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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Breeding orcs and other baddies
| Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152190] |
So, 16 Oktober 2005 23:21 |
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Thanks Stan Brown for posting this extract from the _Sil_ (my copy
is buried deep in storage):
> "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor
> little is known of a certainty. For who of the living
> has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored
> the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is
> held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of
> the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere
> Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by
> slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus
> did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy
> and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards
> the bitterest foes."
Assuming orcs are descended from the Firstborn, I've wondered how
Melkor was able to "breed" them into a hideous race.
Some time ago researchers associated with the Russian fur industry
conducted an experiment to produce a docile breed of fox. See:
http://www.exn.ca/Stories/1999/03/30/55.asp
The results were surprising: after many generations the foxes' pelts
became mottled (useless for the fur trade) and they exhibited
behavior more typical of dogs than foxes.
What if the First (and Second) Born of Middle Earth were bred
intentionally for viciousness?
There have also been genetic studies done on human families who seem
to have a criminal bent; researchers have discovered a few families
with at least one serious criminal in every generation going back
centuries.
Perhaps they would have made ideal breeding stock for Melkor's agenda.
Of course, any human (or animal) can be made vicious by maltreatment,
especially in infancy, but presumably the next generation would be
no worse than the general run of the population if the rearing was
made more kindly.
However, the fox researchers made an effort to choose individuals with
the maximum innate gentleness, uninfluenced by social environment.
So perhaps Melkor carefully chose individuals genetically predisposed
to the qualities he wanted and selectively bred them through many
generations in the First Age.
The results may have looked as well as acted quite different than
the original Firstborn; a hideous and distorted version of Eru's
intent. (Asking why Eru allowed this to happen of course opens
another theological can of worms).
Presumably for this program to work, the original breeding stock
has to possess a finite (however small) degree of badness.
The Eldar were not 100% good; as I recall some of them murdered their
fellow elves to steal their ships.
And since the Elves and Men seem to be genetically compatible
enough to produce half-elven, the orcs may well be a blended breed,
with the worst (and most dangerous) qualities of each. However,
I don't suppose the orcs were offered anything like an
Irrevocable Choice.
Left to their own devices, orcs seem to think along these lines:
'What d'you say? [said Gorbag] -- if we get a chance, you and me'll
slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads,
somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.
'Ah!' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'
In other words, they're natural born (but small time) thugs, robbers,
and brigands who dislike regimentation. To me they seem more like
the petty thieves and other criminals of the English society that
Tolkien knew, or rather viewed from his position in the upper class
than the grossly ugly ogres as rendered in various movie versions.
I don't remember any female or child orcs in any of the stories,
but a good example of orc family life might be Stephen Crane's
_Maggie: a Girl of the Streets_ (available free on-line from
Gutenberg). Stephen Crane is most famous for his American Civil War
story _The Red Badge of Courage_, but in _Maggie_ he explores
in minute detail the squalor of everyday life in a New York slum
around the turn of the 20th century. The characters seem perpetually
angry with each other and appear incapable of speaking in any other
mode than threatening or insulting tones.
Here's a small example (to read the whole story you have to endure
weary chapters of it):
The little girl upbraided him, "Youse allus fightin', Jimmie,
an' yeh knows it puts mudder out when yehs come home half dead,
an' it's like we'll all get a poundin'."
She began to weep. The babe threw back his head and roared at his
prospects.
"Ah, what deh hell!" cried Jimmie. Shut up er I'll smack yer mout'.
See?" *
As his sister continued her lamentations, he suddenly swore
and struck her. The little girl reeled and, recovering herself,
burst into tears and quaveringly cursed him. As she slowly
retreated her brother advanced dealing her cuffs. The father heard
and turned about.
"Stop that, Jim, d'yeh hear? Leave yer sister alone on the street.
It's like I can never beat any sense into yer damned wooden head."
More orcish behaviour can be see in _The Gangs of New York_.
Sean
* Compare that "See?" with this:
'Because if a Boss gives trouble, we can change him. See? And if
little folk try to push in where they're not wanted, we can
put them out of mischief. See?'
-- actually from a man, not an orc, but what Sam called "Orc talk".
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152197 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 06:34 |
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In response to your thoughts on the look of the Orcs in the movies (and
therefore most illustrations for Tolkien's works). I believe that the
pure evil of Melkor then Sauron and all fell beasts, Balrogs and the
Orcs compounds with time, creating ugliness over the ages. And as all
are pretty much immortal, there would be plenty of time for the
putridness to compound. Look at Smeagol, before finding the ring of
power he essentially was a normal halfling fisherman. Both time and
evil expanded by the ring turned and twisted him into the hideous
creature Gollum. Both mentally and physically the ring changed him,
basically using him as a tool, or minder awaiting its time. I always
thought of the orcs as being twisted by the saturated evil of the dark
powers.
Also both Melkor and Sauron were both able to assume a fair veneer
early on in their existence. Time and various deeds and Karma I
suppose twisted them into the rightful dark forms until not even their
massive powers would enable them to retrieve their fair forms.
Re female Orcs, I just dont know.... I did like the way that Peter
Jackson enabled Saruman to "create" the Urukai though. I think that
interpretation was necessary as Tolkien didnt really give a clue on
this.
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152198 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 08:57 |
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Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote:
<snip>
> So perhaps Melkor carefully chose individuals genetically predisposed
> to the qualities he wanted and selectively bred them through many
> generations in the First Age.
