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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Good moments in the Bakshi film
Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152187] So, 16 Oktober 2005 21:04
Sean  
Lately I bought a VHS copy of this animated version at a thrift store;
I hadn't viewed it since 1978. It's hard to believe it's been almost
30 years... I have vivid memories of the film, and viewing it now
it's exactly as I remember it; as least visually.

There are plenty of web sites exploring the many flaws in Bakshi's
interpretation, such as:
http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/bakshi/bakshi.htm

....but this time I wanted to see the movie watching for its good
points. One I liked is the scene where Frodo and his friends hide
from the Nazgul.

They're just setting out on their journey, crossing what looks like
a swinging bridge as the musical accompaniment plays a cheerful
traveling tune. Then horse's hoofs are heard. The emotional mood
swiftly changes several times as the hobbits react to the sound.
These changes in mood are conveyed as much by the music as by
the characters' words and expressions.

In fact, really paying attention to the music in this scene for
the first time I came to think it was skillfully done, and perhaps
deserves more credit than is usually allowed in the typically
severe criticisms of the film. It reminds me of Wagner's leitmotifs
in the _Ring_ opera cycle which can change quite rapidly as
the drama develops.

The hobbits leave the road, and at first there's a silence
broken only by bird calls and other natural forest sounds.

Then as the Dark Rider approaches the feeling of threat is conveyed
by a complex progression in the music, especially long dissonant notes
on the horns. (In _Gotterdaemerung_ Wagner uses dissonant versions
of motifs that first appear earlier in the opera cycle to convey
the feeling that things have become corrupted). There's also a brief
"rusty hinge" kind of mechanical screech like something from
the _Matrix_ movies.

The dramatically effective moments are often brief and subtle,
(and perhaps too few) but I feel well crafted. Does anyone else
have this impression? If so what scenes did you like?

Sean
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152225 ] Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 19:23
Henriette  
Sean schreef:

> Lately I bought a VHS copy of this animated version at a thrift store;
> I hadn't viewed it since 1978. (snip)
> ...but this time I wanted to see the movie watching for its good
> points. One I liked is the scene where Frodo and his friends hide
> from the Nazgul.

I never saw the film, but recently saw the DVD (thanks, Wildie;-)and
this scene ofcourse looked awfully familiar. Peter Jackson consciously
or subconsciously made an exact copy of it!
>
As for your interesting comments on the music, I hadn't noticed it, but
I will pay attention next time I watch it (which I will. I thought the
DVD quite amusing, but ofcourse without any of the depth of the Book).

Henriette
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152258 ] Di, 18 Oktober 2005 03:14
Max_TMP  
On 17 Oct 2005 10:23:33 -0700, "Henriette" <heldenib [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Sean schreef:
>
>> Lately I bought a VHS copy of this animated version at a thrift store;
>> I hadn't viewed it since 1978. (snip)
>> ...but this time I wanted to see the movie watching for its good
>> points. One I liked is the scene where Frodo and his friends hide
>> from the Nazgul.
>
>I never saw the film, but recently saw the DVD (thanks, Wildie;-)and
>this scene ofcourse looked awfully familiar. Peter Jackson consciously
>or subconsciously made an exact copy of it!
>>
>As for your interesting comments on the music, I hadn't noticed it, but
>I will pay attention next time I watch it (which I will. I thought the
>DVD quite amusing, but ofcourse without any of the depth of the Book).
>

PJ admitted that he copied the Proudfoot scene at Bilbos birthday
party.

----------------
-sig-

"Don't call me a mindless philosopher"
Max Gaming and Brown Paper kite site
http://www.users.on.net/~maxtmp
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152296 ] Di, 18 Oktober 2005 17:46
zip  
"Max_TMP" <h [at] tespam.here> wrote...

> PJ admitted that he copied the Proudfoot scene at Bilbos birthday
> party.

