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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » CotW page updated (Silmarillion)
| CotW page updated (Silmarillion) [message #152401] |
Mi, 19 Oktober 2005 23:57 |
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The CotW page for the discussions on /The Silmarillion/ has been
updated, including a link to the Google Groups Usenet archive of the
current discussion on the Foreword.
http://parasha.maoltuile.org
One brief note to those posting introductions for this series of
discussions. There are really only two key things to remember, one of
which I managed to forget...
1) Please cross-post your post so that it appears in both Tolkien
newsgroups (like this post is doing). That means putting both
rec.arts.books.tolkien and alt.fan.tolkien in the "newsgroups" header.
Please remember not to post to just one of these newsgroups, or (even
worse) to post separately to each newsgroup. Also, please start each
week's discussion as a _new_ thread, which means not just replying to
any old message and posting your introduction there.
2) Please give the post a suitable title, as described on the project
page, and please also make clear at the beginning of your post that the
post is part of the 'Chapter of the week' discussions, as well as giving
a link to the project page.
Something like:
"Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Silmarillion' Chapter <x>: <name of
chapter>.
To read previous Chapter of the Week discussions, or to sign up to
introduce a future chapter, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org"
Thanks.
Christopher
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| Re: CotW page updated (Silmarillion) [message #152405 ] |
Do, 20 Oktober 2005 00:32 |
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Looks like you need more people to take chapters. I'll take the
Darkening of Valinor.
-Chris
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| Re: CotW page updated (Silmarillion) [message #152423 ] |
Do, 20 Oktober 2005 04:45 |
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Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:57:45 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
> 2) Please give the post a suitable title, as described on the project
> page, and please also make clear at the beginning of your post that the
> post is part of the 'Chapter of the week' discussions, as well as giving
> a link to the project page.
>
> Something like:
>
> "Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Silmarillion' Chapter <x>: <name of
> chapter>.
Might I suggest
(CotW) Silm Chapter <x>: <name of chapter>
If you begin every subject with the same long text string, many
people will see only that in their "subjects" or "threads" window,
and some newsreaders will consider all the chapters to be the same
thread.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
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| Re: CotW page updated (Silmarillion) [message #152463 ] |
Do, 20 Oktober 2005 18:18 |
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Quoth Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> in article
<MPG.1dc0cecf7d07720e989a49 [at] news.individual.net>:
> <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
> > 2) Please give the post a suitable title...
> Might I suggest
>
> (CotW) Silm Chapter <x>: <name of chapter>
Or for that matter,
(CotW) Silm Chp. <x>: <name of chapter>
That seems just as understandable, and even better for those hampered
by short subject line displays. I'm not picky about whether to use
"Silm" or "Silm." :)
Or is this taking efficiency a step too far? I don't _think_ it would
be at all unclear (particularly to anyone who knew what "CotW" meant).
Steuard Jensen
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| Re: CotW page updated (Silmarillion) [message #152473 ] |
Do, 20 Oktober 2005 20:57 |
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In message <news:MPG.1dc0cecf7d07720e989a49 [at] news.individual.net>
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>
> Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:57:45 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
> <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
>>
>> 2) Please give the post a suitable title,
[...]
>> Something like:
>>
>> "Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Silmarillion' Chapter <x>: <name
>> of chapter>.
>
> Might I suggest
>
> (CotW) Silm Chapter <x>: <name of chapter>
Good idea -- shorter is, in this context, better.
The trend for the chapters of LotR seems to be to use
CotW LotR [Bk <x>] Ch. <y> <name of chapter>
With various other characters such as ,.:;'"- and _ distributed about
as befit the individual author ;-) and with differing versions of book
(omitted, 'bk', 'bk.', 'book' and capitialised versions) and chapter
('ch', 'ch.' 'chapter' and others).
Personally I agree that using 'CotW Silm ch' is the best beginning (I
don't think we need the period after 'Silm' though it is an
abbreviation).
We might discuss whether to put some kind of brackets around the CotW
part, but that has not, as far as I can see, been done so far for LotR,
so it might be more confusing than helpful ... ?
I suggest that
CotW Silm ch <X> <name of chapter>
is sufficient.
