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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » cadmus and the hunt for europa
cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #161283] Mi, 02 November 2005 21:53
dominic4445  
I am doing a project for my high school latin class on cadmus and the
hunt for europa and i am having trouble finding out the connection
between europa and europe. does any1 havbe a clue. the story is
pretty vauge as far as the information that i've found anyway and i
would like to put as much information in there is possible, and i would
like to have permission from you to use the information posted within
my project.
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #161284 ] Mi, 02 November 2005 22:01
Christopher Kreuzer  
dominic4445 [at] gmail.com <dominic4445 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> I am doing a project for my high school latin class on cadmus and the
> hunt for europa and i am having trouble finding out the connection
> between europa and europe. does any1 havbe a clue. the story is
> pretty vauge as far as the information that i've found anyway and i
> would like to put as much information in there is possible, and i
> would like to have permission from you to use the information posted
> within my project.

Europa is a moon of Jupiter. Europe is a continent on Earth. The
connection (via Cadmus) is, of course, the chemical element cadmium,
discovered in Europe in 1817 by Stromeyer. There is also a chemical
element called Europium. Hope that helps.

BTW, if you find out the real answer, please tell us!
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #161300 ] Do, 03 November 2005 14:07
Derek Broughton  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> dominic4445 [at] gmail.com <dominic4445 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am doing a project for my high school latin class on cadmus and the
>> hunt for europa and i am having trouble finding out the connection
>> between europa and europe. does any1 havbe a clue. the story is
>> pretty vauge as far as the information that i've found anyway and i
>> would like to put as much information in there is possible, and i
>> would like to have permission from you to use the information posted
>> within my project.
>
> Europa is a moon of Jupiter. Europe is a continent on Earth. The
> connection (via Cadmus) is, of course, the chemical element cadmium,
> discovered in Europe in 1817 by Stromeyer. There is also a chemical
> element called Europium. Hope that helps.
>
> BTW, if you find out the real answer, please tell us!

Shame! Misleading children like that.

My Greek mythology is pretty rusty, but iirc, Europa was lured away by Zeus,
in the form of a white bull, from her home "elsewhere". The continent
where she was left when Zeus had had his fun was then named after her.

"The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony" (Calasso, Roberto. Knopf, 1993.) might
be of some use, if you can manage to wade through it. I never could work
out if it was bad fiction or a serious retelling of mythology, and I didn't
get far enough to figure out where Cadmus came into it, but it does start
with Europa.

As for permission, one doesn't actually need permission to cite sources in a
school project. That's covered under international copyright law as "fair
use". You should, however, provide proper citations.
--
derek
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #161301 ] Do, 03 November 2005 14:10
Derek Broughton  
dominic4445 [at] gmail.com wrote:

> I am doing a project for my high school latin class on cadmus and the
> hunt for europa and i am having trouble finding out the connection
> between europa and europe. does any1 havbe a clue. the story is
> pretty vauge as far as the information that i've found anyway and i
> would like to put as much information in there is possible, and i would
> like to have permission from you to use the information posted within
> my project.

Another title, available with a simple search on a half-decent online
library catalog:

"The serpent's teeth; the story of Cadmus." Farmer, Penelope. Collins,
1971.

It's admirable that people are still taking Latin in high school, but don't
let that interfere with learning how to use the Internet :-)
--
derek
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #161308 ] Do, 03 November 2005 21:21
Christopher Kreuzer  
Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

<snip>

>> BTW, if you find out the real answer, please tell us!
>
> Shame! Misleading children like that.

Well, I still don't know why cadmium is called cadmium.

