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Science Fiction » alt.fan.starwars » yet another star Wars question
yet another star Wars question [message #174272] Sa, 26 November 2005 18:32
Jake Blues  
The reason Han Solo gave Luke Skywalker and Co. passage to the Alderan
system was to get his hands on some fast cash. He dumped a load of
spice he was smuggling for Jabba, and Jabba wanted a refund on his
lost shipment. Solo eventually got his reward for rescuing Princess
Lea and departed for Tatuoine to repay Jabba the Hutt, leaving the
rebels behind to make their stand against the death star. His
conscience got the better of him though, and he returned, covering
Luke while Luke fired the torpedo which destroyed the death star.

At the beginning of TESB, why is HAn still with the rebels? Why didn't
he repay Jabba after all the victory ceremonies were over? Presumably,
he still had his reward money abaord the Falcon. But he never made the
trip back to Tatuoine to repay Jabba. Why not? The bounty hunters were
still after him, and one of them eventually got him, albeit through
indirect means.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #174273 ] Sa, 26 November 2005 19:26
SpammersDie  
> At the beginning of TESB, why is HAn still with the rebels? Why didn't
> he repay Jabba after all the victory ceremonies were over? Presumably,
> he still had his reward money abaord the Falcon.

Well since the rebels don't have a lot of petty cash handy, they paid him in
the form of indigent Yavin 4 narcotics which Solo figured he could unload
for a fortune since he would be the sole supplier after the Death Star
vaporized the moon.

Unfortunately for Solo, Yavin 4 survived so his reward didn't even pay for
the gas he used during the whole Alderaan trip.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #174274 ] Sa, 26 November 2005 19:30
Jake Blues  
"SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote in message
news:gN1if.173365$zb5.165797 [at] bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > At the beginning of TESB, why is HAn still with the rebels? Why
didn't
> > he repay Jabba after all the victory ceremonies were over?
Presumably,
> > he still had his reward money abaord the Falcon.
>
> Well since the rebels don't have a lot of petty cash handy, they
paid him in
> the form of indigent Yavin 4 narcotics which Solo figured he could
unload
> for a fortune since he would be the sole supplier after the Death
Star
> vaporized the moon.
>
> Unfortunately for Solo, Yavin 4 survived so his reward didn't even
pay for
>
What the hell are you talking about?
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #174277 ] Sa, 26 November 2005 20:09
DKM  
"Jake Blues" <5htp [at] bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:LW0if.36621$6y4.10734 [at] bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> The reason Han Solo gave Luke Skywalker and Co. passage to the Alderan
> system was to get his hands on some fast cash. He dumped a load of
> spice he was smuggling for Jabba, and Jabba wanted a refund on his
> lost shipment. Solo eventually got his reward for rescuing Princess
> Lea and departed for Tatuoine to repay Jabba the Hutt, leaving the
> rebels behind to make their stand against the death star. His
> conscience got the better of him though, and he returned, covering
> Luke while Luke fired the torpedo which destroyed the death star.
>
> At the beginning of TESB, why is HAn still with the rebels? Why didn't
> he repay Jabba after all the victory ceremonies were over? Presumably,
> he still had his reward money abaord the Falcon. But he never made the
> trip back to Tatuoine to repay Jabba. Why not? The bounty hunters were
> still after him, and one of them eventually got him, albeit through
> indirect means.

It made the story more interesting.

But probably it was one of those he kep meaning to but something always
happened, first he had to help the rebels move, then he had to help get them
re-established and of course he was hot for the skywalker girl.

DKM
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #174305 ] So, 27 November 2005 06:25
Greg Goss  
"SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:

>> At the beginning of TESB, why is HAn still with the rebels? Why didn't
>> he repay Jabba after all the victory ceremonies were over? Presumably,
>> he still had his reward money abaord the Falcon.
>
>Well since the rebels don't have a lot of petty cash handy, they paid him in
>the form of indigent Yavin 4 narcotics which Solo figured he could unload
>for a fortune since he would be the sole supplier after the Death Star
>vaporized the moon.
>
>Unfortunately for Solo, Yavin 4 survived so his reward didn't even pay for
>the gas he used during the whole Alderaan trip.
>

I think that the troll meant Endor. But what's this about survival?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endor_Holocaust
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #174306 ] So, 27 November 2005 07:47
Karrde  
"Greg Goss" <gossg [at] gossg.org> wrote in message
news:3usuc3F12sci0U1 [at] individual.net...
>
> I think that the troll meant Endor. But what's this about survival?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endor_Holocaust

This is exactly the kind of thing that helps prove my theory that wiki is
evil and must be destroyed.

--
--K
http://afssmugglersalliance.tripod.com/afs_faq.html

Current Action Figure Count: 1249
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175612 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 16:49
Raven  
In alt.fan.cecil-adams Jake Blues <5htp [at] bellsouth.net> wrote:
<snip>
> At the beginning of TESB, why is HAn still with the rebels? Why didn't
> he repay Jabba after all the victory ceremonies were over? Presumably,
> he still had his reward money abaord the Falcon. But he never made the
> trip back to Tatuoine to repay Jabba. Why not?

Becuase his concience had gotten the better of him, asa you recall, and he
had to stick around and help out. Just because the DS was destroyed
didn't mean that the rebels were free and clear on Yavin-4, the Empire
knew where they were, they had to bug out right after the medal scene.
There were numerous adventures and Solo always felt needed.