Various punctuation marks can always be added as per the personal
preferences of the author, but everybody can sort on the
'CotW Silm' part (and of course more spectacular search patterns can be
contrived by those who use regular expressions <GG>)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
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| Re: CotW page updated (Silmarillion) [message #154380 ] |
So, 23 Oktober 2005 18:00 |
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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:57:45 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
> <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
>> 2) Please give the post a suitable title, as described on the project
>> page, and please also make clear at the beginning of your post that
>> the post is part of the 'Chapter of the week' discussions, as well
>> as giving a link to the project page.
>>
>> Something like:
>>
>> "Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Silmarillion' Chapter <x>: <name of
>> chapter>.
>
> Might I suggest
>
> (CotW) Silm Chapter <x>: <name of chapter>
>
> If you begin every subject with the same long text string, many
> people will see only that in their "subjects" or "threads" window,
> and some newsreaders will consider all the chapters to be the same
> thread.
Good point about the long subject lines. In fact, I should have
remembered this, as I've moaned about searches by "subject" in Google
not being able to find text a long way down the "subject" text string.
At least that was a problem a year or so ago.
But I was actually not specifying a format for the subject header
(though I should have done). I was asking people to reproduce the full
details in the first line or two of their post, both for completeness
and to expand any abbreviations people might use later in the post.
I agree that the subject line should be of a short format, similar to
those that you, Steuard and Troels have suggested, though I think
whatever Troels comes up with for next week should be the informal
standard format.
But it is important to write out all abbreviations at least once within
the body of the post. So as well as having (to use Troels's format):
Subject: "CotW Silm ch <X> <name of chapter>"
...there should also be:
First lines of post: "Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Silmarillion'
Chapter <x>: <name of chapter>."
This helps when people search for "Chapter of the Week". Unsurprisingly,
if the post only contains CotW, it is not found when you search for
"Chapter of the Week". Similarly, if people _only_ use the term "Silm"
in the subject and the post, then searches for "Silmarillion" will miss
it.
Also, I think that when people use the terms HoME and LotR, they should
write it out in full at least once, at least for more formal writings.
And I always tried to introduce the LotR chapters I did, by saying
"Chapter of the week, The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring,
Book 1, chapter 3..." etc.
Trying to think of terms to search by is interesting sometimes. I once
thought of trying to think of all the HoME abbreviations that people
might have used, when trying to search Google for discussions on
particular HoME volumes. You'd have to search for variations such as the
full title, abbreviation, and volume number (in roman or normal
numerals).
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: CotW page updated (Silmarillion) [message #154386 ] |
So, 23 Oktober 2005 18:58 |
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In message <news:vsO6f.135421$G8.44752 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> I agree that the subject line should be of a short format, similar
> to those that you, Steuard and Troels have suggested, though I
> think whatever Troels comes up with for next week should be the
> informal standard format.
OK, I'll try to be smart about it, then ;-)
> But it is important to write out all abbreviations at least once
> within the body of the post.
Agreed.
> So as well as having (to use Troels's format):
>
> Subject: "CotW Silm ch <X> <name of chapter>"
We all assume just a chapter, but the Silm is split up in two levels.
We have the tales, and for the Quenta Silmarillion we have a
subdivision in chapters.
So, I wonder how we should number things?
It is perhaps clearer for 'Of Aulė and Yavanna', which could be III,2
(part three, being the Quenta, chapter 2), or ch. 4 (basically being
the fourth chapter in Silm).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
"What're quantum mechanics?"
"I don't know. People who repair quantums, I suppose."
- /Eric/ (Terry Pratchett)
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| Re: CotW page updated (Silmarillion) [message #154389 ] |
So, 23 Oktober 2005 19:13 |
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Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:00:27 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
> I agree that the subject line should be of a short format, ...
>
> But it is important to write out all abbreviations at least once within
> the body of the post. So as well as having (to use Troels's format):
>
> Subject: "CotW Silm ch <X> <name of chapter>"
>
> ..there should also be:
>
> First lines of post: "Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Silmarillion'
> Chapter <x>: <name of chapter>."
>
> This helps when people search for "Chapter of the Week". Unsurprisingly,
> if the post only contains CotW, it is not found when you search for
> "Chapter of the Week".