>
> The results may have looked as well as acted quite different than
> the original Firstborn; a hideous and distorted version of Eru's
> intent. (Asking why Eru allowed this to happen of course opens
> another theological can of worms).
Someone else mentioned the hideous appearances of Sauron (after the Fall
of Numenor) and Morgoth (in the First Age) and of Gollum. But I'm trying
to remember where we are explicitly told of the hideous appearance of
orcs. Did the movies exaggerate the books, or not?
<snip stuff including examples of 'Orc Talk'>
> More orcish behaviour can be see in _The Gangs of New York_.
[...]
> 'Because if a Boss gives trouble, we can change him. See? And if
> little folk try to push in where they're not wanted, we can
> put them out of mischief. See?'
> -- actually from a man, not an orc, but what Sam called "Orc talk".
And this all reminds me of /Letters/ where Tolkien (writing to his son,
Christopher, who was stationed in South Africa in World War 2) says that
the soldiers that Christopher Tolkien is complaining about, are using
'Orc Talk'. And there are other letters where JRRT specifically
describes orcs and elves as representing different aspects of humans.
Broadly speaking, orcs are the bad elements and elves the good, high and
noble elements. With exceptions. Which is a more general example of how
any fantastical story that humans write can only, in the end, reflect
the world in which they were raised and in which humans (or ideas from
human brains) are the prime antagonists. So ultimately any moral/immoral
creature in a fantastical story will be modelled on human behaviour,
consciously or unconsciously. Until we meet real, live aliens, that is.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152207 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 15:44 |
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Sean spoke softly, shivering:
> However, the fox researchers made an effort to choose individuals with
> the maximum innate gentleness, uninfluenced by social environment.
what i really want to know is if this has any significance for the
talking fox. had it been bred by, say, Radagast, for intelligence? or by
Saruman for reporting? or by Otho "Purveyor of Fine Furs" Sackville-
Baggins for his own nefarious purposes?
--
Tamf, who'd like a tame fox
Wars do not determine who is right, wars determine who is left.
(Sentinel)
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152208 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 15:36 |
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Sean wrote:
> Thanks Stan Brown for posting this extract from the _Sil_ (my copy
> is buried deep in storage):
>
>> "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor
>> little is known of a certainty. For who of the living
>> has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored
>> the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is
>> held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of
>> the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere
>> Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by
>> slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus
>> did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy
>> and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards
>> the bitterest foes."
>
> Assuming orcs are descended from the Firstborn, I've wondered how
> Melkor was able to "breed" them into a hideous race.
>
> Some time ago researchers associated with the Russian fur industry
> conducted an experiment to produce a docile breed of fox. See:
>
> http://www.exn.ca/Stories/1999/03/30/55.asp
>
> The results were surprising: after many generations the foxes' pelts
> became mottled (useless for the fur trade) and they exhibited
> behavior more typical of dogs than foxes.
And brilliantly discussed in "Dogs : a startling new understanding of canine
origin, behavior, and evolution" by Raymond & Lorna Coppinger (Scribner,
2001).
> However, the fox researchers made an effort to choose individuals with
> the maximum innate gentleness, uninfluenced by social environment.
>
> So perhaps Melkor carefully chose individuals genetically predisposed
> to the qualities he wanted and selectively bred them through many
> generations in the First Age.
>
> The results may have looked as well as acted quite different than
> the original Firstborn; a hideous and distorted version of Eru's
> intent.
Smacks of some of the vilest theories of the Eugenics movement - how
criminal tendencies might be linked to skin color or any other physical
attribute - but just because being black doesn't predispose you to being
evil, doesn't mean that if you bred for evil you wouldn't get particular
physical traits.
> In other words, they're natural born (but small time) thugs, robbers,
> and brigands who dislike regimentation. To me they seem more like
> the petty thieves and other criminals of the English society that
> Tolkien knew, or rather viewed from his position in the upper class
> than the grossly ugly ogres as rendered in various movie versions.
I think the derivations of both "orc" and "goblin" support that.
> I don't remember any female or child orcs in any of the stories,
> but a good example of orc family life might be Stephen Crane's
> _Maggie: a Girl of the Streets_ (available free on-line from
> Gutenberg). Stephen Crane is most famous for his American Civil War
> story _The Red Badge of Courage_, but in _Maggie_ he explores
> in minute detail the squalor of everyday life in a New York slum
> around the turn of the 20th century. The characters seem perpetually
> angry with each other and appear incapable of speaking in any other
> mode than threatening or insulting tones.
In other words, the hopeless lives of slum-dwellers everywhere, in every
time.
--
derek
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152212 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 16:39 |
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Quoth "Brego" <shooper [at] auspinners.com.au> in article
<1129523688.534513.199850 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
> Re female Orcs, I just dont know.... I did like the way that Peter
> Jackson enabled Saruman to "create" the Urukai though. I think that
> interpretation was necessary as Tolkien didnt really give a clue on
> this.
Didn't he? He certainly told us that "the Orcs had life and
multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar" (/The
Silmarillion/, "Of the Coming of the Elves"). That seems to imply the
existence of female Orcs pretty directly.
The idea that Orcs reproduced pretty much the same way that we do is
also implicit in Tolkien's discussions of Morgoth and Saruman's
Orc-Man breeding projects:
"Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few
generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits;
and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing
new breeds, often larger and more cunning."
-- /Morgoth's Ring/, Text X of "Myths Transformed"
and immediately after that quote,
"There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman
rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for
mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of
Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and
Orc-men treacherous and vile."
-- ibid.
