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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Apology for OTishness
Apology for OTishness [message #154414] So, 23 Oktober 2005 23:35
sbjensen  
I sat down at the computer and looked at r.a.b.t today, and I came to
two realizations. First, to my dismay I've got way too much "real
work" to do to be able to spend any substantial time here for the next
month or two. (I may try to say a word or two in the Silm. CotW
discussions, but even that seems a bit dangerous.) We'll see how
things look after that.

And second, I seem to have been one significant influence in throwing
r.a.b.t off topic in the past few days. As I've said here for years,
the evolution/creationism "debate" is a pet issue of mine, and it's
easy for me to fall into the trap of discussing it at great length.
Anything that looks like "science outreach" is also very tempting to
me (perhaps in part because it feels marginally more like real
work). :) My efforts to include some level of Tolkien-related content
in my posts have been inconsistent (both in frequency and in success).

So I apologize to the groups for encouraging a massive off-topic
discussion rather than discouraging it. Interesting though these
things may be, they aren't appropriate for r.a.b.t (and probably not
for a.f.t, either, but we're all a bit less picky there). I hope that
as those threads continue, they can be pulled back *much*, *much*
closer to Tolkien (or, failing that, at least moved over to a.f.t
where they're less discouraged).

Best wishes on that. :) I'll be off trying to puzzle out the AdS/CFT
correspondence. And membranes in M-theory. And maybe more about
worldsheet instantons and various monopoles and dyons. :)

[No, I won't explain what all of that means: it would be way off
topic. :) But if you're curious (and you haven't already seen it), a
somewhat low-level explanation of the last one can be found on my
website at

http://www.slimy.com/~steuard/research/KKmonLoc/

That page also includes links to my recently-published paper, which
will make zero sense to pretty much everyone. :) ]

Steuard Jensen
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #154419 ] So, 23 Oktober 2005 23:44
Taemon  
Steuard Jensen wrote:

> And second, I seem to have been one significant influence in
> throwing
> r.a.b.t off topic in the past few days. As I've said here for
> years,
> the evolution/creationism "debate" is a pet issue of mine, and it's
> easy for me to fall into the trap of discussing it at great length.

This is mainly my fault, since I not only started it, but also fueled
it. In my defence, I can say that I write in AFT only, and the fact
that these things get crossposted to RABT is not my responsibility :-)
Still, I would apologise, if it felt any way truthfully. It doesn't.
Then again, "off topic" has never meant anything to me. If people want
to discuss these things, let them. I realise I'm a minority in this -
so I sort of apologise to the good people in RABT, who have to put on
with this because of me. I didn't mean any inconvenience.

T.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #154432 ] Mo, 24 Oktober 2005 02:50
Stan Brown  
Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:35:53 GMT from Steuard Jensen
<sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu>:
> So I apologize to the groups for encouraging a massive off-topic
> discussion rather than discouraging it. Interesting though these
> things may be, they aren't appropriate for r.a.b.t

You're 100% right, Steuard. I had already reached a decision not to
respond publicly to the religion threads any more, but I felt the
others were less destructive because less threatening to some. I'll
think twice about responding to any of the current OT threads after
this, though.

I hope you know how much you are valued as our group's "conscience:.
:-)

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #154440 ] Mo, 24 Oktober 2005 05:37
donnellaf  
Steuard Jensen wrote:

<Snip>

> So I apologize to the groups for encouraging a massive off-topic
> discussion rather than discouraging it. Interesting though these
> things may be, they aren't appropriate for r.a.b.t (and probably not
> for a.f.t, either, but we're all a bit less picky there). I hope that
> as those threads continue, they can be pulled back *much*, *much*
> closer to Tolkien (or, failing that, at least moved over to a.f.t
> where they're less discouraged).

I tend not to see much of a problem in off-topic discussions, as long
they are conducted in a civilized, non-flaming manner (and I think these
have generally been well-behaved). If people are not interested in
them, they can just ignore the thread (and some of the more tangential
ones recently have been properly labeled).

But I don't really live here, so my word probably doesn't count for much
in the grand scheme of things (and I was one who once hung around with
that rascally crowd of dragons and other ne'er-do-wells whose
off-topicness got them kicked out of here with the creation of teunc).