[something to do with the Latin name for calamine, an ore of zinc in
which cadmium was discovered - so there's something to be learnt about
Latin there]

Though I do now know that there is a phrase "Cadmean victory":

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Cadmean+victory

"1603, from Gk. Kadmeia nike "victory involving one's own ruin" [Liddell
& Scott], from Cadmus (Gk. Kadmos), legendary founder of Thebes in
Boeotia and bringer of the alphabet to Greece. "

Maybe that brings us back to the story of Cadmus and Europa?
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #161316 ] Fr, 04 November 2005 03:48
donnellaf  
Derek Broughton wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
>
>>dominic4445 [at] gmail.com <dominic4445 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I am doing a project for my high school latin class on cadmus and the
>>>hunt for europa and i am having trouble finding out the connection
>>>between europa and europe. does any1 havbe a clue. the story is
>>>pretty vauge as far as the information that i've found anyway and i
>>>would like to put as much information in there is possible, and i
>>>would like to have permission from you to use the information posted
>>>within my project.
>>
>>Europa is a moon of Jupiter. Europe is a continent on Earth. The
>>connection (via Cadmus) is, of course, the chemical element cadmium,
>>discovered in Europe in 1817 by Stromeyer. There is also a chemical
>>element called Europium. Hope that helps.
>>
>>BTW, if you find out the real answer, please tell us!
>
>
> Shame! Misleading children like that.

I wonder what led the original poster to ask this question of a Tolkien
newsgroup? It worked, since someone knew the answer, but I think his
needs would have been better met by some miscellaneous classics
newsgroup (or by actually reading something, as I imagine whatever
guidelines were set out for his project included some means of acquiring
the needed information).

<Snip>

> As for permission, one doesn't actually need permission to cite sources in a
> school project. That's covered under international copyright law as "fair
> use". You should, however, provide proper citations.

Along those lines, what kind of teacher would accept "Tolkien nerd,
personal communication" as a proper reference? Generally, though, what
kind of standards do they have in schools regarding internet references?
I'm thinking of things like Wikipedia. If I were teaching, that
certainly wouldn't fly in my classroom (besides the reasons listed in
the Wikipedia thread, the ease with which one might change the entries
presents the possibility for abuse by students), but I wonder what most
teachers do? Do they give up and say "at least they're actually doing
their homework" and not care too much about what type of literature is
informing their answers?


Andy
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #161317 ] Fr, 04 November 2005 03:50
donnellaf  
Derek Broughton wrote:

> My Greek mythology is pretty rusty, but iirc, Europa was lured away by Zeus,
> in the form of a white bull, from her home "elsewhere". The continent
> where she was left when Zeus had had his fun was then named after her.

I like Christopher's answer better. Maybe I'll go update Wikipedia with
it. :-)


Andy
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #161318 ] Fr, 04 November 2005 04:09
Graham Lockwood  
On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:48:38 -0600, Andrew F. Donnell wrote
{snip}
> I wonder what led the original poster to ask this question of a Tolkien
> newsgroup? It worked, since someone knew the answer, but I think his
> needs would have been better met by some miscellaneous classics
> newsgroup (or by actually reading something, as I imagine whatever
> guidelines were set out for his project included some means of acquiring
> the needed information).
{snip}

Maybe such a group would have told him to "RTFB"? ;-)

> Along those lines, what kind of teacher would accept "Tolkien nerd,
> personal communication" as a proper reference? Generally, though, what
> kind of standards do they have in schools regarding internet references?
> I'm thinking of things like Wikipedia. If I were teaching, that
> certainly wouldn't fly in my classroom (besides the reasons listed in
> the Wikipedia thread, the ease with which one might change the entries
> presents the possibility for abuse by students), but I wonder what most
> teachers do? Do they give up and say "at least they're actually doing
> their homework" and not care too much about what type of literature is
> informing their answers?

I've had English classes where they gave os one of those pages (or books)
that show how to properly cite pretty much any source you can possibly
imagine. And they do have ways to cite web pages (USENET too). How much worth
a student or teacher is willing to put on such references is another question
altogether of course.


---
Graham
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #161319 ] Fr, 04 November 2005 04:46
donnellaf  
Graham Lockwood wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:48:38 -0600, Andrew F. Donnell wrote
> {snip}
>
>>I wonder what led the original poster to ask this question of a Tolkien
>>newsgroup? It worked, since someone knew the answer, but I think his
>>needs would have been better met by some miscellaneous classics
>>newsgroup (or by actually reading something, as I imagine whatever
>>guidelines were set out for his project included some means of acquiring
>>the needed information).
>
> {snip}
>
> Maybe such a group would have told him to "RTFB"? ;-)

So do we have a reputation for being easy or something?