And I think that last one addresses questions about Saruman's breeding
program as well. (There's still some debate about whether the
Uruk-hai of Isengard were a product of that breeding program or not,
mind you!)
Steuard Jensen
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152218 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 18:01 |
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Dateline Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:44:02 +0100 from Tamf Moo
<liddlelellow [at] yahoo.co.uk>:
> Sean spoke softly, shivering:
> > However, the fox researchers made an effort to choose individuals with
> > the maximum innate gentleness, uninfluenced by social environment.
>
> what i really want to know is if this has any significance for the
> talking fox. had it been bred by, say, Radagast, for intelligence? or by
> Saruman for reporting? or by Otho "Purveyor of Fine Furs" Sackville-
> Baggins for his own nefarious purposes?
I don't believe there was any talking fox in LotR. There was a
_thinking_ fox, but I don't think was part of the original Red Book
of Westmarch. That was Frodo's memoir, after all, and there's no way
he could have known the fox's thoughts. (I think pretty much
everything else in LotR was experienced either by Frodo himself or by
others who would have shared their reminiscences with him.)
Probably the "thinking fox" was added by some scribe or translator
over the centuries, to make the story more appealing to younger
readers.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152220 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 18:38 |
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On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:57:33 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
{snip}
> Someone else mentioned the hideous appearances of Sauron (after the Fall
> of Numenor) and Morgoth (in the First Age) and of Gollum. But I'm trying
> to remember where we are explicitly told of the hideous appearance of
> orcs. Did the movies exaggerate the books, or not?
{snip}
From "The Uruk-Hai" chapter of LotR:
"He stooped over Pippin, bringing his yellow fangs close to his face."
Not a big deal. Teeth don't have to be much longer than regular human teeth
to be "fangs". And as far as the yellowness, I doubt they brushed regularly.
"Grishnakh, a short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms that
hung almost to the ground."
OK, a bit stranger.
"The Orc's clawlike hand gripped Pippin's arms like iron; the nails bit into
him."
Maybe they just need a manicure?
"Hard hands with rending nails gripped and lifted him."
"large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs"
Being swarthy and slant-eyed doesn't necessarily sound inherently hideous to
me, but others my have different tastes.
the Nazgul are "the apple of the Great Eye."
Nothing to do with Orc description, but I saw it and remembered how much I
like this line. ;)
"the filthy jowl and hairy ear of the Orc"
So they're not clean and have hairy ears.
From "The Tower of Cirith Ungol":
"its bloodshot eyes."
Maybe they just need some Visine?
"Shagrat, a large orc with long arms that, as he ran crouching, reached to
the ground."
Again with the arms.
"In the red glare Same, cowering behind the stair-door, caught a glimpse of
his evil face as it passed: it was scored as if by rending claws and smeared
with blood; slaver dripped from its protruding fance; the mouth snarled like
an animal."
The wounds to his face were probably inflicted by Gorbag. Again, we have
fangs and he can't seem to control his spittle.
"his left claw"
Again with the claws.
"It put out a claw"
"He stopped, growling, baring his fangs."
From "The Land of Shadow":
"it was a small breed, black-skinned, with wide and snuffling nostrils:
evidently a tracker of some kind."
That's all the real descriptions of Orcs I could find. They're also often
described as "ugly" or "hideous" but that doesn't really say much.
---
Graham
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152233 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 20:39 |
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Graham Lockwood <g-ng [at] yeehawgroups.com> wrote in
news:0001HW.BF793DA8002605CAF0284600 [at] news.dallas.sbcglobal.net:
> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:57:33 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
> {snip}
>> Someone else mentioned the hideous appearances of Sauron (after the
>> Fall of Numenor) and Morgoth (in the First Age) and of Gollum. But
>> I'm trying to remember where we are explicitly told of the hideous
>> appearance of orcs. Did the movies exaggerate the books, or not?
> {snip}
>
> From "The Uruk-Hai" chapter of LotR:
[snips great research on the looks of orcs]
The descriptions you've gathered make me think of how australopithecus,
proconsul major etc often are depicted in reconstructions. More human than
apes, more animal-like than men. Maybe orcs were the real ancestors of
Edain. :)
--
Mästerkatten
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152236 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 21:13 |
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Mästerkatten wrote:
> The descriptions you've gathered make me think of how
> australopithecus, proconsul major etc often are depicted in
> reconstructions. More human than apes, more animal-like than men.
> Maybe orcs were the real ancestors of Edain. :)
ROFL! What would Tolkien have thought of Neanderthal people? Surely he
didn't believe in such a being?
T.
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152240 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 22:08 |
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On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:13:20 -0500, Taemon wrote
(in article <3ribemFjosj9U1 [at] individual.net>):
> Mästerkatten wrote:
>
>> The descriptions you've gathered make me think of how
>> australopithecus, proconsul major etc often are depicted in
>> reconstructions. More human than apes, more animal-like than men.
>> Maybe orcs were the real ancestors of Edain. :)
>
> ROFL! What would Tolkien have thought of Neanderthal people? Surely he
> didn't believe in such a being?
Regardless, I don't recall ever seeing any hominid reconstructions with
anything I would describe as "fangs", nor with "claws", which seem to be the
main differences.
---
Graham
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152243 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 21:19 |
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"Tamf Moo" <liddlelellow [at] yahoo.co.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:MPG.1dbdbb0166abc695989714 [at] news.individual.net...
> what i really want to know is if this has any significance for the
> talking fox. had it been bred by, say, Radagast, for intelligence? or by
> Saruman for reporting? or by Otho "Purveyor of Fine Furs" Sackville-
> Baggins for his own nefarious purposes?