So I'll go along with the crowd, if we want to refocus the topicity....

Andy
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #154441 ] Mo, 24 Oktober 2005 05:50
Graham Lockwood  
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:37:55 -0500, Andrew F. Donnell wrote
{snip}
> But I don't really live here, so my word probably doesn't count for much
> in the grand scheme of things (and I was one who once hung around with
> that rascally crowd of dragons and other ne'er-do-wells whose
> off-topicness got them kicked out of here with the creation of teunc).
{snip}

Curséd be their names!



---
Graham
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #154449 ] Mo, 24 Oktober 2005 18:21
sbjensen  
Quoth "Andrew F. Donnell" <donnellaf [at] gmail.com> in article
<i8OdncuZXc-PysHenZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d [at] comcast.com>:
> But I don't really live here, so my word probably doesn't count for
> much in the grand scheme of things

Humbug. :) You're here now, right?

> (and I was one who once hung around with that rascally crowd of
> dragons and other ne'er-do-wells whose off-topicness got them kicked
> out of here with the creation of teunc).

To the extent that the TEUNC crowd really was pushed to leave, I feel
quite sorry (on my own part and on behalf of the groups as a whole).
In fact, a substantial fraction of my grumblings about off-topic posts
at that time were (as I later realized) the result of a bizarre
mis-configuration of my university's news server: all of the articles
sent to a.f.t were silently placed in r.a.b.t instead!

I know that I posted an apology for any ill-will that I had
contributed to once I figured it out, but as the TEUNC folks had
mostly already left, I don't know how many of them ever saw it. Ah
well.

> So I'll go along with the crowd, if we want to refocus the topicity....

My suggestions are mainly to at least think twice before posting off
topic, and to try to limit the group to a.f.t rather than r.a.b.t if
you do. That way, r.a.b.t can remain a "safe" place for those who
just plain want to talk about Tolkien and Middle-earth, without the
mess and stress of real life politics butting in unnecessarily. :)

(Mind you, if the creationism thread hadn't diverged from its original
"what were Tolkien's thoughts about natural history" topic, that would
have been fine in either group! These are fine lines, I'll admit.)

Steuard Jensen
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #154458 ] Mo, 24 Oktober 2005 19:08
Henriette  
Steuard Jensen schreef:

> I sat down at the computer and looked at r.a.b.t today, and I came to
> two realizations. First, to my dismay I've got way too much "real
> work" to do to be able to spend any substantial time here for the next
> month or two. (I may try to say a word or two in the Silm. CotW
> discussions, but even that seems a bit dangerous.) We'll see how
> things look after that. (snip)

The years go by while I'm waiting for another wonderful song which I
can actually listen to like:

"I am Feanor's boy, and my story's dark and cold,
I have squandered my resistance,
For a pocket full of marbles such are Silmarils" (snip)

from the e-text. I understand that the next month or two I don't even
have to
be on the look out!

Henriette
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #154464 ] Mo, 24 Oktober 2005 19:18
Stan Brown  
Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:21:55 GMT from Steuard Jensen
<sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu>:
> To the extent that the TEUNC crowd really was pushed to leave, I feel
> quite sorry (on my own part and on behalf of the groups as a whole).

In your own word, humbug!

To ask people to conform to the group charter is not the same thing
as "pushing them to leave". There was nothing at all stopping them
from participating here, as indeed some still do.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #156949 ] Di, 25 Oktober 2005 00:35
sbjensen  
Quoth "Henriette" <heldenib [at] hotmail.com> in article
<1130173707.669827.64470 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>:
> Steuard Jensen schreef:
> > I sat down at the computer and looked at r.a.b.t today, and I came to
> > two realizations. First, to my dismay I've got way too much "real
> > work" to do to be able to spend any substantial time here for the next
> > month or two.

> The years go by while I'm waiting for another wonderful song which I
> can actually listen to like:
>
> "I am Feanor's boy, and my story's dark and cold,
[snip]

Thanks! :) I still have very fond memories of writing and recording
that parody. And my wife still reacts almost violently if I even joke
about playing it where she can hear it! (As you may recall, I even
included a reference to her thorough annoyance in the text of the
chapter itself.)

