more sun on Coruscant than he did in his
first 9 years on a desert planet, but whatever...


> I don't really see how a connect can be made between that little kid
> and the pasty, scar-faced old English guy with the mask pulled off.
> What is the connection or resemblance? Explain please? Well let me
> put it this way, I can't see how a connect between those two is a
> cinch, but between Hayden and either one of them is somehow an enormous
> stretch of the imagination.

I wasn't making the connection with scarface - I was making the connection
with the Anakin ghost at the Ewok roast, which my comment about "the
untampered" ROJ should have made clear.

As for why the TPM Anakin was plausible and HC wasn't, the TPM and Shaw
Anakins had more similar physiques, rounded faces and the ability to look
genuinely happy without turning it into a sex-predator smirk the way HC does
everytime he attempts it (including in the same roast scene in the altered
ROTJ.)
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175694 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 16:08
frenchy  
> I wasn't making the connection with scarface - I was making the connection
> with the Anakin ghost at the Ewok roast, which my comment about "the
> untampered" ROJ should have made clear.> > As for why the TPM Anakin was plausible and HC wasn't, the TPM and Shaw > Anakins had more similar physiques, rounded faces and the ability to look > genuinely happy>>

Rounded faces... almost every kid I've seen has a rounded face. Then
they turn into teenagers and get gawky. Then they get old and fat.
Anyway, same deal, don't see any resemblance or matching up between
that little kid and the old Anakin at end of ROTJ, other than they are
both human.
I never saw the little kid look genuinely happy either, he was always
doing a one-sided smirk with his mouth. Always looked grumpy or
disinterested or shy. Not exactly a male Shirley Temple (including the
acting department.) As for HC in the roast scene it looked more like a
"awwwwww, you knew I was gonna turn good in the end didn't you, you
rascals?" subdued grin to me, which I suprisingly liked more than just
the old guy standing there smiling like "hey whadaya know, I'm not dead
after all." Didn't think I was gonna like that change when I heard
about it (long after Lucas had made it) but when I saw it, I did.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175701 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 22:10
frenchy  
To sum up my feelings:
The kid - ok job for the average kid, not very good for an actor kid...
passable, I like him better on subsequent watchings
HC - A great big dud in 2, but really really clicked for 95% of the
time in 3.
The old guy when in the roast scene - who gives a hoot, he's on screen
for 5 seconds with no lines. When I saw the movie 20 years ago I
didn't even notice he was standing there (I was probably thinking "who
the hell is he?" but I don't remember.)
The old guy with mask pulled off - I always loved that scene, he had
English accent, Vader didn't, didn't bother me. (Should it?)
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175710 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 00:44
Anybody  
In article <1133385053.825548.12410 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"frenchy" <mf101723 [at] msn.com> wrote:

> The old guy when in the roast scene - who gives a hoot, he's on screen
> for 5 seconds with no lines. When I saw the movie 20 years ago I
> didn't even notice he was standing there (I was probably thinking "who
> the hell is he?" but I don't remember.)
>
> The old guy with mask pulled off - I always loved that scene, he had
> English accent, Vader didn't, didn't bother me. (Should it?)

These were both the same person: Sebastian Shaw, so he did have lines.

The guy who played the part of Vader was David Prowse (voiced of course
by James Earl Jones), but his face was always hidden behind the mask.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175715 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 01:17
frenchy  
Yeah I just mean at the end of VI he didn't have any lines or do
anything but stand there. And not even a closeup. And even now I don't
associate the two appearances, they were so different looking, and the
one appearance was almost non-existent.
I suppose one could say James Earl Jones sort-of kind-of has an English
accent, but it's more American/Shakesperean sounding, whereas Shaw was
total English-accent in the death scene.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175716 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 01:27
frenchy  
I dunno, I just don't watch the Star Wars movies like this either
way... I mean sitting there trying to reconcile this movie with the
last one or the one before that. I just sit down and get into the one
I'm watching right now. I can't imagine having fun at a movie worrying
about oh this Anakin doesn't exactly match what I thought he was
supposed to do because of what so-and-so said to what's-his-name 2
movies ago. And when I look at Ep3 by itself I see the one that really
tugged at me and thrilled me the most and was the most emotional.
So the fat bald guy thing rings true with me, if it's something THAT
huge then I have to stop and say wait a minute! Otherwise I try my
darndest to go with the flow. I suppose I have a tendency to try to
like a movie, not try to not like it, I walk out happier. And I loved
EP3!
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175717 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 02:12
frenchy  
Lots of people said the acting sucked in the first Star Wars, I didn't
listen to them either.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175730 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 04:40
frenchy  
<<I was thinking of HC's acting skills which don't exist.>>

Sure they do. You just plain don't like the guy.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175732 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 04:42
frenchy  
<<<I wasn't making the connection with scarface >>>

Uh-oh, you're starting to talk like me now... run for the hills! : )
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175747 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 11:50
Doc  
"frenchy" <mf101723 [at] msn.com> wrote in message
news:1133408416.949718.95970 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> <<I was thinking of HC's acting skills which don't exist.>>
>
> Sure they do. You just plain don't like the guy.

I just plain think he's not much of an actor, and certainly they could have
done far better. But I suspect that Lucas is as much to blame for that as
anyone. His script sucked too.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175748 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 11:54
Doc  
"frenchy" <mf101723 [at] msn.com> wrote in message
news:1133396827.744967.42390 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I dunno, I just don't watch the Star Wars movies like this either
> way... I mean sitting there trying to reconcile this movie with the
> last one or the one before that. I just sit down and get into the one
> I'm watching right now. I can't imagine having fun at a movie worrying
> about oh this Anakin doesn't exactly match what I thought he was
> supposed to do because of what so-and-so said to what's-his-name 2
> movies ago. And when I look at Ep3 by itself I see the one that really
> tugged at me and thrilled me the most and was the most emotional.
> So the fat bald guy thing rings true with me, if it's something THAT
> huge then I have to stop and say wait a minute! Otherwise I try my
> darndest to go with the flow. I suppose I have a tendency to try to
> like a movie, not try to not like it, I walk out happier. And I loved
> EP3!

I've watched all of them, flaws and all. But I thought HC's presence was
really jarring. I was never able to see him as Anakin/Vader. I just saw an
amateur knucklehead in a costume reciting lines and scowling a lot.
Re: Another thought on why HC didn't fit as Anakin/Vader [message #175757 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 18:40
frenchy  
Granted, I think not liking HC's acting skills is on more solid ground
for not liking the 'new' Anakin than fretting over what Obi said in one
sentence 20 years ago. All I remembered from VI was that Obi told Luke
that Anakin was his father, Vader killed him, was a brave guy or
something or other like that and, hey, here's his light saber. I can
recite the script to Scarface, not Star Wars : )
Vorheriges Thema:General Grievous
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