It had been bred by high Elves, for food. Check the etext.
> Tamf, who'd like a tame fox
You'd like a CHOKLIT fox, I reckon.
Ramn.
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152244 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 22:39 |
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"Taemon" <Taemon [at] zonnet.nl> wrote in news:3ribemFjosj9U1 [at] individual.net:
> Mästerkatten wrote:
>
>> The descriptions you've gathered make me think of how
>> australopithecus, proconsul major etc often are depicted in
>> reconstructions. More human than apes, more animal-like than men.
>> Maybe orcs were the real ancestors of Edain. :)
>
> ROFL! What would Tolkien have thought of Neanderthal people? Surely he
> didn't believe in such a being?
It would be interesting to know if he ever commented on them.
I've always liked to think of the possibility that memories of Neanderthals
are the basis for the notion of trolls (or giants) in European folk lore.
After all, if you count (tale-telling) generations they seem to have died
out not that long ago - we just missed them! But I don't have much
knowledge about how the fauna of folk lore tales developed.
--
Mästerkatten
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152245 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 22:39 |
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Graham Lockwood <g-ng [at] yeehawgroups.com> wrote in
news:0001HW.BF796EF3002C362FF0284600 [at] news.dallas.sbcglobal.net:
> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:13:20 -0500, Taemon wrote
> (in article <3ribemFjosj9U1 [at] individual.net>):
>
>> Mästerkatten wrote:
>>
>>> The descriptions you've gathered make me think of how
>>> australopithecus, proconsul major etc often are depicted in
>>> reconstructions. More human than apes, more animal-like than men.
>>> Maybe orcs were the real ancestors of Edain. :)
>>
>> ROFL! What would Tolkien have thought of Neanderthal people? Surely
>> he didn't believe in such a being?
>
> Regardless, I don't recall ever seeing any hominid reconstructions
> with anything I would describe as "fangs", nor with "claws", which
> seem to be the main differences.
Claws, not. But I seem to recall an illustration of proconsul major with
prominent canine teeth, like a chimpanzee or a gorilla. How long a canine
tooth needs to be to aptly be called "a fang", is beyond my English
knowledge, though.
--
Mästerkatten
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152246 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 23:36 |
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Mästerkatten <nopspam [at] nospam.com> wrote:
> Graham Lockwood <g-ng [at] yeehawgroups.com> wrote in
> news:0001HW.BF796EF3002C362FF0284600 [at] news.dallas.sbcglobal.net:
>
>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:13:20 -0500, Taemon wrote
>> (in article <3ribemFjosj9U1 [at] individual.net>):
>>
>>> Mästerkatten wrote:
>>>
>>>> The descriptions you've gathered make me think of how
>>>> australopithecus, proconsul major etc often are depicted in
>>>> reconstructions. More human than apes, more animal-like than men.
>>>> Maybe orcs were the real ancestors of Edain. :)
>>>
>>> ROFL! What would Tolkien have thought of Neanderthal people? Surely
>>> he didn't believe in such a being?
>>
>> Regardless, I don't recall ever seeing any hominid reconstructions
>> with anything I would describe as "fangs", nor with "claws", which
>> seem to be the main differences.
>
> Claws, not. But I seem to recall an illustration of proconsul major
> with prominent canine teeth [...]
Ooh! Vampires?
On second thoughts, vampire bats is enough for Dracula.
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152249 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 23:55 |
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Raven spoke softly, shivering:
> > Tamf, who'd like a tame fox
>
> You'd like a CHOKLIT fox, I reckon.
yes! a fox that could fetch me CHOKLIT!
but i already have an ent who can do that...
--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.
I do agree that Narsil was, at the time of this chapter, most likely
not carried as a weapon. Not until it was reforged would it be so - but
in [a] pinch, I bet he whacked something with it. If only a rather
tough and over-cooked egg. (TeaLady)
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152251 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 23:56 |
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Stan Brown spoke softly, shivering:
> I don't believe there was any talking fox in LotR. There was a
> _thinking_ fox, but I don't think was part of the original Red Book
> of Westmarch.
it was speaking! to itself, maybe, but what can you do when there's no-
one but trees in the forest to listen to you?
> Probably the "thinking fox" was added by some scribe or translator
> over the centuries, to make the story more appealing to younger
> readers.
it certainly appealed to me. }:8)
--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.
I do agree that Narsil was, at the time of this chapter, most likely
not carried as a weapon. Not until it was reforged would it be so - but
in [a] pinch, I bet he whacked something with it. If only a rather
tough and over-cooked egg. (TeaLady)
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152252 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 00:41 |
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On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:56:15 -0500, Tamf Moo wrote
(in article <MPG.1dbe2e5effc5f92298971a [at] news.individual.net>):
> Stan Brown spoke softly, shivering:
>
>> I don't believe there was any talking fox in LotR. There was a
>> _thinking_ fox, but I don't think was part of the original Red Book
>> of Westmarch.
>
> it was speaking! to itself, maybe, but what can you do when there's no-
> one but trees in the forest to listen to you?
{snip}
I thought YOU of all people would understand..
---
Graham
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152254 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 01:06 |
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Graham Lockwood spoke softly, shivering:
> > it was speaking! to itself, maybe, but what can you do when there's no-
> > one but trees in the forest to listen to you?
> I thought YOU of all people would understand..
i talk to treeees... that's why they put me awaaaay...
--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.