John
--
Remove the dead poet to e-mail, tho CC'd posts are unwelcome.
Mean People Suck - It takes two deviations to get cool.
Ask me about joining the NRA.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175614 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 17:27
Richmond  
"DKM" <dkmfwtx [at] nospam.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mp2if.20679$7h7.8284 [at] newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Jake Blues" <5htp [at] bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:LW0if.36621$6y4.10734 [at] bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>> The reason Han Solo gave Luke Skywalker and Co. passage to the Alderan
>> system was to get his hands on some fast cash. He dumped a load of
>> spice he was smuggling for Jabba, and Jabba wanted a refund on his
>> lost shipment. Solo eventually got his reward for rescuing Princess
>> Lea and departed for Tatuoine to repay Jabba the Hutt, leaving the
>> rebels behind to make their stand against the death star. His
>> conscience got the better of him though, and he returned, covering
>> Luke while Luke fired the torpedo which destroyed the death star.
>>
>> At the beginning of TESB, why is HAn still with the rebels? Why didn't
>> he repay Jabba after all the victory ceremonies were over? Presumably,
>> he still had his reward money abaord the Falcon. But he never made the
>> trip back to Tatuoine to repay Jabba. Why not? The bounty hunters were
>> still after him, and one of them eventually got him, albeit through
>> indirect means.
>
> It made the story more interesting.
>
> But probably it was one of those he kep meaning to but something always
> happened, first he had to help the rebels move, then he had to help get
> them re-established and of course he was hot for the skywalker girl.
>
> DKM

If you believe the Marvel series at all (which I enjoyed, so I do), Han left
the Rebels and was immediately hijacked by the space pirate Crimson Jack.

B.

(here come the Marvel-haters...)
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175617 ] Mo, 28 November 2005 18:39
dzeiger  
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:49:36 GMT, raven [at] westnet.poe.com <raven [at] westnet.poe.com>
wrote:
>Becuase his concience had gotten the better of him, asa you recall, and he
>had to stick around and help out. Just because the DS was destroyed
>didn't mean that the rebels were free and clear on Yavin-4, the Empire
>knew where they were, they had to bug out right after the medal scene.
>There were numerous adventures and Solo always felt needed.

Also, you have to figure he went from "Wanted for illegal
smuggling" to "Public Enemy Number 2" after opening fire
on Vader and accepting Rebel medals and officer comissions.

So even if he wanted to deprive the Rebels of a chunk of the
hard cash they had left, he probably would have had a hard
time delivering it to a group including tons of people that
wouldn't hesitate to turn him over to the Empire for whatever
reward money they were offering.

--
David Zeiger dzeiger [at] the-institute.net
Whenever I find myself in a difficult situation, I ask myself "What
Would Jesus Do?" The mental image of my opposition being cast into
pits of hellfire for all eternity *is* comforting, but probably not
what the inventors of the phrase had in mind.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175630 ] Di, 29 November 2005 01:39
SpammersDie  
"David Zeiger" <dzeiger [at] the-institute.net> wrote in message
news:slrndomfjc.21d.dzeiger [at] vampire.the-institute.net...
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:49:36 GMT, raven [at] westnet.poe.com
> <raven [at] westnet.poe.com>
> wrote:
>>Becuase his concience had gotten the better of him, asa you recall, and he
>>had to stick around and help out. Just because the DS was destroyed
>>didn't mean that the rebels were free and clear on Yavin-4, the Empire
>>knew where they were, they had to bug out right after the medal scene.
>>There were numerous adventures and Solo always felt needed.
>
> Also, you have to figure he went from "Wanted for illegal
> smuggling" to "Public Enemy Number 2" after opening fire
> on Vader and accepting Rebel medals and officer comissions.
>
> So even if he wanted to deprive the Rebels of a chunk of the
> hard cash they had left, he probably would have had a hard
> time delivering it to a group including tons of people that
> wouldn't hesitate to turn him over to the Empire for whatever
> reward money they were offering.

Except it was the other way around: the Empire turned Solo over to Jabba
because he was useless to them once he'd served his purpose of luring Luke
to Bespin. If Solo was worth any bounty money to the Empire at that point,
they wouldn't have let him go.

Vader acted pretty pragmatically regarding the Death Star debacle. He didn't
go after specific people just for the purpose of vengeance. He went after
them with the objective of getting his kid back or for furthering the
Empire's military objectives - once they stopped being useful in that
regard, he lost interest in them and turned them over to others. And Solo
may have gotten a lucky shot in that trench but in the overall scheme of
things, he's just not that important militarily.

In any case, Solo was departing Hoth at the start of ESB with the express
objective of paying back Jabba so he clearly wasn't afraid of approaching
Jabba.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175632 ] Di, 29 November 2005 02:40
dzeiger  
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:39:59 GMT, SpammersDie <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:
>Except it was the other way around: the Empire turned Solo over to Jabba
>because he was useless to them once he'd served his purpose of luring Luke
>to Bespin. If Solo was worth any bounty money to the Empire at that point,
>they wouldn't have let him go.

Your last statement makes very little sense, there's no reason the
Empire would hold Solo to get reward money from the Empire.

In any case, different time, different situation. Remember,
ESB is some 5 years or so after the Death Star's destruction,
plenty of time for plans to be made and plans to change.

*Immediately* after the Death Star's destruction everyone's going
to be on high alert, high command is probably going through a
signifigant shakeup and bagging Solo would be an excellent way
to advance their position.

>In any case, Solo was departing Hoth at the start of ESB with the express
>objective of paying back Jabba so he clearly wasn't afraid of approaching
>Jabba.

Again, years later. Plenty of time for Empire forces, particularly
ones on fringe outposts, to slide back into lasy and/or corrupt ways,
so that Jabba once again becomes more of a direct threat to Solo
than the Imperials.