I remember Bakshi complaining that PJ hadn't contacted him even once during
production (or pre-production) of the films. Apparantly Bakshi saw this as
an insult... However, I would suggest that Bakshi recognise how closely some
of the films sequences come to his animated/rotoscoped version, and take
that as something of a sign of recognition in and of itself. It seems clear
that certain aspects of his animated/rotoscoped version most certainly
informed PJ in his work to some degree.

And the fact that both versions of LOTR are based on the same source
material does not mean to say that the visual output would be exactly the
same... I think there is a definate Bakshi to PJ transfer of imagery
happening at certain points.

Particularly the one with the Ringwraith mentioned previously.

-Paul.
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152305 ] Di, 18 Oktober 2005 19:41
Henriette  
Zip schreef:

> "Max_TMP" <h [at] tespam.here> wrote...
>
> > PJ admitted that he copied the Proudfoot scene at Bilbos birthday
> > party.

Well, at least that's honest to admit it, even though it is very
obvious...

(snip)
>
> And the fact that both versions of LOTR are based on the same source
> material does not mean to say that the visual output would be exactly the
> same... I think there is a definate Bakshi to PJ transfer of imagery
> happening at certain points.
>
> Particularly the one with the Ringwraith mentioned previously.

I'm sure that scene could have been filmed in several different ways,
and PJ's crew misses out on a chance here for some creativity. (They
could have asked Tamf Moo. I'm sure she would think up several very
different representations of this scene within a few minutes).

Henriette
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152311 ] Di, 18 Oktober 2005 20:47
stephen  
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Henriette <heldenib [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> Zip schreef:

>> "Max_TMP" <h [at] tespam.here> wrote...
>>
>> > PJ admitted that he copied the Proudfoot scene at Bilbos birthday
>> > party.

> Well, at least that's honest to admit it, even though it is very
> obvious...

> (snip)
>>
>> And the fact that both versions of LOTR are based on the same source
>> material does not mean to say that the visual output would be exactly the
>> same... I think there is a definate Bakshi to PJ transfer of imagery
>> happening at certain points.
>>
>> Particularly the one with the Ringwraith mentioned previously.

> I'm sure that scene could have been filmed in several different ways,
> and PJ's crew misses out on a chance here for some creativity. (They
> could have asked Tamf Moo. I'm sure she would think up several very
> different representations of this scene within a few minutes).

According to the documentaries, the scene was based
on a John Howe painting. I do not think John Howe
is old enough for his work to have inspired Bakshi's
film, but it is quite possible he was inspired
by the Bakshi film.

Stephen
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152336 ] Di, 18 Oktober 2005 22:32
Tamf Moo  
Henriette spoke softly, shivering:

> > Particularly the one with the Ringwraith mentioned previously.
>
> I'm sure that scene could have been filmed in several different ways,
> and PJ's crew misses out on a chance here for some creativity. (They
> could have asked Tamf Moo. I'm sure she would think up several very
> different representations of this scene within a few minutes).

mmm... thanks for having faith... instead of the bugs, i think i might
have chosen a more earthy theme. say, with CHOKLIT. the nazgul took a
deep breath and saw all the little halflings as bars of CHOKLIT... but
wait, now i'm copying Madagascar.

still, i hate that scene and i'm sure it could have been done better!
Bakshi probably did!

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

Naturally I worry about mobs with torches and pitchforks showing up at
my door some stormy night to let me know they're uncomfortable with my
little ways. Who doesn't? (Susans McCarthy)
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152379 ] Mi, 19 Oktober 2005 18:30
Jens Kilian  
A propos - this might be of interest to readers in or near Germany:

The Bakshi _LotR_ will be shown tonight (Oct. 20th, 00:35) on ARD.
http://www.ard-digital.de/ipg/detail.php?eventID=46350460

--
mailto:jjk [at] acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
http://del.icio.us/jjk
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152381 ] Mi, 19 Oktober 2005 18:49
Henriette  
Jens Kilian schreef:

> A propos - this might be of interest to readers in or near Germany:
>
> The Bakshi _LotR_ will be shown tonight (Oct. 20th, 00:35) on ARD.
> http://www.ard-digital.de/ipg/detail.php?eventID=46350460
>
> --
> mailto:jjk [at] acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
> http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
> http://del.icio.us/jjk

Thanks for the warning! The time may be a bit peculiar for readers in
or near Germany, unfortunately. And how about this remark about Gollum:
"Sie nehmen ihn gefangen, da er den Weg nach Mordor kennt"...!