For those who don't know (or don't recall) what Henriette is talking
about, you can take a look at this excerpt:

http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html

Steuard Jensen
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #156953 ] Di, 25 Oktober 2005 03:30
donnellaf  
Steuard Jensen wrote:
> Quoth "Andrew F. Donnell" <donnellaf [at] gmail.com> in article
> <i8OdncuZXc-PysHenZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d [at] comcast.com>:

>>(and I was one who once hung around with that rascally crowd of
>>dragons and other ne'er-do-wells whose off-topicness got them kicked
>>out of here with the creation of teunc).
>
>
> To the extent that the TEUNC crowd really was pushed to leave, I feel
> quite sorry (on my own part and on behalf of the groups as a whole).

I certainly wasn't trying to lay any blame on anyone, or to sound at all
bitter.

>>So I'll go along with the crowd, if we want to refocus the topicity....

(I said that, then just a minute ago I made a lengthy post about the
modern state of the quest for the historical Jesus, which had nothing to
do with Tolkien. Oh well, I'll try to do better in the future...)

> (Mind you, if the creationism thread hadn't diverged from its original
> "what were Tolkien's thoughts about natural history" topic, that would
> have been fine in either group! These are fine lines, I'll admit.)

Of course, uhm, by now better understanding some of the nuances of that
debate, we'll, er, be able to understand Tolkien better now.... Yeah,
something like that....


Andy
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #156957 ] Di, 25 Oktober 2005 07:01
pseudonimofaqhater  
Steuard Jensen wrote:

> To the extent that the TEUNC crowd really was pushed to leave, I feel
> quite sorry (on my own part and on behalf of the groups as a whole).

I am sorry, too. Would that those myrmida of evil had been destroyed!
But at least they no longer can suppress the *truth* about cigars in
Middle-earth.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #156967 ] Di, 25 Oktober 2005 11:36
Tamf Moo  
Graham Lockwood spoke softly, shivering:

> > that rascally crowd of dragons and other ne'er-do-wells whose
> > off-topicness got them kicked out of here with the creation of teunc).

> Curséd be their names!

and trasked with a thousand trasks.

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

When all is said and done, too many people keep on saying and doing.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #156968 ] Di, 25 Oktober 2005 11:36
Tamf Moo  
pseudonimofaqhater [at] yahoo.com.br spoke softly, shivering:

> But at least they no longer can suppress the *truth* about cigars in
> Middle-earth.

there were no such things as cigars in muddle earth, and you know it!
that "cigar" was a clone... or a space ship... or something like that.

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

When all is said and done, too many people keep on saying and doing.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #156969 ] Di, 25 Oktober 2005 11:36
Tamf Moo  
[follow-up set to aft]

Steuard Jensen spoke softly, shivering:

> I know that I posted an apology for any ill-will that I had
> contributed to once I figured it out, but as the TEUNC folks had
> mostly already left, I don't know how many of them ever saw it. Ah
> well.

i don't think there's any ill will from anyone in teunc, to the extent
that they're aware of aft. in a way you could say it saved the group and
made it something more, instead of it just fizzling out or becoming
absorbed into the black hole of big bang and harry potter discussions
that is aft.rabt.

> My suggestions are mainly to at least think twice before posting off
> topic, and to try to limit the group to a.f.t rather than r.a.b.t if
> you do. That way, r.a.b.t can remain a "safe" place for those who
> just plain want to talk about Tolkien and Middle-earth, without the
> mess and stress of real life politics butting in unnecessarily. :)

i totally agree; it's a good distinction, and a justification for having
two groups. myself, i tend to remove rabt cross posts (for extreme
silliness) and set follow-ups to aft only for the slightly off-topic
posts. i encourage everyone to do the same. and eat your greens!

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

When all is said and done, too many people keep on saying and doing.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #156996 ] Di, 25 Oktober 2005 20:44
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:Lkd7f.14$S4.1519 [at] news.uchicago.edu>
sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) enriched us with:
>
> Quoth "Henriette" <heldenib [at] hotmail.com> in article
> <1130173707.669827.64470 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>:
>>

<snip>

>> "I am Feanor's boy, and my story's dark and cold,

<re-arrange>

> For those who don't know (or don't recall) what Henriette is
> talking about, you can take a look at this excerpt:
>
> http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html

Wonderful, thanks!