Makes excellent sense to me. Thanks for clarifying. As the CotW
discussions are consciously meant to be of interest longer than the
typical article, I like the pre-planning so that they'll be easy to
search for.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
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| Re: CotW page updated (Silmarillion) [message #154392 ] |
So, 23 Oktober 2005 19:59 |
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Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> In message <news:vsO6f.135421$G8.44752 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>>
>> I agree that the subject line should be of a short format, similar
>> to those that you, Steuard and Troels have suggested, though I
>> think whatever Troels comes up with for next week should be the
>> informal standard format.
>
> OK, I'll try to be smart about it, then ;-)
<snip>
>> Subject: "CotW Silm ch <X> <name of chapter>"
>
> We all assume just a chapter, but the Silm is split up in two levels.
> We have the tales, and for the Quenta Silmarillion we have a
> subdivision in chapters.
>
> So, I wonder how we should number things?
I'd say just drop the "ch" or "chapter" bit for anything outside Quenta
Silmarillion. So for Ainulindale (to pick a completely random example of
course!) it would be:
Subject: "CotW Silmarillion - Ainulindale"
[As you can see, I favour '-' over ':' or ',' or even ' ' or '' {look
closely}, and I favour putting Silmarillion in full, but I went with the
Silm abbreviation below]
And ditto for:
Subject: "CotW Silmarillion - Valaquenta"
Subject: "CotW Silmarillion - Akallabeth"
Subject: "CotW Silmarillion - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"
Note that I left out the diacretic marks in Ainulindale and Akallabeth.
Asking people to put those in is probably a bit much, though whether you
want to put them in or not is up to you. I do hope search engines treat
Ainulindale and Ainulindalė the same!
> It is perhaps clearer for 'Of Aulė and Yavanna', which could be III,2
> (part three, being the Quenta, chapter 2), or ch. 4 (basically being
> the fourth chapter in Silm).
I don't like the "fourth chapter" suggestion. It is chapter 2 of 24,
plain and simple. Chapters should only refer to the Quenta Silmarillion.
There are few enough of the other bits/sections/parts (two at the
beginning and two at the end) that we should be able to avoid confusion.
Technically speaking it is chapter 2 of the Quenta Silmarillion, so QS
should be mentioned in the title, but no-one will remember...
So, how about this:
Subject: "CotW Silm - Ainulindale"
Subject: "CotW Silm - Valaquenta"
Subject: "CotW Silm ch 1 Of the Beginning of Days"
Subject: "CotW Silm ch 2 Of Aulė and Yavanna"
..
..
..
Subject: "CotW Silm - Akallabeth"
Subject: "CotW Silm - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"
That has the subject lines differing by character 14 of the subject line
at latest (the chapter numbers in Quenta), and uses a hyphen and absence
of the 'ch' tag to distinguish those parts outside Quenta Silmarillion.
If you (Troels), Yuk Tang and Larry get the format right for the bits
outside Quenta Silmarillion, then I can update the page with the
standard format for the other chapters. Always remembering that it
doesn't _really_ matter! As long as it makes some kind of sense. It is
more important to post in the correct place (new thread) and to
cross-post to both newsgroups.
Christopher
--
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: CotW page updated (Silmarillion) [message #154431 ] |
Mo, 24 Oktober 2005 02:43 |
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23 Oct 2005 16:58:00 GMT from Troels Forchhammer
<Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid>:
> We all assume just a chapter, but the Silm is split up in two levels.
> We have the tales, and for the Quenta Silmarillion we have a
> subdivision in chapters.
>
> So, I wonder how we should number things?
>
> It is perhaps clearer for 'Of Aulė and Yavanna', which could be III,2
> (part three, being the Quenta, chapter 2), or ch. 4 (basically being
> the fourth chapter in Silm).
I suggest
Valaquenta
Ch 2: Of Aule and Yavanna
In other words, give a chapter number only if there's one in the
book. For the four parts outside of the Quenta, the title is
adequate, in my opinion.
I think it would be very bad to call "Of Aule and Yavanna" chapter 4:
think of people who search by chapter number.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
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