"Tonight thousands of people on this earth will die of starvation. Most
of you will not give a shit. And most of you will be more upset with
the fact that I said, 'shit' than that thousands of people will die
tonight." (Tony Campolo)
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152256 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 01:21 |
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Dateline 17 Oct 2005 20:39:41 GMT from Mästerkatten
<nopspam [at] nospam.com>:
> I've always liked to think of the possibility that memories of Neanderthals
> are the basis for the notion of trolls (or giants) in European folk lore.
> After all, if you count (tale-telling) generations they seem to have died
> out not that long ago - we just missed them! But I don't have much
> knowledge about how the fauna of folk lore tales developed.
The Neanderthals did not die out, if I recall correctly. Through
interbreeding their genes live on in many humans today. I can't
recall where I read that, though.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152260 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 04:15 |
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Taemon wrote:
> Mästerkatten wrote:
>
>
>>The descriptions you've gathered make me think of how
>>australopithecus, proconsul major etc often are depicted in
>>reconstructions. More human than apes, more animal-like than men.
>>Maybe orcs were the real ancestors of Edain. :)
>
>
> ROFL! What would Tolkien have thought of Neanderthal people? Surely he
> didn't believe in such a being?
To the best of my knowledge, there is no reason to believe that he did not.
--
John W. Kennedy
"Information is light. Information, in itself, about anything, is light."
-- Tom Stoppard. "Night and Day"
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152261 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 04:16 |
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Stan Brown wrote:
> Dateline 17 Oct 2005 20:39:41 GMT from Mästerkatten
> <nopspam [at] nospam.com>:
>
>>I've always liked to think of the possibility that memories of Neanderthals
>>are the basis for the notion of trolls (or giants) in European folk lore.
>>After all, if you count (tale-telling) generations they seem to have died
>>out not that long ago - we just missed them! But I don't have much
>>knowledge about how the fauna of folk lore tales developed.
>
>
> The Neanderthals did not die out, if I recall correctly. Through
> interbreeding their genes live on in many humans today. I can't
> recall where I read that, though.
I /think/ the issue is still in doubt.
--
John W. Kennedy
"...if you had to fall in love with someone who was evil, I can see why
it was her."
-- "Alias"
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152262 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 04:44 |
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Tamf Moo wrote:
> Sean spoke softly, shivering:
>
>>However, the fox researchers made an effort to choose individuals with
>>the maximum innate gentleness, uninfluenced by social environment.
>
>
> what i really want to know is if this has any significance for the
> talking fox. had it been bred by, say, Radagast, for intelligence? or by
> Saruman for reporting? or by Otho "Purveyor of Fine Furs" Sackville-
> Baggins for his own nefarious purposes?
A Zorag passing through the wood on business of his own stopped several
minutes and sniffed. "Dwagins!" he thought. "Well, what next, I have
heard of strange doings in this land, but I hae seldom heard of a dwagin
inquiring after a talking fox (talking foxes! bah...). There's
something mighty queer behind this."
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152263 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 05:18 |
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On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:16:54 -0500, John W. Kennedy wrote
> Stan Brown wrote:
{snip}
>> The Neanderthals did not die out, if I recall correctly. Through
>> interbreeding their genes live on in many humans today. I can't
>> recall where I read that, though.
>
> I /think/ the issue is still in doubt.
It is. It's a nice sounding theory, but there isn't really any evidence for
it.
---
Graham
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152264 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 06:13 |
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Graham Lockwood wrote:
> From "The Uruk-Hai" chapter of LotR:
[snipped physical descriptions of orcs]
What's interesting to me about the fox study is that the "dog-like"
properties had to be latent in the genes (the researchers didn't
add DNA, it was already there).
It's as if life forms have been handed a big stash of genetic material,
designed to adapt to a wide variety of conditions. With canine genes
under boreal forest wilderness conditions, you get wolves and coyotes.
But change the circumstances to sled harnesses and human domestication
in the Arctic and you get huskies and samoyeds.
Also I've read that in Britain there is a variety of bird whose
beak has adapted over the generations to a shape optimized for
punching holes in the lids of milk bottles left outside houses.
Dogs have been domesticated for roughly 10,000 years (according
to Desmond Morris), descended from jackals, wolves and coyotes.
Given the huge variety of sizes and shapes of domestic dogs,
it seems feasible that humans (and perhaps elves) could be also
be bred into the orc shapes (and dispositions) described, especially
if the First Age was 10 millennia or longer. Claws, fangs, long arms;
callous, merciless dispositions should all be feasible. The fossil
record shows that our teeth have grown smaller since we discovered
fire and began cooking our meat, making it softer and more chewable,
but if longer canines suddenly became a reproductive imperative
in some selective breeding program then it might not be very long
before we started looking more like saber-toothed tigers.
However, humans in effect *have* been bred by physical and social
conditions. The tall, thin Nilotic people are adapted to hot,
dry conditions (as well as basketball), whereas the pygmy shape
is optimized for dense tropical jungle.
Sean
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152265 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 06:18 |
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Dateline Tue, 18 Oct 2005 04:13:20 GMT from Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam>:
> What's interesting to me about the fox study is that the "dog-like"
> properties had to be latent in the genes (the researchers didn't
> add DNA, it was already there).
>
> It's as if life forms have been handed a big stash of genetic material,
> designed to adapt to a wide variety of conditions.
You might enjoy reading THE EXTENDED PHENOTYPE by Richard Dawkins.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152266 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 06:43 |
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Quoth "Taemon" <Taemon [at] zonnet.nl> in article
<3ribemFjosj9U1 [at] individual.net>:
> Mästerkatten wrote:
> > The descriptions you've gathered make me think of how
> > australopithecus, proconsul major etc often are depicted in
> > reconstructions. More human than apes, more animal-like than men.