"We marched in there
Killing men and helpless children 'cause their lord was
so unfair.
Die-die die-die die, die die die die..."

LOL!

(drawing that odd look from the wife again, "oh, he's just reading
usenet again" and a shake of her head)

> Thanks! :) I still have very fond memories of writing and
> recording that parody.

I can well imagine ;-)

> And my wife still reacts almost violently if I even joke about
> playing it where she can hear it!

With or without a smile?

The sound-quality isn't all that good, but the singing and playing
doesn't seem all that bad (though, of course, if it took any number of
rehearsals and recordings to get to this point, then I might sympathise
a bit with her <G>).

Possibly a case of 'too much of a good thing' ... ?

> (As you may recall, I even included a reference to her thorough
> annoyance in the text of the chapter itself.)

Put into the mouth of Spiegel, no less ...

I have often been wistful that I was not 'here' when the e-text was
made, but rarely as much as now.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Taking fun
as simply fun
and earnestness
in earnest
shows how thouroughly
thou none
of the two
discernest.
- Piet Hein, /The Eternal Twins/
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157001 ] Di, 25 Oktober 2005 21:50
Taemon  
Steuard Jensen wrote:

> For those who don't know (or don't recall) what Henriette is talking
> about, you can take a look at this excerpt:
>
> http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html

ROFL! I didn't know that one! Is that you singing?

T.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157002 ] Di, 25 Oktober 2005 21:51
Taemon  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> I have often been wistful that I was not 'here' when the e-text was
> made, but rarely as much as now.

Let's do a new one! We'll call it the F-text.

T.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157004 ] Di, 25 Oktober 2005 21:59
Christopher Kreuzer  
Steuard Jensen <sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:

<snip>

> http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html

Brilliant! Thanks for posting that.

I loved the bit at the end:

"...he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink..."

Reminds me of a certain scene... :-)

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157023 ] Mi, 26 Oktober 2005 00:20
sbjensen  
Quoth Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> in article
<Xns96FAD3072A8C1T.Forch [at] 130.133.1.4>:
> sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) enriched us with:

[Speaking of my Simon and Garfunkle parody from the E-text project:]

> > http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html

> Wonderful, thanks!

You're welcome. :)

> > And my wife still reacts almost violently if I even joke about
> > playing it where she can hear it!

> With or without a smile?

Without, unfortunately. Or at least, if there's a smile, it's because
she doesn't actually expect me to follow through on my "threat" to
play the song.

> The sound-quality isn't all that good,

That was at least partly intentional, to mask some of the
imperfections in the recording. Also, the recording was originally
made in an older audio format at fairly low quality to keep file size
down; only later did I get my hands on a program to compress it into a
much smaller MP3. (And since I didn't keep the huge original
uncompressed file, I had to convert from the already-lossy version
that I had.)

> ...but the singing and playing doesn't seem all that bad

Well, the *playing* should be fine: due to a complete lack of guitar
ability (and lack of convenient friends who had it), I simply stripped
the vocal track from an actual Simon and Garfunkle recording. (I feel
a little guilty, but not much.) If you listen carefully, you can
still hear a whisper of the original lyrics in the background where
the voice-removal filter wasn't perfect.

> (though, of course, if it took any number of rehearsals and
> recordings to get to this point, then I might sympathise a bit with
> her <G>).

Far too many, I'm afraid. And it wasn't just that my singing was, er,
only okay, it was the sheer repetition. (Everyone knows how annoying
it can get when a new song gets overplayed on the radio; now imagine
that you were forced to listen to a radio station that kept playing
exactly the same song over and over for hours. Even with *good*
singers that would get annoying pretty quick!)

In the end, I think that her biggest complaint was that I spoiled the
original for her. Now, whenever "The Boxer" comes up on her iPod, she
starts to think "pocket full of marbles, such are Silmarils", etc.,
etc. She's mostly "better" now (in that she naturally remembers the
original words), but hearing even a few lines of my version can
trigger a full relapse lasting quite some time. :)

> I have often been wistful that I was not 'here' when the e-text was
> made, but rarely as much as now.