Henriette
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152391 ] Mi, 19 Oktober 2005 21:44
Jens Kilian  
"Henriette" <heldenib [at] hotmail.com> writes:
> "Sie nehmen ihn gefangen, da er den Weg nach Mordor kennt"...!

"They [ie Frodo & Sam] capture him because he knows the way to Mordor."

--
mailto:jjk [at] acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
http://del.icio.us/jjk
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152432 ] Do, 20 Oktober 2005 07:40
Sean  
Henriette wrote:

> And how about this remark about Gollum:
> "Sie nehmen ihn gefangen, da er den Weg nach Mordor kennt"...!

Google translates this as:
"They take it prisoner, since it knows the way after Mordor."

Sean, who knows very little German, except that Tannhauser
sings, "Nach Rom" ("To Rome!")

ps. "kennt" ("knows") is like the archaic English word "ken", as in:

D'ye ken John Peel with his coat so gray,
D'ye ken John Peel at the break of day,
D'ye ken John Peel when he's far away,
With his hounds and his horn in the morning.
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152444 ] Do, 20 Oktober 2005 09:19
Henriette  
Jens Kilian schreef:

> "Henriette" <heldenib [at] hotmail.com> writes:
> > "Sie nehmen ihn gefangen, da er den Weg nach Mordor kennt"...!
>
> "They [ie Frodo & Sam] capture him because he knows the way to Mordor."

I didn't quote this because I don't know what it means, I quote it
because I only know it too well! and it is not what happens in The
Book!

Next thing you know is Arwen saves Frodo at the Ford of Bruinen, or
Gimli marries Eowyn...

Henriette
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152445 ] Do, 20 Oktober 2005 09:33
Henriette  
Sean schreef:

> Henriette wrote:
>
> > And how about this remark about Gollum:
> > "Sie nehmen ihn gefangen, da er den Weg nach Mordor kennt"...!
>
> Google translates this as:
> "They take it prisoner, since it knows the way after Mordor."

"They take it prisoner, since it knows the way after Mordor." "Balrogs
have wings."
>
> Sean, who knows very little German, except that Tannhauser
> sings, "Nach Rom" ("To Rome!")
>
> ps. "kennt" ("knows") is like the archaic English word "ken", as in:
>
> D'ye ken John Peel with his coat so gray,
> D'ye ken John Peel at the break of day,
> D'ye ken John Peel when he's far away,
> With his hounds and his horn in the morning.

Nice;-) To Know can be translated by "Kennen" in Dutch as well.
Frisian: "Kenne", so we are definitely dealing with a Root here;-)

Henriette
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152446 ] Do, 20 Oktober 2005 09:42
Henriette  
stephen [at] nomail.com schreef:

> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Henriette <heldenib [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Zip schreef:
> >
> > I'm sure that scene could have been filmed in several different ways,
> > and PJ's crew misses out on a chance here for some creativity. (They
> > could have asked Tamf Moo. I'm sure she would think up several very
> > different representations of this scene within a few minutes).
>
> According to the documentaries, the scene was based
> on a John Howe painting. I do not think John Howe
> is old enough for his work to have inspired Bakshi's
> film, but it is quite possible he was inspired
> by the Bakshi film.
>
I don't know the painting, but I know a lot of wonderful (and less
wonderful...) art has been inspired by LOTR. Actually I started reading
LOTR because I saw a mysterious painting of some funny black creatures
running across the grass, and a friend said I should read the Book it
was inspired by;-)

Henriette
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #152568 ] Sa, 22 Oktober 2005 01:14
Een Wilde Ier  
Henriette wrote:
> Sean schreef:
>
>
>>Lately I bought a VHS copy of this animated version at a thrift store;
>>I hadn't viewed it since 1978. (snip)
>>...but this time I wanted to see the movie watching for its good
>>points. One I liked is the scene where Frodo and his friends hide
>>from the Nazgul.
>
>
> I never saw the film, but recently saw the DVD (thanks, Wildie;-)

U r wlcm ;-)

> and
> this scene ofcourse looked awfully familiar. Peter Jackson consciously
> or subconsciously made an exact copy of it!