> > Maybe orcs were the real ancestors of Edain. :)
> ROFL! What would Tolkien have thought of Neanderthal people? Surely
> he didn't believe in such a being?
Do you mean "didn't believe in Orcs" or "didn't believe in
Neanderthals"? If the former, I certainly agree: there's no chance
that Tolkien would have believed in them (not in the Primary World,
anyway :) ). If the latter, er, why _wouldn't_ Tolkien have believed
in them? (What exactly would it mean to "not believe in" a particular
extinct species, anyway?)
Personally, I've always connected Neanderthals with the Druedain for
some reason. I'm not sure if I had any good reason for that, or if it
just seemed like a somewhat natural fit. I have no idea whether
Tolkien had similar thoughts.
Steuard Jensen
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152267 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 06:48 |
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Stan Brown wrote:
> The Neanderthals did not die out, if I recall correctly. Through
> interbreeding their genes live on in many humans today. I can't
> recall where I read that, though.
It think it's clear that the European Neanderthals went extinct
because there is such an abrupt discontinuity in the European
fossil record between them and the Cro's. The transition is more
gradual in the Middle East, however.
Sean
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152268 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 06:54 |
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Quoth Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> in article
<MPG.1dbdfc011885d2d9989a19 [at] news.individual.net>:
> Dateline 17 Oct 2005 20:39:41 GMT from Mästerkatten :
> > I've always liked to think of the possibility that memories of
> > Neanderthals are the basis for the notion of trolls (or giants)...
I have no idea. In some ways, it's hard to think that our ancestors
wouldn't have preserved some hint of a memory of them. But I'm quite
ignorant of whatever research has been done on the longevity of oral
tradition. (I've heard thirdhand stories about some Aboriginal tribes
preserving stories of volcanic eruptions for many thousands of years,
but I have no idea what the ultimate source of that was.)
> The Neanderthals did not die out, if I recall correctly. Through
> interbreeding their genes live on in many humans today. I can't
> recall where I read that, though.
"Clan of the Cave Bear"? :)
I think that theory's popularity has had substantial ups and downs
over the years. I seem to recall headlines announcing genetic studies
that hinted "yes" and others announcing genetic studies that hinted
"no". There are a _lot_ of unanswered questions about the history of
human development and migration; it's a fascinating field. (In light
of the ongoing American "controversy" over evolution, perhaps I should
emphasize that "Did it happen at all?" is _not_ one of the questions
that scientists view as unsettled. :) )
Steuard Jensen
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152269 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 07:32 |
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Tamf Moo wrote:
> what i really want to know is if this has any significance for the
> talking fox. had it been bred by, say, Radagast, for intelligence? or by
> Saruman for reporting? or by Otho "Purveyor of Fine Furs" Sackville-
> Baggins for his own nefarious purposes?
Probably the fox community in Middle Earth, recking nothing of war
and wizardry, focussed on hunting rabbits and stealing chickens
from hobbits and Bree-landers.
I don't recall a talking fox in LOTR; perhaps you're thinking
of another classic story, _The Wind in the Willow_ which does have
a talking fox:
After so many weeks within walls, [Mr. Toad] found the wood strange
and unfriendly and inclined, he thought, to make fun of him...
An owl, swooping noiselessly towards him, brushed his shoulder
with its wing, making him jump with the horrid certainty that
it was a hand; then flitted off, moth-like, laughing its low
ho! ho! ho; which Toad thought in very poor taste.
Once he met a fox, who stopped, looked him up and down in
a sarcastic sort of way, and said, `Hullo, washerwoman!
Half a pair of socks and a pillow-case short this week!
Mind it doesn't occur again!' and swaggered off, sniggering.
Toad looked about for a stone to throw at him, but could not
succeed in finding one, which vexed him more than anything.
-- Kenneth Graham; _The Wind in the Willows_
> Tamf, who'd like a tame fox
See if the Russians will sell you one. Also, Irwin Rommel
("The Desert Fox") kept one as a mascot. What happened to the fox
after Rommel's demise is obscure.
However, foxes don't make the best pets. Extract from site:
http://www.foxes.org/urbanfox/part3.html
Here are a few of the major problems with owning a fox as a pet:
They smell as strong as a skunk in close quarters, and although it is
theoretically possible to have their scent glands removed, this is not
very healthy and will not eliminate the smell of their urine, which is
very powerful.
Foxes need a huge amount of space in which to run.
Foxes love to dig, and can easily dig out of a yard or through a sofa.
Foxes are at high risk to carry rabies. In many areas, there is no
approved rabies vaccine for foxes; even if you have papers proving your
fox has been vaccinated, some states will still have it destroyed and
tested if it bites someone.
Because foxes are at high risk, you MUST get it vaccinated. This can
prove very difficult. Veterinarians need a special license to treat
wildlife, which many don't have, because it's a high-risk, low-reward
proposition.
Lastly, it is very likely that a fox you own as a pet will be very
unhappy. Many wild animals become depressed when removed from their
natural habitat, and foxes are subject to depression as much as any
other animal.
Sean
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152270 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 07:57 |
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On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:13:20 -0500, Sean wrote
{snip}
> It's as if life forms have been handed a big stash of genetic material,
> designed to adapt to a wide variety of conditions. With canine genes
> under boreal forest wilderness conditions, you get wolves and coyotes.