I guess it's time to build new group legends and culture, then. :)

Before you get too sentimental, though, I might mention that one of
the /unofficial/ purposes behind the E-text project was to take the
group's collective mind off of the unpleasant flame-filled era that
had just recently ended. There was some serious lingering nastiness
on the groups for a while, let me tell you! Providing a more positive
outlet for all that energy was probably a good thing. :)

Steuard Jensen
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157024 ] Mi, 26 Oktober 2005 00:27
sbjensen  
Quoth "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> in article
<l8w7f.137395$G8.68851 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
> Steuard Jensen <sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> > http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html

> I loved the bit at the end:
>
> "...he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink..."
>
> Reminds me of a certain scene... :-)

That's not surprising: one of my not infrequent parody-writing
techniques was to shamelessly use snippets from elsewhere in LotR (or
other books) directly in very different contexts. I think it was
rather effective, at least sometimes (I was careful to limit it to
very short bits, to avoid major copyright qualms).

For the record, if any of you are reading the full chapter /The
Pugilist/ (rather than just this song-based excerpt), make sure that
you take the time to figure out *exactly* how the Watchers (statues)
were sitting! I'm not sure that most readers ever did. (I got the
idea from an obscure Mark Twain story, "The Petrified Man".)

Steuard Jensen
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157025 ] Mi, 26 Oktober 2005 00:28
sbjensen  
Quoth "Taemon" <Taemon [at] zonnet.nl> in article <3s7gkcFmoe5pU1 [at] individual.net>:
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
> > http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html

> ROFL! I didn't know that one! Is that you singing?

It sure ain't Simon and Garfunkle! :) Yes, both parts are in fact me
(to my wife's dismay, as I've commented :) ). But the background
music is theirs.
Steuard Jensen
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157027 ] Mi, 26 Oktober 2005 01:18
pseudonimofaqhater  
Tamf Moo wrote:
> pseudonimofaqhater [at] yahoo.com.br spoke softly, shivering:
>
> > But at least they no longer can suppress the *truth* about cigars in
> > Middle-earth.
>
> there were no such things as cigars in muddle earth, and you know it!
> that "cigar" was a clone... or a space ship... or something like that.

You *obviously* haven't read your HOME, vol. 35, section 74, chapter
112, para. 19. (The one with the bullfight.)
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157036 ] Mi, 26 Oktober 2005 01:41
donnellaf  
Steuard Jensen wrote:

> For those who don't know (or don't recall) what Henriette is talking
> about, you can take a look at this excerpt:
>
> http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html

Bravo bravo! Quit your day job, become an errant Tolkien parodist!

On a completely unrelated note (but still Tolkienish, yes precious, and
still on the subject of musical parodies...so maybe I should say, "on a
very related note"), I wonder if people around here have heard of the
group Lords of the Rhymes (www.lordsoftherhymes.com/), and their gansta
rap Middle Earth stylings? The music video link on the homepage takes
one to their best offering (although I should provide a note of caution
for those sensitive to such things: there is a lot of profanity, in
keeping with the gangsta rap theme). I think they are pretty amusing
(although they are certainly not in the same class as Steuard)....


Andy
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157047 ] Mi, 26 Oktober 2005 07:52
gp.skinner  
>> > But at least they no longer can suppress the *truth* about
>> > cigars in
>> > Middle-earth.
>> there were no such things as cigars in muddle earth, and you
>> know it!
>> that "cigar" was a clone... or a space ship... or something
>> like that.
> You *obviously* haven't read your HOME, vol. 35, section 74,
> chapter
> 112, para. 19. (The one with the bullfight.)


Did you say bull*fight*??

I believe Eärendil returned once in a silver cigar pulled by a
flight of enchanted elves. Obviously there would be no real
cigars on ME as the Hobbits thighs would be too small to roll
them on - unless they could arrange a line of hobbit thighs
together I suppose.

Graeme
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157061 ] Mi, 26 Oktober 2005 16:56
Taemon  
Steuard Jensen wrote:

> Quoth "Taemon" <Taemon [at] zonnet.nl> in article
> <3s7gkcFmoe5pU1 [at] individual.net>:
>> Steuard Jensen wrote:
>>> http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html
>> ROFL! I didn't know that one! Is that you singing?
> It sure ain't Simon and Garfunkle! :) Yes, both parts are in fact me
> (to my wife's dismay, as I've commented :) ). But the background
> music is theirs.