>>Along those lines, what kind of teacher would accept "Tolkien nerd,
>>personal communication" as a proper reference? Generally, though, what
>>kind of standards do they have in schools regarding internet references?
>> I'm thinking of things like Wikipedia. If I were teaching, that
>>certainly wouldn't fly in my classroom (besides the reasons listed in
>>the Wikipedia thread, the ease with which one might change the entries
>>presents the possibility for abuse by students), but I wonder what most
>>teachers do? Do they give up and say "at least they're actually doing
>>their homework" and not care too much about what type of literature is
>>informing their answers?
>
>
> I've had English classes where they gave os one of those pages (or books)
> that show how to properly cite pretty much any source you can possibly
> imagine. And they do have ways to cite web pages (USENET too). How much worth
> a student or teacher is willing to put on such references is another question
> altogether of course.

I agree that it is important to have protocol for citing these sources,
but I doubt that they are actually useful for high school (or even
college) research papers. These papers are not really "research" but
are generally summarizing well-known and documented results of other
people's research.

Andy
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #161321 ] Fr, 04 November 2005 14:05
Derek Broughton  
Andrew F. Donnell wrote:

>> As for permission, one doesn't actually need permission to cite sources
>> in a
>> school project. That's covered under international copyright law as
>> "fair
>> use". You should, however, provide proper citations.
>
> Along those lines, what kind of teacher would accept "Tolkien nerd,
> personal communication" as a proper reference?'

I actually used a citation from rec.games.frp.dnd in an English course a
couple of years ago :-) Sometimes, it's not so much what you're citing as
that you're doing it correctly that gets you the marks.

> Generally, though, what
> kind of standards do they have in schools regarding internet references?

Believe it or not, standard MLA & APA formats have both been revised for the
Internet. You give a URL, and the actual date of the post for a news
posting or the date you browsed (and the date of publication, if known) for
a web page.

> I'm thinking of things like Wikipedia. If I were teaching, that
> certainly wouldn't fly in my classroom (besides the reasons listed in
> the Wikipedia thread, the ease with which one might change the entries
> presents the possibility for abuse by students), but I wonder what most
> teachers do? Do they give up and say "at least they're actually doing
> their homework" and not care too much about what type of literature is
> informing their answers?

Often, I'm sure that's exactly what they do. The good teachers, though,
should be willing to accept a Wikipedia reference if it's obvious that the
student's done the research properly. Wikipedia is obviously not a primary
reference, but if you've done the research and the Wikipedia entry is a
good summary of what you've learned, it's probably worth citing it. otoh,
if all wikipedia did was lead you to sources that explained something
better and more reliably, citing wikipedia should probably only be seen as
padding your citations.
--
derek
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #163125 ] Sa, 05 November 2005 18:08
donnellaf  
Derek Broughton wrote:
> Andrew F. Donnell wrote:
>
>
>>>As for permission, one doesn't actually need permission to cite sources
>>>in a
>>>school project. That's covered under international copyright law as
>>>"fair
>>>use". You should, however, provide proper citations.
>>
>>Along those lines, what kind of teacher would accept "Tolkien nerd,
>>personal communication" as a proper reference?'
>
>
> I actually used a citation from rec.games.frp.dnd in an English course a
> couple of years ago :-)

Impressive, most impressive. Was the paper about D&D, in which case
citing such a source might be appropriate? If not, and if I were a
teacher, that sort of thing probably wouldn't fly. But I'm glad I don't
teach, especially in a more subjective field such as English. And
students are probably glad I don't teach, since many of them didn't like
my teaching philosophy when I taught in grad school (for example, when
somebody gives an answer that is *wrong*, no matter how much effort
they've been putting into the class, it is *wrong* and is marked as
such; and I think that it is better to have low averages on quizzes and
exams, since you get more stratification and it displays more clearly
*who* actually knows the material, as opposed to when averages are 90%,
or some ridiculously high number, and most of the class ends up with
basically the same scores). But I digress....


