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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #168339] So, 20 November 2005 21:30
Conrad Dunkerson  
Chris Kern wrote:

> A discussion then follows of the afterlife of Dwarves, who are supposed
> to rebuild Arda after the Last Battle (it is curious that CT left this
> reference to the Dagor Dagorath in the text when he excised the other
> ones.)

It is also referenced in Akallabeth where it is said that the
Numenoreans who sailed against Aman would take part in the last battle.

> Apparently there is some sort of reincarnation for the fathers of
> Dwarves, who "live again in their own kin" (although this passage was
> written before Tolkien rejected the Elves' rebirth in their children).

CT estimates the LQ1 digression into the creation of the Dwarves to the
later part of 1958 and Athrabeth (where Elven 'rebirth' was replaced
with 'rehousing') to 1959. I wonder if the Dwarves inheriting this
characteristic was part of what prompted Tolkien to change it for the
Elves... though he'd apparently struggled with the propriety of the
concept for some time.

> The section on Aule and the Dwarves does come from the QS, but from a
> later chapter called "Concerning the Dwarves" (the chapter numbers are
> nebulous but this chapter came after Of Beleriand and its Realms).
> This explains the rather abrupt beginning of the chapter -- originally
> this followed an account of the Dwarves' dealing with the Elves in
> Middle-Earth.

The text in Silm's 'Of the Sindar' about Dwarves was split out from the
same source passages.

> The section on Yavanna and the Ents comes from probably a
> significantly later time (CT guesses 1963, following a response to a
> letter from a reader), and is a text unrelated to the QS with the
> title "Anaxartamel Onyalie" (I don't know what this means).

It could have been as early as 1958, but he suspected later because it
contained information similar to the 1963 letter. The text was actually
titled in different drafts; 'Anaxartamel', 'Of the Ents and the Eagles',
and 'Anaxartaron Onyalie'. As to what those terms mean... it is a matter
of debate. The obvious answer would be that 'Anaxartaron Onyalie' means
'Of the Ents and the Eagles', but constructing a derivation for that is
difficult at best.

> However, the next sentence says "But
> the Dwarves have no spirit indwelling" which shows the myth is not yet
> in its final form. This passage was emended to read "And the Noldor
> believed that the Dwarves have no spirit indwelling..." (V, 146).

This is interesting. Once Tolkien decided to make 'The Hobbit'
officially part of LotR I think it would be impossible to maintain the
idea that Dwarves didn't have a 'spirit indwelling'. The Dwarves of 'The
Hobbit' were clearly every bit as much 'people' as any of the other
characters. Thus, I do think that 'The Hobbit' had an impact on the
nature of Dwarves within Middle-earth.

> There are also sketchy writings from this time about the female
> Dwarves, but they were not incorporated into JRRT's final text.

I think you are refering to the notes on page 207, but if so... those
are just referring back to the text on 203-206 where JRRT did indeed
incorporate info on female Dwarves into the narrative text.

> - It seems that none of the other Valar learned about the Dwarves
> until they awoke in M-E. I wonder what they thought about that?

Well, Aule told Yavanna and she told Manwe... so I'd assume that word
would have gotten around. If not then I'd expect there was some rather
confused counting; 'one... two...... three? I thought it was supposed to
be TWO.'

> - Why was the enmity between the Dwarves and the Elves so important to
> Tolkien? It seems to be introduced here by Iluvatar without any real
> explanation, although it goes back to the Book of Lost Tales.

Well, in addition to the long history you note it had also already been
published in 'The Hobbit'. Just as the more heroic deeds of the Dwarves
made their first appearance there and became 'official' I'd think that
the elf-dwarf hostility which appeared in The Hobbit (based on the
earlier texts) must also have been retained for continuity.
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #168345 ] Mo, 21 November 2005 02:20
Chris Kern  
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:30:21 GMT, Conrad Dunkerson
<conrad.dunkerson [at] worldnet.att.net> posted the following:

>Chris Kern wrote:

>> The section on Aule and the Dwarves does come from the QS, but from a
>> later chapter called "Concerning the Dwarves" (the chapter numbers are
>> nebulous but this chapter came after Of Beleriand and its Realms).
>> This explains the rather abrupt beginning of the chapter -- originally
>> this followed an account of the Dwarves' dealing with the Elves in
>> Middle-Earth.
>
>The text in Silm's 'Of the Sindar' about Dwarves was split out from the
>same source passages.