Well, you have a nice voice. So I think your wife is totally
unreasonable! Well, okay, I don't think so. It's funny to hear the
voice of someone I never met.

T.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157069 ] Mi, 26 Oktober 2005 20:59
Christopher Kreuzer  
Taemon <Taemon [at] zonnet.nl> wrote:
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
>
>> Quoth "Taemon" <Taemon [at] zonnet.nl> in article
>> <3s7gkcFmoe5pU1 [at] individual.net>:
>>> Steuard Jensen wrote:
>>>> http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html
>>> ROFL! I didn't know that one! Is that you singing?
>> It sure ain't Simon and Garfunkle! :) Yes, both parts are in fact me
>> (to my wife's dismay, as I've commented :) ). But the background
>> music is theirs.
>
> Well, you have a nice voice. So I think your wife is totally
> unreasonable! Well, okay, I don't think so. It's funny to hear the
> voice of someone I never met.

I agree. Now I (and presumably others) have heard Belba's voice (from
the audio clip she offered a few weeks ago), and Steuard's voice (from
that audio clip).

I think this "putting a voice to a name" is much more suited to Usenet
than the silly ideas of seeing pictures of people. Maybe a parody of the
Music of the Ainur is in the offing?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157070 ] Mi, 26 Oktober 2005 21:01
Christopher Kreuzer  
Taemon <Taemon [at] zonnet.nl> wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>
>> I have often been wistful that I was not 'here' when the e-text was
>> made, but rarely as much as now.
>
> Let's do a new one! We'll call it the F-text.

Was there ever an e-text of /The Silmarillion/ dare I ask?
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157071 ] Mi, 26 Oktober 2005 21:13
gp.skinner  
> Was there ever an e-text of /The Silmarillion/ dare I ask?
>

The Sil was produced as a Q-text I think.

Graeme
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157073 ] Mi, 26 Oktober 2005 21:24
Taemon  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> Taemon <Taemon [at] zonnet.nl> wrote:
>> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>> I have often been wistful that I was not 'here' when the e-text
>>> was
>>> made, but rarely as much as now.
>> Let's do a new one! We'll call it the F-text.
> Was there ever an e-text of /The Silmarillion/ dare I ask?

Brilliant! We can run along with the CotW-project :-)

T.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157086 ] Do, 27 Oktober 2005 00:09
Stan Brown  
In Steuard's song at http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html I
see these words:

"When I left my home to go cross the sea,
I was no more than a boy
in a company of warriors."

Do we actually know how old Feanor's sons were when the Noldor left
Aman? I thought they were all full-grown.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157091 ] Do, 27 Oktober 2005 00:36
sbjensen  
Quoth Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> in article
<MPG.1dc9c89558e34c4b989af8 [at] news.individual.net>:
> In Steuard's song at http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html I
> see these words:
>
> "When I left my home to go cross the sea,
> I was no more than a boy
> in a company of warriors."
>
> Do we actually know how old Feanor's sons were when the Noldor left
> Aman? I thought they were all full-grown.

I've had that impression, too, though I did get a bit of a sense of
youth from the story of the youngest dying in the burning of the
ships. On the other hand, they would have been younger than a lot of
the Noldor in Valinor. (Did any of them even have children yet at
that point? Who was Celebrimbor's mother, and when was he born?)

In any case, I kept this line from the original song in my parody
because it seemed to fit so well. Just as in the original song, "no
more than a boy" may refer as much to personal maturity as it does to
chronological age. And I can imagine at least some of the sons of
Feanor thinking back on their oath as a symptom of their rash youth.
(Think of the regret that Maedhros and Maglor shared before their
final theft of the jewels.)

It's hard for me to imagine an Elf Galadriel's age--one who had lived
through the miseries of three ages of the world--taking such an oath
or doing the things that Feanor and his sons did. Had Maglor appeared
in LotR, I think he would have been much wiser than the Maglor who led
the host from Valinor. (Look at how much Galadriel herself had
matured in those thousands of years!)

