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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Fanar, Valar, and Elohim
| Fanar, Valar, and Elohim [message #168161] |
So, 13 November 2005 15:19 |
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I was recently reading a comment in 'A Reader's Companion to LotR'.
First, I have been wondering whether this been published in the USA yet?
I'd like to comment on a few things from this new book, but only if
enough people have managed to get a copy.
Anyway, the comment that I was reading was an annotation to the bit in
the chapter 'Many Meetings' about the word 'Fanuilos' (in the hymn sung
to Elbereth). I noticed that Hammond and Scull (authors of 'A Reader's
Companion') quote a passage from 'The Road Goes Ever On', about fanar
(the plural of fana):
"Owing to the close association of the High-Elves with the Valar, [the
word /fana/] was applied to the 'veils' or 'raiment' in which the Valar
presented themselves to physical eyes. [...] In these /fanar/ they later
presented themselves to the Elves, and appeared as persons of majestic
(but not gigantic) stature, vested in robes expressing their individual
natures and functions. The High-Elves said that these forms were always
in some degree radiant, as if suffused by a light from within. In
Quenya, /fana/ thus came to signify the radiant and majestic figure of
one of the great Valar."
This reminded me of the discussions earlier this year about the raiments
and forms of the Valar, and I also thought this might be relevant to the
current discussion about the Valaquenta.
One question I had, upon reading the passage above, was whether this is
very similar to what is said in the Osanwe-kenta essay, or whether this
passage gives new insight (well, not that new, as RGEO has been
available for many years) to the nature of the Valar? In particular, was
it always clear that the Valar were _radiant_ beings? I am convinced
that something means "Shining Ones" - but can't think of what I am
thinking of (Ainur = Holy Ones, and Maiar = The Beautiful).
Maybe I am thinking of the Elohim = Shining Ones, of the Hebraic
tradition, which are associated with the number seven, as are the Valar.
Christopher
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: Fanar, Valar, and Elohim [message #168164 ] |
So, 13 November 2005 17:24 |
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> thinking of (Ainur = Holy Ones, and Maiar = The Beautiful).
>
> Maybe I am thinking of the Elohim = Shining Ones, of the Hebraic
> tradition, which are associated with the number seven, as are the Valar.
Elohim would translate better as The Mighty Ones.
bob Kolker
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| Re: Fanar, Valar, and Elohim [message #168167 ] |
So, 13 November 2005 18:40 |
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> I was recently reading a comment in 'A Reader's Companion to LotR'.
> First, I have been wondering whether this been published in the USA yet?
No, I had to order my copy from England.
> One question I had, upon reading the passage above, was whether this is
> very similar to what is said in the Osanwe-kenta essay, or whether this
> passage gives new insight (well, not that new, as RGEO has been
> available for many years) to the nature of the Valar? In particular, was
> it always clear that the Valar were _radiant_ beings? I am convinced
> that something means "Shining Ones" - but can't think of what I am
> thinking of (Ainur = Holy Ones, and Maiar = The Beautiful).
The 'Elohim = Shining Ones' bit comes from Christian O'Brien and his
theory that an ancient race (which included Yahweh) created humanity and
then mated with them. It has been tied in with various racist theories,
cult beliefs, UFO stories, et cetera and thus the term 'Shining Ones' is
found in alot of different places.
Offhand I can't think of a Tolkien connection to the term - except where
various groups have attempted to co-opt Tolkien.
I don't think the 'radiant' nature of the Ainur is as clearly defined in
any other passage as it is in the one you quoted, but there are
sufficient references to light associated with them (and holiness in
general) that I'd suspect it was a long-standing intention.
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| Re: Fanar, Valar, and Elohim [message #168168 ] |
So, 13 November 2005 18:35 |
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Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>I am convinced that something means "Shining Ones" - but can't think
>of what I am thinking of (Ainur = Holy Ones, and Maiar = The
>Beautiful).
Perhaps you are thinking of 'Nimri' in The Drowning of Anadune.