--
David Zeiger dzeiger [at] the-institute.net
Whenever I find myself in a difficult situation, I ask myself "What
Would Jesus Do?" The mental image of my opposition being cast into
pits of hellfire for all eternity *is* comforting, but probably not
what the inventors of the phrase had in mind.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175642 ] Di, 29 November 2005 09:57
Andrew Gore  
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:40:23 -0000, dzeiger [at] the-institute.net (David
Zeiger) wrote:

->
->On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:39:59 GMT, SpammersDie <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:
->>Except it was the other way around: the Empire turned Solo over to
Jabba
->>because he was useless to them once he'd served his purpose of
luring Luke
->>to Bespin. If Solo was worth any bounty money to the Empire at that
point,
->>they wouldn't have let him go.
->
->Your last statement makes very little sense, there's no reason the
->Empire would hold Solo to get reward money from the Empire.

The Empire would get bounty reward money from Jabba, money
actually claimed by Boba fett. Isn't it shown in SWII that the entire
Imperial Stormtrooper force are actually clones of Boba under all that
body armor?

My question: In SW4, is it made clear that , in picking up
Luke and Obiwan on Tattooine, did Solo dump another load to make room
for them? And what was that laod? "Spice"? What is this, Dune? Wasn't
it some sort of naughty stuff from Kessel?
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175643 ] Di, 29 November 2005 11:09
Lots42  
Andrew Gore wrote:

> The Empire would get bounty reward money from Jabba, money
> actually claimed by Boba fett. Isn't it shown in SWII that the entire
> Imperial Stormtrooper force are actually clones of Boba under all that
> body armor?

Boba's dad.

And, since Luke kept wanting to go to the Imperial Academy, it seems to
me that they recruited goobers to fill out the Stromtrooper armor.

Sarcasm: After all, Luke and Han would have commented on how alike the
two troopers they waylaid looked.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175644 ] Di, 29 November 2005 12:02
Andrew Murray  
"Greg Goss" <gossg [at] gossg.org> wrote in message
news:3usuc3F12sci0U1 [at] individual.net...
> "SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:
>
>>> At the beginning of TESB, why is HAn still with the rebels? Why didn't
>>> he repay Jabba after all the victory ceremonies were over? Presumably,
>>> he still had his reward money abaord the Falcon.
>>
>>Well since the rebels don't have a lot of petty cash handy, they paid him
>>in
>>the form of indigent Yavin 4 narcotics which Solo figured he could unload
>>for a fortune since he would be the sole supplier after the Death Star
>>vaporized the moon.
>>
>>Unfortunately for Solo, Yavin 4 survived so his reward didn't even pay for
>>the gas he used during the whole Alderaan trip.
>>
>
> I think that the troll meant Endor. But what's this about survival?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endor_Holocaust
> --
> Tomorrow is today already.
> Greg Goss, 1989-01-27

"Survival" as in Yavin 4 survived the threat from being blown to kingdom
come by the Death Star.

"Gas...?" - don't you mean Warp Plasma? or Dylithium Crystals?
ha ha.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175645 ] Di, 29 November 2005 12:05
Andrew Murray  
"David Zeiger" <dzeiger [at] the-institute.net> wrote in message
news:slrndomfjc.21d.dzeiger [at] vampire.the-institute.net...
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:49:36 GMT, raven [at] westnet.poe.com
> <raven [at] westnet.poe.com>
> wrote:
>>Becuase his concience had gotten the better of him, asa you recall, and he
>>had to stick around and help out. Just because the DS was destroyed
>>didn't mean that the rebels were free and clear on Yavin-4, the Empire
>>knew where they were, they had to bug out right after the medal scene.
>>There were numerous adventures and Solo always felt needed.
>
> Also, you have to figure he went from "Wanted for illegal
> smuggling" to "Public Enemy Number 2" after opening fire
> on Vader and accepting Rebel medals and officer comissions.
>
> So even if he wanted to deprive the Rebels of a chunk of the
> hard cash they had left, he probably would have had a hard
> time delivering it to a group including tons of people that
> wouldn't hesitate to turn him over to the Empire for whatever
> reward money they were offering.
>
Agreed on the point of the Empire offering rewards; there was a substantial
reward for the bounty hunter who managed to track down and find the
Millennium Falcon; I wonder if Fett got the bounty from Vader AND from
Jabba?
Vader got what he wanted - the Falcon/Luke
Jabba finally got what he wanted: Han's head on a platter (so to speak).
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175646 ] Di, 29 November 2005 12:10
Andrew Murray  
"Andrew Gore" <dice911 [at] charter.net> wrote in message
news:4b5oo1papvl98f11fe41b619rms0ncgfsa [at] 4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:40:23 -0000, dzeiger [at] the-institute.net (David
> Zeiger) wrote:
>
> ->
> ->On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:39:59 GMT, SpammersDie <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:
> ->>Except it was the other way around: the Empire turned Solo over to
> Jabba
> ->>because he was useless to them once he'd served his purpose of
> luring Luke
> ->>to Bespin. If Solo was worth any bounty money to the Empire at that
> point,
> ->>they wouldn't have let him go.
> ->
> ->Your last statement makes very little sense, there's no reason the
> ->Empire would hold Solo to get reward money from the Empire.
>
> The Empire would get bounty reward money from Jabba, money
> actually claimed by Boba fett. Isn't it shown in SWII that the entire
> Imperial Stormtrooper force are actually clones of Boba under all that
> body armor?
>
> My question: In SW4, is it made clear that , in picking up
> Luke and Obiwan on Tattooine, did Solo dump another load to make room
> for them? And what was that laod? "Spice"? What is this, Dune? Wasn't
> it some sort of naughty stuff from Kessel?
>
Probably equivalent of drug smuggling (eg cocaine or some such
thing)....since it seems the stuff was worth a fortune, else Jabba wouldn't
make such a fuss over losing it - probably worth its weight in gold pressed
latinum!
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175648 ] Di, 29 November 2005 15:28
Raven  
In alt.fan.cecil-adams Lots42 <lots42 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> Andrew Gore wrote:

> > The Empire would get bounty reward money from Jabba, money
> > actually claimed by Boba fett. Isn't it shown in SWII that the entire
> > Imperial Stormtrooper force are actually clones of Boba under all that
> > body armor?