Steuard Jensen
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157094 ] Do, 27 Oktober 2005 01:47
Tar-Elenion  
In article <IxT7f.3$i5.1004 [at] news.uchicago.edu>,
sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu says...
> Quoth Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> in article
> <MPG.1dc9c89558e34c4b989af8 [at] news.individual.net>:
> > In Steuard's song at http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/Pugilist.html I
> > see these words:
> >
> > "When I left my home to go cross the sea,
> > I was no more than a boy
> > in a company of warriors."
> >
> > Do we actually know how old Feanor's sons were when the Noldor left
> > Aman? I thought they were all full-grown.
>
> I've had that impression, too, though I did get a bit of a sense of
> youth from the story of the youngest dying in the burning of the
> ships. On the other hand, they would have been younger than a lot of
> the Noldor in Valinor. (Did any of them even have children yet at
> that point? Who was Celebrimbor's mother, and when was he born?)
>

Galadriel was the youngest (with Aredhel) of her generation, and was
around 1300 sun years old, per Annals of Aman, when the Noldor rebelled
and left.

<snip>
--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157099 ] Do, 27 Oktober 2005 04:04
Stan Brown  
Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:36:24 GMT from Steuard Jensen
<sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu>:
> It's hard for me to imagine an Elf Galadriel's age--one who had lived
> through the miseries of three ages of the world--taking such an oath
> or doing the things that Feanor and his sons did. Had Maglor appeared
> in LotR, I think he would have been much wiser than the Maglor who led
> the host from Valinor. (Look at how much Galadriel herself had
> matured in those thousands of years!)

That's an idea.

But I think he'd have been driven mad from the unending pain in his
hand for thousands of years. Eventually, I think, he'd have done away
with himself just to go to Mandos and begin repentance and healing.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157107 ] Do, 27 Oktober 2005 18:19
Tamf Moo  
Taemon spoke softly, shivering:

> Let's do a new one! We'll call it the F-text.

short for what?

the fun text?

the free text?

the fleece text?

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

Kittens are born with their eyes shut. They open them in about six days,
take a look around, then close them again for the better part of their
lives. (Stephen Baker)
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157110 ] Do, 27 Oktober 2005 18:37
Taemon  
Tamf Moo wrote:

> Taemon spoke softly, shivering:
>> Let's do a new one! We'll call it the F-text.
> short for what?
> the fun text?
> the free text?
> the fleece text?

Nah. The F-text is just what comes after the E-text.

T.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157114 ] Do, 27 Oktober 2005 19:05
Tamf Moo  
Taemon spoke softly, shivering:

> > the fleece text?
>
> Nah. The F-text is just what comes after the E-text.

that's much too negative. let's go for an upward tendency and the D-
text!

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

There's an old proverb that says just about whatever you want it to.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157124 ] Do, 27 Oktober 2005 22:12
Raven  
"Tamf Moo" <liddlelellow [at] yahoo.co.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:MPG.1dcb0e57de7394d1989736 [at] news.individual.net...

> Taemon spoke softly, shivering:

> > Let's do a new one! We'll call it the F-text.

> short for what?

> the fun text?

> the free text?

> the fleece text?

I think we shouldn't. An F-text is surely going to contain many
occurrences of the F-word.

Raafje.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #157128 ] Fr, 28 Oktober 2005 03:30
donnellaf  
Tamf Moo wrote:

> that's much too negative. let's go for an upward tendency and the D-
> text!

But if we de-text it, all we'll have left is PJ's movie (which I like,
but I wouldn't want to get rid of the books)....


Andy
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #159204 ] Fr, 28 Oktober 2005 22:38
Taemon  
Tamf Moo wrote:

> Taemon spoke softly, shivering:
>> Nah. The F-text is just what comes after the E-text.
> that's much too negative. let's go for an upward tendency and the D-
> text!

I like that. But... what do we do after the C-, B- and A-text?

T.
Re: Apology for OTishness [message #159232 ] So, 30 Oktober 2005 18:35
Tamf Moo  
Raven spoke softly, shivering:

> I think we shouldn't. An F-text is surely going to contain many
> occurrences of the F-word.

yeah, but *what* f-word? that's what i'm trying to find out.

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

fleas?
Vorheriges Thema:What would be next (movie)- opening conversation
Nächstes Thema:The influence of the Ring on evil creatures; was: Regarding Balrogs
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