-M-
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| Re: Fanar, Valar, and Elohim [message #168170 ] |
So, 13 November 2005 17:45 |
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:KXHdf.7022$Lw5.3298 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> In particular, was it always clear that the Valar were _radiant_
> beings? I am convinced that something means "Shining Ones"
> - but can't think of what I am thinking of (Ainur = Holy Ones,
> and Maiar = The Beautiful).
Etymonline (which offers etymologies for common English words) says that
the old IndoEuropean words for "day" and "god", in Latin "dies" and "deus",
have a common root meaning "bright". I think this very tidbit was posted on
the Tolkien NGs, though not by me. So in our own ancestor-language, from
the time when we believed in many gods, the word for "god" appears to have
indeed meant something like "shining one".
*Amer.
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| Re: Fanar, Valar, and Elohim [message #168180 ] |
So, 13 November 2005 21:20 |
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Matthew Woodcraft <mattheww [at] chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I am convinced that something means "Shining Ones" - but can't think
>> of what I am thinking of (Ainur = Holy Ones, and Maiar = The
>> Beautiful).
>
> Perhaps you are thinking of 'Nimri' in The Drowning of Anadune.
Unfortunately I haven't read 'The Drowning of Anadune'.
Does 'Nimri' mean 'Shining One' then?
And having read Conrad's post, I now think that I didn't read the term
"Shining Ones" in Tolkien's writings, but while following up something
to do with Tolkien and the number seven, stumbling across a website to
do with the Elohim, and coming to associate the two in my mind. Oh well.
Christopher
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: Fanar, Valar, and Elohim [message #168181 ] |
So, 13 November 2005 21:24 |
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Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.dunkerson [at] worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> I was recently reading a comment in 'A Reader's Companion to LotR'.
>> First, I have been wondering whether this been published in the USA
>> yet?
>
> No, I had to order my copy from England.
OK. I'll sit on my hands then and make copious notes, until we can all
read from the same page, so to speak!
>> One question I had, upon reading the passage above, was whether this
>> is very similar to what is said in the Osanwe-kenta essay, or
>> whether this passage gives new insight (well, not that new, as RGEO
>> has been available for many years) to the nature of the Valar? In
>> particular, was it always clear that the Valar were _radiant_
>> beings? I am convinced that something means "Shining Ones" - but
>> can't think of what I am thinking of (Ainur = Holy Ones, and Maiar =
>> The Beautiful).
>
> The 'Elohim = Shining Ones' bit comes from Christian O'Brien and his
> theory that an ancient race (which included Yahweh) created humanity
> and then mated with them. It has been tied in with various racist
> theories, cult beliefs, UFO stories, et cetera and thus the term
> 'Shining Ones' is found in alot of different places.
Like this page? :-)
http://www.thevesselofgod.com/giantsonearth.html
> Offhand I can't think of a Tolkien connection to the term - except
> where various groups have attempted to co-opt Tolkien.
>
>
> I don't think the 'radiant' nature of the Ainur is as clearly defined
> in any other passage as it is in the one you quoted, but there are
> sufficient references to light associated with them (and holiness in
> general) that I'd suspect it was a long-standing intention.
I do find it surprising that Tolkien wouldn't make it clearer than he
does. I half expect him to constantly talk about light associated with
the actual raiments of the Valar, but he doesn't seem to do this.
Christopher
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: Fanar, Valar, and Elohim [message #168182 ] |
So, 13 November 2005 22:03 |
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> OK. I'll sit on my hands then and make copious notes, until we can all
> read from the same page, so to speak!
Heh. I'm still going through it myself. Still, a bit of information
about the general contents can't hurt.
I have wanted to see Tolkien's unfinished LotR index and the full text
of the Waldman letter (including the 'synopsis' of LotR missing from
Letters) for a long time... hoping that they would answer some of the
great questions. Thus far I haven't found any new answers, but plenty
of interesting details. There IS one item of 'new evidence' on the
'Uruks = Uruk-hai' question, but it seems to be partially contradicted
by text later in the book.