> Boba's dad.

Boba is himself a clone of his dad, so they're all geneticly identical.

> And, since Luke kept wanting to go to the Imperial Academy, it seems to
> me that they recruited goobers to fill out the Stromtrooper armor.

Nah, the goobers got to wear the olive uniforms and have chicklets on
thier chest.

> Sarcasm: After all, Luke and Han would have commented on how alike the
> two troopers they waylaid looked.

Nah, it's widely known that troopers are clones.


John
--
Remove the dead poet to e-mail, tho CC'd posts are unwelcome.
Mean People Suck - It takes two deviations to get cool.
Ask me about joining the NRA.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175649 ] Di, 29 November 2005 16:41
Lots42  
raven [at] westnet.poe.com wrote:
> In alt.fan.cecil-adams Lots42 <lots42 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

> > And, since Luke kept wanting to go to the Imperial Academy, it seems to
> > me that they recruited goobers to fill out the Stromtrooper armor.
>
> Nah, the goobers got to wear the olive uniforms and have chicklets on
> thier chest.

That's gotta suck. I'm suprised there hasn't been a clone trooper
rebellion.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175653 ] Di, 29 November 2005 18:31
Raven  
In alt.fan.cecil-adams Lots42 <lots42 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> raven [at] westnet.poe.com wrote:
> > In alt.fan.cecil-adams Lots42 <lots42 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

> > > And, since Luke kept wanting to go to the Imperial Academy, it seems to
> > > me that they recruited goobers to fill out the Stromtrooper armor.
> >
> > Nah, the goobers got to wear the olive uniforms and have chicklets on
> > thier chest.

> That's gotta suck. I'm suprised there hasn't been a clone trooper
> rebellion.

There would be if they weren't what was it? genetically treated to take
orders or somesuch?


John
--
Remove the dead poet to e-mail, tho CC'd posts are unwelcome.
Mean People Suck - It takes two deviations to get cool.
Ask me about joining the NRA.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175662 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 02:51
jmbay  
Andrew Gore <dice911 [at] charter.net> writes:

>On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:40:23 -0000, dzeiger [at] the-institute.net (David
>Zeiger) wrote:

>->
>->On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:39:59 GMT, SpammersDie <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote:
>->>Except it was the other way around: the Empire turned Solo over to
>Jabba
>->>because he was useless to them once he'd served his purpose of
>luring Luke
>->>to Bespin. If Solo was worth any bounty money to the Empire at that
>point,
>->>they wouldn't have let him go.

>->Your last statement makes very little sense, there's no reason the
>->Empire would hold Solo to get reward money from the Empire.

> The Empire would get bounty reward money from Jabba, money
>actually claimed by Boba fett.

I think the meaning is that if the Solo were worth a bounty to the
Empire, that would mean the Empire wanted to have *him*. And they
wouldn't have let him be taken to Jabba if they wanted to keep him.

>Isn't it shown in SWII that the entire
>Imperial Stormtrooper force are actually clones of Boba under all that
>body armor?

Pretty much, yeah. Vader probably forgot about that because of
the same head injury that made him forget R2D2, C3PO, the fact that
he had two kids, etc.

> My question: In SW4, is it made clear that , in picking up
>Luke and Obiwan on Tattooine, did Solo dump another load to make room
>for them? And what was that laod? "Spice"? What is this, Dune? Wasn't
>it some sort of naughty stuff from Kessel?

I think the only reference to Han dumping cargo was the one where
he was being scanned (and probably boarded) by Imperial ships. It
was spice. From Kessel.

(Also, supposedly there's a dangerous short-cut from Kessel to wherever
that passes by some black holes or something, and Han is one of the
few pilots good enough to do the Kessel run in 12 parsecs, although I
think this is retroactive continuity and Lucas used "parsec" as if it
were a unit of time instead of distance).
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175666 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 04:15
Andrew Gore  
On 29 Nov 2005 02:09:51 -0800, "Lots42" <lots42 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

->
->> The Empire would get bounty reward money from Jabba, money
->> actually claimed by Boba fett. Isn't it shown in SWII that the
entire
->> Imperial Stormtrooper force are actually clones of Boba under all
that
->> body armor?
->
->Boba's dad.

Are you sure? What is Boba's dad's name? Isn't the one that
was chasing Solo around the galaxy? Wasn't he the one living on
Camino that the clone-makers got the DNA from to create the clone
army? Isn't his son named Jango? And isn't his "son" actually another
clone of himself, just not genetically modified (unlike the clone
army)?

->
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175667 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 05:30
Joe Shimkus  
In article <j16qo1dn4vo0kkgnies205guplvbsuua5l [at] 4ax.com>,
Andrew Gore <dice911 [at] charter.net> wrote:

> On 29 Nov 2005 02:09:51 -0800, "Lots42" <lots42 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ->
> ->> The Empire would get bounty reward money from Jabba, money
> ->> actually claimed by Boba fett. Isn't it shown in SWII that the
> entire
> ->> Imperial Stormtrooper force are actually clones of Boba under all
> that
> ->> body armor?
> ->
> ->Boba's dad.

Or Boba; he being an unaltered clone of Jango.