Ah, so that's where that stuff ended up.

> > However, the next sentence says "But
>> the Dwarves have no spirit indwelling" which shows the myth is not yet
>> in its final form. This passage was emended to read "And the Noldor
>> believed that the Dwarves have no spirit indwelling..." (V, 146).
>
>This is interesting. Once Tolkien decided to make 'The Hobbit'
>officially part of LotR I think it would be impossible to maintain the
>idea that Dwarves didn't have a 'spirit indwelling'. The Dwarves of 'The
>Hobbit' were clearly every bit as much 'people' as any of the other
>characters. Thus, I do think that 'The Hobbit' had an impact on the
>nature of Dwarves within Middle-earth.
>
>> There are also sketchy writings from this time about the female
>> Dwarves, but they were not incorporated into JRRT's final text.
>
>I think you are refering to the notes on page 207, but if so... those
>are just referring back to the text on 203-206 where JRRT did indeed
>incorporate info on female Dwarves into the narrative text.

No, I'm referring to the stuff on p 211 about which CT says "In the
final text, as printed in the _Silmarillion_, my father evidently
abandoned the question of the origin of the female Dwarves, finding it
intractable and the solutions unsatisfactory" (XI, 212).

>> - It seems that none of the other Valar learned about the Dwarves
>> until they awoke in M-E. I wonder what they thought about that?
>
>Well, Aule told Yavanna and she told Manwe

Yavanna did not tell Manwe -- CT writes "When Yavanna went to Manwe
(p. 45) 'she did not betray the counsel fo Aule': the meaning of this
is that Yavanna did not reveal anything to Manwe of the making of the
Dwarves; in the first part of the chapter (p. 43) 'fearing that the
other Valar might blame his work, he wrought in secret', and the
intervention of Iluvatar (who 'knew what was done') was directly to
Aule" (XI, 340).

-Chris
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #174835 ] So, 27 November 2005 19:42
Henriette  
Conrad Dunkerson schreef:

> Chris Kern wrote:
>
> > - Why was the enmity between the Dwarves and the Elves so important to
> > Tolkien? It seems to be introduced here by Iluvatar without any real
> > explanation, although it goes back to the Book of Lost Tales.

Still I would have been surprised if they got along flawless after
Il=FAvatar tells Aul=EB off saying:
"Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power
and thy authority?" foretelling "often strife shall arise between thine
and mine" and calling them "the children of my adoption" vs "the
children of my choice".
>
> Well, in addition to the long history you note it had also already been
> published in 'The Hobbit'. Just as the more heroic deeds of the Dwarves
> made their first appearance there and became 'official' I'd think that
> the elf-dwarf hostility which appeared in The Hobbit (based on the
> earlier texts) must also have been retained for continuity.

Long history, continuity, but IMO also because the enmity between
peoples and countries was and is a topic of ever-lasting interest.
While I type this I'm reminded of the story of how the German and
allied soldiers in North-Africa played a football match at Christmas in
no man's land, and of the IDFA, the International Documentary Festival
at the moment here which centers around the theme of the manipulative
Propaganda - documentary, of which I saw some interesting previews.

Henriette
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #174844 ] So, 27 November 2005 21:23
Christopher Kreuzer  
Henriette <heldenib [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> Conrad Dunkerson schreef:
>
>> Chris Kern wrote:
>>
>>> - Why was the enmity between the Dwarves and the Elves so important
>>> to Tolkien? It seems to be introduced here by Iluvatar without any
>>> real explanation, although it goes back to the Book of Lost Tales.
>
> Still I would have been surprised if they got along flawless after
> Ilúvatar tells Aulë off saying:
> "Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power
> and thy authority?" foretelling "often strife shall arise between
> thine and mine" and calling them "the children of my adoption" vs "the
> children of my choice".

It does seem strange. Do we read too much into the use of words like
"adoption" and "choice"? Tolkien was, after all, raised from the age of
12 by various foster families and in the care of Father Francis Morgan.