The numerous 'Scheme' references to Tolkien's timetable of events and
alternate versions are also interesting. The 'Nomenclature' has been
published before, but the version given here provides more detail on
alterations and drafts.
The list of alterations to the LotR text seems almost like an 'update'
to similar info in Descriptive Bibliography. The book also contains
alot of new information on the maps and by far the most extensive
description of the history of LotR's writing and publication I have
seen... and then there are the other 691 pages, with the annotations on
the text.
I'll be going through this for a LONG time and I have already started
itching to write in my own notes on several issues (e.g. they left out
Bolg & Azog in their analysis of orcish longevity). I originally
ordered it in the boxed set with the revised LotR with the new index,
but Amazon UK kept delaying shipment of that so I just ordered a
standalone paperback. When it finally becomes available in the US I'll
get a hardcover copy and make my notes on that... it has ALOT of the
evidences to various things which we cite around here, but not all of
them... I can only imagine how long it would have been had they tried.
Oh... and about the notations on the Balrog wings passage, all I can say
is I hope Wayne and Christina are prepared for the meltdown which will
ensue when certain people see it. :]
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| Re: Fanar, Valar, and Elohim [message #168183 ] |
So, 13 November 2005 23:33 |
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Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Unfortunately I haven't read 'The Drowning of Anadune'.
>Does 'Nimri' mean 'Shining One' then?
'Shining Ones', yes. It seems to refer to both the Valar and the Elves.
-M-
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| Re: Fanar, Valar, and Elohim [message #168199 ] |
Mo, 14 November 2005 14:43 |
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Matthew Woodcraft wrote:
>
>
> 'Shining Ones', yes. It seems to refer to both the Valar and the Elves.
Do the Elves emit photons in the visible frequency range sponteneously?
Do quantum laws hold in Middle Earth?
Bob Kolker
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| Re: Fanar, Valar, and Elohim [message #168228 ] |
Di, 15 November 2005 02:39 |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 14:19:22 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>I was recently reading a comment in 'A Reader's Companion to LotR'.
>First, I have been wondering whether this been published in the USA yet?
>I'd like to comment on a few things from this new book, but only if
>enough people have managed to get a copy.
>
>Anyway, the comment that I was reading was an annotation to the bit in
>the chapter 'Many Meetings' about the word 'Fanuilos' (in the hymn sung
>to Elbereth). I noticed that Hammond and Scull (authors of 'A Reader's
>Companion') quote a passage from 'The Road Goes Ever On', about fanar
>(the plural of fana):
>
>"Owing to the close association of the High-Elves with the Valar, [the
>word /fana/] was applied to the 'veils' or 'raiment' in which the Valar
>presented themselves to physical eyes. [...] In these /fanar/ they later
>presented themselves to the Elves, and appeared as persons of majestic
>(but not gigantic) stature, vested in robes expressing their individual
>natures and functions. The High-Elves said that these forms were always
>in some degree radiant, as if suffused by a light from within. In
>Quenya, /fana/ thus came to signify the radiant and majestic figure of
>one of the great Valar."
>
>This reminded me of the discussions earlier this year about the raiments
>and forms of the Valar, and I also thought this might be relevant to the
>current discussion about the Valaquenta.
>
>One question I had, upon reading the passage above, was whether this is
>very similar to what is said in the Osanwe-kenta essay, or whether this
>passage gives new insight (well, not that new, as RGEO has been
>available for many years) to the nature of the Valar? In particular, was
>it always clear that the Valar were _radiant_ beings? I am convinced
>that something means "Shining Ones" - but can't think of what I am
>thinking of (Ainur = Holy Ones, and Maiar = The Beautiful).
>
>Maybe I am thinking of the Elohim = Shining Ones, of the Hebraic
>tradition, which are associated with the number seven, as are the Valar.
>
>Christopher
When I see "Elohim" in fantasy discussions, all I can think of is the
Elohim of the SRD Covenant novels. We learn, in the second trilogy,
that the Elohim are Earthpower incarnate, or the "center of the
Earth."
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