>
> Are you sure? What is Boba's dad's name? Isn't the one that
> was chasing Solo around the galaxy? Wasn't he the one living on
> Camino that the clone-makers got the DNA from to create the clone
> army? Isn't his son named Jango? And isn't his "son" actually another
> clone of himself, just not genetically modified (unlike the clone
> army)?
>

Jango was the "father"; Boba the "son."

--
PGP Key (DH/DSS): http://www.shimkus.com/public_key.asc
PGP Fingerprint: 89B4 52DA CF10 EE03 02AD 9134 21C6 2A68 CE52 EE1A
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175670 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 06:34
dzeiger  
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 01:51:56 +0000 (UTC), Joseph Michael Bay
<jmbay [at] Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>
>(Also, supposedly there's a dangerous short-cut from Kessel to wherever
>that passes by some black holes or something, and Han is one of the
>few pilots good enough to do the Kessel run in 12 parsecs, although I
>think this is retroactive continuity and Lucas used "parsec" as if it
>were a unit of time instead of distance).

My understanding--and this may well have come from some sort of
Lucas revisionism--was that Lucas knew very well what a parsec
was, but he was attempting some subtle characterization that
didn't come across very well.

That is Solo, seeing an old geezer and a farm boy, thinks he
may be able to get a little more money out of them by impressing
them with a bunch of techie-sounding nonsensical bullshit.

Kenobi, not being fooled, does roll his eyes after this remark.

If this is true, however, most people didn't catch it, jumping
on the thought that this was just a mistake. As a result,
the idea of the Kessel Run being around a field of black
holes where you try and minimize your distance was developed
by one of the authors of Star Wars books that came out in the
early 90s. These books were authorized by Lucasfilms, but
they are not official canon.

--
David Zeiger dzeiger [at] the-institute.net
Whenever I find myself in a difficult situation, I ask myself "What
Would Jesus Do?" The mental image of my opposition being cast into
pits of hellfire for all eternity *is* comforting, but probably not
what the inventors of the phrase had in mind.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175693 ] Mi, 30 November 2005 15:34
Dhubghall  
In alt.fan.cecil-adams raven [at] westnet.poe.com wrote:
> In alt.fan.cecil-adams Lots42 <lots42 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> > Andrew Gore wrote:

> > > The Empire would get bounty reward money from Jabba, money
> > > actually claimed by Boba fett. Isn't it shown in SWII that the entire
> > > Imperial Stormtrooper force are actually clones of Boba under all that
> > > body armor?

> > Boba's dad.

> Boba is himself a clone of his dad, so they're all geneticly identical.

> > And, since Luke kept wanting to go to the Imperial Academy, it seems to
> > me that they recruited goobers to fill out the Stromtrooper armor.

> Nah, the goobers got to wear the olive uniforms and have chicklets on
> thier chest.

> > Sarcasm: After all, Luke and Han would have commented on how alike the
> > two troopers they waylaid looked.

> Nah, it's widely known that troopers are clones.

Apparently only the early batches were clones. At some point they started
recruiting as its mentioned in at least one of the novels that I picked
up on tape for an upcoming long-assed car trip. Although this was before
the new movies so no idea if that was retconned or not.

Dougall
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175720 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 02:26
Lots42  
David Zeiger wrote:
-12 parsecs-
>> My understanding--and this may well have come from some sort of
> Lucas revisionism--was that Lucas knew very well what a parsec
> was, but he was attempting some subtle characterization that
> didn't come across very well.
>
> That is Solo, seeing an old geezer and a farm boy, thinks he
> may be able to get a little more money out of them by impressing
> them with a bunch of techie-sounding nonsensical bullshit.
>

I just took it as 'Cool! An area of space where distance is relative!'.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175722 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 03:08
plausible prose man  
Lots42 wrote:
> David Zeiger wrote:
> -12 parsecs-
> >> My understanding--and this may well have come from some sort of
> > Lucas revisionism--was that Lucas knew very well what a parsec
> > was, but he was attempting some subtle characterization that
> > didn't come across very well.
> >
> > That is Solo, seeing an old geezer and a farm boy, thinks he
> > may be able to get a little more money out of them by impressing
> > them with a bunch of techie-sounding nonsensical bullshit.
> >
>
> I just took it as 'Cool! An area of space where distance is relative!'.

I always assumed it had something to do with the 'jump to hyperspace'
and folding the S/TC and Han boasting he could do it better than anyone.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175744 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 10:11
Mark Steese  
dzeiger [at] the-institute.net (David Zeiger) wrote in
news:slrndoqdqa.64t.dzeiger [at] vampire.the-institute.net:

> On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 01:51:56 +0000 (UTC), Joseph Michael Bay
> <jmbay [at] Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>>
>>(Also, supposedly there's a dangerous short-cut from Kessel to
>>wherever that passes by some black holes or something, and Han is one
>>of the few pilots good enough to do the Kessel run in 12 parsecs,
>>although I think this is retroactive continuity and Lucas used
>>"parsec" as if it were a unit of time instead of distance).
>
> My understanding--and this may well have come from some sort of
> Lucas revisionism--was that Lucas knew very well what a parsec
> was, but he was attempting some subtle characterization that
> didn't come across very well.
>
> That is Solo, seeing an old geezer and a farm boy, thinks he
> may be able to get a little more money out of them by impressing
> them with a bunch of techie-sounding nonsensical bullshit.

As characterization, that makes no sense and contradicts everything we
know about Solo's character, and since we're talking about George Lucas,
that makes it almost plausible.

> Kenobi, not being fooled, does roll his eyes after this remark.

I don't remember Sir Alec rolling his eyes, but if he did, I suspect he
wasn't doing so in character. As Harrison Ford famously told Lucas,
"George, you can type this stuff, but you sure as hell can't say it."