Andy
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #163126 ] Sa, 05 November 2005 20:43
Derek Broughton  
Andrew F. Donnell wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> Andrew F. Donnell wrote:
>>
>>>>As for permission, one doesn't actually need permission to cite sources
>>>>in a
>>>>school project. That's covered under international copyright law as
>>>>"fair
>>>>use". You should, however, provide proper citations.
>>>
>>>Along those lines, what kind of teacher would accept "Tolkien nerd,
>>>personal communication" as a proper reference?'
>>
>> I actually used a citation from rec.games.frp.dnd in an English course a
>> couple of years ago :-)
>
> Impressive, most impressive. Was the paper about D&D, in which case
> citing such a source might be appropriate? If not, and if I were a
> teacher, that sort of thing probably wouldn't fly.

No it wasn't, but the citation was appropriate. It was the basic English
Literacy course required in every Canadian university these days (my first
time through U. 30 years ago, was before such things were required, so I
had to take it this time). It was an essay on a subject of my choice, and
a couple of guys were having an argument that was relevant - who was right
wasn't of consequence, just that people argued over such things.
--
derek
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #163129 ] So, 06 November 2005 01:34
Jette Goldie  
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 21:01:19 -0000, Christopher Kreuzer
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> dominic4445 [at] gmail.com <dominic4445 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am doing a project for my high school latin class on cadmus and the
>> hunt for europa and i am having trouble finding out the connection
>> between europa and europe. does any1 havbe a clue. the story is
>> pretty vauge as far as the information that i've found anyway and i
>> would like to put as much information in there is possible, and i
>> would like to have permission from you to use the information posted
>> within my project.
>
> Europa is a moon of Jupiter. Europe is a continent on Earth. The
> connection (via Cadmus) is, of course, the chemical element cadmium,
> discovered in Europe in 1817 by Stromeyer. There is also a chemical
> element called Europium. Hope that helps.
>
> BTW, if you find out the real answer, please tell us!
>

Europa was a nymph seduced by Jupiter (roman deity). This is why the moon
of Jupiter (the planet) is named after her.

--
Jette Goldie
jette.goldie [at] gmail.com
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/wolfette/
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #164861 ] Di, 08 November 2005 16:21
sbjensen  
Quoth "Andrew F. Donnell" <donnellaf [at] gmail.com> in article
<BMOdnS7xZpqYUffeRVn-hg [at] comcast.com>:
> Along those lines, what kind of teacher would accept "Tolkien nerd,
> personal communication" as a proper reference? Generally, though,
> what kind of standards do they have in schools regarding internet
> references?

Well, I've been cited in a colleague's scientific paper as a "private
communication" (because I proved a little theorem for him): such
things aren't unknown in actual research. And my online tutorial
about the method of "Lagrange multipliers" in multivariable calculus
has apparently been cited by at least one paper (though why they
didn't use a textbook or something, I don't know). For that matter,
my Tolkien FAQ has been cited in a paper discussing racism in
Tolkien's works. And on an entirely different note, some tenured
professors in my field don't actually publish their research anywhere
except a popular online preprint server, so in some sense those papers
(some of them quite important!) are purely "internet resources".

I don't know that any of that is inappropriate (though I'll admit that
it's all somewhat weird).
Steuard Jensen
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #164863 ] Di, 08 November 2005 17:12
Graham Lockwood  
On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:21:03 -0600, Steuard Jensen wrote
(in article <zn3cf.14$45.1311 [at] news.uchicago.edu>):

> Quoth "Andrew F. Donnell" <donnellaf [at] gmail.com> in article
> <BMOdnS7xZpqYUffeRVn-hg [at] comcast.com>:
>> Along those lines, what kind of teacher would accept "Tolkien nerd,
>> personal communication" as a proper reference? Generally, though,
>> what kind of standards do they have in schools regarding internet
>> references?
>
> Well, I've been cited in a colleague's scientific paper as a "private
> communication" (because I proved a little theorem for him): such
> things aren't unknown in actual research. And my online tutorial
> about the method of "Lagrange multipliers" in multivariable calculus
> has apparently been cited by at least one paper (though why they
> didn't use a textbook or something, I don't know). For that matter,
> my Tolkien FAQ has been cited in a paper discussing racism in
> Tolkien's works. And on an entirely different note, some tenured
> professors in my field don't actually publish their research anywhere
> except a popular online preprint server, so in some sense those papers
> (some of them quite important!) are purely "internet resources".
>
> I don't know that any of that is inappropriate (though I'll admit that
> it's all somewhat weird).

