| Source of Glofindel's prophecy regarding the fall of the Lord of the Nazgul [message #152188] |
So, 16 Oktober 2005 22:04 |
|
Does anyone know of an earlier source (Old English, Old German, etc.)
from which Tolkien may have derived the notion that was incorporated
into Glorfindel's prophecy that the Lord of the Nazgul would not fall
by the hand of a Man (thus falling by the hands of a Woman and a
Hobbit)?
Worded another way, is this idea truly Tolkien's, or did he derive it
from another story.
Thanks!
|
|
|
| Re: Source of Glofindel's prophecy regarding the fall of the Lord of the Nazgul [message #152194 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 00:09 |
|
wyrmwood [at] localnet.com wrote in
news:1129493076.491966.56140 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>
> Does anyone know of an earlier source (Old English, Old German,
> etc.) from which Tolkien may have derived the notion that was
> incorporated into Glorfindel's prophecy that the Lord of the
> Nazgul would not fall by the hand of a Man (thus falling by the
> hands of a Woman and a Hobbit)?
>
> Worded another way, is this idea truly Tolkien's, or did he derive
> it from another story.
>
> Thanks!
Was it derived from the prophecy that Macbeth would fall to none of
woman-born? That particular prophecy was certainly known to JRRT,
with the storming of Isengard being his self-admitted attempt to
one-up Shakespeare's Birnam Wood episode.
Birnam Wood and Macbeth
http://www.visitdunkeld.com/birnam-wood.htm
Act V, Scene 3
In a room in the castle of Dunsinane:
Macbeth tells the doctor that he is not afraid of an invasion,
because of the witches´ predictions that, 1) No man born of woman
can kill him and 2) the woods must march before he is defeated.
--
Cheers, ymt.
|
|
|
| Re: Source of Glofindel's prophecy regarding the fall of the Lord of the Nazgul [message #152213 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 17:08 |
|
In Shakespeare's MacBeth, someone prophesizes that MacBeth could not be
killed by any man of woman born. He was killed by a guy who was cut from his
mother's womb, sort of like a medieval Cesarean section.
Granted, it's not the mythological source you may be looking for, but Bill
Shakespeare was a wonder for stealing ideas from any number of sources,
including old myths (and, as has been suggested, his competitors. But that's
another discussion.) MacBeth certainly had its origins in both history and
mythology.
Todd
<wyrmwood [at] localnet.com> wrote in message
news:1129493076.491966.56140 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Does anyone know of an earlier source (Old English, Old German, etc.)
> from which Tolkien may have derived the notion that was incorporated
> into Glorfindel's prophecy that the Lord of the Nazgul would not fall
> by the hand of a Man (thus falling by the hands of a Woman and a
> Hobbit)?
>
> Worded another way, is this idea truly Tolkien's, or did he derive it
> from another story.
>
> Thanks!
>
|
|
|
| Re: Source of Glofindel's prophecy regarding the fall of the Lord of the Nazgul [message #152223 ] |
Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 18:36 |
|
Raker wrote:
> He was killed by a guy who was cut from
> his mother's womb, sort of like a medieval Cesarean section.
Think about that statement... Why do you think it's called a Caesarian
section? (Hint: Caesar camme long before the medieval period). :-)
--
derek
|
|
|
| Re: Source of Glofindel's prophecy regarding the fall of the Lord of the Nazgul [message #152288 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 14:11 |
|
I looked into that. The legend had it that Julius Caesar was born that way,
but there's no historical evidence for it. However, it was Roman custom to
cut a child from the womb of a dying mother so that at least the child could
be saved.
Caesearean sections, of course, were developed later so that both lives
could be saved.
Mythologically, I have no evidence to suggest that children cut from the
womb of a dead woman were not considered born of woman. Certainly, were they
male, they would still be considered men. My curiosity was where Shakespeare
got the idea. Perhaps it was from what he knew of Roman history. Perhaps it
was something German, Anglo, or even Celtic in origin.
Todd
"Derek Broughton" <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:kh0d23-tv9.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca...
> Raker wrote:
>
>> He was killed by a guy who was cut from
>> his mother's womb, sort of like a medieval Cesarean section.
>
> Think about that statement... Why do you think it's called a Caesarian
> section? (Hint: Caesar camme long before the medieval period). :-)
>
> --
> derek
|
|
|
| Re: Source of Glofindel's prophecy regarding the fall of the Lord of the Nazgul [message #152291 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 15:20 |
|
Raker wrote:
> I looked into that. The legend had it that Julius Caesar was born that
> way, but there's no historical evidence for it.
I agree - but the legend predates Shakespeare. Now I'm going to have to
check his "Julius Caesar"...
> However, it was Roman
> custom to cut a child from the womb of a dying mother so that at least the
> child could be saved.
>
> Caesearean sections, of course, were developed later so that both lives
> could be saved.
>
> Mythologically, I have no evidence to suggest that children cut from the
> womb of a dead woman were not considered born of woman.
Mythologically isn't really important. It's just a play on words - like
many a Shakespearism. Under the strict terms of the wording, MacBeth was
killed by someone who was never actually "born".
--
derek
|
|
|
| Re: Source of Glofindel's prophecy regarding the fall of the Lord of the Nazgul [message #152321 ] |
Di, 18 Oktober 2005 21:34 |
|
"Derek Broughton" <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:0e9f23-60d.ln1 [at] news.pointerstop.ca...
> Raker wrote:
>
>> I looked into that. The legend had it that Julius Caesar was born that
>> way, but there's no historical evidence for it.
>
> I agree - but the legend predates Shakespeare. Now I'm going to have to
> check his "Julius Caesar"...
>
>> However, it was Roman
>> custom to cut a child from the womb of a dying mother so that at least
>> the
>> child could be saved.
>>
>> Caesearean sections, of course, were developed later so that both lives
>> could be saved.
>>
>> Mythologically, I have no evidence to suggest that children cut from the
>> womb of a dead woman were not considered born of woman.
>
> Mythologically isn't really important. It's just a play on words - like
> many a Shakespearism. Under the strict terms of the wording, MacBeth was
> killed by someone who was never actually "born".
I agree. However, the initial question was in relation to Glorfindel's
prediction about the Nazgul king, who supposedly could not be slain by a
man. There's some similarities, of course, but they're not identical. And I
was wondering if perhaps Shakespeare had some other origin for that line
that might be closer in meaning to the Tolkien line than what we've
discussed of Roman history and later medical practice.
Todd
|
|
|