> If this is true, however, most people didn't catch it, jumping
> on the thought that this was just a mistake.

Well, like I said, if Han is deliberately lying, it makes no sense. He's
not a con man trying to sell Ben and Luke a spaceship that he secretly
knows is a piece of junk: he thinks of himself as a hell of a pilot with
a hell of a ship (and both opinions prove to be justified). Exaggerating
his accomplishments is in character, but making up bullshit? No. (In
fact, one of the best scenes in the movie hinges on Han's *inability* to
make up convincing-sounding bullshit -- "Uh...we had a slight weapons
malfunction. But, uh, everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine.
We're all fine here, now, thank you. How are you?" (Ford's expression
after he says that last line is priceless.)

> As a result, the idea of the Kessel Run being around a field of black
> holes where you try and minimize your distance was developed
> by one of the authors of Star Wars books that came out in the
> early 90s. These books were authorized by Lucasfilms, but
> they are not official canon.

If Lucas displayed any knowledge of astronomy and physics anywhere else
in his movies, it would be a lot easier to buy into the "deliberate
mistake" notion.
--
Mark Steese
===========
The first signs of the death of the boom came in the summer,
early, and everything went like snow in the sun.
Out of their office windows. There was miasma,
a weight beyond enduring, the city reeked of failure.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175764 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 22:30
dzeiger  
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 09:11:06 GMT, Mark Steese <mark_steese [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>As characterization, that makes no sense and contradicts everything we
>know about Solo's character, and since we're talking about George Lucas,
>that makes it almost plausible.

Ah, here we go

http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/kessel/?id=bts

Unfortunately, despite my Star Wars geekdom, I do not have
a copy of the screenplay to confirm this myself.

> Exaggerating
>his accomplishments is in character, but making up bullshit? No. (In
>fact, one of the best scenes in the movie hinges on Han's *inability* to
>make up convincing-sounding bullshit

Wouldn't an on-the-fly mix of speed and distance measurements
qualify as a bad attempt at making up convincing bullshit?


--
David Zeiger dzeiger [at] the-institute.net
Whenever I find myself in a difficult situation, I ask myself "What
Would Jesus Do?" The mental image of my opposition being cast into
pits of hellfire for all eternity *is* comforting, but probably not
what the inventors of the phrase had in mind.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175766 ] Do, 01 Dezember 2005 23:20
Mark Steese  
dzeiger [at] the-institute.net (David Zeiger) wrote in
news:slrndouq7c.b4k.dzeiger [at] vampire.the-institute.net:

> On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 09:11:06 GMT, Mark Steese <mark_steese [at] yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>As characterization, that makes no sense and contradicts everything we
>>know about Solo's character, and since we're talking about George
>>Lucas, that makes it almost plausible.
>
> Ah, here we go
>
> http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/kessel/?id=bts

Hmm. "Given that a parsec is a unit of measurement and not of time, it
hardly seemed like a speed record." Sounds like someone's still a little
unclear on the concept: it's *what* parsecs measure that's important,
not the fact that they're units of measurement. Did the person who wrote
that think that seconds, hours, days, etc., are *not* units of
measurement?

> Unfortunately, despite my Star Wars geekdom, I do not have
> a copy of the screenplay to confirm this myself.
>
>>Exaggerating his accomplishments is in character, but making up
>>bullshit? No. (In fact, one of the best scenes in the movie hinges on
>>Han's *inability* to make up convincing-sounding bullshit
>
> Wouldn't an on-the-fly mix of speed and distance measurements
> qualify as a bad attempt at making up convincing bullshit?

Maybe, if it were established *in the context of the movie* that he was
confusing time and distance, if the scene were played in such a way as
to indicate that he was lying rather than boasting, and he was called
out on the lie (as he is in the cellblock scene). You noted that Ben
Kenobi rolls his eyes after Han makes the claim, but that works just as
well if we assume that Lucas really thought parsecs were a measure of
time and Solo was saying something along the lines of "My 'vette's so
fast I can get from New York to L.A. in twelve hours." In fact, if we
assume Ben knows what a parsec is, it's a little odd that he keeps
negotiating with Han, whom he is obliged to conclude is either a lying
sack of shit or a complete ignoramus.

The most plausible explanation is that Lucas didn't know what the word
parsec meant and is too embarrassed to admit that he made a mistake. If
it were me, I'd say "Yeah, I didn't know what a parsec was, and yet I'm
a billionaire now. In your face, fanboys!" Doubtless they would've been
offended, but at least I would've worked out my anger at them without
spending a ton of money making prequels.
--
Mark Steese
===========
The first signs of the death of the boom came in the summer,
early, and everything went like snow in the sun.
Out of their office windows. There was miasma,
a weight beyond enduring, the city reeked of failure.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175768 ] Fr, 02 Dezember 2005 00:56
Peter Boulding  
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:20:10 GMT, Mark Steese <mark_steese [at] yahoo.com> wrote
in <Xns971F91D7A76ESteese [at] 69.28.186.121>:

>The most plausible explanation is that Lucas didn't know what the word
>parsec meant and is too embarrassed to admit that he made a mistake.

<opens NSOED>

parsec n.E20. [f. PAR(ALLAX + SEC(OND n.1] Astron.

A unit of length equal to the distance at which a star would have a
heliocentric parallax of one second of arc, approx. equal to 3.09 × 10^16
metres (19.2 × 10^12 miles, 3.26 light-years).


I get the 3.26 light-years bit, but could someone please give me the rest in
English?