Also, articles from "reputable" print journals are often reproduced online
(either on the journal's website or by a third-party who does it for them).
Someone may not have access to the actual print-copy but may be able to find
it on the web.



---
Graham
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #164888 ] Mi, 09 November 2005 03:32
donnellaf  
Steuard Jensen wrote:
> Quoth "Andrew F. Donnell" <donnellaf [at] gmail.com> in article
> <BMOdnS7xZpqYUffeRVn-hg [at] comcast.com>:
>
>>Along those lines, what kind of teacher would accept "Tolkien nerd,
>>personal communication" as a proper reference? Generally, though,
>>what kind of standards do they have in schools regarding internet
>>references?
>
>
> Well, I've been cited in a colleague's scientific paper as a "private
> communication" (because I proved a little theorem for him): such
> things aren't unknown in actual research.

In actual research, of course, I agree with you completely. For a high
school project, where the original poster is asking a question that
sounds like it is answered in whatever classical text he should have
read for the project, it would be completely inappropriate to cite
anything except that classical text. I don't know that literature, so I
may be wrong about it being such a trivial question, but I still
wouldn't accept a citation from a Tolkien newsgroup as a proper source
for the face-value interpretation of what sounds like a straight-forward
myth. It would be like writing a high school term paper about
Einstein's Special Relativity and citing a private communication with
your local biology teacher as the source for the equation E=mc2, instead
of Einstein's actual paper.

I'm certainly not saying that there is no place for private
communications or internet resources (I suppose my post was a little
muddy about what I was actually talking about). I am saying that all
sources must be used properly, and, if I were teaching high school, I
wouldn't want my students to ask other people to do their work for them,
whether or not they properly cite those people.

> And my online tutorial
> about the method of "Lagrange multipliers" in multivariable calculus
> has apparently been cited by at least one paper (though why they
> didn't use a textbook or something, I don't know). For that matter,
> my Tolkien FAQ has been cited in a paper discussing racism in
> Tolkien's works. And on an entirely different note, some tenured
> professors in my field don't actually publish their research anywhere
> except a popular online preprint server, so in some sense those papers
> (some of them quite important!) are purely "internet resources".

Those all sound like perfectly valid uses of internet sources, since
they represent original research, or at least a didactically useful
original presentation of a body of research, and are cited as such.

I think I had to use a Lagrange multiplier once, years ago. I shudder
at the recollection... :-)


Andy
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #164889 ] Mi, 09 November 2005 03:44
donnellaf  
Graham Lockwood wrote:

> Also, articles from "reputable" print journals are often reproduced online
> (either on the journal's website or by a third-party who does it for them).
> Someone may not have access to the actual print-copy but may be able to find
> it on the web.

I often find that if a journal article *isn't* online, or we don't have
a license for the online version, I talk myself out of wanting to read
it. It's just so much faster to point and click than it is to muddle
around in the library.

Well, unless it's something that's clearly going to be relevant instead
of the typical, "Hmm, this might be interesting; if it's online I'll
read it."

In fact, a lot of places are going so far as to get rid of their print
libraries, or they are consolidating them from many different sites into
one, so if somebody wants an article or book they have to send off to
have somebody scan it and email it to them.



Andy
Re: cadmus and the hunt for europa [message #168317 ] Sa, 19 November 2005 16:49
dominic4445  
i'll attempt 2 post my essay on my web page and give u all the url as
soon as possible so u can get the real story. as for the sources
argument, my teacher never said i couldn't use forums for this
projects, he gave us the mla format bibliography guidline 2 use and i
figured that i could use that. i dunno though, the paper is already
writen and i used no forum advice. now i have 2 write a children's
book that i'll read 2 an elementry school in the district but i'm
having trouble finding art that would b useable b/c, since itz a
children's book, the art can't have nudity and itz hard 2 find art from
this time period that doesn't
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