Yes, he did copy some shots all right. Actually, the Bakshi film is
superior in some respects to the Jackson one. The Orcs were _great_

> As for your interesting comments on the music, I hadn't noticed it, but
> I will pay attention next time I watch it (which I will. I thought the
> DVD quite amusing, but ofcourse without any of the depth of the Book).

And you did love a certain song ;-)
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #154301 ] Sa, 22 Oktober 2005 17:27
Henriette  
Een Wilde Ier schreef:

> Henriette wrote:
>
> > As for your interesting comments on the music, I hadn't noticed it, but
> > I will pay attention next time I watch it (which I will. I thought the
> > DVD quite amusing, but ofcourse without any of the depth of the Book).
>
> And you did love a certain song ;-)

You have such an unfailing memory! I forgot the Mordor song, it is
brilliant. It doesn't happen very often I hear a song for the first
time and want to hear it five times in a row, so Sean is probably right
about the music. I just thought the song ought not to be sung by such
wonderful voices. Orcs should croak!

HB
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #154326 ] So, 23 Oktober 2005 00:47
Een Wilde Ier  
Henriette wrote:
> Een Wilde Ier schreef:
>
>
>>Henriette wrote:
>>
>>
>>>As for your interesting comments on the music, I hadn't noticed it, but
>>>I will pay attention next time I watch it (which I will. I thought the
>>>DVD quite amusing, but ofcourse without any of the depth of the Book).
>>
>>And you did love a certain song ;-)
>
>
> You have such an unfailing memory! I forgot the Mordor song, it is
> brilliant. It doesn't happen very often I hear a song for the first
> time and want to hear it five times in a row,

Well, three I seem to remember ;-)

> so Sean is probably right
> about the music. I just thought the song ought not to be sung by such
> wonderful voices. Orcs should croak!

But they do such a wonderful job! Particularly given that their masters,
Aruman and Saruman are apparently going senile, having given the Orcs
the speech clearly meant instead for the Dunlendings ;-)
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #154460 ] Mo, 24 Oktober 2005 19:16
Henriette  
Een Wilde Ier schreef:

> Henriette wrote:
> >
> > (snip) I forgot the Mordor song, it is
> > brilliant. It doesn't happen very often I hear a song for the first
> > time and want to hear it five times in a row,
>
> Well, three I seem to remember ;-)

Really? Dry Your Tears Afrika? Another one?
>
> > so Sean is probably right
> > about the music. I just thought the song ought not to be sung by such
> > wonderful voices. Orcs should croak!
>
> But they do such a wonderful job! Particularly given that their masters,
> Aruman and Saruman are apparently going senile, having given the Orcs
> the speech clearly meant instead for the Dunlendings ;-)

Bagronk the Happy Orc would have loved it, always standing up for
Orc-rights!

HB
Re: Good moments in the Bakshi film [message #168240 ] Di, 15 November 2005 16:11
Me  
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote:
> The dramatically effective moments are often brief and subtle,
> (and perhaps too few) but I feel well crafted. Does anyone else
> have this impression? If so what scenes did you like?

I know this is almost a month late, but what I wanted to
say was that I liked the "Saruman of many colours" scene, where
Saruman declares his new title and overwhelms Gandalf with the
many colours emanating from his body like shining blobs.

Well, that description makes it sound less appealing than
it is. I think Bakshi did better than Jackson on that scene.

--Jamie. (Celebrating (?) 20 years on Usenet!)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
[at] csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
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