--
Regards
Peter Boulding
pjb [at] UNSPAMpboulding.co.uk (to e-mail, remove "UNSPAM")
Fractal music & images: http://www.pboulding.co.uk/
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175770 ] Fr, 02 Dezember 2005 01:46
dzeiger  
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:20:10 GMT, Mark Steese <mark_steese [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>dzeiger [at] the-institute.net (David Zeiger) wrote in
>news:slrndouq7c.b4k.dzeiger [at] vampire.the-institute.net:
>> http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/kessel/?id=bts
>
>Hmm. "Given that a parsec is a unit of measurement and not of time, it
>hardly seemed like a speed record."

Actually, I was looking at the quote

" Of course, the simplest solution is the one favored by George Lucas,
and the one that appeared in the screenplay for A New Hope. Han's boast
was nothing more than a lie, meant to hoodwink provincial customers.
Obi-Wan's knowing glance suggests he saw right through Solo's
meaningless bragging."

If it's in the screenplay, then that would seem pretty conclusive
that it's the effect Lucas was going for. You might not like
the way it characterizes Solo or Kenobi, but it would seem to
show that Lucas did indeed know what a parsec was.

--
David Zeiger dzeiger [at] the-institute.net
Whenever I find myself in a difficult situation, I ask myself "What
Would Jesus Do?" The mental image of my opposition being cast into
pits of hellfire for all eternity *is* comforting, but probably not
what the inventors of the phrase had in mind.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175773 ] Fr, 02 Dezember 2005 02:46
SpammersDie  
> In fact, if we
> assume Ben knows what a parsec is, it's a little odd that he keeps
> negotiating with Han, whom he is obliged to conclude is either a lying
> sack of shit or a complete ignoramus.

They didn't have a lot of time and the cantina isn't exactly full of honest,
upright and yet desperate-for-a-job pilots to choose from. Besides, Obi-Wan
probably figured that anyone Chewbacca would associate with is probably ok.
After all, Chewie did help out his old associate Yoda when they had that
little malfunction with the clones.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175782 ] Fr, 02 Dezember 2005 04:52
jmbay  
Peter Boulding <pjb [at] UNSPAMpboulding.co.uk> writes:

>On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:20:10 GMT, Mark Steese <mark_steese [at] yahoo.com> wrote
>in <Xns971F91D7A76ESteese [at] 69.28.186.121>:

>>The most plausible explanation is that Lucas didn't know what the word
>>parsec meant and is too embarrassed to admit that he made a mistake.

><opens NSOED>

>parsec n.E20. [f. PAR(ALLAX + SEC(OND n.1] Astron.

>A unit of length equal to the distance at which a star would have a
>heliocentric parallax of one second of arc,


>I get the 3.26 light-years bit, but could someone please give me the rest in
>English?

Yeah, so heliocentric parallax comes from the fact that you can
measure the distance to a really distant object by triangulation,
specifically by taking a reading of where it appears, relative to
a reference point, at two different angles (from two different
locations). Normally triangulation of, say, a landmark or a
signal is done in real time, or nearly so, from points a few
hundred meters apart. Heliocentric parallax is done from two
different points in the Earth's orbit (2 AU apart, where an AU
is the average distance between the Earth and the Sun).

Actually this page explains it better and in more detail:
http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys440/lectures/helio_para/hel io_para.html
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175783 ] Fr, 02 Dezember 2005 04:54
jmbay  
dzeiger [at] the-institute.net (David Zeiger) writes:

>On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:20:10 GMT, Mark Steese <mark_steese [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>dzeiger [at] the-institute.net (David Zeiger) wrote in
>>news:slrndouq7c.b4k.dzeiger [at] vampire.the-institute.net:
>>> http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/kessel/?id=bts
>>
>>Hmm. "Given that a parsec is a unit of measurement and not of time, it
>>hardly seemed like a speed record."

>Actually, I was looking at the quote

>" Of course, the simplest solution is the one favored by George Lucas,
>and the one that appeared in the screenplay for A New Hope. Han's boast
>was nothing more than a lie, meant to hoodwink provincial customers.
>Obi-Wan's knowing glance suggests he saw right through Solo's
>meaningless bragging."

>If it's in the screenplay, then that would seem pretty conclusive
>that it's the effect Lucas was going for. You might not like
>the way it characterizes Solo or Kenobi, but it would seem to
>show that Lucas did indeed know what a parsec was.

Of course Ben could have been rolling his eyes because he's impatient
with Solo's bragging (even if Solo's telling the truth and Ben knows
it).
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175784 ] Fr, 02 Dezember 2005 05:03
Joe Shimkus  
In article <e93vo1535p5pvksn1brt45v7pj4ssnd1os [at] 4ax.com>,
Peter Boulding <pjb [at] UNSPAMpboulding.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:20:10 GMT, Mark Steese <mark_steese [at] yahoo.com> wrote
> in <Xns971F91D7A76ESteese [at] 69.28.186.121>:
>
> >The most plausible explanation is that Lucas didn't know what the word
> >parsec meant and is too embarrassed to admit that he made a mistake.
>
> <opens NSOED>
>
> parsec n.E20. [f. PAR(ALLAX + SEC(OND n.1] Astron.
>
> A unit of length equal to the distance at which a star would have a
> heliocentric parallax of one second of arc, approx. equal to 3.09 × 10^16
> metres (19.2 × 10^12 miles, 3.26 light-years).
>
>
> I get the 3.26 light-years bit, but could someone please give me the rest in
> English?

Look at something on the other side of the room. Close one eye. Now
open that eye and close the other. Notice how the object appears to
shift position? That's it, except it's done with the earth on one side
of the sun and then again 6 months later and is the distance from the
sun where the object appears to move 1 second (1/60 degree).