>> Well, in addition to the long history you note it had also already
>> been published in 'The Hobbit'. Just as the more heroic deeds of the
>> Dwarves made their first appearance there and became 'official' I'd
>> think that the elf-dwarf hostility which appeared in The Hobbit
>> (based on the earlier texts) must also have been retained for
>> continuity.
>
> Long history, continuity, but IMO also because the enmity between
> peoples and countries was and is a topic of ever-lasting interest.
> While I type this I'm reminded of the story of how the German and
> allied soldiers in North-Africa played a football match at Christmas
> in no man's land, and of the IDFA, the International Documentary
> Festival at the moment here which centers around the theme of the
> manipulative Propaganda - documentary, of which I saw some
> interesting previews.

There was also a recent documentary here in the UK about the story of
the Canadian soldier that was "crucified" in World War I by German
soldiers.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #177042 ] Di, 29 November 2005 22:12
Henriette  
Christopher Kreuzer schreef:

> Henriette <heldenib [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Still I would have been surprised if they got along flawless after
> > Il=FAvatar tells Aul=EB off saying:
> > "Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power
> > and thy authority?" foretelling "often strife shall arise between
> > thine and mine" and calling them "the children of my adoption" vs "the
> > children of my choice".
>
> It does seem strange. Do we read too much into the use of words like
> "adoption" and "choice"? Tolkien was, after all, raised from the age of
> 12 by various foster families and in the care of Father Francis Morgan.
>
I didn't even think of that. Interesting point!
> >
> > Long history, continuity, but IMO also because the enmity between
> > peoples and countries was and is a topic of ever-lasting interest.
> > While I type this I'm reminded of the story of how the German and
> > allied soldiers in North-Africa played a football match at Christmas
> > in no man's land, and of the IDFA, the International Documentary
> > Festival at the moment here which centers around the theme of the
> > manipulative Propaganda - documentary, of which I saw some
> > interesting previews.
>
> There was also a recent documentary here in the UK about the story of
> the Canadian soldier that was "crucified" in World War I by German
> soldiers.

Recently a headline in one of our papers read that in WWII there had
been an 'Abu Graibh-prison' for German prisoners of war in England. We
can all choose where we want to focus on.

Henriette
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184331 ] Di, 06 Dezember 2005 09:24
Christopher Kreuzer  
Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.dunkerson [at] worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Chris Kern wrote:
>
> > A discussion then follows of the afterlife of Dwarves, who are
> supposed > to rebuild Arda after the Last Battle (it is curious that
> CT left this > reference to the Dagor Dagorath in the text when he
> excised the other > ones.)
>
> It is also referenced in Akallabeth where it is said that the
> Numenoreans who sailed against Aman would take part in the last
> battle.

So the dwarves would also appear, with their cool masks? Or would they
just turn up afterwards and help rebuild everything?

<snip>

>> - It seems that none of the other Valar learned about the Dwarves
>> until they awoke in M-E. I wonder what they thought about that?
>
> Well, Aule told Yavanna and she told Manwe... so I'd assume that word
> would have gotten around. If not then I'd expect there was some rather
> confused counting; 'one... two...... three? I thought it was supposed
> to be TWO.'

"...fearing that the other Valar might blame his work, he [Aule] wrought
in secret: and he made first the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall
under the mountains in Middle-earth...."

"...when Aule laboured in the making of the Dwarves he kept this work
hidden from the other Valar..."

For some reason I had thought that Aule made the Fathers of the Dwarves
in Valinor. Now I see that he was not only doing this in secret, but in
far-off Middle-earth. This reminds me of Melkor's "creation" of orcs and
other fell creatures. How does this compare with Aule's creation of the
dwarves, and with Yavanna sending forth spirits to dwell among and in
the kelvar and olvar (animals and plants)?

The key difference seems to be that Aule offers his design to Illuvatar
for approval. Would Illuvatar have approached Melkor and had a "little
word with him", much as he did with Aule? And what would Melkor have
said?

"...[Yavanna] did not betray the counsel of Aule..."

Well, good for her! :-) But I agree that Manwe and the other Valar would
have been surprised when the dwarves awoke, and would have also realised
that Yavanna had been let into Aule's confidence. It might seem a little
thing, but not only would they have been surprised, but they might have
wondered what else had been done in secret. It is this sort of little
thing, here and there, little white lies, that can erode trust unless
the issues are addressed properly. Much like the lies and dissension
sowed later by Melkor.