> But change the circumstances to sled harnesses and human domestication
> in the Arctic and you get huskies and samoyeds.
{snip}
Some animals seem to be inherently more prone to variation than others. Dogs,
in particular, have been bred into a truly astounding variety of breeds, all
of them mutually-hybridable (if that's not a word, it should be!)(baring some
obvious physical problems like a male St. Bernard mating with a female
chihuahua). Cats, OTOH, all tend to look more or less like cats. Horses,
also, have comparatively little variation. Even zebras (baring their odd
color pattern) look almost identical to your average horse.
What seems to be the case with canines (AFAICT) is that wolves, etc. have
some genes that cause aggressive"wild animal" behavior not conducive to
domestication. These genes are so strong that they overwhelm lots of other
traits (fur color, ear pointiness, etc.). A comparable example might be
testosterone in humans. The presence of large amounts of testosterone causes
all sorts of physiological changes: muscle mass, fat distribution, brain
development. Estrogen has similarly far-reaching effects. Because wolves have
this gene that overwhelms other genes, those other genes are not so important
so those genes are able to "drift" in the wild, leading to a wide variation
in underlying genotype, with very little effect on the phenotype (and so no
evolutionary drive to weed them out). Once the "overwhelming" gene is bred
out, the underlying diversity of other genes is allowed to manifest its self.
Just my take on why the breeding experiment you mentioned turned out the way
it did.
Whether humans have such an underlying variation in our genotype that could
(fairly) easily be brought to the surface I don't know. Most interracial (or
whatever you want to call it) variations among humans tend to mainly involve
the skin, hair, general height and build, and some relatively minor
variations in facial features. Of course, if you knew nothing about canines
and someone showed you some pics of wolves, coyotes, and foxes and then told
you that they were going to breed them into dogs (and showed you some pics of
chihuahuas, St. Bernards, pugs, dobermans, dachshunds, bloodhounds, and
sheepdogs), you'd probably laugh at them. ;)
Another question would be how much Tolkien himself knew/believed about
evolution/breeding. Was he more of a Lamarkian (even if he didn't know the
term)? Lamark came up with a pre-Darwin theory of evolution that basically
involved the passing on to descendants of traits acquired in life. For
example, if you worked out really hard and got big muscles, then you would
have kids with bigger muscles. If you spent your life running a lot, then you
would have kids who were good at running.
---
Graham
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152271 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 08:02 |
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On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:32:12 -0500, Sean wrote
> Tamf Moo wrote:
>> what i really want to know is if this has any significance for the
>> talking fox. had it been bred by, say, Radagast, for intelligence? or by
>> Saruman for reporting? or by Otho "Purveyor of Fine Furs" Sackville-
>> Baggins for his own nefarious purposes?
{snip}
> I don't recall a talking fox in LOTR; perhaps you're thinking
> of another classic story, _The Wind in the Willow_ which does have
> a talking fox:
{snip}
"They set no watch; even Frodo feared no danger yet, for they were still in
the heart of the Shire. A few creatures came and looked at them when the fire
had died away. A fox passing through the wood on business of his own stopped
several minutes and sniffed.
"'Hobbits!' he thought. 'Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in
this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a
tree. Three of them! There's something mighty queer behind this.' He was
quite right, but he never found out any more about it."
-FotR, "Three is Compay"
---
Graham
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152273 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 08:27 |
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Stan Brown wrote:
> I don't believe there was any talking fox in LotR. There was a
> _thinking_ fox, but I don't think was part of the original Red Book
> of Westmarch. That was Frodo's memoir, after all, and there's no way
> he could have known the fox's thoughts. (I think pretty much
> everything else in LotR was experienced either by Frodo himself or by
> others who would have shared their reminiscences with him.)
>
> Probably the "thinking fox" was added by some scribe or translator
> over the centuries, to make the story more appealing to younger
> readers.
i've often suspected that the fox played a pivotal role in the original
narrative, but was later written out by anti-fox racists (except for
that one passage, which they overlooked).
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152275 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 09:10 |
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On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:27:14 -0500, Count Menelvagor wrote
(in article <1129616834.601250.161920 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):
>
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
>> I don't believe there was any talking fox in LotR. There was a
>> _thinking_ fox, but I don't think was part of the original Red Book
>> of Westmarch. That was Frodo's memoir, after all, and there's no way
>> he could have known the fox's thoughts. (I think pretty much
>> everything else in LotR was experienced either by Frodo himself or by
>> others who would have shared their reminiscences with him.)
>>
>> Probably the "thinking fox" was added by some scribe or translator
>> over the centuries, to make the story more appealing to younger
>> readers.
>
> i've often suspected that the fox played a pivotal role in the original
> narrative, but was later written out by anti-fox racists (except for
> that one passage, which they overlooked).
I'm convinced the Fox was a spy of Radagasts sent out to spy out "Shire"
prior to his arrival as dispatched by Saruman.
---
Graham
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152278 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 10:23 |
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Mästerkatten wrote:
> I've always liked to think of the possibility that memories of
> Neanderthals are the basis for the notion of trolls (or giants) in
> European folk lore. After all, if you count (tale-telling)
> generations they seem to have died out not that long ago - we just
> missed them! But I don't have much knowledge about how the fauna of
> folk lore tales developed.
To be sure, they looked quite like us (or we like them, I'd have to
say). They were stronger and had a flatter forehead than most of us,
but if you met one on the streets, you wouldn't look twice.
T.