--
PGP Key (DH/DSS): http://www.shimkus.com/public_key.asc
PGP Fingerprint: 89B4 52DA CF10 EE03 02AD 9134 21C6 2A68 CE52 EE1A
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175795 ] Fr, 02 Dezember 2005 10:32
Mark Steese  
dzeiger [at] the-institute.net (David Zeiger) wrote in
news:slrndov5mt.bgu.dzeiger [at] vampire.the-institute.net:

> On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:20:10 GMT, Mark Steese <mark_steese [at] yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>dzeiger [at] the-institute.net (David Zeiger) wrote in
>>news:slrndouq7c.b4k.dzeiger [at] vampire.the-institute.net:
>>> http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/kessel/?id=bts
>>
>>Hmm. "Given that a parsec is a unit of measurement and not of time, it
>>hardly seemed like a speed record."
>
> Actually, I was looking at the quote
>
> " Of course, the simplest solution is the one favored by George Lucas,
> and the one that appeared in the screenplay for A New Hope. Han's
> boast was nothing more than a lie, meant to hoodwink provincial
> customers. Obi-Wan's knowing glance suggests he saw right through
> Solo's meaningless bragging."
>
> If it's in the screenplay, then that would seem pretty conclusive
> that it's the effect Lucas was going for. You might not like
> the way it characterizes Solo or Kenobi, but it would seem to
> show that Lucas did indeed know what a parsec was.

Ah, sorry, I should've addressed that. There are versions of the
screenplay floating around on the Web that contain the phrase "Ben
reacts to Solo's stupid attempt to impress them with obvious
misinformation" after the parsecs line. But these same screenplays also
feature the subtitle "A New Hope," which Lucas only tacked onto the
movie in re-release, and I suspect the line about Ben's reaction was
tacked on at the same time (the parsec blunder was pointed out by
nitpicking sci-fi fans as soon as the movie was released). My suspicions
are augmented by the fact that in the novelization of the screenplay by
Alan Dean Foster (which was released before the movie, and credited to
Lucas himself), Han says "less than twelve standard timeparts" -- funny
that Foster read the screenplay and yet didn't realize Lucas was making
an intentional error.
--
Mark Steese
===========
The first signs of the death of the boom came in the summer,
early, and everything went like snow in the sun.
Out of their office windows. There was miasma,
a weight beyond enduring, the city reeked of failure.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #175796 ] Fr, 02 Dezember 2005 10:39
Mark Steese  
"SpammersDie" <xx [at] xx.xx> wrote in
news:PHNjf.206502$zb5.106782 [at] bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

>> In fact, if we
>> assume Ben knows what a parsec is, it's a little odd that he keeps
>> negotiating with Han, whom he is obliged to conclude is either a
>> lying sack of shit or a complete ignoramus.
>
> They didn't have a lot of time and the cantina isn't exactly full of
> honest, upright and yet desperate-for-a-job pilots to choose from.

They didn't know how much time they had, and Kenobi introduces Chewie as
"first mate on a ship that *might* suit our needs" -- it's hardly a done
deal. And before they go in the cantina, Ben tells Luke "Most of the best
freighter pilots can be found here." I mean, if it wasn't exactly full of
pilots to choose from, why would they have bothered to go there in the
first place?

> Besides, Obi-Wan probably figured that anyone Chewbacca would
> associate with is probably ok. After all, Chewie did help out his old
> associate Yoda when they had that little malfunction with the clones.

Away with thee, revisionist!
--
Mark Steese
===========
The first signs of the death of the boom came in the summer,
early, and everything went like snow in the sun.
Out of their office windows. There was miasma,
a weight beyond enduring, the city reeked of failure.
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #178148 ] Fr, 02 Dezember 2005 16:43
Peter Boulding  
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 23:03:53 -0500, Joe Shimkus <joe [at] shimkus.com> wrote in
<joe-5E730F.23035301122005 [at] individual.net>:

>Look at something on the other side of the room. Close one eye. Now
>open that eye and close the other. Notice how the object appears to
>shift position? That's it, except it's done with the earth on one side
>of the sun and then again 6 months later and is the distance from the
>sun where the object appears to move 1 second (1/60 degree).

OK, Joe and Joseph, I get the principle. I really *don't* want to think
about all the additional awkward variables (such as the failure of the Sun
and reference stars to maintain relative pace and direction as they rotate
around the galaxy).

--
Regards
Peter Boulding
pjb [at] UNSPAMpboulding.co.uk (to e-mail, remove "UNSPAM")
Fractal music & images: http://www.pboulding.co.uk/
Re: yet another star Wars question [message #178151 ] Fr, 02 Dezember 2005 19:02
ctbishop  
In article <alq0p15dj2cqt778hg3cq1utnjuahs7no0 [at] 4ax.com>, Peter Boulding
<pjb [at] UNSPAMpboulding.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 23:03:53 -0500, Joe Shimkus <joe [at] shimkus.com> wrote in
><joe-5E730F.23035301122005 [at] individual.net>:
>
>>Look at something on the other side of the room. Close one eye. Now
>>open that eye and close the other. Notice how the object appears to
>>shift position? That's it, except it's done with the earth on one side
>>of the sun and then again 6 months later and is the distance from the
>>sun where the object appears to move 1 second (1/60 degree).
>
>OK, Joe and Joseph, I get the principle. I really *don't* want to think
>about all the additional awkward variables (such as the failure of the Sun
>and reference stars to maintain relative pace and direction as they rotate
>around the galaxy).

If the motion of the sun and the ref. stars is over the 6 months it takes
the earth to go from here, to there to get the measurements, I assume that
it's a very small factor.

charles, heh, heh, I said 'assume'
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