I would guess that Aule (and Yavanna) probably at some point made a full
and frank confession to the other Valar, presenting them with a fait
accompli, but also seeking to repair any damage that might have been
done by hiding this from them.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #184337 ] Di, 06 Dezember 2005 23:08
Yuk Tang  
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:3Vblf.3449$iz3.2827 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
> Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.dunkerson [at] worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> "...[Yavanna] did not betray the counsel of Aule..."
>
> Well, good for her! :-) But I agree that Manwe and the other Valar
> would have been surprised when the dwarves awoke, and would have
> also realised that Yavanna had been let into Aule's confidence. It
> might seem a little thing, but not only would they have been
> surprised, but they might have wondered what else had been done in
> secret. It is this sort of little thing, here and there, little
> white lies, that can erode trust unless the issues are addressed
> properly. Much like the lies and dissension sowed later by Melkor.
>
> I would guess that Aule (and Yavanna) probably at some point made
> a full and frank confession to the other Valar, presenting them
> with a fait accompli, but also seeking to repair any damage that
> might have been done by hiding this from them.

The other Valar were also 'little pleased to learn what he had done'
when Ulmo anchored the great isle off Eldamar without delivering the
Teleri to Valinor. It seems that the Valar were forever off doing
their own things, although their general direction might have been
similar. Rather like a prehistoric version of the EU.

I wonder if Orome ever whinged about the exposure that johnny-come-
lately Tulkas was getting, with Varda and Yavanna arguing over their
share of the light material, and Aule wanting more influence in the
Ring of Doom because he constructed most of the Valar's dwellings.
Was the Ring an early version of the ECJ? No wonder Feanor was irked
at its poking its nose into other people's affairs.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #192130 ] Di, 27 Dezember 2005 20:52
danhenry  
On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:24:31 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>Well, good for her! :-) But I agree that Manwe and the other Valar would
>have been surprised when the dwarves awoke, and would have also realised
>that Yavanna had been let into Aule's confidence.

Wouldn't Manwe's spirit-birds which could see into the depths of the sea
and earth eventually spot the sleeping Fathers of the Dwarves? Only
Melkor's darkness seems able to keep stuff hidden from Manwe over the
long run.

Plus, Eru might have had a word with Manwe during a "vision".

OTOH, all the Valar managed to miss the Elves until Orome stumbled on
them while wandering, long after Melkor got to work scaring them and
picking off strays.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
Re: CotW Silm Ch 2 - Of Aule and Yavanna [message #192147 ] Mi, 28 Dezember 2005 13:05
Christopher Kreuzer  
R. Dan Henry <danhenry [at] inreach.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:24:31 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Well, good for her! :-) But I agree that Manwe and the other Valar
>> would have been surprised when the dwarves awoke, and would have
>> also realised that Yavanna had been let into Aule's confidence.
>
> Wouldn't Manwe's spirit-birds which could see into the depths of the
> sea and earth eventually spot the sleeping Fathers of the Dwarves?

It seems not. Could they really see under the sea and inside the earth?
[checks] Oh, yes, they could! Well, maybe they saw them but didn't
understand what they were seeing.

Spirit 3451's report on flight 2341: "Saw some mis-shapen lumps of rocks
today in a cavern beneath the Earth. Also saw Aule looking guilty, but
he bribed me with some fire-berries to keep quiet. Hmmm! Fire-berries!"

> Only Melkor's darkness seems able to keep stuff hidden from Manwe
> over the long run.
>
> Plus, Eru might have had a word with Manwe during a "vision".

VSD, day 53: "Heard annoying voice in head again today while in a
trance. Kept talking about adopted children, but I ignored it and
eventually it went away. Melkor threw another tantrum today, saying he
wanted to be King. I banished him to the outer lands. Spirit-eagles are
drunk. Someone's been feeding them fire-berries. Suspect Yavanna is up
to something."

> OTOH, all the Valar managed to miss the Elves until Orome stumbled on
> them while wandering, long after Melkor got to work scaring them and
> picking off strays.

Hmm. There is a lot of potential for humour in /The Silmarillion/. Did
someone mention an F-text a while ago?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Vorheriges Thema:FAO R Dan Henry
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