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152279 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 10:30 |
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Steuard Jensen wrote:
> Quoth "Taemon" <Taemon [at] zonnet.nl> in article
> <3ribemFjosj9U1 [at] individual.net>:
>> ROFL! What would Tolkien have thought of Neanderthal people? Surely
>> he didn't believe in such a being?
> Do you mean "didn't believe in Orcs" or "didn't believe in
> Neanderthals"? If the former, I certainly agree: there's no chance
> that Tolkien would have believed in them (not in the Primary World,
> anyway :) ). If the latter, er, why _wouldn't_ Tolkien have
> believed
> in them? (What exactly would it mean to "not believe in" a
> particular
> extinct species, anyway?)
Well, there are people who don't believe in dinosaurs. Seriously!
Because it isn't in the bible. And Tolkien surely believed in
creationism, didn't he? Neanderthals do not fit in that scenario.
To be sure, I don't know if he did or not. I just think so because of
his fervent religious beliefs.
T.
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152280 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 10:39 |
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Graham Lockwood wrote:
> Lamark came up with a pre-Darwin theory of evolution
> that basically involved the passing on to descendants of traits
> acquired in life.
To be sure, that wasn't Lamarck. He was on the right track. It's bad
luck for him that his name became connected with an erroneous way of
thinking. (Of course, they didn't know about genes in that time.)
T.
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152284 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 11:57 |
|
"Taemon" <Taemon [at] zonnet.nl> wrote in news:3rjpnrFjn08bU1 [at] individual.net:
> Mästerkatten wrote:
>
>> I've always liked to think of the possibility that memories of
>> Neanderthals are the basis for the notion of trolls (or giants) in
>> European folk lore. After all, if you count (tale-telling)
>> generations they seem to have died out not that long ago - we just
>> missed them! But I don't have much knowledge about how the fauna of
>> folk lore tales developed.
>
> To be sure, they looked quite like us (or we like them, I'd have to
> say). They were stronger and had a flatter forehead than most of us,
> but if you met one on the streets, you wouldn't look twice.
LOL!
I recall an exhibition at the Danish national museum in Copenhagen, where
they had made a full-scale reconstruction of a Neanderthal man and
dressed him in a pair of jeans, a cotton shirt and a jeans jacket. It was
a fascinating thing to see.
Contrary to what they hinted, though, I *would* have noticed him in the
subway. But I wouldn't have thought "what a cave man", he wasn't that
alien.
Still, when different ethnic groups meet, you tend to focus more on the
differences than on the similarities - especially when there is conflict.
I can imagine that this also happened when our ancestors and the
Neanderthals interacted. Of course, that doesn't prove that "troll" or
"jotun" is a caricature of the Neanderthal.
--
Mästerkatten
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152285 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 13:16 |
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Graham Lockwood wrote:
> > I don't recall a talking fox in LOTR
> "'Hobbits!' he thought...
Thanks Graham; although I knew about that fox, as has already been
noted by others, this is a thinking fox, not necessarily a talking one.
He probably thought in some vulpine language which Tolkien has
rendered into English, and besides, he was in a hurry to meet
his lady, who can be described like this:
Well, she's fashionably lean,
And she's fashionably late
She'll never wreck a scene,
She'll never break a date
But she's no drag,
Just watch the way she walks
She's a * * fifteenth century fox (by Shire reckoning)
She's a fifteenth century fox
No tears, no fears, No ruined years,
No clocks
She's a fifteenth century fox, oh yeah
She's the queen of cool,
And she's the lady who waits
Since her mind left school,
It never hesitates
She won't waste time,
On elementary talk (about hobbits)
'Cause she's a fifteenth century fox, oh yeah
She's a fifteenth century fox
Sean
ps. Here in Vancouver we have FM radio station CFOX. As they are
constantly reminding us, "The Fox rocks!"
-- (song lyrics by Jim Morrison and Robby Krieger of The Doors)
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| Re: Breeding orcs and other baddies [message #152286 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 13:21 |
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Taemon wrote:
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
>
>> Quoth "Taemon" <Taemon [at] zonnet.nl> in article
>> <3ribemFjosj9U1 [at] individual.net>:
>>> ROFL! What would Tolkien have thought of Neanderthal people? Surely
>>> he didn't believe in such a being?
>> Do you mean "didn't believe in Orcs" or "didn't believe in
>> Neanderthals"? If the former, I certainly agree: there's no chance
>> that Tolkien would have believed in them (not in the Primary World,
>> anyway :) ). If the latter, er, why _wouldn't_ Tolkien have
>> believed
>> in them? (What exactly would it mean to "not believe in" a
>> particular
>> extinct species, anyway?)
>
> Well, there are people who don't believe in dinosaurs. Seriously!
> Because it isn't in the bible. And Tolkien surely believed in
> creationism, didn't he? Neanderthals do not fit in that scenario.
>
> To be sure, I don't know if he did or not. I just think so because of
> his fervent religious beliefs.
>
> T.
I'd say you'd be wrong. He was a Roman Catholic, not a Southern Baptist.
He was the one C.S. Lewis claimed in "Surprised by Joy" had told him that
myth was more than "Lies breathed through silver"; Tolkien himself refers
to this conversation in "Tree and Leaf: On Fairy Stories", pg 56.
In short, Tolkien probably regarded Genesis as True Myth - that is, a
mythological story which contained a major part of the truth of the human
condition; he would thus have had no objection ot Neo-Darwinism, much less
to the thought that there had been other human species besides H. Sap.
And yes, I've always thought that he made H. Neandertalensis the Druedain.
It fits the context.
Wesley Parish
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
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